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(NPR)   American teens used to look forward to car ownership as the ultimate ticket to freedom, and getting laid. Now, they're too damn lazy get a job to buy some wheels, and getting a ride to GameStop in mom's minivan is just fine, even if they're 29   (npr.org) divider line 330
    More: Sad, Gamestop, Americans, political freedom, Woodward Dream Cruise, car culture, cars in america, damn, owners  
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10310 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Aug 2013 at 12:25 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



330 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-08-18 10:33:32 PM  
Subby sounds bitter that he has to make insurance payments and spend hard-earned cash on gas.
 
2013-08-18 10:45:22 PM  
I walked to work for 18 months from 82 to 83 to save up for my first car, a  used 77 Trans Am (Bandit with gol eagle decals, T-tops, black on black, the whole 9 yards) and it still didn't get me laid.


It must have been the short shorts and knee-high striped socks that doomed me.
 
2013-08-18 10:52:29 PM  
This article surprises me. I thought Obama had turned the economy around and there were jobs galore.
 
2013-08-18 10:59:02 PM  
Says you subby. 3-ish years ago I got a 1995 Ford Escort LX from my dead great-aunt. I was 17, and it felt like the most liberating thing ever.
 
2013-08-18 11:02:28 PM  
I bought my first car at 21. A Toyota Land Cruiser 4x4..
 
2013-08-18 11:17:59 PM  
I loved driving when I was a kid because I lived in the farking suburbs and it was the only way out.
 
2013-08-18 11:39:09 PM  
After getting my license drove Moms 73 Laguna wagon. The seats folded down. Good times.
 
2013-08-18 11:40:23 PM  
Decades of propaganda aimed at making public transit seem like a desirable way to travel has finally paid off and now people complain about that too.
 
2013-08-18 11:45:10 PM  
If the cars parked in front of our tech support (phone) building are any indication, they use the money they save from living at home to rice out their cars.
 
2013-08-19 12:01:55 AM  
How can a car represent freedom when your helicopter parents still want you to be home by 10:00 and have GPS in the car to make sure you're not lying about where you're going?

/ Things weren't that bad when I was growing up, so I'm only speculating.  Cars have always just been a means of transportation for me though.
 
2013-08-19 12:25:09 AM  
if you look at the study they cite, one of the biggest disparities between groups of kids that have their licenses by the time their 18 and those that don't is their household income, and the biggest reason cited for kids that don't have licenses is not having a car.  it probably makes sense that in the wake of a recession and a steadily increasing income disparity there would be a decrease in teenage car ownership/licensing.

/haven't owned a car in 6 years, sh*t's overrated
//is "i don't even own a car" the new "i don't even have a tv?"
 
2013-08-19 12:27:57 AM  

markie_farkie: I walked to work for 18 months from 82 to 83 to save up for my first car, a  used 77 Trans Am (Bandit with gol eagle decals, T-tops, black on black, the whole 9 yards) and it still didn't get me laid.


It must have been the short shorts and knee-high striped socks that doomed me.


You know, these days short shorts and knee-high striped socks could get you laid if you wore them ironically.
 
2013-08-19 12:28:11 AM  
farm6.staticflickr.com
 
2013-08-19 12:31:30 AM  

markie_farkie: I walked to work for 18 months from 82 to 83 to save up for my first car, a  used 77 Trans Am (Bandit with gol eagle decals, T-tops, black on black, the whole 9 yards) and it still didn't get me laid.


It must have been the short shorts and knee-high striped socks that doomed me.


My first car was a '66 Mustang that my grandpa and I (mostly my grandpa) restored from the ground up.  It didn't get me laid but it was still a biatchin' ride.
 
2013-08-19 12:31:37 AM  
Why bother driving when you can socialize 24/7 on your smart phone?
 
2013-08-19 12:31:37 AM  
well, when i got my first car in 2000

i could fill it up with ~15 dollars a week

now to fill up my car it runs about 40

i know when i was 16 if just going to work was going to cost me ~100 bucks of the ~150 i made a month i would have said fark that and stayed home
 
2013-08-19 12:34:41 AM  
Middle class really sucks now. I drove a god damn beater Taurus into the ground as a teenager, saved up enough to buy a nearly new car at 18 working 3 jobs, drove it to 165 thousand miles till i totaled it after college.Had a couple of beaters after, but could buy a new nicely outfitted fusion at 28.I guess long story short, you should have lived a few lives by the time you are 29
 
2013-08-19 12:38:31 AM  
I'm in my 50's.  Started out with a 69 Ford Galaxie 500 fastback, 400CI, 4bbl.  Gas was 52 cents, 22 gallon tank.
It was a used car.  Kept it until I got out of college, swapped it for a 3 year old LTD, reliable transportation.
Saved, got a 1 year old Ford EXP for fun.  Save some more and then started buying Mustangs.
Had an 85, 89, 95, 99 and still have my 2011.  Start out buying a good used car, not a damn new one.
Then, if you want a new one, so be it, but a program car is the best bang for the buck.  The minute you drive
a new one off the lot, they DROP in price.  Urban dwellers in the BIG cities, most of the time don't really
"need" a car, but out here in the midwest, you pretty much have to have one.
 
