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(Patheos)   "The Bible Belt is collapsing," Russell Moore, president of the SBC's Religious Liberty Commission. "We are no longer the moral majority. We are a prophetic minority"   (patheos.com) divider line 281
    More: Interesting, Russell Moore, Religious Liberty Commission, Southern Baptist Convention, Liberty Commission, White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, Ralph Reed, Christian Coalition, liberty  
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6786 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Aug 2013 at 3:01 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-21 09:37:04 PM  

SanjiSasuke: the money is in the banana stand: SanjiSasuke: I'm bored so why not.
"So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thoughts it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"  -Richard Dawkins

Sure. Yes. If someone believes in fairies, why not? Because it seems silly to you? Your beliefs may be silly to me. Why impede the beliefs of others by forcing your own upon them? Its like a person who doesn't like baseball telling everyone to stop watching baseball, because the infield fly rule is silly, or he finds it boring. Don't like baseball/religion? Don't watch/practice it. Same for all his "everyone is a little atheist" stuff. Sure, I don't like hockey, but I still like baseball.

/not Christian, nor Abrahamic

However this line of thinking cannot be applied to everything. Because someone believes that having a sexual relationship with a child is ok does not make it right. When things enter into the "moral" territory, things get real tricky. There are no real compelling arguments on either side when it comes to laws being influenced by morality. Some may say that a person who is 16 should be old enough to drink because they can drive. Some may think that children at any age can drink. Some think this shouldn't be a law at all but the discretion of the parents. What in this case is "right"?

But I (and I would hope normal people) don't think allowing someone to be religious is 'wrong'. In the case shown there IS scientific evidence to go off of. From that a group of people can decide, should they wait until the brain is done developing or until 18/16 because that is what age we figure they should be able to decide for themselves.


AMEN! Sunday school is one of the absolute best ways to make children apathetic to Christianity. I knew the Bible stories front to back; legend and myth galore. I got out into the world, thinking I was saved. Then I saw the world as it really was, the struggle of the "publicans and sinners" as it were. Gay, poor, homeless, sick; the very people Christ commanded me to love and help. I was told to loathe them and that their misfortune was of their own doing. When my mom says "queer" you can feel the seething rage hissing out between the cracks of her teeth. (Thank God my dad is pretty middle-of-the-road.)

It would have been better off, by Christ's own words, for me to have not known about it all, so that I could come to understanding/ enlightenment on my own terms. (Of course, religions are all trying to do the same thing, but it all must be on your own terms.) That's where I have a lot of respect for the Amish. If their children leave, they aren't constantly shamed and guilt-tripped into returning. It's a given that parents will let their children chose, and they will live with it and accept it. They live by faith in that their beliefs are true, and that is exactly what Christ taught; not using manipulation of parent-child relationships to force beliefs. I've lived through faithless parenting, going to a Christian school, and I was way too smart and burnt out for their bullshiat. I finally stopped attending church after I heard the lay-preacher claim Obama was a Muslim.

I'm now an utterly lost individual. I'm reading the Fourth Way for crying out loud, working on my own theories about psychological and psychosomatic responses to faith and religion. I hope dearly I can find what I lost. Given the choice of returning to the flock to gain happiness and living as I am now, I cannot possibly recon the differences between fundamentalist beliefs and what Christ actually taught. It simply is not there. By their own admission Christ's teachings are so simple that a child can understand, yet their entire beliefs are founded on centuries of manipulative dogma which are not at all reconcilable to His teachings.

That's why I am a far-left commie. Because I am utterly convinced that's what Jesus instructed.
 
2013-08-21 09:43:53 PM  

AirForceVet: Solkar: I still go to a Southern Baptist church, but I couldn't agree more with the above statements. The biggest thing I like about my current pastor, though, is that he keeps politics out of his sermons. That's not common anymore.

I couldn't participate to an organization that actively supports discrimination against GLBTs or anyone else.

But that's just me.


There are lists of gay-friendly churches out there, and some denominations of Christianity (almost exclusively Protestant as far as I know) are known for being more accepting of gays than others.  If it's an important issue for you, it's worth taking a little time to look around for one.

