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(Tech Dirt)   NSA: We try to only spy on foreign targets, but get the occasional US citizen. Latest Leak: We tap into about 75% of US internet traffic and set our own filters with no oversight to worry about   (techdirt.com) divider line 322
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4201 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Aug 2013 at 2:41 PM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-21 02:58:59 PM

Al_Ed: DROxINxTHExWIND: I don't want to be THAT guy, but I remember in all of the "Truther" threads when people like me suggested that maybe the Bush administration knew more or even were complicit, the argument against it was, "the governement is incapable of that sort of efficiency".


/I guess they've been training

As has been mentioned, the actual usefulness of what data has actually been collected I'd imagine is questionable...simply from sheer volume. But that doesn't make the act of collection proper or legal.


Right, because people always do things over a period of years that don't work and aren't useful to them. Just like the question of whether steroids work.
 
2013-08-21 02:59:20 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Al_Ed: Rand's lacy underwear: Now imagine what we haven't heard about.

As someone who used to be in this line of work, this was the first thing outta my mouth when the story originally broke.

I don't want to be THAT guy, but I remember in all of the "Truther" threads when people like me suggested that maybe the Bush administration knew more or even were complicit, the argument against it was, "the governement is incapable of that sort of efficiency".


/I guess they've been training


I remember when the NSA scandal first broke, venting my outrage to my mother over crepes at iHop.
Given how liberal she is, I figured she'd be outraged right along with me.

Imagine my surprise when she tells me that "back in the day" she helped build some of the equipment
that enabled the NSA to do what they do and that one of my uncles, who was in the Army and later
was a DoD and DHS contractor, was an actual "listener".

GAH! I couldn't believe it.

It's so sad. It's come to the point these days where if I have to search for something that might even
have the slightest chance of seeming remotely "flaggable", I rack my brain thinking of an alternate
way to search for it without using any potential "hot" words.
 
2013-08-21 02:59:35 PM

mraudacia: guess you havent heard about that 2 billion dollar data hub they built... john oliver did a good piece on it, its on youtube.

try to keep up grandpa.


A data hub, next to housing development, that was publicly announced as a data hub by the government. I don't know if you are aware, but Big Data is the new thing and housing the servers for an organization as large as the US Government would require a large building. But you keep thinking someone in some shadowy room is logging all the cock pics you sext to people.

Snarfangel: Which is why they can't waste time getting warrants.


The NSA does not need warrants since foreign nationals do not have the same rights as Americans. Deal with it.

However regulations say that all NSA collected data can not be used against a US citizen and that all dealings with citizens are handed over to the FBI who does get warrants. But don't let that keep you from your Jackbooted Governments Brown Shirt fantasies.
 
2013-08-21 02:59:55 PM

Al_Ed: DROxINxTHExWIND: I don't want to be THAT guy, but I remember in all of the "Truther" threads when people like me suggested that maybe the Bush administration knew more or even were complicit, the argument against it was, "the governement is incapable of that sort of efficiency".


/I guess they've been training

As has been mentioned, the actual usefulness of what data has actually been collected I'd imagine is questionable...simply from sheer volume. But that doesn't make the act of collection proper or legal.


You need a better understanding of the term "collection" if you are going to claim it is illegal. The law passed by Congress makes it legal.
 
2013-08-21 03:00:39 PM
As expected.  About a month ago a person from the TLAs told me about the first all hands briefing they had after Snowden.  The person said it was going to get 'much worse'.

/welcomes all of you to the party.
/better late than never
/can I take your coat?
 
2013-08-21 03:00:49 PM

cameroncrazy1984: vpb: Headline: We tap into 75% of US internet traffic.

TFA: The system has the capacity to reach roughly 75% of all U.S. Internet traffic

Having the capacity to do something is not the same thing as doing it.  We have the capacity to nuke Chicago, but that doesn't mean that we have already done it.

This sort of straw man is typical of these NSA "spying" stories.

I came in here to say this. Jesus christ, you people are tech-illiterate.


Why would they create a system that they have no intention of using? Why would a guy with 1984 in his name not be worried about the possibilities?
 
