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(Huffington Post)   Apparently the new immigration reform bill would create jerbs   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 29
    More: Interesting, Reform Act, Senate Immigration, Senate, American Action Network, native-born americans, new immigration, American workers, public good  
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599 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Aug 2013 at 1:22 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



29 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-08-20 11:32:52 AM  
ok, they ain't takin' our jerbs... but what about our wimmin?
 
2013-08-20 12:05:29 PM  
I'm all for immigration reform, but these numbers sound, uh, a little optimistic, and gamed by conservative think-tanks to provide cover for Republican politicians.  The reason that conservative business groups want immigration reform is so that they can have an even cheaper, above-the-table source of labor, given the prevalence of e-verify and decrease in border crossings over the years.

Any immigration reform that doesn't also address minimum wage/benefits of low-skill workers is a hollow victory for immigrants and the American people, and a win for Wall Street.
 
2013-08-20 12:21:39 PM  
Of course immigration reform would create jobs.  Some of it may just be on paper, legitimizing people already working but doing so under the table, but that's not a bad thing as those workers would now be entitled to minimum wage at the least, which would help boost wages across the board, and they'd be paying taxes, which helps everyone.

We should significantly rework the H1-B Visa system.  As it stands now it hurts American Citizens in tech fields because it allows companies to hire workers from overseas willing to work for less, and gives companies too much leverage as those workers' right to stay in the country is dependent on the company renewing their work visa, it makes them less likely to complain or fight for higher wages.  Replace H1-Bs with a system of expedited citizenship for qualified workers, and require that they start the path to citizenship immediately.  That will put them on equal footing with US born workers and help prevent companies from abusing the system to pay lower wages.
 
2013-08-20 12:23:11 PM  
Pity it'll never pass
 
2013-08-20 01:25:09 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Replace H1-Bs with a system of expedited citizenship for qualified workers, and require that they start the path to citizenship immediately. That will put them on equal footing with US born workers and help prevent companies from abusing the system to pay lower wages.


How about mandating that any H1Bs (or equivalent) make at least average pay (adjusted by area for COL) for the job. Sort of like the rookie pay scales - you can't pay them nothing, but they can't demand astronomical salaries.

Or something similar. Basically, remove the incentive for companies to immigrate people by removing their ability to pay them less, by rule. Of course, now we're into "what exactly is a comparable job", but that's a question to be debated in committee.
 
2013-08-20 01:25:35 PM  

Fark It: I'm all for immigration reform, but these numbers sound, uh, a little optimistic, and gamed by conservative think-tanks to provide cover for Republican politicians.  The reason that conservative business groups want immigration reform is so that they can have an even cheaper, above-the-table source of labor, given the prevalence of e-verify and decrease in border crossings over the years.

Any immigration reform that doesn't also address minimum wage/benefits of low-skill workers is a hollow victory for immigrants and the American people, and a win for Wall Street.


Este.
 
2013-08-20 01:28:09 PM  
Of course it is. It is going to militarize the border, dump 20k more border patrol troops on the border, give the thumbs up to drones drones drones and lots of other crap we don't need.

See, if everyone would help Mexico stabilize, a large chunk of people who came here illegally would have stayed home. But NOOOO, we can't help our neighbor. They are catholic. And brown. And have different words for everything. Everything! Hell, they can't even say 'illegal' correctly.

I am all for the Dream Act. I am for paths to citizenship. I am for border security. But I am not for turning our southern neighbor into an enemy by making a border full of guns, bombs, and everything else- simply to stop people who want to come up and find work to feed their family.

If we helped Mexico stabilize and overcome their drug cartels and continue to grow their middle class at a reasonable rate, a lot of those problems would go away.

But this isn't how we treat Mexico. We want them unstable so we can continue to pilfer their wealth. Next Up? Their oil.
 
2013-08-20 01:32:08 PM  
But I've been told that the government can't create jobs; so how would passing yet another government regulation (rather than deregulating) create a job?
 
2013-08-20 01:37:00 PM  
They're makin' jeeeoreoreorbs.
Totally different process.
 
2013-08-20 01:37:02 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: As it stands now it hurts American Citizens in tech fields because it allows companies to hire workers from overseas willing to work for less, and gives companies too much leverage as those workers' right to stay in the country is dependent on the company renewing their work visa, it makes them less likely to complain or fight for higher wages.


there is a prevailing wage determination (set by USDOL) that kinda forces an employer to pay a reasonable wage to non-citizen employees.  Also, the position must be offered to Americans looking for employment as well, the company is forced to advertise the position & hell, if someone comes along who is better qualified there goes the immigrants opportunity.  NTM the costs associated with immigrant labor (legal fees, application fees etc.), there are some deterrents & hurdles a company has to jump through, so i've come to the conclusion that an employer must have some sort of working relationship with the immigrant they are willing to employ.
 
