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(Slate)   Tesla Model S receives highest safety rating in American history   (slate.com) divider line 184
    More: Spiffy, Model S, Americans, classification society, feedback loops, electric cars  
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4240 clicks; posted to Geek » on 20 Aug 2013 at 10:08 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



184 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-08-20 10:05:26 AM  
It's such a pretty car and the photo they pick is a closeup of the badge?
 
2013-08-20 10:10:40 AM  
WANT!
 
2013-08-20 10:11:03 AM  
The Tesla S may be regarded as one of the most important cars in history in a few decades - the Model T of the modern electric.

It's the first electric to gain any kind of mainstream acceptance, and will only fuel the level consumer demand and refinements necessary to bring down manufacturing costs.

/who am I kidding... the oil companies will squish it in a year or two
//and salt the earth
 
2013-08-20 10:11:56 AM  

Voiceofreason01: It's such a pretty car and the photo they pick is a closeup of the badge?


It's really derivative of Maserati styling though.  That's nitpicking, of course.  It would just be nicer to see unique designs.
 
2013-08-20 10:13:29 AM  
It's hard to be unsafe when you can't go anywhere because your battery is out, amirite?!?!
 
2013-08-20 10:14:09 AM  

clkeagle: The Tesla S may be regarded as one of the most important cars in history in a few decades - the Model T of the modern electric.

It's the first electric to gain any kind of mainstream acceptance, and will only fuel the level consumer demand and refinements necessary to bring down manufacturing costs.

/who am I kidding... the oil companies will squish it in a year or two
//and salt frack the earth


FTFY
 
2013-08-20 10:16:23 AM  

Glitchwerks: Voiceofreason01: It's such a pretty car and the photo they pick is a closeup of the badge?

It's really derivative of Maserati styling though.  That's nitpicking, of course.  It would just be nicer to see unique designs.


"Oh no! My girlfriend looks like Cameron Diaz"

/I'll get over it :-)
 
2013-08-20 10:16:27 AM  

JerseyTim: It's hard to be unsafe when you can't go anywhere because your battery is out, amirite?!?!


I see multiple Teslas every day now on my commute, so someone is driving them.
 
2013-08-20 10:18:05 AM  
Because no one actually drives them. They just leave them in their driveways to out-smug the neighborhood's smug Prius drivers.
 
2013-08-20 10:18:24 AM  
I'm sure that rating is in no way politically motivated...
 
2013-08-20 10:19:50 AM  
i prefer the Howard
 
2013-08-20 10:20:13 AM  

Explodo: I'm sure that rating is in no way politically motivated...


And without any evidence to prove such a claim, the amount of political motivation is limited only by your imagination!
 
2013-08-20 10:20:43 AM  
 
2013-08-20 10:21:01 AM  

drewogatory: JerseyTim: It's hard to be unsafe when you can't go anywhere because your battery is out, amirite?!?!

I see multiple Teslas every day now on my commute, so someone is driving them.


Exactly.
 
2013-08-20 10:22:13 AM  

drewogatory: JerseyTim: It's hard to be unsafe when you can't go anywhere because your battery is out, amirite?!?!

I see multiple Teslas every day now on my commute, so someone is driving them.


I've only seen one out in the wild so far, and I live in the fairly liberal NYC metro area.

Only seen a couple of Volts for that matter.

There are, however, a shiatload of Priuses.
 
2013-08-20 10:23:16 AM  

Explodo: I'm sure that rating is in no way politically motivated...


depletedcranium.com
 
2013-08-20 10:23:18 AM  

enik: Because no one actually drives them. They just leave them in their driveways to out-smug the neighborhood's smug Prius drivers.


The difference is that the Prius is a terrible car, it's only real redeeming characteristic is that it's a hybrid. The Tesla on the other hand is an excellent car that's very competitive in it's price range and it's also electric.
 
2013-08-20 10:25:00 AM  

IntertubeUser: WANT!


Since it's release, the Model S has been in the top 3 of my list of things to buy if I should ever win the lottery.
 
2013-08-20 10:25:20 AM  

Doc Daneeka: drewogatory: JerseyTim: It's hard to be unsafe when you can't go anywhere because your battery is out, amirite?!?!

I see multiple Teslas every day now on my commute, so someone is driving them.

I've only seen one out in the wild so far, and I live in the fairly liberal NYC metro area.

Only seen a couple of Volts for that matter.

There are, however, a shiatload of Priuses.


Now that I think about it, I haven't seen one in the wild. My commute through the Lincoln Tunnel usually involves a shiatton luxury automobiles, multiple Porsches and the occasional Maserati and Ferrari.  I have seen a bunch of Volts lately.

/wants the Model X
 
2013-08-20 10:31:52 AM  

JerseyTim: Doc Daneeka: drewogatory: JerseyTim: It's hard to be unsafe when you can't go anywhere because your battery is out, amirite?!?!

I see multiple Teslas every day now on my commute, so someone is driving them.

I've only seen one out in the wild so far, and I live in the fairly liberal NYC metro area.

Only seen a couple of Volts for that matter.

There are, however, a shiatload of Priuses.

Now that I think about it, I haven't seen one in the wild. My commute through the Lincoln Tunnel usually involves a shiatton luxury automobiles, multiple Porsches and the occasional Maserati and Ferrari.  I have seen a bunch of Volts lately.

/wants the Model X


I live in Bumfark, Mississippi, and there is a woman in town who owns a Tesla.
 
2013-08-20 10:32:01 AM  

clkeagle: The Tesla S may be regarded as one of the most important cars in history in a few decades - the Model T of the modern electric.

It's the first electric to gain any kind of mainstream acceptance, and will only fuel the level consumer demand and refinements necessary to bring down manufacturing costs.

/who am I kidding... the oil companies will squish it in a year or two
//and salt the earth


I work at a major oil company and there are several in the parking lot, and a few I know of who are on waitlist.  Not sure why people think that oil companies care about these.  Does everything HAVE to have a bad guy?
 
2013-08-20 10:33:41 AM  

JerseyTim: Doc Daneeka: drewogatory: JerseyTim: It's hard to be unsafe when you can't go anywhere because your battery is out, amirite?!?!

I see multiple Teslas every day now on my commute, so someone is driving them.

I've only seen one out in the wild so far, and I live in the fairly liberal NYC metro area.

Only seen a couple of Volts for that matter.

There are, however, a shiatload of Priuses.

Now that I think about it, I haven't seen one in the wild. My commute through the Lincoln Tunnel usually involves a shiatton luxury automobiles, multiple Porsches and the occasional Maserati and Ferrari.  I have seen a bunch of Volts lately.

/wants the Model X


The one Model S I did see was when I happened to be driving through a residential neighborhood in a very upscale town in Westchester.

I think it's still mostly a toy for the rich at this point.
 
2013-08-20 10:36:18 AM  
plcow:
I work at a major oil company and there are several in the parking lot, and a few I know of who are on waitlist.  Not sure why people think that oil companies care about these.  Does everything HAVE to have a bad guy?

To be fair Carl-Henric Svanberg (Chairman of BP) is basically a Bond villain
 
2013-08-20 10:38:55 AM  
Unless you're leasing it, or Tesla is going to replace the battery pack for free, it's a car with near 0 resale value due to the fact that once that battery stops putting out as much power it'll cost a fortune to replace the battery pack...at least that's how they've all been so far.

Via the Tesla forum, replacement battery packs cost $30,000, which is nearly half the price of the car.  They also say the batteries are designed to last 10 years.  Well, I'll check in on that in 10 years and see how everyone is doing.  I've never had rechargeable batteries that didn't lose a significant amount of output in considerably less time.  Suddenly your 240 mile range is a 40 mile range and you can plunk down thirty grand to fix it or just buy another one.  Pfft.  I have, however, never dealt with such high-end batteries.  As I said, we'll see.

I prefer to buy things that I can plan to keep indefinitely without having to pay for them again.
 
2013-08-20 10:39:15 AM  

JerseyTim: /wants the Model X


I'll take the rumored Model S AWD.
 
2013-08-20 10:39:57 AM  

JerseyTim: Doc Daneeka: drewogatory: JerseyTim: It's hard to be unsafe when you can't go anywhere because your battery is out, amirite?!?!

I see multiple Teslas every day now on my commute, so someone is driving them.

I've only seen one out in the wild so far, and I live in the fairly liberal NYC metro area.

Only seen a couple of Volts for that matter.

There are, however, a shiatload of Priuses.

Now that I think about it, I haven't seen one in the wild. My commute through the Lincoln Tunnel usually involves a shiatton luxury automobiles, multiple Porsches and the occasional Maserati and Ferrari.  I have seen a bunch of Volts lately.

/wants the Model X


I've seen one around here in the burbs of STL. We don't even have the charging network they're building in the northeast. Nice looking car.

I tend to agree that this thing is likely to be the car that starts shifting people's perceptions of BEVs. They still aren't for everybody, but for the first time it's an actual practical sedan that will work for families.

Still not likely to buy one, but I'm glad to see Tesla gaining traction. Hopefully they can keep it going and keep getting prices to drop.
 
2013-08-20 10:42:08 AM  

Doc Daneeka: drewogatory: JerseyTim: It's hard to be unsafe when you can't go anywhere because your battery is out, amirite?!?!

I see multiple Teslas every day now on my commute, so someone is driving them.

I've only seen one out in the wild so far, and I live in the fairly liberal NYC metro area.

Only seen a couple of Volts for that matter.

There are, however, a shiatload of Priuses.


I live in Newport Beach, which helps explain it. There's a dealer at the farking mall and a service center a couple miles away in Costa Mesa.
 
2013-08-20 10:42:56 AM  
Of course they're safe.  No one can afford it.
 
2013-08-20 10:43:48 AM  

Explodo: Via the Tesla forum, replacement battery packs cost $30,000, which is nearly half the price of the car.  They also say the batteries are designed to last 10 years.  Well, I'll check in on that in 10 years and see how everyone is doing.  I've never had rechargeable batteries that didn't lose a significant amount of output in considerably less time.  Suddenly your 240 mile range is a 40 mile range and you can plunk down thirty grand to fix it or just buy another one.  Pfft.  I have, however, never dealt with such high-end batteries.  As I said, we'll see.


Gotta say, right now I'm not too worried about the battery angle. That was a major concern when the hybrids started coming out. As it turns out, the batteries last longer than anybody predicted and the battery packs are less expensive to rework/replace than anticipated. When you don't keep going from 100% to 0% charge and back again (as we tend to do with consumer electronic devices), the batteries last longer.

IIRC, the estimates for things like a Prius battery pack was in the neighborhood of $10,000 and 100K miles of life, and current prices are far lower while lifespan being much higher. Here's a bit of actual numbers on how the hybrid batteries have done. I imagine the battery packs in BEVs will end up being pretty similar:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/assault-on-battery-three-early-hybrid-e ne rgy-storage-fears-that-never-materialized/
 
2013-08-20 10:43:59 AM  

Doc Daneeka: drewogatory: JerseyTim: It's hard to be unsafe when you can't go anywhere because your battery is out, amirite?!?!

I see multiple Teslas every day now on my commute, so someone is driving them.

I've only seen one out in the wild so far, and I live in the fairly liberal NYC metro area.

Only seen a couple of Volts for that matter.

There are, however, a shiatload of Priuses.


Chicago metro, and I see them almost every time I have to do any serious driving.  They do look a lot like Audi, the new Jaguars, etc.
 
2013-08-20 10:45:05 AM  

Voiceofreason01: The Tesla on the other hand is an excellent car that's very competitive in it's price range


Except if you split the benefits of the powerplant out like that and keep them separate it's not competitive. At a $63k post-rebate BASE price it starts out with a sticker near the top of the mid-range luxury cars it competes with and gets stomped on the performance tests against most of them in everything but a sprint to 60. And at well north of $100k for a sporty version with proper handling and performance you're talking about a vehicle that's starting to try and compete in a category with GT cars.

