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(Arizona Daily Independent)   Talk of retiring the A-10 Warthog spurs effort to save it. Still say it looks like a Puma   (arizonadailyindependent.com) divider line 306
    More: Sad, warthogs, Operation Desert Storm, boots on the ground, iraqi freedom, Raul Grijalva  
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10149 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Aug 2013 at 10:00 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-20 09:46:56 AM  
In other news, the Air Force doesn't like the CAS mission and would just as soon not have it at all.
 
2013-08-20 09:54:43 AM  
Giving them to local police.
 
2013-08-20 10:02:31 AM  

vygramul: In other news, the Air Force doesn't like the CAS mission and would just as soon not have it at all.


I'm sure the Army would be happy to take them off their hands if the USAF doesn't want them anymore.  The Army loves the Warthogs.
 
2013-08-20 10:03:02 AM  
Retiring the bestest plane evar? What will replace it?
 
2013-08-20 10:03:02 AM  
This is ridiculous.

The Pentagon needs to figure out whatever stupid rule prevents the Army from possessing these and revoke it. It's a proven, reliable, and deadly CAS airframe, with plenty of life left to it.
 
2013-08-20 10:04:30 AM  

antidisestablishmentarianism: Retiring the bestest plane evar? What will replace it?


Lockheed Martin has assured me that the F-35 will be able to handle all responsibilities of the A-10, and will do it with an invisibility cloak and loiter time of 20+ hours.
 
2013-08-20 10:04:34 AM  
Chupathingy.
 
2013-08-20 10:05:02 AM  

slayer199: vygramul: In other news, the Air Force doesn't like the CAS mission and would just as soon not have it at all.

I'm sure the Army would be happy to take them off their hands if the USAF doesn't want them anymore.  The Army loves the Warthogs.


Seriously. Bring back the Army Air Corps and let them design and fly their own CAS planes.
 
2013-08-20 10:05:04 AM  
Retiring anything in favor of the F-35 is a pretty stupid idea.
 
2013-08-20 10:05:19 AM  

T-Servo: antidisestablishmentarianism: Retiring the bestest plane evar? What will replace it?

Lockheed Martin has assured me that the F-35 will be able to handle all responsibilities of the A-10, and will do it with an invisibility cloak and loiter time of 20+ hours.


With rainbows shooting out its ass, no doubt.
 
2013-08-20 10:06:10 AM  

T-Servo: antidisestablishmentarianism: Retiring the bestest plane evar? What will replace it?

Lockheed Martin has assured me that the F-35 will be able to handle all responsibilities of the A-10, and will do it with an invisibility cloak and loiter time of 20+ hours.


Heh.


Also: farked link?
 
2013-08-20 10:06:38 AM  
I remember driving between Phoenix and Tucson one sunny day, in my bright red Pontiac. Off in the distance, two specs flying and getting closer and closer. A couple of seconds later, two A-10s screamed nearly overhead.

Nothing like being target practice.

/cool plane
//I'm a confirmed kill
 
2013-08-20 10:07:58 AM  

vygramul: In other news, the Air Force doesn't like the CAS mission and would just as soon not have it at all.


...until the Army talks about having its own fixed-wing assets under direct control (again). Then, magically, CAS and Warthogs are an important component of Air Force forward projection.

>Flake responded that the A-10 would be retired but held out the promise of the F-35 as a viable substitute.

All those who believe that take one step forward.

>"Tell the Obama administration to reconsider the retirement of the A-10 attack aircraft. There is no available replacement currently in the Department of Defense. Lives will be lost overseas without this aircraft."

Why the hell would you direct a petition at the Obama Administration when it's the Senate and the DoD procurement that are making these determinations?
 
2013-08-20 10:08:41 AM  
Tried this before right before the Gulf War, saying the F-16 could handle the A-10s' duties. After the Gulf War, suddenly the USAF loved the A-10 again.
 
2013-08-20 10:08:43 AM  
It's a flying tank. that flies. HOW CAN YOU RETIRE THAT??
 
2013-08-20 10:09:15 AM  

pag1107: Retiring anything in favor of the F-35 is a pretty stupid idea.


