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(KTVB Boise)   2 wolves killed 176 sheep in one night   (ktvb.com) divider line 337
    More: Sick, Idaho, asphyxiation, Grimm  
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12631 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Aug 2013 at 6:43 PM (46 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-20 10:46:09 PM

HeadLever: ficklefkrfark: /wolves should have the right to live, and ranchers should have the right to kill the ones harassing their herds.

That is ultimately my take.  Guard dogs are a tool, but not failsafe.  There is really no failsafe with wolves when you are open range.  It is just a risk that you need to make.


Like any business, there are risks and expenses. How about the lazy ranchers get of their asses and shepherd their flocks. Like, I dunno, David from the Bible of Capitalism?
 
2013-08-20 10:47:41 PM

doglover: Not wastefully. Not like this.


Then you don't pay attention very well.  See the links I posted upthread.  It is a well known fact that wolves will kill more than they can eat.  Your ignorance of such a fact makes me wonder if you are posting this argument because of ignorance or another agenda.
 
2013-08-20 10:55:16 PM

doglover: Call me when they've got hard proof of something beyond poor animal husbandry and the existence of canines.


Ring - Ring.  See the Dillion, Montana incident.  All of those were confirmed with a necropsy by USFWS agents.
 
2013-08-20 10:56:28 PM

HeadLever: It is a well known fact that wolves will kill more than they can eat.


No, that's not a well known fact. It's a well known accusation of ranchers.

Do you not see the difference?
 
2013-08-20 10:57:24 PM

grimlock1972: Beacause if they had done a better job they would only have lost one or two sheep not mass of them that they did.


You really don't know that.  You don't know the circumstances behind the location of where they were or how/when it happened.
 
2013-08-20 10:58:07 PM

doglover: HeadLever: It is a well known fact that wolves will kill more than they can eat.

No, that's not a well known fact. It's a well known accusation of ranchers.

Do you not see the difference?


If it doesn't support his narrative of "wolf bad, control with with gun!" then he doesn't. He's really quite stupid when it comes down to it -- he has the sport hunter's talking points down pat, but approach with other facts... ;)
 
2013-08-20 10:59:41 PM

djkutch: How about the lazy ranchers get of their asses and shepherd their flocks


They do.  However, with all the other obligations, they can't be there 24/7.  From this article, it sounds like the attack took place at 1:00am.  Again, you have no idea of the circumstances of this.  They may have been 'off thier asses' when this took place.
 
2013-08-20 11:00:49 PM

doglover: No, that's not a well known fact


Maybe not to you.  However, anyone with any experience in the field knows better.
 
2013-08-20 11:02:06 PM

Martin Silenus: If it doesn't support his narrative of "wolf bad, control with with gun!"


You don't need to control with a gun.  It just happens to be the best method of wolf population control.  Oh, and trapping.  We have that here now too.
 
2013-08-20 11:02:40 PM
It's the wolves' land. Ranchers will get reimbursed.
 
2013-08-20 11:04:04 PM

Martin Silenus: -- he has the sport hunter's talking points down pat, but approach with other facts... ;)


You have no facts that you have supplied to this discussion.  Only taking points.  Seems like the only one that is linking to news stories and data is me.
 
2013-08-20 11:05:09 PM

HeadLever: experience in the field


You mean poor animal husbandry skills.
 
2013-08-20 11:05:17 PM
why fer goddsakes wouldn't you have a at least a couple of large shepherding dogs guarding the sheep? Before wolves, weren't there coyotes, mountain lions, feral dogs and thieves trying to get at your livestock?

If I had 2,000 sheep I would invest in a few dogs. Komondor, Great Pyrenees or Anatolian Shepherd, not that rare in the U.S.anymore.
 
2013-08-20 11:05:53 PM

valar_morghulis: Ranchers will get reimbursed.


Sometimes, yes; but not all the time.  For me, I don't mind sharing the land with the wolves.  However, I recognize that they do need to be managed just the same as any other apex predator.
 
2013-08-20 11:06:54 PM

HeadLever: doglover: Blame dogs, an animal known for this kind of behavior, instead of wolves (not really known for this)

wolves are not known for killing sheep?  Are you high?


