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(Buzzfeed)   News: A registry of gun owners across the nation has secretly been created. Fark: By the NRA   (buzzfeed.com) divider line 380
    More: Ironic, NRA, Richard Feldman, Iowa Legislature, Virginia State Police, Department of Wildlife, information broker, databases  
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5622 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Aug 2013 at 8:32 AM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-21 12:24:34 PM
Anyone with a brain knew this, anyone with a brain knew the government has this list.
 
2013-08-21 12:27:35 PM

redmid17: I bought one shotgun from Bass Pro, another from Dick's (good sale but won't go back for a gun), and one from a small gun shop. I've bought ammo in 4 separate states and online. I've rented a lane for hours total at various gun ranges in multiple cities. I've gone skeet shooting at various DNR ranges in multiple states. I've had a hunting only license for the past 5 years, and hunting/fishing license combo before that.

I have never once seen an NRA pamphlet or flier sent to any of my addresses or included in anything I purchased. The only time I got an NRA flier was when someone handed me one at a gun show. I believe that they send out a ton of shiat. What membership organizations don't? My parents started getting AARP stuff in their mid 40s. I just can't believe it's nearly as pervasive as people say it is. I'd have gotten *something* by now if it were.


What brands?  All Smith and Wesson, Taurus, Remington, and Ruger all come with NRA pamphlets.

And what does any of that answer my question?  You never supplied your address to them when buying a gun in person or at a shooting range.   I said "buy online or through a catalog."  A majority of the major stores do sell their info to the NRA.
 
2013-08-21 12:27:59 PM
1) Oh my farking god it's a mailing lisy, get over it.

2)ITT people can't tell the difference between yhe NRA and the NRA-ILA. If it WAS a registry (which it isn't), it would only be ironic if done by the latter.
 
2013-08-21 12:28:14 PM

Click Click D'oh: sammyk: Really? You are going to pretend the NRA hasn't used slipery slope arguments for decades regarding any form of a database of gun owners?

I guess this needs to be covered REALLY SLOWLY.  The NRA does not have a database of gun owners.  There is absolutely ZERO positive connection between people in the NRA mailing database and gun ownership.   Think through it.  Where is the NRA information gathered from?  Does attending a gun show mean a person owns a gun?  Does purchasing items from certain vendors mean a person owns a gun? Does being an NRA member mean a person owns a gun?  No, No and No.  Heck, even attending an NRA course doesn't mean you own a gun.

The NRA does not have a firearms owners, or firearms database.  It has a database of people likely to agree with their cause.


Go back and read the article again if you even bothered to in teh first place. Read it real slow or try to get an adult to read and explain it to you.

The NRA is mining data from counties and states for people who have gun permits and/or CCW permits. They are doing this without your knowledge or permission. They have very publicly and very loudly spoken against the dangers of a gun database and made slippery slope arguments for years and years. Again, they are doing what they speak loudly about. They have not stated what they use the data for because they are collecting it without the knowledge of the farking people they are adding to the database.

You bullet counters are a riot when you try to talk down to people.
 
2013-08-21 12:37:36 PM

Satanic_Hamster: redmid17: I bought one shotgun from Bass Pro, another from Dick's (good sale but won't go back for a gun), and one from a small gun shop. I've bought ammo in 4 separate states and online. I've rented a lane for hours total at various gun ranges in multiple cities. I've gone skeet shooting at various DNR ranges in multiple states. I've had a hunting only license for the past 5 years, and hunting/fishing license combo before that.

I have never once seen an NRA pamphlet or flier sent to any of my addresses or included in anything I purchased. The only time I got an NRA flier was when someone handed me one at a gun show. I believe that they send out a ton of shiat. What membership organizations don't? My parents started getting AARP stuff in their mid 40s. I just can't believe it's nearly as pervasive as people say it is. I'd have gotten *something* by now if it were.

What brands?  All Smith and Wesson, Taurus, Remington, and Ruger all come with NRA pamphlets.

And what does any of that answer my question?  You never supplied your address to them when buying a gun in person or at a shooting range.   I said "buy online or through a catalog."  A majority of the major stores do sell their info to the NRA.


Remington 870 - Neither the gun nor the rifled barrel I bought as an addition came with any NRA material
Mossberg 500 - same deal
Mosin-Nagant - that box was straight from the Russian armory and that was a small gun shop. I don't even remember seeing NRA stuff there


You didn't actually have any question beyond these:

You ever buy a new gun?
Ever buy a part for a gun online or from a catalog, or a gun accessory?


I've bought ammo, cleaning materials, gun locks, targets, and other stuff from places like cheaperthandirt.com and impactguns.com I've bought similar stuff from places like Dick's, Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, Cabela's, and smaller gun shops. These shops all have my name, what I bought, and can tie that back to a billing or shipping address.

I answered those questions as an affirmative, and I stated I hadn't gotten any NRA material.  I've ticked pretty much every way possible for the NRA to get a hold of me, yet I have only received a flier from a person handing them out to people at a gun show. I'm certain the NRA has my information in their database. They'd be completely incompetent if they didn't, but it doesn't mean they are mass mailing everyone and everything to death.
 
2013-08-21 12:37:42 PM

Englebert Slaptyback: Frank N Stein

Is Obama the only black guy you know of?


Yes, that's it! I am familiar with only one such person!

Or I was providing an example of the NRA *not* supporting such a person in arguably the highest-profile election in the country, in clear contradiction to an earlier post from give me doughnuts.

Romney - sponsored AWB in MA
Obama - nothing of the sort

NRA endorses Romney. Well, that makes sense. *eyeroll*


You're absolutely right, Obama has been hugely pro-gun in the White House. Romney would've pushed for much more stringent gun control legislation.
 
