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(Patheos)   Progressive Christian (yes, they exist) lays out case for Evangelical Republicans being guilty of Onanism, and no he isn't talking about when they think of Saint Sarah at night   (patheos.com) divider line 318
    More: Obvious, progressive Christians, Republican, sister-in-law  
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3346 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Aug 2013 at 2:25 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-19 06:09:57 PM

Weaver95: it should be irrelevant to you what others think about your gods. what matters is YOUR connection to the divine, not theirs.


If you cannot defend your faith what is the use? What would happen if Im wrong? I was an atheist from the very darkest pits of atheism. Nobody was more atheist than me. However, I did come to the realization about what I believed and its implications for example how I raised my children, and I knew that if there was truth I wanted to know it no matter what the outcome might be. If it meant all was pointless in this life then so be it. If there truly was no God then so be it. If there was and was unknowable then so be it. Etc. I simply wanted to walk in truth whatever that might be.

Being able to defend my faith is very relevant. It does matter. I might never reach a single person on any site I write to but just maybe I can plant a seed. A seed to help someone seek the truth. That is why I put up with the abuse and the names and definitely being in the minority on most subjects. To be laughed at and called names even just on the Internet is painful. Nobody likes to think everyone thinks them stupid. Yet here I am.
 
2013-08-19 06:12:05 PM

Tigger: I didn't take a position on lay people: The 'serious and scholarly' obviously make that point. If you want to keep banging on about that then be my guest but it's completely farking irrelevant to the core issue.


I wish very much that were the truth. This isn't some think tank discussion with all dual Phd round table. This is an Internet site with pretty much all lay people. What lay people believe, what culture force feeds people is important.
 
2013-08-19 06:15:34 PM

Weaver95: did you ever get around to addressing the issue of conservative christians and their prosperity gospel theology? specifically, i'm wondering how one can base an economic agenda on ayn rand, then try to claim that one is still a christian...because the two ideologies are in all ways opposed. In fact you couldn't get more opposite if you tried.


prosperity theology isn't even a real theology. It is rejected by pretty much any church you want to name. There have been all kinds of heretical beliefs spouted about for 2000 years. Are you really painting all conservative Christians as prosperity gospel believing? That is 100% false and no wonder I didn't answer. My eyes must have glazed over it as completely nonsensical.
 
2013-08-19 06:17:15 PM

walkingtall: Tigger: I didn't take a position on lay people: The 'serious and scholarly' obviously make that point. If you want to keep banging on about that then be my guest but it's completely farking irrelevant to the core issue.

I wish very much that were the truth. This isn't some think tank discussion with all dual Phd round table. This is an Internet site with pretty much all lay people. What lay people believe, what culture force feeds people is important.


Well the one guy who dumbly said Jesus didn't exist and has been called out as dumb over and over has certainly.  given you something to talk about rather than the issue so I guess that's something.
 
2013-08-19 06:20:34 PM

walkingtall: Weaver95: did you ever get around to addressing the issue of conservative christians and their prosperity gospel theology? specifically, i'm wondering how one can base an economic agenda on ayn rand, then try to claim that one is still a christian...because the two ideologies are in all ways opposed. In fact you couldn't get more opposite if you tried.

prosperity theology isn't even a real theology. It is rejected by pretty much any church you want to name. There have been all kinds of heretical beliefs spouted about for 2000 years. Are you really painting all conservative Christians as prosperity gospel believing? That is 100% false and no wonder I didn't answer. My eyes must have glazed over it as completely nonsensical.


that doesn't answer my question.  look - prosperity gospel theology is a very real and powerful influence on the Republican religious right wing.  it's well funded, and very organized.  it pushes it's agenda relentlessly.  YOU might not want to confront it's influence on christianity in the US but that doesn't make it go away.  So I guess that tells me something about your knowledge of your own theology and how it affects the world around you.
 
2013-08-19 06:21:55 PM

Mouldy Squid: The fact is that Paul did purposefully alter and manipulate the fledgling religion in direct defiance of and in opposition to the Mother Council headed by James in Jerusalem. He was recalled to Jerusalem twice to answer for his heretical teachings and writings, the prime of which was the the claim that Jesus was the Son of God.


This is completely 100% false. Im sorry but this theory has been put forth and rebuked at every turn. Paul did not create core doctrine. He refined it but the core existed from the very beginning. I cant take seriously the rest of what you wrote because this is demonstrably false and it shows a non intellectual bias that is pointless to debate.
 
2013-08-19 06:24:05 PM

walkingtall: Weaver95: it should be irrelevant to you what others think about your gods. what matters is YOUR connection to the divine, not theirs.