The Tesla S is only competitive if you consider the unique benefits of the powerplant in the comparison. Which is only fair. You can't arbitrarily exclude bits of the car when talking about how it sizes up to the competition.
 
2013-08-20 10:46:36 AM  
Somebody around here has a black Tesla S. I sometimes wonder if it's the same person who drives the black Rolls Royce.
 
2013-08-20 10:46:56 AM  

Explodo: Unless you're leasing it, or Tesla is going to replace the battery pack for free, it's a car with near 0 resale value due to the fact that once that battery stops putting out as much power it'll cost a fortune to replace the battery pack...at least that's how they've all been so far.

Via the Tesla forum, replacement battery packs cost $30,000, which is nearly half the price of the car.  They also say the batteries are designed to last 10 years.  Well, I'll check in on that in 10 years and see how everyone is doing.  I've never had rechargeable batteries that didn't lose a significant amount of output in considerably less time.  Suddenly your 240 mile range is a 40 mile range and you can plunk down thirty grand to fix it or just buy another one.  Pfft.  I have, however, never dealt with such high-end batteries.  As I said, we'll see.

I prefer to buy things that I can plan to keep indefinitely without having to pay for them again.


Studies have shown the batteries in the roadster are performing better than expected.

So if you buy the car at 240 mile range, then after 100k miles, you'll be getting just over the 200 mile range.  I don't think their resale value is going to be all that concerning when they finally start hitting the used car lots.  By that time, I would expect the battery prices to have dropped significantly, anyway.  As a bonus, the battery swap stations Musk wants to put in place should provide a steady stream of inventory for a used battery market.
 
2013-08-20 10:50:48 AM  
I've seen at least 2 during morning rush heading from St. Pete to Tampa, so yeah, not just a toy.
 
2013-08-20 10:56:28 AM  
ITT: people who irrationally despise everything about electric cars and get all hot and bothered that one might actually prove popular, accessible and practical.
 
2013-08-20 10:59:43 AM  
My boss drives one and I see several on my commute to work.  On any given day I'll see three or four.  I also live right between the Tesla dealership and the Tesla service center.  Draw what conclusions you wish.
 
2013-08-20 11:00:32 AM  

plcow: I work at a major oil company and there are several in the parking lot, and a few I know of who are on waitlist. Not sure why people think that oil companies care about these. Does everything HAVE to have a bad guy?


Since Teslas charge on mains power, and fracking technology has North America sitting on a natural gas reserve of at least 150 years, the smart money is on energy companies being more than happy to shift from overseas oil extraction to domestic gas production.
 
2013-08-20 11:02:31 AM  
This because a car that is never driven is incredibly safe, right?

/No danger of degloving.
 
2013-08-20 11:04:53 AM  

Inquisitive Inquisitor: My boss drives one and I see several on my commute to work.  On any given day I'll see three or four.  I also live right between the Tesla dealership and the Tesla service center.  Draw what conclusions you wish.


Shiat, I've seen one around Kansas City and the closest dealer is St. Louis.
 
2013-08-20 11:07:18 AM  

Doc Daneeka: I think it's still mostly a toy for the rich at this point.


Pretty much.  It is a luxury car, hence the price.  So only the rich are going to be able to afford the thing anyway.  It being electric doesn't really mean you're saving any money in gas, due to the initial price tag.  Rather, it being electric is going to give you instant torque, which makes for a whole different driving experience.  Hopefully the tech does trickle down to us lowly folk who can only afford $20-30k cars.
 
2013-08-20 11:09:05 AM  

Explodo: Unless you're leasing it, or Tesla is going to replace the battery pack for free, it's a car with near 0 resale value due to the fact that once that battery stops putting out as much power it'll cost a fortune to replace the battery pack...at least that's how they've all been so far.

Via the Tesla forum, replacement battery packs cost $30,000, which is nearly half the price of the car.  They also say the batteries are designed to last 10 years.  Well, I'll check in on that in 10 years and see how everyone is doing.  I've never had rechargeable batteries that didn't lose a significant amount of output in considerably less time.  Suddenly your 240 mile range is a 40 mile range and you can plunk down thirty grand to fix it or just buy another one.  Pfft.  I have, however, never dealt with such high-end batteries.  As I said, we'll see.

I prefer to buy things that I can plan to keep indefinitely without having to pay for them again.


When I think of things that keep their resale value, don't require constant maintenance, and run essentially forever, I think of automobiles.
 
2013-08-20 11:09:05 AM  

Voiceofreason01: enik: Because no one actually drives them. They just leave them in their driveways to out-smug the neighborhood's smug Prius drivers.

The difference is that the Prius is a terrible car, it's only real redeeming characteristic is that it's a hybrid. The Tesla on the other hand is an excellent car that's very competitive in it's price range and it's also electric.


What exactly is the price range?
 
2013-08-20 11:09:10 AM  

plcow: Not sure why people think that oil companies care about these.


This.

Every single claim of the "Miracle Carburetor" or "Engine Mileage Extender" uses the Big Oil excuse when the product fails to perform. Big Oil could give a shiat less about Tesla and every other alternate energy car out there because oil isn't all about gasoline.
 
2013-08-20 11:10:13 AM  

Voiceofreason01: Shiat, I've seen one around Kansas City and the closest dealer is St. Louis.


I know a guy who owns one in Des Moines.  We're not that far from you.  I'm not sure where he bought it though, I'll have to ask.
 
2013-08-20 11:10:31 AM  

Kimpak: Doc Daneeka: I think it's still mostly a toy for the rich at this point.

Pretty much.  It is a luxury car, hence the price.  So only the rich are going to be able to afford the thing anyway.  It being electric doesn't really mean you're saving any money in gas, due to the initial price tag.  Rather, it being electric is going to give you instant torque, which makes for a whole different driving experience.  Hopefully the tech does trickle down to us lowly folk who can only afford $20-30k cars.


But said rich person shopped the Tesla S against a Mercedes S-Class, a BMW 7-Series, and an Audi A8 before purchasing.  It's not like it was down to a Ford Fusion or a Tesla S.  The zero gasoline thing makes it very attractive versus other large luxury cars.
 
2013-08-20 11:12:14 AM  

JerseyTim: Doc Daneeka: drewogatory: JerseyTim: It's hard to be unsafe when you can't go anywhere because your battery is out, amirite?!?!

I see multiple Teslas every day now on my commute, so someone is driving them.

I've only seen one out in the wild so far, and I live in the fairly liberal NYC metro area.

Only seen a couple of Volts for that matter.

There are, however, a shiatload of Priuses.

Now that I think about it, I haven't seen one in the wild. My commute through the Lincoln Tunnel usually involves a shiatton luxury automobiles, multiple Porsches and the occasional Maserati and Ferrari.  I have seen a bunch of Volts lately.

/wants the Model X


The model X looks awesome. Would pre-order if I had the money
 
2013-08-20 11:12:18 AM  
the model s is a hobby compared to actual consumer production.

20 thousand tesla model s per year versus 30 thousand per month just for the prius c.

it is a toy/fetish for the rich. congratulate yourselves for owning one.
 
2013-08-20 11:14:46 AM  
I like the things I read about it as time goes on, but yeah it's still a rich person's toy. Maybe in another 25-30 years there will be an EV ready for someone who works for a living.
 
2013-08-20 11:20:35 AM  

SkittlesAreYum: Explodo: Unless you're leasing it, or Tesla is going to replace the battery pack for free, it's a car with near 0 resale value due to the fact that once that battery stops putting out as much power it'll cost a fortune to replace the battery pack...at least that's how they've all been so far.

Via the Tesla forum, replacement battery packs cost $30,000, which is nearly half the price of the car.  They also say the batteries are designed to last 10 years.  Well, I'll check in on that in 10 years and see how everyone is doing.  I've never had rechargeable batteries that didn't lose a significant amount of output in considerably less time.  Suddenly your 240 mile range is a 40 mile range and you can plunk down thirty grand to fix it or just buy another one.  Pfft.  I have, however, never dealt with such high-end batteries.  As I said, we'll see.

I prefer to buy things that I can plan to keep indefinitely without having to pay for them again.

When I think of things that keep their resale value, don't require constant maintenance, and run essentially forever, I think of automobiles.


My 1965 Nissan Patrol, 1970 Ford Bronco, and 1967 Plymouth Satellite are well past their expiration dates.
 
2013-08-20 11:21:38 AM  

tricycleracer: But said rich person shopped the Tesla S against a Mercedes S-Class, a BMW 7-Series, and an Audi A8 before purchasing.  It's not like it was down to a Ford Fusion or a Tesla S.  The zero gasoline thing makes it very attractive versus other large luxury cars.


Good point.

If it were me though, I'd still go with any of those other 3.  But that's just like, my opinion man.
 
2013-08-20 11:23:22 AM  
Do I want one? Yes. Especially the model X.

Can I technically afford one? Probably. Assuming I only ever use it to go to work and back and I and my family don't do anything but school/work for a few years.

Can I reasonably afford one? No. And that's the biggest stumbling block.
 
2013-08-20 11:23:26 AM  

Explodo: I'm sure that rating is in no way politically motivated...


Quite the opposite.  Politicians owned by the dealership lobby are doing all they can to kill it.
 
2013-08-20 11:25:26 AM  
It's apparently a very nice car (compared with other, gas powered, luxury automobiles).  Consumer Reports gave it a road test score of 99 out of 100, for instance.  Of course, you still can't really go on a road trip with it (although they sure are trying to set up charging stations everywhere), but, frankly, 99% of the time you are just going to be driving around town, and it's fine for that.
 
2013-08-20 11:25:38 AM  
Wow, no pics yet? and this is one of the sexiest cars out there today.
 
2013-08-20 11:28:37 AM  

Tricky Chicken: Wow, no pics yet? and this is one of the sexiest cars out there today.


pluginchicagometro.org
 
2013-08-20 11:35:28 AM  

Kimpak: Tricky Chicken: Wow, no pics yet? and this is one of the sexiest cars out there today.

[pluginchicagometro.org image 850x531]


I know I'm in the minority on this opinion, but I hate all those electric screens in cars.  I like my cars to have high-tech mechanicals and simple interiors.  I like to have gauges that show all the info that I need to know(which you can't really get in most cars).  I don't much care about the radio or even AC.  My wife, on the other hand, loves all those do-dads in the car.  They're just expensive gadgets to have to fix when they break.  Give me a USB port to plug into that's got enough data streaming from the ECU on demand and can handle audio input and I'm happy.  I really wish the OEMs would get behind that.
 
2013-08-20 11:36:00 AM  

PrivateCaboose: Voiceofreason01: enik: Because no one actually drives them. They just leave them in their driveways to out-smug the neighborhood's smug Prius drivers.

The difference is that the Prius is a terrible car, it's only real redeeming characteristic is that it's a hybrid. The Tesla on the other hand is an excellent car that's very competitive in it's price range and it's also electric.

What exactly is the price range?


The base model starts at around $65k which is on the pricey side of the 5-series range or around what you'd pay for one of Audi's better models. Fully loaded you're talking M5 or A8 money(sticking with 4 doors). Both of which are easily better cars than the Tesla. Like skozlaw was saying above the novelty of the Tesla's electric drive is an important part of it's value. But the Tesla works as a sports car the Prius includes all of the very worst characteristics of an economy car(small, low power) but without the price(new Prius is 26$K) and for that money why wouldn't I buy a Fusion Hybrid or even a regular Focus/Camry/accord since in the real world they'll end of getting nearly the same mileage as a Prius anyway, especially if you spend much time on the highway?
 
2013-08-20 11:39:22 AM  

Kimpak: Voiceofreason01: Shiat, I've seen one around Kansas City and the closest dealer is St. Louis.

