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(NPR)   American teens used to look forward to car ownership as the ultimate ticket to freedom, and getting laid. Now, they're too damn lazy get a job to buy some wheels, and getting a ride to GameStop in mom's minivan is just fine, even if they're 29   (npr.org) divider line 330
    More: Sad, Gamestop, Americans, political freedom, Woodward Dream Cruise, car culture, cars in america, damn, owners  
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10305 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Aug 2013 at 12:25 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-19 01:52:12 AM  

DarkSoulNoHope: FTA: Cars In America: Is The Love Story Over?

Well, if companies don't like paying their employees money, then it's kinda difficult for those employees to purchase goods and services.


One of the causes of the Great Depression (not the only cause, it was a storm of suck) was the factories paying extremely low wages while they pumped out a flood of new fangled luxury goods like electric toasters.  The problem was there was too limited of a market to buy those goods because the poor sods who built them couldn't afford one themselves.  So they fired the factory workers since no one was buying what they built.  The middle class who could afford them also got fired because you don't need pencil pushers and middle managers when you don't have factory workers and aren't selling product.  Big circle of economic suck.

So we have the new system of everyone works in fast food.  Fortunately, working the register gives you enough money to buy the product so you won't starve.  Unfortunately, not much more than that.  So we have a new circle of suck.

The board of directors doesn't give a shiat because the value of their stock options just went up 10%, so fark the prolies.

/no, I'm not calling for the people's control of the factor. That's the biggest circle of suck
 
2013-08-19 01:52:59 AM  
FTFA:

"My girlfriend drives me everywhere. That sounds sad, and 20 years ago I'd be considered pathetic, but it's almost normal now to be that way," says Mike Clubb, who is in his 20s.


Nope....you are still pathetic.  Be a man.
 
2013-08-19 01:53:26 AM  
JorgIX

studebaker hoch
 A car will not get you laid.

A private dorm room will get you laid.


Being good looking will get you laid.

Although explaining to your date that you need to meet her at whatever location because you don't own a car and you need to use the bus to get there won't exactly make her moist either.
 
2013-08-19 01:53:45 AM  

Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.


WHAT! I could have gotten The Clash for my clunker? Son of  Biatch did I miss a deal!
What the Clash might have looked like...

i773.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-19 01:54:09 AM  
I'm terrified of driving and currently don't, but I am supposed to start again according to everyone in my life, including my therapist and psychiatrist. Do you know that there are no laws against driving while taking prescribed sedatives in the US? I have panic disorder and lots of other disorders involving anxiety, and I hate driving.

My parents forced me to drive in high school because I went to what they call in Virginia a "Governor's school." I went there part of the day and then my city's high school the rest. This meant no bus service, which meant I had to drive. I got my license, which was actually frighteningly easy to do. I had already taken the education part, which was part of 10th grade gym class. The second part was just driving for 7 hours with a teacher from school. I wasn't a bad driver, per se. In fact, strangely enough, I'm one of the only people I can remember from high school who didn't get in some type of fender bender.

I drove to school and back every day having panic attacks. And the on-ramps--oh, god, the on-ramps. I had a really old car with bad brakes. I one time was stopping at an intersection when it was raining really hard. I stepped on the brake, and the car just spun out in the middle of the intersection. And you know what I did? I closed my eyes! I'm not sure if there was  anything else I could have done. But I was very lucky no one else was in the intersection at the time.

My parents sold my car when I graduated, reasoning I wouldn't need it at college. We sold it for $200.

Then my anxiety came to a peak in college and I had to leave and come back home. I haven't driven since my big nervous breakdown, but it's unfortunately one of those things you need to do to function in some parts of the world.

I'm 30, and my dad is encouraging me to drive telling me he'll even buy me a new car! Lol . . . I know people say the world is backward, but I'm upside down!

I would take one of those Google self-driving cars any day. It would be so freeing.
 
2013-08-19 01:54:29 AM  
I could take a cab out and home again 5 nights a week for the cost of a car's upkeep, much less payments.  But I'm sure the satisfaction of being able to go to the store at 2 am without walking a whole 10 minutes to buy 1 item totally makes up for the costs.
 
2013-08-19 01:56:15 AM  

bbfreak: Hey Subby, go fark yourself. America's youth is the largest unemployed age group in this country, its hard to have the money for a car if you can't afford one. Those that do have jobs, are underemployed, and being paid peanuts. Yet their employers make it pretty impossible to have more than one job, because they want you to be flexible. All of which doesn't really make it possible for you to not only afford a car but climb out of poverty, but screw those people right? I mean, if you didn't go to college you're just a loser who deserves to be a useless peon right Subby? Then you can justify being in debt because of your college degree while you work at a company for the next 30 to 40 years of your life.

The youth of America are being farked, and farked hard. Don't be surprised when they finally get tired of this shiat.


I was going to mention that.  Also, those underemployed young workers have crushing student loan debt they now have to pay off.  A car is simply not feasible.  I blame our school system.  Everyone was told, "you're a loser if you don't get a college degree."  And for most, the only way to go to college was with a student loan.  Meanwhile, that loser who got a job working construction or plumbing just bought a second new car and is taking the family to Europe for their vacation.
 
2013-08-19 01:56:53 AM  
Tag is for subby's old-fart rhetoric. If you'd left us a farking economy where we could even find jobs in our teens let alone ones that paid worth a shiat, maybe we'd all have cars by now.

But then you might not've gotten the second car.

Or the boat.

Let's cut to the chase: subby can go fark himself.
 
2013-08-19 02:01:09 AM  
42 yo woman here, I am car free! I love it. No hassles with car salesmen, no hassles with car repair dudes, no hassles with fuel, no parking hassles, no hassles with the government for licensing and emissions, or insurance issues.  I budget one car rental weekend a month, and buy supplemental insurance from the car rental agency as I don't carry a policy on myself as a named non-owner driver.

