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(Buzzfeed)   News: A registry of gun owners across the nation has secretly been created. Fark: By the NRA   (buzzfeed.com) divider line 380
    More: Ironic, NRA, Richard Feldman, Iowa Legislature, Virginia State Police, Department of Wildlife, information broker, databases  
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5622 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Aug 2013 at 8:32 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-21 03:29:34 PM

AngryDragon: THIS WAS ALMOST 60 YEARS AGO! Most of the people involved are probably dead!

Jesus, talk about beating a dead horse.


I didn't bring it up.
 
2013-08-21 03:38:15 PM

Click Click D'oh: lordjupiter: A) Wrong.  What they do goes way beyond basic customer data collection.  I don't like EITHER.

Yes, they probably also use if for targeted marketing and membership drives OMG!!!! PANIC!!!

lordjupiter: Hold the NRA to their own standards instead.
 
What standard of the NRA have they violated?  Oh wait, you guys are making the idiotic claim that this is tantamount to a firearm registration.  So no, the NRA hasn't violated their own standards against a national firearms registry, no matter how ignorant and retarded you are.



While not technically the same you're talking about a meaningless distinction.  It's close enough for the principle behind the idea to be violated.  Access to the NRA list could LEAD to a registry, or an attempt at one.  If they didn't think about that, then they don't deserve your dues.

If you fear a government enough to not want to be named, and the people supposedly protecting you are naming you, the distinction is unnecessary.  Unless you're just looking for semantic reasons to excuse the behavior. 

I realize this requires a level of thought you may never reach, so you'll have to trust me on this one.  Or stop trolling.  Either way.  Because nobody could be this dumb.
 
2013-08-21 03:41:55 PM
 Something makes me more than a bit nervous about a Right wing group who insist that the only reason for having such a database is to know whom to go after while keeping such a database themselves.
 
2013-08-21 03:52:15 PM

lordjupiter: While not technically the same you're talking about a meaningless distinction.


No, it's a pretty important distinction.  One is a list of people and the firearms they own.  The other is a list of people that shopped at stores or attended events that may be in some way connected to firearms.  That's a pretty frakking huge difference.

If you can't imagine how different they are, try this mental exercise:  Guns are magically outlawed and a law is passed saying that any firearms not turned in may be confiscated from a persons home upon probably cause that they have them.  Which of these two items is probable cause:

1) A list of people and the firearms they own
2) A list of people that have shopped at stores that are in some way connected to firearms.

--insert jeopardy theme song--

If you said (2), you're a moron.

.

lordjupiter: Access to the NRA list could LEAD to a registry, or an attempt at one. If they didn't think about that, then they don't deserve your dues.


Access to the NRA database won't provide any more information than the government already has access too.  Where do you think they sent the FOIA requested to get the lists of weapons permit holders from?  Duh, the issuing governments.  Do you really think the government isn't getting the customer databases from sporting goods companies and the NRA has a secret stranglehold on that information?  The only proprietary information the NRA has is their membership directory.  Are we really to believe that you think the NRA shouldn't maintain a list of their members because OMG TEH GOBERMENT MIGHT STEEL IT!!!!!one11!!!

And since you really are dense, I'll have to point out that you are validating the very thought that many people call the NRA crazy for.  If the government is so tyrannical that it's a rational fear for you that the government will seize the NRAs mailing list to persecute it's own citizens, then the NRA is right in suggesting the government might need to be fought off with force of arms and they aren't crazy after all.  Huh.. figure that...

So which is it?  Either you are a super government fearing prepper idiot, or your argument is so poorly thought out it implodes on itself at the slightest review.


lordjupiter: If you fear a government enough to not want to be named, and the people supposedly protecting you are naming you, the distinction is unnecessary


Once again for the criminally stupid.  The NRAs list does not name a single person as a gun owner.  I know you're dumb as a brick, but you will catch on to this sooner or later.
 