I know a guy who owns one in Des Moines.  We're not that far from you.  I'm not sure where he bought it though, I'll have to ask.


Sounds like they're opening a dealer in Kansas City soon so I expect to start seeing more of them. It's a pretty solid 250 miles from Saint Louis to Kansas City so I assume he had it trailered in.
 
2013-08-20 11:42:39 AM  

Explodo: My 1965 Nissan Patrol, 1970 Ford Bronco, and 1967 Plymouth Satellite are well past their expiration dates.


And I'm sure your only associated operating costs are gas, oil and brake pads.
 
2013-08-20 11:44:07 AM  
if they can get the price down to $20-$30K I would totally buy one.
 
2013-08-20 11:45:32 AM  

theorellior: Explodo: My 1965 Nissan Patrol, 1970 Ford Bronco, and 1967 Plymouth Satellite are well past their expiration dates.

And I'm sure your only associated operating costs are gas, oil and brake pads.


I'm pretty sure the 1967 Plymouth Satellite runs on dung chips.  They're very economical, especially if you get the hybrid model with a lever for your passenger to pump.
 
2013-08-20 11:47:43 AM  

Explodo: Kimpak: Tricky Chicken: Wow, no pics yet? and this is one of the sexiest cars out there today.

[pluginchicagometro.org image 850x531]

I know I'm in the minority on this opinion, but I hate all those electric screens in cars.  I like my cars to have high-tech mechanicals and simple interiors.  I like to have gauges that show all the info that I need to know(which you can't really get in most cars).  I don't much care about the radio or even AC.  My wife, on the other hand, loves all those do-dads in the car.  They're just expensive gadgets to have to fix when they break.  Give me a USB port to plug into that's got enough data streaming from the ECU on demand and can handle audio input and I'm happy.  I really wish the OEMs would get behind that.


So, you're basically just going to nay-say anything posted about this car ever. Got it.
 
2013-08-20 11:50:00 AM  

Explodo: SkittlesAreYum: Explodo: Unless you're leasing it, or Tesla is going to replace the battery pack for free, it's a car with near 0 resale value due to the fact that once that battery stops putting out as much power it'll cost a fortune to replace the battery pack...at least that's how they've all been so far.

Via the Tesla forum, replacement battery packs cost $30,000, which is nearly half the price of the car.  They also say the batteries are designed to last 10 years.  Well, I'll check in on that in 10 years and see how everyone is doing.  I've never had rechargeable batteries that didn't lose a significant amount of output in considerably less time.  Suddenly your 240 mile range is a 40 mile range and you can plunk down thirty grand to fix it or just buy another one.  Pfft.  I have, however, never dealt with such high-end batteries.  As I said, we'll see.

I prefer to buy things that I can plan to keep indefinitely without having to pay for them again.

When I think of things that keep their resale value, don't require constant maintenance, and run essentially forever, I think of automobiles.

My 1965 Nissan Patrol, 1970 Ford Bronco, and 1967 Plymouth Satellite are well past their expiration dates.


Congratulations, you're the exception.  I'm willing to bet that 3 standard deviations worth of people replace their primary car within 10 years of purchase.
 
2013-08-20 11:50:30 AM  

Lumber Jack Off: if they can get the price down to $20-$30K I would totally buy one.


I'm pretty sure every car looks like a good deal if you say "I'd like it to remain exactly as-is, but pay one-third the price."

Tesla doesn't have to crack that market.  Plenty of successful car companies stay in the "luxury" space without having to put out a $20K model.
 
2013-08-20 11:51:41 AM  
and it came away with a score that the company characterizes as the highest rating ever received

I like with Tesla, which the media adores, their marketing materials are reprinted as news articles.

I have brief with Elon Musk or Tesla at all.  But, the media just adores them.  Imagine if a company like BP printed materials that said they received the 'highest safety rating ever received'.  Would the media reprint news articles straight from the company website press releases for BP?

The media is artificially propping Tesla up.  They are treating them uniquely.  The media doesn't reprint company press releases as news articles, taking them at their word for every company?  Why only Tesla?  Because it serves their political agenda.  Because it advances the electronic car agenda.  Whatever Tesla says, the media blindly accepts.  They doesn't question it, they aren't skeptical.  Tesla is a for-profit business.  When has the media ever not been skeptical of an evil for-profit business?  The media, with their political agenda and bias, wants certain for-profit businesses like Tesla to succeed over others, like BP.  And they do their part to try to make that happen.
 
2013-08-20 11:52:53 AM  
Last time I bought a new car it was going to be the Volt or the Leaf, but I decided to go for an interim car, the Fiat 500c. By the time she's used up I'll be ready for the mature electric car. Tesla or whatever is ready at the time. I do keep my cars a long time, 200k, so it will be a while, enough time for them to get their acts together.
 
2013-08-20 11:53:22 AM  

SlothB77: I like

how with Tesla,

SlothB77: I have

no brief with Elon Musk or Tesla at all.

sigh.  my thoughts were coming faster than I could type.
 
2013-08-20 11:55:51 AM  

USA Prime Credit Peggy: Explodo: Kimpak: Tricky Chicken: Wow, no pics yet? and this is one of the sexiest cars out there today.

[pluginchicagometro.org image 850x531]

I know I'm in the minority on this opinion, but I hate all those electric screens in cars.  I like my cars to have high-tech mechanicals and simple interiors.  I like to have gauges that show all the info that I need to know(which you can't really get in most cars).  I don't much care about the radio or even AC.  My wife, on the other hand, loves all those do-dads in the car.  They're just expensive gadgets to have to fix when they break.  Give me a USB port to plug into that's got enough data streaming from the ECU on demand and can handle audio input and I'm happy.  I really wish the OEMs would get behind that.

So, you're basically just going to nay-say anything posted about this car ever. Got it.


No no.  Not at all.  For specific types of driving and pricepoints I think that electric cars are wonderful.  They don't fit my needs.  The interior styling isn't to my taste, but there isn't a current car that is.
 
2013-08-20 11:59:50 AM  

chimp_ninja: theorellior: Explodo: My 1965 Nissan Patrol, 1970 Ford Bronco, and 1967 Plymouth Satellite are well past their expiration dates.

And I'm sure your only associated operating costs are gas, oil and brake pads.

I'm pretty sure the 1967 Plymouth Satellite runs on dung chips.  They're very economical, especially if you get the hybrid model with a lever for your passenger to pump.


You know, with mechanical aptitude comes the ability to change things as you see fit.  Want a modern engine in an old car?  Go for it!  Want modern brakes, steering, and suspension?  No problem!  You can change things to be as you'd like them to be.  A '67 Satellite, while being listed as a midsize car, weighs less than a current Challenger does by a lot.

I love the style of old cars.  My goal is always modern mechanicals with old style.  I want my interiors to feel like I'm sitting in the 60s but I don't want awful 60s performance.
 
2013-08-20 11:59:51 AM  
Next step. Add induction charging (goes to Wired article on how South Korea is powering it's electric buses)

Goodbye gasoline. Or at least, go sit in the corner gasoline > middle east.
 
2013-08-20 12:00:06 PM  

SlothB77: and it came away with a score that the company characterizes as the highest rating ever received

I like with Tesla, which the media adores, their marketing materials are reprinted as news articles.

I have brief with Elon Musk or Tesla at all.  But, the media just adores them.  Imagine if a company like BP printed materials that said they received the 'highest safety rating ever received'.  Would the media reprint news articles straight from the company website press releases for BP?

The media is artificially propping Tesla up.  They are treating them uniquely.  The media doesn't reprint company press releases as news articles, taking them at their word for every company?  Why only Tesla?  Because it serves their political agenda.  Because it advances the electronic car agenda.  Whatever Tesla says, the media blindly accepts.  They doesn't question it, they aren't skeptical.  Tesla is a for-profit business.  When has the media ever not been skeptical of an evil for-profit business?  The media, with their political agenda and bias, wants certain for-profit businesses like Tesla to succeed over others, like BP.  And they do their part to try to make that happen.


Yeah. It's about time those poor, downtrodden, demonized oil companies got their due for all of the great work they fund. Nobody ever gives the oil companies any credit at all, but when there's an environmental disaster, they pony up more cash than anybody. And what do they get in return? Scorn and derision from hippies and a bunch of whining about "clean air" and "global warming". Those billions in tax subsidies are small consolation and richly deserved.

Oil companies - America's real heros
 
2013-08-20 12:00:16 PM  

akula: I've seen one around here in the burbs of STL. We don't even have the charging network they're building in the northeast.


A lot of people's use-cases will be covered fine by 240V charging. I have a Leaf, put in a 240V 30A station at the house (about $1000 to buy and $1000 to install), and can charge a typical day's driving in a couple hours, or 0-100% in 4 hours.

Mrs. Anomaly's been driving it lately because she drives more than I, and it saves a bunch of money over the 17MPG minivan ($0.035/mile vs. $0.206/mile).
 
2013-08-20 12:02:50 PM  

Explodo: No no.  Not at all.  For specific types of driving and pricepoints I think that electric cars are wonderful.  They don't fit my needs.  The interior styling isn't to my taste, but there isn't a current car that is.


Here's as close as I can get for you.  Subaru WRX STi.  Superboobs have a more minimalist dashboard style than some others.

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-08-20 12:04:24 PM  

tricycleracer: Kimpak: Doc Daneeka: I think it's still mostly a toy for the rich at this point.

Pretty much.  It is a luxury car, hence the price.  So only the rich are going to be able to afford the thing anyway.  It being electric doesn't really mean you're saving any money in gas, due to the initial price tag.  Rather, it being electric is going to give you instant torque, which makes for a whole different driving experience.  Hopefully the tech does trickle down to us lowly folk who can only afford $20-30k cars.

But said rich person shopped the Tesla S against a Mercedes S-Class, a BMW 7-Series, and an Audi A8 before purchasing.  It's not like it was down to a Ford Fusion or a Tesla S.  The zero gasoline thing makes it very attractive versus other large luxury cars.


The zero gas thing is attractive so they don't have to touch the gas pump handle that was last used by some dirty plebian in a KIA.
 
2013-08-20 12:04:52 PM  

Voiceofreason01: plcow:
I work at a major oil company and there are several in the parking lot, and a few I know of who are on waitlist.  Not sure why people think that oil companies care about these.  Does everything HAVE to have a bad guy?

To be fair Carl-Henric Svanberg (Chairman of BP) is basically a Bond villain


So is Elon Musk!
 
2013-08-20 12:05:23 PM  

Stile4aly: Explodo: SkittlesAreYum: Explodo: Unless you're leasing it, or Tesla is going to replace the battery pack for free, it's a car with near 0 resale value due to the fact that once that battery stops putting out as much power it'll cost a fortune to replace the battery pack...at least that's how they've all been so far.

Via the Tesla forum, replacement battery packs cost $30,000, which is nearly half the price of the car.  They also say the batteries are designed to last 10 years.  Well, I'll check in on that in 10 years and see how everyone is doing.  I've never had rechargeable batteries that didn't lose a significant amount of output in considerably less time.  Suddenly your 240 mile range is a 40 mile range and you can plunk down thirty grand to fix it or just buy another one.  Pfft.  I have, however, never dealt with such high-end batteries.  As I said, we'll see.

I prefer to buy things that I can plan to keep indefinitely without having to pay for them again.

When I think of things that keep their resale value, don't require constant maintenance, and run essentially forever, I think of automobiles.

My 1965 Nissan Patrol, 1970 Ford Bronco, and 1967 Plymouth Satellite are well past their expiration dates.

Congratulations, you're the exception.  I'm willing to bet that 3 standard deviations worth of people replace their primary car within 10 years of purchase.


Being the exception, going your own way, can be a pain.  I know I want different things than most people.  I can't buy a new car that doesn't annoy me.  It's hard to even find a belt that's well made anymore.  Everyone plans to replace things soon so everything is made to be replaced.  When I make things, I make them to last.  Unfortunately, that's not the model that the world follows anymore.
 