If you cannot defend your faith what is the use? What would happen if Im wrong? I was an atheist from the very darkest pits of atheism. Nobody was more atheist than me. However, I did come to the realization about what I believed and its implications for example how I raised my children, and I knew that if there was truth I wanted to know it no matter what the outcome might be. If it meant all was pointless in this life then so be it. If there truly was no God then so be it. If there was and was unknowable then so be it. Etc. I simply wanted to walk in truth whatever that might be.

Being able to defend my faith is very relevant. It does matter. I might never reach a single person on any site I write to but just maybe I can plant a seed. A seed to help someone seek the truth. That is why I put up with the abuse and the names and definitely being in the minority on most subjects. To be laughed at and called names even just on the Internet is painful. Nobody likes to think everyone thinks them stupid. Yet here I am.


that's just it - you aren't defending your faith.  you think you are but...you ignore evidence that doesn't fit with your ideology, you ignore facts that don't fit your narrative and you assume everyone should be christian just like you without considering that there are other faiths and beliefs that are equally as valid as your own.  i'm sure you have a strong belief in your gods...but you'd better get used to dealing with the fact that there are others out here in the world who's religious ideals predate your own and have just as much right to live their lives their way as you do with you and yours.
 
2013-08-19 06:24:56 PM

Weaver95: that doesn't answer my question. look - prosperity gospel theology is a very real and powerful influence on the Republican religious right wing. it's well funded, and very organized. it pushes it's agenda relentlessly.


No it isn't. Im afraid you are seeing boogey men under the bed and it has the face of Joel Osteen. It is a fringe belief system taken to extremes. There is nothing biblical about "name it claim it" theology. It is indefensible as a theology. It is not affecting anything but people's individual relationship with God and while that is sad enough it has no real power.
 
2013-08-19 06:25:38 PM

walkingtall: Weaver95: it should be irrelevant to you what others think about your gods. what matters is YOUR connection to the divine, not theirs.

If you cannot defend your faith what is the use? What would happen if Im wrong? I was an atheist from the very darkest pits of atheism. Nobody was more atheist than me. However, I did come to the realization about what I believed and its implications for example how I raised my children, and I knew that if there was truth I wanted to know it no matter what the outcome might be. If it meant all was pointless in this life then so be it. If there truly was no God then so be it. If there was and was unknowable then so be it. Etc. I simply wanted to walk in truth whatever that might be.

Being able to defend my faith is very relevant. It does matter. I might never reach a single person on any site I write to but just maybe I can plant a seed. A seed to help someone seek the truth. That is why I put up with the abuse and the names and definitely being in the minority on most subjects. To be laughed at and called names even just on the Internet is painful. Nobody likes to think everyone thinks them stupid. Yet here I am.


What's funny is that you think faith needs defending.
 
2013-08-19 06:26:06 PM

walkingtall: Weaver95: that doesn't answer my question. look - prosperity gospel theology is a very real and powerful influence on the Republican religious right wing. it's well funded, and very organized. it pushes it's agenda relentlessly.

No it isn't. Im afraid you are seeing boogey men under the bed and it has the face of Joel Osteen. It is a fringe belief system taken to extremes. There is nothing biblical about "name it claim it" theology. It is indefensible as a theology. It is not affecting anything but people's individual relationship with God and while that is sad enough it has no real power.


Paul Ryan is 'fringe'?  huh.  interesting.
 
2013-08-19 06:26:22 PM

walkingtall: Mouldy Squid: The fact is that Paul did purposefully alter and manipulate the fledgling religion in direct defiance of and in opposition to the Mother Council headed by James in Jerusalem. He was recalled to Jerusalem twice to answer for his heretical teachings and writings, the prime of which was the the claim that Jesus was the Son of God.

This is completely 100% false. Im sorry but this theory has been put forth and rebuked at every turn. Paul did not create core doctrine. He refined it but the core existed from the very beginning. I cant take seriously the rest of what you wrote because this is demonstrably false and it shows a non intellectual bias that is pointless to debate.


and in with that the last remaining shred of credibility went up in flames.
 
2013-08-19 06:28:28 PM
walkingtall:

prosperity theology isn't even a real theology. It is rejected by pretty much any church you want to name.

Christian prosperity theology is rejected by non-christian-prosperity churches.  Therefore, Christianity is clean of any prosperity gospel. Also, it is no true Scotsman....
 
2013-08-19 06:30:36 PM

walkingtall: Weaver95: it should be irrelevant to you what others think about your gods. what matters is YOUR connection to the divine, not theirs.

