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(Opposing Views)   Remember that firefighter-slash-pastor who was introduced to Mr. Stun Gun after waving to his friendly neighborhood cops? Well, authorities investigated the incident and found no wrongdoing by the police involved   (opposingviews.com) divider line 106
    More: Followup, Nick Clegg, attitude change, misconduct, firefighters, traffic stops, Police Chief Billy Bolin  
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9567 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Aug 2013 at 11:21 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-20 08:57:30 PM

Super_pope: "Plenty of factors go into those numbers to include, but not limited to: better training, lower crime rates across the US, better equipment and technology, etc. This leads to an obvious disparity when compared to jobs where equipment or training lag behind or simply don't exist. How much technological changes have been made to truck driving in recent years..."

Not many but I recently saw an amazing development indicating that in dramatically safer cities across the US, not pulling farking guns out all the time leads to fewer deaths.  Also farming has transformed to an amazing degree in the last few decades, I've often heard it said that its the most mechanized occupation in America.

http://www.policemisconduct.net/statistics/2010-annual-report/#_Exce ss ive_Force

"There have been 127 fatalities associated with credible excessive force allegations within 2010, which means approximately 8.1% of reported excessive force cases involved fatalities. Of these excessive force fatalities, 91 were caused by firearms, 19 were caused by physical force, 11 by taser, and 6 by other causes."

http://www.odmp.org/search/year
Just in 2010 there were five times as many fatalities linked to credible excessive force complaints than there were officers killed in the line of duty (guys who were actually deliberately killed, not dead in an accident from say... blowing through red lights without their sirens because they don't give a shiat about laws that aren't convenient).

What's really interesting is when you get to the end and note the the per-capita rate for murder is 10% higher than the general population for police, and the sex crimes rate is more than DOUBLE that of the regular population.

A policing program that emphasizes solving conflict through hyper-aggressive shock-and-awe tactics rather than deescalation has done a bang-up job for us!


I'm still amused at your narrowing-down of statistics to make things look terrible while still ignoring the fact that every single thing you cited is in the percentages of percentages of percentages of total police interactions.

Praytell, what's an "acceptable" level of police faults if it's not .0000001%? Note: zero is not an acceptable answer unless you've invented a line of robot police who make no mistakes. I await your hyperbole-free answer with bated breath.
 
2013-08-20 11:32:59 PM
Perpetuous Procrastination
Praytell, what's an "acceptable" level of police faults if it's not .0000001%? Note: zero is not an acceptable answer unless you've invented a line of robot police who make no mistakes. I await your hyperbole-free answer with bated breath.


There is this book called 'Save the cat' that just about every hollywood hit movie follows. You need to write dialog for spec scripts. I could hear Gary Oldman saying that.
 
2013-08-21 08:18:17 AM

Perpetuous Procrastination: CheapEngineer:So, when both sides have thecapability to be suspect, you will always side with the police. Your police department is regularly reliable enough that if there are ever, *any* "he said/she said" questions arise between the Police and *anyone* else, the assumption of truth *always* goes to the Police.

Thanks, Officer.

\I treat every police officer I meet with respect
\\and if he shows his ass to me, I will point it out to him and tell him I expect better
\\\BECAUSE HE'S MY GODDAMN EMPLOYEE, AND THE FORCE HE WIELDS DEMANDS A HIGHER STANDARD OF RESTRAINT

Oh look, another of those folks who make mass generalizations because they're incapable of critical thought or anything beyond black and white reality.

No, I pretty clearly pointed out that both sides can and are culpable in police encounters gone wrong, and that police are not infallible. What I also pointed out was that of the  thousands of police encounters daily, somehow the only ones that get reported are the  bad ones, at which point the window-lickers proceed to shout from the rooftops "SEE! I TOLD YOU THE POPO WERE PIGS!!1!11!"