2013-08-21 12:45:16 PM

sammyk: The NRA is mining data from counties and states for people who have gun permits and/or CCW permits.


Oh TFA.  I thought you were talking about the other article that got linked.  The one about background checks.  Moving on...


sammyk: They are doing this without your knowledge or permission.


Nobody need your knowledge or permission to data mine.  Why is it suddenly bad when the NRA does it?  Every major organization does it.

sammyk: They have very publicly and very loudly spoken against the dangers of a gun database and made slippery slope arguments for years and years.


This is not a gun database.  If you can't figure that out, you're an idiot.  None of the information they are gathering is a positive connection to actual firearms ownership.

sammyk: Again, they are doing what they speak loudly about.


No they are not.  None of the NRAs data actually indicates ownership of a firearm and most certainly does not tie any specific firearms by make, model, type, serial number or another other identifying information to any individuals.  At most, it indicates people likely to own firearms.  Nothing more.

That is not a registration by any stretch of the imagination

.

sammyk: They have not stated what they use the data for because they are collecting it without the knowledge of the farking people they are adding to the database.


It's their mailing list you idiot.
 
2013-08-21 12:50:20 PM

lordjupiter: mod3072: IdBeCrazyIf: What's funny is that more than likely one could use existing commerce data to extrapolate who might be existing gun owners based on your age, race, location, purchases, and online activity.

Yet, people bemoan government databases and willfully ignore the private ones.

There is a big difference between a general list of possible/probable gun owners and a specific database of gun owners and what guns they own.

And if the fear is the government is going to come knocking on your door after getting said list, and if acquiring guns legally or illegally makes no difference, then what IS the "big difference" here?

Let's put it this way...if the government had this same list and not the NRA, and you were on it, would you be concerned?


You don't see a difference between a list that says "this guy might own a gun" and a detailed inventory of every gun that everyone owns? If the government chooses to compile a list of people they think might own guns and my name ends up on it, so be it. My biggest concern with that would be that it's a huge waste of time and money.
 
2013-08-21 12:54:04 PM

redmid17: lordjupiter: redmid17: Satanic_Hamster: Doom MD: I love how intellectually dishonest this article is. The NRA has a mailing list, holy crap.

It's a bit "worse" then that.  You ever buy a new gun?  Good luck getting one that doesn't have a bunch of NRA fliers with the manual.  Ever buy a part for a gun online or from a catalog, or a gun accessory?   Good luck buying from a place that won't give/sell your info to the NRA.

I bought one shotgun from Bass Pro, another from Dick's (good sale but won't go back for a gun), and one from a small gun shop. I've bought ammo in 4 separate states and online. I've rented a lane for hours total at various gun ranges in multiple cities. I've gone skeet shooting at various DNR ranges in multiple states. I've had a hunting only license for the past 5 years, and hunting/fishing license combo before that.

I have never once seen an NRA pamphlet or flier sent to any of my addresses or included in anything I purchased. The only time I got an NRA flier was when someone handed me one at a gun show.  I believe that they send out a ton of shiat. What membership organizations don't? My parents started getting AARP stuff in their mid 40s. I just can't believe it's nearly as pervasive as people say it is. I'd have gotten *something* by now if it were.

So this list is imaginary.  That's the angle now?

Is not being able to read or understand context hard for you?



Speak for yourself.  Your anecdote does not negate reality here, sparky.
 
2013-08-21 12:56:50 PM

lordjupiter: redmid17: lordjupiter: redmid17: Satanic_Hamster: Doom MD: I love how intellectually dishonest this article is. The NRA has a mailing list, holy crap.

It's a bit "worse" then that.  You ever buy a new gun?  Good luck getting one that doesn't have a bunch of NRA fliers with the manual.  Ever buy a part for a gun online or from a catalog, or a gun accessory?   Good luck buying from a place that won't give/sell your info to the NRA.

I bought one shotgun from Bass Pro, another from Dick's (good sale but won't go back for a gun), and one from a small gun shop. I've bought ammo in 4 separate states and online. I've rented a lane for hours total at various gun ranges in multiple cities. I've gone skeet shooting at various DNR ranges in multiple states. I've had a hunting only license for the past 5 years, and hunting/fishing license combo before that.

I have never once seen an NRA pamphlet or flier sent to any of my addresses or included in anything I purchased. The only time I got an NRA flier was when someone handed me one at a gun show.  I believe that they send out a ton of shiat. What membership organizations don't? My parents started getting AARP stuff in their mid 40s. I just can't believe it's nearly as pervasive as people say it is. I'd have gotten *something* by now if it were.

So this list is imaginary.  That's the angle now?

Is not being able to read or understand context hard for you?

Speak for yourself.  Your anecdote does not negate reality here, sparky.


Did I say it did? Did I say the list was imaginary?

I will repeat the question and actually make it grammatically correct this time:    Is not being able to read or not being able to understand context hard for you?
 
2013-08-21 01:02:20 PM

sammyk: way south: sammyk: Pants full of macaroni!!: Wouldn't that be, um, their mailing list?

way south: Not every gun owner is a member of the NRA, and not every NRA member owns a gun. The data they've compiled either comes from voluntary sources (mailing list, membership) or was originally collected by the government anyway.

The same government that is listening to your voicemail and reading your emails has probably been absent minded about destroying background check and ownership transfer records.

I'm thinking that the NRA isn't a problem since they have no power to confiscate weapons or the interest in doing so. The only way their data becomes a problem is if the government takes it.
...but since it has even more detailed information, there wouldn't be much sense in doing so.

That database has been built through years of acquiring gun permit registration lists from state and county offices, gathering names of new owners from the thousands of gun-safety classes taught by NRA-certified instructors and by buying lists of attendees of gun shows, subscribers to gun magazines and more, BuzzFeed has learned.

