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(Patheos)   "The Bible Belt is collapsing," Russell Moore, president of the SBC's Religious Liberty Commission. "We are no longer the moral majority. We are a prophetic minority"   (patheos.com) divider line 281
    More: Interesting, Russell Moore, Religious Liberty Commission, Southern Baptist Convention, Liberty Commission, White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, Ralph Reed, Christian Coalition, liberty  
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6770 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Aug 2013 at 3:01 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-21 03:29:09 PM

clancifer: He misspelled 'pathetic'.


LOL
 
2013-08-21 03:29:12 PM

Weaver95: cameroncrazy1984: Weaver95: When evangelicals started being more involved with politics than their relationship to the divine, Christianity started to lose its followers.

Well, that and the Internet and the widely accessible information it provides.

Oh there are a lot of reasons modern Christianity is imploding and collapsing. Hypocrisy, lies, corruption...it's all there if you scratch the surface and look underneath the gloss. Maybe the evangelicals would be better off if all things Christian DID implode, at least for a while. If nothing else it would force them to reevaluate their faith and it's role in their lives and in society.


Instead of fixating on gays? Can't help but notice that in his talk about how his religion can be revived he still slips in several mentions of the gays. Dude, mind your own business and fix your own shiat.
 
2013-08-21 03:29:50 PM
Came to make sure Grumpy Cat had her say.
 
2013-08-21 03:30:12 PM

Weaver95: I wonder just how damaging prosperity gospel theology has been to Christianity in this country?


A lot of religious leaders got shot in the Soviet and French revolutions for being seen as being part of the problem and not part of the solution.
 
2013-08-21 03:30:51 PM

cameroncrazy1984: Well, that and the Internet and the widely accessible information it provides.


provides more opinion than information, of course thats just my opinion.
 
2013-08-21 03:31:24 PM

vpb: They never were moral.  Or a majority.


...aaaand two.
 
2013-08-21 03:31:33 PM
The moron majority is downgraded to a pathetic minority.

Honestly, I still think they are a majority.
 
2013-08-21 03:31:59 PM
Like most "prophetic minorities", I'm sure this will end well for the members.
 
2013-08-21 03:32:43 PM
Sheddin tears and pressin mah charges!
 
2013-08-21 03:33:23 PM
Can't wait until these assholes become a bad memory.
 
2013-08-21 03:33:39 PM
Stopping by to make sure the claims in the subjective and adjective modifying the subject were adequately questioned respective to veracity of the claims.
/satisfied, leaving
 
2013-08-21 03:34:55 PM

vpb: They never were moral.  Or a majority.


But they never let pesky things like "facts" or even "reason" stop them before...
 
2013-08-21 03:35:48 PM
Suck it, freaky alien zombie worship nazis.
 
2013-08-21 03:36:50 PM

Infernalist: Weaver95: I wonder just how damaging prosperity gospel theology has been to Christianity in this country?

A lot of religious leaders got shot in the Soviet and French revolutions for being seen as being part of the problem and not part of the solution.


What I mean is that by now most reasonable people can and have spotted the flaws in prosperity gospel theology. It's essentially heresy after all. But is the decline of evangelical interest in mainstream society related to the rise of prosperity gospel theology....or is this decline due to a combination of factors?

I guess there's no way to really measure something like that. I just find it an interesting question to ponder.
 
2013-08-21 03:37:13 PM

Weaver95: cameroncrazy1984: Weaver95: Christianity is imploding and collapsing. Hypocrisy, lies, corruption...it's all there if you scratch the surface and look underneath the gloss

That's always been there. But the lack of information dissemination prior to the 20th Century left a lot of that alone.

Not as much as you'd think. Religious upheavals and schisms have existed long before the invention of the Internet. It might move a bit faster these days but not as much as you'd think.

I think the problem isn't so much communication as it is that modern Christianity has lost its focus. Are they spiritual leaders who act as a focus for the divine on earth or are they a well funded lobbyist organization with oodles of tax free money? Most of what I see from Christians in this country says they're lobbyists and activists, not spiritual trailblazers in the eternal quest for the divine.

Maybe it's time for evangelicals to fall. Maybe they've had their time. I'm pagan so I sort of h ave to believe in cycles. Maybe it's time for Christian churches to lie fallow until the wheel turns again.


Mr. Wednesday is still disappointed in you.

/obscure?
 
2013-08-21 03:37:22 PM

North_Central_Positronics: [funnycatwallpapers.com image 400x400]


Best use of tardcat I have seen all week!
 
2013-08-21 03:37:28 PM

IlGreven: impaler: Done in 1 and 2.

