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(Tech Dirt)   NSA: We try to only spy on foreign targets, but get the occasional US citizen. Latest Leak: We tap into about 75% of US internet traffic and set our own filters with no oversight to worry about   (techdirt.com) divider line 317
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4204 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Aug 2013 at 2:41 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-21 03:19:44 PM  

Ned Stark: Outrageous Muff: Ned Stark: So instead of speaking up now when its merely a moral outrage we should let em do whatever they want for a decade until the technology improves enough for it to be a practical outrage as well?

Any reason why?

Can you think of a reason 1)Why the government would collect US citizen data without a warrant. 2)Then arrest people on that data. 3)Then find a judge willing to convict you on that data. 4)Then finding an appeals court to uphold that verdict. 5)Find another appeals court to uphold that verdict. 6)The US Supreme Court to uphold that verdict. 7)A populace that would allow such a violation.

1) so the instant they decide to slap down any given citizen for any reason they can pull up the complete record of everything that person has ever done and go over it with a fine toothed comb matching actions to crimes and then hauling them off, or collecting reputation destroying breeches of mere taboo and making them public.
2)see 1.
3) hardly difficult. Perhaps not even nessecary becade, again, destroying a reputation can be enough.
4-5) irrelevant as fark
6)not at all implausible.
7)you, for a start.


And they don't need to use the data for "legal" proceedings against the person.  They can use it for blackmailing, or to otherwise put pressure on people.   Look at the FBI during Hoover's reign. They used all sorts of information on citizens to further "their" own agenda.  They used it against political rivals, against community leaders (like MLK), and other people in social movements.
 
2013-08-21 03:20:50 PM  

Outrageous Muff: BafflerMeal: DROxINxTHExWIND: Outrageous Muff: BafflerMeal: 1.  NSA et al collects data w/o warrants
2.  finds something domestic
3.  hands over poison data to domestic
4.  4th amendment violation

"Posion" data that can't be used as evidence in any court. So no 4th Amendment violation.


Check out this guy, who missed the article about local law enforcement officers using NSA gathered intelligence and lying about the source. Somebody less lazy than me, please provide him with a link.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/dea-and-nsa-team-intelligence- la undering

On yes, a organization that thinks all media is fair use and there should be no protection for individual's ideas because the collective good is more important.



A brilliant straw man.  Flail moar.
 
2013-08-21 03:21:03 PM  

midigod: The NSA themselves acknowledge thousands of those abuses.


THAT is real news. Although the fact that they keep those numbers and ran an internal investigation points more to "normal bureaucracy" than "diabolical big brother agency," but it's disturbing that they don't have to share those numbers with the Congressmen who authorize the program. They should see how often, and how badly, it messes up as part of their decision making.
 
2013-08-21 03:21:27 PM  
Has anyone mentioned how allies like the UK's GCHQ collects large caches of emails and other data, and then sends it neatly packaged to NSA and DIA? That way NSA can claim they didn't "collect" the information.

Nor is this news. James Bamford reported on all this over ten years ago.
 
2013-08-21 03:21:39 PM  

Lando Lincoln: We're not talking about governments spying on each other.


No, you're talking about a subject you only know have the side off, and when you are told it you dismiss it because the "government is evil and lies to us". You think a democratic government that has secrets is evil, yet you cheer China and Russia for defending "freedoms".
 
2013-08-21 03:22:42 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: mediablitz: HypnozombieX:  It's the whole reason that the internet was released to the masses to begin with. To have another dimension in which developed countries could dominate. The good news is that they didn't think their clever plan all the way through. Oh yeah,
fark the NSA

There's paranoia, then there is PARANOIA...

Yeah, next he'll be saying the internet was invented and given to the world by DARPA.


If I could go back in time, I would change their name to the Defense Enhanced Research Projects Agency.

Strictly for entertainment purposes.
 
2013-08-21 03:23:01 PM  

T-Servo: K's GCHQ collects large caches of emails and other data, and then sends it neatly packaged to NSA and DIA? That way NSA can claim they didn't "collect" the information.