If you cannot defend your faith what is the use? What would happen if Im wrong? I was an atheist from the very darkest pits of atheism. Nobody was more atheist than me. However, I did come to the realization about what I believed and its implications for example how I raised my children, and I knew that if there was truth I wanted to know it no matter what the outcome might be. If it meant all was pointless in this life then so be it. If there truly was no God then so be it. If there was and was unknowable then so be it. Etc. I simply wanted to walk in truth whatever that might be.

Being able to defend my faith is very relevant. It does matter. I might never reach a single person on any site I write to but just maybe I can plant a seed. A seed to help someone seek the truth. That is why I put up with the abuse and the names and definitely being in the minority on most subjects. To be laughed at and called names even just on the Internet is painful. Nobody likes to think everyone thinks them stupid. Yet here I am.


NOT BUYING THIS.
By the by how do you grade atheism?
 
2013-08-19 06:31:41 PM

spongeboob: walkingtall: Weaver95: it should be irrelevant to you what others think about your gods. what matters is YOUR connection to the divine, not theirs.

If you cannot defend your faith what is the use? What would happen if Im wrong? I was an atheist from the very darkest pits of atheism. Nobody was more atheist than me. However, I did come to the realization about what I believed and its implications for example how I raised my children, and I knew that if there was truth I wanted to know it no matter what the outcome might be. If it meant all was pointless in this life then so be it. If there truly was no God then so be it. If there was and was unknowable then so be it. Etc. I simply wanted to walk in truth whatever that might be.

Being able to defend my faith is very relevant. It does matter. I might never reach a single person on any site I write to but just maybe I can plant a seed. A seed to help someone seek the truth. That is why I put up with the abuse and the names and definitely being in the minority on most subjects. To be laughed at and called names even just on the Internet is painful. Nobody likes to think everyone thinks them stupid. Yet here I am.

NOT BUYING THIS.
By the by how do you grade atheism?


Is 'more atheist' like being 'more pregnant'?  Or 'more dead'?
 
2013-08-19 06:32:09 PM

Infernalist: What's funny is that you think faith needs defending.


Absolutely. Blind faith is silly. If God told me to walk off a ledge of a cliff I would do so. I would do so because I have faith in God's goodness and power and would do what He told me to. That is faith. It is a faith grounded in many years of study and thought and learning. As a new Christian I would guarantee you that would be looking down to see if there was something that would catch me or do some serious questioning about why. I wouldn't lack faith in God as existing but faith in who He was. Faith is not all or nothing and it isn't blind.
 
2013-08-19 06:32:23 PM

walkingtall: Weaver95: it should be irrelevant to you what others think about your gods. what matters is YOUR connection to the divine, not theirs.

If you cannot defend your faith what is the use? What would happen if Im wrong? I was an atheist from the very darkest pits of atheism. Nobody was more atheist than me. However, I did come to the realization about what I believed and its implications for example how I raised my children, and I knew that if there was truth I wanted to know it no matter what the outcome might be. If it meant all was pointless in this life then so be it. If there truly was no God then so be it. If there was and was unknowable then so be it. Etc. I simply wanted to walk in truth whatever that might be.

Being able to defend my faith is very relevant. It does matter. I might never reach a single person on any site I write to but just maybe I can plant a seed. A seed to help someone seek the truth. That is why I put up with the abuse and the names and definitely being in the minority on most subjects. To be laughed at and called names even just on the Internet is painful. Nobody likes to think everyone thinks them stupid. Yet here I am.


Aaaaaaaand farkied: Chick tract. Probably bringing poeslaw to the Fark potluck.
 
2013-08-19 06:32:32 PM
spongeboob:
By the by how do you grade atheism?

well, it was really good on the approach and mount, but the dismount was pretty rough.  I'd give it a 4.3 overall.
 
2013-08-19 06:34:24 PM

walkingtall: Infernalist: What's funny is that you think faith needs defending.

Absolutely. Blind faith is silly. If God told me to walk off a ledge of a cliff I would do so. I would do so because I have faith in God's goodness and power and would do what He told me to. That is faith. It is a faith grounded in many years of study and thought and learning. As a new Christian I would guarantee you that would be looking down to see if there was something that would catch me or do some serious questioning about why. I wouldn't lack faith in God as existing but faith in who He was. Faith is not all or nothing and it isn't blind.


but...you ignore the corrupting influences within your own chosen faith.   just in this thread alone you blinded yourself to the very real dangers and influences of prosperity gospel preachers on evangelical christianity.
 