2013-08-20 01:38:38 PM  

Fark It: I'm all for immigration reform, but these numbers sound, uh, a little optimistic, and gamed by conservative think-tanks to provide cover for Republican politicians.  The reason that conservative business groups want immigration reform is so that they can have an even cheaper, above-the-table source of labor, given the prevalence of e-verify and decrease in border crossings over the years.

Any immigration reform that doesn't also address minimum wage/benefits of low-skill workers is a hollow victory for immigrants and the American people, and a win for Wall Street.


Sort of correct. Immigration lowers working class wages, and has for decades. And you're correct that this is the reason a right wing think tank would support it.

But raising the minimum wage while allowing immigration reform is a recipe for increases in unemployment among the native born working class. Higher wages means fewer jobs and more immigration means more competition for those jobs. It's that simple.
 
2013-08-20 01:50:33 PM  
Well, those immigrants are going to have to eat something.
 
2013-08-20 01:51:43 PM  

mgshamster: But I've been told that the government can't create jobs; so how would passing yet another government regulation (rather than deregulating) create a job?


i love hearing republicans say that. and what do they say when you suggest closing a military base in their district?
 
2013-08-20 01:53:28 PM  
This must be why Mexico unemployment rate is 0.3%

encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-08-20 01:55:51 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Fark It: I'm all for immigration reform, but these numbers sound, uh, a little optimistic, and gamed by conservative think-tanks to provide cover for Republican politicians.  The reason that conservative business groups want immigration reform is so that they can have an even cheaper, above-the-table source of labor, given the prevalence of e-verify and decrease in border crossings over the years.

Any immigration reform that doesn't also address minimum wage/benefits of low-skill workers is a hollow victory for immigrants and the American people, and a win for Wall Street.

Sort of correct. Immigration lowers working class wages, and has for decades. And you're correct that this is the reason a right wing think tank would support it.

But raising the minimum wage while allowing immigration reform is a recipe for increases in unemployment among the native born working class. Higher wages means fewer jobs and more immigration means more competition for those jobs. It's that simple.


Net immigration has been near zero for a few years.  The immigrants who are already here are working, but doing so under the table, not paying taxes, and depressing wages for legitimate workers by being willing to work for below minimum wage or without workplace safety protections.

Giving amnesty and a path to citizenship for all of our current illegal immigrants will allow them to contribute to the services they're already using through tax dollars, and remove the wage depression effect by forcing companies to pay them more, and thus other workers more.

Raising the minimum wage would also help everyone.  Companies still need the same amount of work done, so they're not going to fire people just because they have to pay more in wages.  They may try to get more productivity out of each worker, but they're already close to the limit there in many industries.  If they want more earnings, the company has to create more output, so they'll have to maintain or expand their workforce.
 
2013-08-20 02:05:25 PM  
Psht. Mexican's will just steal them all.
 
2013-08-20 02:10:00 PM  

FlashHarry: ok, they ain't takin' our jerbs... but what about our wimmin?


Actually I have a thing for hot Latinas so I think its a fair trade.
 
2013-08-20 02:27:20 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Debeo Summa Credo: Fark It: I'm all for immigration reform, but these numbers sound, uh, a little optimistic, and gamed by conservative think-tanks to provide cover for Republican politicians.  The reason that conservative business groups want immigration reform is so that they can have an even cheaper, above-the-table source of labor, given the prevalence of e-verify and decrease in border crossings over the years.

Any immigration reform that doesn't also address minimum wage/benefits of low-skill workers is a hollow victory for immigrants and the American people, and a win for Wall Street.

Sort of correct. Immigration lowers working class wages, and has for decades. And you're correct that this is the reason a right wing think tank would support it.

But raising the minimum wage while allowing immigration reform is a recipe for increases in unemployment among the native born working class. Higher wages means fewer jobs and more immigration means more competition for those jobs. It's that simple.

Net immigration has been near zero for a few years.  The immigrants who are already here are working, but doing so under the table, not paying taxes, and depressing wages for legitimate workers by being willing to work for below minimum wage or without workplace safety protections.

Giving amnesty and a path to citizenship for all of our current illegal immigrants will allow them to contribute to the services they're already using through tax dollars, and remove the wage depression effect by forcing companies to pay them more, and thus other workers more.

