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(Salon)   Anti-abortion activists: "We wouldn't murder you if you wouldn't murder babies"   (salon.com) divider line 416
    More: Dumbass, George Tiller, tillers, gun violence, police escort, carrying a gun  
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2914 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Aug 2013 at 3:12 PM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-19 11:49:58 AM
"Coalition for life" huh? What a sick euphemism.
 
2013-08-19 11:59:12 AM
Pretty sure "Thou Shalt Not Kill" doesn't have exceptions, pro-lifers.
 
2013-08-19 11:59:56 AM
I wonder if Kansas has a "stand your ground" law. They're all but flat out calling on prolifers to murder clinic staff.

Again.

I know if I was escorting patients at this clinic, I'd have a sidearm.
 
2013-08-19 12:00:06 PM
<herp>  Killing one abortion doctor can save the lives of millions of unborn babies! </derp>
 
2013-08-19 12:00:31 PM
So since fetuses aren't babies, we're all good now, right?
 
2013-08-19 12:02:30 PM

Aarontology: Pretty sure "Thou Shalt Not Kill" doesn't have exceptions, pro-lifers.


Actually, the orgiginal translation would be something like "Thou shalt not kill without good reason" or something. This is evidenced in the old testament itself when Moses proceeds to put the calf worshipers (his own people) to the sword as soon as he's off the mountain.
 
2013-08-19 12:04:19 PM

gilgigamesh: I wonder if Kansas has a "stand your ground" law. They're all but flat out calling on prolifers to murder clinic staff.

Again.

I know if I was escorting patients at this clinic, I'd have a sidearm.


There is no duty to retreat under Kansas law and it's a CC State.
 
2013-08-19 12:24:32 PM
And whoever interviewed them took that answer seriously instead of laughing right in their delusional faces?

Let's stop allowing these people to believe they have a point.
 
2013-08-19 12:27:24 PM

gilgigamesh: I wonder if Kansas has a "stand your ground" law. They're all but flat out calling on prolifers to murder clinic staff.

Again.

I know if I was escorting patients at this clinic, I'd have a sidearm.


Well, not after the Kansas legislature and governor pass a law outlawing the carrying of firearms inside abortion clinics.

Sure, you'll feel safe inside.  But what about all them fundamentalists outside with guns?  They know you ain't got one.
 
2013-08-19 12:29:47 PM

ginandbacon: So since fetuses aren't babies, we're all good now, right?


That's the fundamental disagreement, and it's unresolvable. (Modern medicine doesn't help because of how it can save profoundly premature babies.)
 
2013-08-19 12:30:14 PM
If someone outside a clinic kills someone inside, it's not the fault of the guy outside - it's the fault of the dead person.

Can we not extent this logic and personhood to the unborn?  That way, any time a baby is murdered, it's not the fault of the doctor of the mother - after all, the kid drove them to it.
 
2013-08-19 12:31:19 PM

Voiceofreason01: gilgigamesh: I wonder if Kansas has a "stand your ground" law. They're all but flat out calling on prolifers to murder clinic staff.

Again.

I know if I was escorting patients at this clinic, I'd have a sidearm.

There is no duty to retreat under Kansas law and it's a CC State.


I believe that even in duty to retreat states, that duty is obviated when the perp has a firearm.
 
2013-08-19 12:35:40 PM

vygramul: (Modern medicine doesn't help because of how it can save profoundly premature babies.)


No it can't. And again, they aren't babies.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-19 12:36:47 PM

vygramul: There is no duty to retreat under Kansas law and it's a CC State.

I believe that even in duty to retreat states, that duty is obviated when the perp has a firearm.


You can't outrun a bullet.
 
2013-08-19 12:45:42 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: And whoever interviewed them took that answer seriously instead of laughing right in their delusional faces?

Let's stop allowing these people to believe they have a point.


Or stop allowing them to be.

Don't we have a DHS? Aren't they now an admitted terrorist group if they said they're gonna kill people? Zip ties, hoods, and black vans. Play this by the numbers.
 
2013-08-19 12:46:50 PM
When a woman gets infected by a man, it's no one else's business when it comes to the course of treatment she decides upon.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-19 12:47:14 PM

doglover: Don't we have a DHS? Aren't they now an admitted terrorist group if they said they're gonna kill people? Zip ties, hoods, and black vans. Play this by the numbers.


No, they have political support.  It would be an outrage.  If they were Black Panthers or Muslims or something like that......
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-19 12:48:10 PM

Marcus Aurelius: When a woman gets infected by a man, it's no one else's business when it comes to the course of treatment she decides upon.