This, and the other guy's comment above.

That thing is nothing but a money pit. Worse than the F-22, another wasted opportunity (that I wanted to succeed) that can't go for any measurable length of time without being grounded.
 
2013-08-20 10:10:25 AM  

vygramul: In other news, the Air Force doesn't like the CAS mission and would just as soon not have it at all.


That's really dangerous stuff. You could put your life at risk doing that.

If I was going to do it, I'd want to do it in a Warthog.

Hack Patooey: T-Servo: antidisestablishmentarianism: Retiring the bestest plane evar? What will replace it?

Lockheed Martin has assured me that the F-35 will be able to handle all responsibilities of the A-10, and will do it with an invisibility cloak and loiter time of 20+ hours.

With rainbows shooting out its ass, no doubt.


Don't forget Unicorn Fart Micro-Thermobarics.

Unless that thing has Star Wars repulsors or some other physics defying lift surfaces, it'll be lucky to be as good at CAS as the F-104.
 
2013-08-20 10:10:41 AM  
I remember hanging out on the Commons in Halifax and watching a pair loiter overhead and realizing that the people crowding the Commons were probably playing the role of ground-targets. My 'friends', not knowing the A-10, wondered why I kept glancing up at them.
 
2013-08-20 10:12:20 AM  

antidisestablishmentarianism: Retiring the bestest plane evar? What will replace it?


Nothing. Nothing can. The F35 is lightly armored, has low weapons load and is designed for combat at stand off ranges, and it's gun has a pidddling 1200 rounds.

During desert storm A-10's expended all their ordinance during missions. That's like 6 laser guided bombs, 4 2000 pound dumb bombs, and 3 maverick missiles. (in addition to being able to carry rockets, and cluster bombs).  And like 20,000 rounds of GAU-8 ammo. oh, and titanium armor for the pilot and critical systems.

The A-10 also has triple redundant flight system. dual hydraulic  systems, and cable controls.

The warthog brings home pilots in situations where there is really no logical reason why it would be capable of flying. A female A-10 pilot got hit over Iraq, lost almost all flight control and then proceeded to write the book on flying a wounded A-10 on differential thrust alone. She landed back at base safely.
 
2013-08-20 10:12:51 AM  
A waste, seeing as how it wasn't long ago the planes were upgraded to have a service life that was to last till 2028.


clkeagle: The Pentagon needs to figure out whatever stupid rule prevents the Army from possessing these and revoke it.


They didn't want it. Even the USAF was hesitant to take it at first, because both branches believed high speed and a slick-looking aircraft would be the most effective. Even still, there isn't a rule that says "only  one branch can have an aircraft of a certain design", so there is nothing to "revoke".


Also, subby, nice RvB reference.(skip to 1:30)
 
2013-08-20 10:13:27 AM  
Wonder Warthog to the rescue!
 
2013-08-20 10:14:42 AM  
I remember going through this back in '89 when they hadn't been "blooded" yet ... they were about gone.
(saves asses)  Oh, wait-they're totally great!
 
2013-08-20 10:14:45 AM  
They probably don't cost enough to maintain, the profit margin on them isn't high enough.
 
2013-08-20 10:15:32 AM  

slayer199: vygramul: In other news, the Air Force doesn't like the CAS mission and would just as soon not have it at all.

I'm sure the Army would be happy to take them off their hands if the USAF doesn't want them anymore.  The Army loves the Warthogs.


Yes - the Key West agreement should be scrapped and the services bid on missions rather than aircraft type.
 
2013-08-20 10:16:28 AM  

fluffy2097: The warthog brings home pilots in situations where there is really no logical reason why it would be capable of flying.


Unrelated, here's an F-15 that has no business flying.
 
2013-08-20 10:16:38 AM  

belhade: It's a flying tank. that flies. HOW CAN YOU RETIRE THAT??


It's a gun with wings. and an engine.

The same man who looked at the GAU-8 and said "Make this gun fly", is the same guy who was carrying a howitzer in a C-130 and said to himself "Let's shoot at targets on the ground with this howitzer, by aiming it out the farking window!"
 