Raising the minimum wage would also help everyone.  Companies still need the same amount of work done, so they're not going to fire people just because they have to pay more in wages.  They may try to get more productivity out of each worker, but they're already close to the limit there in many industries.  If they want more earnings, the company has to create more output, so they'll have to maintain or expand their workforce.


The percentage of foreign born people in the US reached a low of 4.7% in 1970. It rebounded to 13% by 2012.

That's a huge inflow of immigration, largely low skill, who have been competing with other low skill workers for jobs in the US.

Liberals like to complain about the stagnation of working class wages over the last 30 to 50 years. Although there are many contributors to that, the increase in immigration is a HUGE factor in depressing working class wages that many liberals try to ignore.

Also, the idea that "companies still need work done so there won't be fewer jobs" is laughably ridiculous. When you raise the price of something, you sell less of it. When supply increases (like immigration increases the supply of labor), the market price decreases.

There are lots of reasons any individual would be in favor of or against any particular policy, however working class citizens who are in favor of immigration reform or increased immigration are generally voting against their own economic interests.
 
2013-08-20 02:46:10 PM  
TuteTibiImperes:
Net immigration has been near zero for a few years.  The immigrants who are already here are working, but doing so under the table, not paying taxes, and depressing wages for legitimate workers by being willing to work for below minimum wage or without workplace safety protections.

(I edited Tute's comment to focus on an issue.  Please read his full comment above to ensure proper context)

Immigrants do pay taxes (sales tax, gas tax...).  They probably don't pay into Unemployment or Social Security because that would require the employer to pay more.  And the whole reason the illegals are being hired is so the employer pays as little as possible.  On the other hand, when you consider they will never receive any of those benefits, I don't see the fact they don't pay those taxes as a fault of theirs.

I also don't think they work for less than minimum wage and without safety protection because they want to.  It's more like the employer knows they have no way to appeal and no one to turn to.

Please stop blaming the victims.  (Not targeted at Tute specifically)  The whole argument is couched in 'how bad the immigrants are' rather than 'why do we let business use slave labor and profit from it'.

The people that come here and work hard.  (10hrs/day, 7 days/week at $3.00/hour)  These are not the people we should be targeting.  Hard work leading to a better life used to be the American Dream.  The current model seems to be the less you actually do, the more you should get paid.

Again, Thanks Tute for allowing me to use your post as a jumping off point.
 
2013-08-20 02:56:14 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Also, the idea that "companies still need work done so there won't be fewer jobs" is laughably ridiculous. When you raise the price of something, you sell less of it. When supply increases (like immigration increases the supply of labor), the market price decreases.

There are lots of reasons any individual would be in favor of or against any particular policy, however working class citizens who are in favor of immigration reform or increased immigration are generally voting against their own economic interests.


Increased labor costs don't necessarily mean an increase in prices, companies could choose to cut profit margins in order to maintain the current price structure if they felt that would result in more earnings overall through greater volume, or to undercut competition who tried to maintain previous profit margins and thereby steal market share.

Plus, raising the minimum wage and legitimizing more workers will mean more people with more money to spend to help drive the economy.  Wealth concentrated at the top does not help the local economy, wealth in the hands of the working and middle classes means that it's getting spent, circulated through local businesses, driving their revenue so that they can pay more employees or pay employees better, and helping the economy grow.

Paying 1,000 employees $50,000 per year and the CEO $1,000,000 will result in a much more vibrant economy than paying 1,000 employees $25,000 per year and the CEO $26,000,000.

rdalton: TuteTibiImperes:
Net immigration has been near zero for a few years.  The immigrants who are already here are working, but doing so under the table, not paying taxes, and depressing wages for legitimate workers by being willing to work for below minimum wage or without workplace safety protections.

(I edited Tute's comment to focus on an issue.  Please read his full comment above to ensure proper context)

Immigrants do pay taxes (sales tax, gas tax...).  They probably don't pay into Unemployment or Social Security because that would require the employer to pay more.  And the whole reason the illegals are being hired is so the employer pays as little as possible.  On the other hand, when you consider they will never receive any of those benefits, I don't see the fact they don't pay those taxes as a fault of theirs.

I also don't think they work for less than minimum wage and without safety protection because they want to.  It's more like the employer knows they have no way to appeal and no one to turn to.

Please stop blaming the victims.  (Not targeted at Tute specifically)  The whole argument is couched in 'how bad the immigrants are' rather than 'why do we let business use slave labor and profit from it'.

The people that come here and work hard.  (10hrs/day, 7 days/week at $3.00/hour)  These are not the people we should be targeting.  Hard work leading to a better life used to be the American Dream.  The current model seems to be the less you actually do, the more you should get paid.

Again, Thanks Tute for allowing me to use your post as a jumping off point.