2013-08-21 03:00:55 PM
When we hear about intercepting credible threats, where the f*ck did you think it came from?  A guy hiding in a bathroom stall with his feet up?
 
2013-08-21 03:01:01 PM

CrazyCracka420: Obvious tag on vacation?  Where have you people been the last 10 years?


I think the real story here is how many people apparently had no idea the NSA was the NSA.
 
2013-08-21 03:01:25 PM

skinink: [farm3.staticflickr.com image 300x187]


Love that movie, so far ahead of its time.
 
2013-08-21 03:02:05 PM

Kit Fister: PJ-: My personal favorite one is 'well if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to be worried about'. So if i'm doing nothing wrong, I should have no problem with being treated like a criminal?

Gee, people who are against gun registration, arbitrary gun bans, and many other of the proposals floated for gun control say the same damn thing and are called paranoid.

NOT SO FUNNY NOW, IS IT?!


I bet you think that made sense.

Cuz it didn't.
 
2013-08-21 03:02:43 PM
Will the NSA please send me an extra life for Candy Crush?

/I'm surprised Google hasn't had me assassinated yet because of my search history.
 
2013-08-21 03:02:52 PM
Also the FBI and other spying agencies certainly would never illegally spy on citizens, it's not like Hoover used this information for furthering political agendas in this country.

Seriously, you unpatriotic spineless farks who support this illegal spying on our own citizens, are pretty farking ignorant to our own country's history.
 
2013-08-21 03:03:25 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: cameroncrazy1984: vpb: Headline: We tap into 75% of US internet traffic.

TFA: The system has the capacity to reach roughly 75% of all U.S. Internet traffic

Having the capacity to do something is not the same thing as doing it.  We have the capacity to nuke Chicago, but that doesn't mean that we have already done it.

This sort of straw man is typical of these NSA "spying" stories.

I came in here to say this. Jesus christ, you people are tech-illiterate.

Why would they create a system that they have no intention of using? Why would a guy with 1984 in his name not be worried about the possibilities?


Jesus. Talk about tech illiterate.
 
2013-08-21 03:03:33 PM
 It's the whole reason that the internet was released to the masses to begin with. To have another dimension in which developed countries could dominate. The good news is that they didn't think their clever plan all the way through. Oh yeah,
fark the NSA
 
2013-08-21 03:03:42 PM

Outrageous Muff: mraudacia: guess you havent heard about that 2 billion dollar data hub they built... john oliver did a good piece on it, its on youtube.

try to keep up grandpa.

A data hub, next to housing development, that was publicly announced as a data hub by the government. I don't know if you are aware, but Big Data is the new thing and housing the servers for an organization as large as the US Government would require a large building. But you keep thinking someone in some shadowy room is logging all the cock pics you sext to people.

Snarfangel: Which is why they can't waste time getting warrants.

The NSA does not need warrants since foreign nationals do not have the same rights as Americans. Deal with it.

However regulations say that all NSA collected data can not be used against a US citizen and that all dealings with citizens are handed over to the FBI who does get warrants. But don't let that keep you from your Jackbooted Governments Brown Shirt fantasies.


And... fruit of the poison tree there.

1.  NSA et al collects data w/o warrants
2.  finds something domestic
3.  hands over poison data to domestic
4.  4th amendment violation

Of course this has been going on for a loooong time.
 
2013-08-21 03:04:00 PM

Al_Ed: As has been mentioned, the actual usefulness of what data has actually been collected I'd imagine is questionable...simply from sheer volume.


The rationale from the CIA themselves is that they collect and store all data on everyone indefinitely so if someone becomes interesting to them later they can go back and see everything they were doing in the months or years before.

And this is no longer uncertain, they have said this in public. The notion there is some uncertainty about it is a media fabrication. One which certain people are all to eager to grab on to.
 
2013-08-21 03:04:13 PM

Ned Stark: So instead of speaking up now when its merely a moral outrage we should let em do whatever they want for a decade until the technology improves enough for it to be a practical outrage as well?

Any reason why?


Can you think of a reason 1)Why the government would collect US citizen data without a warrant. 2)Then arrest people on that data. 3)Then find a judge willing to convict you on that data. 4)Then finding an appeals court to uphold that verdict. 5)Find another appeals court to uphold that verdict. 6)The US Supreme Court to uphold that verdict. 7)A populace that would allow such a violation.
 