2013-08-21 03:52:53 PM

HypnozombieX: Something makes me more than a bit nervous about a Right wing group who insist that the only reason for having such a database is to know whom to go after while keeping such a database themselves.


Oh jesus for the love of god... Is all of Fark this stupid today?
 
2013-08-21 03:56:01 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Doom MD: So if they don't condemn it you'll become a staunch advocate of the 2nd amendment?

No, it's hardly the only issue surrounding it.


Not when the goalposts are this loose and fast
 
2013-08-21 04:00:30 PM
An extremist group hostile to the US government compiling a database of weapons and weapons enthusiasts? That's a tiny little Slip & Slide away from sedition.
 
2013-08-21 04:01:53 PM

monoski: Saiga410: LasersHurt: Snatch Bandergrip: If you're a licensed gun owner, wouldn't you already be on a database?  Is it really any different than having a driver's license?

/Serious question

There is no licensing requirement for ownership (in a general sense, restrictions apply).

Offer not valid in IL

There is a license to carry a gun in most states but not one to own one. There are a lot of states where handgun purchases are registered but there is a gun show and private sale loophole where guns can be bought and sold outside of the state's system.


You haven't read up on Mass. gun laws, have you? (Other states may be similar, but I only know Mass...)

To lawfully possess a handgun, you must have a valid LTC. ... To lawfully possess a rifle, shotgun, ammunition, or chemical propellant spray, you must possess a valid FID card.

Q: Do I need an FID Card or an LTC Firearms to possess a gun in my home?

A: Yes. At a minimum you need an FID Card for non-large capacity rifles and shotguns. For handguns you need either an LTC,, or an FID Card combined with a Permit to Purchase firearms for the particular handgun in question.
 
2013-08-21 04:03:48 PM

RobSeace: You haven't read up on Mass. gun laws, have you? (Other states may be similar, but I only know Mass...)

To lawfully possess a handgun, you must have a valid LTC. ... To lawfully possess a rifle, shotgun, ammunition, or chemical propellant spray, you must possess a valid FID card.

Q: Do I need an FID Card or an LTC Firearms to possess a gun in my home?

A: Yes. At a minimum you need an FID Card for non-large capacity rifles and shotguns. For handguns you need either an LTC,, or an FID Card combined with a Permit to Purchase firearms for the particular handgun in question.


Michigan just repealed their purchase permit requirement in the last couple of years.
 
2013-08-21 04:03:58 PM
I believe it.  Magically the NRA began sending me propaganda within a month of a gun purchase.  I don't need to tell you that I obviously didn't seek them out.
 
2013-08-21 04:23:41 PM

Click Click D'oh: lordjupiter: While not technically the same you're talking about a meaningless distinction.

No, it's a pretty important distinction.  One is a list of people and the firearms they own.  The other is a list of people that shopped at stores or attended events that may be in some way connected to firearms.  That's a pretty frakking huge difference.

If you can't imagine how different they are, try this mental exercise:  Guns are magically outlawed and a law is passed saying that any firearms not turned in may be confiscated from a persons home upon probably cause that they have them.  Which of these two items is probable cause:

1) A list of people and the firearms they own
2) A list of people that have shopped at stores that are in some way connected to firearms.

--insert jeopardy theme song--

If you said (2), you're a moron.

.lordjupiter: Access to the NRA list could LEAD to a registry, or an attempt at one. If they didn't think about that, then they don't deserve your dues.

Access to the NRA database won't provide any more information than the government already has access too.  Where do you think they sent the FOIA requested to get the lists of weapons permit holders from?  Duh, the issuing governments.  Do you really think the government isn't getting the customer databases from sporting goods companies and the NRA has a secret stranglehold on that information?  The only proprietary information the NRA has is their membership directory.  Are we really to believe that you think the NRA shouldn't maintain a list of their members because OMG TEH GOBERMENT MIGHT STEEL IT!!!!!one11!!!