No, we still have to point out that they're calling 78.5% of the country (and far more still in the "Bible Belt") a minority.


I don't think Catholics (among others) count towards this particular minority.
 
2013-08-21 03:38:39 PM
All of you godless atheists are wrong, they are a prophetic minority.  Unfortunately, Apollo placed on curse on all of their tongues so their predictions are not to be believed.

/praise Zeus
 
2013-08-21 03:39:51 PM

Infernalist: Weisenheimer: Their position is suffering due to more and more people seeing that the existence of a God just doesn't make sense, and that many of their views are based purely on a 'because God says so.' In order to be seen as the source of Morality, they need to change their stance on not just GLBT issues, but several others as well, but they can't because their main tenant is "We Have The Truth."

Sadly, many people still believe that religion or God is the source of Morality, when in fact it's simply human empathy.

It's abdication of responsibility for your own morals.  It's a cowardly way to deal with moral conflict in your life.  Those that cling to religious mores and morals often do so because it's harder to stand up and say "No, I don't care what the Church says, birth control is not a sin, gays are not sinning by simply being gay and I'm done seeing 'thought-crime' as something to feel guilty over."


I have a friend who converted to Catholicism. Like, hardcore Conservative Catholicism. He went all-in on every aspect of the Church's dogma. He literally doesn't understand why I call him a bigot when he speaks out about the gayfolk. "It's in line with Church doctrine!"

"Well, then Church Doctrinte is bigoted."

"How can you say that? It's God's will incarnate."

"First off, Church Doctrine has changed over the years. Ask Galileo. Second, how can I say it's bigoted? I can read. We've seen this before. Quick- give me an argument against gay marriage that wasn't also used against interracial marriage."

"That's different. You wouldn't understand."

On the bright side, the new Pope is driving him crazy. He's a Benedict XVI man, Francis isn't really his cup of tea at all.
 
2013-08-21 03:39:54 PM
"The Bible Belt is collapsing," Russell Moore, president of the SBC's Religious Liberty Commission. "We are no longer the moral majority. We are a prophetic minority"

[dry]  Thank God.
 
2013-08-21 03:40:52 PM

Weaver95: Infernalist: Weaver95: I wonder just how damaging prosperity gospel theology has been to Christianity in this country?

A lot of religious leaders got shot in the Soviet and French revolutions for being seen as being part of the problem and not part of the solution.

What I mean is that by now most reasonable people can and have spotted the flaws in prosperity gospel theology. It's essentially heresy after all. But is the decline of evangelical interest in mainstream society related to the rise of prosperity gospel theology....or is this decline due to a combination of factors?

I guess there's no way to really measure something like that. I just find it an interesting question to ponder.


The 'greed' instinct is hardwired into our id.  It's one of our baser instincts.  It's why a dog will gulp his food down even when there's no other dogs around and there hasn't been for 10 years.  Instinct.

So, when that greed gets validated and encouraged by religious faith, well...It's going to draw in the baser elements of our society while simultaneously repulsing those who instinctively recognize it for what it is: The worship of money over anything else.

I'd say that the Prosperity Gospel has chased out a number of folk, myself included.  But, I also suspect that as time passes, all societies get less and less religious as the overall IQ increases.  There's less and less need to say "God did it" when your people can figure out the true reason.
 
2013-08-21 03:41:20 PM

PocketfullaSass: For those who feel spiritually betwixt and between, or those who aren't spiritual at all but are looking for a lost sense of community, I highly recommend checking out you local UU Fellowship.


Hear, hear. UU gives people the sense of community without the looking down on others that other churches directly or indirectly call for.
 
2013-08-21 03:41:26 PM

bekaye: The moron majority is downgraded to a pathetic minority.

Honestly, I still think they are a majority.


Only in rural and some suburban areas. You get into the big cities and these people are the weirdos.That's why its the major metropolitan areas and not small town 'Murica that has gay pride parades/festivities.

/might have a Northern Illinois bias here.
 
2013-08-21 03:41:35 PM

Witty_Retort: From the original WSJ article I couldn't link to:

Which is not to say that Mr. Moore wants evangelicals to "turn inward" and reject the larger U.S. culture. Rather, he wants to refocus the movement on serving as a religious example battling in the public square on "three core issues"-life, marriage and religious liberty.
...
Mr. Moore is also deeply involved in the evangelical adoption movement.
...
Mr. Moore says he hopes to make the ObamaCare mandate a major issue in the 2016 election. By then, it will have become clear how intrusive the health-care law has become, he says, and the American people will side with religious groups that protest having to act against their beliefs. "The separation of church and state," Mr. Moore says, "is not a liberal issue."