Wolves don't usually kill sheep like this. Dogs usually do. I've seen and heard reliable reports of dogs running sheep and goats in exactly this fashion, in areas that have no wolves to blame the killings on. Since coyotes can't and don't kill sheep in these numbers, where there are no wolves it MUST be dogs. So why suddenly are wolves solely to blame? What's happening is that mass livestock killings that were formerly not publicized due to being dog killings are now (conveniently) being laid off on wolves so that ranchers and people like yourself who have a hardon for killing wolves will have an excuse.

While I don't doubt that wolves will kill sheep when they get the chance; and I know that wolves sometimes freak out when their prey can't or won't run properly (especially juvenile wolves who go crazy like teenagers anywhere); it seems far more likely to me that given the choice rare predators running sheep and common predators running sheep, the nod should go to the common predators. Or is it your contention that prior to the introduction of wolves, there were no sheep-killings anywhere in Idaho?
 
2013-08-20 11:09:35 PM

HeadLever: I don't mind sharing the land with the wolves


I can tell.
 
2013-08-20 11:11:57 PM

doglover: You mean poor animal husbandry skills.


Not sure what breeding and rearing sheep has to do with protecting them from wolves.  Maybe you don't know the difference between husbandry and shepherding?  It wouldn't suprise me, as you are ignorant on several other well known topics as well.
 
2013-08-20 11:13:38 PM

Egalitarian: why fer goddsakes wouldn't you have a at least a couple of large shepherding dogs guarding the sheep? Before wolves, weren't there coyotes, mountain lions, feral dogs and thieves trying to get at your livestock?

If I had 2,000 sheep I would invest in a few dogs. Komondor, Great Pyrenees or Anatolian Shepherd, not that rare in the U.S.anymore.


They may have.  These ranchers are known to have used them in the past.  However, they have lost quite a few of these dogs to wolves as well and my have gotten tired of spending the money for new ones.
 
2013-08-20 11:14:20 PM

HeadLever: djkutch: How about the lazy ranchers get of their asses and shepherd their flocks

They do.  However, with all the other obligations, they can't be there 24/7.  From this article, it sounds like the attack took place at 1:00am.  Again, you have no idea of the circumstances of this.  They may have been 'off thier asses' when this took place.


Weird how a 7/11 can keep someone around out 1:00 am.
 
2013-08-20 11:15:47 PM

doglover: I can tell.


No, you probably couldn't as you don't seem to be familiar with my position at all.  You can't seem to get it past your narrow world-view that wolves will joykill on occcasion and need to be managed with any other big game/apex predator.  This does not mean the we need to kill them all.
 
2013-08-20 11:16:53 PM
www.empireonline.com
 
2013-08-20 11:19:06 PM

djkutch: Weird how a 7/11 can keep someone around out 1:00 am.


So they are a gas station now?  That is your argument?  Even if they had somone with the sheep, they could have been scattered out over several hundred square miles, if they were on the open range.  Again, they are not going to hire Blackwater to escort every sheep as they would not be long in buisness.  It is a risk/cost balace they have to take.

It is a risk you cannot avoid if you are a rancher in the mountains.
 
2013-08-20 11:22:44 PM

Gyrfalcon: Wolves don't usually kill sheep like this.


They do a couple times a year here.  I have linked a few episodes upthread where the same thing has happened.  And no, it was not dogs.  It was wolves.  Not sure about this case, but many of them actually have radio collars and they have been pinpointed at these scenes before.  It does typically only happen with sheep and not beef for some reason.
 
2013-08-20 11:32:50 PM

HeadLever: djkutch: Weird how a 7/11 can keep someone around out 1:00 am.

So they are a gas station now?  That is your argument?  Even if they had somone with the sheep, they could have been scattered out over several hundred square miles, if they were on the open range.  Again, they are not going to hire Blackwater to escort every sheep as they would not be long in buisness.  It is a risk/cost balace they have to take.

It is a risk you cannot avoid if you are a rancher in the mountains.


Then stop whining about it.

/born and raised in Idaho. How about you?
 
2013-08-20 11:40:42 PM
It's well known humans will hunt, or go to the supermarket and buy, more food than they can eat at the time.  Sensitive to decomposition, unlike wolves, they usually place the excess in a refrigerator or freezer.
 