GayChurch.org springs to mind.  For some reason they don't like it when I try to link to them, so sorry for the inconvenience, but you can cut-and-paste into your browser bar.  You might also try your local LBGTQ center or website, see if they have a list of churches they've worked with or otherwise vetted.

Or ask around the LBGTQ community.  You might be surprised at how many religious LBGTQ folks there are.

You might also want to search on the term "the religious left" if other issues besides treatments of gay folks concern you.

/Despite many efforts to paint all religious folks as politically and socially conservative, and all socially and politically liberal folks as atheists, that is far from true.
 
2013-08-21 10:12:49 PM  

Modern Apothecary PharmD: clancifer: He misspelled 'pathetic'.
I don't know, they're still the majority in Methamphetamine production. That's gotta be worth something, right? Must be awesome to be a dentist in the bible belt.


Not when they're short on money and want to barter squirrel, possum, and moonshine for fillings.  And if you're dealing with the people in Appalachia who do the whole poisonous snake thing...
 
2013-08-21 10:21:43 PM  
As we learned in Humanities, history is really just a progression of more and more information becoming accessible to the commoners. Used to be, the bible was limited to the clergy, through limitation of education. once the printing press came into being, education and sharing of information increased at a geometric rate. Along with that came the ability of people to read the bible and decide what it meant for their selves. Suddenly, the consequences were never the same. Along with the ability to get educated naturally came the ability to make critical judgements and decisions. Throughout history, the church has ever fought with science, as science has unceasingly eroded at its credibility and the assumed importance of the clergy. Most people don't get past Genesis before they realize, "WTF? I'm worshiping a deity with less responsibility than the average babysitter?!?"

...and put away their childish things, right in the same place they put Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
 
2013-08-21 11:28:55 PM  
the money is in the banana stand:
Lol. Okay dude. Right-Wingers sure, but Extreme Right-Wingers no. I live here in Houston and while there are plenty of conservative folks and some questionably batty people, it is very rare to encounter someone who is an "extreme right-winger" or fanatic. I interact with a lot of people and types of people on a daily basis. More often than not, the extent to the "extreme right-wingers" here are old people with signs protesting abortion clinics peacefully. This is far different than the Fark perception of hillbilly preachers with guns burning crosses in front yards riding around pick-up trucks worshiping a Rush Limbaugh idol.

Howdy neighbor. I live in NW Houston by Lonestar. The Cy-Fair area community groups are infested with whackadoodle Cruz supporters. His organization has done an exceptional job of seeding these "True Believers" into virtually all nooks and crannies of public life. They are the new Birchers, and they are delusional.
 
2013-08-22 12:31:18 AM  
PocketfullaSass:  So an atheist, a buddhist and a gay kid walk into a church....

Sounds like an old joke, but this is my family (Me being the atheist in the equation).  We all joined the local UU church and love it to pieces.  It's all about how to love and how to live now, today. Just beautiful people.  If a year ago you would've told me I'd belong to any church, I would have laughed to bust a gut. I even have friends who are pagans now....lol.

For those who feel spiritually betwixt and between, or those who aren't spiritual at all but are looking for a lost sense of community, I highly recommend checking out you local UU Fellowship.


The UU Society in Northampton, which I used to attend had a lot of issues with their new minister, who many felt was too theist in her sermons.

It is a place where atheists who still ponder on philosophical questions about the origin and the basis for much of our cultural mores come from. It is a place where Episcopalians and Jews and Buddhists can hash out arguments on Scripture AND the Dharma. It is a place where folks can compare and contrast their own experiences, and share, and find that despite coming from disparate faith traditions, that you can all find common ground, and that is the real strength I find. Not in a splintered view, but a view from many perspectives, and finding strength in that, and commonality of humanity.

My favorite UU story, was one a divinity student who was getting ready to take her finals told. Relatively early in her training, the UU Society she was involved announced their annual Atheist vs Theists softball game. She told of her own inner conflict. Despite being in a divinity program, she was still unsure which side she would fall on. She struggled with the question all week, and on the next Sunday she discovered something. The minister looked at the room as folks gathered their gear and raised her arm and said, "Atheists on the right, Theist on the left. Play ball!"