Here are my tips and tricks for making it work:
* I use public transportation, purchasing a discounted pass from a college where I take 1 college course.
* I have a personal shopping cart for the daily, weekly runs.
* I shop for heavy stuff when I have the rental car, when I don't have the car I make due without.
* I rent from Enterprise, their cheapest car with USAA membership ran ~$100 for a weekend with fuel.

Renting with Enterprise rocks, many of their rental agencies deliver the car to your door, with drop off service.
 
2013-08-19 02:02:15 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?


Taxi
 
2013-08-19 02:04:20 AM  

bbfreak: Don't be surprised when they finally get tired of this shiat.


encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com
 
2013-08-19 02:04:44 AM  
SirEattonHogg *

JorgIX studebaker hoch

A car will not get you laid.

A private dorm room will get you laid.

Being good looking will get you laid.

Although explaining to your date that you need to meet her at whatever location because you don't own a car and you need to use the bus to get there won't exactly make her moist either.


If you are good looking and have your own place, she'll find her way to you just fine.
 
2013-08-19 02:06:22 AM  

Smeggy Smurf: E5bie: Voodoo_Stu: Thanks for the answers.  I had to look up what Zipcar was, and it doesn't appear to be available in my city.  I tend to buy a lot of heavy, bulky groceries at once, so backpacks usually wouldn't work.  Personaly shopping carts eh...  I might look into that. Be honest, though.  Would I look like a hobo?  I don't exactly want to get hassled..

Any one put a trailer on a bike?

Babies R Us has them for $99. Those suckers require zero skill to install, and will carry 200lbs of stuff or however much you can pedal with.

Not 200. 70 lbs max.  I know, I've done it enough times during my divorce and the post divorce recovery.

70 lbs is about 10 bags worth of groceries.  Figure meat is heavy but produce isn't.  It works out.  You can also pick up panniers, a rear rack and use a backpack.  Figure 70 lbs for the trailer, two half racks in the panniers and whatever soft stuff like bread goes in the backpack.  All total about 100 lbs of food.  You won't be going very fast.  Say about 10-12 mph.  Not because you can't go faster but because you can't stop for shiat with that much extra weight.


I beg to differ.
Several times my husband has brought home 200 lbs of groceries loaded into a bike trailer designed for 2 infants.
It can be done.

Of course, he also once loaded 70% of our Honda Fit's interior space with long pieces of lumber, all sticking out the hatchback like a dense handful of toothpicks. (His body occupied the other 30% of the cab). It bottomed out upon entering the driveway. Also, he said some guy stopped and stared at him the whole time he was loading up.
 
2013-08-19 02:06:39 AM  

Fubini: MadMattressMack: Here's what you were paying according to today's dollars:

The thing that graph doesn't capture is the income distribution over time. Even though the relative gas price hasn't changed that much over time, how affordable is gas now than it was in the past?


You're getting into scatter plot territory with that question. People frown on scatter plots.
 
2013-08-19 02:06:59 AM  
My first car, a 1956 Buick Special sedan, was actually several years older than I was. It started by turning the ignition switch and pressing the accelerator to the floor. Had the Dynaflow transmission. (Reserve car was a new Datsun station wagon.)

By the way, I think the premise of the NPR story is bogus. Unless small towns in all these red states have started sprouting mass transportation systems, somebody's having to get around somehow.

However, I do think the point someone made about people's willingness to socialize via electronics, and not gasoline, is worth considering. Keeping up acquaintances that way is a reasonable stopgap until everyone figures out how to get together in person.
 
2013-08-19 02:07:03 AM  

OhioUGrad: aelat: Another reason often cited is money. Maynard says the average cost of a new car is about $30,000, before factoring in car insurance. Add in the high price of gas in some places and owning a car is simply too expensive for a young person.

If only there were a way for young people to buy a car that wasn't new. Perhaps one that had been driven by a previous owner.

The entitled generation doesn't think that way. Just like they all expect to be making $75k right out of college after majoring in art.


I expected close to that with a MS in chem. Turns out 33k and no benefits is reality.
 
2013-08-19 02:07:03 AM  
Maynard says the average cost of a new car is about $30,000, before factoring in car insurance.

Ya, sure when you take high end luxury vehicles and giant SUVs into consideration. The vast majority of people aren't going to be buying a Lexus for their first car...  There are plenty of perfectly viable NEW cars for >$15,000.

And that's if you buy a new car.
 
2013-08-19 02:08:17 AM  
I think that article should be retitled "Why, during the nation's worst recession in almost 100 years, is the social group with the highest unemployment and lowest income, not buying expensive, depreciating and ongoing cost-laden personal assets?"

Actually maybe not, it's kinda unwieldy. I guess "Stupid, Lazy and Entitled Young People are too Lazy, Stupid and Entitled to buy cars" is better.
 
2013-08-19 02:08:24 AM  

LowbrowDeluxe: I could take a cab out and home again 5 nights a week for the cost of a car's upkeep, much less payments.  But I'm sure the satisfaction of being able to go to the store at 2 am without walking a whole 10 minutes to buy 1 item totally makes up for the costs.


It's great that you have that option. Lots of people don't. I'd love to be able to live without a car but in my rural area we don't have reliable mass transit. The local cab company has one whole cab. The bus still leaves me three miles from work. I've had a car since my first job at sixteen ('70s). As long as I could pay for gas and insurance the parents were good with it.
 
2013-08-19 02:10:15 AM  

E5bie: Several times my husband has brought home 200 lbs of groceries loaded into a bike trailer designed for 2 infants.


Those must be some huge infants. Hope everything sprung back okay.
 
2013-08-19 02:10:43 AM  

ArmednHammered: Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.

WHAT! I could have gotten The Clash for my clunker? Son of  Biatch did I miss a deal!
What the Clash might have looked like...

