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(Patheos)   Progressive Christian (yes, they exist) lays out case for Evangelical Republicans being guilty of Onanism, and no he isn't talking about when they think of Saint Sarah at night   (patheos.com) divider line 318
    More: Obvious, progressive Christians, Republican, sister-in-law  
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3347 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Aug 2013 at 2:25 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-19 03:34:28 PM

Karac: Colour_out_of_Space: The thing that always bothered me about the story of Onan is there is really no way to tell how hot the sister-in-law was.

Hot enough to have sex with, not so hot as to be unable to pull out despite threat of smiting.


I think you are missing reading the story, she was hot enough that Onan was willing to pull out and anger God just so he could keep doing her, must have been wicked hot. She gets knocked up and happy fun time ends.
 
2013-08-19 03:35:12 PM

spongeboob: The Author is not condemning Christians as a whole, he is condemning those that not only do not help their fellow man but those who gain from the suffering of others.


Really? People have been doing that since I don't know...forever. Jim Jones used to Bible to have orgies and convince many people to kill each other and themselves. There are lots of non Christians right now profiting mightily off the misfortune of others. What has this to do with Jesus? As a Christian my first loyalty is to Jesus and what He did and how He lived. So how does evil people doing evil things have any bearing on the message of Jesus?
 
2013-08-19 03:35:12 PM

walkingtall: Which parts trouble you the most? Which parts are you struggling with?

I never claimed I needed your help. You put forward that my understanding of Biblical principles is cause for derision. I am simply asking which of my beliefs about the Bible are worthy of your derision.


Here's something for everyone to realize: trying to live one's life by the teachings of a 2000-2500 year old book requires a pretty sophisticated interpretive framework.   This is a pretty good book to read that will help sharpen a person's thinking on this.
 
2013-08-19 03:36:54 PM
Onan's sin was simply original sin; like Adam, Onan disobeyed a direct order from God.

Apparently, God's touchy about that sort of thing.
 
2013-08-19 03:37:38 PM

walkingtall: The Devil knows the Bible better than any biblical scholar that has lived or will ever live.


This is one reason why we think christians are farking insane - making a far out claim like this without ever having established proof for the existence of a being or entity known as 'The Devil'. I can read an entire wall of reasonable text from a christian and then, *BAM* a whackadoo statement like this pops up...
 
2013-08-19 03:39:19 PM

draypresct: Infernalist: 7) He basically told the world to be good to each other.

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/10.html#34

8) Nonviolent protester.


2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/2.html#11


So you take two quotes out of context without any attempt to understand what is going on. The first quote is sandwiched between the parable about the thief in the night and the mustard seed.

The second one is the only time Jesus flips his shiat in the Bible. It is actually a very human moment and shows us that even Jesus has his limits to his patience. However, it is illustrative of how offensive the money changers in the temple actually are; how would you like it if people were using your religion to make money?
 
2013-08-19 03:39:31 PM

walkingtall: spongeboob: The Author is not condemning Christians as a whole, he is condemning those that not only do not help their fellow man but those who gain from the suffering of others.

Really? People have been doing that since I don't know...forever. Jim Jones used to Bible to have orgies and convince many people to kill each other and themselves. There are lots of non Christians right now profiting mightily off the misfortune of others. What has this to do with Jesus? As a Christian my first loyalty is to Jesus and what He did and how He lived. So how does evil people doing evil things have any bearing on the message of Jesus?


I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
The message of this article was to Christians, using the Bible to talk to non-Christians doesn't work outside of Jack Chick tracts. The author is trying to point out to some particular Christians that they are not following the teachings of the Bible, can you really not understand that?
 
2013-08-19 03:40:21 PM

ArcadianRefugee: Onan's sin was simply original sin; like Adam, Onan disobeyed a direct order from God.

Apparently, God's touchy about that sort of thing.


Re-read the text.  God doesn't say anything to anybody.  And the supposed law for this was putatively in the future.
 
2013-08-19 03:40:55 PM

Scaevola: Here's something for everyone to realize: trying to live one's life by the teachings of a 2000-2500 year old book requires a pretty sophisticated interpretive framework. This is a pretty good book to read that will help sharpen a person's thinking on this.


Yes it does. However you miss one thing. The Bible is both the most complex and deep work that has ever existed yet still simple enough for a child to understand. Jesus was able to boil the entire Bible down into two sentences Matthew 22:36-40. Love your Father with your whole heart and love your neighbor as yourself. There are many things in the Bible debated about and discussed 2000 years later and that is the magic of God inspired text.
 
