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(Reuters)   In a move right out of an 19th century melodrama, Creditors asking if Detroit can be really 'that bankrupt' when there are perfectly good works of art left to loot   (reuters.com) divider line 77
    More: Stupid, Detroit, DIA, Governors of Michigan, Rivera, creditors, Macomb, bankruptcy, art  
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2169 clicks; posted to Business » on 19 Aug 2013 at 12:32 PM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-19 12:36:30 PM
Pay your bills or you can't have nice things. Detroit was run for years like a 19 yr old girl with a credit card. Sucks, the DIA is awesome but so is pensioner's health care and basic city services. Maybe city leaders should have run the DIA like every other major city and held the art in a trust. But nope, they own the art outright and it's an asset.
 
2013-08-19 12:41:14 PM
Is it an asset? I think it is. Every asset must be liquidated in bankruptcy, Detroit is not special.
 
2013-08-19 12:44:46 PM

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: Pay your bills or you can't have nice things. Detroit was run for years like a 19 yr old girl with a credit card. Sucks, the DIA is awesome but so is pensioner's health care and basic city services. Maybe city leaders should have run the DIA like every other major city and held the art in a trust. But nope, they own the art outright and it's an asset.


That's an interesting question...   if you're government is so corrupt / incompetent that it leads to the destruction & lost of what most of us would call national resources, what do we as citizens have as a tool to fight back?

This is  an important question, since looting the government is a common practice throughout the world.  There has to be a way to clearly divide up what is owned by the people and what is owned by the state, morally, even if legally the BananaRepublic Lords setup the state so it could be sold to anyone (as that's what is typically done in a Cleptocracy... government ruled by people looking to loot it)
 
2013-08-19 12:45:40 PM

Slaves2Darkness: Is it an asset? I think it is. Every asset must be liquidated in bankruptcy, Detroit is not special.


It's a government... it's not a business... think harder
 
2013-08-19 01:04:21 PM
 
2013-08-19 01:11:17 PM

skinink: Every van Gogh must go!

[img199.imageshack.us image 850x616]


Cheeky!

Who needed art and history anyway... not like there's importance in those old relics.
 
2013-08-19 01:11:33 PM

Slaves2Darkness: Is it an asset? I think it is. Every asset must be liquidated in bankruptcy, Detroit is not special.


Fortunately you have no idea what you are talking about.

The majority of art that the DIA is in possession of isn't owned by the gallery, but are rather held through trusts. If Orr, the emergency manager, tries to sell them he will be in some serious legal trouble.
 
2013-08-19 01:12:46 PM

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: Maybe city leaders should have run the DIA like every other major city and held the art in a trust. But nope, they own the art outright and it's an asset.


FTFA:  "The museum and Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette have contended that the art cannot be sold because it is held in a charitable trust for the people of Michigan."
 
2013-08-19 01:35:31 PM
Ironic, too.  Any suggestion that maybe the City shouldn't run things like the DIA, that maybe it should be independently-run as a charity, was met with "WHITE PEOPLE TRYING TO STEAL OUR STUFF AGAIN" silliness.  SO no suggestions along those lines ever moved forward.
 
2013-08-19 01:39:43 PM
Sometimes your investments don't pan out. I can't understand why the investor class gets such a level of protection. It's not like they were investing out of the goodness of their hearts.
 
2013-08-19 01:41:58 PM
Detroit should hide their artworks in traincars stuffed into tunnels outside Bertchesgaten.

No one will ever think to look there.
 
2013-08-19 01:51:38 PM

Slaves2Darkness: Is it an asset? I think it is. Every asset must be liquidated in bankruptcy, Detroit is not special.


Know how I know you're not a bankruptcy lawyer?
 
2013-08-19 01:52:54 PM
tennessee.hillbilly Detroit should hide their artworks in traincars stuffed into tunnels outside Bertchesgaten beneath the Detroit River into Canada. No one will ever think to look there.

FTFY
www.moodyscollectibles.com
 
2013-08-19 01:53:23 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Sometimes your investments don't pan out. I can't understand why the investor class gets such a level of protection. It's not like they were investing out of the goodness of their hearts.


"Investor" in this case primarily means those who are owed a pension by the city of Detroit.
 
2013-08-19 01:53:54 PM

tennessee.hillbilly: Detroit should hide their artworks in traincars stuffed into tunnels outside Bertchesgaten.

No one will ever think to look there.


Detroit has vast salt caverns under the city.

VAST.  Mining continues to this day, I believe.
 