Nor is this news. James Bamford reported on all this over ten years ago.



Yep.  The FISA and foreign service intel has been bypassing the 4th for a good long while now.
 
2013-08-21 03:23:09 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: My question was an opportunity. A cool person who feels they have more information would respond to let me know what they think I don't know. But an old douchebag will use it as an opportunity to suggest that they're superior becauuse of their knowledge, as they fail to support their claim.


Yes, your "1984" comment was meant to foment conversation. CLEARLY.

I'm not explaining data collection from my tablet. Educate yourself.
 
2013-08-21 03:23:49 PM  
nmrsnr:
We need Inigo Montoya up in here. "Illegal" does not mean "I don't like it." I do not support illegal spying, but as of right now none of what has been reported on by the press has mentioned any law breaking, just that the NSA has the capability of intercepting and reading lots of information which they do not do until they have an approved warrant from a judge.

lying to congress is a crime
 
2013-08-21 03:23:49 PM  

mediablitz: Nana's Vibrator: When we hear about intercepting credible threats, where the f*ck did you think it came from?  A guy hiding in a bathroom stall with his feet up?

Like the Al Qaeda "conference call"? That kind of "hearing about credible threats"?


Well, yeah, but that wasn't a guy in a bathroom stall writing on toilet paper.  He was in the drop-ceiling and translated the whole conference call on a ceiling tile.  He actually smuggled the whole tile out of Yemen in one piece saying he was a hunchback.  True Story.
 
2013-08-21 03:24:00 PM  

CrazyCracka420: Haha, sure they do *pats nmrsnr on the head*, sure they do.


Hooray, I was just talking about these yesterday and now I have a reason to post one:

www.visi.com
 
2013-08-21 03:24:09 PM  
Face it, you all think the government is lying to you. So no matter what they tell you, you will dismiss it as a lie.

Basically:
static.someecards.com
 
2013-08-21 03:24:47 PM  

T-Servo: Has anyone mentioned how allies like the UK's GCHQ collects large caches of emails and other data, and then sends it neatly packaged to NSA and DIA? That way NSA can claim they didn't "collect" the information.

Nor is this news. James Bamford reported on all this over ten years ago.


Typical liberal. Believing 'facts' and 'reality' over anything the media says.
 
2013-08-21 03:24:59 PM  
Only 10% of the prison population is innocent, so it is all good, right? Rights? What the hell are those?

Gobama, go sheeple. You guys cried bloody murder because under Bush there were rumors if you took out bomb making books in a library for might be reported. Not a single incident I can remember hearing about. Obama? Record everyone's telephone and Internet traffic, no problem. Sick the IRS and EPA on your political enemies, no problem. Americans killed overseas because of screw ups? Who cares....

Hippiecrits man, big time.
 
2013-08-21 03:25:20 PM  

MadMattressMack: redheads when looking for pr4ns


Ginger Prawns?
 
2013-08-21 03:26:08 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: mediablitz: HypnozombieX:  It's the whole reason that the internet was released to the masses to begin with. To have another dimension in which developed countries could dominate. The good news is that they didn't think their clever plan all the way through. Oh yeah,
fark the NSA

There's paranoia, then there is PARANOIA...

Yeah, next he'll be saying the internet was invented and given to the world by DARPA.


So they worked with universities to create the internet with the evil plan that they could then track everyone?

That's what you are going with?
 
2013-08-21 03:26:18 PM  
Due to the invention of Google toilet Internet, cameras have been placed to observe your shiatty data uploads to prevent piracy.
i.imgur.com
 
2013-08-21 03:26:30 PM  

Voiceofreason01: lying to congress is a crime


Oh, you talking about Clapper? If you want to go after him, be my guest, the NSA, however, didn't lie to Congress, since they already knew the answer when they asked him the question.
 
2013-08-21 03:26:42 PM  

midigod: The NSA themselves acknowledge thousands of those abuses.