I agree with your points, I didn't mean to come off as blaming the illegal workers.  Giving them the same protections and wage guarantees as an American citizen would be good for everyone, save perhaps the greedy bastards abusing the system at the top right now, but fark them.
 
2013-08-20 03:08:13 PM  
Wanting the House Republicans to take up a Senate bill that would increase jobs and cut the deficit is never going to farking happen no matter what's on the other end.  What part of obstructionism isn't getting through your thick head, gentle reader?
 
2013-08-20 03:32:02 PM  

rdalton: TuteTibiImperes:
Net immigration has been near zero for a few years.  The immigrants who are already here are working, but doing so under the table, not paying taxes, and depressing wages for legitimate workers by being willing to work for below minimum wage or without workplace safety protections.

(I edited Tute's comment to focus on an issue.  Please read his full comment above to ensure proper context)

Immigrants do pay taxes (sales tax, gas tax...).  They probably don't pay into Unemployment or Social Security because that would require the employer to pay more.  And the whole reason the illegals are being hired is so the employer pays as little as possible.  On the other hand, when you consider they will never receive any of those benefits, I don't see the fact they don't pay those taxes as a fault of theirs.

I also don't think they work for less than minimum wage and without safety protection because they want to.  It's more like the employer knows they have no way to appeal and no one to turn to.

Please stop blaming the victims.  (Not targeted at Tute specifically)  The whole argument is couched in 'how bad the immigrants are' rather than 'why do we let business use slave labor and profit from it'.

The people that come here and work hard.  (10hrs/day, 7 days/week at $3.00/hour)  These are not the people we should be targeting.  Hard work leading to a better life used to be the American Dream.  The current model seems to be the less you actually do, the more you should get paid.

Again, Thanks Tute for allowing me to use your post as a jumping off point.


Of course they work under those terms because they want to. Otherwise they wouldn't come here illegally in the first place. Would they prefer to make $30 an hour with full benefits and double overtime pay and a defined benefit retirement package? Sure, who wouldn't like higher pay?

But they still come for the wages offered, because it's a much better deal than what they had elsewhere. In doing so, they drive the price of unskilled or semi-skilled labor down, adversely affecting the potential wages of those who were here before. That's my point.
 
2013-08-20 05:00:37 PM  
This is absurd doublespeak.  The simple fact is, every new person who comes into this country is going to take one of our jobs, or add to to the ranks of the unemployed.

That's why we have a 90% unemployment rate:  the population rose from 30 million to 300 million between 1850 and today, and those extra 270 million people took all of our jobs.  From the finite set of jobs that never increases with the size of the population.
 
2013-08-20 05:14:32 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Pity it'll never pass


More likely this is WHY it would never pass.
 
2013-08-20 05:33:58 PM  

SilentStrider: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Pity it'll never pass

More likely this is WHY it would never pass.


Yeah... I know

/laser-like focus, and all
 
2013-08-20 10:39:56 PM  

Xcott: This is absurd doublespeak.  The simple fact is, every new person who comes into this country is going to take one of our jobs, or add to to the ranks of the unemployed.

That's why we have a 90% unemployment rate:  the population rose from 30 million to 300 million between 1850 and today, and those extra 270 million people took all of our jobs.  From the finite set of jobs that never increases with the size of the population.


+1, would chuckle again

for those harping about tech firms using H1Bs to lower wages in the tech sector: why don't the firms just offshore the work to low cost locations? if they really wanted to drive down wages, that would do it fairly quickly.
 
2013-08-20 11:41:01 PM  
If they have corruption in government in Mexico, corruption in government will come across the border with them.
If they have drug cartels in Mexico, drug cartels will come across the border with them.
If they have banditry in Mexico, banditry will come across the border with them.
If they have vigilanteism in Mexico, vigilanteism will come across the border with them.
If they have a tendency to resort to revolution in Mexico, the tendency to resort to revolution will come across the border with them.
If they have teachers marching on their congress, that will come across the border with them, too.

And, the Mara Salvatrucha from Central America is a bunch of gangsters.  Don't we have enough of those already?

Secure the border and help those countries solve their own problems as they will allow us to help them do so.
 
2013-08-21 07:02:08 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: Of course immigration reform would create jobs.  Some of it may just be on paper, legitimizing people already working but doing so under the table, but that's not a bad thing as those workers would now be entitled to minimum wage at the least, which would help boost wages across the board

The word you are looking for is inflation?
 
2013-08-21 06:21:43 PM  
Apparently the new immigration reform bill would create jerbs

Yes, it makes it much easier for businesses to create new job in India and China.
 
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