Candy coat it all you want kids. They have been collecting gun registration info from counties and states. WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION!!!

Even at that, they are a lobby who uses that information to contact prospective supporters. The NRA will never come knocking to inspect my safe, publish my address in the papers, or file charges for my prosecution.
Governments use their information to send cops to your door and enforce laws, bans, and confiscations. If they were benign or even helpful then I could care less about having my information stored with the atf. It would be no different than keeping it at the IRS or with the postmaster.

Its sort of like being ok with knowing my address is on a high times mailing list but not being ok with it being listed by the DEA as a prospective target. There's a difference in potential use that defines whether I would be upset or not.
...




For the sake of discussion lets assume it is as bad as you say and the NRA has a complete database of all gun owners and their possession.

You are asking me if the slippery slope argument against governments abuse of data applies when a private entity collects the same data. I don't believe it does, because its specially government overreach that is the problem.

Am I happy about it? Not particularly. I'd fear the government could muscle its way into taking ownership of that treasure trove.
...But again its back to government abuse. Remove that aspect and even the most absurd accusations of NRA data collection turn out to be no more troublesome than Facebook.
 
2013-08-21 01:03:25 PM

mod3072: lordjupiter: mod3072: IdBeCrazyIf: What's funny is that more than likely one could use existing commerce data to extrapolate who might be existing gun owners based on your age, race, location, purchases, and online activity.

Yet, people bemoan government databases and willfully ignore the private ones.

There is a big difference between a general list of possible/probable gun owners and a specific database of gun owners and what guns they own.

And if the fear is the government is going to come knocking on your door after getting said list, and if acquiring guns legally or illegally makes no difference, then what IS the "big difference" here?

Let's put it this way...if the government had this same list and not the NRA, and you were on it, would you be concerned?

You don't see a difference between a list that says "this guy might own a gun" and a detailed inventory of every gun that everyone owns? If the government chooses to compile a list of people they think might own guns and my name ends up on it, so be it. My biggest concern with that would be that it's a huge waste of time and money.


So you're saying you don't trust the government with a list of gun owners, but you trust them to not investigate or harass people who PROBABLY have guns?  Given the expansion of probable cause over the years?

Again, when the concern is the gubment knocking on your door and not believing you when you say you don't have the guns they're looking for, what's this "BIG difference" you're talking about? Especially in a system where groups like the NRA fight AGAINST accurate reporting of who owns what, and the assertion is constantly made that gun ownership can't accurately be tracked nor should gun owners be responsible for what happens to their guns after they're lost or stolen or sold.

So the best information may be that list of "this guy might own a gun", and the best way to handle it might be to search everyone.  What better excuse to go door to door?  Isn't that why the NRA has fought registering ANY gun for ANY reason for so long?  Targeting people for blanket searches or confiscations?

And if this corrupt secret government decides to steal that list from the NRA, or have them turn it over legally somehow, then what?

Let's see some consistency instead of slavery to the NRA, people.  Aren't we always being told that the NRA doesn't control gun owners, it just works FOR them?  Now you find out they're screwing you over, and you still defend them.  Why?
 
2013-08-21 01:04:28 PM

redmid17: I just can't believe it's nearly as pervasive as people say it is. I'd have gotten *something* by now if it were.


So yes, you are suggesting this doesn't really exist.
 
2013-08-21 01:04:54 PM

redmid17: Remington 870 - Neither the gun nor the rifled barrel I bought as an addition came with any NRA material


I would be very, very surprised that there wasn't a NRA flyer with the Remington.  Don't know about the other brands.

redmid17: I've bought ammo, cleaning materials, gun locks, targets, and other stuff from places like cheaperthandirt.com and impactguns.com I've bought similar stuff from places like Dick's, Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, Cabela's, and smaller gun shops. These shops all have my name, what I bought, and can tie that back to a billing or shipping address.


And given that, I'm willing to bet that NRA has your address then.
 
2013-08-21 01:05:55 PM

redmid17: HotWingConspiracy: redmid17: HotWingConspiracy: You can't discern how this supports their current goals?

No I can. It expands gun rights for everyone in the country, including people who can't vote for them.

It's about creating legal cover and precedent.

HotWingConspiracy: They would fall in line with the money behind them, which will most certainly not support black dudes with rifles slung on their backs walking through their towns.

except when they have?

Which black militia did this and got support from NRA members?

It's about creating legal cover and precedent for everyone who can legally possess and use a gun.

I never specified black militia.


I did.

Plenty of black, hispanic, and asian people have taken part in Tea Party rallies armed or done open carry marches.

I think we probably have a different notion of "plenty", but this isn't what I'm talking about. If the New Black Panthers start marching down the streets of Whitelandia with loaded guns, the NRA and their supporters will not be smiling.

I've seen the latter. The news has poorly reported the first. Maybe you remember this from a Fark thread:  http://www.neptunuslex.com/2009/08/19/shameless/  http://www.azcent ral.com/insiders/phxbeat/2009/08/17/man-with-ar-15-ri fle-at-obama-rally-sparks-concerns/


The NRA was a sporting club until the late 1970s. Everything they did prior to the leadership change was gun control (NFA, GCA, no help for Miller in US v Miller). Those are all things they likely would not have done had the current style of leadership been in place back then.


Yes, many organizations have been co-opted by right wing cranks. People are catching on though, look what happened to Komen.
 
2013-08-21 01:09:27 PM

lordjupiter: And if this corrupt secret government decides to steal that list from the NRA, or have them turn it over legally somehow, then what?