2013-08-20 11:41:22 PM
List of some other scenes in the past couple of years that indicate surplus killings
120 sheep killed in Dillion, MT in 2009
31 sheep killed in Carey, ID in 2013
13 sheep killed in Gardener, MT in 2013
23 sheep killed in Keating, OR in 2009
13 sheep killed near Boise, ID in 2010
24 sheep killed in Pinedale, WY in 2010
 
2013-08-20 11:51:47 PM

djkutch: Then stop whining about it.

/born and raised in Idaho. How about you?


Yep.  Born about 35 miles SW from where they let loose the wolves in 1995 in Idaho.  Raised in the Salmon River Mountains which was one of the Idaho epicenter for wolves.  I know ranchers that lost animals and I know several of the USFWS agenst that were in charge of managing the situation.  I know the history and the steps these folks tried to take to limit depredation.  Some of it worked and some of it did not.  I know the declines in the elk herds to the point where they no longer offered elk tags for several units.  We have had elk killed within 100 yards of our house during the night.  I know the fight that the environmenatlist put up to keep the states from having management authority over wolves so they could manage them in conjunction with the big game herds.

You?
 
2013-08-20 11:54:59 PM

djkutch: Then stop whining about it.


Not whining about it.  Just refuting your dumb talking points.  The ranchers know this risk better than you and I.  It doesn't necessarily make them any 'worse' of a rancher if some of their sheep end up as wolf chow during one isolated night.
 
2013-08-20 11:55:49 PM

dee_dubya: Yep, you guys are right. I'll bet the sheep asphyxiated themselves, then the wolves came along and had a snack. No chance the wolves running the sheep caused them to bunch and asphyxiate.


Kinda like "guns don't kill people"?
 
2013-08-20 11:57:58 PM
i ctrl-f'd to make sure and yes, not a single shearing joke in a thread full of sheep puns.

/shear insanity
 
2013-08-20 11:58:17 PM

Explodo: And people wonder why ranchers attempted to prevent the wolves from being reintroduced.  That's a significant financial hit.


FIVE PERCENT.
 
2013-08-21 12:01:17 AM

special20: FIVE PERCENT.


in about an hour.
 
2013-08-21 12:04:27 AM

Sock Ruh Tease: BGates: Until you big talking city slickers actually have to deal with these vermin

People actually say "big-talking city slickers" in places where wolves reign over humans?


Would you prefer dumbass city folk?
 
2013-08-21 12:06:03 AM

HeadLever: djkutch: Then stop whining about it.

Not whining about it.  Just refuting your dumb talking points.  The ranchers know this risk better than you and I.  It doesn't necessarily make them any 'worse' of a rancher if some of their sheep end up as wolf chow during one isolated night.


I never called them "worse", I was merely pointing out the expense of business. 176 sheep dead out of how many thousands? Sounds like a tax write off, yet covered by the government if I'm not mistaken.

What town are you from? I did not know elk tags ever were ever reduced because of predation. Where I lived, elk and deer were fed to avoid population starvation in the winter, despite hunting. I am from Soda Springs in Caribou County.
 
2013-08-21 12:07:33 AM

djkutch: HeadLever: djkutch: Weird how a 7/11 can keep someone around out 1:00 am.

So they are a gas station now?  That is your argument?  Even if they had somone with the sheep, they could have been scattered out over several hundred square miles, if they were on the open range.  Again, they are not going to hire Blackwater to escort every sheep as they would not be long in buisness.  It is a risk/cost balace they have to take.

It is a risk you cannot avoid if you are a rancher in the mountains.

Then stop whining about it.

/born and raised in Idaho. How about you?


Where about?  Also being born somewhere is such an accomplishment.  It takes something special to get somebody from the military, either active duty or a dependent, to choose a place to settle down.  I may have been born in Florida and raised in the PWN but I chose Boise to be my home.
 
2013-08-21 12:07:37 AM

HeadLever: special20: FIVE PERCENT.

in about an hour.


That's the sheep's fault. The wolves only bit 10. Can't blame the wolves for years of inbreeding and docility. Anything that spooks them could cause the same.
 