2013-08-19 06:36:18 PM
Personally, if I had to describe my religious beliefs, I'd probably be a Pratchettarian.

/Worse religions to be.
//He's got the best definition of sin that *I'VE* ever see.
///Or, at least, where sin *starts*.
 
2013-08-19 06:36:19 PM

Weaver95: walkingtall: Infernalist: What's funny is that you think faith needs defending.

Absolutely. Blind faith is silly. If God told me to walk off a ledge of a cliff I would do so. I would do so because I have faith in God's goodness and power and would do what He told me to. That is faith. It is a faith grounded in many years of study and thought and learning. As a new Christian I would guarantee you that would be looking down to see if there was something that would catch me or do some serious questioning about why. I wouldn't lack faith in God as existing but faith in who He was. Faith is not all or nothing and it isn't blind.

but...you ignore the corrupting influences within your own chosen faith.   just in this thread alone you blinded yourself to the very real dangers and influences of prosperity gospel preachers on evangelical christianity.


Not to mention the origin of this argument, which is the neglect of the poor in favor of political tribalism.
 
2013-08-19 06:37:33 PM

Tigger: and in with that the last remaining shred of credibility went up in flames.


If to get credibility with you I have to accept that Paul created the doctrine that Jesus was God by himself over the objections of the rest of the Christian church then yes I have no credibility with you because that never happened. Paul didn't create the divinity of Christ just as the Council of Nicea didn't create the divinity of Christ as Dan Brown asserts. He himself says He is God and it wasn't in debate for even one second within the core church. Not since the Day of Pentecost for sure.
 
2013-08-19 06:41:10 PM
but...you ignore the corrupting influences within your own chosen faith. just in this thread alone you blinded yourself to the very real dangers and influences of prosperity gospel preachers on evangelical christianity.

It has been rejected. It isn't accepted or liked among conservative Christian churches. About every other Sunday my pastor gets angry that prosperity gospel is out there. Every church I know of rejects it. What more can we do? It has no biblical authority. It is out there because people want to believe it. It is easy. It is convenient. People have always done crap like that.
 
2013-08-19 06:42:43 PM

walkingtall: Infernalist: What's funny is that you think faith needs defending.

Absolutely. Blind faith is silly. If God told me to walk off a ledge of a cliff I would do so. I would do so because I have faith in God's goodness and power and would do what He told me to. That is faith. It is a faith grounded in many years of study and thought and learning. As a new Christian I would guarantee you that would be looking down to see if there was something that would catch me or do some serious questioning about why. I wouldn't lack faith in God as existing but faith in who He was. Faith is not all or nothing and it isn't blind.


So, why do you think that you have to defend your faith?
 
2013-08-19 06:45:01 PM

walkingtall: but...you ignore the corrupting influences within your own chosen faith. just in this thread alone you blinded yourself to the very real dangers and influences of prosperity gospel preachers on evangelical christianity.

It has been rejected. It isn't accepted or liked among conservative Christian churches. About every other Sunday my pastor gets angry that prosperity gospel is out there. Every church I know of rejects it. What more can we do? It has no biblical authority. It is out there because people want to believe it. It is easy. It is convenient. People have always done crap like that.


Anecdotal stories do not equate into data/evidence.  Do you need a list of active mega-churches that beg for money every Sunday/Wednesday on the free cable channels between 11-19 and promise that prosperity will come your way if you just send them some money today?
 
2013-08-19 06:45:51 PM

walkingtall: but...you ignore the corrupting influences within your own chosen faith. just in this thread alone you blinded yourself to the very real dangers and influences of prosperity gospel preachers on evangelical christianity.

It has been rejected. It isn't accepted or liked among conservative Christian churches. About every other Sunday my pastor gets angry that prosperity gospel is out there. Every church I know of rejects it. What more can we do? It has no biblical authority. It is out there because people want to believe it. It is easy. It is convenient. People have always done crap like that.


Could you please point me to citations of mainstream Christian Pastors actually denouncing the prosperity gospel?
 
2013-08-19 06:46:19 PM

walkingtall: but...you ignore the corrupting influences within your own chosen faith. just in this thread alone you blinded yourself to the very real dangers and influences of prosperity gospel preachers on evangelical christianity.

It has been rejected. It isn't accepted or liked among conservative Christian churches. About every other Sunday my pastor gets angry that prosperity gospel is out there. Every church I know of rejects it. What more can we do? It has no biblical authority. It is out there because people want to believe it. It is easy. It is convenient. People have always done crap like that.


you could fight it.  you could stop electing GOP politicians who follow prosperity gospel theology.  you could cut off the flow of money into the megachurches and corporations who keep pushing a message that brutally rapes your religious ideology and whores it out for to the highest bidder in the marketplace.
 