[i773.photobucket.com image 287x176]


You sir are brilliant : )
 
2013-08-19 02:13:49 AM  
As a teen, I am getting a kick of this thread. The disconnect between what was reality decades ago and what it is now is immense, but what seems even more alarming is that some people's perception has not changed at all.

To start, cars are not as cheap as they used to be. I do not have empirical data to support Cash for Clunkers as the reason, but it is clear that it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000.

Part-time jobs are not as plentiful as they were before. Sure, you had three jobs in high school and could afford an old car and maybe even a place to live. Well now in a ton of markets you are not competing for those jobs with a bunch of teens, you are also competing with people that were pushed out of their jobs by the recession and have as many years in experience as you living on this planet. I don't blame hiring managers for choosing them since they don't only have more experience, but are a much steadier source of labor when you consider that they might be stuck there for a while and are not leaving for college or the military any time soon. Multiple jobs are almost a thing of the past in some particularly hit regions.

The cost of things has risen astronomically faster than wages. This obviously affects everyone, but young people might be the group that has been hit the hardest. Again, I do not have any empirical data to support this, but it sure seems that way. The cost of college continues to rise, aid is not as comprehensive as it was before, and other things particularly relevant to  young people (technology, clothing, student housing, etc.)  continue to rise in price. Couple that to the lack of jobs, and the fact that you have never lived to work during the good times and hence you have no savings, and the picture becomes quite dire.

Paid internships are increasingly harder to come by. Even large companies in lucrative sectors like finance and technology keep making intern positions unpaid and still getting a record number of applicants. Students just want to get whatever they can on their resume hoping it will pay off in the future, and employers keep getting more and more out of free labor. Apprenticeships are also almost impossible to come by on technical sectors, but that's just from what I hear from friends that went that route.

This isn't meant as a "my generation has it harder than yours" since I understand every generation has its own set of challenges. Just understand times change and what some of you lived may not be the reality a different generation is living. I have been extremely lucky to have passed most of these hardships, so far anyway, but the overwhelming majority of my peers are not being so lucky. Not by a long shot.
 
2013-08-19 02:14:32 AM  

Matthew Keene: bbfreak: Don't be surprised when they finally get tired of this shiat.

[encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com image 262x192]


While that is still important information you're still a d+ck. Also it sucks to try and cut yourself with a razor blade.
/Nope not gonna say more on that.
 
2013-08-19 02:15:33 AM  
I saved every penny I made the summer I was 15 years old and working at a little burger joint down the street just so I could buy a crappy Buick and get the hell out of my parent's house by the time I was 17. I went back one summer during college, and then never again. In fact, I moved about as far as possible when I lived in Japan for a year, and Tasmania for one summer. Now I "only" live 500 miles away, and I haven't seen them once this year.

...and believe it or not. I actually like my parents. Just not living with or near them.
 
2013-08-19 02:16:30 AM  

OgreMagi: bbfreak: Hey Subby, go fark yourself. America's youth is the largest unemployed age group in this country, its hard to have the money for a car if you can't afford one. Those that do have jobs, are underemployed, and being paid peanuts. Yet their employers make it pretty impossible to have more than one job, because they want you to be flexible. All of which doesn't really make it possible for you to not only afford a car but climb out of poverty, but screw those people right? I mean, if you didn't go to college you're just a loser who deserves to be a useless peon right Subby? Then you can justify being in debt because of your college degree while you work at a company for the next 30 to 40 years of your life.

The youth of America are being farked, and farked hard. Don't be surprised when they finally get tired of this shiat.

I was going to mention that.  Also, those underemployed young workers have crushing student loan debt they now have to pay off.  A car is simply not feasible.  I blame our school system.  Everyone was told, "you're a loser if you don't get a college degree."  And for most, the only way to go to college was with a student loan.  Meanwhile, that loser who got a job working construction or plumbing just bought a second new car and is taking the family to Europe for their vacation.


This, but they aren't really losers at this point are they? There is real money in blue collar jobs these days. It's a shame that so many people look down on the folks that keep things running.
 
2013-08-19 02:17:49 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: ArmednHammered: Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.

WHAT! I could have gotten The Clash for my clunker? Son of  Biatch did I miss a deal!
What the Clash might have looked like...

[i773.photobucket.com image 287x176]

You sir are brilliant : )


Thanks! ;-)
 
2013-08-19 02:19:51 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: you're still a d+ck

upload.wikimedia.org

 
2013-08-19 02:20:07 AM  

p51d007: I'm in my 50's.  Started out with a 69 Ford Galaxie 500 fastback, 400CI, 4bbl.  Gas was 52 cents, 22 gallon tank.
It was a used car.  Kept it until I got out of college, swapped it for a 3 year old LTD, reliable transportation.
Saved, got a 1 year old Ford EXP for fun.  Save some more and then started buying Mustangs.
Had an 85, 89, 95, 99 and still have my 2011.  Start out buying a good used car, not a damn new one.
Then, if you want a new one, so be it, but a program car is the best bang for the buck.  The minute you drive
a new one off the lot, they DROP in price.  Urban dwellers in the BIG cities, most of the time don't really
"need" a car, but out here in the midwest, you pretty much have to have one.


Everyones needs are different. I buy a brand new car about every seven years. I bought my current truck at year-end closeout last November on a great deal. It already has over 30,000 miles, and will see about 40 to 50,000 miles a year. The goal is to keep it for 350,000 miles or so.
 
2013-08-19 02:20:32 AM  
Poor people are stupid, why don't they stop spending so much money all the time?

Poor people suck, why don't they get off their ass and buy cars?

Poor people are stupid, why don't they consolidate housing and live cheaper?

Poor people suck, why do they stay at their parents' residence for longer than we did as kids?

Poor people are stupid, why don't they get a job?