That sort of STD can be a pain.  Especially the teen years.
 
2013-08-19 12:53:08 PM

vpb: doglover: Don't we have a DHS? Aren't they now an admitted terrorist group if they said they're gonna kill people? Zip ties, hoods, and black vans. Play this by the numbers.

No, they have political support.  It would be an outrage.  If they were Black Panthers or Muslims or something like that......


Pretty much. There are some pretty conservative areas in Sedgwick county(Wichita) and the Governor and State Legislature are very Republican.
 
2013-08-19 01:02:21 PM

ginandbacon: vygramul: (Modern medicine doesn't help because of how it can save profoundly premature babies.)

No it can't. And again, they aren't babies.


And again, that's the point of contention, and it's not resolvable.

And yes, modern medicine can save premature babies that only 20 years ago didn't have a chance. So long as medicine pushes the frontier back, it reinforces the opinion that fetuses are babies. If you could conclusively demonstrate otherwise, there wouldn't be a debate. (Well, there's always the flat-earth and time-cube people, but you know what I mean.)
 
2013-08-19 01:02:56 PM

vpb: vygramul: There is no duty to retreat under Kansas law and it's a CC State.

I believe that even in duty to retreat states, that duty is obviated when the perp has a firearm.

You can't outrun a bullet.


Indeed.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-19 01:11:50 PM

vygramul: And yes, modern medicine can save premature babies that only 20 years ago didn't have a chance. So long as medicine pushes the frontier back, it reinforces the opinion that fetuses are babies. If you could conclusively demonstrate otherwise, there wouldn't be a debate. (Well, there's always the flat-earth and time-cube people, but you know what I mean.)


No, but the contention isn't over where to draw the line.  The anti-abortion people pretty much all draw it at conception.  I don't think that there is any way you can make a case that a fertilized egg is a baby.  That's like claiming that an acorn is an oak tree.

That's not a question of biology, that's simply a religious opinion.
 
2013-08-19 01:14:37 PM

vygramul: ginandbacon: vygramul: (Modern medicine doesn't help because of how it can save profoundly premature babies.)

No it can't. And again, they aren't babies.

And again, that's the point of contention, and it's not resolvable.

And yes, modern medicine can save premature babies that only 20 years ago didn't have a chance. So long as medicine pushes the frontier back, it reinforces the opinion that fetuses are babies. If you could conclusively demonstrate otherwise, there wouldn't be a debate. (Well, there's always the flat-earth and time-cube people, but you know what I mean.)


They can believe all they want about the thing growing in my body, the fact of the matter is that any actual action regarding the thing in my body stops at... wait for it... me.

They can believe all they want about it, that doesn't stop it from being mine and mine alone.
 
2013-08-19 01:21:57 PM

vpb: No, but the contention isn't over where to draw the line.  The anti-abortion people pretty much all draw it at conception.  I don't think that there is any way you can make a case that a fertilized egg is a baby.  That's like claiming that an acorn is an oak tree.

That's not a question of biology, that's simply a religious opinion.


There's also a gradient of opinion on abortion. There are people who are ok with the day-after pill but are appalled at the idea of third-trimester abortions unless the mother's life is at risk.

The opinions on whether a fetus is a person are often not informed by any objective notions on either side. There is discomfort on both sides of the argument with the extreme positions. There are pro-choice people who are not comfortable with an abortion the day before birth without a compelling reason. There are pro-life people who are not comfortable saying the day-after pill is the same as murder.
 
2013-08-19 01:25:52 PM

vygramul: ginandbacon: vygramul: (Modern medicine doesn't help because of how it can save profoundly premature babies.)

No it can't. And again, they aren't babies.

And again, that's the point of contention, and it's not resolvable.

And yes, modern medicine can save premature babies that only 20 years ago didn't have a chance. So long as medicine pushes the frontier back, it reinforces the opinion that fetuses are babies. If you could conclusively demonstrate otherwise, there wouldn't be a debate. (Well, there's always the flat-earth and time-cube people, but you know what I mean.)


Viability has basically been the same since we figured out ventilation and developed vaccines for RSV. "Profoundly premature" fetuses still die. You don't get to any real chances of survival until 26 weeks, by which point, no one is even having an abortion unless there is some horrible fetal abnormality. Only one percent of abortions occur after 21 weeks. Since we haven't been able to impact viability under 24 weeks at all for almost 2 decades, I have NO farking idea what you think you are talking about.