2013-08-20 10:17:48 AM  

xxmedium: All those who believe that take one step forward.


The F-35 is a fine aircraft but it's not an A-10.
 
2013-08-20 10:18:05 AM  
I once took part in an Army training exercise, I was a "wounded soldier", complete with cinema-makeup broken arm, and got to hang out on the ground waiting for the Rangers to come rescue me.  A10s circled overhead providing coverage.

What impressed me most was the machine guns.  The rounds fire off so fast they don't go bang-bang-bang, they go VVVVVVVVRRRBBBBT.
 
2013-08-20 10:19:04 AM  
I'm not an Army guy, but isn't that what helicopters are supposed to be doing now?  Or is the role not quite the same?
 
2013-08-20 10:19:13 AM  

Hack Patooey: T-Servo: antidisestablishmentarianism: Retiring the bestest plane evar? What will replace it?

Lockheed Martin has assured me that the F-35 will be able to handle all responsibilities of the A-10, and will do it with an invisibility cloak and loiter time of 20+ hours.

With rainbows shooting out its ass, no doubt.


Its fueled by liquid schwartz.
 
2013-08-20 10:19:30 AM  
The problem with the A-10 is it's kinda like using a sledge hammer to smash things.

The F-35 is better suited because it's like using some kind of complex advanced technolicical thingy that doesn't work because it'd too valuable to use to smash things.
 
2013-08-20 10:19:35 AM  
I was at Road America for a race weekend, probably CART or ALMS and we camped off the track at a gun club.  One morning, probably about 6am, we got buzzed by two A-10s which must have been practicing a fly-over.  They really low and you could just feel the rumble as they approached and went over.

/csb
 
2013-08-20 10:19:36 AM  

error 303: Chupathingy.


So unless anybody has any more mythical creatures to suggest as a name for the new vehicle, we're gonna stick with: the Warthog. How about it, Grif?
 
2013-08-20 10:20:22 AM  
What's a Nato?
 
2013-08-20 10:21:06 AM  
I remember playing an A-10 Flight Simulator as a kid. If you tried to do too much dogfighting, the in-game narration would chide you "You aren't an F-15!"

I'm no military aviation expert, but it just seems intuitive to me that a purpose-built war machine will do better at that purpose than a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none like the F-35. Indeed, many of the F-35's problems, from my limited perspective, seem to stem from the design compromises required for it to be all things to all air missions.
 
2013-08-20 10:21:06 AM  

Earguy: I once took part in an Army training exercise, I was a "wounded soldier", complete with cinema-makeup broken arm, and got to hang out on the ground waiting for the Rangers to come rescue me.  A10s circled overhead providing coverage.

What impressed me most was the machine guns.  The rounds fire off so fast they don't go bang-bang-bang, they go VVVVVVVVRRRBBBBT.


They are also as big as a Volkswagon The ammo can ALONE for it is bigger then a Volkswagen.

upload.wikimedia.org
And the bullets are this big.

lh3.ggpht.com
 
2013-08-20 10:21:11 AM  
I must be missing something here the A-10 is a extremely effective aircraft and has proven it's worth about a thousand times over. The only possible drawback is the main gun is goddamned expensive to operate.  The thing is the only thing an F-35 can use in place of the A-10's main gun are JDAMs and JSOWs which cost a fortune. Each.
 
2013-08-20 10:21:26 AM  

schnee: I remember driving between Phoenix and Tucson one sunny day, in my bright red Pontiac. Off in the distance, two specs flying and getting closer and closer. A couple of seconds later, two A-10s screamed nearly overhead.

Nothing like being target practice.

/cool plane
//I'm a confirmed kill


Where I was growing up, we had giant power transmission lines running though our back fields. Local A-10s would use them for running target practice.
 
2013-08-20 10:21:26 AM  
yikes....

just another example of the power of planned obsolescence :(
 
2013-08-20 10:21:30 AM  

xxmedium: Why the hell would you direct a petition at the Obama Administration when it's the Senate and the DoD procurement that are making these determinations?


Because the Democrats hold the Senate, and the president can lean on the senators of his party.  That doesn't guarantee anything, of course, but it does carry at least some weight.