From your link: "The NSA audit obtained by The Post, dated May 2012, counted 2,776 incidents in the preceding 12 months of unauthorized collection, storage, access to or distribution of legally protected communications. Most were unintended. Many involved failures of due diligence or violations of standard operating procedure. The most serious incidents included a violation of a court order and unauthorized use of data about more than 3,000 Americans and green-card holders."

I hate to tell you this, but if you look at any situation where people are collecting confidential data on you (hospitals, credit card companies, ISPs), you're going to see large numbers of violations. Any time you employ human beings to manage confidential data, there are going to be violations.

The question is what the institution is doing about it, and what other solutions are available.

Just out of curiosity - can anyone in this thread think of a solution? One where we collect all the intelligence we need? I don't think public oversight is realistic in this context - this stuff needs to be kept secret.
 
2013-08-21 03:27:20 PM  
NSA: We try to only spy on foreign targets, but get the occasional US citizen. Latest Leak: We tap into about 75% of US internet traffic and set our own filters with no oversight to worry about

Subby both those things can be true. AT&T "taps" into their lines to it doesn't mean AT&T is listening in to call those conversations.
 
2013-08-21 03:27:44 PM  

Outrageous Muff: No, you're talking about a subject you only know have the side off, and when you are told it you dismiss it because the "government is evil and lies to us". You think a democratic government that has secrets is evil, yet you cheer China and Russia for defending "freedoms".


No, I don't think that a government that has secrets is evil. When did I cheer China and Russia for defending "freedoms?"

I'm talking to a crazy person, aren't I. Dag nabbit.
 
2013-08-21 03:28:09 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Al_Ed: Rand's lacy underwear: Now imagine what we haven't heard about.

As someone who used to be in this line of work, this was the first thing outta my mouth when the story originally broke.

I don't want to be THAT guy, but I remember in all of the "Truther" threads when people like me suggested that maybe the Bush administration knew more or even were complicit, the argument against it was, "the governement is incapable of that sort of efficiency".


/I guess they've been training


Which trutherism do you mean?  The one where Bush ignored the warning so he could get the wars he wanted.  Or that one where government agent actively planted the charges to do a 'controlled' demolition of the towers?
 
2013-08-21 03:28:11 PM  
And as this thread goes on I get an AP news alert: NSA collected thousands of US communications with no connection to terrorism.

But hey, just because they can doesn't mean they are right? They're only spying on terrorists, been doing it for years, nothing to see here.
 
2013-08-21 03:30:04 PM  

nmrsnr: Again, the US government has the capability to spy on you. This will never change.


Your posts over the past weeks on this topic all echo the "nothing new here, not to worry, the good adults are in charge" line.  It is time to retake the test you display on your profile, where you characterize yourself as a left-leaning libertarian.  If your posts represent your views then truer answers and/or a better test would likely peg you as more authoritarian.
 
2013-08-21 03:30:10 PM  

js34603: And as this thread goes on I get an AP news alert: NSA collected thousands of US communications with no connection to terrorism.

But hey, just because they can doesn't mean they are right? They're only spying on terrorists, been doing it for years, nothing to see here.


Oh, very well. They have only been spying on terrorists and pre-terrorists.
 
2013-08-21 03:30:20 PM  

Thunderpipes: Only 10% of the prison population is innocent, so it is all good, right? Rights? What the hell are those?

Gobama, go sheeple. You guys cried bloody murder because under Bush there were rumors if you took out bomb making books in a library for might be reported. Not a single incident I can remember hearing about. Obama? Record everyone's telephone and Internet traffic, no problem. Sick the IRS and EPA on your political enemies, no problem. Americans killed overseas because of screw ups? Who cares....

Hippiecrits man, big time.


I guess you don't notice all the liberals saying this is wrong. Why would that be? Doesn't fit your need for confirmation bias?

And for the last time, OBAMA DIDN'T AUTHORIZE THIS! Congress passed the law. Obama isn't a dictator.

Keep on with your "I'm SO above it all" bullshiat if you like. You just look childish.
 
2013-08-21 03:31:01 PM  
Is [Obvious] tag on holiday this week?   Or is it just being detained by UK customs agents?
 
