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(Bleeding Cool)   When a US General called Superman a coward and a mass murderer to his face. And it's Lois Lane's dad   (bleedingcool.com) divider line 21
    More: Cool, Superman, Scott Snyder, superman comic  
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2638 clicks; posted to Geek » on 21 Aug 2013 at 7:53 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-21 08:04:07 AM
So we are all mass murderers. We could have gotten a gun and kill the dictator but we don't. It isn't because we can't. Killing people, whomever, is easy. Getting away with it is the hard part. Just because supes can do the getting away with it part more effectively doesn't make him more responsible.
 
2013-08-21 08:14:45 AM
Well that asshole was always chasing around the Hulk too, I think he just has gay panic over big strong men.
 
2013-08-21 08:33:34 AM
It's not as complicated as people are pretending it is.

Superman can rescue people from burning buildings, stop robberies, save kittens, kill alien invaders, and even prevent the odd nuclear war. Those are things everyone can agree are bad. They are events, they happen or don't.

Toppling a regime is something else entirely. Regimes are generally born out of the ideology of a group. Topple the leader and the group is still there. It might have been right to do but there are still thousands or more likely millions of people who wanted that regime in place. What does he do then when the next leader of that group rises up and takes over? At some point, Superman becomes judge/jury/executioner of the whole human race; that's the realm of some famous villains and that's a long way from being protector.
 
2013-08-21 08:46:48 AM
Red Son Superman tried it the rough way and found out he didn't want to put the whole world in a bottle. Superman can't go around ripping people's heads off even if they are dictators.
 
2013-08-21 08:59:54 AM

baufan2005: Red Son Superman tried it the rough way and found out he didn't want to put the whole world in a bottle. Superman can't go around ripping people's heads off even if they are dictators.


End of discussion. The only reason to rehash this idea is that DC wants to make it canon. But then again, when it comes to DC canon means nothing.
 
2013-08-21 09:06:33 AM

baufan2005: Red Son Superman tried it the rough way and found out he didn't want to put the whole world in a bottle. Superman can't go around ripping people's heads off even if they are dictators.


It's been deconstructed a thousand times why Superman doesn't fix everything. It generally comes down to the argument about God and Free Will. Unlike God, however, Superman did not create the MMulti verse and is another sentient being, albeit a really powerful one. In most iterations Superman tries to come off as a symbol of what humanity can achieve if we would be good and helpful to each other (undermined that every other Kryptonian is a dick)
Superman typically pitches in for stuff that ordinary people can't. Turning around the question, as a previous Farker did, makes us all murderers since all of us could have a breakdown like Oscar Schindler.
General Lane might seem to be asking for benevolent Darkseid.

A bigger question is why Batman doesn't just kill the Joker. (Answered beautifully in Under the Red Hood) Wayne is just a guy. Every time he takes the moral high road and doesn't kill the Joker, more innocents die. At what cost is this moral indulgence?
 
2013-08-21 09:07:56 AM

ampoliros: It's not as complicated as people are pretending it is.

Superman can rescue people from burning buildings, stop robberies, save kittens, kill alien invaders, and even prevent the odd nuclear war. Those are things everyone can agree are bad. They are events, they happen or don't.

Toppling a regime is something else entirely. Regimes are generally born out of the ideology of a group. Topple the leader and the group is still there. It might have been right to do but there are still thousands or more likely millions of people who wanted that regime in place. What does he do then when the next leader of that group rises up and takes over? At some point, Superman becomes judge/jury/executioner of the whole human race; that's the realm of some famous villains and that's a long way from being protector.


I've heard the slippery slope arguments before and I just don't buy 'em. Superman wouldn't need to kill Kim Jung Un, for example, He needs to simply "suggest" Un do a better job of feeding his people (as he rips a tank apart like its tissue paper). A few months, maybe a year later, "Those labor camps... they probably need to be shut down" as he makes origami cranes out of a battleship.

And ya know, worst case, if he had to kill 30 or 40 top-level leaders to save the lives of thousands,.. the math should be pretty simple.
 
2013-08-21 09:08:30 AM
I have to admit. Some times its good to see the Man of Steel get beaten down even by words. Have not read any of the New 52 but having a super hero get beaten usually leads to an interesting intersection. Saw some of those in the 90s Superman and Batman series as well as the JLA / JLU series.
 
2013-08-21 09:11:30 AM

Fano: A bigger question is why Batman doesn't just kill the Joker. (Answered beautifully in Under the Red Hood) Wayne is just a guy. Every time he takes the moral high road and doesn't kill the Joker, more innocents die. At what cost is this moral indulgence?


One of the best parts of that movie was Batman's explanation about why he wont kill the Joker even if the Joker deserves every bit of death.
 
2013-08-21 09:14:04 AM
If he goes and kills a dictator in a foreign country, Superman in all likelihood sparks a huge power struggle within the country and likely a civil war that would last years.  Many, many more people die than would just living under the said dictator.

The general obviously, and obliviously, seems to have forgotten that the US tried this idea in real life in Afghanistan and Iraq, and it turned out to be absolutely disastrous and resulted in far more human misery than anyone anticipated.

This kind of strategy is, and always will be, worthless neocon postering crap.
 
2013-08-21 09:14:34 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YDO8HR_2Xg Piss off, Lane. Kent was smacking around Japs and winning WWII when you weren't even a gleam in your father's eye.
 
2013-08-21 09:16:46 AM
I imagine the as the story moves along, Lane will be proven wrong. I read the first two issues of Superman Unchained. It's, er, okay so far.
 
2013-08-21 09:18:25 AM

yves0010: I have to admit. Some times its good to see the Man of Steel get beaten down even by words. Have not read any of the New 52 but having a super hero get beaten usually leads to an interesting intersection. Saw some of those in the 90s Superman and Batman series as well as the JLA / JLU series.