2013-08-19 06:47:59 PM

Infernalist: So, why do you think that you have to defend your faith?


I suppose I don't HAVE to. Most Christians don't. They simply ride with whatever wave they find themselves on. Keep quiet and keep your head down. That is simply not who I am. We are called upon biblically to answer questions and be knowledgeable about our faith. Christianity hides nothing. Everything we believe is in a book anyone can read. There is no secret committee debating specifics that aren't for lay people to understand. The Bible is and always has been hotly debated by every corner of humanity since it was laid on paper. That is why I defend the faith.
 
2013-08-19 06:48:56 PM

Tigger: draypresct: ArcadianRefugee: Infernalist: That whole mythology gets 'really' interesting when you find out that Ahura Mazda had a son named Mithras that came to earth in the flesh, had a dozen disciples, died and went to hell to fight Ahriman for the souls of mankind.

And then he rose from the dead.

And, as I understand it, the mythology predates Christianity by about a thousand years or so.

[i.imgur.com image 640x729]

I really don't think the god of wine was "King of Kings" or "Alpha and Omega". I also don't think he was born of a virgin.

Citations, please?

Well if Jesus was only the politically expedient combination of four local pre-existing religious figures not five then that... well that doesnt' actually change anything.


Really? If I show that 1 of the 5 is BS you're still ready to take the other 4 at face value?

I didn't check the rest, and I certainly never said that the other four were accurate.

If they're willing to make things up for Dionysus (he's only the King of Kings to alcoholics), my guess is they're making the whole thing up.
 
2013-08-19 06:50:47 PM

draypresct: Tigger: draypresct: ArcadianRefugee: Infernalist: That whole mythology gets 'really' interesting when you find out that Ahura Mazda had a son named Mithras that came to earth in the flesh, had a dozen disciples, died and went to hell to fight Ahriman for the souls of mankind.

And then he rose from the dead.

And, as I understand it, the mythology predates Christianity by about a thousand years or so.

[i.imgur.com image 640x729]

I really don't think the god of wine was "King of Kings" or "Alpha and Omega". I also don't think he was born of a virgin.

Citations, please?

Well if Jesus was only the politically expedient combination of four local pre-existing religious figures not five then that... well that doesnt' actually change anything.

Really? If I show that 1 of the 5 is BS you're still ready to take the other 4 at face value?

I didn't check the rest, and I certainly never said that the other four were accurate.

If they're willing to make things up for Dionysus (he's only the King of Kings to alcoholics), my guess is they're making the whole thing up.


If Jesus just turned out to be some dude who had a really good idea on how to treat yourself, the world and everyone around you....would it really matter if he wasn't divine?

Would it really ruin his message of peace, love and forgiveness if he wasn't actually the Son of God?

Not to me.
 
2013-08-19 06:51:04 PM
One study quoted in the book found that 50 of the 260 largest churches in America promote the prosperity gospel.

So only 19% of the largest Christian churches preach the Prosperity Gospel and that is not counting televangelists.
 
2013-08-19 06:52:25 PM

spongeboob: Could you please point me to citations of mainstream Christian Pastors actually denouncing the prosperity gospel?


Google prosperity gospel. You will get scathing articles about it.
 
2013-08-19 06:54:13 PM

walkingtall: Infernalist: So, why do you think that you have to defend your faith?

I suppose I don't HAVE to. Most Christians don't. They simply ride with whatever wave they find themselves on. Keep quiet and keep your head down. That is simply not who I am. We are called upon biblically to answer questions and be knowledgeable about our faith. Christianity hides nothing. Everything we believe is in a book anyone can read. There is no secret committee debating specifics that aren't for lay people to understand. The Bible is and always has been hotly debated by every corner of humanity since it was laid on paper. That is why I defend the faith.


Why?  Faith isn't something that can be torn down by reason and logic or debate.

It just IS.  You believe it.  It's faith.  You don't reason with faith, you accept it and you move on.

It's an unassailable element.   It can not be defended because it cannot be attacked.
 
2013-08-19 06:55:30 PM

walkingtall: spongeboob: Could you please point me to citations of mainstream Christian Pastors actually denouncing the prosperity gospel?

Google prosperity gospel. You will get scathing articles about it.


and tons more articles and links that say Christ hated the weak and poor....

look - if you don't want to face up to the very ugly underbelly of your religion that's fine.  but you'd better come up with a better way to deal with uncomfortable questions than trying to sweep it all under the rug.  that ain't gonna cut it.
 