2013-08-21 03:31:15 PM  

nmrsnr: Oh, you talking about Clapper? If you want to go after him, be my guest, the NSA, however, didn't lie to Congress, since they already knew the answer when they asked him the question.


That doesn't negate a lie. If you saw me smack somebody and then you asked me if I just smacked somebody and I said, "No, I didn't," that doesn't mean I was not lying.
 
2013-08-21 03:31:48 PM  

mediablitz: DROxINxTHExWIND: My question was an opportunity. A cool person who feels they have more information would respond to let me know what they think I don't know. But an old douchebag will use it as an opportunity to suggest that they're superior becauuse of their knowledge, as they fail to support their claim.

Yes, your "1984" comment was meant to foment conversation. CLEARLY.

I'm not explaining data collection from my tablet. Educate yourself.



Mining the comments for jokes to justify your douchbaggery is weak. Any dumbass can walk around claiming to know shiat while citing nothing. But, to do it with an air of superiority makes it a little more special.
 
2013-08-21 03:32:21 PM  

nmrsnr: Voiceofreason01: lying to congress is a crime

Oh, you talking about Clapper? If you want to go after him, be my guest, the NSA, however, didn't lie to Congress, since they already knew the answer when they asked him the question.


I'm embarrassed whenever anyone trots out the "Clapper lied!!!" silliness. His response is online, in PDF form. He misunderstood a question. He's really old. He clarified as soon as he realized he misunderstood.
 
2013-08-21 03:32:22 PM  

Thunderpipes: Only 10% of the prison population is innocent, so it is all good, right? Rights? What the hell are those?

Gobama, go sheeple. You guys cried bloody murder because under Bush there were rumors if you took out bomb making books in a library for might be reported. Not a single incident I can remember hearing about. Obama? Record everyone's telephone and Internet traffic, no problem. Sick the IRS and EPA on your political enemies, no problem. Americans killed overseas because of screw ups? Who cares....

Hippiecrits man, big time.


You're a farking idiot (as usual).  Liberals (like myself) who voted (reluctantly) for Obama are just as upset as conservatives.  There's conservatives who are fascist boot lickers who also defend or marginalize these spying programs.

nmrsnr:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a337/crazycracka420/gofyourelf_zps d2 ff1e10.gif

I already know the NSA is spying on us illegally, they've admitted it, and I have firsthand knowledge.  Keep apologizing for the government stepping all over your rights. I'm sure all the men and women who bravely defended your freedoms are saluting patriotic Americans like yourself who willingly give up those freedoms.  Go fark yourself.
 
2013-08-21 03:33:11 PM  
75% of the internet? Damn! That's a LOT of porn.
 
2013-08-21 03:33:13 PM  

mediablitz: So they worked with universities to create the internet with the evil plan that they could then track everyone?


And you're saying the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency often does things simply out of the goodness of its heart and has little or no interest in defense?
 
2013-08-21 03:33:26 PM  
Yes yes, you should trust the NSA because they would never lie to you.

Ask the CIA, they'll totally vouch for them.
 
2013-08-21 03:33:36 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: mediablitz: DROxINxTHExWIND: My question was an opportunity. A cool person who feels they have more information would respond to let me know what they think I don't know. But an old douchebag will use it as an opportunity to suggest that they're superior becauuse of their knowledge, as they fail to support their claim.

Yes, your "1984" comment was meant to foment conversation. CLEARLY.

I'm not explaining data collection from my tablet. Educate yourself.


Mining the comments for jokes to justify your douchbaggery is weak. Any dumbass can walk around claiming to know shiat while citing nothing. But, to do it with an air of superiority makes it a little more special.


So you know NOTHING about the subject, and you're butthurt because you are ignorant AND unwilling to do your own research?

Nice. Keep whining.
 
2013-08-21 03:33:45 PM  

draypresct: midigod: The NSA themselves acknowledge thousands of those abuses.