It doesn't matter, atheists, theist, agnostic, but rather what you do with the teachings, and what you glean from the teachings. Piety and outward shows of faith matter little, if you don't do anything with the lessons. If you question, but fail to take anything away from the varied answers, that is a failing not of the teachings so much as a failure to weigh their merits, and decide for your own damn self.

I'm a Buddhist, but I have a great deal of respect for Christianity. In the power of the teachings, and the love and compassion that the best of its adherents demonstrate. I have similar respect for Islam--not for all those who claim to submit to the will of Allah by any means, the same as I don't have a respect for many who adhere to Christian doctrine in the same fashion, but respect for the faith and the beauty that can come from those teachings. It isn't simply that one has faith, but what you do with that faith. What that faith leads you to do, how you treat others. If you use your faith as a bludgeon, and an excuse to be a right bastiche, then that respect goes out the window. For the person. Be they Buddhist--and yes, Buddhist have some outright dickishness in the ranks--be they Christian, be they Muslim, be they Jew, be they Pagan, be they Sikhs. I don't judge the faith, but what people do with it. Some folks use their faith as an inspiration and shield for those around them, to protect, to lift up, and to help those who've fallen. Their faith lends them a structure to learn from. What they do with it, that's up to them, and rather than blaming the faith itself, I tend to focus on the individual. Well, except for Scientologists, that sh*t is just a scam, as much so as the Nichiren. F*cking Nichiren...
 
2013-08-22 12:32:43 AM  

the money is in the banana stand: Lawnchair: Tosches: Houston has a great gay pride parade!  Houston's Mayor is a Lesbian!

Truth.  And still is in no way short extreme right-wingers.

Lol. Okay dude. Right-Wingers sure, but Extreme Right-Wingers no. I live here in Houston and while there are plenty of conservative folks and some questionably batty people, it is very rare to encounter someone who is an "extreme right-winger" or fanatic. I interact with a lot of people and types of people on a daily basis. More often than not, the extent to the "extreme right-wingers" here are old people with signs protesting abortion clinics peacefully. This is far different than the Fark perception of hillbilly preachers with guns burning crosses in front yards riding around pick-up trucks worshiping a Rush Limbaugh idol.


They're in Santa Fe. ;-)
 
2013-08-22 12:36:46 AM  

hubiestubert: The thing is, the fastest growing ministry in the US aren't an Evengelical ministry, but Unitarian-Universalists. A fair number of folks are returning to churches as they grow older, have kids, and want that environment for their kids, and what they don't want, are a bunch of hate filled, mean spirited souls around them and their kids. So, the power of the Evengelicals is waning as other churches, and more progressive churches rise. This, of course, translates to lost revenue, and thus the push for MOAR revivals, MOAR heated rhetoric, to bring those dollars in, and a ramping up of the Prosperity Gospel, in order to keep folks hooked, and looking to be "under fire" and "under attack" and at "war" with your own government and communities is a way to get a foxhole mentality with parishioners, so that they don't stop and consider. It is less about Jesus and his message, than con men lookin ...



First off, I don't think it's as cynical and calculated as you seem to be saying.  I don't doubt that SOME of the people behind SOME of these churches and ministries are con men cynically pretending to believe what they say for the goal of fleecing the gullible, but I also think that most of the religious right sincerely believe (at least on the most conscious level) everything they profess to.

Secondly, there are some passages in the Bible, and some bits of history, and some doctrines of Christianity that do come together to create the "under fire" and "under attack" and "at war with your own government" narrative.  (Though of course, the Bible says so many things it's rather easy to come up with a few Bible verses to back up ANY position.)

Third, if you want to understand where this "Help!  I'm being oppressed!" idea comes from, keep in mind that many Christians strongly believe that everyone who isn't Christian is essentially working for Satan (usually unknowingly).  From a certain point of view, it really doesn't matter whether you're atheist or Muslim or Buddhist or Wiccan, every other religion (and things like atheism that aren't religions) is merely a different smokescreen Satan is using to fight against Christianity.  And when you look at it in terms of Christianity vs EVERYTHING ELSE, Christianity then IS in the minority.