2013-08-19 06:55:54 PM
One study quoted in the book found that 50 of the 260 largest churches in America promote the prosperity gospel.

Your own link shows that conservative Christian scholars and churches completely reject prosperity gospel. The entire article is about how dangerous it is.
 
2013-08-19 06:56:39 PM
Christians that tithe with the idea that god will reward them with riches are followers of Mammon and are in for one HELL of a surprise if Heaven and Judgment Day is real.
 
2013-08-19 06:58:56 PM

walkingtall: One study quoted in the book found that 50 of the 260 largest churches in America promote the prosperity gospel.

Your own link shows that conservative Christian scholars and churches completely reject prosperity gospel. The entire article is about how dangerous it is.


50 out of 260 is 20%.  That's a lot of churches and Christians worshiping a pagan god.
 
2013-08-19 06:59:30 PM

walkingtall: One study quoted in the book found that 50 of the 260 largest churches in America promote the prosperity gospel.

Your own link shows that conservative Christian scholars and churches completely reject prosperity gospel. The entire article is about how dangerous it is.


because it IS dangerous, and you don't seem to want to confront that reality.

*sigh*
 
2013-08-19 06:59:32 PM

Infernalist: Why? Faith isn't something that can be torn down by reason and logic or debate.

It just IS. You believe it. It's faith. You don't reason with faith, you accept it and you move on.

It's an unassailable element.


That isn't true. There are good logical reasons to believe that God exists, Jesus walked the earth and was who He says He was. Even though I put my faith in the truth of those things because they are ultimately improvable in concrete terms that faith is not blind. You can have blind faith but it isn't a very smart thing to do. God certainly doesn't ask it of us.
 
2013-08-19 07:00:47 PM

walkingtall: Infernalist: Why? Faith isn't something that can be torn down by reason and logic or debate.

It just IS. You believe it. It's faith. You don't reason with faith, you accept it and you move on.

It's an unassailable element.

That isn't true. There are good logical reasons to believe that God exists, Jesus walked the earth and was who He says He was. Even though I put my faith in the truth of those things because they are ultimately improvable in concrete terms that faith is not blind. You can have blind faith but it isn't a very smart thing to do. God certainly doesn't ask it of us.


do you accept the existence of pagan gods and spirits then?  by your logic, you essentially must do so.
 
2013-08-19 07:01:13 PM

Weaver95: because it IS dangerous, and you don't seem to want to confront that reality.

*sigh*


I am not a proponent of prosperity gospel. I have called it heresy myself in this thread. It is bad and dangerous. Im not sure what you are looking for as far as a rejection. Calling something heresy is pretty much it there Weaver.
 
2013-08-19 07:02:54 PM

walkingtall: Weaver95: because it IS dangerous, and you don't seem to want to confront that reality.

*sigh*

I am not a proponent of prosperity gospel. I have called it heresy myself in this thread. It is bad and dangerous. Im not sure what you are looking for as far as a rejection. Calling something heresy is pretty much it there Weaver.


but you don't seem to want to fight against it or reclaim your faith from it's influence.
 
2013-08-19 07:03:14 PM

walkingtall: Infernalist: Why? Faith isn't something that can be torn down by reason and logic or debate.

It just IS. You believe it. It's faith. You don't reason with faith, you accept it and you move on.

It's an unassailable element.

That isn't true. There are good logical reasons to believe that God exists, Jesus walked the earth and was who He says He was. Even though I put my faith in the truth of those things because they are ultimately improvable in concrete terms that faith is not blind. You can have blind faith but it isn't a very smart thing to do. God certainly doesn't ask it of us.


If you need proof that Jesus was real, then you're not taking it on faith.  Faith requires no proof.  It's belief.  If you're treating it as a case of "Well, here's why I think God is real and that Jesus was the Son of God" and you bust out reality-based reasons like historical documents and fossil records backing up the flood and Creation 'science', then you're missing the entire farking point.

Faith just IS.  Evidence just doesn't enter into the equation.  Evidence is the realm of science and reality.  Faith is the realm of the spiritual.
 
2013-08-19 07:03:57 PM

Infernalist: Christians that tithe with the idea that god will reward them with riches are followers of Mammon and are in for one HELL of a surprise if Heaven and Judgment Day is real.


Ok. I agree with that. That is very foundational Christian doctrine that we are saved by the blood of Christ alone and not what we do. Are you claiming that isn't theology? Do you even know what Christian theology states? Not some minor point but core baseline Christian beliefs? I see an awful lot of strawman beating going on.
 