I am also remembering now that I am pretty sure you show up in every abortion thread spouting the same lies and misinformation.

I need to start farkying people.
 
2013-08-19 01:30:17 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: vygramul: ginandbacon: vygramul: (Modern medicine doesn't help because of how it can save profoundly premature babies.)

No it can't. And again, they aren't babies.

And again, that's the point of contention, and it's not resolvable.

And yes, modern medicine can save premature babies that only 20 years ago didn't have a chance. So long as medicine pushes the frontier back, it reinforces the opinion that fetuses are babies. If you could conclusively demonstrate otherwise, there wouldn't be a debate. (Well, there's always the flat-earth and time-cube people, but you know what I mean.)

They can believe all they want about the thing growing in my body, the fact of the matter is that any actual action regarding the thing in my body stops at... wait for it... me.

They can believe all they want about it, that doesn't stop it from being mine and mine alone.


I'm with you, Sister. But people also can't be allowed to flat out lie for the sake of concern trolling either. And yeah: my uterus, my business.
 
2013-08-19 01:32:40 PM

ginandbacon: vygramul: ginandbacon: vygramul: (Modern medicine doesn't help because of how it can save profoundly premature babies.)

No it can't. And again, they aren't babies.

And again, that's the point of contention, and it's not resolvable.

And yes, modern medicine can save premature babies that only 20 years ago didn't have a chance. So long as medicine pushes the frontier back, it reinforces the opinion that fetuses are babies. If you could conclusively demonstrate otherwise, there wouldn't be a debate. (Well, there's always the flat-earth and time-cube people, but you know what I mean.)

Viability has basically been the same since we figured out ventilation and developed vaccines for RSV. "Profoundly premature" fetuses still die. You don't get to any real chances of survival until 26 weeks, by which point, no one is even having an abortion unless there is some horrible fetal abnormality. Only one percent of abortions occur after 21 weeks. Since we haven't been able to impact viability under 24 weeks at all for almost 2 decades, I have NO farking idea what you think you are talking about.

I am also remembering now that I am pretty sure you show up in every abortion thread spouting the same lies and misinformation.

I need to start farkying people.


Maybe it's because hospitals haven't been equipped for 20 years. Fairfax hospital, hardly a low-tech country bumpkin hospital even 20 years ago, had told my brother his son would have died 20 years ago. So maybe they were wrong. I'm willing to concede that it's been possible for that long. But I would be surprised if the mortality rate hasn't fallen.

And "profoundly" is not exactly a precise term. I don't know what YOU mean by profoundly, but a child that is 26 weeks old at birth to me is pretty farking profound.
 
2013-08-19 01:32:54 PM
So, can we finally stop the charade of calling these people "pro-life" now?
 
2013-08-19 01:33:15 PM

ginandbacon: I am also remembering now that I am pretty sure you show up in every abortion thread spouting the same lies and misinformation.


You're also making shiat up if that's what you remember.
 
2013-08-19 01:34:10 PM

FloydA: So, can we finally stop the charade of calling these people "pro-life" now?


I prefer the term pro-birth.
 
2013-08-19 01:35:17 PM

FloydA: So, can we finally stop the charade of calling these people "pro-life" now?


Some of them are true to that term, some are not. But really, it's a politically-motivated choice, just like pro-choice is. There's really no reason not to call someone what they want to be called. I suppose it might be helpful if all one wants is an ideologically satisfying hostile confrontation, but if one wishes to convince people, pissing them off by calling them names isn't going to help.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-19 01:43:58 PM

vygramul: Some of them are true to that term, some are not. But really, it's a politically-motivated choice, just like pro-choice is. There's really no reason not to call someone what they want to be called. I suppose it might be helpful if all one wants is an ideologically satisfying hostile confrontation, but if one wishes to convince people, pissing them off by calling them names isn't going to help.


I think the pro-choice position is more about personal and religious freedom than politics, and I'm pretty sure that most of the anti-abortion types are looking for a confrontation.  They want to establish their dominance.  They generally don't seem to care too much for life in my experience.
 
2013-08-19 01:45:25 PM

vygramul: 26 weeks old at birth to me is pretty farking profound.


That's third trimester. Not at all profoundly premature. You should do a little research before you start lecturing people who know more than you on what viability is.

vygramul: But I would be surprised if the mortality rate hasn't fallen.