The arguments between Batman and Superman were good in the JLA/JLU series

yves0010: Fano: A bigger question is why Batman doesn't just kill the Joker. (Answered beautifully in Under the Red Hood) Wayne is just a guy. Every time he takes the moral high road and doesn't kill the Joker, more innocents die. At what cost is this moral indulgence?

One of the best parts of that movie was Batman's explanation about why he wont kill the Joker even if the Joker deserves every bit of death.


The scene was powerful because there were no cheats. Todd made a very good point on every level. And Batman's response was equally valid. Superman may be a god among ants, but Batman is a deranged man that puts on a costume and beats up crooks at night. His psyche probably would crumble if he decided to kill. Of course, he shot Darkseid, but....

Perhaps Lane is getting set up for the Superman vs the Elite answer.
 
2013-08-21 09:24:04 AM

Fano: The arguments between Batman and Superman were good in the JLA/JLU series


Those were always great and the whole "I just took a bullet for you! You can't talk" argument at the end of one of the episodes, Batman took a nuke to the face if I recall, was excellent.

Fano: The scene was powerful because there were no cheats. Todd made a very good point on every level. And Batman's response was equally valid. Superman may be a god among ants, but Batman is a deranged man that puts on a costume and beats up crooks at night. His psyche probably would crumble if he decided to kill. Of course, he shot Darkseid, but....

Perhaps Lane is getting set up for the Superman vs the Elite answer.


If they bring in Superman vs the Elite into the New 52... That might make the New 52 a little better. But then again, I can not argue if its good seeing I rarely read the comics to begin with.
 
2013-08-21 10:19:20 AM
I'm sure this has been explored many times in Elseworlds or Supreme or Marvelman but obviously if Kal-El starts with Best Korea it's just a matter of months until he shows up to put General Lane out of business followed by Marlboro and Coca-Cola. Lane sounds like a typical whiny teenager starting to become aware of the power and freedom his parents have with no inkling of the obligations and responsibilities.
 
2013-08-21 10:47:36 AM
Maybe, just maybe, you can't save lives by killing your enemies. Kill a dictator and another will take their place.

Killing isn't the answer, but when you're a hammer, yadda yadda.
 
2013-08-21 10:50:58 AM
Next: Doctor Manhattan slaps general Lane with his big blue Wang and says "nothing ever ends."
 
2013-08-21 11:27:38 AM

ampoliros: It's not as complicated as people are pretending it is.

Superman can rescue people from burning buildings, stop robberies, save kittens, kill alien invaders, and even prevent the odd nuclear war. Those are things everyone can agree are bad. They are events, they happen or don't.

Toppling a regime is something else entirely. Regimes are generally born out of the ideology of a group. Topple the leader and the group is still there. It might have been right to do but there are still thousands or more likely millions of people who wanted that regime in place. What does he do then when the next leader of that group rises up and takes over? At some point, Superman becomes judge/jury/executioner of the whole human race; that's the realm of some famous villains and that's a long way from being protector.


Pretty much this.  Also: that's ballsy coming from a member of a government who's famously toppled other governments in the name of "democracy".  Only to make a problem worse and then wipe their hands of it.
 
2013-08-21 11:29:05 AM

Fano: baufan2005: Red Son Superman tried it the rough way and found out he didn't want to put the whole world in a bottle. Superman can't go around ripping people's heads off even if they are dictators.

It's been deconstructed a thousand times why Superman doesn't fix everything. It generally comes down to the argument about God and Free Will. Unlike God, however, Superman did not create the MMulti verse and is another sentient being, albeit a really powerful one. In most iterations Superman tries to come off as a symbol of what humanity can achieve if we would be good and helpful to each other (undermined that every other Kryptonian is a dick)
Superman typically pitches in for stuff that ordinary people can't. Turning around the question, as a previous Farker did, makes us all murderers since all of us could have a breakdown like Oscar Schindler.
General Lane might seem to be asking for benevolent Darkseid.

A bigger question is why Batman doesn't just kill the Joker. (Answered beautifully in Under the Red Hood) Wayne is just a guy. Every time he takes the moral high road and doesn't kill the Joker, more innocents die. At what cost is this moral indulgence?


So much farking this.  Also: Superman v. The Elite is another excellent answer.
 
2013-08-21 12:09:11 PM
But when Superman tries to control the world, we get Injustice: Gods Among Us.

I love that comic so much.  Tuesdays are best days.
 
Kiz
2013-08-21 04:29:30 PM

Fano: baufan2005: Red Son Superman tried it the rough way and found out he didn't want to put the whole world in a bottle. Superman can't go around ripping people's heads off even if they are dictators.

It's been deconstructed a thousand times why Superman doesn't fix everything. It generally comes down to the argument about God and Free Will. Unlike God, however, Superman did not create the MMulti verse and is another sentient being, albeit a really powerful one. In most iterations Superman tries to come off as a symbol of what humanity can achieve if we would be good and helpful to each other (undermined that every other Kryptonian is a dick)
Superman typically pitches in for stuff that ordinary people can't. Turning around the question, as a previous Farker did, makes us all murderers since all of us could have a breakdown like Oscar Schindler.
General Lane might seem to be asking for benevolent Darkseid.

A bigger question is why Batman doesn't just kill the Joker. (Answered beautifully in Under the Red Hood) Wayne is just a guy. Every time he takes the moral high road and doesn't kill the Joker, more innocents die. At what cost is this moral indulgence?


Well, realistically, killing the Joker won't stop him from showing up next week to kill again. And then he might have Ghost Powers or a Time Travel device. Locking him up saves the most lives per issue overall.
 
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