2013-08-19 07:08:02 PM

walkingtall: spongeboob: Could you please point me to citations of mainstream Christian Pastors actually denouncing the prosperity gospel?

Google prosperity gospel. You will get scathing articles about it.


That is not how it works you claim Prosperity Gospel is not Mainstream you prove above I posted link for 50/260 of the largest Churches in America preach the Prosperity Gospel, that is 19% in America and here are some other quotes with citations


Some have estimated that up to 90 percent of those claiming to be Christians in Africa are of the prosperity gospel variety.
From the same article
Joel Osteen has become a household name due to his incredible success.  He "pastors" the largest church in America , Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas, which in 2008 boasted average weekend atten dance of 43,500, almost double that of its nearest competitor.[5]  Osteen took the helm of Lakewood Church in 1999 upon the death of his father, John.  John Osteen was openly a prosperity gospel preacher who founded Lakewood in 1959 and had built it into a 6000 member church before his son replaced him.  Joel, who until that point had given leadership to the television ministry of Lakewood and had preached only once before, was thrust into the pulpit and immediately the church began to explode.  Today Lakewood services are broadcast in over 100 countries, Joel has written two multi-million seller books, and he, along with his wife, mother, and numerous musicians from Lakewood, travel throughout the world offering an event they call "A Night of Hope."  While most churches struggle to find and keep members, people are willing to purchase $15 tickets to attend "A Night of Hope" and the auditoriums are usually packed.


 Pastor T.D. Jakes and his church, the Potter's House, were legendary.
The non-denominational church in west Dallas boasts a membership of 30,000 - and any missionary who had tracted a middle-class or lower-income neighborhood within a 50-mile radius of the enormous worship center had heard plenty about Jakes and his electrifying sermons......He didn't just quote Malachi 3:10 - about the "windows of heaven" being opened to faithful tithe-payers - he ensured his followers that the scripturally promised blessings would be financial: a better job, a new car, a higher salary, etc.
So 30,000 members is marginal non-mainstream, above is a FreeRepublic link so for anyone who wont click FreeRepublic don't.

December 2010 so the numbers may be out of date
As nonsensical as that sounds, recent polls show that 17 percent of Christians believe in the prosperity gospel. Sixty-one percent of Americans in general say they believe God wants them to prosper. - See more at: http://www.womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=291#sthash.CKUoI522.dpuf
 
2013-08-19 07:08:23 PM

Infernalist: Faith just IS. Evidence just doesn't enter into the equation. Evidence is the realm of science and reality. Faith is the realm of the spiritual.


That is false. Science, as practiced by human beings, is chock full of faith. Humans have a hole that faith in something seems to fill. What that something is is where you get to choose. Most of anything is believed through faith. Very little is actually provable in a concrete sense. That is more of a philosophy debate. My faith isn't blind. I don't like blind faith and if belief in God and Jesus could only be done blindly I wouldn't believe it. Take that as you want.
 
2013-08-19 07:09:26 PM

zeroman987: Why does it have to? He is clearly saying that his ideas would be so revolutionary that it would turn even family members against each other. Look at where it is found in Luke, not Matthew. He talks about a fire he is going to start, and how he wishes there was kindling already lit. It is pretty clear. His ideas are like fire; as simple as it sounds, treating others how you would like to be treated is painful and difficult. Although I guess just taking quotes out of context without thinking about them to ridicule the beliefs of others is easier than trying to engage in the material. (While as a non-believer I don't believe anyone should be forced to read anything they don't want to, if someone is talking about how Jesus is full of crap, they should at least engage themselves on the subject or remain silent.)


First of all, I _never_ said Jesus is full of crap, and I really do not believe I was ridiculing Christian beliefs. Do you consider CS Lewis as ridiculing Christian beliefs when he argued against the idea that Jesus as basically a nice guy who said some wise things?

I was making fun of the idea that Jesus "basically told the world to be good to each other." Can you provide the specific context you're referring to that turns "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." into "basically . . . be good to each other"? I'd prefer text somewhere close to the original quote, if you don't mind. If you have to cherry-pick quotes from entirely different books, well, you're going to have to make a really good argument to convince me.


zeroman987: . . . when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. . . . And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. ... And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

So a bad fig tree is equivalent to flipping out? Do you think that Jesus did this because he was angry? It sounds like you are ascribing your own pettiness to him and completely miss the point of the story.



It wasn't a bad fig tree. Did you miss the part where the text specifically mentions that it was not time for figs yet?  Jesus cursed and killed a fig tree. That's the "flipping out" I was referring to.