2013-08-20 12:05:47 PM  

Voiceofreason01: It's such a pretty car and the photo they pick is a closeup of the badge?


You are correct.  Allow me to set things right.

www.autoweek.com
 
2013-08-20 12:07:06 PM  

Explodo: I love the style of old cars. My goal is always modern mechanicals with old style. I want my interiors to feel like I'm sitting in the 60s but I don't want awful 60s performance.


Lemme get this straight... you brought up the fact that you like old cars because they last and you don't have to replace battery packs for loads of cash, and then you start talking about how you've replaced the original engines in those cars with modern IC engines... for loads of cash.

What exactly was your original point?
 
2013-08-20 12:09:43 PM  

theorellior: Explodo: I love the style of old cars. My goal is always modern mechanicals with old style. I want my interiors to feel like I'm sitting in the 60s but I don't want awful 60s performance.

Lemme get this straight... you brought up the fact that you like old cars because they last and you don't have to replace battery packs for loads of cash, and then you start talking about how you've replaced the original engines in those cars with modern IC engines... for loads of cash.

What exactly was your original point?


You can change all the mechanicals in an old car to make it perform like a modern car for less money than a battery pack for a Tesla if you do the work yourself.  At that point, you have a functionally new car that should last for 20-30 more years.
 
2013-08-20 12:09:56 PM  

theorellior: Explodo: I love the style of old cars. My goal is always modern mechanicals with old style. I want my interiors to feel like I'm sitting in the 60s but I don't want awful 60s performance.

Lemme get this straight... you brought up the fact that you like old cars because they last and you don't have to replace battery packs for loads of cash, and then you start talking about how you've replaced the original engines in those cars with modern IC engines... for loads of cash.

What exactly was your original point?


He has loads of cash.
 
2013-08-20 12:12:20 PM  

SirTanon: Voiceofreason01: It's such a pretty car and the photo they pick is a closeup of the badge?

You are correct.  Allow me to set things right.

[www.autoweek.com image 850x510]


SCHWING!!

I've never seen a DB9 in person, but from what they shoewd on Top Gear, aren't they similar?

Or am I once again completely wrong.

And where can I see a DB9 in person? Around DC
 
2013-08-20 12:12:30 PM  

Inquisitive Inquisitor: My boss drives one and I see several on my commute to work.  On any given day I'll see three or four.  I also live right between the Tesla dealership and the Tesla service center.  Draw what conclusions you wish.


You drink orange juice.
 
2013-08-20 12:13:36 PM  

plcow: Voiceofreason01: plcow:
I work at a major oil company and there are several in the parking lot, and a few I know of who are on waitlist.  Not sure why people think that oil companies care about these.  Does everything HAVE to have a bad guy?

To be fair Carl-Henric Svanberg (Chairman of BP) is basically a Bond villain

So is Elon Musk!


fair point
 
2013-08-20 12:15:52 PM  

Tricky Chicken: SirTanon: Voiceofreason01: It's such a pretty car and the photo they pick is a closeup of the badge?

You are correct.  Allow me to set things right.

[www.autoweek.com image 850x510]

SCHWING!!

I've never seen a DB9 in person, but from what they shoewd on Top Gear, aren't they similar?

Or am I once again completely wrong.

And where can I see a DB9 in person? Around DC


The Tesla strongly resembles a Maserati Quattraporte

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-08-20 12:16:32 PM  
Holy Crap!  The Tesla website says they have "FREE" charging stations and they are putting them up all around the country.  How the heck can this work? Even if it costs more at first, if you never have to pay to fuel (charge) it, wouldn't this be the lowest cost option over time?
 
2013-08-20 12:20:17 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Tricky Chicken: SirTanon: Voiceofreason01: It's such a pretty car and the photo they pick is a closeup of the badge?

You are correct.  Allow me to set things right.

[www.autoweek.com image 850x510]

SCHWING!!

I've never seen a DB9 in person, but from what they shoewd on Top Gear, aren't they similar?

Or am I once again completely wrong.

And where can I see a DB9 in person? Around DC

The Tesla strongly resembles a Maserati Quattraporte

[upload.wikimedia.org image 320x163]


Maybe I'm thinking of one of the Jag models they featured lately.
 
2013-08-20 12:25:22 PM  

Explodo: It's hard to even find a belt that's well made anymore.


This is not too difficult. You may just not know how to look for one. Going to regular clothing shops won't get you a decent belt. Try looking online for belts intended for people who concealed-carry a firearm. You'll find many good quality belts at decent prices... thicker material that doesn't sag or stretch. Can't help you regarding your vehicle preferences though.
 
2013-08-20 12:29:45 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Tricky Chicken: SirTanon: Voiceofreason01: It's such a pretty car and the photo they pick is a closeup of the badge?

You are correct.  Allow me to set things right.

[www.autoweek.com image 850x510]

SCHWING!!

I've never seen a DB9 in person, but from what they shoewd on Top Gear, aren't they similar?

Or am I once again completely wrong.

And where can I see a DB9 in person? Around DC

The Tesla strongly resembles a Maserati Quattraporte

[upload.wikimedia.org image 320x163]


I happened by one on the Beltway a couple weekends ago.  In the new toll lanes right around Rt 7.  Pretty silver color.
 
2013-08-20 12:31:31 PM  
Soon as they make an Ironman-red-and-gold version of the Tesla, I'm buying one.
 
2013-08-20 12:37:32 PM  

Explodo: You can change all the mechanicals in an old car to make it perform like a modern car for less money than a battery pack for a Tesla if you do the work yourself. At that point, you have a functionally new car that should last for 20-30 more years.


LOL. So we'd probably need to factor in the cost of an engine stand, various blocks, hydraulic jacks, and an assortment of tools into this equation. Not to mention the time it takes to do the work, the time it takes to learn how to do the work properly, the money it costs to correct any mistakes made, the opportunity cost of using garage or driveway square footage, and the time it takes to research exactly which modern engine one would drop into a Satellite and how one would go about doing that. Throw in some machine shop costs because there's no way around that with this kind of work. Now that I've looked at all the factors, I'm sure that's saving loads of time, money and sweat.

I like you. You're funny.
 
2013-08-20 12:39:08 PM  

akula: Explodo: It's hard to even find a belt that's well made anymore.

This is not too difficult. You may just not know how to look for one. Going to regular clothing shops won't get you a decent belt. Try looking online for belts intended for people who concealed-carry a firearm. You'll find many good quality belts at decent prices... thicker material that doesn't sag or stretch. Can't help you regarding your vehicle preferences though.


I have a bit of a gut, will a higher quality belt stop the tops of my pants from rolling over the top of the belt?
 
2013-08-20 12:43:57 PM  

theorellior: Explodo: You can change all the mechanicals in an old car to make it perform like a modern car for less money than a battery pack for a Tesla if you do the work yourself. At that point, you have a functionally new car that should last for 20-30 more years.

LOL. So we'd probably need to factor in the cost of an engine stand, various blocks, hydraulic jacks, and an assortment of tools into this equation. Not to mention the time it takes to do the work, the time it takes to learn how to do the work properly, the money it costs to correct any mistakes made, the opportunity cost of using garage or driveway square footage, and the time it takes to research exactly which modern engine one would drop into a Satellite and how one would go about doing that. Throw in some machine shop costs because there's no way around that with this kind of work. Now that I've looked at all the factors, I'm sure that's saving loads of time, money and sweat.

I like you. You're funny.


And you know... fuel costs for the next 20 years.
 
2013-08-20 12:45:52 PM  

Uranus Is Huge!: Nobody ever gives the oil companies any credit at all, but when there's an environmental disaster, they pony up more cash than anybody.


I remember when I was kid, I screwed up and trashed the kitchen really bad.  Flooded that part of the house, ruined the carpet, shorted out the fridge which caused the food to spoil.  Now when I realized what happened, I went all out cleaning it all up.  But you know how it is, the mildew smell never really gets out.  Had to throw out some really good stuffed crabs my deceased grandfather made. Some handmade, family heirloom type things were ruined beyond repair.

But does anybody ever thank me for doing the lion share of the clean up?  Hell no.  All I ever get is how I ruined all this stuff because I wanted to save a few bucks on a washer hose.  I mean, I was looking at the big picture pocketed a few bucks on a cheaper hose instead of the one my dad told me to get!  Its so unfair!
 
2013-08-20 12:46:34 PM  

Explodo: theorellior: Explodo: I love the style of old cars. My goal is always modern mechanicals with old style. I want my interiors to feel like I'm sitting in the 60s but I don't want awful 60s performance.

Lemme get this straight... you brought up the fact that you like old cars because they last and you don't have to replace battery packs for loads of cash, and then you start talking about how you've replaced the original engines in those cars with modern IC engines... for loads of cash.

What exactly was your original point?

You can change all the mechanicals in an old car to make it perform like a modern car for less money than a battery pack for a Tesla if you do the work yourself.  At that point, you have a functionally new car that should last for 20-30 more years.


Not everybody knows how to do that stuff. it's nice that you do but most of us don't. I'm a mechanical engineer and I can't do all that stuff.
 
2013-08-20 12:46:53 PM  

Doc Daneeka: JerseyTim: Doc Daneeka: drewogatory: JerseyTim: It's hard to be unsafe when you can't go anywhere because your battery is out, amirite?!?!

I see multiple Teslas every day now on my commute, so someone is driving them.

I've only seen one out in the wild so far, and I live in the fairly liberal NYC metro area.

Only seen a couple of Volts for that matter.

There are, however, a shiatload of Priuses.

Now that I think about it, I haven't seen one in the wild. My commute through the Lincoln Tunnel usually involves a shiatton luxury automobiles, multiple Porsches and the occasional Maserati and Ferrari.  I have seen a bunch of Volts lately.

/wants the Model X

The one Model S I did see was when I happened to be driving through a residential neighborhood in a very upscale town in Westchester.

I think it's still mostly a toy for the rich at this point.


I know one person with one. She's a bookkeeper for a plumbing company.
 
2013-08-20 12:48:17 PM  

Tricky Chicken: SirTanon: Voiceofreason01: It's such a pretty car and the photo they pick is a closeup of the badge?

You are correct.  Allow me to set things right.

[www.autoweek.com image 850x510]

SCHWING!!

I've never seen a DB9 in person, but from what they shoewd on Top Gear, aren't they similar?

Or am I once again completely wrong.

And where can I see a DB9 in person? Around DC


You're right.. they do look _somewhat_ similar.  The DB9 is actually just about my favorite car - period.  So let's have a look.

Tesla Model S:
oi40.tinypic.com

Aston Martin DB9:
3.bp.blogspot.com

...yeah, one is reminiscent of the other, but seeing them side-by-side, not really as close as I thought.  It's the front grill that does it.

Still, both beautiful cars.
 
2013-08-20 12:48:48 PM  

Tricky Chicken: Holy Crap!  The Tesla website says they have "FREE" charging stations and they are putting them up all around the country.  How the heck can this work? Even if it costs more at first, if you never have to pay to fuel (charge) it, wouldn't this be the lowest cost option over time?


You do it like a drug dealer and get the people hooked first.  Or, they know that there is little infrastructure for the vehicles they are trying to sell.  So build it out so you can sell your cars in more locations.  Once there is large acceptance and penetration, you can start charging or sell off the stations.  There will likely be more competition for charging stations as more and more EVs are on the road.
 
2013-08-20 12:50:16 PM  

Explodo: Unless you're leasing it, or Tesla is going to replace the battery pack for free, it's a car with near 0 resale value due to the fact that once that battery stops putting out as much power it'll cost a fortune to replace the battery pack...at least that's how they've all been so far.