2013-08-21 03:04:56 PM

J. Frank Parnell: AGremlin: Hello...just stay in the 25% of the internet they're not monitoring. Duhhh?

That's reserved for the illuminati pedophile ring.


The Vatican has it's own internet?  That's swank.
 
2013-08-21 03:05:32 PM

Nana's Vibrator: When we hear about intercepting credible threats, where the f*ck did you think it came from?  A guy hiding in a bathroom stall with his feet up?


No. A law enforcement official with a warrant, either from a military or civilian court. That was always my guess, anyway.
 
2013-08-21 03:05:55 PM

mediablitz: You need a better understanding of the term "collection" if you are going to claim it is illegal. The law passed by Congress makes it legal.


The law passed by Congress is superseded by the constitution, and I would hope for some good precedents when someone with pockets challenges something.
 
2013-08-21 03:06:30 PM

cameroncrazy1984: vpb: Headline: We tap into 75% of US internet traffic.

TFA: The system has the capacity to reach roughly 75% of all U.S. Internet traffic

Having the capacity to do something is not the same thing as doing it.  We have the capacity to nuke Chicago, but that doesn't mean that we have already done it.

This sort of straw man is typical of these NSA "spying" stories.

I came in here to say this. Jesus christ, you people are tech-illiterate.


The problem with government confessions is that they never reveal all that they're doing and never all at once. It's like when a teenager has just totaled your car and you're trying to drag the facts out of him, bit by horrifying bit: "Just a fender-bender, it will buff right out" * half an hour later * "yeah, we drove it over a cliff. It's completely wrecked." The NSA has a long history of being well . . . . less than candid about their unconstitutional activities. You have to consider the source.
 
2013-08-21 03:07:06 PM
Government agency installs equipment at private facilities to monitor private citizens' "metadata", with no oversight and without voluntarily disclosing the fact that they're doing it or the particulars of it... and everyone's OK with this.  Very good.   I'm just a paranoid guntoting survivalist teabagger conservatard for being concerned about this.

The fact that the government can just mandate private companies comply with this  doesn't trouble anyone either?   Did AT&T volunteer for operation Blarney?   Or were they forced to?  Were they paid to participate?  Well, whatever, its all OK, because the government 'cares' about us, and will give us all health care and food and free abortions and lots of marijuana and same sex marriages.
 
2013-08-21 03:07:34 PM

BafflerMeal: 1.  NSA et al collects data w/o warrants
2.  finds something domestic
3.  hands over poison data to domestic
4.  4th amendment violation


"Posion" data that can't be used as evidence in any court. So no 4th Amendment violation.
 
2013-08-21 03:08:20 PM
 
2013-08-21 03:09:12 PM

mediablitz: DROxINxTHExWIND: cameroncrazy1984: vpb: Headline: We tap into 75% of US internet traffic.

TFA: The system has the capacity to reach roughly 75% of all U.S. Internet traffic

Having the capacity to do something is not the same thing as doing it.  We have the capacity to nuke Chicago, but that doesn't mean that we have already done it.

This sort of straw man is typical of these NSA "spying" stories.

I came in here to say this. Jesus christ, you people are tech-illiterate.

Why would they create a system that they have no intention of using? Why would a guy with 1984 in his name not be worried about the possibilities?

Jesus. Talk about tech illiterate.



My question was an opportunity. A cool person who feels they have more information would respond to let me know what they think  I don't know. But an old douchebag will use it as an opportunity to suggest that they're superior becauuse of their knowledge, as they fail to support their claim.
 
2013-08-21 03:09:19 PM
Hackers and advertisement companies have a access to a higher percentage of the internet, I think the NSA can do better.
 
2013-08-21 03:10:18 PM

Outrageous Muff: Do you tinfoil-wearing internet pirvacy people understand the logistical problems that arise from recording that much data? Much less the time and manpower it would take to look at at and catalog it for anything?