2013-08-21 12:08:08 AM
Nevermind.  You answered before I hit reply
 
2013-08-21 12:12:03 AM

djkutch: I never called them "worse", I was merely pointing out the expense of business


Sure you were

djkutch: How about the lazy ranchers get of their asses and shepherd their flocks.

You had the extra, barn wide, paint brush working overtime.
 
2013-08-21 12:14:21 AM

Smeggy Smurf: Nevermind.  You answered before I hit reply


You found the garden. Enjoy it :-)
 
2013-08-21 12:14:24 AM

doglover: That's the sheep's fault.


Partially true, but the context of my argument was in the financial hit to the rancher.  I will agree that the wolves started the stampeed, but did not cause the eventual trainwreck.  That is just sheep being sheep, right there.
 
2013-08-21 12:16:47 AM

HeadLever: djkutch: I never called them "worse", I was merely pointing out the expense of business

Sure you were

djkutch: How about the lazy ranchers get of their asses and shepherd their flocks.

You had the extra, barn wide, paint brush working overtime.


Still researching where you lived?
 
2013-08-21 12:20:38 AM

djkutch: HeadLever: djkutch: I never called them "worse", I was merely pointing out the expense of business

Sure you were

djkutch: How about the lazy ranchers get of their asses and shepherd their flocks.

You had the extra, barn wide, paint brush working overtime.

Still researching where you lived?


This may be unfair. I've forgotten common courtesy since living in a big city.
 
2013-08-21 12:20:40 AM

djkutch: What town are you from? I did not know elk tags ever were ever reduced because of predation. Where I lived, elk and deer were fed to avoid population starvation in the winter, despite hunting. I am from Soda Springs in Caribou County.


A dinky town between Challis and Stanley that you probably never heard of.  Population is less than the speed limit.  Went to HS in Challis.
 
2013-08-21 12:23:33 AM

djkutch: I've forgotten common courtesy since living in a big city.


djkutch: djkutch: HeadLever: djkutch: I never called them "worse", I was merely pointing out the expense of business

Sure you were

djkutch: How about the lazy ranchers get of their asses and shepherd their flocks.

You had the extra, barn wide, paint brush working overtime.

Still researching where you lived?

This may be unfair. I've forgotten common courtesy since living in a big city.


Meh, just the byproduct of being on fark with a divisive topic like this.
 
2013-08-21 12:37:29 AM

doglover: HeadLever: special20: FIVE PERCENT.

in about an hour.

That's the sheep's fault. The wolves only bit 10. Can't blame the wolves for years of inbreeding and docility. Anything that spooks them could cause the same.


ok, now this is the stupidest arguement you've made all thread. If the wolves run at the sheep causing them to panic and asphyxiate then the wolf killed them.

If I run at you with a sword, am I attacking you? If you panic and run off a cliff, would I not be responsible for your death?
 
2013-08-21 12:42:09 AM

HeadLever: a particular individual: Ranchers want to drive wolves to extinction.

Lol, did we have to clone them for reintroduction?  You are living up to the moron part pretty well with that statement.


WTF are you yammering about? I get it, you're a rancher, or a rancher wannabe, and you've bought into all the hype about wolves. Whatever. If I want to talk to ignoramus hillbillies, I sure don't have to do it on the Internet. In fact, I'm kind of surprised to be doing so. Now, go to bed. With a sheep.
 
2013-08-21 12:45:49 AM

HeadLever: Plus it has been shown that decreases in elk fertility is tied to wolves.


No, it hasn't. That bit of apocrypha was foisted off on fools by fools. I recently read a report on that nonsense. It turns out that it was completely made up by people who don't have any facts to back up their hysterical hatred of wolves.
 
2013-08-21 12:57:57 AM
Firstly, hi obstinate lunkheads of all sides. I like to make good impressions, and if you are offended by what I just said, which I did not include names on, you probably deserved to be offended.

Now then, ... is anyone else missing the fact that the sheep literally killed over 1000% of what the wolves did? SHEEP: THE BANE OF ALL SHEEP.

So, if I have this right, the sheep startled themselves into a bunk, then suffocated. Would a gunshot do that as well? How confined were these sheep that they did their 'defensive huddle' formation SO TIGHT that they suffocated?