2013-08-19 02:11:53 PM

meanmutton: HotWingConspiracy: Sometimes your investments don't pan out. I can't understand why the investor class gets such a level of protection. It's not like they were investing out of the goodness of their hearts.

"Investor" in this case primarily means those who are owed a pension by the city of Detroit.


No I'm talking about bond holders and other various parties that think the pension money now belongs to them.
 
2013-08-19 02:14:43 PM

FlyingJ: tennessee.hillbilly Detroit should hide their artworks in traincars stuffed into tunnels outside Bertchesgaten beneath the Detroit River into Canada. No one will ever think to look there.

FTFY
[www.moodyscollectibles.com image 445x282]


Maybe load them on a truck and take them to Windsor in the middle of the night?
 
2013-08-19 02:18:50 PM
Didn't Greece sell a bunch of ancient statues and other artificats super cheaply to the British?
 
2013-08-19 02:26:01 PM

JohnAnnArbor: tennessee.hillbilly: Detroit should hide their artworks in traincars stuffed into tunnels outside Bertchesgaten.

No one will ever think to look there.

Detroit has vast salt caverns under the city.

VAST.  Mining continues to this day, I believe.


You are correct.  According to the company's website the mine has been operating for nearly 100 years, it's located 1,200 feet beneath Detroit's surface, spreads out more than 1,500 acres, and has over 100 miles of underground roads.

In case anyone's curious, here's a photo gallery of operations at the mine over the years from the Detroit News.  I know it's a slideshow, just hit the "view thumbnails" button that's located below the caption.
 
2013-08-19 02:30:53 PM
Thank ALEC for installing an Emergency Manager that did everything to put Detroit in this exact situation.  Others may have put them in a bad place, but (a very ALEC-friendly) Emergency Manager named Kevyn "Judas" Orr made the final decisions for Detroit's current situation.

If you want to blame anyone, look towards the Mackinac Institute and ALEC for taking over the state so that they could score some trophies along the way.  They made sure that Detroit was going to die their way and that they would kill the city so that it would be remade in its own image, constituencies be farked!

The only response from the City of Detroit towards the ill influence of ALEC and the like would be to instruct all city employees to consider them as hostile entities, and to return Kevyn to his master in Lansing.
 
2013-08-19 02:42:23 PM

HotWingConspiracy: No I'm talking about bond holders and other various parties that think the pension money now belongs to them.


Do you know what a bond is?
 
2013-08-19 02:54:50 PM

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: Pay your bills or you can't have nice things. Detroit was run for years like a 19 yr old girl with a credit card. Sucks, the DIA is awesome but so is pensioner's health care and basic city services. Maybe city leaders should have run the DIA like every other major city and held the art in a trust. But nope, they own the art outright and it's an asset.


Yeah, but the problem is if they sell the art to private investors who lock it up in a vault (which is very common).

Then the whole world lost that art because Detroit farked up.
 
2013-08-19 02:57:01 PM

meanmutton: Slaves2Darkness: Is it an asset? I think it is. Every asset must be liquidated in bankruptcy, Detroit is not special.

Know how I know you're not a bankruptcy lawyer?


Please enlighten us.
 
2013-08-19 03:00:18 PM

error 303: Didn't Greece sell a bunch of ancient statues and other artificats super cheaply to the British?


If by cheap you ment "stole", well yes.

/Greece has been trying to get their stuff back for years
 
2013-08-19 03:01:44 PM

error 303: Didn't Greece sell a bunch of ancient statues and other artificats super cheaply to the British?


Well someone sold them to them and some they kinda took. A lot of them were marbles from the Parthenon and Greece has been after the British museum to get them back for years now.
 
2013-08-19 03:03:12 PM

midigod: detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: Maybe city leaders should have run the DIA like every other major city and held the art in a trust. But nope, they own the art outright and it's an asset.

FTFA:  "The museum and Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette have contended that the art cannot be sold because it is held in a charitable trust for the people of Michigan."


According to this article from the Detroit Free Press, the City of Detroit does own the museum and its artworks.  -  http://www.freep.com/article/20130523/NEWS01/305230154/DIA-Kevyn-Orr- D etroit-bankruptcy-art
 
2013-08-19 03:11:43 PM

mcreadyblue: error 303: Didn't Greece sell a bunch of ancient statues and other artificats super cheaply to the British?

If by cheap you ment "stole", well yes.

/Greece has been trying to get their stuff back for years


To be fair, the Brits didn't just take the stuff.  They asked the local authorities.  Who happened to be Turkish at the time, so they were all like "sure, whatever."