Via the Tesla forum, replacement battery packs cost $30,000, which is nearly half the price of the car.  They also say the batteries are designed to last 10 years.  Well, I'll check in on that in 10 years and see how everyone is doing.  I've never had rechargeable batteries that didn't lose a significant amount of output in considerably less time.  Suddenly your 240 mile range is a 40 mile range and you can plunk down thirty grand to fix it or just buy another one.  Pfft.  I have, however, never dealt with such high-end batteries.  As I said, we'll see.

I prefer to buy things that I can plan to keep indefinitely without having to pay for them again.


You have absolutely no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.
 
2013-08-20 12:52:35 PM  

akula: IIRC, the estimates for things like a Prius battery pack was in the neighborhood of $10,000 and 100K miles of life, and current prices are far lower while lifespan being much higher. Here's a bit of actual numbers on how the hybrid batteries have done. I imagine the battery packs in BEVs will end up being pretty similar:


They'll actually do even better, due to better chemistries these days.  Tests show that the latest generation of EV batteries will be good for at least 3000 cycles.  If you do the math, that's over 600,000 miles.  There are like maybe 2 volvos in the world that have lasted that long.
 
2013-08-20 12:54:15 PM  

Explodo: They don't fit my needs


Then your opinion on the matter is irrelevant and you should feel free to stop trolling and GTFO.
 
2013-08-20 12:54:26 PM  

Hollie Maea: There are like maybe 2 volvos in the world that have lasted that long.


And Explodo owns one of them.
 
2013-08-20 12:55:48 PM  

Uranus Is Huge!: Yeah. It's about time those poor, downtrodden, demonized oil companies got their due for all of the great work they fund. Nobody ever gives the oil companies any credit at all, but when there's an environmental disaster, they pony up more cash than anybody. And what do they get in return? Scorn and derision from hippies and a bunch of whining about "clean air" and "global warming". Those billions in tax subsidies are small consolation and richly deserved.

Oil companies - America's real heros


The media treats Tesla just like it treats Obama.  No skepticism.  No criticism.  Just blind support.  Tesla says they got the highest score ever.  What media used to do was investigate that claim, verify it was true.  Now, they just blindly parrot the company's line.

They have an agenda - global warming, electronic-powered cars, green energy.  They are just using Tesla to advance that agenda.  If Tesla and Musk were anti-gay marriage christian conservatives, the media would be complaining 'oh, the cars are too expensive.  They are just one more advantage the super rich has over everyone.  They are only selling a small, insignificant number.  They don't employ that many people because they use robots instead - it could be bad for jobs and unemployment if they get big.'  and any other criticisms they can find.  It is all very petty and transparent.
 
2013-08-20 12:57:41 PM  

tricycleracer: Hollie Maea: There are like maybe 2 volvos in the world that have lasted that long.

And Explodo owns one of them.


Running on an Arc reactor powered by his own dumbassery.

/It's a word now.
 
2013-08-20 12:59:18 PM  
I like the Tesla, the one improvement I would make on it would be to have a solar panel on the hood or roof. I know it would proabably look ugly but it would increase range and proabably cut down on charging.
 
2013-08-20 01:02:48 PM  

SirTanon: Tricky Chicken: SirTanon: Voiceofreason01: It's such a pretty car and the photo they pick is a closeup of the badge?

You are correct.  Allow me to set things right.

[www.autoweek.com image 850x510]

SCHWING!!

I've never seen a DB9 in person, but from what they shoewd on Top Gear, aren't they similar?

Or am I once again completely wrong.

And where can I see a DB9 in person? Around DC

You're right.. they do look _somewhat_ similar.  The DB9 is actually just about my favorite car - period.  So let's have a look.

Tesla Model S:
[oi40.tinypic.com image 640x425]

Aston Martin DB9:
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 550x367]

...yeah, one is reminiscent of the other, but seeing them side-by-side, not really as close as I thought.  It's the front grill that does it.

Still, both beautiful cars.


I'll be in my bunk.
 
2013-08-20 01:07:42 PM  

SlothB77: The media treats Tesla just like it treats Obama. No skepticism. No criticism. Just blind support. Tesla says they got the highest score ever. What media used to do was investigate that claim, verify it was true. Now, they just blindly parrot the company's line.

They have an agenda - global warming, electronic-powered cars, green energy. They are just using Tesla to advance that agenda. If Tesla and Musk were anti-gay marriage christian conservatives, the media would be complaining 'oh, the cars are too expensive. They are just one more advantage the super rich has over everyone. They are only selling a small, insignificant number. They don't employ that many people because they use robots instead - it could be bad for jobs and unemployment if they get big.' and any other criticisms they can find. It is all very petty and transparent.


images.sodahead.com
 
2013-08-20 01:09:34 PM  

groppet: I like the Tesla, the one improvement I would make on it would be to have a solar panel on the hood or roof. I know it would proabably look ugly but it would increase range and proabably cut down on charging.


The solar roof on the Fisker Karma didn't do a whole heck of a lot.  I guess it's better than nothing, though.
 
2013-08-20 01:10:07 PM  

groppet: know it would proabably look ugly but it would increase range and proabably cut down on charging.


Nope. Fisker did that on the Karma. It was only good for about 4-5 miles a week if it was bright and sunny the whole time.
 
2013-08-20 01:11:02 PM  

wingnut396: Tricky Chicken: Holy Crap!  The Tesla website says they have "FREE" charging stations and they are putting them up all around the country.  How the heck can this work? Even if it costs more at first, if you never have to pay to fuel (charge) it, wouldn't this be the lowest cost option over time?

You do it like a drug dealer and get the people hooked first.  Or, they know that there is little infrastructure for the vehicles they are trying to sell.  So build it out so you can sell your cars in more locations.  Once there is large acceptance and penetration, you can start charging or sell off the stations.  There will likely be more competition for charging stations as more and more EVs are on the road.


But if there is a charging station in your town, you get free electrons. The map on their site shows that by next year they will be all over the place. And the 2015 map looks like the US has measles.
 
2013-08-20 01:11:19 PM  
Don't they literally explode if water gets into the battery casing? As someone who lives in an area prone to flash floods, I'm going to pass.
 
2013-08-20 01:12:57 PM  

groppet: I like the Tesla, the one improvement I would make on it would be to have a solar panel on the hood or roof. I know it would proabably look ugly but it would increase range and proabably cut down on charging.


Meh, with the area you've got to work with you'll never get more than 200 Watt/hours of charging potential, and that's with nice clear sunny days. Too much delicate silicon and weird wiring to make it workable, anyway. A covered parking area with solar panels feeding a charging station, that's more like it.
 
2013-08-20 01:13:24 PM  

SlothB77: Uranus Is Huge!: Yeah. It's about time those poor, downtrodden, demonized oil companies got their due for all of the great work they fund. Nobody ever gives the oil companies any credit at all, but when there's an environmental disaster, they pony up more cash than anybody. And what do they get in return? Scorn and derision from hippies and a bunch of whining about "clean air" and "global warming". Those billions in tax subsidies are small consolation and richly deserved.

Oil companies - America's real heros

The media treats Tesla just like it treats Obama.  No skepticism.  No criticism.  Just blind support.  Tesla says they got the highest score ever.  What media used to do was investigate that claim, verify it was true.  Now, they just blindly parrot the company's line.

They have an agenda - global warming, electronic-powered cars, green energy.  They are just using Tesla to advance that agenda.  If Tesla and Musk were anti-gay marriage christian conservatives, the media would be complaining 'oh, the cars are too expensive.  They are just one more advantage the super rich has over everyone.  They are only selling a small, insignificant number.  They don't employ that many people because they use robots instead - it could be bad for jobs and unemployment if they get big.'  and any other criticisms they can find.  It is all very petty and transparent.


How do you bare the near constant persecution...

...that occurs almost entirely in your imagination?
 
2013-08-20 01:18:19 PM  
whar royalties?  Wharr????

www.bielek-debunked.com
 
2013-08-20 01:20:25 PM  

plcow: clkeagle: The Tesla S may be regarded as one of the most important cars in history in a few decades - the Model T of the modern electric.

It's the first electric to gain any kind of mainstream acceptance, and will only fuel the level consumer demand and refinements necessary to bring down manufacturing costs.

/who am I kidding... the oil companies will squish it in a year or two
//and salt the earth

I work at a major oil company and there are several in the parking lot, and a few I know of who are on waitlist.  Not sure why people think that oil companies care about these.  Does everything HAVE to have a bad guy?


Given how important oil is to other industries, and has less public visibility than gasoline prices, I'd be happy as hell to get rid of the low commodity pricing of my product to the general public.  Delivering product to industrial users, tailored to specific requirements (instead of a generic one) where that customer is locked in on a long term contract with me?  Holy hell would I prefer that as an oil company.

But let's create a market where we just burn the stuff for as low a price as possible.  That would be better!
 
2013-08-20 01:23:00 PM  

SlothB77: If Tesla and Musk were anti-gay marriage christian conservatives, the media would be complaining 'oh, the cars are too expensive.They are just one more advantage the super rich has over everyone. They are only selling a small, insignificant number. They don't employ that many people because they use robots instead - it could be bad for jobs and unemployment if they get big.'

 

That's because it makes for good news when stupid, hateful assholes aren't succeeding in the market. People like social justice.
 
2013-08-20 01:23:42 PM  
ws-na.amazon-adsystem.com
The Tesla Connection?
 
2013-08-20 01:25:12 PM  

groppet: I know it would proabably look ugly but it would increase range and proabably cut down on charging.


Actually it wouldn't really help much at all.

The Tesla Model S has an 85kwh battery pack.  But state of the art solar panels put out no more than .2kw per square meter. With the standard 5 hours of equivalent peak hours of sun per day, you are talking only 1kwh per day for a 1 square meter panel which is about as big as you could put on the roof.  The Model S uses about 0.3kwh per mile, so your solar panel would only get you an extra three miles of range per day.
The super chargers run at 120kw, so it would only take 30 seconds for them to match your solar panel's daily output.
 
2013-08-20 01:28:13 PM  

Yes please: Don't they literally explode if water gets into the battery casing?


No, they don't.

On the other hand, your car will explode if you drop a lit cigarette into the gas tank.
 
2013-08-20 01:35:16 PM  

SlothB77: The media treats Tesla just like it treats Obama.  No skepticism.  No criticism.  Just blind support.  Tesla says they got the highest score ever.  What media used to do was investigate that claim, verify it was true.  Now, they just blindly parrot the company's line.


The NHTSA scores and results are available online.  It's not hard to check them against the results of other automobiles and having briefly done so nothing really jumped out as being patently false.  Hell, the fact that the Model S broke the machine used to administer the roof crush would lend credence to their claims of superior safety.

Of course, I just exerted far more effort in looking into this issue than you yourself did when you started throwing around baseless accusations of collusion and bias.  All you have presented thus far is a personal assumption without factual basis which only serves to demonstrate your own personal bias.
 
2013-08-20 01:37:11 PM  
Everyone talks as if the Model S is the be-all, end-all for Tesla.  The ultimate goal is to have a $30k sedan in the market before the end of this decade.  What's the point of building charging stations if the cars aren't on the road to use them?

The only things that could possibly stop slow down Tesla are: the Big Three lobby, the Auto Sales lobby, the Oil Lobby, and the UAW.

What's not to like about the future of Tesla?  They're an American manufacturer, they've paid back their government loan EARLY, they sell direct to the consumer, they have one of the most advanced assembly lines ever constructed, and - oh yeah - they happen to make safe, reliable cars that hit their benchmarks.
 
2013-08-20 01:40:14 PM  
What, no love for the Coil Voltic?

images.wikia.com
 
2013-08-20 01:45:28 PM  

Doc Daneeka: The one Model S I did see was when I happened to be driving through a residential neighborhood in a very upscale town in Westchester.

I think it's still mostly a toy for the rich at this point.