And since you really are dense, I'll have to point out that you are validating the very thought that many people call the NRA crazy for.  If the government is so tyrannical that it's a rational fear for you that the government will seize the NRAs mailing list to persecute it's own citizens, then the NRA is right in suggesting the government might need to be fought off with force of ...


You didn't even read this article or any others on the topic, I take it.

It's not just names of people who may have shopped somewhere related to guns... it's the NRA going to governments and soliciting the names of people who have applied for permits, AND fighting privacy laws that might prevent them from doing it.  They compile information against people's will and without their knowledge, and they throw vast resources at the issue at all levels of government.

It's not just an innocent little membership list, and it's exactly the kind of thing they fight against when anyone else does it.

I know it hurts your reptilian brain to admit this, but the NRA is not looking out for you.  You don't need to martyr yourself for them.
 
2013-08-21 04:40:04 PM
gnnaz.com
 
2013-08-21 04:51:51 PM

lordjupiter: . it's the NRA going to governments and soliciting the names of people who have applied for permits, AND fighting privacy laws that might prevent them from doing it. They compile information against people's will and without their knowledge, and they throw vast resources at the issue at all levels of government.


Jesus Christ you are a tool.  Fighting privacy laws?  It's called a FOIA request.  If it's a govenment record, anyone can get it with a FOIA request.  Your approval or notification is not required.  How do you think newspapers keep getting the lists?

And guess what Tool, if the NRA is getting the information from the government, the government doesn't need to steal it from the NRA... the government already has it to have given it to the NRA in the first place.  NUR NUR NUR NUR.

lordjupiter: It's not just an innocent little membership list, and it's exactly the kind of thing they fight against when anyone else does it.


I'd love to see an example of the NRA fighting against data mining.  Show us where the NRAs database has one bit of information on firearms actually owned by any person in the database or shut up and go away.
 
2013-08-21 04:59:41 PM

Doom MD: HotWingConspiracy: Doom MD: So if they don't condemn it you'll become a staunch advocate of the 2nd amendment?

No, it's hardly the only issue surrounding it.

Not when the goalposts are this loose and fast


wat
 
2013-08-21 05:19:35 PM

Click Click D'oh: lordjupiter: . it's the NRA going to governments and soliciting the names of people who have applied for permits, AND fighting privacy laws that might prevent them from doing it. They compile information against people's will and without their knowledge, and they throw vast resources at the issue at all levels of government.

Jesus Christ you are a tool.  Fighting privacy laws?  It's called a FOIA request.  If it's a govenment record, anyone can get it with a FOIA request.  Your approval or notification is not required.  How do you think newspapers keep getting the lists?

And guess what Tool, if the NRA is getting the information from the government, the government doesn't need to steal it from the NRA... the government already has it to have given it to the NRA in the first place.  NUR NUR NUR NUR.

lordjupiter: It's not just an innocent little membership list, and it's exactly the kind of thing they fight against when anyone else does it.

I'd love to see an example of the NRA fighting against data mining.  Show us where the NRAs database has one bit of information on firearms actually owned by any person in the database or shut up and go away.


Ok, so you're fine with the NRA doing the dirty work for the federal government going state to state for all the information they're looking for.  Fine by me.

How can I tell you what's in the NRA database when they won't divulge how much detail is kept?  You clearly didn't read the article.  You don't even know what you're arguing about.  Just another NRA parrot squawking.

But since you asked, Polly, here:
 http://gawker.com/5987293/the-nra-wants-to-keep-gun-records-secret- fro m-everyone-except-the-nra


States across the nation have been rushing to change their gun laws to make gun permit information private, moves that have been furiously stoked by the NRA, which argues that the media has "no business possessing personal information" about gun owners. New York made gun information private earlier this year. Last week, Maine's governor signed an "emergency bill" shielding the identity of gun licensees after the Bangor Daily News-which was in the middle of a two-year investigation of domestic violence and drug abuse-backed down from a public records request for gun permit data. (Republican legislators had called an "emergency press conference" to shame the newspaper into submission.)