These same Turks once used the Parthenon as a powder magazine.  That made the ruins a lot more ruined when the inevitable happened.

They weren't big on historical preservation.
 
2013-08-19 03:18:02 PM

redking194: midigod: detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: Maybe city leaders should have run the DIA like every other major city and held the art in a trust. But nope, they own the art outright and it's an asset.

FTFA:  "The museum and Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette have contended that the art cannot be sold because it is held in a charitable trust for the people of Michigan."

According to this article from the Detroit Free Press, the City of Detroit does own the museum and its artworks.  -  http://www.freep.com/article/20130523/NEWS01/305230154/DIA-Kevyn-Orr- D etroit-bankruptcy-art


I guess that's why it'll go to court.  But this phrase does seem troubling to me:  "But it is an asset of the city to a certain degree. "  Not sure what Holy Hell that means, but it does seem to mean that people are trying to be coy about what its status really is.
 
2013-08-19 03:31:20 PM

sethstorm: The only response from the City of Detroit towards the ill influence of ALEC and the like would be to instruct all city employees to consider them as hostile entities, and to return Kevyn to his master in Lansing.


So let me get this straight. For thirty or forty years the people of Detroit have actively elected and reelected a succession of absolute failures who worked harder to placate the residents and seek blame elsewhere than make the necessary changes to revitalize the city....

.... so it's somehow the EM's fault that everything finally came crashing down?

Fark that noise. It's been obvious that this has been coming for a long time and Detroit has made virtually no effort to prevent it. When you make basically no effort to fix your own problems you don't get to biatch when somebody else finally has to do it for you, nor do you get to cry when part of that solution involves taking your pretty stuff away.
 
2013-08-19 03:42:05 PM

skozlaw: .... so it's somehow the EM's fault that everything finally came crashing down?


Yes.  Why else did he decide that the city should default on existing debt and then rush through a bankruptcy filing to fulfill the wishes of the folks in Lansing?  If they had a more politically neutral entity that wasn't hell-bent on scoring every political trophy to be had in Michigan, perhaps it wouldn't be a problem.  Kevyn "Judas" Orr just was piling more on the camel's back to break it, however little that might be.

Thankfully my home state to the immediate south, Ohio, stopped ALEC with a 68-39 referendum against one of their laws.  Unfortunately, we must have inspired ALEC-led Michigan to add referendum-blocking provisions to their signature must-pass laws - since they only consider some Michiganders worthy of having a voice.
 
2013-08-19 03:46:34 PM

NostroZ: as that's what is typically done in a Kleptocracy... government ruled by people looking to loot it)


...which describes the Snyder administration completely.
 
2013-08-19 03:54:03 PM
Feds should call the equivalent of eminent domain and Yoink them off to other federal and/or state museums.
 
2013-08-19 03:54:20 PM

sethstorm: skozlaw: .... so it's somehow the EM's fault that everything finally came crashing down?

Yes.  Why else did he decide that the city should default on existing debt and then rush through a bankruptcy filing to fulfill the wishes of the folks in Lansing?  If they had a more politically neutral entity that wasn't hell-bent on scoring every political trophy to be had in Michigan, perhaps it wouldn't be a problem.  Kevyn "Judas" Orr just was piling more on the camel's back to break it, however little that might be.

Thankfully my home state to the immediate south, Ohio, stopped ALEC with a 68-39 referendum against one of their laws.  Unfortunately, we must have inspired ALEC-led Michigan to add referendum-blocking provisions to their signature must-pass laws - since they only consider some Michiganders worthy of having a voice.


Back away from the bong.

The city was farked long ago by Kwami and the rest of the thieving scum, nothing Orr did forced the city to default on its bond payments
 
2013-08-19 03:54:25 PM

sethstorm: NostroZ: as that's what is typically done in a Kleptocracy... government ruled by people looking to loot it)

...which describes the Snyder administration mayoral terms of Coleman Young and Kwame Kilpatrick completely.


FTFYDS.  (Fixed that for your delusional self.)
 
2013-08-19 03:56:19 PM
JohnAnnArbor Detroit has vast salt caverns under the city.  VAST.  Mining continues to this day, I believe.

Polish Hussar You are correct.