I'm pretty sure I wouldn't know one if I saw it on the road.  As for toy for the rich...well, the first model used a Lotus body, so, yeah.  Electric cars are frequently accused of being dorky, so Tesla took a different approach.

BTW, their earlier sportscar model had a flat torque vs. RPM curve.  Wanna drag?
 
2013-08-20 01:48:11 PM  
None of what is being discussed mattersThe big questions is:
Do you still call it a gas pedal?
 
2013-08-20 01:58:15 PM  

ikanreed: Do you still call it a gas pedal?


They're phasing out those terms and calling them the deceleratrix and velocitator.
 
2013-08-20 02:01:01 PM  

Teaser: What, no love for the Coil Voltic?

[images.wikia.com image 795x536]


Is that a thing?
 
2013-08-20 02:01:35 PM  

Tricky Chicken: Holy Crap!  The Tesla website says they have "FREE" charging stations and they are putting them up all around the country.  How the heck can this work? Even if it costs more at first, if you never have to pay to fuel (charge) it, wouldn't this be the lowest cost option over time?


The supercharger stations are covered with solar panels.  Since the chargers will be unoccupied more often than not (just like the pumps at a typical gas station), Tesla expects to put more energy into the grid from the solar panels than they take out by charging electric cars, making it possible to offer free charging to Tesla owners.
 
2013-08-20 02:15:31 PM  

anfrind: Tricky Chicken: Holy Crap!  The Tesla website says they have "FREE" charging stations and they are putting them up all around the country.  How the heck can this work? Even if it costs more at first, if you never have to pay to fuel (charge) it, wouldn't this be the lowest cost option over time?

The supercharger stations are covered with solar panels.  Since the chargers will be unoccupied more often than not (just like the pumps at a typical gas station), Tesla expects to put more energy into the grid from the solar panels than they take out by charging electric cars, making it possible to offer free charging to Tesla owners.


and

Hollie Maea: groppet: I know it would proabably look ugly but it would increase range and proabably cut down on charging.

Actually it wouldn't really help much at all.

The Tesla Model S has an 85kwh battery pack.  But state of the art solar panels put out no more than .2kw per square meter. With the standard 5 hours of equivalent peak hours of sun per day, you are talking only 1kwh per day for a 1 square meter panel which is about as big as you could put on the roof.  The Model S uses about 0.3kwh per mile, so your solar panel would only get you an extra three miles of range per day.
The super chargers run at 120kw, so it would only take 30 seconds for them to match your solar panel's daily output.


The maths don't work out.  Unless those solar panels are huge.  I think Mr Burns tried something similar.
 
2013-08-20 02:15:53 PM  

Hollie Maea: If you do the math, that's over 600,000 miles.  There are like maybe 2 volvos in the world that have lasted that long.


I dunno.  Volvo is currently running ads featuring the guy who bought a Volvo in 1966 and has put three million miles on it since then.
 
2013-08-20 02:29:52 PM  

Yes please: Don't they literally explode if water gets into the battery casing?


Yea, just like when you accidentally put your cellphone through the wash it explodes.

Maybe lay off the far-right anti-electric bullshiat, eh?
 
2013-08-20 02:30:55 PM  

Yes please: Don't they literally explode if water gets into the battery casing? As someone who lives in an area prone to flash floods, I'm going to pass.


Forgetting that the car might get wet was a major oversight. One can only hope they may be able to engineer their way out of that, using  - I dunno - some sort of water-proof material, if science progresses that far.
 
2013-08-20 02:38:05 PM  

Erik_Emune: Yes please: Don't they literally explode if water gets into the battery casing? As someone who lives in an area prone to flash floods, I'm going to pass.

Forgetting that the car might get wet was a major oversight. One can only hope they may be able to engineer their way out of that, using  - I dunno - some sort of water-proof material, if science progresses that far.


What would we do without the Fark Armchair Corps of Engineers to save us?
 
2013-08-20 02:47:40 PM  
We could probably get better access to the solar panels at night.
 
2013-08-20 02:53:07 PM  

Tricky Chicken: And the 2015 map looks like the US has measles.


Farking anti-vaccination nutjobs. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if that happens. They'll then try to cure it with cinnamon and honey because they saw it on Facebook.
 
2013-08-20 03:02:05 PM  

anfrind: Tricky Chicken: Holy Crap!  The Tesla website says they have "FREE" charging stations and they are putting them up all around the country.  How the heck can this work? Even if it costs more at first, if you never have to pay to fuel (charge) it, wouldn't this be the lowest cost option over time?

The supercharger stations are covered with solar panels.  Since the chargers will be unoccupied more often than not (just like the pumps at a typical gas station), Tesla expects to put more energy into the grid from the solar panels than they take out by charging electric cars, making it possible to offer free charging to Tesla owners.


Currently they are targeted squarely at the luxury market, but they have said repeatedly that they would like to get to building a car in the $30k price range.  I would expect that once they build that car, there's going to be a few currently standard features that get moved into the 'option' category.  Free public charging may be one of them.
 
2013-08-20 03:05:51 PM  

Driedsponge: there's going to be a few currently standard features that get moved into the 'option' category.  Free public charging may be one of them.


In fact, Supercharging is "optional" on the 60 kWh Tesla S.  It's only free on the 85 kWh models.
 
2013-08-20 03:31:32 PM  

Hollie Maea: Yes please: Don't they literally explode if water gets into the battery casing?

No, they don't.

On the other hand, your car will explode if you drop a lit cigarette into the gas tank.


It might actually go out if the vapor wasn't at the right ratio.  Remember you ignite the vapor, not the liquid.
 
2013-08-20 03:42:31 PM  

JK47: SlothB77: The media treats Tesla just like it treats Obama.  No skepticism.  No criticism.  Just blind support.  Tesla says they got the highest score ever.  What media used to do was investigate that claim, verify it was true.  Now, they just blindly parrot the company's line.

The NHTSA scores and results are available online.  It's not hard to check them against the results of other automobiles and having briefly done so nothing really jumped out as being patently false.  Hell, the fact that the Model S broke the machine used to administer the roof crush would lend credence to their claims of superior safety.

Of course, I just exerted far more effort in looking into this issue than you yourself did when you started throwing around baseless accusations of collusion and bias.  All you have presented thus far is a personal assumption without factual basis which only serves to demonstrate your own personal bias.



This.

Here's an explanation.

tl;dr: The Tesla scored 5/5 in every category and subcategory
 
2013-08-20 03:46:57 PM  

Kimpak: Tricky Chicken: Wow, no pics yet? and this is one of the sexiest cars out there today.

[pluginchicagometro.org image 850x531]


Uh, I'll be in my bunk garage.
 
2013-08-20 03:49:33 PM  

SirTanon: Voiceofreason01: It's such a pretty car and the photo they pick is a closeup of the badge?

You are correct.  Allow me to set things right.

[www.autoweek.com image 850x510]


/channels his inner Borat...

NICE~!
 
2013-08-20 04:06:43 PM  

JK47: The NHTSA scores and results are available online. It's not hard to check them against the results of other automobiles and having briefly done so nothing really jumped out as being patently false. Hell, the fact that the Model S broke the machine used to administer the roof crush would lend credence to their claims of superior safety.

Of course, I just exerted far more effort in looking into this issue than you yourself did when you started throwing around baseless accusations of collusion and bias. All you have presented thus far is a personal assumption without factual basis which only serves to demonstrate your own personal bias.


Have they developed new safety tests for electronic cars, for hazards unique only to electronic cars, such batteries that explode or catch on fire, which is what grounded the Boeing 787?
 
2013-08-20 04:10:43 PM  

Tricky Chicken: The maths don't work out.  Unless those solar panels are huge.  I think Mr Burns tried something similar.


On a car, you can't put much more than a square meter of solar panels.

On a carport, which essentially what is over the super chargers, you can put many tens of square meters.
 
2013-08-20 04:11:39 PM  

Geotpf: Hollie Maea: If you do the math, that's over 600,000 miles.  There are like maybe 2 volvos in the world that have lasted that long.

I dunno.  Volvo is currently running ads featuring the guy who bought a Volvo in 1966 and has put three million miles on it since then.


There's one.

My assumption is that there is one more.  Maybe there isn't.
 
2013-08-20 04:16:32 PM  

SlothB77: Have they developed new safety tests for electronic cars, for hazards unique only to electronic cars, such batteries that explode or catch on fire, which is what grounded the Boeing 787?


Yes, but they aren't new.  Boeing used a dangerous chemistry and a faulty BMS.  That's what happens when you consider a subsystem to be an afterthought and go for the cheapest possible solution.
 
2013-08-20 04:17:01 PM  
img.fark.net

Hybrid
images.huffingtonpost.com
 
2013-08-20 04:21:23 PM  

Yes please: Don't they literally explode if water gets into the battery casing?


No. Check first-responder guides; the recommended way to put out a Li-Ion battery on fire is hosing it down with water. (The key being to dissipate heat to stop thermal runaway). I assume, if they exploded on contact with water, this would not be the recommended method.
 
2013-08-20 04:21:31 PM  

JerseyTim: Doc Daneeka: drewogatory: JerseyTim: It's hard to be unsafe when you can't go anywhere because your battery is out, amirite?!?!

I see multiple Teslas every day now on my commute, so someone is driving them.

I've only seen one out in the wild so far, and I live in the fairly liberal NYC metro area.

Only seen a couple of Volts for that matter.

There are, however, a shiatload of Priuses.

Now that I think about it, I haven't seen one in the wild. My commute through the Lincoln Tunnel usually involves a shiatton luxury automobiles, multiple Porsches and the occasional Maserati and Ferrari.  I have seen a bunch of Volts lately.

/wants the Model X


I see a ton of them in Houston, which is saying something considering our reputation
 
2013-08-20 04:22:31 PM  

Hollie Maea: Tricky Chicken: The maths don't work out.  Unless those solar panels are huge.  I think Mr Burns tried something similar.

On a car, you can't put much more than a square meter of solar panels.

On a carport, which essentially what is over the super chargers, you can put many tens of square meters.


I should point out that even with the large area, the solar panels will not produce enough energy for ALL of the charging.
On their supercharger page they have a picture of one of their stations.  It has 100 standard sized panels on it.  Those panels are probably 265 watts each, or close to it.  With 5 hours of peak sun, that would produce about 130kwh per day.  Not a huge amount of energy but enough for about two charges to 80 percent.

They give away the supercharging because electricity is cheap.
 
2013-08-20 04:25:29 PM  

Tricky Chicken: Holy Crap!  The Tesla website says they have "FREE" charging stations and they are putting them up all around the country.  How the heck can this work? Even if it costs more at first, if you never have to pay to fuel (charge) it, wouldn't this be the lowest cost option over time?


Even if you have to pay for the juice, it's still cheaper.

Your electric rates may vary, but here in Raleigh we have 10.2 cents/kWh in summer without time-of-use billing (I hear the national average is 11ish cents). At these rates my Leaf gets about 30 miles to the dollar. With time-of-use billing and charging at night, it'd be even cheaper.

/after $30K for the car and $2K for an installed station, admittedly
 
2013-08-20 04:28:58 PM  

Explodo: I prefer to buy things that I can plan to keep indefinitely without having to pay for them again.


That's why leasing is popular for EVs these days; by the time the battery wears out it's somebody else's problem.
 
2013-08-20 04:41:30 PM  

Tricky Chicken: Holy Crap!  The Tesla website says they have "FREE" charging stations and they are putting them up all around the country.  How the heck can this work? Even if it costs more at first, if you never have to pay to fuel (charge) it, wouldn't this be the lowest cost option over time?


The charging stations strategically located on highways to allow longer distance road trips, so you're not confined to journeys less than ~100 miles from your home. Most of them are unlikely to be convenient to stop by for free electricity on the way to work.