2013-08-19 03:41:31 PM
*reads headline and braces self*

*clicks and reads TFA*

I am pleasantly surprised.

astro716: I think the point is that he doesn't think there's a biblical backing for conservative evangelicals' violating the spirit of the (biblical) law and thrusting more suffering upon the poor.


It ain't just "spirit", bud.
 
2013-08-19 03:44:24 PM

spongeboob: The message of this article was to Christians, using the Bible to talk to non-Christians doesn't work outside of Jack Chick tracts. The author is trying to point out to some particular Christians that they are not following the teachings of the Bible, can you really not understand that?


Oh I get it. And as I just pointed out this has been used as an indictment against all conservative Christians and even being told we want nothing better then for the poor to suffer and that generalization is what I fight against. The author made the same generalization. Using one story and how it has been misinterpreted to condemn and entire group of people and everything else they might believe. I take umbrage to that characterization.
 
2013-08-19 03:44:54 PM

ArcadianRefugee: Onan's sin was simply original sin; like Adam, Onan disobeyed a direct order from God.

Apparently, God's touchy about that sort of thing.


That is a specific Christian dogma.
 
2013-08-19 03:47:26 PM

walkingtall: spongeboob: The message of this article was to Christians, using the Bible to talk to non-Christians doesn't work outside of Jack Chick tracts. The author is trying to point out to some particular Christians that they are not following the teachings of the Bible, can you really not understand that?

Oh I get it. And as I just pointed out this has been used as an indictment against all conservative Christians and even being told we want nothing better then for the poor to suffer and that generalization is what I fight against. The author made the same generalization. Using one story and how it has been misinterpreted to condemn and entire group of people and everything else they might believe. I take umbrage to that characterization.


When you're done clutching your pearls, you can tell me how conservative evangelicals are fighting the Republican assault on government programs that help poor people (and not those that make weapons).
 
2013-08-19 03:47:35 PM

Elzar: This is one reason why we think christians are farking insane - making a far out claim like this without ever having established proof for the existence of a being or entity known as 'The Devil'. I can read an entire wall of reasonable text from a christian and then, *BAM* a whackadoo statement like this pops up...


Umm what the heck are you talking about? Lucifer is in the very first book of the Bible. Jesus was tempted by the Devil and knew all the scriptures about Jesus. He simply twisted them and tried to get Jesus to sin against His father. This is mainline Christian doctrine. What makes it whackadoo?
 
2013-08-19 03:47:43 PM

zeroman987: So you take two quotes out of context without any attempt to understand what is going on. The first quote is sandwiched between the parable about the thief in the night and the mustard seed.


The first quote is Matt 10:34-35; the mustard seed is Matt 13:31-32 and the thief in the night is Matt 24:42-44 (all KJV). What bible are you using that puts them in a different order?
 
2013-08-19 03:49:34 PM

Scaevola: ArcadianRefugee: Onan's sin was simply original sin; like Adam, Onan disobeyed a direct order from God.

Apparently, God's touchy about that sort of thing.

Re-read the text.  God doesn't say anything to anybody.  And the supposed law for this was putatively in the future.


Sorry, yer right. For some reason, I always thought it to be God telling him what to do.

Huh. God's even pissier than I'd thought.
 
2013-08-19 03:50:01 PM

walkingtall: Scaevola: Here's something for everyone to realize: trying to live one's life by the teachings of a 2000-2500 year old book requires a pretty sophisticated interpretive framework. This is a pretty good book to read that will help sharpen a person's thinking on this.

Yes it does. However you miss one thing. The Bible is both the most complex and deep work that has ever existed yet still simple enough for a child to understand. Jesus was able to boil the entire Bible down into two sentences Matthew 22:36-40. Love your Father with your whole heart and love your neighbor as yourself. There are many things in the Bible debated about and discussed 2000 years later and that is the magic of God inspired text.


It can't be both, either it is easy enough for a child to understand or it takes a lot of work.
 
2013-08-19 03:50:08 PM

walkingtall: Oh I get it. And as I just pointed out this has been used as an indictment against all conservative Christians and even being told we want nothing better then for the poor to suffer and that generalization is what I fight against. The author made the same generalization. Using one story and how it has been misinterpreted to condemn and entire group of people and everything else they might believe. I take umbrage to that characterization.