2013-08-19 12:38:49 AM  
car story bro

My first car was a rusted up, broken windshield, no muffler, POS Mercury Topaz.  Bought that thing for 350$ cash.  For all its quirks it ran for four years before I had to put her down.  Being a stupid teen, you always gotta see how fast your car will go flooring it.  Got the girl up to 114 in the back country roads.
 
2013-08-19 12:39:27 AM  
Sounds like YOU are working for your CAR, man!

/Simpsons
 
2013-08-19 12:39:42 AM  
Shouldn't you be on a balcony yelling at a Muppet.
 
2013-08-19 12:39:50 AM  
Price to buy and maintain a car has at least doubled from when I graduated from high school in 2004. I had a '95 skylark I got for just over $1500. My brother was lucky enough to get his license just after Cash for Clunkers, and he was paying almost 4X as much for gas and over double what I did for a similar car.

Great work everyone.

FTA:  "My girlfriend drives me everywhere. That sounds sad, and 20 years ago I'd be considered pathetic, but it's almost normal now to be that way," says Mike Clubb, who is in his 20s.


No Mike, you are still pathetic. It's not normal and it's really awkward. Get a job and car or just use public transit.
 
2013-08-19 12:39:51 AM  
Another reason often cited is money. Maynard says the average cost of a new car is about $30,000, before factoring in car insurance. Add in the high price of gas in some places and owning a car is simply too expensive for a young person.

If only there were a way for young people to buy a car that wasn't new. Perhaps one that had been driven by a previous owner.
 
2013-08-19 12:41:33 AM  
FTA : "My girlfriend drives me everywhere. That sounds sad, and 20 years ago I'd be considered pathetic, but it's almost normal now to be that way," says Mike Clubb, who is in his 20s.

"Almost" being the operative word.

This dude needs a car, he just chooses to mooch off his girlfriend.

At least she knows he needs her.
 
2013-08-19 12:42:23 AM  
A car will not get you laid.

A private dorm room will get you laid.
 
2013-08-19 12:42:43 AM  
I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?
 
2013-08-19 12:43:37 AM  

studebaker hoch: A car will not get you laid.

A private dorm room will get you laid.


No need for private when you have hangers on the door or roomate high fives
 
2013-08-19 12:45:16 AM  
Wait until this generation finally gets jobs, then looks in the mirror and sees 35 staring them in the face and realizes they never got to live out their youth.

Buy stock in BMW and Just For Men.  You're going to be able to see the midlife crisis from space.
 
2013-08-19 12:45:31 AM  

aelat: Another reason often cited is money. Maynard says the average cost of a new car is about $30,000, before factoring in car insurance. Add in the high price of gas in some places and owning a car is simply too expensive for a young person.

If only there were a way for young people to buy a car that wasn't new. Perhaps one that had been driven by a previous owner.


Seriously.  Look, if you live in an area where public transportation is awesome, great, you don't need a care.  If you live somewhere where it sucks and you need access to an automobile to get around, and you're just bumming rides, get off your lazy ass, earn some money, and buy a used car.
 
2013-08-19 12:46:10 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?


zipcar for big grocery runs, backpack for small ones.
 
2013-08-19 12:46:20 AM  

fusillade762: Why bother driving when you can socialize 24/7 on your smart phone?


So that when you finally stumble upon a girl who actually wants something to do with you, you don't have to have your mommy drop you off like a middle school boy.
 
2013-08-19 12:47:12 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?


Just push them home in the shopping cart
 
2013-08-19 12:48:25 AM  
So much vindictive spite aimed at the age groups with the least amount of money and power. Previous generations stripmined the opportunity out of this country, and now the kids left with the scraps get kicked around and spit on for not taking advantage of all the opportunities that don't exist anymore.

Seems like a good enough distraction. I mean, as the middle class shrinks more and more, who else do they have left to look down upon to blame their troubles on? Can't have them looking in the other direction along the food chain, can we?
 