Poor are stupid, why do they ask for enough money to afford a car and housing when they are working entry-level and service industry jobs that don't deserve enough money to live on? Assuming they can get those, now that the average age of fast food workers is over thirty because the stupid people who lost their jobs in the downturn weren't smart enough to land better jobs.  Bunch of lazy scum, the lot of them, right?


What is the overlap between these various comment styles I see on fark, I wonder? And how many shop at walmart for the low prices subsidized by our taxes that help them remain fed, housed, and clothed for their services?
 
2013-08-19 02:20:37 AM  

JorgiX: As a teen, I am getting a kick of this thread. The disconnect between what was reality decades ago and what it is now is immense, but what seems even more alarming is that some people's perception has not changed at all.

To start, cars are not as cheap as they used to be. I do not have empirical data to support Cash for Clunkers as the reason, but it is clear that it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000.

Part-time jobs are not as plentiful as they were before. Sure, you had three jobs in high school and could afford an old car and maybe even a place to live. Well now in a ton of markets you are not competing for those jobs with a bunch of teens, you are also competing with people that were pushed out of their jobs by the recession and have as many years in experience as you living on this planet. I don't blame hiring managers for choosing them since they don't only have more experience, but are a much steadier source of labor when you consider that they might be stuck there for a while and are not leaving for college or the military any time soon. Multiple jobs are almost a thing of the past in some particularly hit regions.

The cost of things has risen astronomically faster than wages. This obviously affects everyone, but young people might be the group that has been hit the hardest. Again, I do not have any empirical data to support this, but it sure seems that way. The cost of college continues to rise, aid is not as comprehensive as it was before, and other things particularly relevant to  young people (technology, clothing, student housing, etc.)  continue to rise in price. Couple that to the lack of jobs, and the fact that you have never lived to work during the good times and hence you have no savings, and the picture becomes quite dire.

Paid internships are increasingly harder to come by. Even large companies in lucrative sectors like finance and technology keep making intern positions unpaid and still getting a record number of applicants. Students just want to get whatever they can on their resume hoping it will pay off in the future, and employers keep getting more and more out of free labor. Apprenticeships are also almost impossible to come by on technical sectors, but that's just from what I hear from friends that went that route.

This isn't meant as a "my generation has it harder than yours" since I understand every generation has its own set of challenges. Just understand times change and what some of you lived may not be the reality a different generation is living. I have been extremely lucky to have passed most of these hardships, so far anyway, but the overwhelming majority of my peers are not being so lucky. Not by a long shot.


All I hear is "whaaaah!"

Life's no breeze for the people supporting their mooching kids, but no one cares about them. What do they need a retirement plan for when they can support their grown kid that can't support him or herself?
 
2013-08-19 02:21:03 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: ArmednHammered: Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.

WHAT! I could have gotten The Clash for my clunker? Son of  Biatch did I miss a deal!
What the Clash might have looked like...

[i773.photobucket.com image 287x176]

You sir are brilliant : )


How funny, I really typed "Clash." Many years ago, I had to play "chaperone" for the members of The Clash in Los Angeles. They were doing a publicity event, and my job was to keep them out of trouble for the day.
 
2013-08-19 02:21:06 AM  
The big difference, which the article failed to touch on, is the cost of car insurance.

Forty years ago, you could buy yourself some cheap junker, work on it yourself or have friends or family work on it to keep it going, using parts from a junk yard if need be.  Gas was cheap, and it didn't cost much to keep a car going if you didn't drive it much.  Insurance was not mandatory, and so if you were poor, you didn't have any.

Now, the cost of insurance puts a stop to that whole thing for anyone who has little money.  If you can only afford a $600 car, how will you afford the $2000+ per year for auto insurance that a young beginning driver (especially male driver) would have to pay?  Not to mention the fact that gas is much more expensive than it used to be (even when figuring in inflation).

The first car I bought, in the mid 80's, cost me $150, gas was $1 per gallon, and I didn't need to have insurance.  Today's teens don't have that option.
 
2013-08-19 02:21:19 AM  

Matthew Keene: tinfoil-hat maggie: you're still a d+ck

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x569]


Close, but no cigar for you!
 
2013-08-19 02:21:59 AM  

Harry_Seldon: E5bie: Several times my husband has brought home 200 lbs of groceries loaded into a bike trailer designed for 2 infants.

Those must be some huge infants. Hope everything sprung back okay.


Babies had grown out of it by then. And I never liked him toting them through city traffic in that contraption anyway.
 
2013-08-19 02:22:31 AM  

Catlike Typist: There are some parts of the country where a car is more of a liability than an asset.  Try parking in San Francisco... if that's not expensive enough for you, try parking in Oakland; the east bay has a disturbingly disproportionate number of parked-car fires.

Don't worry, everyone will buy a car when they need some place to retire live when they're too old and broken to work anymore.


Though here in the Valley, I couldn't imagine going without a car.  You can't farking get anywhere.  My car's in the shop and it's farking impossible to do anything.

Honestly, a lot of what is does is defeat competition.  You don't go to the cheapest grocery store (3 miles away).  You go to the ONLY grocery store .7 miles away and get your ONE BAG of groceries because that's all that fits on your rack.

If you want to do something that's not in your immediate area (defined as 2-4 mile radius, depending on speed and ability to get sweaty), well, you're just farked.  You can spend up to several hours taking multiple buses to get there (though Caltrain makes an OK spine, keeping in mind that it only comes once an hour) since the buses come once an hour, aren't timed transfers, and only go 5 MPH, or you can mooch a ride.  And you WILL be dripping sweat all day long.

Screw it.  I want my car.  I've got better things to do than spend hours getting everywhere.  Transit just isn't good enough.

/Though I will admit that the transit is OK for commuting IFF you're on Caltrain for both work AND home (which is a nice $3-500/bedroom rent increase), and shiatty for EVERYTHING ELSE.
//I'll also acknowledge that it's great to be getting in a ton of exercise biking 10 miles to work and 8 miles back.  Lost 9 pounds in 2 weeks.
 