So you're not for gutting the programs that heal the sick, and feed the poor and hungry, help reform and comfort those who are in prison, provide openhanded hospitality to aliens in our land, help protect widows and orphans, and that keep people off the street?

You must be some sort of CCINO.
 
2013-08-19 03:51:23 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: ArcadianRefugee: ...original sin....

That is a specific Christian dogma.


....so?
 
2013-08-19 03:52:17 PM

ArkPanda: As a Progressive Christian (at least occasionally) I have to say this is a bit of a stretch.  The guy spends 95% of the article on a detailed analysis of Genesis 38 and the context it needs to be understandable.  So far, so good.  Then at the end he tacks on "Oh, by the way, fark Republicans."


I don't think that last bit was tacked on.  It was kinda the point that the whole article was building to.
 
2013-08-19 03:52:29 PM

walkingtall: Esc7: Well I can't speak for the majority but I'll say I always thought Onan was a story about masturbating. Until today that is.

And this is why Christianity is failing. Christians don't even know what they claim to believe. Christians know very little history and precious little Bible. Today I will have someone in some forum tell me how Christian they are except for the whole Jesus was God thing. Well, believe that if you want but kind of hard to say you are a Christian if you do. etc

You sit there all smug like this author has hit the nail on the head but the real problem is that people do not even know what they are supposed to believe nor do any due diligence.


I AM NOT a Christian.  My family never were Christians and our ancestors never were.  I've been inside two churches my entire life (for weddings) and I've seen a few bibles in hotel rooms.  That's it.  I am completely ignorant of Christianity except for when I run into it in popular culture, in articles like this one, and in politics.

And let me tell you, all I've picked up is that everything sexual seems to be sin, masturbation included.  Stupid abstinence school programs even said that the Christian god dislikes masturbation!

So if finding this article elucidating, and also standing in contrast to the political religious party of America makes me "smug" go ahead and call me a smug SOB.

/oh no i'm smug!  literally the worst thing a person could be!
 
2013-08-19 03:54:19 PM

ArcadianRefugee: demaL-demaL-yeH: ArcadianRefugee: ...original sin....

That is a specific Christian dogma.

....so?


It isn't in the Torah.
 
2013-08-19 03:54:26 PM

walkingtall: Scaevola: Here's something for everyone to realize: trying to live one's life by the teachings of a 2000-2500 year old book requires a pretty sophisticated interpretive framework. This is a pretty good book to read that will help sharpen a person's thinking on this.

Yes it does. However you miss one thing. The Bible is both the most complex and deep work that has ever existed yet still simple enough for a child to understand. Jesus was able to boil the entire Bible down into two sentences Matthew 22:36-40. Love your Father with your whole heart and love your neighbor as yourself. There are many things in the Bible debated about and discussed 2000 years later and that is the magic of God inspired text.


I'm not going to get an answer from you, am I?
 
2013-08-19 03:56:16 PM
Don't they have banks for that sort of thing?  Is that what they mean by "Jesus Saves"?
 
2013-08-19 03:56:28 PM

walkingtall: Scaevola: Here's something for everyone to realize: trying to live one's life by the teachings of a 2000-2500 year old book requires a pretty sophisticated interpretive framework. This is a pretty good book to read that will help sharpen a person's thinking on this.

Yes it does. However you miss one thing. The Bible is both the most complex and deep work that has ever existed yet still simple enough for a child to understand. Jesus was able to boil the entire Bible down into two sentences Matthew 22:36-40. Love your Father with your whole heart and love your neighbor as yourself. There are many things in the Bible debated about and discussed 2000 years later and that is the magic of God inspired text.


Sorry.  That's your opinion, and not a statement of fact.  Have you ever read the Mahayana?  Or Homer in the original?  Complex and deep...
 
2013-08-19 03:56:31 PM

walkingtall: Elzar: This is one reason why we think christians are farking insane - making a far out claim like this without ever having established proof for the existence of a being or entity known as 'The Devil'. I can read an entire wall of reasonable text from a christian and then, *BAM* a whackadoo statement like this pops up...

Umm what the heck are you talking about? Lucifer is in the very first book of the Bible. Jesus was tempted by the Devil and knew all the scriptures about Jesus. He simply twisted them and tried to get Jesus to sin against His father. This is mainline Christian doctrine. What makes it whackadoo?