It hasn't. We have a wall that we have hit. We improved outcomes for fetuses at and after 26 weeks because of (as I said before) ventilation and vaccinating for RSV. BTW, I worked in biotech and one of the fun bits of research I got to do was on viability.

vygramul: ginandbacon: I am also remembering now that I am pretty sure you show up in every abortion thread spouting the same lies and misinformation.

You're also making shiat up if that's what you remember.


Then I apologize. You have dodged the point I brought up about when most abortions occur, as well as why a tiny percentage occur later. It makes you look a little trolly, frankly.
 
2013-08-19 01:48:09 PM

vpb: vygramul: Some of them are true to that term, some are not. But really, it's a politically-motivated choice, just like pro-choice is. There's really no reason not to call someone what they want to be called. I suppose it might be helpful if all one wants is an ideologically satisfying hostile confrontation, but if one wishes to convince people, pissing them off by calling them names isn't going to help.

I think the pro-choice position is more about personal and religious freedom than politics, and I'm pretty sure that most of the anti-abortion types are looking for a confrontation.  They want to establish their dominance.  They generally don't seem to care too much for life in my experience.


A lot of people are unwilling to try to work out their differences, especially if they're religious.
 
2013-08-19 01:49:23 PM
And just FYI, fetuses aren't even resuscitated at 22 weeks since there is no way they can survive and thrive. That's one week after the overwhelming majority of abortions take place.
 
2013-08-19 01:58:53 PM

ginandbacon: vygramul: 26 weeks old at birth to me is pretty farking profound.

That's third trimester. Not at all profoundly premature. You should do a little research before you start lecturing people who know more than you on what viability is.


There's a medical definition for "profound" in this case? If so, I am unaware of it and the use of the phrase was not intended to convey a technical meaning.

vygramul: But I would be surprised if the mortality rate hasn't fallen.

It hasn't. We have a wall that we have hit. We improved outcomes for fetuses at and after 26 weeks because of (as I said before) ventilation and vaccinating for RSV. BTW, I worked in biotech and one of the fun bits of research I got to do was on viability.


Like I said - that's not what my nephew's doctor said about his premature status. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it's not because I'm intentionally spreading lies but repeating what we were told in the ICU (which is a scary place for parents).

vygramul: ginandbacon: I am also remembering now that I am pretty sure you show up in every abortion thread spouting the same lies and misinformation.

You're also making shiat up if that's what you remember.

Then I apologize. You have dodged the point I brought up about when most abortions occur, as well as why a tiny percentage occur later. It makes you look a little trolly, frankly.


I'm not trying to dodge it. If it helps, I am aware of the UN research demonstrating that abortion rates don't fall where it is illegal, suggesting abortion demand is highly inelastic and that making them illegal means more lives will be lost than saved even if one were to define life as starting at conception. The pro-life position should be one of support and offering alternatives rather than trying to ban the procedure and walk away thinking you did good.

/Special thanks to Theaetetus for the UN study
 
2013-08-19 02:03:12 PM
Pro lifers are a very strange and paradoxical bunch. They kill in the name of preserving life and restrict the rights of others in the name of freedom. I find that a most curious way to live ones life.
 
2013-08-19 02:05:19 PM

vygramul: Like I said - that's not what my nephew's doctor said about his premature status. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it's not because I'm intentionally spreading lies but repeating what we were told in the ICU (which is a scary place for parents).


How far along was your nephew?

Also--you are extremely lucky since male fetuses develop much more slowly and have worse outcomes. I'm glad he got through it. It's terrible to see a family lose a child they very much wanted.
 
2013-08-19 02:10:54 PM
Congratulations, you are officially a terrorist organization.
 
2013-08-19 02:11:47 PM

vygramul: There's also a gradient of opinion on abortion. There are people who are ok with the day-after pill but are appalled at the idea of third-trimester abortions unless the mother's life is at risk.


I am pretty certain that that covers everyone.
NO ONE in favor of abortion and a women's right to choose is in favor of late term abortions because the crazy biatch changed her mind.
Late is completely illegal except in case of serious risk to the mother's life.

Women who have a late term abortion because they change their minds should be beaten like seal cubs.
 
2013-08-19 02:12:11 PM

brap: Congratulations, you are officially a terrorist organization.


Nonsense! Only brown people can be terrorists. The GOP said so!
 
2013-08-19 02:12:54 PM

Weaver95: Pro lifers are a very strange and paradoxical bunch. They kill in the name of preserving life and restrict the rights of others in the name of freedom. I find that a most curious way to live ones life.


You left out the part where they only care about the fetus. Once it becomes a baby, they are ok with it not having food or healthcare.
 