Hmm... and regarding Headleaver - why are your numbers like that, in the 'too many sheep killed to be eaten' list you provided; most of them end in the teens, with a few hitting higher and lower... then one that has over a hundred sheep killed. What were the circumstances that lead to such a discrepency between that kill and the others you provided? Was it another strangulation? I would find it very difficult to believe wolves, coyotes, bears, or goats (you know the goats eat ANYTHING, and are heard animals... they have a powerful media arm so you DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT THOUGH o_o) would kill so many sheep; with that many carcasses they wouldn't waste their time killing more, risking injury to procure food that is already plentiful. My best guess is it takes the sheep a bit to die, so they nip and rip a few of them before the sheep start dropping, thus a sort of 'timer game' goes on where a number of sheep are wounded, but not so much so that they are within the wolves threshold for edibility. I could be wrong, I don't know how they hunt, but based on the comments here, it seems like the wolves are attempting to provoke the sheep to run, and doing that by biting.

none of this changes the fact that two wolves shouldn't be able to kill so many in the first place - TWO WOLVES. That is woeful incompetence by the owners of the sheep, a PACK of wolves, sure, ya, that's not really something so easy to manage at 1 am, but you suck as an anything if you let two wolves - TWO - kill 5% of your flock. If it was two Grizzly bears, that'd be different, but this isn't even a pack of wolves... that's just sad. Maybe get better defenses so stray wolves can't pull this kinda stuff, or maybe get less retarded sheep somehow.
 
2013-08-21 02:09:08 AM

Wisdomsage: Firstly, hi obstinate lunkheads of all sides. I like to make good impressions, and if you are offended by what I just said, which I did not include names on, you probably deserved to be offended.

Now then, ... is anyone else missing the fact that the sheep literally killed over 1000% of what the wolves did? SHEEP: THE BANE OF ALL SHEEP.

So, if I have this right, the sheep startled themselves into a bunk, then suffocated. Would a gunshot do that as well? How confined were these sheep that they did their 'defensive huddle' formation SO TIGHT that they suffocated?

Hmm... and regarding Headleaver - why are your numbers like that, in the 'too many sheep killed to be eaten' list you provided; most of them end in the teens, with a few hitting higher and lower... then one that has over a hundred sheep killed. What were the circumstances that lead to such a discrepency between that kill and the others you provided? Was it another strangulation? I would find it very difficult to believe wolves, coyotes, bears, or goats (you know the goats eat ANYTHING, and are heard animals... they have a powerful media arm so you DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT THOUGH o_o) would kill so many sheep; with that many carcasses they wouldn't waste their time killing more, risking injury to procure food that is already plentiful. My best guess is it takes the sheep a bit to die, so they nip and rip a few of them before the sheep start dropping, thus a sort of 'timer game' goes on where a number of sheep are wounded, but not so much so that they are within the wolves threshold for edibility. I could be wrong, I don't know how they hunt, but based on the comments here, it seems like the wolves are attempting to provoke the sheep to run, and doing that by biting.

none of this changes the fact that two wolves shouldn't be able to kill so many in the first place - TWO WOLVES. That is woeful incompetence by the owners of the sheep, a PACK of wolves, sure, ya, that's not really something so easy to manage at 1 am, but you suck as an anything if you let two wolves - TWO - kill 5% of your flock. If it was two Grizzly bears, that'd be different, but this isn't even a pack of wolves... that's just sad. Maybe get better defenses so stray wolves can't pull this kinda stuff, or maybe get less retarded sheep somehow.


I read every last comment in this thread and yours was the only one to use the term "flock". You win.
 
2013-08-21 02:32:39 AM

HeadLever: djkutch: Then stop whining about it.

Not whining about it.  Just refuting your dumb talking points.  The ranchers know this risk better than you and I.  It doesn't necessarily make them any 'worse' of a rancher if some of their sheep end up as wolf chow during one isolated night.


Well sir, I may not totally agree with you on your wolf stance (or probably your political ones) but you have made very rational points, and unlike most of your detractors (including me) I'll give you the benefit of doubt, as you are not championing their eradication and you live in wolf country...so you may have a more hands on opinion.
I hope our country will eventually come to its senses and start finding common ground again.
/I'm looking at you republicans
//and knee jerk democrats....hunting, guns, and agriculture aren't the enemy
 
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