I'll indulge you on the existence of Jesus and 'The Devil' despite the deafening lack of evidence for the existence of either. If the Devil knew all the scriptures about Jesus, why did he try to tempt Jesus - because he would know it to be a fool's errand based on his knowledge about Jesus. So much of christianity is this same sort of nonsensical circular reasoning. I'm sure you mean well, but have you ever given your religious beliefs any real critical thought?
 
2013-08-19 03:56:39 PM

astro716: Show me the evangelical action group calling their congressmen to reinstate funds from the SNAP cuts, and then we'll talk about my shame.


Well, the UCC and a lot of other left wing churches have been protesting the insanity that's happening in NC. (It's not JUST religious people at the moral monday protests, mind), especially pissed about how it's going to dispraportionately affect the poor.

The pastor of the church I grew up in was even one of the folks arrested (for... ... I'm not sure, since what they were doing was completely legal. ... The same thing the folks in WI were getting arrested for, I suppose.)


zeroman987: The second one is the only time Jesus flips his shiat in the Bible. It is actually a very human moment and shows us that even Jesus has his limits to his patience. However, it is illustrative of how offensive the money changers in the temple actually are; how would you like it if people were using your religion to make money?


Aye, the one time Jesus gets truly, utterly, rip-roaringly pissed is when people are utilizing religion to line their own pockets. Not the roman soldiers come to take him to his death, not Judas, not Satan, but the *moneychangers*.

... And yet the prosperity gospel IS A THING. That *still* hurts my head.
 
2013-08-19 03:58:21 PM

Scaevola: walkingtall: Scaevola: Here's something for everyone to realize: trying to live one's life by the teachings of a 2000-2500 year old book requires a pretty sophisticated interpretive framework. This is a pretty good book to read that will help sharpen a person's thinking on this.

Yes it does. However you miss one thing. The Bible is both the most complex and deep work that has ever existed yet still simple enough for a child to understand. Jesus was able to boil the entire Bible down into two sentences Matthew 22:36-40. Love your Father with your whole heart and love your neighbor as yourself. There are many things in the Bible debated about and discussed 2000 years later and that is the magic of God inspired text.

Sorry.  That's your opinion, and not a statement of fact.  Have you ever read the Mahayana?  Or Homer in the original?  Complex and deep...


Dammit, I meant, "Ramayana," which got screwed up in my mind with "Mahabharata," and came out as the branch of Buddhism.  Apologies.
 
2013-08-19 03:59:14 PM

zeroman987: So you take two quotes out of context without any attempt to understand what is going on. The first quote is sandwiched between the parable about the thief in the night and the mustard seed.


What context would turn the first quote into an attempt to make people "be good to each other"?


The second one is the only time Jesus flips his shiat in the Bible. It is actually a very human moment and shows us that even Jesus has his limits to his patience. However, it is illustrative of how offensive the money changers in the temple actually are; how would you like it if people were using your religion to make money?

Um, no, that's not the only time Jesus flips out. Apparently moneychangers are more offensive than state executions or slavery (neither of which led to Jesus physically attacking anyone), but not as offensive as a fig tree that isn't bearing fruit in April.

. . . when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. . . . And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. ... And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
 
2013-08-19 03:59:29 PM

Felgraf: astro716: Show me the evangelical action group calling their congressmen to reinstate funds from the SNAP cuts, and then we'll talk about my shame.

Well, the UCC and a lot of other left wing churches have been protesting the insanity that's happening in NC. (It's not JUST religious people at the moral monday protests, mind), especially pissed about how it's going to dispraportionately affect the poor.

The pastor of the church I grew up in was even one of the folks arrested (for... ... I'm not sure, since what they were doing was completely legal. ... The same thing the folks in WI were getting arrested for, I suppose.)



Good on them.  Seriously.  I guess I missed the word "conservative" in my statement, because I know a lot of progressive Christians do actually read their own holy book.
 
2013-08-19 03:59:58 PM
I'm not Christian and even I want to burn the prosperity gospel preachers at the stake for heresy. Thats how offensive they are.
 
2013-08-19 04:02:21 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: ArcadianRefugee: demaL-demaL-yeH: ArcadianRefugee: ...original sin....

That is a specific Christian dogma.

....so?

It isn't in the Torah.


Yyyyeah, I get that. I'm just wondering why you're bothering to point it out.

I mean, I was apparently wrong about Onan in the first place, but why are you noting a difference in Jewish vs Christian dogma at all?
 