(This may also be, by the way, why some Right Wing folks claim that Obama is secretly an atheist and others claim he's secretly Muslim.  From that point of view, Muslims and atheists are really on the same team - Satan's team.  Yes, the SNL "Church Chat with Church Lady" skits were parodies, but they were based on things people actually DO belive.)
 
2013-08-22 12:43:30 AM  

ciberido: Third, if you want to understand where this "Help!  I'm being oppressed!" idea comes from, keep in mind that many Christians strongly believe that everyone who isn't Christian is essentially working for Satan (usually unknowingly).  From a certain point of view, it really doesn't matter whether you're atheist or Muslim or Buddhist or Wiccan, every other religion (and things like atheism that aren't religions) is merely a different smokescreen Satan is using to fight against Christianity.


Well, luckily the Pope isn't one of those Christians. Of course, many of those Christians wouldn't consider the Pope a Christian.
 
2013-08-22 01:29:58 AM  

Diogenes: severedtoe: that made shiver go down my back.

Then never read Jeff Sharlet's books.  You'll want to kill yourself.



"Or (if you are a clearer minded thinker) ...."

/with apologies to Adams
 
2013-08-22 01:49:54 AM  

Dr. Kefarkian: Weaver95: When evangelicals started being more involved with politics than their relationship to the divine, Christianity started to lose its followers.

Lions - Eleventy thousand
Christians - Zero


I'm pretty sure that the Christians are ahead now.
 
2013-08-22 02:02:35 AM  

namatad: "I have found it an amusing strategy, when asked whether I am an atheist, to point out that the questioner is also an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I just go one god further." -dawkins


How exactly is that a strategy?  It's not like it's some big surprise or carefully-hidden secret that most religions see all other religions as false.  Does Dawkins think that he's going to spring this unexpectedly on a Christian one day and they're going to be caught absolutely flatfooted at the realization that the cat's out of the bag?

I suppose if by "an amusing strategy" Dawkins means "a way to amuse myself," then, sure, Rick, whatever floats your boat.


namatad:  "Isn't it amazing, that the religion in which you were indoctrinated into for the first 18 years of your life just happens to be the correct one? How lucky each one of you are."

Again, so what?  Why would this be a surprise, or something that didn't occur to, oh, everyone born in the past thousand years?

Frankly, for someone who's so intelligent on scientific topics, Dawkin's rather thick when it comes to the subject of religion.  Calling his arguments "childish" would be generous.   Maybe he should try reading a book or two on the subject before slapping together another of his own.
 
2013-08-22 02:03:56 AM  
 
2013-08-22 02:14:08 AM  

COMALite J: This guy even prophesied a seemingly plausible (to those who don't know as much about science as they think they do) way that the entire North American continent would be utterly destroyed, with nothing left but a vast cauldron of lava, and yet it would appear to the world to not be some miraculous divine judgment but rather a horrific natural disaster exacerbated and perhaps triggered by American greed and hubris, and that it need not involve anything nuclear. He said that the North American continent would become the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone. It basically involves the mass detonation of our natural gas deposits. "I have laid a trap for thee, O Babylon."


Personally I think he is not at all afar off. Recall that Yosemite is primed for it's next supervolcano eruption. It's potantial is to wipe out several surrounding states, and obviously relegate the rest of the US to the back seat. I've thought that God (aka, my subconscience) told me that it will be nothing like has been thought of before. That is, it's not at all obvious, except to those living through it. In fact, in Revelation it tells us that God will come as a thief in the night, but if every fundy Christian is watching the doors and windows, what thief will come? The thief will come where and when he is least expected. I don't say that anyone should believe, only that fundies should disbelieve what falsehoods and lies they've been told. I get too far into their own philosophy (which I still believe to be true, to some extent) so I'll stop.

Nevertheless, I firmly believe that trying to tease out details of the Revelation at the current time is a fool's game, let alone the ridiculous "the Soviet Union is the beast" fantasies that a lot of "prophets" have engaged in.

Really, America is the whore, the Internet is the Beast, and it's likely that capitalism or something will be the so-called "antichrist." It makes good sense spelled out that way if you are in to Biblical prophecy and aren't afraid to place blame where it belongs. Hell, the Revelation might already be fulfilled partly; see also wikipedia.