So the "three core issues"-life, marriage and religious liberty - where religious liberty is denying health-care to the poor.
Just like Jesus taught him.


How is it denying health care to the poor?
 
2013-08-21 03:42:50 PM
I still find it quite amusing when certain religious people believe they are automatically more moral than the rest of us just because they are religious.
 
2013-08-21 03:44:17 PM

wxboy: IlGreven: impaler: Done in 1 and 2.

No, we still have to point out that they're calling 78.5% of the country (and far more still in the "Bible Belt") a minority.

I don't think Catholics (among others) count towards this particular minority.


Of course. It's easy to clam a minority if you exclude everyone who doesn't think exactly like you. But then, by that logic, anyone can claim to be a minority, even a white, male, heterosexual like I am.
 
2013-08-21 03:45:44 PM

Pincy: I still find it quite amusing when certain religious people believe they are automatically more moral than the rest of us just because they are religious.


That's because those folk would amoral monsters without the fear of damnation/bribery of Heaven after death to keep them on the straight and narrow.  So, they expect that to be the same of all people who aren't adherents of their own particular brand of bow and scrape.
 
2013-08-21 03:46:00 PM
We are no longer the moral majority. We are a prophetic minority.

Goddammit, people, this wasn't a concession.  It's a rally cry.
 
2013-08-21 03:46:22 PM
Maybe if they were less "fire and brimstoney" and more "love thy neighbory", things would be different. By telling people who think differently they are heathens and all that is wrong with the world, you are not going to make any friends; much less have them join your church. Also there will be those in your church who see this condemnation of those who are different as hypocrisy, and choose to leave.

Wow, in a lot of ways it sounds like I described today's Republican Party also.
 
2013-08-21 03:48:29 PM

Weaver95: When evangelicals started being more involved with politics than their relationship to the divine, Christianity started to lose its followers.


That would have been about 382 CE
 
2013-08-21 03:48:45 PM
Well, bless their hearts
 
2013-08-21 03:49:21 PM
True of not, this is what these folks have always WANTED to believe.   The label "moral Majority" aside, the poltical appeal to evangelicals has ALWAYS been based on the premise that Christians (at least REAL Christians) were a small and persecuted minority in this country, one that had to stick together, no matter what or it was just a few short steps from being thrown to the lions again.

A objectively ridiculous as this may sound in a country where 90% of people self-identify as Christian, it really has been the core of their message for a long time.

  To them the world is a scary place controlled by lesbian feminist pagan witches who want to take over thier local school board and force their daughters to have unprotected sex and get abortions -which is why they HAVE to pack the local school board with true believers.  It's one where a cabal of "Scientists" which includes everyone with a PHD down to the local HS Chemistry teacher, are ALL working together on an evil plan to make stuff up about "evolution" and "climate change" just to cause true beilievers to doubt their faith. Presumably so they can boast of their sucesses while drinking the blood of innocents at their annual "hail, Satan " conventions.  It's a world where, despite that they not only don't know any Muslims personally, or even know anybody who knows one, they have to live in constant fear that Sharia Law will be imposed on them and they'll all be forced to wear burkhas (even the men) unless they can elect that one good Christian man from thier district who has vowed to put a stop to it single-handedly
 
2013-08-21 03:49:39 PM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-08-21 03:50:00 PM

PunGent: //WWJB?


Who would Jesus bang?
 
2013-08-21 03:50:11 PM

Weaver95: When evangelicals started being more involved with politics than their relationship to the divine, Christianity started to lose its followers.


Lions - Eleventy thousand
Christians - Zero

I think that's when Christianity started to lose its' followers
/it was a helluva game, too
 
2013-08-21 03:50:20 PM

IlGreven: wxboy: IlGreven: impaler: Done in 1 and 2.

No, we still have to point out that they're calling 78.5% of the country (and far more still in the "Bible Belt") a minority.

I don't think Catholics (among others) count towards this particular minority.

Of course. It's easy to clam a minority if you exclude everyone who doesn't think exactly like you. But then, by that logic, anyone can claim to be a minority, even a white, male, heterosexual like I am.


yeah, Christians are still a majority but only if you include all Protestant denominations, Catholics and people who identify with a denomination but don't go to church.
 
2013-08-21 03:51:05 PM

Pincy: I still find it quite amusing when certain religious people believe they are automatically more moral than the rest of us just because they are religious.


My favorite is when certain people in one religion believe they are more intelligent than people in another religion. One farker in particular who is posting in this very thread makes me laugh every time.