2013-08-19 02:22:52 AM  

ArmednHammered: This, but they aren't really losers at this point are they? There is real money in blue collar jobs these days. It's a shame that so many people look down on the folks that keep things running.


I had a 5 year high-school reunion a few years back.

Old friend who had finished his plumbing apprenticeship asked what I was up to and I replied that I was studying to be a lawyer. He was impressed and noted that I was gonna make the big bucks.

I told him I still had 2 years of study and 20-80 days unpaid intern work ahead of me before I'd get a job paying a very basic wage working long hours.

He at least had the decency to look sheepish when he told me he'd already got a mortgage and was paying it off easily.
 
2013-08-19 02:24:08 AM  

Harry_Seldon: tinfoil-hat maggie: ArmednHammered: Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.

WHAT! I could have gotten The Clash for my clunker? Son of  Biatch did I miss a deal!
What the Clash might have looked like...

[i773.photobucket.com image 287x176]

You sir are brilliant : )

How funny, I really typed "Clash." Many years ago, I had to play "chaperone" for the members of The Clash in Los Angeles. They were doing a publicity event, and my job was to keep them out of trouble for the day.


Nice, but how the hell did you manage that without a private army? ;-)
 
2013-08-19 02:25:02 AM  
I've only had four cars in my life.

Sold one, wiped one out, one drove off in the night without me in it.

Still have my trusty POS truck.  Nobody wants to buy it, nobody wants to steal it, and nobody's stupid enough to get in its way.
 
2013-08-19 02:25:06 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: While I agree with you. I'd just like to tell a story about my grandfather. He once worked for a company that you would be fired if you owned a car., because the company knew they didn't paying enough to afford one and so they must be stealing from someone. True story,I'm not sure what year that was in.


1. Was this in the United States?
2. If so, I find your story hard to believe unless your grandfather was talking about a time before Henry Ford.

/not calling YOU a liar.  Possibly saying your grandfather liked to tell uphill-both-ways stories while tying on his onion...
 
2013-08-19 02:26:21 AM  
When my daughters are old enough to drive, I will likely give them each an old clunker for the simple reason that they can maintain a social life without relying on any male acquaintances for transportation. As I guy who was amongst the few with a vehicle in high school, I know how easy that is to leverage - and more importantly, how advantageous it is to have the means to leave unhealthy environments.
 
2013-08-19 02:30:34 AM  
OgreMagi:
And for most, the only way to go to college was with a student loan.  Meanwhile, that loser who got a job working construction or plumbing just bought a second new car and is taking the family to Europe for their vacation.  is building back their savings after surviving 2009 and 2010.
 
2013-08-19 02:30:37 AM  

JorgiX: As a teen, I am getting a kick of this thread. The disconnect between what was reality decades ago and what it is now is immense, but what seems even more alarming is that some people's perception has not changed at all.

To start, cars are not as cheap as they used to be. I do not have empirical data to support Cash for Clunkers as the reason, but it is clear that it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000.

Part-time jobs are not as plentiful as they were before. Sure, you had three jobs in high school and could afford an old car and maybe even a place to live. Well now in a ton of markets you are not competing for those jobs with a bunch of teens, you are also competing with people that were pushed out of their jobs by the recession and have as many years in experience as you living on this planet. I don't blame hiring managers for choosing them since they don't only have more experience, but are a much steadier source of labor when you consider that they might be stuck there for a while and are not leaving for college or the military any time soon. Multiple jobs are almost a thing of the past in some particularly hit regions.

The cost of things has risen astronomically faster than wages. This obviously affects everyone, but young people might be the group that has been hit the hardest. Again, I do not have any empirical data to support this, but it sure seems that way. The cost of college continues to rise, aid is not as comprehensive as it was before, and other things particularly relevant to  young people (technology, clothing, student housing, etc.)  continue to rise in price. Couple that to the lack of jobs, and the fact that you have never lived to work during the good times and hence you have no savings, and the picture becomes quite dire.

Paid internships are increasingly harder to come by. Even large companies in lucrative sectors like finance and technology keep making intern positions unpaid and still getting a record ...


Stop trying to introduce reality-based thinking based on the way things currently are into this thread! Boomers want to whine about how millennials are supposedly moochers for not magically taking advantage of opportunities that aren't there anymore, not listen to reasoned arguments.
 
2013-08-19 02:30:38 AM  

2chris2: The big difference, which the article failed to touch on, is the cost of car insurance.

Forty years ago, you could buy yourself some cheap junker, work on it yourself or have friends or family work on it to keep it going, using parts from a junk yard if need be.  Gas was cheap, and it didn't cost much to keep a car going if you didn't drive it much.  Insurance was not mandatory, and so if you were poor, you didn't have any.

Now, the cost of insurance puts a stop to that whole thing for anyone who has little money.  If you can only afford a $600 car, how will you afford the $2000+ per year for auto insurance that a young beginning driver (especially male driver) would have to pay?  Not to mention the fact that gas is much more expensive than it used to be (even when figuring in inflation).

The first car I bought, in the mid 80's, cost me $150, gas was $1 per gallon, and I didn't need to have insurance.  Today's teens don't have that option.


Insurance drops pretty fast once you have enough years driving under your belt.  The first car I bought on my own the monthly insurance payment was higher than the car payment. I was able to find a cheaper company, but it was still high.  Now, my car insurance is negligible.  Like credit, insurance is more expensive if you don't have a history of good behavior with it. You'll need to bite the bullet at some point and establish yourself.
 
2013-08-19 02:31:16 AM  

smells_like_meat: I bought my first car at 21. A Toyota Land Cruiser 4x4..


I bought mine too at 21.... a 1986 Renault GTA.

/really wish I still had that clunker.
 
2013-08-19 02:34:12 AM  

OgreMagi: Meanwhile, that loser who got a job working construction or plumbing just bought a second new car and is taking the family to Europe for their vacation.