In any case, another huge bone I have to pick is that fundy Christians believe that the end times are upon us (just as the first disciples believed :rolleyes: ) and that there is no need to heed the command to be good stewards of the earth. Let's just rape and pillage any fossil fuel we desire in our incessant masturbation effort. They disregard all reason and say they have no effect on the earth when their own Holy Book tells them to be good stewards.

Lord of Heaven, Jehovah, God. Rain down your fury on false witnesses of your faith! The religion they follow is not at all of Jesus, even as they preach. Their sins have vexed my soul from the beginning of my birth even until now.

It shall be done. Their pride shall always be their undoing, even unto death. Amen, and God bless you all.

/Drunk and naked, but I believe to be full of righteous fury.
 
2013-08-22 02:25:49 AM  

hubiestubert: I'm a Buddhist, but I have a great deal of respect for Christianity. In the power of the teachings, and the love and compassion that the best of its adherents demonstrate. I have similar respect for Islam--not for all those who claim to submit to the will of Allah by any means, the same as I don't have a respect for many who adhere to Christian doctrine in the same fashion, but respect for the faith and the beauty that can come from those teachings. It isn't simply that one has faith, but what you do with that faith. What that faith leads you to do, how you treat others. If you use your faith as a bludgeon, and an excuse to be a right bastiche, then that respect goes out the window. For the person. Be they Buddhist--and yes, Buddhist have some outright dickishness in the ranks--be they Christian, be they Muslim, be they Jew, be they Pagan, be they Sikhs. I don't judge the faith, but what people do with it. Some folks use their faith as an inspiration and shield for those around them, to protect, to lift up, and to help those who've fallen. Their faith lends them a structure to learn from. What they do with it, that's up to them, and rather than blaming the faith itself, I tend to focus on the individual.


Amen, my brother. Jesus himself would not have rejected you. His own disiples asked what should be done of a person casting out demons in his name, and He said if you work for me, you work for me. Every endeavor towards God is the same, although paths you may chose may differ in length or effort. I've learned that Jesus' teachings have much in common with Eastern teachings; that of mindfulness of all actions, forgiveness, love, trust, acceptance, et cetera.

The paralells are too similar to ignore. Clearly He was a grand teacher to the Jews, and to us all.
 
2013-08-22 02:31:29 AM  

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: Weaver95: When evangelicals started being more involved with politics than their relationship to the divine, Christianity started to lose its followers.

Evangelicals are not Christians, they are Republicans.

Otherwise they would not have voted for a Mormon.


Before the election a member of my mother's church said "I hate having to chose between a Muslim and a Mormon."
 
2013-08-22 02:41:23 AM  

simplicimus: the money is in the banana stand: I know that in Indianapolis there are all sorts of crazy groups. When I worked at a ghetto Radio Shack every week some "preacher" or "minister" in a rusted out car would buy PA equipment for their new church. None were affiliated with any larger group, and they would often try to take me to task for being "over-educated." They all seemed to be dualists, believing that the physical world is the creation of Satan and that rejection of learning was praiseworthy. Desiring success in this world was worshipping Satan, one should only read the Bible and let a preacher supply other knowledge.

That took a while to track down. Sounds like the Catharism Heresy (11 Century)
"Catharism was a complicated mix of non-Christian religions reworked with Christian terminology. The Cathars had many different sects; they had in common a teaching that the world was created by an evil deity (so matter was evil) and we must worship the good deity instead.



4.bp.blogspot.com
What a follower of Catharism might look like.
 
2013-08-22 04:02:18 AM  

Stibium: COMALite J: This guy even prophesied a seemingly plausible (to those who don't know as much about science as they think they do) way that the entire North American continent would be utterly destroyed, with nothing left but a vast cauldron of lava, and yet it would appear to the world to not be some miraculous divine judgment but rather a horrific natural disaster exacerbated and perhaps triggered by American greed and hubris, and that it need not involve anything nuclear. He said that the North American continent would become the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone. It basically involves the mass detonation of our natural gas deposits. "I have laid a trap for thee, O Babylon."