2013-08-19 12:48:41 AM  

JasonOfOrillia: markie_farkie: I walked to work for 18 months from 82 to 83 to save up for my first car, a  used 77 Trans Am (Bandit with gol eagle decals, T-tops, black on black, the whole 9 yards) and it still didn't get me laid.


It must have been the short shorts and knee-high striped socks that doomed me.

You know, these days short shorts and knee-high striped socks could get you laid if you wore them ironically.


Uhh, I'm pushing 50 in a little over a year.

Doing that would be more pathetic than ironic!!
 
2013-08-19 12:50:08 AM  
I had a 1966 Pontiac GTO as my first car. It was in a mechanic's garage and had not been running for over 10 years. Not only did my dad talk the mechanic into getting it running, but the mechanic sold it to me for $600. I spent 50 bucks for a tape deck and asked my grandma to crochet me a blue afghan that matched the paint. I broke more cherries in that car than a one-handed sundae maker at Baskin-Robbins. I used to let all my buddies that only had a 'learner's permit' drive it on weekend nights, so I could climb in the back and soak panties & fingerbang.
 
2013-08-19 12:50:20 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?


Depends on where you live and available options.

Walk/bike with the groceries if you live close enough. Make the roommate come with if you have one and they want food.
Zipcar works if you need to make multiple stops.
Simple taxi home isn't a bad option if you live in the city or can arrange one ahead of time.
 
2013-08-19 12:52:54 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?


Never had a problem with this as my neighborhood has several grocery stores within walking distance (including a 24 hour Safeway.) Seems like it would be difficult if you didn't have a grocery store a short walk away.

If you have a lot of groceries there's delivery options in most areas. Those personal shopping carts are handy too, they sell them at hardware stores, Bed Bath & Beyond, etc.
 
2013-08-19 12:54:48 AM  

studebaker hoch: A car will not get you laid.

A private dorm room will get you laid.


Buy a van with a bed in it.  That will get you laid.

I'm going to buy my stepdaughter's first vehicle.  A beat to hell truck.  She'll pay for gas, I'll teach her to change the oil.  I'll pay for the liability insurance.  I'm thinking something along the lines of a late 80's Chevy half ton pickup.  Preferably with a shiatty paint job, a V-6 and the dents will have dents.
 
2013-08-19 12:55:01 AM  
It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?
 
2013-08-19 12:55:14 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?


Backpacks. One in front, one in back, one on wheels. Good times.
 
2013-08-19 12:55:16 AM  
American teens in the 50's:

topyaps.com

60's:

www.empireonline.com

70's:

2.bp.blogspot.com

80's:

content8.flixster.com

2000's:

sweetsavageblood.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-08-19 12:55:33 AM  
Thank you, bicycle-riding hipster douches.
 
2013-08-19 12:55:48 AM  
Oh my goodness, things are now different than they were. Oh, what ever will we do.
 
2013-08-19 12:56:59 AM  

markie_farkie: I walked to work for 18 months from 82 to 83 to save up for my first car, a  used 77 Trans Am (Bandit with gol eagle decals, T-tops, black on black, the whole 9 yards) and it still didn't get me laid.


In all fairness to you, the back seat of a 77 Trans Am is tight and uncomfortable.
 
2013-08-19 12:57:51 AM  
I'm 33, and between Car2Go and those bus things I can get where I want.  I walk to work (I chose to live near work, go figure?) so it's really pretty easy and way cheaper to now own a car.  If I need one, there's Car2Go, rentals, U-Haul, borrowing one, etc.

I drove in LA/OC/San Diego/Bay Area/Portland/Seattle to much to want to drive unless I have to anyway.
 
2013-08-19 12:58:43 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?


Ooh, or a used* double stroller, the jogging kind (big wheels). Or a bike with a serious trailer attachment.

*used because they're $300+ new.
 
2013-08-19 12:58:44 AM  
FTA: Cars In America: Is The Love Story Over?

Well, if companies don't like paying their employees money, then it's kinda difficult for those employees to purchase goods and services.
 
2013-08-19 12:59:07 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?


It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.
 
2013-08-19 12:59:10 AM  

AGremlin: American teens in the 50's:

[topyaps.com image 450x300]

60's:

[www.empireonline.com image 300x250]

70's:

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 400x300]

80's:

[content8.flixster.com image 359x181]

2000's:

[sweetsavageblood.files.wordpress.com image 394x211]


Can you find the price of a gallon of gas during those decades?
 