What makes you think the government doesn't have the same list?  The NRA is getting it's information from public sources that the government can data mine too.

lordjupiter: Now you find out they're screwing you over, and you still defend them. Why?


Do you apply the standard that having a mailing list is screwing someone over to all corporations and organizations?  Can we take this to mean that you have broken ties with everything?
 
2013-08-21 01:10:09 PM

Satanic_Hamster: redmid17: Remington 870 - Neither the gun nor the rifled barrel I bought as an addition came with any NRA material

I would be very, very surprised that there wasn't a NRA flyer with the Remington.  Don't know about the other brands.

redmid17: I've bought ammo, cleaning materials, gun locks, targets, and other stuff from places like cheaperthandirt.com and impactguns.com I've bought similar stuff from places like Dick's, Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, Cabela's, and smaller gun shops. These shops all have my name, what I bought, and can tie that back to a billing or shipping address.

And given that, I'm willing to bet that NRA has your address then.


I don't really know what to tell you. Maybe the BPS in Goshen, IN doesn't add them or something? I can ask some of my friends who've purchased guns there I suppose.

lordjupiter: redmid17: I just can't believe it's nearly as pervasive as people say it is. I'd have gotten *something* by now if it were.

So yes, you are suggesting this doesn't really exist.


The unsolicited mail is not as pervasive, not the list. Like I said, you either cannot read or cannot understand context .Take your pick. If I spend the preceding 4 sentences talking about fliers and junk mail and compare it to the mailings my parents got from the AARP, there is just a *tiny* chance that I meant the mailing and not the list. Just maybe anyway. How on Earth would *I* know what I meant though.
 
2013-08-21 01:10:14 PM
Every time a gun nut post a gun pic on Facebook, Obama grows stronger.
 
2013-08-21 01:12:20 PM

HotWingConspiracy: I never specified black militia.

I did.


And then you turned around and generalized with black guys walking down the streets with rifles on their back.
 
2013-08-21 01:14:37 PM

Click Click D'oh: lordjupiter: And if this corrupt secret government decides to steal that list from the NRA, or have them turn it over legally somehow, then what?

What makes you think the government doesn't have the same list?  The NRA is getting it's information from public sources that the government can data mine too.

lordjupiter: Now you find out they're screwing you over, and you still defend them. Why?

Do you apply the standard that having a mailing list is screwing someone over to all corporations and organizations?  Can we take this to mean that you have broken ties with everything?


I'm very anti-spam but I'm realistic about what gets collected on the internet and by stores.  I don't like it but unlike NRA robots I don't belong to any organizations that lobby the government about it.  I haven't been betrayed by anyone, so I'm not sure why you're trying to pretend I'm the fanatic here.

Correction, I am sure.  It's a deflection.  You're trying to drag other people into your rationalization for excusing the NRA.
 
2013-08-21 01:17:09 PM

redmid17: HotWingConspiracy: I never specified black militia.

I did.

And then you turned around and generalized with black guys walking down the streets with rifles on their back.


I was still talking about a militia. Or we can play it your way if you want to parse in an attempt to avoid the obvious truth of what I'm saying.

ANY group of armed black people marching will not sit right with NRA backers, and the NRA likes their money.
 
2013-08-21 01:22:30 PM

redmid17: Satanic_Hamster: redmid17: Remington 870 - Neither the gun nor the rifled barrel I bought as an addition came with any NRA material

I would be very, very surprised that there wasn't a NRA flyer with the Remington.  Don't know about the other brands.

redmid17: I've bought ammo, cleaning materials, gun locks, targets, and other stuff from places like cheaperthandirt.com and impactguns.com I've bought similar stuff from places like Dick's, Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, Cabela's, and smaller gun shops. These shops all have my name, what I bought, and can tie that back to a billing or shipping address.

And given that, I'm willing to bet that NRA has your address then.

I don't really know what to tell you. Maybe the BPS in Goshen, IN doesn't add them or something? I can ask some of my friends who've purchased guns there I suppose.

lordjupiter: redmid17: I just can't believe it's nearly as pervasive as people say it is. I'd have gotten *something* by now if it were.

So yes, you are suggesting this doesn't really exist.

The unsolicited mail is not as pervasive, not the list. Like I said, you either cannot read or cannot understand context .Take your pick. If I spend the preceding 4 sentences talking about fliers and junk mail and compare it to the mailings my parents got from the AARP, there is just a *tiny* chance that I meant the mailing and not the list. Just maybe anyway. How on Earth would *I* know what I meant though.


So you offered a generally worthless anecdotal comment about whether or not the NRA has sent you something personally, when the issue being discussed was whether or not the list goes BEYOND a mere mailing list and whether your information is being given or sold to the NRA.

And this of course was in no way intended to diminish the issue or the culpability of the NRA.

And other people are the ones who have problems with context.

/d0rp
 
2013-08-21 01:24:03 PM

lordjupiter: I'm very anti-spam but I'm realistic about what gets collected on the internet and by stores.


...And yet you say that I'm "rationalization for excusing the NRA" when you just admitted they aren't doing anything that everyone else also does... That's amazing in a very special sort of way.

HotWingConspiracy: ANY group of armed black people marching will not sit right with NRA backers, and the NRA likes their money.


I'm confused... I thought the current talking point was that the NRA was the pawn of gun companies and that's where their funding comes from.  Are we now reversing that and saying that the NRA is the pawn of racists and that's where their money comes from?

Can we please try to keep the talking points straight?
 
2013-08-21 01:25:28 PM

lordjupiter: redmid17: Satanic_Hamster: redmid17: Remington 870 - Neither the gun nor the rifled barrel I bought as an addition came with any NRA material

I would be very, very surprised that there wasn't a NRA flyer with the Remington.  Don't know about the other brands.

redmid17: I've bought ammo, cleaning materials, gun locks, targets, and other stuff from places like cheaperthandirt.com and impactguns.com I've bought similar stuff from places like Dick's, Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, Cabela's, and smaller gun shops. These shops all have my name, what I bought, and can tie that back to a billing or shipping address.