Personally I think he is not at all afar off. Recall that Yosemite is primed for it's next supervolcano eruption. It's potantial is to wipe out several surrounding states, and obviously relegate the rest of the US to the back seat. I've thought that God (aka, my subconscience) told me that it will be nothing like has been thought of before. That is, it's not at all obvious, except to those living through it. In fact, in Revelation it tells us that God will come as a thief in the night, but if every fundy Christian is watching the doors and windows, what thief will come? The thief will come where and when he is least expected. I don't say that anyone should believe, only that fundies should disbelieve what falsehoods and lies they've been told. I get too far into their own philosophy (which I still believe to be true, to some extent) so I'll stop.

Nevertheless, I firmly believe that trying to tease out details of the Revelation at the current time is a fool's game, let alone the ridiculous "the Soviet Union is the beast" fantasies that a lot of "prophets" have engaged in.

Really, America is the whore, the Internet is the Beast, and it's likely that capitalism or something will be the so-called "antichrist." It makes good sense spelled out that way if you are in to Biblical prophecy and aren ...


Some interesting food for thought. Thanks!

This guy I referred to calls himself "Bands," after one of the two Staves of God (the other being "Beauty") in Zechariah Chapter 11. I pointed out to him that Revelation says that the Two Witnesses are to prophecy one thousand two hundred and threescore days (1,260, aka ~3½ years), and that he was way over budget even back then (during the Clinton Administration ― he claimed then that America would be destroyed before Clinton left office, and later changed that to before Bush left office).

I have his original website backed up on one of my ancient PC hard drives that I have stashed away somewhere. I may try to recover it. He had detailed descriptions of visions where he was taken up into Heaven and witnessed the court of God as He passed His divine judgment on America (which He called, for reasons unknown to "Bands," "Amerilic").
 
2013-08-22 08:33:50 AM  

Krieghund: So, what do you guys want to do now that this thread is done?


I know,  let's tell jokes! I'll start

Three guys walk into a bar, the fourth one ducks.

// rimshot
 
2013-08-22 09:49:30 AM  
It is just a farking book.

/and not a very good one
 
2013-08-22 11:20:05 AM  
Magorn:
I'm raised Roman Catholic...praticing..I don;t know the hell what, with a fairly strong "faith" nonetheless.  My wife is somewhere between "spiritual" and agnostic, with Family experiences with raltives that cause her to despise the RC church.   As my son hit adolesence we found ourselves regularly attending a non-demoninational (and very apoltical) evangelical christian chruch because my son made cont ...

How's that working out for you?  I was raised Catholic, my wife is Catholic, and most of my family is still practicing Catholics.  We got married in a Catholic ceremony and had our son baptized Catholic.  I have - in recent years - become much less Catholic, somewhere on the border between agnostic and athiest (hard to shut off decades of programming).  My wife - while very a la carte when it comes to her beliefs - still insists on going to Sunday mass together.  And while I've stopped participating (I spend most of the morning in the back entertaining the kid), I begrudgingly attend with her.

So how do you play it in your household where one person is more "Catholic" than the other?  When questions arise with your son on this religion vs. that religion vs. none of the above, how do you handle it?  Is there ever any sort of battle between you and your spouse over religion/Sunday mornings/etc,?

Just curious.  It's all new to me.
 
2013-08-22 11:44:07 AM  

StubePT: Magorn:
I'm raised Roman Catholic...praticing..I don;t know the hell what, with a fairly strong "faith" nonetheless.  My wife is somewhere between "spiritual" and agnostic, with Family experiences with raltives that cause her to despise the RC church.   As my son hit adolesence we found ourselves regularly attending a non-demoninational (and very apoltical) evangelical christian chruch because my son made cont ...

How's that working out for you?  I was raised Catholic, my wife is Catholic, and most of my family is still practicing Catholics.  We got married in a Catholic ceremony and had our son baptized Catholic.  I have - in recent years - become much less Catholic, somewhere on the border between agnostic and athiest (hard to shut off decades of programming).  My wife - while very a la carte when it comes to her beliefs - still insists on going to Sunday mass together.  And while I've stopped participating (I spend most of the morning in the back entertaining the kid), I begrudgingly attend with her.