You don't understand the true purpose of this. It is not preventative but retaliatory. Someone pisses off a politician, you can go root throuhg all of their files
 
2013-08-21 03:10:27 PM
Phineas, I'm a liberal who isn't scared of everything killing me (so I don't drive a big truck, don't cling to guns or the bible) and I take your concerns just as seriously as you do.  So this certainly can cross the political aisle.

It really comes down to two or three camps:
"are you a nationalist who supports the government 100% and thinks people who criticize it are unpatriotic?"
"Are you a person who believes government will overstep it's bounds and the citizens need to keep them in check"
"Are you the cynical type who doesn't think it's important or that the government cares what they personally are doing"
 
2013-08-21 03:10:58 PM

nmrsnr: Again, the US government has the capability to spy on you. This will never change. The questions are 1) do they have the legal authority to spy on you? 2a) Are they abusing that authority? 2b) Are they breaking the law and doing it anyway?

The answer to 1 seems to be mostly no, barring unusual circumstance, and while you may have suspicions about the answers to 2a and/or 2b, so far all the "shocking news" has been about capability, which isn't actually all that new, and not about any actual abuses of that capability.


The NSA themselves acknowledge thousands of those abuses.

Outrageous Muff: Lando Lincoln: It's not like they were illegally doing this years ago and once they were found out to be doing it, just changed the laws to make it legal.

No, no, our government would never do anything like that.

Guess what. Governments have been spying on each other since the one cave found another cave and wanted to know what they were up too.  Your complete lack of understanding is this basic realm of international relations is stunning, but not unexpected.


He wasn't talking about governments spying on each other.  He was talking about government spying on their own citizens.  How often that happens is not an equivocation of it being proper.
 
2013-08-21 03:11:06 PM

Outrageous Muff: BafflerMeal: 1.  NSA et al collects data w/o warrants
2.  finds something domestic
3.  hands over poison data to domestic
4.  4th amendment violation

"Posion" data that can't be used as evidence in any court. So no 4th Amendment violation.



Check out this guy, who missed the article about local law enforcement officers using NSA gathered intelligence and lying about the source. Somebody less lazy than me, please provide him with a link.
 
2013-08-21 03:11:06 PM
Next stage: We record and data-mine absolutely everything in every electronic form of communication using super-computers programmed to look for suspicious key-words and patterns. But humans do not read more than a fraction of the data, after it is tagged by the computers for a human judgment and more complete surveillance if deemed useful.

In other words, we hardly know more about you than Facebook, Twitter, Google, your blog, your Mother's friends, your credit card company, your telephone company, your cable company, your bank, your school, your wife's Private Eye, and your official records know about you.

Well, apart from the kind of information that can only be obtained by sophisticated data-mining and which consists of secrets that you don't even know about yourself.

Your sudden interest in what the government knows about you is going on your permanent record, citizen.
 
2013-08-21 03:11:34 PM
I read an old book on propaganda years ago.  A lot of it had to do with the cold war.  Something always stuck with me.  Essentially it was an expansion of the phrase: 'guilty dog barks loudest'.  Or rather, accuse your enemies of doing what you are doing.

It's kind of like when one is cheating on their SO and think that the SO has found out so they go into complete 'accuse the other of what I've been doing' mode, hoping it will deflect accusations.

The US is constantly barking very loudly.
 
2013-08-21 03:12:51 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Outrageous Muff: BafflerMeal: 1.  NSA et al collects data w/o warrants
2.  finds something domestic
3.  hands over poison data to domestic
4.  4th amendment violation

"Posion" data that can't be used as evidence in any court. So no 4th Amendment violation.


Check out this guy, who missed the article about local law enforcement officers using NSA gathered intelligence and lying about the source. Somebody less lazy than me, please provide him with a link.


https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/dea-and-nsa-team-intelligence- la undering
 
2013-08-21 03:13:21 PM

Nemo's Brother: You don't understand the true purpose of this. It is not preventative but retaliatory. Someone pisses off a politician, you can go root throuhg all of their files


Their files? How do you think the world works? Politicians hire PI's all the time. You honestly think the government spends all day working to keep you down?
 
2013-08-21 03:13:28 PM
I'm curious... to those of you here who say "they aren't actually monitoring, they just have the capability to monitor", would you be as dismissive of this situation if the president had a different (LETTER) behind his name?