Think about how many plumbers graduated from your high school class.

Now think about what they'd get paid if there were twice as many, getting half the hours and with wages pushed down significantly by the competition for jobs.

Given that not once in my life have I needed the services of a tradesman and been unable to find one who could do what I wanted, when I wanted it done (give or take a day of course), I have to strongly question whether it is such a great panacea to the wage problem for everyone to have a tradeskill.  No matter what the average wage in the country is, the amount of plumbing that needs to be done is going to remain fairly stable, so it isn't like businesses that revolve around consumption of things people want instead of things people need.  With that stuff, the more everyone gets paid, the more they buy. Even if the country was doing 20% better, it is unlikely we'd see a 20% increase in toilets or sinks.

OgreMagi: /no, I'm not calling for the people's control of the factor. That's the biggest circle of suck


Are you calling for less people's control of the factor, as you put it?  Like, no or lower minimum wage perhaps, lower safety standards in the workplace, fewer worker protections, and/or a reduction in safety net? Because if you aren't calling for more, then what makes this spot we are at now some type of sweet spot?

I'm just curious.
 
2013-08-19 02:35:36 AM  

JorgiX: it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000



The first hundred of 2500 found on Minneapolis CraigsList search $999.00 and under (some are parts).

1 - 100 Aug 19 - 2000 hyundai sonata - $800 (apple valley) pic

Aug 19 - 1998 ford e-150 - $950 (pine city)
Aug 19 - 1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer - $1 (Farmington Mn) pic

Aug 19 - Ford 1ton Front Dana 60 - $800 (Anoka county) pic

Aug 19 - 1998 CHEVY VENTURE VAN RUNS EXCELLENT MUST SELL ASAP!!! - $950 (Burnsville) pic

Aug 18 - 2003 Buick Rendevous $4200 - pic

Aug 18 - 1995 Toyota Camry - $500 (Brooklyn Park, MN) pic

Aug 18 - 1999 trans am v8 ls1 Loadedw/extras 80k - pic

Aug 18 - 2001 chevy tahoe 4x4 make offer - pic

Aug 18 - 88 Ciera Mechanics Special - $500 (StPaul) pic

Aug 18 - Subaru Legacy Station Wagon 1991, MUST SELL!!! - $800 (White Bear Lake) pic

Aug 18 - 1970 GTO JUDGE PROJECT CAR - (YANKTON,SD) pic

Aug 18 - 2001 Dodge Durango - (Monticello)
Aug 18 - Jeep like on mash CJ 3A? - $500 (out of town) pic

Aug 18 - WTB 350z - $1 (Anywhere)
Aug 18 - 1999 Monte Carlo,... $ 1,500.O.B.O> - (Baldwin, Wi) pic

Aug 18 - mercury sable - $750 (white bear lake) pic

Aug 18 - 73 vw bug/beetle - $600 (Hutchinson)
Aug 18 - 1999 Mercury Mountaineer V8, Leather Interior, AC Works - $795 (Cottage Grove) pic

Aug 18 - TRADE or sell my 01 cadillac sts for 98 or newer firebird. - $1 (Elk River) pic

Aug 18 - 1996 a6 audi quattro - $500 (falcon hts) map

Aug 18 - 04 Suzuki Forenza 2250o/b - (Coon Rapids)
Aug 18 - 1000 lb capacity Trailer, folds for storage - $325 (St. Paul) pic map

Aug 18 - 96 grand am gt for trade - (Andover)
Aug 18 - 97 jeep grand cherokee for trade - (western wi)
Aug 18 - 95-99 GS Mitsubishi Eclipse Part Out - $1 (North Mankato) pic

Aug 18 - 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee for Sale - (Shakopee )
Aug 18 - 1999 GMC Sierra Ext Cab 4x4 - $1 (Hutchinson) pic

Aug 18 - 97 Geo Metro - $650 (montrose) pic

Aug 18 - 1992 Toyota Corolla 5sp - $600 (Somerset, WI) pic

Aug 18 - Set of 4 Firestone Truck Tires w/ Rims - $250 (Osceola, WI) pic

Aug 18 - 98 civic, 4dr, manual for sale/trade - $1 (Miineapolis) pic

Aug 18 - 1995 Ford F150 - $800 (Northfield MN) pic

Aug 18 - 1994 Buick Lesabre - $999 (Monticello) pic

Aug 18 - 1988 ford derby car.. - $750 (Gaylord) pic

Aug 18 - 1997 Oldsmobile Aurora 800obo/trade? - $799 (Belle Plaine) pic

Aug 18 - 1995 Mazda Millenia - $550 (White Bear LK) pic

Aug 18 - Trade Polaris RZR for Silverado - (South Metro) pic

Aug 18 - TRADE FOR MUSTANG GT LOOK!!! any year - $1 (everywhere) pic

Aug 18 - 2000 Peterbilt 379 xhood - (North of Cities) pic

Aug 18 - 1973 opel gt 4 speed mini vette - $45 (hudson/new richmond) pic

Aug 18 - 1980 Chevrolet LUV 4X4 - (Clayton Wi) pic

Aug 18 - 2007 International 9400 - (North of Cities) pic

Aug 18 - 2000 Chrysler Sebring Limited Convertible - $1 (Austin) pic

Aug 18 - Minivan 2000 Pontiac Montana - $750 (Elk River) pic

Aug 18 - REPAIRABLE WANTED - $500 (metro)
Aug 18 - 1983 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz - $800 pic