And given that, I'm willing to bet that NRA has your address then.

I don't really know what to tell you. Maybe the BPS in Goshen, IN doesn't add them or something? I can ask some of my friends who've purchased guns there I suppose.

lordjupiter: redmid17: I just can't believe it's nearly as pervasive as people say it is. I'd have gotten *something* by now if it were.

So yes, you are suggesting this doesn't really exist.

The unsolicited mail is not as pervasive, not the list. Like I said, you either cannot read or cannot understand context .Take your pick. If I spend the preceding 4 sentences talking about fliers and junk mail and compare it to the mailings my parents got from the AARP, there is just a *tiny* chance that I meant the mailing and not the list. Just maybe anyway. How on Earth would *I* know what I meant though.

So you offered a generally worthless anecdotal comment about whether or not the NRA has sent you something personally, when the issue being discussed was whether or not the list goes BEYOND a mere mailing list and whether your information is being given or sold to the NRA.

And this of course was in no way intended to diminish the issue or the culpability of the NRA.

And other people are the ones who have problems with context.

/d0rp


I wasn't talking about the database. I was talking about their mailings. I even admitted I was probably in their database. How are you not getting this?
 
2013-08-21 01:25:46 PM

redmid17: I don't really know what to tell you. Maybe the BPS in Goshen, IN doesn't add them or something? I can ask some of my friends who've purchased guns there I suppose.


That or your purchases haven't triggered a mailing yet.  Some companies are paranoid about sending unsolicited material (pisses some people off).  At min you're in a database that's used to help determine their state spending/advertising/etc.

Like lordjupiter said, this type of information goes for uses far beyond direct mailings.
 
2013-08-21 01:25:57 PM
lordjupiter:And this of course was in no way intended to diminish the issue or the culpability of the NRA.

Culpability of the NRA?

This should be good...  What exactly is the NRA Culpable for?
 
2013-08-21 01:28:37 PM
Click Click D'oh: HotWingConspiracy: ANY group of armed black people marching will not sit right with NRA backers, and the NRA likes their money.

I'm confused... I thought the current talking point was that the NRA was the pawn of gun companies and that's where their funding comes from.  Are we now reversing that and saying that the NRA is the pawn of racists and that's where their money comes from?

Can we please try to keep the talking points straight?


They do take money from gun companies. I never once stated that their dullard membership was their only source of income. Their numbers actually offer them the clout they need to keep the industry toeing their line.

Can you please try to keep your phony umbrage straight?
 
2013-08-21 01:29:02 PM

Click Click D'oh: lordjupiter: I'm very anti-spam but I'm realistic about what gets collected on the internet and by stores.

...And yet you say that I'm "rationalization for excusing the NRA" when you just admitted they aren't doing anything that everyone else also does... That's amazing in a very special sort of way.


I like how you completely ignored what I said in response to your horribly obvious "trap" hypothetical and then attacked with the "gotcha" angle you planned in the first place.  That's the mark of someone who's not as clever as he thinks he is.  I guess I should have just responded with a pancake bunny and saved myself the time.
 
2013-08-21 01:30:48 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Click Click D'oh: HotWingConspiracy: ANY group of armed black people marching will not sit right with NRA backers, and the NRA likes their money.

I'm confused... I thought the current talking point was that the NRA was the pawn of gun companies and that's where their funding comes from.  Are we now reversing that and saying that the NRA is the pawn of racists and that's where their money comes from?

Can we please try to keep the talking points straight?

They do take money from gun companies. I never once stated that their dullard membership was their only source of income. Their numbers actually offer them the clout they need to keep the industry toeing their line.

Can you please try to keep your phony umbrage straight?



No need.  Just trollin' at this point.  Lots of straw flyin'
 
2013-08-21 01:32:38 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Click Click D'oh: HotWingConspiracy: ANY group of armed black people marching will not sit right with NRA backers, and the NRA likes their money.

I'm confused... I thought the current talking point was that the NRA was the pawn of gun companies and that's where their funding comes from.  Are we now reversing that and saying that the NRA is the pawn of racists and that's where their money comes from?

Can we please try to keep the talking points straight?

They do take money from gun companies. I never once stated that their dullard membership was their only source of income. Their numbers actually offer them the clout they need to keep the industry toeing their line.



Well, their tax records are available to the public.

In 2010 they had an annual income of $227.8 million. $115 million came from fundraising, sales, advertising (they sell ads in their magazines and publications), and royalties. The remaining $112.8 million came from membership dues, making membership dues the largest single chunk of their income.

Between 2005-2010 they received $14.8 million from more than 50 different firearm-related firms, or just under $3 million per year on average. In 2010 their advertising income, most of it from industry, came to $20.9 million (9.2%). Assuming their total income from industry consists of advertising + corporate donations, that's $20.9 + $3 million = $23.9 million, or about 10.5% of their annual income.

Based on their publicly available finances, it sure looks like their mostly speaking for their dues-paying members.
If you're interested in the actual firearms industry trade group, that'd be the National Shooting Sports Foundation.
 
2013-08-21 01:32:53 PM

Satanic_Hamster: redmid17: I don't really know what to tell you. Maybe the BPS in Goshen, IN doesn't add them or something? I can ask some of my friends who've purchased guns there I suppose.

That or your purchases haven't triggered a mailing yet.  Some companies are paranoid about sending unsolicited material (pisses some people off).  At min you're in a database that's used to help determine their state spending/advertising/etc.