2013-08-19 04:04:57 PM

astro716: Good on them. Seriously. I guess I missed the word "conservative" in my statement, because I know a lot of progressive Christians do actually read their own holy book.


Ah, alright! No worries. =)

Weaver95: I'm not Christian and even I want to burn the prosperity gospel preachers at the stake for heresy. Thats how offensive they are.


Pretty much, yeah. My own religious views have drifted and are... difficult to classify now, but jesus fark does the Prosperity Gospel make me froth with anger.
 
2013-08-19 04:05:26 PM

Esc7: /oh no i'm smug!  literally the worst thing a person could be!


Smug monster, rubbing the noses of fundies/evangelicals in their hypocrisy.

They're only faithfully following the teachings of Conservative(SM) Jebus, who said:
Starve the poor. (Kill SNAP)
Throw the deadbeats out on the streets. (Kill Section 8)
Kill the ill. (Repeal Obamacare and defund Medicaid.)
Rob the elders of treasure and health. (Privatize Medicare and Social Security.)
Criminalize being born elsewhere. (No Anmestey[sic] for Messicans and other non melanin-challenged people.)
Punish prisoners while they're already being punished. (Mandatory minimum sentences, privatized prisons, exporting prisoners to other states away from their families, and ending and defunding reform and education programs.)
 
2013-08-19 04:06:06 PM

walkingtall: astro716: I think the point is that he doesn't think there's a biblical backing for conservative evangelicals' violating the spirit of the (biblical) law and thrusting more suffering upon the poor.

Has it really got to the point where we have two sides so demonizing the other that this statement is ok in any discussion? You should be ashamed of yourself. Useless emotion filled accusations do not a debate make. There is not a single conservative evangelical that you can show me wishes, desires, or through inaction, is ok with suffering upon the poor. They might not agree with the path and methods to help but to make a claim like this and projecting evil motives on an entire group of people is simply ridiculous. Fark is always up in arms about how bad Christians are yet claims and rhetoric like this is never challenged. Shameful


Beg your pardon:
Congressman Stephen Fncher quoting the bible to justify cutting food stamps:"the one who is uniwlling to work shall not eat
Polling Evangelicals: Cut Aid to World's Poor, Unemployed
And then there's the matter of the Tea Party and where they get thier support form and what they are doing:

White evangelical Protestants are roughly five times more likely to agree with the Tea Party movement than to disagree with it, Pew found.

-House Tea Party Republicans leading fight to cut food stamps by $40 Billion

 Sequestration cuts Head Start for 57,000 children


so now you were saying?
 
2013-08-19 04:06:40 PM

walkingtall: The Devil knows the Bible better than any biblical scholar that has lived or will ever live.


Best excuse against studying the Bible ever.

Here's a fun experiment: show me in the bible where the devil actually is "the devil" as you see him. How do you picture the devil? What passages of the Bible reflect this against artistic and literary depictions of the dark and middle ages, and after? The serpent in the Bible is inferred to be the devil according to some Christians, but it is not explicitly said that the serpent is the, or any, devil. "Lucifer" appears no-farking-where in the old testament, and "Ha-Satan" is simply "the adversary," and is identified as an indefinite opposition twice as often as it is identified as a specific force (in Job and Zechariah).

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing religious people that he's at fault, giving them an excuse to not examine themselves and their choices.
 
2013-08-19 04:08:39 PM

Felgraf: astro716: Good on them. Seriously. I guess I missed the word "conservative" in my statement, because I know a lot of progressive Christians do actually read their own holy book.

Ah, alright! No worries. =)

Weaver95: I'm not Christian and even I want to burn the prosperity gospel preachers at the stake for heresy. Thats how offensive they are.

Pretty much, yeah. My own religious views have drifted and are... difficult to classify now, but jesus fark does the Prosperity Gospel make me froth with anger.


For my part, it got better when I finally stopped lying to myself and just admitted I was pagan and had been for a long time now.
 
2013-08-19 04:08:52 PM

ArcadianRefugee: demaL-demaL-yeH: ArcadianRefugee: demaL-demaL-yeH: ArcadianRefugee: ...original sin....

That is a specific Christian dogma.

....so?

It isn't in the Torah.

Yyyyeah, I get that. I'm just wondering why you're bothering to point it out.

I mean, I was apparently wrong about Onan in the first place, but why are you noting a difference in Jewish vs Christian dogma at all?