As far as funding the electricity, I assumed they are partnering with gas stations that have some sort of dining facilities and who would be more than happy to have folks with a lot of disposable income stop off for half an hour or so in exchange for five bucks of electricity.
 
2013-08-20 05:01:31 PM  

Target Builder: As far as funding the electricity, I assumed they are partnering with gas stations that have some sort of dining facilities and who would be more than happy to have folks with a lot of disposable income stop off for half an hour or so in exchange for five bucks of electricity.


That is a good point.  I always figured Tesla paid the locations to install charging stations.  Your point explains why the closest charger to me is in the lower deck of Garden State Plaza.  It's one of the area's largest malls, and I'm sure they love the idea of rich people being forced to spend a couple hours wandering the store in exchange for $10 worth of electricity.
 
2013-08-20 05:17:34 PM  

Gaseous Anomaly: That's why leasing is popular for EVs these days; by the time the battery wears out it's somebody else's problem.


The batteries don't wear out any time soon.  Leaf batteries should be good for 200K miles plus.

Leases on leafs are popular because they have attractive terms.  I'm sure there are a few people who imagine that the battery issue is important, but most people who are interested in getting a leaf have done enough research to get past the obsolete FUD.
 
2013-08-20 05:21:24 PM  

Driedsponge: and I'm sure they love the idea of rich people being forced to spend a couple hours wandering the store in exchange for $10 worth of electricity.


Model S charges in less than an hour.  But yeah, buy some food and what not.
 
2013-08-20 05:23:53 PM  

SlothB77: The media doesn't reprint company press releases as news articles


That's the funniest thing I've read all day.
 
2013-08-20 05:30:45 PM  

Hollie Maea: Gaseous Anomaly: That's why leasing is popular for EVs these days; by the time the battery wears out it's somebody else's problem.

The batteries don't wear out any time soon.  Leaf batteries should be good for 200K miles plus.

Leases on leafs are popular because they have attractive terms.  I'm sure there are a few people who imagine that the battery issue is important, but most people who are interested in getting a leaf have done enough research to get past the obsolete FUD.


I'm close to leasing an EV or plug-in hybrid, and I'm leaning heavily toward the Leaf at the moment.  The reason for leasing over buying on my part is not FUD on if the batteries will die.  Mine is more an issue of range and what is next.  The technology is changing so rapidly with EVs that I don't want to get one that will seem obsolete a few years down the road.  If fully expect it to work pretty much as designed after 3 years, but what will advances will be made in that time.  With ICE cars, they are not really all that different.  You may get a better SatNav or more features, but they are pretty much at the peak as far as base tech goes.  EVs are really just stating to get going.
 
2013-08-20 05:42:23 PM  

wingnut396: Hollie Maea: Gaseous Anomaly: That's why leasing is popular for EVs these days; by the time the battery wears out it's somebody else's problem.

The batteries don't wear out any time soon.  Leaf batteries should be good for 200K miles plus.

Leases on leafs are popular because they have attractive terms.  I'm sure there are a few people who imagine that the battery issue is important, but most people who are interested in getting a leaf have done enough research to get past the obsolete FUD.

I'm close to leasing an EV or plug-in hybrid, and I'm leaning heavily toward the Leaf at the moment.  The reason for leasing over buying on my part is not FUD on if the batteries will die.  Mine is more an issue of range and what is next.  The technology is changing so rapidly with EVs that I don't want to get one that will seem obsolete a few years down the road.  If fully expect it to work pretty much as designed after 3 years, but what will advances will be made in that time.  With ICE cars, they are not really all that different.  You may get a better SatNav or more features, but they are pretty much at the peak as far as base tech goes.  EVs are really just stating to get going.


See, that's reasonable. It definitely is a rapidly evolving field, and early adopters never get the best deal.  I bought my EV because it was was in a firesale and was a ridiculously good deal.  Thus said, I will likely wait until the Tesla gen 3 to get another one.  By then I think it will start being a pretty damn good deal.

Thus said, with the current leasing deals they have it's hard to go wrong leasing a leaf.  And if they come out with something way better in a couple of years you aren't stuck with it.

As far as range goes, you do have to take it into account, but you'll find it much less of an issue than you imagine, as long as you plug it in every night.
 
2013-08-20 05:57:11 PM  

Driedsponge: Target Builder: As far as funding the electricity, I assumed they are partnering with gas stations that have some sort of dining facilities and who would be more than happy to have folks with a lot of disposable income stop off for half an hour or so in exchange for five bucks of electricity.

That is a good point.  I always figured Tesla paid the locations to install charging stations.  Your point explains why the closest charger to me is in the lower deck of Garden State Plaza.  It's one of the area's largest malls, and I'm sure they love the idea of rich people being forced to spend a couple hours wandering the store in exchange for $10 worth of electricity.


SolarCity is another, less successful Musk startup. so he passes money from the hype machine to the other one.
 
2013-08-20 06:08:16 PM  

legion_of_doo: Driedsponge: Target Builder: As far as funding the electricity, I assumed they are partnering with gas stations that have some sort of dining facilities and who would be more than happy to have folks with a lot of disposable income stop off for half an hour or so in exchange for five bucks of electricity.

That is a good point.  I always figured Tesla paid the locations to install charging stations.  Your point explains why the closest charger to me is in the lower deck of Garden State Plaza.  It's one of the area's largest malls, and I'm sure they love the idea of rich people being forced to spend a couple hours wandering the store in exchange for $10 worth of electricity.

SolarCity is another, less successful Musk startup. so he passes money from the hype machine to the other one.


Actually, SolarCity is a creation of Musk's cousin, with Elon sitting on the board as Chairman. Last I checked, they were the largest installer of solar panels in the United States - with a new goal of a million residential lease customers in ~4 years. It's not exactly a hype machine when you're #1.

 
Looks like they made a fairly large corporate acquisition earlier this week too.
 
2013-08-20 06:08:26 PM  

legion_of_doo: SolarCity is another, less successful Musk startup. so he passes money from the hype machine to the other one.


Were you born stupid, or did you hit your head on a rock as a child?
 
2013-08-20 06:22:27 PM  

Tricky Chicken: Holy Crap!  The Tesla website says they have "FREE" charging stations and they are putting them up all around the country.  How the heck can this work? Even if it costs more at first, if you never have to pay to fuel (charge) it, wouldn't this be the lowest cost option over time?


At some stations, the charging stations have a solar canopy which offsets energy use (not sure exactly how much of it). These stations will charge around 150 miles of range in 20 minutes. Not quite gas pumping speed but not too long. Additionally, at some stations they apparently plan to offer a battery swap system- This gives you a fully charged battery in half the time it takes to pump gas into a gas powered car. The solar energy and the cost of the battery swap will offset the free use of the charging stations.

They are going out of their way to make it possible to take these cars on road trips. Even without the charging stations, you can (slowly) charge the car at pretty much any electrical outlet.
 
2013-08-20 06:25:55 PM  
... Additionally:

I think as Tesla expands its infrastructure (aside from the fact that you can charge these vehicles anywhere you can get close enough to an electrical outlet) the probability significantly goes up of them producing a more economical vehicle model. The more infrastructure there is, the easier it will be for them to sell the car on somebody (knowing they can take the car anywhere). The easier it is for them to sell the car, the faster this technology will improve in quality and cost and trickle down to the masses.
 
2013-08-20 06:29:42 PM  

Explodo: I know I'm in the minority on this opinion, but I hate all those electric screens in cars


I agree.

As far as the rest of your posts go, well, it sounds like there aren't many new cars these days that are what you want. The days of ordinary guys being able to work on a car are coming to an end.
 
2013-08-20 06:38:13 PM  

Krieghund: As far as the rest of your posts go, well, it sounds like there aren't many new cars these days that are what you want. The days of ordinary guys being able to work on a car are coming to an end.


Pretty much.  Ironically, one of your better options is an electric car conversion.  There is a really great online community, the systems are much simpler to work on, and you can pretty much customize the car to however you want as long as you have a bit of money to play with.

I'm working on an Opel GT conversion myself (on hold due to job uncertainties, but there's no hurry...it's fun to play with).
 
2013-08-20 06:49:26 PM  

Massively Multiplayer Addict: ... Additionally:

I think as Tesla expands its infrastructure (aside from the fact that you can charge these vehicles anywhere you can get close enough to an electrical outlet) the probability significantly goes up of them producing a more economical vehicle model. The more infrastructure there is, the easier it will be for them to sell the car on somebody (knowing they can take the car anywhere). The easier it is for them to sell the car, the faster this technology will improve in quality and cost and trickle down to the masses.


Also - if they corner the market on the infrastructure and have their charging system patented they will be in a very good position if competitors enter their part of the market.
 
2013-08-20 06:51:06 PM  

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: Also - if they corner the market on the infrastructure and have their charging system patented they will be in a very good position if competitors enter their part of the market.


Especially since everyone else is gearing up for a good ol' standards war.
 
2013-08-20 06:58:05 PM  

Krieghund: I agree.

As far as the rest of your posts go, well, it sounds like there aren't many new cars these days that are what you want. The days of ordinary guys being able to work on a car are coming to an end.


I disagree. It's just that the skillsets are changing. Instead of rebuilding a carburator or regapping points, an electric car mechanic/tinkerer will be reflashing the ECU and measuring cell voltage from the battery pack.

The major limits electric cars are the longevity of the chemistry of the battery w/ rapid charges/discharges, amperage capability of the control systems, and proper cooling of the electric motor. The hot-rodders of the future will have background in electronics, a laptop and a multimeter as their main tools. Plus when you work on an electric car, it's almost an entirely grease and oil-free job, which is nice.

Here's a rad homebuilt electric datsun that does the quarter mile in 10.5 seconds.
201 mph in 7 seconds (motorcycle)
Electric world speed record, June 2013 (car)

/ASE certified automotive electrician
//restores classic cars and motorcycles
///drives an electric car as my daily ride
 
2013-08-20 07:33:04 PM  

MrSteve007: Krieghund: I agree.

As far as the rest of your posts go, well, it sounds like there aren't many new cars these days that are what you want. The days of ordinary guys being able to work on a car are coming to an end.

I disagree. It's just that the skillsets are changing. Instead of rebuilding a carburator or regapping points, an electric car mechanic/tinkerer will be reflashing the ECU and measuring cell voltage from the battery pack.

The major limits electric cars are the longevity of the chemistry of the battery w/ rapid charges/discharges, amperage capability of the control systems, and proper cooling of the electric motor. The hot-rodders of the future will have background in electronics, a laptop and a multimeter as their main tools. Plus when you work on an electric car, it's almost an entirely grease and oil-free job, which is nice.

Here's a rad homebuilt electric datsun that does the quarter mile in 10.5 seconds.
201 mph in 7 seconds (motorcycle)
Electric world speed record, June 2013 (car)

/ASE certified automotive electrician
//restores classic cars and motorcycles
///drives an electric car as my daily ride


Christ, I hope you're not using SLA's then (or AGM). What type of batteries are in your car/truck? What controller are you using. Zilla or Alltrax or Curtis or? Fill us in on the type of motor (AC, DC and what voltage)

Not trolling. I built my own electric motorcycle and I'm a lightning head myself.
 
2013-08-20 07:41:45 PM  

Massively Multiplayer Addict: ... Additionally:

I think as Tesla expands its infrastructure (aside from the fact that you can charge these vehicles anywhere you can get close enough to an electrical outlet) the probability significantly goes up of them producing a more economical vehicle model. The more infrastructure there is, the easier it will be for them to sell the car on somebody (knowing they can take the car anywhere). The easier it is for them to sell the car, the faster this technology will improve in quality and cost and trickle down to the masses.


This is not a repeat from 1919.
 
2013-08-20 07:54:36 PM  

wingnut396: Hollie Maea: Gaseous Anomaly: That's why leasing is popular for EVs these days; by the time the battery wears out it's somebody else's problem.