2013-08-19 01:00:07 AM  

davidphogan: I'm 33, and between Car2Go and those bus things I can get where I want.  I walk to work (I chose to live near work, go figure?) so it's really pretty easy and way cheaper to now own a car.  If I need one, there's Car2Go, rentals, U-Haul, borrowing one, etc.

I drove in LA/OC/San Diego/Bay Area/Portland/Seattle to much to want to drive unless I have to anyway.


And as good news, since I already mangled the English language, at least I won't mangle anything behind a wheel, amiright?
 
2013-08-19 01:00:42 AM  
Good.
 
2013-08-19 01:00:49 AM  

ferretman: This article surprises me. I thought Obama had turned the economy around and there were jobs galore.


Gonna hit all the threads, sport?
 
2013-08-19 01:00:58 AM  
With the rules on riding with other kids, there is no point for kids to get their license since they won't be able to drive their friends around.  Plus the economic issues, cash for clunkers taking killing used car inventory and bonsai parenting.
 
2013-08-19 01:01:05 AM  
First car was a 1962 Chevy Impala four door sedan, and yes, it got me laid.  Never in the car itself (aside from a couple of blow jobs) but places we could go to just bang like bunnies.
 
2013-08-19 01:01:30 AM  
Oh i remember the days I could fill up my tank, get someone to buy me a six-pack and I bought the cigs myself all for around 20 bucks.
/Just saying
 
2013-08-19 01:01:34 AM  
I've owned three cars, all used. I felt such a freedom when I learned to drive, it opened a lot of doors for me. Even now living back at home I know that I can hop in the car and escape for a while if I need to...or run errands on my own time, whatever, social life, yadda yadda. $300 a month for payments, insurance and gas is a small price to pay for that freedom.
 
2013-08-19 01:01:37 AM  

AGremlin: American teens in the 50's:


img.fark.net

I don't think any of them were remotely teen age.
 
2013-08-19 01:01:49 AM  
My dad bought my first car and paid the insurance when I was 17. It was a rusted out '83 Jeep CJ7 he paid $2,000 for. He told me that if I want to take it anywhere it'll need gas, and to get gas I'll need a job and money. So I got a job for that and also for the work program class my school ran where I can get out of school early by having a part time job.

Part of that class was one of the singularly most important things I learned from any class - you had to study and pass sections on writing resumes, how to talk to people to land an interview, and how to ace an interview. That one class has earned me far more money and enabled me to get employed anytime I wish a lot more than any other single class.

So, my want to drive my '83 Jeep CJ7 to the beach and pick up chicks ended up landing me a lot of money. And that Jeep on the beach pulled far more ass than anything I've owned since. It was unreal. Ahh, good times. Time to go to bed with my wife.

\I think that class should be mandatory
 
2013-08-19 01:02:36 AM  
Hey Subby, go fark yourself. America's youth is the largest unemployed age group in this country, its hard to have the money for a car if you can't afford one. Those that do have jobs, are underemployed, and being paid peanuts. Yet their employers make it pretty impossible to have more than one job, because they want you to be flexible. All of which doesn't really make it possible for you to not only afford a car but climb out of poverty, but screw those people right? I mean, if you didn't go to college you're just a loser who deserves to be a useless peon right Subby? Then you can justify being in debt because of your college degree while you work at a company for the next 30 to 40 years of your life.

The youth of America are being farked, and farked hard. Don't be surprised when they finally get tired of this shiat.
 
2013-08-19 01:02:42 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: AGremlin: American teens in the 50's:

[topyaps.com image 450x300]

60's:

[www.empireonline.com image 300x250]

70's:

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 400x300]

80's:

[content8.flixster.com image 359x181]

2000's:

[sweetsavageblood.files.wordpress.com image 394x211]

Can you find the price of a gallon of gas during those decades?


Adjusted for inflation and average economy of a car, can you guess where we are now?
 
2013-08-19 01:03:08 AM  

GhostFish: So much vindictive spite aimed at the age groups with the least amount of money and power. Previous generations stripmined the opportunity out of this country, and now the kids left with the scraps get kicked around and spit on for not taking advantage of all the opportunities that don't exist anymore.

Seems like a good enough distraction. I mean, as the middle class shrinks more and more, who else do they have left to look down upon to blame their troubles on? Can't have them looking in the other direction along the food chain, can we?


This pretty much nails it.
 
2013-08-19 01:03:41 AM  
The biggest problem is a tightening of the used market, between cash for clunkers, the decrease in production from 08-11, and the decrease in disposable income for the middle class there's been a very easily noticed increase in the cost of used cars. I've never owned a new car, always preferring to allow someone else to take the depreciation hit, but I'm very seriously considering it for my next vehicle as used cars are no longer the bargain that they used to be.
 