Aug 18 - Styled Steel Wheels - $750 (Maple Grove, MN) pic

Aug 18 - Super wide tires - $99 (South metro) pic

Aug 18 - 1993 Dodge Dakota 91K miles. - $800 (Eau Claire) pic

Aug 18 - Ladder Rack for Truck - $400 (South Mpls) pic map

Aug 18 - 1973 Super Beetle-Convertible - (Champlin/Elk River) pic

Aug 18 - 1996 Pontiac Sunfire, newer tires! - $575 (SW Minneapolis) pic

Aug 18 - 1992 Ford Taurus, Great Car Solid Motor - $500 (Rockford) pic

Aug 18 - 97 Acura CL 3.0 (Black) - $800 (Robbinsdale) pic

Aug 18 - 2004 Toyota Sienna 89,000 miles! Extras!!! - (Robbinsdale) pic

Aug 18 - jeep cj 7 - pic

Aug 18 - 03 ESCALADE BLACK 12k obo - (Central Mn) pic

Aug 18 - 01 mazda tribute. - $1 (st paul mn) pic

Aug 18 - 2007 Chevy Aveo LS - (Lakeville) pic

Aug 18 - 97 cavailier z24 - $850 (farmington) pic

Aug 18 - 09 - 12 Dodge Ram Front Bumper - $350 pic

Aug 18 - '85 Monte Carlo w/ Hydrolics - (Duluth) pic

Aug 18 - Pick-up Topper F150 6 1/21 Ft. - $400 (Brooklyn Center) pic map

Aug 18 - 2000 Pontiac Grand Am - $800 (Shakopee, MN) pic

Aug 18 - 1993 ford taurus - $700 (white bear lake ) pic

Aug 18 - 2002 Hyundai Santa fe $3500 - pic

Aug 18 - 1986 CHEVY 1500 PICK-UP - (ST. PAUL) pic

Aug 18 - 94 chev 1/2 ton - $350 (Dalbo/milaca)
Aug 18 - 96 Honda accord cheap!!!! - $600 (South metro) pic

Aug 18 - Kia rio - pic

Aug 18 - wanted accords or civics that have fuel leaks - $1 (minneapolis)
Aug 18 - 1999 Chevy Tahoe - (Crystal) pic

Aug 18 - wanted 2002-2004 Tacoma reg. cab 4x4 - (Mn. Sd.Wi or Ia) pic

Aug 18 - 1951 GMC TRUCK - (CENTRAL, MN) pic

Aug 18 - 1993 Honda Accord LX - $900 (Coon Rapids) pic

Aug 18 - 1962 Thunderbird - $950 (Big Lake) pic

Aug 18 - 2003 KIA RIO CINCO - $850 (SAINT PAUL)
Aug 18 - 1999 dodge ram 1500 - (north saint paul) pic

Aug 18 - Mazdaspeed 3 - $1 pic

Aug 18 - 2002 vw passat glx - (milaca) pic

Aug 18 - 1991 Pontiac GTA Trans AM - (Ham Lake) pic

Aug 18 - 94 Grand Voyager - $750 (Mora)
Aug 18 - 1998 Chevy S-10 ext cab - $900 (Grantsburg,WI) pic map

Aug 18 - Buick Regal Grand Sport priced to sell!! - $725 (minneapolis) pic map

Aug 18 - 98 kenworth lowboy - (swmn) pic

Aug 18 - 1991 Mercury Capri convertible. Low Miles - (Farmington) pic

Aug 18 - 2000 Buick Lasabre Limited - $700 (S. MPLS) pic

Aug 18 - 1990 TOYOTA COROLLA/PARTING OUT - $500 (MANKATO MN) pic

Aug 18 - 95 E350 CUTAWAY CHASSIS - $600 (MANKATO MN) pic

Aug 18 - LEASE CAMRY 2012 LE - $226 (WOODBURY)
Aug 18 - 1998 Dodge Stratus - $750 (Robbinsdale) pic

Aug 18 - 2001 Malibu 140000 need it gone today - $900 (Lakeville )
Aug 18 - 1997 GMC Suburban K2500 4x4 - $900 (Anoka/Andover) pic

Aug 18 - Make an offer - pic

Aug 18 - 1997 Chrysler Concorde - $450 (Wyoming, MN) pic

Aug 18 - 1996 geo prizm/ Toyota corolla (low miles) cold AC - $975 (Anoka) pic

Aug 18 - Ford F150 Truck -NO TITLE -RUNS / DRIVES-2WD Topper PARTS / SCRAP - $350 (Albertville) pic

Aug 18 - 1989 FOXBODY MUSTANG - $700 (nmetro)
Aug 18 - 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan - $795 (savage) pic
 
2013-08-19 02:37:53 AM  

bborchar: JorgiX: As a teen, I am getting a kick of this thread. The disconnect between what was reality decades ago and what it is now is immense, but what seems even more alarming is that some people's perception has not changed at all.

To start, cars are not as cheap as they used to be. I do not have empirical data to support Cash for Clunkers as the reason, but it is clear that it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000.

Part-time jobs are not as plentiful as they were before. Sure, you had three jobs in high school and could afford an old car and maybe even a place to live. Well now in a ton of markets you are not competing for those jobs with a bunch of teens, you are also competing with people that were pushed out of their jobs by the recession and have as many years in experience as you living on this planet. I don't blame hiring managers for choosing them since they don't only have more experience, but are a much steadier source of labor when you consider that they might be stuck there for a while and are not leaving for college or the military any time soon. Multiple jobs are almost a thing of the past in some particularly hit regions.

The cost of things has risen astronomically faster than wages. This obviously affects everyone, but young people might be the group that has been hit the hardest. Again, I do not have any empirical data to support this, but it sure seems that way. The cost of college continues to rise, aid is not as comprehensive as it was before, and other things particularly relevant to  young people (technology, clothing, student housing, etc.)  continue to rise in price. Couple that to the lack of jobs, and the fact that you have never lived to work during the good times and hence you have no savings, and the picture becomes quite dire.

Paid internships are increasingly harder to come by. Even large companies in lucrative sectors like finance and technology keep making intern positions unpaid and still getting ...