Be honest with yourselves.  I'm sure some of you actually would be as dismissive, but I'm equally sure that some or you would be very vocal about your displeasure.


/personally, I think it's bad no matter who's in charge
//but I try not to be a partisan idiot most of the time, too.
 
2013-08-21 03:14:26 PM

The Muthaship: Maybe sadder than the fact that the government is illegally spying on innocent Americans en mass, is how many of those citizens are making excuses for them.


CrazyCracka420: Also the FBI and other spying agencies certainly would never illegally spy on citizens, it's not like Hoover used this information for furthering political agendas in this country.

Seriously, you unpatriotic spineless farks who support this illegal spying on our own citizens, are pretty farking ignorant to our own country's history.


We need Inigo Montoya up in here. "Illegal" does not mean "I don't like it." I do not support illegal spying, but as of right now none of what has been reported on by the press has mentioned any law breaking, just that the NSA has the capability of intercepting and reading lots of information which they do not do until they have an approved warrant from a judge.
 
2013-08-21 03:14:47 PM

vpb: Headline: We tap into 75% of US internet traffic.

TFA: The system has the capacity to reach roughly 75% of all U.S. Internet traffic

Having the capacity to do something is not the same thing as doing it.  We have the capacity to nuke Chicago, but that doesn't mean that we have already done it.

This sort of straw man is typical of these NSA "spying" stories.


Yet. The word you are looking for is 'yet'. They wouldn't have the capacity to do a gotdamned thing if they didn't have the intention of using it.

Don't make excuses for this shiat. It is wholesaley (is that a word?) unAmerican.
 
2013-08-21 03:15:14 PM

Outrageous Muff: Ned Stark: So instead of speaking up now when its merely a moral outrage we should let em do whatever they want for a decade until the technology improves enough for it to be a practical outrage as well?

Any reason why?

Can you think of a reason 1)Why the government would collect US citizen data without a warrant. 2)Then arrest people on that data. 3)Then find a judge willing to convict you on that data. 4)Then finding an appeals court to uphold that verdict. 5)Find another appeals court to uphold that verdict. 6)The US Supreme Court to uphold that verdict. 7)A populace that would allow such a violation.


1) so the instant they decide to slap down any given citizen for any reason they can pull up the complete record of everything that person has ever done and go over it with a fine toothed comb matching actions to crimes and then hauling them off, or collecting reputation destroying breeches of mere taboo and making them public.
2)see 1.
3) hardly difficult. Perhaps not even nessecary becade, again, destroying a reputation can be enough.
4-5) irrelevant as fark
6)not at all implausible.
7)you, for a start.
 
2013-08-21 03:15:25 PM
Buckle up... Drudge dusted off the gif!

www.drudgereport.com
 
2013-08-21 03:15:37 PM

BafflerMeal: I read an old book on propaganda years ago.  A lot of it had to do with the cold war.  Something always stuck with me.  Essentially it was an expansion of the phrase: 'guilty dog barks loudest'.  Or rather, accuse your enemies of doing what you are doing.

It's kind of like when one is cheating on their SO and think that the SO has found out so they go into complete 'accuse the other of what I've been doing' mode, hoping it will deflect accusations.

The US is constantly barking very loudly.


It's a ruff world.
 
2013-08-21 03:15:56 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Nana's Vibrator: When we hear about intercepting credible threats, where the f*ck did you think it came from?  A guy hiding in a bathroom stall with his feet up?

No. A law enforcement official with a warrant, either from a military or civilian court. That was always my guess, anyway.


Being facetious?  No?  I wouldn't think it's possible that you have more faith in government than I do.
My thoughts 1) illegally/unconstitutionally obtained information 2) legal surveillance 3) legally obtained probable cause 4) legal warrant
I just don't think they randomly start spying on people.  They likely point themselves in the right direction with dirty info.

On top of that, enforcement doesn't have time to worry about every single citizen.  Petty criminals are likely found and ignored with whatever info they obtain.  But hey, if they want to know what porn I surf or why my fantasy football team is always in last place, I say let 'em.  When it gets out of line, they'll know about it.
 