Enjoy your Special Olympics gold medal!

/you know who you are
 
2013-08-21 03:51:54 PM

SurfaceTension: PunGent: //WWJB?

Who would Jesus bang?


he did travel around with 12 men
 
2013-08-21 03:53:50 PM

Weaver95: Infernalist: Weaver95: I wonder just how damaging prosperity gospel theology has been to Christianity in this country?

A lot of religious leaders got shot in the Soviet and French revolutions for being seen as being part of the problem and not part of the solution.

What I mean is that by now most reasonable people can and have spotted the flaws in prosperity gospel theology. It's essentially heresy after all. But is the decline of evangelical interest in mainstream society related to the rise of prosperity gospel theology....or is this decline due to a combination of factors?

I guess there's no way to really measure something like that. I just find it an interesting question to ponder.


One farker explained his Christianity as accepting Jesus would forgive all your sins, past, present and future. As a Catholic (mostly) I found that more a pathology than a religion. And yes, the Prosperity Gospel is flat out heresy, approaching the stuff the Anti-Christ is supposed to preach (Not that I believe in Revelations).
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-08-21 03:54:12 PM

Voiceofreason01: SurfaceTension: PunGent: //WWJB?

Who would Jesus bang?

he did travel around with 12 men


too bad airhorns weren't invented yet.
 
2013-08-21 03:54:12 PM
Sofa King Smart:
I have had a vision of the future where the Bible Belt has lost its battle to choke back the expanding waistline of American Exceptionalism.... where the Pants of Religion have fallen around the ankles of reason and truth and knowledge... thereby exposing the throbbing throngs of the purple helmeted members of the secular humanists... chafing against the chains that have encumbered them for so long in the dark, dank, sweaty underwear of ignorance and intolerance.

This here, is a thing of horrifying beauty. I do not know whether to clap, or throw up a little, so both have been done.
 
2013-08-21 03:55:22 PM

simplicimus: Weaver95: Infernalist: Weaver95: I wonder just how damaging prosperity gospel theology has been to Christianity in this country?

A lot of religious leaders got shot in the Soviet and French revolutions for being seen as being part of the problem and not part of the solution.

What I mean is that by now most reasonable people can and have spotted the flaws in prosperity gospel theology. It's essentially heresy after all. But is the decline of evangelical interest in mainstream society related to the rise of prosperity gospel theology....or is this decline due to a combination of factors?

I guess there's no way to really measure something like that. I just find it an interesting question to ponder.

One farker explained his Christianity as accepting Jesus would forgive all your sins, past, present and future. As a Catholic (mostly) I found that more a pathology than a religion. And yes, the Prosperity Gospel is flat out heresy, approaching the stuff the Anti-Christ is supposed to preach (Not that I believe in Revelations).


The worship of wealth is not just limited to the Evangelical Prosperity Gospel.  It's in the heart of every religion that has paupers and beggars filling the pews of gold-plated churches.
 
2013-08-21 03:56:23 PM
I've always wondered why the faithful are so intent on shaping secular law to match their morality. How can you have any kind of spiritual strength when every sinful act is punished as a crime in the material world? How can there be virtue in a world where being good and resisting temptation isn't even a choice? Shouldn't the word of God be sufficient promise of the rewards of obeying him and the consequences of straying?
 
2013-08-21 03:56:52 PM
One major problem is that "dress the kids up, get in the car, weekly Sunday churchgoing" is an intrinsically middle-class trait. In the category with voting and becoming Scoutmasters of your kids' troop.

Sure, lots of poor folks (especially old) are regular churchies.  Lots of really poor people are really loudly Christian Conservative, too.  But, a whole, whole lot, even the right-wing, don't actually get out of the trailer and go to church.  Catholicism offered something to the very poor years ago (a bit of razzle-dazzle back before TV), but the modern Southern Baptist prosperity gospel megachurch?  Isn't a terribly welcoming place for the down-on-their-luck.

The boom in southern megachurches coincided with the brief economic boom in the south.  That brief shining period when US industry figured out that they could make cars and carpet and telemarket and whatever with $8.50/hour non-union labor in the South, but before they figured out that anything they could do in Alabama they could do in China even cheaper.

During that brief spurt, the South had a burgeoning middle class.  That class has been foreclosed out of their Goodlettsville duplex and is back to just being old-fashioned working poor.
 
2013-08-21 03:59:50 PM
simplicimus:
One farker explained his Christianity as accepting Jesus would forgive all your sins, past, present and future. As a Catholic (mostly) I found that more a pathology than a religion. And yes, the Prosperity Gospel is flat out heresy, approaching the stuff the Anti-Christ is supposed to preach (Not that I believe in Revelations).