Like lordjupiter said, this type of information goes for uses far beyond direct mailings.


I'll be honest, I'd be interested in knowing what does trigger those mailings because I would prefer to avoid them. I get enough shiat from Chase, Comcast, RCN, and a ton of other businesses I've dealt with over the years. The only unsolicited gun thing I've ever gotten was a Benelli products DVD, and I think that came a huge box of shotgun shells I split with my dad.
 
2013-08-21 01:40:50 PM

lordjupiter: Herpa Derpa Derpa


Just double checking that yes, in fact you are holding it against the NRA that they engage in a practice that every other organization and company in the world engages in.

Still waiting to find out exactly what the NRA is culpable for...
 
2013-08-21 01:41:35 PM

Click Click D'oh: lordjupiter: Herpa Derpa Derpa

Just double checking that yes, in fact you are holding it against the NRA that they engage in a practice that every other organization and company in the world engages in.

Still waiting to find out exactly what the NRA is culpable for...


Not mailing me unsolicited material?
 
2013-08-21 01:44:33 PM

redmid17: Not mailing me unsolicited material?


You know... I can take care of that for you....
 
2013-08-21 01:45:33 PM

Doom MD: The Name: NRA members won't care as long as it isn't the fedrul gub'mint amassing a database.

Now, if we find out that the NSA has access to this database . . .

Oh wait, they still won't care.

You're right. The NRA having a list of people they send emails and newsletters to is totally the same as the government creating a list of serialized firearms every American owns. This article has a garbage premise.


I heard the government also has a list of people who own motor vehicles. Surely the next step must be confiscation and a forcible return to a pedestrian lifestyle?
 
2013-08-21 01:48:48 PM

Click Click D'oh: redmid17: Not mailing me unsolicited material?

You know... I can take care of that for you....


No one is that evil..... are they?
 
2013-08-21 01:56:06 PM

HotWingConspiracy: redmid17: HotWingConspiracy: This text is now purple: HotWingConspiracy: This text is now purple: DROxINxTHExWIND: This text is now purple: DROxINxTHExWIND: The one time the NRA was behind a group actively opposing the government, it was in support of black suffrage. I would think that's the sort of thing you could get behind.

As to the original point, I just want you to be consistent. You're a single-issue voter, except for this. There aren't that many organizations, that when the chips are down, will back an unpopular black guy. But the NRA is one of them.

WAS one of them. Haven't been for quite some time.

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/negroeswithguns/rob.html

http://mije.org/richardprince/nra-was-inspired-black-panthers

The NRA didn't abandon black voters. Black voters abandoned them.

So they only support 2nd Amendment rights for their supporters. Super.

Someone said that upthread as a joke I think, I guess it's true.

NRA has stepped in for black plaintiffs in McDonald v Chicago and Ezell v Chicago. They also supported resident aliens being permitted to have a CCW in nebraska and missouri.

Those actions currently benefit them, they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Lets see where they stand when a black militia emerges to do some patrols. Their backers sure as shiat won't stand for it.


They supported Robert F. Williams when the NAACP didn't.

http://books.google.com/books?id=i4YiA0jWz4EC&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=Ma e+ Mallory&source=bl&ots=ylLsLgCB05&sig=mlQjFHZ02DjzNH4nRu6nep9dvOQ&hl=en &ei=5Lf9SrCTD43bnAfEkLCaCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved= 0CBUQ6AEwAzg8#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
2013-08-21 01:58:13 PM
redmid17: No one is that evil..... are they?

Lol.  Honestly, I have no clue how the NRA chooses to send out their mailers.  On the brights side, if you somehow trigger their program and receive any unsolicited mail from the NRA, simply call the number on the mailer and ask to be removed.  They will put a block on your address to prevent it from happening again.
 
2013-08-21 02:00:11 PM

Click Click D'oh: lordjupiter: Herpa Derpa Derpa

Just double checking that yes, in fact you are holding it against the NRA that they engage in a practice that every other organization and company in the world engages in.

Still waiting to find out exactly what the NRA is culpable for...


A) Wrong.  What they do goes way beyond basic customer data collection.  I don't like EITHER.
B) You can stop holding me to a standard I never set.  Hold the NRA to their own standards instead.
C) That should answer your last question.
 
2013-08-21 02:01:20 PM

HotWingConspiracy: redmid17: HotWingConspiracy: You can't discern how this supports their current goals?

No I can. It expands gun rights for everyone in the country, including people who can't vote for them.

It's about creating legal cover and precedent.

HotWingConspiracy: They would fall in line with the money behind them, which will most certainly not support black dudes with rifles slung on their backs walking through their towns.

except when they have?

Which black militia did this and got support from NRA members?

HotWingConspiracy:
Actually they did it out in the open, again, because at the time it served them to.Did what out in the open?

Went against their supposed mission and supported gun control when it came to the Black Panthers.


The Black Armed Guard circa 1958, Raleigh NC.

The NAACP suspended Williams chapter because he argued self reliance and self defense and not just letting the KKK shoot you to death as a form of non violent resistance.
 
2013-08-21 02:14:19 PM

Giltric: HotWingConspiracy: redmid17: HotWingConspiracy: This text is now purple: HotWingConspiracy: This text is now purple: DROxINxTHExWIND: This text is now purple: DROxINxTHExWIND: The one time the NRA was behind a group actively opposing the government, it was in support of black suffrage. I would think that's the sort of thing you could get behind.

As to the original point, I just want you to be consistent. You're a single-issue voter, except for this. There aren't that many organizations, that when the chips are down, will back an unpopular black guy. But the NRA is one of them.

WAS one of them. Haven't been for quite some time.