From your link: "The NSA audit obtained by The Post, dated May 2012, counted 2,776 incidents in the preceding 12 months of unauthorized collection, storage, access to or distribution of legally protected communications. Most were unintended. Many involved failures of due diligence or violations of standard operating procedure. The most serious incidents included a violation of a court order and unauthorized use of data about more than 3,000 Americans and green-card holders."

I hate to tell you this, but if you look at any situation where people are collecting confidential data on you (hospitals, credit card companies, ISPs), you're going to see large numbers of violations. Any time you employ human beings to manage confidential data, there are going to be violations.

The question is what the institution is doing about it, and what other solutions are available.

Just out of curiosity - can anyone in this thread think of a solution? One where we collect all the intelligence we need? I don't think public oversight is realistic in this context - this stuff needs to be kept secret.


"All the intelligence [the NSA] need[s]" is definitely under dispute as well. That was a pretty neat little verbal trick you tried to take it off the table with though.
 
2013-08-21 03:34:35 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: 75% of the internet? Damn! That's a LOT of porn.


Exactly. On the other hand, I bet their PornTube site has all the best videos!
 
2013-08-21 03:35:38 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: mediablitz: So they worked with universities to create the internet with the evil plan that they could then track everyone?

And you're saying the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency often does things simply out of the goodness of its heart and has little or no interest in defense?


I'm saying you are claiming a government agency had AMAZING future knowldge powers. Hell, they foresaw Facebook from simple network code!

You are making a leap so fanciful, Mary Poppins applauds...
 
2013-08-21 03:35:55 PM  

wingnut396: DROxINxTHExWIND: Al_Ed: Rand's lacy underwear: Now imagine what we haven't heard about.

As someone who used to be in this line of work, this was the first thing outta my mouth when the story originally broke.

I don't want to be THAT guy, but I remember in all of the "Truther" threads when people like me suggested that maybe the Bush administration knew more or even were complicit, the argument against it was, "the governement is incapable of that sort of efficiency".


/I guess they've been training

Which trutherism do you mean?  The one where Bush ignored the warning so he could get the wars he wanted.  Or that one where government agent actively planted the charges to do a 'controlled' demolition of the towers?



The one where they allowed it to happen...but with that said, WTC7. Really? Ok, ok, please don't flame me. I'm not going there today.
 
2013-08-21 03:36:10 PM  
The real danger in all of this unprecedented spying is that those running the machine use it to dig up dirt on Supreme Court Justices, Attorneys General, Senators, etc etc.

This is how J Edgar Hoover maintained his power for so long, by holding dirt on everyone. Don't play ball? Forget Lewinsky, we have a new method now, the Spitzer - where we leak wiretap info to the NYT and let them out you as using an escort service - can't have you digging into all the dirty money that is Wall Street.

Compromised emails and internet use would explain why Congress and SCOTUS went completely insane about the same time the new NSA toys came online.

Only question is, who is actually in charge now?
 
2013-08-21 03:37:36 PM  

mediablitz: I'm embarrassed whenever anyone trots out the "Clapper lied!!!" silliness. His response is online, in PDF form. He misunderstood a question. He's really old. He clarified as soon as he realized he misunderstood.


I'm embarrassed to see the sheer level of lunacy of your ball-gargling defense of him.

"Come on, he's OLD and when asked a direct question under oath he said "NO" instead of "YES".  Honest mistake !!"

LOL
 
2013-08-21 03:38:01 PM  

mediablitz: DROxINxTHExWIND: mediablitz: DROxINxTHExWIND: My question was an opportunity. A cool person who feels they have more information would respond to let me know what they think I don't know. But an old douchebag will use it as an opportunity to suggest that they're superior becauuse of their knowledge, as they fail to support their claim.

Yes, your "1984" comment was meant to foment conversation. CLEARLY.

I'm not explaining data collection from my tablet. Educate yourself.


Mining the comments for jokes to justify your douchbaggery is weak. Any dumbass can walk around claiming to know shiat while citing nothing. But, to do it with an air of superiority makes it a little more special.

So you know NOTHING about the subject, and you're butthurt because you are ignorant AND unwilling to do your own research?

Nice. Keep whining.