2013-08-21 03:16:30 PM

Nemo's Brother: Outrageous Muff: Do you tinfoil-wearing internet pirvacy people understand the logistical problems that arise from recording that much data? Much less the time and manpower it would take to look at at and catalog it for anything?

You don't understand the true purpose of this. It is not preventative but retaliatory. Someone pisses off a politician, you can go root throuhg all of their files


That strategy worked for Nixon, for a little while. It backfired, though.
 
2013-08-21 03:16:39 PM

Nana's Vibrator: When we hear about intercepting credible threats, where the f*ck did you think it came from?  A guy hiding in a bathroom stall with his feet up?


Like the Al Qaeda "conference call"? That kind of "hearing about credible threats"?
 
2013-08-21 03:16:57 PM

BafflerMeal: DROxINxTHExWIND: Outrageous Muff: BafflerMeal: 1.  NSA et al collects data w/o warrants
2.  finds something domestic
3.  hands over poison data to domestic
4.  4th amendment violation

"Posion" data that can't be used as evidence in any court. So no 4th Amendment violation.


Check out this guy, who missed the article about local law enforcement officers using NSA gathered intelligence and lying about the source. Somebody less lazy than me, please provide him with a link.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/dea-and-nsa-team-intelligence- la undering


On yes, a organization that thinks all media is fair use and there should be no protection for individual's ideas because the collective good is more important.
 
2013-08-21 03:17:02 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Outrageous Muff: BafflerMeal: 1.  NSA et al collects data w/o warrants
2.  finds something domestic
3.  hands over poison data to domestic
4.  4th amendment violation

"Posion" data that can't be used as evidence in any court. So no 4th Amendment violation.


Check out this guy, who missed the article about local law enforcement officers using NSA gathered intelligence and lying about the source. Somebody less lazy than me, please provide him with a link.


They've been doing that since mid 2000's at least.  I remember reading stories about the information that was being gathered from the NSA was mainly used for domestic law enforcement, not to catch "turrists".
 
2013-08-21 03:17:11 PM

Outrageous Muff: Guess what. Governments have been spying on each other


We're not talking about governments spying on each other.
 
2013-08-21 03:17:29 PM

HypnozombieX:  It's the whole reason that the internet was released to the masses to begin with. To have another dimension in which developed countries could dominate. The good news is that they didn't think their clever plan all the way through. Oh yeah,
fark the NSA


There's paranoia, then there is PARANOIA...
 
2013-08-21 03:17:55 PM

nmrsnr: The Muthaship: Maybe sadder than the fact that the government is illegally spying on innocent Americans en mass, is how many of those citizens are making excuses for them.

CrazyCracka420: Also the FBI and other spying agencies certainly would never illegally spy on citizens, it's not like Hoover used this information for furthering political agendas in this country.

Seriously, you unpatriotic spineless farks who support this illegal spying on our own citizens, are pretty farking ignorant to our own country's history.

We need Inigo Montoya up in here. "Illegal" does not mean "I don't like it." I do not support illegal spying, but as of right now none of what has been reported on by the press has mentioned any law breaking, just that the NSA has the capability of intercepting and reading lots of information which they do not do until they have an approved warrant from a judge.


Haha, sure they do *pats nmrsnr on the head*, sure they do.
 
2013-08-21 03:19:12 PM

GanjSmokr: I'm curious... to those of you here who say "they aren't actually monitoring, they just have the capability to monitor", would you be as dismissive of this situation if the president had a different (LETTER) behind his name?

Be honest with yourselves.  I'm sure some of you actually would be as dismissive, but I'm equally sure that some or you would be very vocal about your displeasure.


/personally, I think it's bad no matter who's in charge
//but I try not to be a partisan idiot most of the time, too.



Presidente?
 
2013-08-21 03:19:43 PM

mediablitz: HypnozombieX:  It's the whole reason that the internet was released to the masses to begin with. To have another dimension in which developed countries could dominate. The good news is that they didn't think their clever plan all the way through. Oh yeah,
fark the NSA

There's paranoia, then there is PARANOIA...


Yeah, next he'll be saying the internet was invented and given to the world by DARPA.
 
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