BTW, I don't see the A-10 being replaced by the F-35, or any other manned aircraft for that matter.  Seems to me the most likely replacement would be a drone.  Cheaper in terms of material, fuel, and personnel costs, and you can make a relatively fast moving drone, especially if it's controlled from nearby.

For example, you could control several "fast mover" CAS drones in real time relatively locally with a stand-off aircraft manned by drone pilots.  A Boeing airliner refitted could cruise at 40,000 feet and it would have 'line of sight' communications to the drones out to nearly 300 miles.   Put the control aircraft far back from the action, and send the drones in.  Alternatively, if you have ground control pods, you can just put up a relay aircraft, and have the pilots nearly 600 miles away.  The relay aircraft, which can be a drone itself, retransmits the drone and control information back and forth.  Because the distance is much, much shorter than the path it would take to a geosynchronous satellite and back, you can make "fast mover" drones that can maneuver radically, in real time.

If the drones lose a lock on the signal, they would go into a "safe mode"  where they increase height and head back towards base,  until they either regain airborne lock, back-up satellite lock, or local control at the base.
 
2013-08-20 10:21:42 AM  
stop making up animals
 
2013-08-20 10:22:10 AM  

T-Servo: antidisestablishmentarianism: Retiring the bestest plane evar? What will replace it?

Lockheed Martin has assured me that the F-35 will be able to handle all responsibilities of the A-10, and will do it with an invisibility cloak and loiter time of 20+ hours.


Compared to the A-10, the F-35 could get knocked out of a battlefield with a dirty look.
 
2013-08-20 10:22:47 AM  
Considering that there is pretty much no air force on this planet (that's not an ally already), can keep up with the US, I don't see why there is so much thought being put in to replacing old jets.
 
2013-08-20 10:25:11 AM  
I read a book about John Boyd and I guess the Air force HATED the A-10 from the very beginning. They didn't like the idea of having to report to the Army again, it was originally planned for retirement two decades ago but the Gulf War kinda made this plane indispensable.
 
2013-08-20 10:25:53 AM  

Egoy3k: I must be missing something here the A-10 is a extremely effective aircraft and has proven it's worth about a thousand times over. The only possible drawback is the main gun is goddamned expensive to operate.  The thing is the only thing an F-35 can use in place of the A-10's main gun are JDAMs and JSOWs which cost a fortune. Each.


Oh, I don't think you're missing a thing.
 
2013-08-20 10:26:01 AM  

fluffy2097: belhade: It's a flying tank. that flies. HOW CAN YOU RETIRE THAT??

It's a gun with wings. and an engine.

The same man who looked at the GAU-8 and said "Make this gun fly", is the same guy who was carrying a howitzer in a C-130 and said to himself "Let's shoot at targets on the ground with this howitzer, by aiming it out the farking window!"


Descriptions like this never fail to get me cackling madly.
 
2013-08-20 10:27:13 AM  

Plant Rights Activist: stop making up animals


No, no. It does look like a puma.

From the top of a crevice.
 
2013-08-20 10:28:06 AM  
I've always wondered how the warthog could be improved

/improve engine, tweak fuselage, update cockpit?
//unless those and more improvements have been done over the years?
 
2013-08-20 10:28:27 AM  
The chairforce tries to retire the A-10 every couple of years because it's not sexy enough, doesn't have enough wizbang gizmos and doesn't cost as much as a small nations GDP.  It's embarrassing to them that the most effective piece of equipment in their inventory is one of the cheapest and lowest tech.  It's hard to justify F-22s, B-2s and F-35s with the A-10 around.

The sad thing is, the A-10s days are truly numbered.  Yes, they replaced all the inner gizmos and upgraded the whole fleet to A-10C status, but wing cracks from low altitude high G flying are not going away.. and there's only so many A-10 wings out there.  It will have to be replaced eventually.  Hopefully the chairforce replaces it with something worthy instead of another high tech travesty.
 
2013-08-20 10:28:38 AM  

antidisestablishmentarianism: Retiring the bestest plane evar? What will replace it?


Pretty much a unicorn if they are seriously suggesting the F-35.
 
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