In Virginia, state lawmakers passed a bill to seal its gun permit records from public inspection. North Carolina may soon follow suit. A freshman lawmaker in Tennessee is pushing a similar bill in his statehouse.


But while the NRA has lately become one of the harshest critics of fourth estate access gun permit data-it has said "personal information regarding [permit] holders serves no public interest and only exposes law-abiding citizens to potential criminal acts" and places them at "risk to criminals who may target their home to steal firearms"-the group holds itself to a very different standard.

When Tennessee first tried to make gun records private in 2009, the effort died "amid fears that political groups and gun advocates would no longer be able to access addresses of handgun carry permit holders to add to their mailing list soliciting contributions," according to the Associated Press.


Indeed, in a survey of public records requests filed in 7 of the states that make (or formerly made) gun records public (we're still waiting on answers from 9 more), Gawker found multiple examples of the NRA and other conservative, "pro-gun" partisans seeking the lists for their own political and fundraising gain.
In 2009, for example, a North Carolina firm called Preferred Communications emailed the Virginia State Police to find out how much it could pay to buy a list of the state's gun permit holders. It was requesting the information on behalf of the NRA


 Proceed, Polly.
 
2013-08-21 05:20:01 PM
redmid17: If the police or national guard start dropping bombs or using overwhelming firepower on people who are resisting gun confiscation, there is going to be a *lot* of collateral damage, and you'll find that erodes goodwill rather quickly.

When the Guard worked with the Police (and probably Blackwater) to confiscate legally-owned guns after Katrina, it pissed off a few far-right web sites, but there wasn't any significant erosion of goodwill even from mainstream Republicans.

What about when Watertown PD seized legally-held guns in the name of "officer safety?"
 
2013-08-21 05:23:40 PM

Deep Contact: Quite a difference between a NRA secret data base compared to a mandated government secret data base.


/\  So much THIS /\
 
2013-08-21 05:25:42 PM
Well this pretty much wraps it up for the question as to why X was OK when Bush did it but ZOMGLZYBLKFRMUSSR when Obama does it.
 
2013-08-21 05:31:54 PM

lordjupiter: Proceed, Polly.


Annnndddd Click Click Do'h will never been seen in this thread again.
 
2013-08-21 05:54:55 PM

fnordfocus: When the Guard worked with the Police (and probably Blackwater) to confiscate legally-owned guns after Katrina, it pissed off a few far-right web sites, but there wasn't any significant erosion of goodwill even from mainstream Republicans.


That was a local decision by democrats to seize firearms. Not Bushs.

The NRA and GOoA sued New Orleans over it, not the feds.
 
2013-08-21 05:56:31 PM
After re-reading the article and the linked article, it looks like a typical marketing company attempted to compile a list for the NRA.  Associations buy lists constantly for marketing purposes.
 
2013-08-21 06:01:19 PM
Tomorrow's headline: How the NSA got its hands on a massive secret database of gun owners
 
2013-08-21 06:19:28 PM

lordjupiter: How can I tell you what's in the NRA database when they won't divulge how much detail is kept?


Wait... we've had like 300 replies now of people accusing the NRA of building a firearms registry... and now you tell us you don't even know what's in the database?  Doesn't that make you... Full of shiat?


lordjupiter: Proceed, Polly.


Yes, we all know the NRA does not want the media to be able to access the lists, because they have a habit of publishing the information.  The NRA, and anyone with a brain has always maintained that it's a bad idea to publish gun owner information.

Now, are you contending that the NRA has built this database with the intent to publish it?  Because, that's what would make them hypocrites.

Satanic_Hamster: Annnndddd Click Click Do'h will never been seen in this thread again.


Right here sweet cheecks.
 