So how do you play it in your household where one person is more "Catholic" than the other?  When questions arise with your son on this religion vs. that religion vs. none of the above, how do you handle it?  Is there ever any sort of battle between you and your spouse over religion/Sunday mornings/etc,?

Just curious.  It's all new to me.


Wife #1 (both raised Catholic) started raising our daughter in the Catholic Church, so no battles there. We got her through Baptism and First Communion, working on Reconciliation when Wife #1 died. Daughter (age 11) took a dim view of God and religion after that. I think she's some kind of Pagan now.
 
2013-08-22 12:00:28 PM  

cwolf20: Well, it is the SBC.  A lot of baptist churches in the south don't acknowledge them.


... at the liquor store.

/rimshot
 
2013-08-22 12:17:11 PM  

Gonz: Quick- give me an argument against gay marriage that wasn't also used against interracial marriage."

"That's different. You wouldn't understand."


I am very anti-Catholic and pro-gay marriage, but if your friend can't immediately answer that question with "a man and a woman," and you can't see that response coming before you finish conceiving of the question, maybe you're both just exceedingly terrible at debate.
 
2013-08-22 12:23:21 PM  

JesseL: I've always wondered why the faithful are so intent on shaping secular law to match their morality. How can you have any kind of spiritual strength when every sinful act is punished as a crime in the material world? How can there be virtue in a world where being good and resisting temptation isn't even a choice? Shouldn't the word of God be sufficient promise of the rewards of obeying him and the consequences of straying?


This is actually quite brilliant, IMHO.
 
2013-08-22 01:27:44 PM  

Pangea: JesseL: I've always wondered why the faithful are so intent on shaping secular law to match their morality. How can you have any kind of spiritual strength when every sinful act is punished as a crime in the material world? How can there be virtue in a world where being good and resisting temptation isn't even a choice? Shouldn't the word of God be sufficient promise of the rewards of obeying him and the consequences of straying?

This is actually quite brilliant, IMHO.


Thank you. It's something that I'd think should be a pretty elementary theology question (on par with "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?"), but I've yet to hear a satisfactory answer from any of the blue law types.
 
2013-08-22 03:06:00 PM  

Pangea: Gonz: Quick- give me an argument against gay marriage that wasn't also used against interracial marriage."

"That's different. You wouldn't understand."

I am very anti-Catholic and pro-gay marriage, but if your friend can't immediately answer that question with "a man and a woman," and you can't see that response coming before you finish conceiving of the question, maybe you're both just exceedingly terrible at debate.


That's not exactly a real argument of any kind, though... That's just pointing out the aspect of it that they don't like... They'd need to explain why that matters; why it's bad for a marriage to be man+man or woman+woman instead of man+woman... And, I suspect those explanations of why it's wrong will sound very similar to some of the ones slung around to explain why interracial marriage was supposedly wrong as well...  "Tradition", "Sanctity", etc...

However, one unique argument against it would be "Unable to create children together"... However, if that's a valid reason to forbid marriage, then we must no longer allow infertile people to get married either...

Another possibly unique argument would be that it's "Sinful" (though, I suspect at least some people tried to claim the same thing about marrying other races back in the day, as well)... But, that would only be according to a particular religion, if you even accept that it is there (and I see very little evidence that it actually is)... And, since we allow people of different religions to marry, I don't see how we can impose the rules of one particular religion on everyone... What's sinful in your religion might be required in my religion! So, it's certainly no logical basis to disallow marriage (the civil concept; any particular church can refuse to perform the ceremony if they disagree with it for whatever reason, of course)...
 
2013-08-22 03:59:10 PM  

StubePT: Magorn:
I'm raised Roman Catholic...praticing..I don;t know the hell what, with a fairly strong "faith" nonetheless.  My wife is somewhere between "spiritual" and agnostic, with Family experiences with raltives that cause her to despise the RC church.   As my son hit adolesence we found ourselves regularly attending a non-demoninational (and very apoltical) evangelical christian chruch because my son made cont ...