2013-08-19 02:13:50 PM

namatad: vygramul: There's also a gradient of opinion on abortion. There are people who are ok with the day-after pill but are appalled at the idea of third-trimester abortions unless the mother's life is at risk.

I am pretty certain that that covers everyone.
NO ONE in favor of abortion and a women's right to choose is in favor of late term abortions because the crazy biatch changed her mind.
Late is completely illegal except in case of serious risk to the mother's life.

Women who have a late term abortion because they change their minds should be beaten like seal cubs.


But how can one justify being opposed to a late-term abortion if the fetus is not a baby until birth?
 
2013-08-19 02:13:57 PM

namatad: Weaver95: Pro lifers are a very strange and paradoxical bunch. They kill in the name of preserving life and restrict the rights of others in the name of freedom. I find that a most curious way to live ones life.

You left out the part where they only care about the fetus. Once it becomes a baby, they are ok with it not having food or healthcare.


I thought that part was obvious. They hate you once you are born...but they'll murder others to make sure you get out of the womb.
 
2013-08-19 02:14:55 PM

Weaver95: brap: Congratulations, you are officially a terrorist organization.

Nonsense! Only brown people can be terrorists. The GOP said so!


welcome to the american taliban
 
2013-08-19 02:17:23 PM

vygramul: namatad: vygramul: There's also a gradient of opinion on abortion. There are people who are ok with the day-after pill but are appalled at the idea of third-trimester abortions unless the mother's life is at risk.

I am pretty certain that that covers everyone.
NO ONE in favor of abortion and a women's right to choose is in favor of late term abortions because the crazy biatch changed her mind.
Late is completely illegal except in case of serious risk to the mother's life.

Women who have a late term abortion because they change their minds should be beaten like seal cubs.

But how can one justify being opposed to a late-term abortion if the fetus is not a baby until birth?


society has always included the concept of viability in its laws. when you killed a mother who was gravid, you were guilty of killing her unborn. when you killed a women, who was 1 week pregnant and no one knew, you were jsut guilty of killing the mother.

TBH - I am in favor of retroactive abortion of people who are trolls pretending to be that dumb. but go ahead.
 
2013-08-19 02:18:31 PM
Never been a big fan of vigilante justice myself.  Just make abortion illegal so they kill themselves with complications from their coat hangar abortions.  Probably more painful that way too.
 
2013-08-19 02:20:16 PM

serial_crusher: Never been a big fan of vigilante justice myself.  Just make abortion illegal so they kill themselves with complications from their coat hangar abortions.  Probably more painful that way too.


It's like you aren't even trying anymore...that was just very lazy and sloppy.
 
2013-08-19 02:20:29 PM

vygramul: namatad: vygramul: There's also a gradient of opinion on abortion. There are people who are ok with the day-after pill but are appalled at the idea of third-trimester abortions unless the mother's life is at risk.

I am pretty certain that that covers everyone.
NO ONE in favor of abortion and a women's right to choose is in favor of late term abortions because the crazy biatch changed her mind.
Late is completely illegal except in case of serious risk to the mother's life.

Women who have a late term abortion because they change their minds should be beaten like seal cubs.

But how can one justify being opposed to a late-term abortion if the fetus is not a baby until birth?


"Late term" abortions are emergency medical procedures. You're both callous and ignorant if you don't understand that. They come up mostly because of horrific defects in the fetus. Fark would ban me if I posted images of what is being aborted. The mothers health is very rarely an issue that far along although it does come up and should also be considered an emergency.
 
2013-08-19 02:24:45 PM

ginandbacon: vygramul: namatad: vygramul: There's also a gradient of opinion on abortion. There are people who are ok with the day-after pill but are appalled at the idea of third-trimester abortions unless the mother's life is at risk.

I am pretty certain that that covers everyone.
NO ONE in favor of abortion and a women's right to choose is in favor of late term abortions because the crazy biatch changed her mind.
Late is completely illegal except in case of serious risk to the mother's life.

Women who have a late term abortion because they change their minds should be beaten like seal cubs.

But how can one justify being opposed to a late-term abortion if the fetus is not a baby until birth?

"Late term" abortions are emergency medical procedures. You're both callous and ignorant if you don't understand that. They come up mostly because of horrific defects in the fetus. Fark would ban me if I posted images of what is being aborted. The mothers health is very rarely an issue that far along although it does come up and should also be considered an emergency.


Wait - NAMATAD said they should be beaten like baby seals but I'M the one who's callous?
 
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