2013-08-21 07:04:11 PM

Click Click D'oh: lordjupiter: How can I tell you what's in the NRA database when they won't divulge how much detail is kept?

Wait... we've had like 300 replies now of people accusing the NRA of building a firearms registry... and now you tell us you don't even know what's in the database?  Doesn't that make you... Full of shiat?


lordjupiter: Proceed, Polly.

Yes, we all know the NRA does not want the media to be able to access the lists, because they have a habit of publishing the information.  The NRA, and anyone with a brain has always maintained that it's a bad idea to publish gun owner information.

Now, are you contending that the NRA has built this database with the intent to publish it?  Because, that's what would make them hypocrites.

Satanic_Hamster: Annnndddd Click Click Do'h will never been seen in this thread again.

Right here sweet cheecks.


Trolly trolly trolly get your trolol here
Father, Son and Trolly get your trolol here
 
2013-08-21 08:25:06 PM

AngryDragon: RobSeace: You haven't read up on Mass. gun laws, have you? (Other states may be similar, but I only know Mass...)

To lawfully possess a handgun, you must have a valid LTC. ... To lawfully possess a rifle, shotgun, ammunition, or chemical propellant spray, you must possess a valid FID card.

Q: Do I need an FID Card or an LTC Firearms to possess a gun in my home?

A: Yes. At a minimum you need an FID Card for non-large capacity rifles and shotguns. For handguns you need either an LTC,, or an FID Card combined with a Permit to Purchase firearms for the particular handgun in question.

Michigan just repealed their purchase permit requirement in the last couple of years.


Sort of. They still require a NICS check or a valid CPL in place of it. A sales record is still created which must go to state and local officials.
 
2013-08-21 08:39:33 PM

Click Click D'oh: Now, are you contending that the NRA has built this database with the intent to publish it? Because, that's what would make them hypocrites.


Who said anything about publishing it?

And you were just given an example of the NRA taking the OPPOSITE position that you said they always take.  You're an ignorant bullshiat artist.
 
2013-08-21 08:52:13 PM

Satanic_Hamster: Who said anything about publishing it?


That's why the NRA opposes the news media getting their hands on lists of gun license holders.  Because the media has a habit of publishing them.  Now, if you want to accuse the NRA of being hypocrites for getting the lists, then you must contend that they are hypocrites because the NRA intends to use them for the same reason they say the news media should no longer be given them... Publishing them

So, do you think the NRA plans to publish the list of gun license holders, or do you concede that this is an apples/oranges issue and the NRA isn't being hypocrites because they have zero intent to publish them?

Satanic_Hamster: And you were just given an example of the NRA taking the OPPOSITE position that you said they always take.  You're an ignorant bullshiat artist.


Uh, no.  I'm giving a perfect example of the NRAs position throughout history.  That position is that some people can't be trusted with some things and therefore shouldn't have them while the rest of us should have access to those items.  Just as the NRA contends that felons and the insane shouldn't have guns because they can't be trusted with them, they contend the news media shouldn't be given lists of gun license holders because they can't be trusted with them either.

See how that works?
 
2013-08-21 10:14:24 PM

Click Click D'oh: Uh, no. I'm giving a perfect example of the NRAs position throughout history. That position is that some people can't be trusted with some things and therefore shouldn't have them while the rest of us should have access to those items. Just as the NRA contends that felons and the insane shouldn't have guns because they can't be trusted with them, they contend the news media shouldn't be given lists of gun license holders because they can't be trusted with them either.

See how that works?


So media can't be trusted....  But NRA CAN be trusted because they just want to take money from the gun owners, not their guns....?
 
2013-08-22 01:22:56 PM

Click Click D'oh: Just as the NRA contends that felons and the insane shouldn't have guns because they can't be trusted with them


No they don't, liar.
 
2013-08-22 03:31:16 PM

Deep Contact: Quite a difference between a NRA secret data base compared to a mandated government secret data base.


in the NSA era? None. None Different
 
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