How's that working out for you?  I was raised Catholic, my wife is Catholic, and most of my family is still practicing Catholics.  We got married in a Catholic ceremony and had our son baptized Catholic.  I have - in recent years - become much less Catholic, somewhere on the border between agnostic and athiest (hard to shut off decades of programming).  My wife - while very a la carte when it comes to her beliefs - still insists on going to Sunday mass together.  And while I've stopped participating (I spend most of the morning in the back entertaining the kid), I begrudgingly attend with her.

So how do you play it in your household where one person is more "Catholic" than the other?  When questions arise with your son on this religion vs. that religion vs. none of the above, how do you handle it?  Is there ever any sort of battle between you and your spouse over religion/Sunday mornings/etc,?

Just curious.  It's all new to me.

For us it has worked well.  What religious conflcts have arisen is usually less between the wife and me, and more between me and some of the Youth pastors of other leaders at the church)  The main guys are pretty cool and I like the way they think, but some of the youth leaders are much more conservative and one is an outright evolution denier.   I tend to handle conflicts by saying "This is what *I* believe....this is what other people think...and doing my best to present my "side" while not forcing it on him.  (the exception of course being Evolution whare I simply said  "no. He's wrong here's the scientific reasons why, here are the religious reasons why, and bTW this whole nonsense was started by the Bishop of USher and is found nowhere in the bible"

The church itslef took some getting used to for me ...there's some beauty and poetry in the mass it that you just don't get in a school auditorium where worship consists of some lite Christian rock hits followed by a homily and a bit of prayer,  but that's helped focus me on what really IS important and what was window dressing

Still Catholic enough to miss Communion however...had some genuine...well the Buddhists would call them "moments of enlightenment" ...after communion back in the day, and miss that feeling sometimes...But as my wife recently challenged me to consider, is that because I REALLY believe in transubstantion and that the communion was something mystical or is it I'm not trying hard enough to reach that same state these days?....hard question for me to answer honestly.
 
2013-08-22 04:42:36 PM  
The self-image of themselves being like Jeremiah, preaching from the wilderness to a forsaken civilization, is a nice source of consoling attitude bolstering for fundamentalists, regardless of how well it actually corresponds to the real world.
 
2013-08-22 04:45:32 PM  

RobSeace: They'd need to explainwhy that matters; why it's bad for a marriage to be man+man or woman+woman instead of man+woman...


I should have also added the caveat that I am sure the authority of any argument they provide would be that it is "God's Word - because it's in the Bible." Which is entirely invalid for a debate:  "My authority comes from a volume of literature that I identify as sacred, but you don't"

I was actually involved in a judged debate when I was in high school, arguing that non-Christian religions are *valid*. The teacher ruled my argument the losing argument, because I was incapable of disputing the Bible verses used by the Pro-Christian side, which are gospel truth and thus indisputable.

That was at a public school in Northeast Ohio in the early nineties and nobody even batted an eye at that teacher's reasoning. I'm so grateful that I escaped.
 
2013-08-22 11:45:38 PM  

Magorn: simplicimus: the money is in the banana stand: I know that in Indianapolis there are all sorts of crazy groups. When I worked at a ghetto Radio Shack every week some "preacher" or "minister" in a rusted out car would buy PA equipment for their new church. None were affiliated with any larger group, and they would often try to take me to task for being "over-educated." They all seemed to be dualists, believing that the physical world is the creation of Satan and that rejection of learning was praiseworthy. Desiring success in this world was worshipping Satan, one should only read the Bible and let a preacher supply other knowledge.

That took a while to track down. Sounds like the Catharism Heresy (11 Century)
"Catharism was a complicated mix of non-Christian religions reworked with Christian terminology. The Cathars had many different sects; they had in common a teaching that the world was created by an evil deity (so matter was evil) and we must worship the good deity instead.

Which is actually Manichaeism, a Persian religion that grew out of Mithraism in much the way Christianity grew out of Judaism.  It was similar enough to Christianity that it morphed into " heretical" Christianity at least three separate time in different places during the middle ages.  The Christian conception of the Devil comes from it, as he's really the "dark god" from Manichaeism


One of my favorite ironies of history was a group of Manicheans, who believed that evil was just as powerful as good, who were exterminated as heretics by their neighbors...who, of course, insisted that good was stronger than evil, since God was paramount, and obviously on the side of good.
 
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