To start, my points were referring to independent young people. And of course it is no breeze, I mentioned folks being pushed out of their regular jobs during the recession and having to resort to minimum wage jobs usually thought of as starter jobs for teens. This places an obvious strain on the ability of young people to get jobs and they have to stay "mooching" off their parents for longer than they desire in many cases. Has it ever occurred to you that some people that actively look for jobs cannot get them? But sure, go ahead and think of this as just whining from a lazy, entitled young person.
 
2013-08-19 02:38:23 AM  

harm dealer: ArmednHammered: This, but they aren't really losers at this point are they? There is real money in blue collar jobs these days. It's a shame that so many people look down on the folks that keep things running.

I had a 5 year high-school reunion a few years back.

Old friend who had finished his plumbing apprenticeship asked what I was up to and I replied that I was studying to be a lawyer. He was impressed and noted that I was gonna make the big bucks.

I told him I still had 2 years of study and 20-80 days unpaid intern work ahead of me before I'd get a job paying a very basic wage working long hours.

He at least had the decency to look sheepish when he told me he'd already got a mortgage and was paying it off easily.


Hope you do well, I never spent a day in college and I can fix pretty much anything in my house,  whether it's electrical or mechanical. Fixed a computer monitor last week, cost me $3.00 in parts and 40 minutes in time. Work hard, I may be looking for a lawyer soon and wouldn't mind sending some money to a fellow farker.
 
2013-08-19 02:40:02 AM  

Smackledorfer: OgreMagi: Meanwhile, that loser who got a job working construction or plumbing just bought a second new car and is taking the family to Europe for their vacation.

Think about how many plumbers graduated from your high school class.

Now think about what they'd get paid if there were twice as many, getting half the hours and with wages pushed down significantly by the competition for jobs.

Given that not once in my life have I needed the services of a tradesman and been unable to find one who could do what I wanted, when I wanted it done (give or take a day of course), I have to strongly question whether it is such a great panacea to the wage problem for everyone to have a tradeskill.  No matter what the average wage in the country is, the amount of plumbing that needs to be done is going to remain fairly stable, so it isn't like businesses that revolve around consumption of things people want instead of things people need.  With that stuff, the more everyone gets paid, the more they buy. Even if the country was doing 20% better, it is unlikely we'd see a 20% increase in toilets or sinks.

OgreMagi: /no, I'm not calling for the people's control of the factor. That's the biggest circle of suck

Are you calling for less people's control of the factor, as you put it?  Like, no or lower minimum wage perhaps, lower safety standards in the workplace, fewer worker protections, and/or a reduction in safety net? Because if you aren't calling for more, then what makes this spot we are at now some type of sweet spot?

I'm just curious.


That guy who got a job in construction or a plumber is likely up to his eyeballs in debt if not bankrupt with ruined credit and facing foreclosure if he happened to live in an area where the construction industry took a nosedive after the real estate collapse.
 
2013-08-19 02:43:48 AM  

TomD9938: JorgiX: it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000


The first hundred of 2500 found on Minneapolis CraigsList search $999.00 and under (some are parts).

1 - 100 Aug 19 - 2000 hyundai sonata - $800 (apple valley) pic

Aug 19 - 1998 ford e-150 - $950 (pine city)
Aug 19 - 1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer - $1 (Farmington Mn) pic

Aug 19 - Ford 1ton Front Dana 60 - $800 (Anoka county) pic

Aug 19 - 1998 CHEVY VENTURE VAN RUNS EXCELLENT MUST SELL ASAP!!! - $950 (Burnsville) pic

Aug 18 - 2003 Buick Rendevous $4200 - pic

Aug 18 - 1995 Toyota Camry - $500 (Brooklyn Park, MN) pic

Aug 18 - 1999 trans am v8 ls1 Loadedw/extras 80k - pic

Aug 18 - 2001 chevy tahoe 4x4 make offer - pic

Aug 18 - 88 Ciera Mechanics Special - $500 (StPaul) pic

Aug 18 - Subaru Legacy Station Wagon 1991, MUST SELL!!! - $800 (White Bear Lake) pic

Aug 18 - 1970 GTO JUDGE PROJECT CAR - (YANKTON,SD) pic

Aug 18 - 2001 Dodge Durango - (Monticello)
Aug 18 - Jeep like on mash CJ 3A? - $500 (out of town) pic

Aug 18 - WTB 350z - $1 (Anywhere)
Aug 18 - 1999 Monte Carlo,... $ 1,500.O.B.O> - (Baldwin, Wi) pic

Aug 18 - mercury sable - $750 (white bear lake) pic

Aug 18 - 73 vw bug/beetle - $600 (Hutchinson)
Aug 18 - 1999 Mercury Mountaineer V8, Leather Interior, AC Works - $795 (Cottage Grove) pic

Aug 18 - TRADE or sell my 01 cadillac sts for 98 or newer firebird. - $1 (Elk River) pic

Aug 18 - 1996 a6 audi quattro - $500 (falcon hts) map

Aug 18 - 04 Suzuki Forenza 2250o/b - (Coon Rapids)
Aug 18 - 1000 lb capacity Trailer, folds for storage - $325 (St. Paul) pic map

Aug 18 - 96 grand am gt for trade - (Andover)
Aug 18 - 97 jeep grand cherokee for trade - (western wi)
Aug 18 - 95-99 GS Mitsubishi Eclipse Part Out - $1 (North Mankato) pic

Aug 18 - 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee for Sale - (Shakopee )
Aug 18 - 1999 GMC Sierra Ext Cab 4x4 - $1 (Hutchinson) pic

Aug 18 - 97 Geo Metro - $650 (montrose) pic

Aug 18 - 1992 Toyot ...


A ton of those are either parts, do not list a price, or list the price for monthly payments off a dealer. Pretty sure a very good amount of those are not in driving condition meaning you still have to invest a substantial amount to get it running. Still, point taken. Not every place is as ridiculously expensive as California.
 
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