Might be because I read the original in the original language.
/It's a Jewish thing: You wouldn't understand.  (language NSFW)
 
2013-08-19 04:09:24 PM

Scaevola: walkingtall: Scaevola: Here's something for everyone to realize: trying to live one's life by the teachings of a 2000-2500 year old book requires a pretty sophisticated interpretive framework. This is a pretty good book to read that will help sharpen a person's thinking on this.

Yes it does. However you miss one thing. The Bible is both the most complex and deep work that has ever existed yet still simple enough for a child to understand. Jesus was able to boil the entire Bible down into two sentences Matthew 22:36-40. Love your Father with your whole heart and love your neighbor as yourself. There are many things in the Bible debated about and discussed 2000 years later and that is the magic of God inspired text.

Sorry.  That's your opinion, and not a statement of fact.  Have you ever read the Mahayana?  Or Homer in the original?  Complex and deep...


Or the Rig Veda. The Bible is no more complex or important as any other religious text.
 
2013-08-19 04:12:55 PM
Magorn: (useful links)

so now you were saying?

Thanks for doing the leg-work I wasn't willing to do today!

/not enough coffee
 
2013-08-19 04:13:04 PM

walkingtall: Elzar: This is one reason why we think christians are farking insane - making a far out claim like this without ever having established proof for the existence of a being or entity known as 'The Devil'. I can read an entire wall of reasonable text from a christian and then, *BAM* a whackadoo statement like this pops up...

Umm what the heck are you talking about? Lucifer is in the very first book of the Bible. Jesus was tempted by the Devil and knew all the scriptures about Jesus. He simply twisted them and tried to get Jesus to sin against His father. This is mainline Christian doctrine. What makes it whackadoo?


Yes or No

Do you now or have you ever logged into Fark.com using the username Bevets?
 
2013-08-19 04:17:57 PM

walkingtall: Elzar: This is one reason why we think christians are farking insane - making a far out claim like this without ever having established proof for the existence of a being or entity known as 'The Devil'. I can read an entire wall of reasonable text from a christian and then, *BAM* a whackadoo statement like this pops up...

Umm what the heck are you talking about? Lucifer is in the very first book of the Bible. Jesus was tempted by the Devil and knew all the scriptures about Jesus. He simply twisted them and tried to get Jesus to sin against His father. This is mainline Christian doctrine. What makes it whackadoo?


Adam and Eve were tempted by The Serpent.  Not Satan.

Secondly, the old Testament(Torah) treats him not as someone trying to drag everyone to Hell, but as a Celestial District Attorney, charged with standing before God and listing all your sins and explaining why you don't deserve to get into Heaven.

Hell, in the book of Job, Satan is IN HEAVEN HANGING OUT WITH GOD, and they make a bet about Job.  Satan gets to go down there and rip his life apart, kill all his kids, take all his wealth and possessions and leave him with just a bunch of 'friends' that encourage him to CURSE GOD AND DIE.

Instead, Job maintains and God eventually rewards his masochism after admonishing him for being OVERLY SELF-RIGHTEOUS.  That's right, Job still gets reprimanded before God goes ahead and gives him back his wealth and possessions and allows him to have a bunch of kids again to replace the ones that God Killed.

And throughout this story, it's Satan acting as God's agent, only able to assail Job with god's permission.  Think about 'that' for a while.

And lastly, in the New Testament, you see the Satan transform from an agent of God into an enemy of God.

So, in essence, you have three different beings holding the title.  The Serpent, Satan, and Lucifer.  All distinct entities with different purposes and goals.
 
2013-08-19 04:20:11 PM
This discussion has been fascinating to follow.
 
2013-08-19 04:23:51 PM
The prosperity gospel and its adherents have usurped the true message of Christ and they do so strictly out of greed.  "Just give more and God will surely make you rich!  It hasn't happened yet?  Then give MOAR."

Their self-sanctified selfishness is what drives many away from the Church and, to me, is reaching that level of corruption that many people associate with the selling of indulgences in the Dark Ages.
 
2013-08-19 04:24:30 PM

Infernalist: walkingtall: Elzar: This is one reason why we think christians are farking insane - making a far out claim like this without ever having established proof for the existence of a being or entity known as 'The Devil'. I can read an entire wall of reasonable text from a christian and then, *BAM* a whackadoo statement like this pops up...

Umm what the heck are you talking about? Lucifer is in the very first book of the Bible. Jesus was tempted by the Devil and knew all the scriptures about Jesus. He simply twisted them and tried to get Jesus to sin against His father. This is mainline Christian doctrine. What makes it whackadoo?