Ironically, you're saying much the same as I am: you act with respect and even when you feel the need to point out misconduct you maintain that respect lest you fall victim to the same behavior you're detesting. I was pointing out that regardless of what that misconduct is (and short of you being in danger of severe harm or death, it pretty much falls into the 'put your pride on hold and deal with it after the encounter' category) being a tough guy and going all Constitutional Law/I'm better than the police/I can make phone calls during a stop/I can act like a dick because  they're my employee is a great way to end up in jail and becoming part of the problem you think you're trying to resolve.

tl;dr - Police can be dicks, yes. The latter is a very small minority of total police interactions every single day, much the same as every other job in the world. Being Billy Bad ...


Much like Burning the Flag and having an Abortion, "standing up and being all billy badass (defending your rights and holding the cop who is hassling you accountable)" in front of a police officer are things I'm not likely to do *but* I have the right to do, and will defend anyone elses right to do so because they are legal and those freedoms are representative of the attitude in this country.

If you are a patrolman, and *don't* know how to deal with people who are screaming "I KNOW MY RIGHTS DAMMIT" then 1) You've screwed up already by winding the person up when you should be calming them down and 2) you should find another line of work because frankly the job requires superhuman feats of empathy and understanding on a daily basis - and rightly so - because of the power they have over the rest of us. The argument "Cops are human, and they all have bad days" doesn't excuse a damn thing for me because once you put on that badge you had better be able to put on that patient, understanding, public defender of the peace face you were hired to perform.

\my uncle was a detective sgt, in this very town (Evansville) and would not hesitate to use the "N" word
\\and yet I also know he would have slapped the crap out of this cop for treating a citizen this way
\\\even though he was a "N"
 
2013-08-21 08:27:15 AM

Perpetuous Procrastination: Praytell, what's an "acceptable" level of police faults if it's not .0000001%? Note: zero is not an acceptable answer unless you've invented a line of robot police who make no mistakes. I await your hyperbole-free answer with bated breath.


This issue isn't "cops can't make mistakes" but what happens when they do make mistakes. Are they swept under the rug? Are mistakes noted, and addressed? Or just handwaved? Police are specifically trained in conflict resolution - that's one of their major responsibilities. This incident was created by the officer, screwing up a "traffic stop" and getting all "billy badass" on a bicycle rider.

I expect police to be human, and make mistakes, and have the cajones to own up to their mistakes when they happen.
 
2013-08-21 09:10:06 AM

CheapEngineer: This issue isn't "cops can't make mistakes" but what happens when they do make mistakes


It isn't even that so much anymore as the way that they're trained to make fatal mistakes more likely.  Someone doesn't want to do what you say?  Better gain compliance with pepper spray and then pull out your gun while screaming "Get down asshole!"  They handcuffed this guy and put him on the ground, only allowing him to rise to his knees after he told them he was a fireman, because he was talking on his phone after running a stop sign and wouldn't talk with them immediately.

You're out making traffic stops, its not like there's an emergency.  You can wait for him to wave his little penis around by calling your chief and probably getting turned away by the administrative aid, then write him his ticket.

But no, he resisted by not letting you grab his phone out of his hand during his likely futile, meaningless 5 minute display.  Better DRAW A WEAPON ON HIM, HANDCUFF HIM, AND KNOCK HIM TO THE GROUND.  Not drawing a weapon in a situation where its TOTALLY out of place does a really good job of minimizing accidental discharges.

Perpetuous Procrastination: I'm still amused at your narrowing-down of statistics to make things look terrible while still ignoring the fact that every single thing you cited is in the percentages of percentages of percentages of total police interactions.


If you weren't being disingenuous it may just not have occurred to you that I used ratios in most of that.  Cops are x% more prone to violent crime than the average person, cops kill people in verifiable cases of excessive force at a rate of 6:1 versus how often they're actually murdered on the job.  Cops commit sex crimes at more than double the per-capita rate of the general population.  TWICE AS OFTEN AS A REGULAR PERSON is not nothing just because the per capita rate of raping people isn't that high (unless you're a cop).
 
2013-08-21 09:39:39 PM
Why do they waste tax money investigating these incidents when everyone knows what the answer will be?
 
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