The fig tree showed signs that it was bearing fruit, but wasn't actually bearing fruit. Jesus did this to show his disciples that saying "good" things was not enough, you had to do good things as well. Jesus was telling them that he can see through the bullcrap and he knows whether you have actually accepted him (bearing good fruit), independent of putting up the all the signs (the leaves), even if you cannot.

The fig tree actually ties into the money changers because the money changers were trying to drum up business by associating themselves with the temple. They had leaves, but they were bearing no fruit.


The tree was deceptive??? That is a completely different interpretation of the fig tree text than I've ever seen before. Where did it say (or even imply) that the fig tree showed signs of bearing fruit? Just because it had leaves? Are you aware of the fact that many trees have leaves during times when they have no fruit? The text specifically mentioned that there was no reason to expect that it had fruit!

/Apparently killing a tree (which the text certainly implies Jesus did) = seeing through an evil tree's BS?
 
2013-08-19 07:10:47 PM

walkingtall: Infernalist: Christians that tithe with the idea that god will reward them with riches are followers of Mammon and are in for one HELL of a surprise if Heaven and Judgment Day is real.

Ok. I agree with that. That is very foundational Christian doctrine that we are saved by the blood of Christ alone and not what we do. Are you claiming that isn't theology? Do you even know what Christian theology states? Not some minor point but core baseline Christian beliefs? I see an awful lot of strawman beating going on.


What I know and what I see is that Christianity, on a whole, has drifted from its core principles of acts of faith, charity, forgiveness, acceptance and not judging others.

Christianity has become about wealth, prosperity, being holier than thou and, god help us all, a political statement.

Christianity should be about disdaining wealth and possessions, acts of kindness, helping others, feeding and clothing the poor, helping the sick, visiting the forgotten and disdained...Christianity should be humble and quiet, leading by example and showing the world a pristine faith that does good things because that's the right thing to do and Jesus would approve.  Real Jesus, not GOP Jesus.

Christians should not celebrate in gold-plated churches that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Its preachers and leaders should not be filthy rich with fancy cars.

This is why the non-religious portion of America mocks Christianity.  Because they spend so much time talking about doing good things and charity and helping...and all we see is the leaders getting richer, getting arrested for drug use/buying, and getting busted for illegalities.  All they see is a corrupted Church that cares only about enriching itself and justifying that enrichment by clinging to the obscenity of a doctrine that God wants you to be rich.

No.  No, he really really doesn't.  He wants you to set aside your riches and Follow Him.

I used to be a Christian and I used to think that I left the Church.  In truth, I didn't leave the Church, the Church left me.
 
2013-08-19 07:12:38 PM

Bloody William: walkingtall: The Devil knows the Bible better than any biblical scholar that has lived or will ever live.

Best excuse against studying the Bible ever.

Here's a fun experiment: show me in the bible where the devil actually is "the devil" as you see him. How do you picture the devil? What passages of the Bible reflect this against artistic and literary depictions of the dark and middle ages, and after? The serpent in the Bible is inferred to be the devil according to some Christians, but it is not explicitly said that the serpent is the, or any, devil. "Lucifer" appears no-farking-where in the old testament, and "Ha-Satan" is simply "the adversary," and is identified as an indefinite opposition twice as often as it is identified as a specific force (in Job and Zechariah).

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing religious people that he's at fault, giving them an excuse to not examine themselves and their choices.


This bears repeating, again and again.
 
2013-08-19 07:13:32 PM

walkingtall: Infernalist: Faith just IS. Evidence just doesn't enter into the equation. Evidence is the realm of science and reality. Faith is the realm of the spiritual.

That is false. Science, as practiced by human beings, is chock full of faith. Humans have a hole that faith in something seems to fill. What that something is is where you get to choose. Most of anything is believed through faith. Very little is actually provable in a concrete sense. That is more of a philosophy debate. My faith isn't blind. I don't like blind faith and if belief in God and Jesus could only be done blindly I wouldn't believe it. Take that as you want.


Science that requires faith is not science.
 
2013-08-19 07:13:37 PM

walkingtall: One study quoted in the book found that 50 of the 260 largest churches in America promote the prosperity gospel.

Your own link shows that conservative Christian scholars and churches completely reject prosperity gospel. The entire article is about how dangerous it is.


My link shows that two Christian Scholars reject the prosperity gospel and most churches do, it does not show universal disdain for the Prosperity Gospel again 50 of 260 of the largest Churches out right teach the prosperity gospel.
 
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