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/negroeswithguns/rob.html

http://mije.org/richardprince/nra-was-inspired-black-panthers

The NRA didn't abandon black voters. Black voters abandoned them.

So they only support 2nd Amendment rights for their supporters. Super.

Someone said that upthread as a joke I think, I guess it's true.

NRA has stepped in for black plaintiffs in McDonald v Chicago and Ezell v Chicago. They also supported resident aliens being permitted to have a CCW in nebraska and missouri.

Those actions currently benefit them, they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Lets see where they stand when a black militia emerges to do some patrols. Their backers sure as shiat won't stand for it.

They supported Robert F. Williams when the NAACP didn't.

http://books.google.com/books?id=i4YiA0jWz4EC&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=Ma e+ Mallory&source=bl&ots=ylLsLgCB05&sig=mlQjFHZ02DjzNH4nRu6nep9dvOQ&hl=en &ei=5Lf9SrCTD43bnAfEkLCaCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved= 0CBUQ6AEwAzg8#v=onepage&q&f=false


Williams' book Negroes with Guns (1962), published while he was in exile in Cuba, details his experience with violent racism and his disagreement with the pacifist Civil Rights Movement philosophies. Among others the book influenced Huey Newton, who founded the Black Panthers.

And what did the NRA do for the Black Panthers a decade or so later?

In 1959, Williams debated the merits of Martin Luther King Jr at the NAACP convention. The national NAACP office suspended his local chapter presidency for six months because of his outspoken disagreements with the national leadership.

There was a debate and he lost. He got a six month time out.


And then there is this:

In 1956, Williams took over leadership of the local chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, which was close to disbanding due to the Ku Klux Klan. Williams filed for a charter from the NRA and formed the Black Guard, an armed group committed to the protection of blacks.

It's unclear, however, whether the NRA provided any assistance, based on what Williams' widow, Mabel, said in a University of North Carolina oral history interview.


Mabel Williams said her husband altered the occupations of the members when applying for the NRA charter. "I'm sure when we joined and the years after then, had they known we were a black group, they would have revoked our charter," she said.
 
2013-08-21 02:19:35 PM

redmid17: I'll be honest, I'd be interested in knowing what does trigger those mailings because I would prefer to avoid them. I get enough shiat from Chase, Comcast, RCN, and a ton of other businesses I've dealt with over the years. The only unsolicited gun thing I've ever gotten was a Benelli products DVD, and I think that came a huge box of shotgun shells I split with my dad.


If you ever register your gun or get a warranty with Remington, Smith and Wesson, or Ruger you'll start getting them.  Buying spare parts directly from Ruger will tend to get you added.

I love the hell out of Ruger, but damn are they getting derpy.
 
2013-08-21 02:36:46 PM

HotWingConspiracy: redmid17: HotWingConspiracy: redmid17: HotWingConspiracy: You can't discern how this supports their current goals?

No I can. It expands gun rights for everyone in the country, including people who can't vote for them.

It's about creating legal cover and precedent.

HotWingConspiracy: They would fall in line with the money behind them, which will most certainly not support black dudes with rifles slung on their backs walking through their towns.

except when they have?

Which black militia did this and got support from NRA members?

It's about creating legal cover and precedent for everyone who can legally possess and use a gun.

I never specified black militia.

I did.

Plenty of black, hispanic, and asian people have taken part in Tea Party rallies armed or done open carry marches.

I think we probably have a different notion of "plenty", but this isn't what I'm talking about. If the New Black Panthers start marching down the streets of Whitelandia with loaded guns, the NRA and their supporters will not be smiling.

I've seen the latter. The news has poorly reported the first. Maybe you remember this from a Fark thread:  http://www.neptunuslex.com/2009/08/19/shameless/  http://www.azcent ral.com/insiders/phxbeat/2009/08/17/man-with-ar-15-ri fle-at-obama-rally-sparks-concerns/


The NRA was a sporting club until the late 1970s. Everything they did prior to the leadership change was gun control (NFA, GCA, no help for Miller in US v Miller). Those are all things they likely would not have done had the current style of leadership been in place back then.

Yes, many organizations have been co-opted by right wing cranks. People are catching on though, look what happened to Komen.


So if they don't condemn it you'll become a staunch advocate of the 2nd amendment?
 
2013-08-21 02:39:33 PM

lordjupiter: mod3072: lordjupiter: mod3072: IdBeCrazyIf: What's funny is that more than likely one could use existing commerce data to extrapolate who might be existing gun owners based on your age, race, location, purchases, and online activity.

Yet, people bemoan government databases and willfully ignore the private ones.

There is a big difference between a general list of possible/probable gun owners and a specific database of gun owners and what guns they own.

And if the fear is the government is going to come knocking on your door after getting said list, and if acquiring guns legally or illegally makes no difference, then what IS the "big difference" here?

Let's put it this way...if the government had this same list and not the NRA, and you were on it, would you be concerned?

You don't see a difference between a list that says "this guy might own a gun" and a detailed inventory of every gun that everyone owns? If the government chooses to compile a list of people they think might own guns and my name ends up on it, so be it. My biggest concern with that would be that it's a huge waste of time and money.

So you're saying you don't trust the government with a list of gun owners, but you trust them to not investigate or harass people who PROBABLY have guns?  Given the expansion of probable cause over the years?

Again, when the concern is the gubment knocking on your door and not believing you when you say you don't have the guns they're looking for, what's this "BIG difference" you're talking about? Especially in a system where groups like the NRA fight AGAINST accurate reporting of who owns what, and the assertion is constantly made that gun ownership can't accurately be tracked nor should gun owners be responsible for what happens to their guns after they're lost or stolen or sold.