I always wondered why that never caused collapses or sinkholes...Some people claim they can hear the mining, because the thing goes up to Warren, out Downriver & up to Novi-then there's 'The Windsor Hum', that sadly has NOTHING to do with 'The Windsor Ballet'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeeQj6ArZ2c

That said,as far as 'Detroit' actually making stuff it's a shame now that 'Whizzers'(no, not the Whizinator) are apparently making a comeback that they don't make 'em in Pontiac anymore but in Dallas via China  http://www.whizzermotorbike.com/History.html
 
2013-08-19 03:57:33 PM

BHShaman: Feds should call the equivalent of eminent domain and Yoink them off to other federal and/or state museums.


Obviously limited to OWNED works and not those just on display from Trust, Estates, or Individuals
 
2013-08-19 03:59:49 PM

FlyingJ: JohnAnnArbor Detroit has vast salt caverns under the city.  VAST.  Mining continues to this day, I believe.

Polish Hussar You are correct.

I always wondered why that never caused collapses or sinkholes...Some people claim they can hear the mining, because the thing goes up to Warren, out Downriver & up to Novi


It's pretty far down.  And Cleveland has similar mines that extend a considerable way under Lake Erie, I believe.
 
2013-08-19 04:07:46 PM

JohnAnnArbor: FlyingJ: JohnAnnArbor Detroit has vast salt caverns under the city.  VAST.  Mining continues to this day, I believe.

Polish Hussar You are correct.

I always wondered why that never caused collapses or sinkholes...Some people claim they can hear the mining, because the thing goes up to Warren, out Downriver & up to Novi

It's pretty far down.  And Cleveland has similar mines that extend a considerable way under Lake Erie, I believe.


According to this article, Cleveland's salt mine extends 4 miles under Lake Erie
 
2013-08-19 04:14:05 PM

Polish Hussar: JohnAnnArbor: FlyingJ: JohnAnnArbor Detroit has vast salt caverns under the city.  VAST.  Mining continues to this day, I believe.

Polish Hussar You are correct.

I always wondered why that never caused collapses or sinkholes...Some people claim they can hear the mining, because the thing goes up to Warren, out Downriver & up to Novi

It's pretty far down.  And Cleveland has similar mines that extend a considerable way under Lake Erie, I believe.

According to this article, Cleveland's salt mine extends 4 miles under Lake Erie


Hopefully no one starts drilling for oil...
 
2013-08-19 04:15:40 PM

JohnAnnArbor: sethstorm: NostroZ: as that's what is typically done in a Kleptocracy... government ruled by people looking to loot it)

...which describes the Snyder administration, who acts no different than the mayoral administrations of Coleman Young and Kwame Kilpatrick.


FTFY.
It's as if those folks in Lansing can't sneeze without ALEC & the Mackinac Institute writing up how that sneeze should happen.


ShadowKamui: Derp.

The city was farked long ago by Kwami and the rest of the thieving scum, nothing Orr did forced the city to default on its bond payments


Then why did he decide to refuse to pay, and thus trigger a default?  He ensured that there was no way out that wasn't sanctioned by Lansing.


For both of you:
An accurate description of Michigan's state of affairs after Snyder started his term:
www.movieplusgt.com
 
2013-08-19 04:18:07 PM

Fish in a Barrel: Hopefully no one starts drilling for oil...


There's oil shale not too far from Cleveland, and it's not doing too badly for the people involved.
 
2013-08-19 04:20:23 PM

sethstorm: JohnAnnArbor: sethstorm: NostroZ: as that's what is typically done in a Kleptocracy... government ruled by people looking to loot it)

...which describes the Snyder administration, who acts no different than the mayoral administrations of Coleman Young and Kwame Kilpatrick.

FTFY.
It's as if those folks in Lansing can't sneeze without ALEC & the Mackinac Institute writing up how that sneeze should happen.


ShadowKamui: Derp.

The city was farked long ago by Kwami and the rest of the thieving scum, nothing Orr did forced the city to default on its bond payments

Then why did he decide to refuse to pay, and thus trigger a default?  He ensured that there was no way out that wasn't sanctioned by Lansing.


For both of you:
An accurate description of Michigan's state of affairs after Snyder started his term:
[www.movieplusgt.com image 641x214]


Ah, you're one of those "the evidence doesn't matter, ((x)) is always to blame" types.
 
2013-08-19 04:22:22 PM

HotWingConspiracy: meanmutton: HotWingConspiracy: Sometimes your investments don't pan out. I can't understand why the investor class gets such a level of protection. It's not like they were investing out of the goodness of their hearts.

"Investor" in this case primarily means those who are owed a pension by the city of Detroit.