Meh. I asked you to tell me whatyou know that proves i was uninformed. you responded with nothing but more insults. And I see its a pattern with you in the thread. Nothing added. Just one, "I can't believe you don't know what i know" comment after another. It comes off as pretty insecure. But, we're way off topic, now. Take care.
 
2013-08-21 03:38:51 PM  
This is where these sorts of conversations always devolve...

Later, 'tards.
 
2013-08-21 03:38:56 PM  

vpb: Headline: We tap into 75% of US internet traffic.

TFA: The system has the capacity to reach roughly 75% of all U.S. Internet traffic

Having the capacity to do something is not the same thing as doing it.  We have the capacity to nuke Chicago, but that doesn't mean that we have already done it.

This sort of straw man is typical of these NSA "spying" stories.



The Air Force buys missiles with the intent to aim them at our enemies.  The fact that they could theoretically be targeted inside the country is coincidental.

Its far more worrisome that the NSA would feel the need to set up an infrastructure that would be capable of monitoring such a huge fraction of internal US internet traffic.  Infrastructure like that would need to be wired into network interchanges all across the country.  Its not something they could simply re-target at a foreign state as the need arises (as is the case with your missile analogy).  At some point, somebody at the NSA (actually it must have been a lot of people) sat down and decided that they needed to build a massive domestic spying infrastructure.  If that mentality doesn't concern you, then either you're directly benefiting from the NSA's actions or -- more likely -- have little knowledge of the history of abusive governments.
 
2013-08-21 03:39:19 PM  
Step 1: NSA convinces people they can spy on any piece of data.
Step 2: Fabricate evidence which never has to be made public.
Step 3: Arrests and convictions of child pornographers and terrorists up 10,000 percent!
 
2013-08-21 03:41:15 PM  

Ned Stark: Just out of curiosity - can anyone in this thread think of a solution? One where we collect all the intelligence we need? I don't think public oversight is realistic in this context - this stuff needs to be kept secret.

"All the intelligence [the NSA] need[s]" is definitely under dispute as well. That was a pretty neat little verbal trick you tried to take it off the table with though.


I'm sorry - I don't understand what you are saying. Are you trying to imply that we (the United States as a country and we as citizens of this country) don't need intelligence (i.e. information)?

I really don't get what you're saying. I meant no "verbal trick" in my post.
 
2013-08-21 03:42:29 PM  
Some dude printed a bunch of these signs....

i.imgur.com
Just how far are people willing to bend over?
 
2013-08-21 03:42:39 PM  

mediablitz: I'm saying you are claiming a government agency had AMAZING future knowldge powers. Hell, they foresaw Facebook from simple network code!


Yeah, back in 1985 you'd need special powers to know most information might be sent electronically in the future, and recognize it as something to be tapped for security purposes. I'm sure DARPA was more interested in putting on bake sales than anything like that.
 
2013-08-21 03:43:10 PM  

Apik0r0s: Only question is, who is actually in charge now?


It's not the NOW I'm worried about, it's the future.

I don't believe for a second all this data will remain secure.  Too many contractors and too much value on the info.  If Snowden could get all this info at his fingertips there's bound to be someone else who could do the same and SELL it.

And the NSA would hush it up because they would be too embarrassed
 
2013-08-21 03:45:51 PM  

nmrsnr: CrazyCracka420: Haha, sure they do *pats nmrsnr on the head*, sure they do.

Hooray, I was just talking about these yesterday and now I have a reason to post one:

[www.visi.com image 500x75]


Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary proof.  Especially when the Extraordinary claim would require an Extraordinary response -- I'm not gonna encourage someone raid the NSA, arrest everyone, and burn the building down unless and until you show something more serious than "Leaks suggest they can do blah".

Yeah, I know; to a believer, that just sounds like sheeple bleating.  But seriously, you're talking about stuff that should require an aggressive, if not armed, response from the public, so forgive us if we're not quite ready to grab our pitchforks and torches and march on Washington based on all the other crap out there.  Especially after all the X-Files "Illuminati Area 51 Booga Booga!" crap spewed.
 
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