The batteries don't wear out any time soon.  Leaf batteries should be good for 200K miles plus.

Leases on leafs are popular because they have attractive terms.  I'm sure there are a few people who imagine that the battery issue is important, but most people who are interested in getting a leaf have done enough research to get past the obsolete FUD.

I'm close to leasing an EV or plug-in hybrid, and I'm leaning heavily toward the Leaf at the moment.  The reason for leasing over buying on my part is not FUD on if the batteries will die.  Mine is more an issue of range and what is next.  The technology is changing so rapidly with EVs that I don't want to get one that will seem obsolete a few years down the road.  If fully expect it to work pretty much as designed after 3 years, but what will advances will be made in that time.  With ICE cars, they are not really all that different.  You may get a better SatNav or more features, but they are pretty much at the peak as far as base tech goes.  EVs are really just stating to get going.


This is exactly why I ended up leasing my Leaf. The research (and personal experience) shows that battery degradation on these simply isn't a n issue, but I fully expect the 2015 Leaf to have more range and less charging time than the 2013 I have, which is exactly what happened when moving from the 2011 to the 2013.
 
2013-08-20 08:02:37 PM  

indarwinsshadow: Christ, I hope you're not using SLA's then (or AGM). What type of batteries are in your car/truck? What controller are you using. Zilla or Alltrax or Curtis or? Fill us in on the type of motor (AC, DC and what voltage)

Not trolling. I built my own electric motorcycle and I'm a lightning head myself.


Notice I didn't say anything about working or building an electric car myself - simply owning one (a Nissan Leaf) & rebuilding old cars (I have a pair of '48 Willys, '52 Dodge truck, '64 BSA Victor, '65 Mustang fastback, & '69 Triumph T100C). Although once I finish the '48 restoration, my parts mule '48 Willy truck would be fun with an electric motor.

I haven't given too much thought on the project, but I think it would be fun to have something in the 40 hp range (like the electric boat Elco EP-4000 motor), inplace of the 4cyl "go-devil" L-134, using the stock drivetrain. 9, 12v batteries would do the job. Unfortunately that motor costs an arm and a leg.

If I were going to build one, I'd use the A123 batteries . . . which would have been a lot easier before they went out of business. If I remember correctly, they're the ones most of the homebuilt drag cars & bikes used.
 
2013-08-20 08:51:52 PM  

MrSteve007: If I were going to build one, I'd use the A123 batteries . . . which would have been a lot easier before they went out of business. If I remember correctly, they're the ones most of the homebuilt drag cars & bikes used.


The latest series of CALBs are pretty good.  They actually have nearly as much power density as the A123s (they can burst 10C) and seem to have very good quality control.  They are Chinese, but nearly all of them are now that you can't get A123s.  They are probably your best bet for most conversions...a 25kwh pack like the leaf has could burst over 200kw when you take into account voltage sag.
If you just want to make a drag racer, though, your best bet is to go with Lithium Polymer...the Dow Kokam's that the White Zombie uses can do around 30C.  Just have to treat them very carefully as they CAN catch on fire.
 
2013-08-20 09:17:39 PM  

Inquisitive Inquisitor: My boss drives one and I see several on my commute to work.  On any given day I'll see three or four.  I also live right between the Tesla dealership and the Tesla service center.  Draw what conclusions you wish.


Yeah, it's an amazing PR coup that the Oil Industry has conditioned the right to regard any challenge to is as an assault on liberty.
 
2013-08-21 12:36:03 AM  

Hollie Maea: legion_of_doo: SolarCity is another, less successful Musk startup. so he passes money from the hype machine to the other one.

Were you born stupid, or did you hit your head on a rock as a child?


Elon still won't sleep with you.
 
2013-08-21 12:36:33 AM  

wingnut396: Hollie Maea: Gaseous Anomaly: That's why leasing is popular for EVs these days; by the time the battery wears out it's somebody else's problem.

The batteries don't wear out any time soon.  Leaf batteries should be good for 200K miles plus.

Leases on leafs are popular because they have attractive terms.  I'm sure there are a few people who imagine that the battery issue is important, but most people who are interested in getting a leaf have done enough research to get past the obsolete FUD.

I'm close to leasing an EV or plug-in hybrid, and I'm leaning heavily toward the Leaf at the moment.  The reason for leasing over buying on my part is not FUD on if the batteries will die.  Mine is more an issue of range and what is next.  The technology is changing so rapidly with EVs that I don't want to get one that will seem obsolete a few years down the road.  If fully expect it to work pretty much as designed after 3 years, but what will advances will be made in that time.  With ICE cars, they are not really all that different.  You may get a better SatNav or more features, but they are pretty much at the peak as far as base tech goes.  EVs are really just stating to get going.

 
2013-08-21 12:46:15 AM  
Sorry, I'm having trouble commenting ATM.

I initially leased a Nissan Leaf. I loved that car. Nissan made a great EV. After a few weeks, the dealership reclaimed the car because the bank wouldn't honor the lease agreement because the car was a demo (apparently the dealership had already realized the tax credits or some such. I dunno, it never made sense to me.). Anyway I was pretty crushed. They promised to get me a new car, but they were pretty scarce at the time here in ABQ. After a few weeks I lost confidence in the dealer and strolled onto a Ford lot and leased a Ford Focus Electric.

I. Love. This. Car.

My buddy leased a Leaf shortly after, but I'm so happy I ended up with the Focus Electric. It's seriously a nice car. I had no idea that Ford made an all electric. They don't advertise very well IMO.

Anyway, I have a 240V 30A GE EVSE in my garage for charging at home. I use the portable level 1 EVSE that comes with the car to charge off a standard 110V outlet at work. My car is fully charged before the end of the work day from the 110V outlet.

My company is working on installing Level 2 EVSEs at work for me and my buddy and to encourage others to go electric.

We even joined the Workplace Charging Vhallenge
 
2013-08-21 12:49:54 AM  
Just FYI: the things you plug the car into aren't chargers. The charger is built into the car. The plug is an Electric Vehicle Service Equipment. They're basically glorified extension cords with built in disconnects.

Some are more advanced, with data logging capabilities, but they're not chargers.

Clipper Creek makes some great EVSEs. I wish I'd bought mine from them instead of GE, but Lowes was having a sale....
 
2013-08-21 02:32:25 AM  

Geotpf: It's apparently a very nice car (compared with other, gas powered, luxury automobiles).  Consumer Reports gave it a road test score of 99 out of 100, for instance.  Of course, you still can't really go on a road trip with it (although they sure are trying to set up charging stations everywhere), but, frankly, 99% of the time you are just going to be driving around town, and it's fine for that.


Which is also unprecedented.
 
2013-08-21 02:44:33 AM  

Explodo: I prefer to buy things that I can plan to keep indefinitely without having to pay for them again.


How's that 386 running Windows 3.1 working out for you?

But in all seriousness, the more success Telsa has, the cheaper batteries will become. Replacing the whole pack may cost $30k today, but in 7 years it could be $10k or $5k. And let's face it, people who can afford this car are likely to not care as much about resale value, as they'll probably replace it far before the batteries start running low.

Let the rich be Tesla's guinea pigs. The tech will improve, and by the time Tesla is making a competitor to the Nissan Leaf, we could have swappable batteries and battery stations. (That seems to me a more practical idea than trying to make longer-lasting, better-range batteries.)
 
2013-08-21 05:30:52 AM  

SkittlesAreYum: Explodo: Unless you're leasing it, or Tesla is going to replace the battery pack for free, it's a car with near 0 resale value due to the fact that once that battery stops putting out as much power it'll cost a fortune to replace the battery pack...at least that's how they've all been so far.

Via the Tesla forum, replacement battery packs cost $30,000, which is nearly half the price of the car.  They also say the batteries are designed to last 10 years.  Well, I'll check in on that in 10 years and see how everyone is doing.  I've never had rechargeable batteries that didn't lose a significant amount of output in considerably less time.  Suddenly your 240 mile range is a 40 mile range and you can plunk down thirty grand to fix it or just buy another one.  Pfft.  I have, however, never dealt with such high-end batteries.  As I said, we'll see.

I prefer to buy things that I can plan to keep indefinitely without having to pay for them again.

When I think of things that keep their resale value, don't require constant maintenance, and run essentially forever, I think of automobiles.


Like 80s-90s model Corollas. We had one until a few years ago when a construction truck cut a tight corner and ran over it (everyone was unhurt except the car)
 
2013-08-21 07:21:06 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: Explodo: I prefer to buy things that I can plan to keep indefinitely without having to pay for them again.

How's that 386 running Windows 3.1 working out for you?

But in all seriousness, the more success Telsa has, the cheaper batteries will become. Replacing the whole pack may cost $30k today, but in 7 years it could be $10k or $5k. And let's face it, people who can afford this car are likely to not care as much about resale value, as they'll probably replace it far before the batteries start running low.

Let the rich be Tesla's guinea pigs. The tech will improve, and by the time Tesla is making a competitor to the Nissan Leaf, we could have swappable batteries and battery stations. (That seems to me a more practical idea than trying to make longer-lasting, better-range batteries.)


Apparently.. a battery swap only costs about $80 and can be done in around 2 minutes... Wow.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/06/tesla-battery-swap/
 
2013-08-21 07:45:04 AM  

SlothB77:

The media treats Tesla just like it treats Obama.  No skepticism.  No criticism.  Just blind support.  Tesla says they got the highest score ever.  What media used to do was investigate that claim, verify it was true.  Now, they just blindly parrot the company's line.

They have an agenda - global warming, electronic-powered cars, green energy.  They are just using Tesla to advance that agenda.  If Tesla and Musk were anti-gay marriage christian conservatives, the media would be complaining 'oh, the cars are too expensive.  They are just one more advantage the super rich has over everyone.  They are only selling a small, insignificant number.  They don't employ that many people because they use robots instead - it could be bad for jobs and unemployment if they get big.'  and any other criticisms they can find.  It is all very petty and transparent.




WTF is this herpaderp this guy keeps spewing? The media was at Tesla's throat for years, it wasn't until Tesla kept delivering on their promises time and time again that the media finally turned around this year and jumped on board. Its hard NOT to respect what they're accomplishing... Get over it.
 
2013-08-21 11:25:07 AM  
These kinds of threads are my favorite. I like hearing about people's experiments and experiences with electric cars. Thanks!
 
2013-08-21 12:37:34 PM  

lewismarktwo: 100 Watt Walrus: Explodo: I prefer to buy things that I can plan to keep indefinitely without having to pay for them again.

How's that 386 running Windows 3.1 working out for you?

But in all seriousness, the more success Telsa has, the cheaper batteries will become. Replacing the whole pack may cost $30k today, but in 7 years it could be $10k or $5k. And let's face it, people who can afford this car are likely to not care as much about resale value, as they'll probably replace it far before the batteries start running low.

Let the rich be Tesla's guinea pigs. The tech will improve, and by the time Tesla is making a competitor to the Nissan Leaf, we could have swappable batteries and battery stations. (That seems to me a more practical idea than trying to make longer-lasting, better-range batteries.)

Apparently.. a battery swap only costs about $80 and can be done in around 2 minutes... Wow.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/06/tesla-battery-swap/


And there you have it. Just bring the price down to roughly the price of a tank of gas, and we're off and running.
 
2013-08-21 01:21:13 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: Geotpf: It's apparently a very nice car (compared with other, gas powered, luxury automobiles).  Consumer Reports gave it a road test score of 99 out of 100, for instance.  Of course, you still can't really go on a road trip with it (although they sure are trying to set up charging stations everywhere), but, frankly, 99% of the time you are just going to be driving around town, and it's fine for that.

Which is also unprecedented.


Not quite.  In the entire history of Consumer Reports, the Model S is the second car to ever get such a high score.  I think the first car to get that score was some older Lexus.

Still, it's pretty amazing.
 
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