No I'm talking about bond holders and other various parties that think the pension money now belongs to them.


I thought bond holders always go paid back first during bankruptcy proceedings? If they don't here it will be really interesting to see what that does to interest rates for other cities.
 
2013-08-19 04:23:27 PM

midigod: I guess that's why it'll go to court. But this phrase does seem troubling to me: "But it is an asset of the city to a certain degree. " Not sure what Holy Hell that means, but it does seem to mean that people are trying to be coy about what its status really is.


It is an asset to the city because people want to go and look at it and spend money to do so.
 
2013-08-19 04:38:09 PM

JohnAnnArbor: derp


No, I just see them as the least qualified entity given that they're more concerned with remaking a state (and in Detroit's case, city) in their own approved image than they are fixing the city.

If the entire ALEC/Mackinac apparatus were to be removed from Michigan, including Kevyn "Judas" Orr, and that their laws were reversed/nullified/repealed, perhaps one might be able to consider fixing Detroit.  At the minimum, they'd have to be neutered in ways equivalent to Ohio's legislature.  The key is that neither ALEC nor the Mackinac Institute (or like organizations) could benefit from Detroit's demise.
 
2013-08-19 04:50:58 PM
Is Detroit going to lose the naming rights to the river?

Who knows? Maybe it will become the "Windsor River" because of this.
 
2013-08-19 04:54:52 PM

NostroZ: Slaves2Darkness: Is it an asset? I think it is. Every asset must be liquidated in bankruptcy, Detroit is not special.

It's a government... it's not a business... think harder


Or, try reading easily obtained information about Chapter 9 bankruptcy:

"Although similar to other chapters in some respects, chapter 9 is significantly different in that there is no provision in the law for liquidation of the assets of the municipality and distribution of the proceeds to creditors. Such a liquidation or dissolution would undoubtedly violate the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution and the reservation to the states of sovereignty over their internal affairs."

So, they actually are special, according to federal bankruptcy law.
 
2013-08-19 04:57:27 PM

inntheory: Slaves2Darkness: Is it an asset? I think it is. Every asset must be liquidated in bankruptcy, Detroit is not special.

Fortunately you have no idea what you are talking about.

The majority of art that the DIA is in possession of isn't owned by the gallery, but are rather held through trusts. If Orr, the emergency manager, tries to sell them he will be in some serious legal trouble.


sethstorm: JohnAnnArbor: derp

No, I just see them as the least qualified entity given that they're more concerned with remaking a state (and in Detroit's case, city) in their own approved image than they are fixing the city.

If the entire ALEC/Mackinac apparatus were to be removed from Michigan, including Kevyn "Judas" Orr, and that their laws were reversed/nullified/repealed, perhaps one might be able to consider fixing Detroit.  At the minimum, they'd have to be neutered in ways equivalent to Ohio's legislature.  The key is that neither ALEC nor the Mackinac Institute (or like organizations) could benefit from Detroit's demise.


A little over the top, but yes, f--k Mackinac.  And lazy reporters who keep going to them as a reputable source of information.

www.net4dem.org

I wrote a report on this in 4th grade.  My Dad showed me which person Riviera painted doing the job my grandfather did on the line, and where he painted Henry Ford and himself into the mural.  I've given countless tours of Detroit to friends in college and newly relocated friends and coworkers (giving another one Saturday) and the DIA is always a stop, always.  Growing up in the suburbs I had friends who only went to Detroit to go to the DIA and maybe a Tigers or Red Wings game (no one admitted going to see the Lions), and that was it.  Got several A's in photography in high school taking pictures of the architecture in and around it.  The suburbs voted to raise taxes to help it along.  What is in there can simply not be replaced, and it's one of the few things that really does tie the suburbs and the city together (other than sports).  I knew every hidden corner and stairwell in that place like the back of my hand (until they renovated at least), and where all my favorite pieces were.  Kind of corny, but it was an oasis for me.

Sell it off piecemeal, and you're ripping out the soul of the city for VERY little gain, if any.

Sigh.

Dammit, I have to go into Detroit today too and they're closed Mondays.  Oh well.  Weekend it is.
 
2013-08-19 05:08:05 PM

LeroyB: Is Detroit going to lose the naming rights to the river?

Who knows? Maybe it will become the "Windsor River" because of this.


There's an idea.  The Aquafina®  River.
 
2013-08-19 05:08:18 PM
I guess Detroit isn't experiencing a Low Winter Sun site tour boom like Albuquerque is with Breaking Bad.
 
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