So the best information may be that list of "this guy might own a gun", and the best way to handle it might be to search everyone.  What better excuse to go door to door?  Isn't that why ...


I'm not defending anyone. I made one small, simple little point in my original post: Having a list of possible gun owners for marketing purposes is not the same as a national gun registry. End of sentence, end of point. Period. Got it? You're the one haring off into conspiracy-land. I never said a word about jack-booted government thugs kicking my door down. I never said anything about whether or not I support the NRA (I don't, BTW). You took your cartoonish caricature of what you believe a gun owner to be and created this little fantasy all on your own.
 
2013-08-21 02:40:07 PM

Rueened: Doom MD: The Name: NRA members won't care as long as it isn't the fedrul gub'mint amassing a database.

Now, if we find out that the NSA has access to this database . . .

Oh wait, they still won't care.

You're right. The NRA having a list of people they send emails and newsletters to is totally the same as the government creating a list of serialized firearms every American owns. This article has a garbage premise.

I heard the government also has a list of people who own motor vehicles. Surely the next step must be confiscation and a forcible return to a pedestrian lifestyle?


What's that gotta do with Ford's mailing list?
 
2013-08-21 02:54:54 PM

Doom MD: So if they don't condemn it you'll become a staunch advocate of the 2nd amendment?


No, it's hardly the only issue surrounding it.
 
2013-08-21 03:03:25 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: The NSA also has one, its called "anyone who has Googled ffor dock enlargement pills"


DOCK enlargement pills? Well, whatever floats your boat I guess
 
2013-08-21 03:05:13 PM

mod3072: lordjupiter: mod3072: lordjupiter: mod3072: IdBeCrazyIf: What's funny is that more than likely one could use existing commerce data to extrapolate who might be existing gun owners based on your age, race, location, purchases, and online activity.

Yet, people bemoan government databases and willfully ignore the private ones.

There is a big difference between a general list of possible/probable gun owners and a specific database of gun owners and what guns they own.

And if the fear is the government is going to come knocking on your door after getting said list, and if acquiring guns legally or illegally makes no difference, then what IS the "big difference" here?

Let's put it this way...if the government had this same list and not the NRA, and you were on it, would you be concerned?

You don't see a difference between a list that says "this guy might own a gun" and a detailed inventory of every gun that everyone owns? If the government chooses to compile a list of people they think might own guns and my name ends up on it, so be it. My biggest concern with that would be that it's a huge waste of time and money.

So you're saying you don't trust the government with a list of gun owners, but you trust them to not investigate or harass people who PROBABLY have guns?  Given the expansion of probable cause over the years?

Again, when the concern is the gubment knocking on your door and not believing you when you say you don't have the guns they're looking for, what's this "BIG difference" you're talking about? Especially in a system where groups like the NRA fight AGAINST accurate reporting of who owns what, and the assertion is constantly made that gun ownership can't accurately be tracked nor should gun owners be responsible for what happens to their guns after they're lost or stolen or sold.

So the best information may be that list of "this guy might own a gun", and the best way to handle it might be to search everyone.  What better excuse to go door to door?  Is ...


Your small, simple little point is not accurate and doesn't address the entire issue.  Period.  got it?  Who cares what you think you meant.
 
2013-08-21 03:13:09 PM

lordjupiter: A) Wrong.  What they do goes way beyond basic customer data collection.  I don't like EITHER.


Yes, they probably also use if for targeted marketing and membership drives OMG!!!! PANIC!!!

lordjupiter: Hold the NRA to their own standards instead.

 
What standard of the NRA have they violated?  Oh wait, you guys are making the idiotic claim that this is tantamount to a firearm registration.  So no, the NRA hasn't violated their own standards against a national firearms registry, no matter how ignorant and retarded you are.
 
2013-08-21 03:24:09 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Giltric: HotWingConspiracy: redmid17: HotWingConspiracy: This text is now purple: HotWingConspiracy: This text is now purple: DROxINxTHExWIND: This text is now purple: DROxINxTHExWIND: The one time the NRA was behind a group actively opposing the government, it was in support of black suffrage. I would think that's the sort of thing you could get behind.

As to the original point, I just want you to be consistent. You're a single-issue voter, except for this. There aren't that many organizations, that when the chips are down, will back an unpopular black guy. But the NRA is one of them.

WAS one of them. Haven't been for quite some time.

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/negroeswithguns/rob.html

http://mije.org/richardprince/nra-was-inspired-black-panthers

The NRA didn't abandon black voters. Black voters abandoned them.

So they only support 2nd Amendment rights for their supporters. Super.

Someone said that upthread as a joke I think, I guess it's true.

NRA has stepped in for black plaintiffs in McDonald v Chicago and Ezell v Chicago. They also supported resident aliens being permitted to have a CCW in nebraska and missouri.

Those actions currently benefit them, they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Lets see where they stand when a black militia emerges to do some patrols. Their backers sure as shiat won't stand for it.

They supported Robert F. Williams when the NAACP didn't.

http://books.google.com/books?id=i4YiA0jWz4EC&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=Ma e+ Mallory&source=bl&ots=ylLsLgCB05&sig=mlQjFHZ02DjzNH4nRu6nep9dvOQ&hl=en &ei=5Lf9SrCTD43bnAfEkLCaCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved= 0CBUQ6AEwAzg8#v=onepage&q&f=false

Williams' book Negroes with Guns (1962), published while he was in exile in Cuba, details his experience with violent racism and his disagreement with the pacifist Civil Rights Movement philosophies. Among others the book influenced Huey Newton, who founded the Black Panthers.

And what did the NRA do for the Black Pant ...


THIS WAS ALMOST 60 YEARS AGO!  Most of the people involved are probably dead!

Jesus, talk about beating a dead horse.
 
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