Lutheran theology is that you are saved by God's Grace. ie you're not saved through acts or through the forgiveness of a priest(confession) or even through repentance.
 
2013-08-21 03:59:53 PM
I see this thread has assembled the usual compliment of yang babies sloshing around in their mockery of the yin bathwater.
 
2013-08-21 03:59:55 PM

JesseL: I've always wondered why the faithful are so intent on shaping secular law to match their morality. How can you have any kind of spiritual strength when every sinful act is punished as a crime in the material world? How can there be virtue in a world where being good and resisting temptation isn't even a choice? Shouldn't the word of God be sufficient promise of the rewards of obeying him and the consequences of straying?


To them, it's an offense to God that what 'He' says is a punishable sin isn't treated as such by the law.  Even though Jesus plainly established a difference between the two when he said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's."

If you want to get down to brass tacks, Jesus himself established the Separation of Church and State.
 
2013-08-21 04:00:02 PM
Good. We need less of that Bible-thumping junk, anyway. It collectively brings us down when it rules everything. Read your Bible and keep it to yourself, follow your rules, piss off and leave the rest of us who don't believe your horseshiat.
 
2013-08-21 04:00:29 PM

heavymetal: Maybe if they were less "fire and brimstoney" and more "love thy neighbory", things would be different. By telling people who think differently they are heathens and all that is wrong with the world, you are not going to make any friends; much less have them join your church. Also there will be those in your church who see this condemnation of those who are different as hypocrisy, and choose to leave.

Wow, in a lot of ways it sounds like I described today's Republican Party also.


It is by design. FARK linked some article years ago (that I have been unable to find, since) by this guy who worked for the president of some big seminary in Texas. His mentor told the story of, back in the early 50's, there was a double top secret meeting between GOP bosses and church leaders on the terribleness of communism. GOPers wanted to link with Christianity, but knew their ideology was completely unpalatable to Christians. So the seminary president came up with the idea, since we can't change Republicans, let's change Christianity, starting at the seminary level. Once these new pastors with the Right Way of thinking got out into the public, they could start shaping opinion and, by perverting teachings, make the GOP look ok.

/wish I could find that article :(
 
2013-08-21 04:04:25 PM

severedtoe: that made shiver go down my back.


Then never read Jeff Sharlet's books.  You'll want to kill yourself.

Mark Sanford is the walking embodiment of their philosophies.  He's not a loser who cheated on his wife (against the law in SC BTW) and used state funds to it.  He's "chosen" and made a mistake on the way to fulfilling God's plan for him.  He's not a moral hypocrite - you just don't understand him and his divine destiny.

The vermin who comprise The Family can justify pretty much any evil.  Hell, they don't even care if you're Christian!  As long as you can help them see their plans to fruition.  Arm Muslim genocidal maniacs?  Sure!  It's all good if you're with God.  And you're with God if they say so.  They're his appointed bouncers.


Sharlet:  When I was working on that story, I remember debating how much Hitler we should put in the piece. That is, we wondered how fair it was to dwell on The Family's invocations of Hitler as a model of "total commitment." As it turns out, it was quite fair. After I left Ivanwald, a team of researchers and I spent years combing through hundreds of thousands of documents in archives around the country. We discovered that as far back as the 1940s, when The Family began organizing congressmen, the group's founder, Abraham Vereide, was praising Hitler's "youth work" as a model to be adopted by Americans.   He denounced Hitler himself, but he admired fascism's cultivation ofelites, crucial to what he saw as a God-ordained coming "age ofminority control."

The Family has put that concept, which they call "Jesus plus nothing," into action for decades, from their early successes fighting the New Deal in the 1930s and 40s to their recruitment of war criminals such as Herman J. Abs, known as "Hitler's banker," into postwar European leadership, to their facilitation of U.S. support for dictators ranging from Papa Doc Duvalier of Haiti to Suharto of Indonesia to Yoweri Museveni of Uganda, now their "key man" for Africa. The fetish for strongman leadership has continued with Vereide's successor, Doug Coe, who leads the group today. Throughout his letters in the Billy Graham Center Archive at Wheaton College, I found references to the leadership model of Hitler. In one sermon, variations of which he's given many times, Coe says: "Jesus said 'You got to put Him before mother-father-brother-sister.' Hitler, Lenin, Mao, that's what they taught the kids. Mao even had the kids killing their own mother and father. But it wasn't murder. It was for building the new nation. The new kingdom."


Source
 
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