Adam and Eve were tempted by The Serpent.  Not Satan.

Secondly, the old Testament(Torah) treats him not as someone trying to drag everyone to Hell, but as a Celestial District Attorney, charged with standing before God and listing all your sins and explaining why you don't deserve to get into Heaven.

Hell, in the book of Job, Satan is IN HEAVEN HANGING OUT WITH GOD, and they make a bet about Job.  Satan gets to go down there and rip his life apart, kill all his kids, take all his wealth and possessions and leave him with just a bunch of 'friends' that encourage him to CURSE GOD AND DIE.

Instead, Job maintains and God eventually rewards his masochism after admonishing him for being OVERLY SELF-RIGHTEOUS.  That's right, Job still gets reprimanded before God goes ahead and gives him back his wealth and possessions and allows him to have a bunch of kids again to replace the ones that God Killed.

And throughout this story, it's Satan acting as God's agent, only able to assail Job with god's permission.  Think about 'that' for a while.

And lastly, in the New Testament, you see the Satan transform from an agent of God into an enemy of God.

So, in essence, you have three different beings holding the title.  The Serpent, Satan, and Lucifer.  All distinct entities with different purposes and goals.


Its almost as if the Bible was written by mortal men all intent on enacting their own agenda... certainly not a master work deserving the hyperbolic opinion of, "most complex and deep work that has ever existed "
 
2013-08-19 04:24:40 PM

Bloody William: But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord put him to death.

Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother." But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brother's wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother.

What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.
This seems less a condemnation of masturbating, and more a condemnation of pulling out.


Did you not read the article?  He put him to death not because of pulling out for the sake of pulling out but due to the implications.  The law indicated he must attempt to make her pregnant so the first child can carry his deceased brothers name.  Instead, he abused the law by preventing the chance of her getting pregnant.  He basically attempted a "loophole" that god somehow didn't see or expect to avoid following the law.  Of course, that pissed god off so god smited him.
 
2013-08-19 04:25:01 PM

Infernalist: The prosperity gospel and its adherents have usurped the true message of Christ and they do so strictly out of greed.  "Just give more and God will surely make you rich!  It hasn't happened yet?  Then give MOAR."

Their self-sanctified selfishness is what drives many away from the Church and, to me, is reaching that level of corruption that many people associate with the selling of indulgences in the Dark Ages.


And then they wonder why there's a resurgence in pagan religions...
 
2013-08-19 04:25:31 PM

Infernalist: So, in essence, you have three different beings holding the title.  The Serpent, Satan, and Lucifer.  All distinct entities with different purposes and goals.


That's before you get into the perception of the devil influenced over centuries by literature, unjustified and nonscriptural superstition, and other religions. The devil as most Western Christians see him now is far more influenced by Milton, Bosch, and Dante than anything in the Bible. Add to it the prominent similarities of the devil as depicted culturally to many pagan gods and demigods, and the fact that the popular image of what hell is is more a cross between Bosch and Looney Toons than even anything Dante wrote, nevermind what was actually in the Bible, and you have a concept of evil tainted by centuries of adaptation completely outside of scripture.
 
2013-08-19 04:27:09 PM

Elzar: Its almost as if the Bible was written by mortal men all intent on enacting their own agenda... certainly not a master work deserving the hyperbolic opinion of, "most complex and deep work that has ever existed "


Next you'll be saying that most of the New Testament and the ideas shaping all Christian churches were written not by Jesus and the apostles, but an angry Greek guy several decades after Jesus was killed.
 
2013-08-19 04:29:45 PM

Bloody William: Infernalist: So, in essence, you have three different beings holding the title.  The Serpent, Satan, and Lucifer.  All distinct entities with different purposes and goals.

That's before you get into the perception of the devil influenced over centuries by literature, unjustified and nonscriptural superstition, and other religions. The devil as most Western Christians see him now is far more influenced by Milton, Bosch, and Dante than anything in the Bible. Add to it the prominent similarities of the devil as depicted culturally to many pagan gods and demigods, and the fact that the popular image of what hell is is more a cross between Bosch and Looney Toons than even anything Dante wrote, nevermind what was actually in the Bible, and you have a concept of evil tainted by centuries of adaptation completely outside of scripture.


To be blunt, the image of Satan with the cloven hooves and horns comes straight from Pan of Greek Mythology.
 
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