2013-08-19 01:04:13 AM  

brigid: $300 a month for payments, insurance and gas is a small price to pay for that freedom.


Is that you, Al?

www.bundyology.com
 
2013-08-19 01:04:27 AM  
Cash-for-clunkers pretty much took a generation's worth of hand-me-down cars off the road.  I'll bet that program raised the average value of an American car by over $1,000 just by removing so much resale competition.
 
2013-08-19 01:04:35 AM  

Harry_Seldon: AGremlin: American teens in the 50's:

[img.fark.net image 450x300]

I don't think any of them were remotely teen age.


Late 20's....teenagers.....close enough.
 
2013-08-19 01:04:43 AM  
Another reason often cited is money. Maynard says the average cost of a new car is about $30,000, before factoring in car insurance. Add in the high price of gas in some places and owning a car is simply too expensive for a young person.

Young people don't need brand new cars.  Heck, nobody needs a brand new car, but especially if you are just starting to drive.  If I remember right, my first car cost $300.  It was a 66 Ford Falcon, and I was given a guarantee.  He told me "Once you drive it off the lot, if it breaks in half, you get to keep both halves".

I suspect that lack of parking is a fairly major factor that they didn't look into.  You can't have a car if you don't have a place to park it at home.  These days, a lot more people live in places where they have very limited parking and there isn't room for the kids to have cars.
 
2013-08-19 01:04:57 AM  

aelat: Another reason often cited is money. Maynard says the average cost of a new car is about $30,000, before factoring in car insurance. Add in the high price of gas in some places and owning a car is simply too expensive for a young person.

If only there were a way for young people to buy a car that wasn't new. Perhaps one that had been driven by a previous owner.


This was my takeaway from TFA.

My dad bought my first car with a very specific understanding between the two of us. I had to pay him back (no interest) and I had to pay for my share of the insurance on his policy. If I was to get booted from his policy, I would not be allowed to drive until I had secured my own insurance.

I paid him back, all $700 for that first Mustang. I also paid for my insurance- and, you wouldn't guess- was promptly dropped from his insurance because I had a Mustang and a lead foot. That car sat parked for two weeks before I picked up my own insurance- and I was still in high school. See, I had this thing called a part time job, and my dad was determined to teach me responsibility- fiscal and personal. It worked, and worked well.

My sister-in-law is in her early 20's- and she doesn't even have a permit. She is your very stereotypical blonde, hot as hell and dumb as a stump. She'd kill herself behind the wheel, and the entire family knows it. So, she's happy to just have the flavor of the month drive her around. It's pretty irritating.

/CSB
 
2013-08-19 01:05:10 AM  
Thanks for the answers.  I had to look up what Zipcar was, and it doesn't appear to be available in my city.  I tend to buy a lot of heavy, bulky groceries at once, so backpacks usually wouldn't work.  Personaly shopping carts eh...  I might look into that. Be honest, though.  Would I look like a hobo?  I don't exactly want to get hassled..

Any one put a trailer on a bike?
 
2013-08-19 01:06:31 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: Can you find the price of a gallon of gas during those decades?


About a buck a gallon in 1986 when I started driving.

I was stripping the economy back then to the tune of $4.00/hr., partime, so it was a pretty big nut.

Then again, I probably drove fewer than 8,000 miles a year back then (to work, to school, to home).
 
2013-08-19 01:06:41 AM  

GhostFish: So much vindictive spite aimed at the age groups with the least amount of money and power. Previous generations stripmined the opportunity out of this country, and now the kids left with the scraps get kicked around and spit on for not taking advantage of all the opportunities that don't exist anymore.

Seems like a good enough distraction. I mean, as the middle class shrinks more and more, who else do they have left to look down upon to blame their troubles on? Can't have them looking in the other direction along the food chain, can we?



I wanted to say "Done in one" but this is some great extra effort.
 
2013-08-19 01:08:19 AM  

TomD9938: Quantum Apostrophe: Can you find the price of a gallon of gas during those decades?

About a buck a gallon in 1986 when I started driving.

I was stripping the economy back then to the tune of $4.00/hr., partime, so it was a pretty big nut.

Then again, I probably drove fewer than 8,000 miles a year back then (to work, to school, to home).


Here's what you were paying according to today's dollars:

inflationdata.com
 
2013-08-19 01:08:50 AM  

brigid: I've owned three cars, all used. I felt such a freedom when I learned to drive, it opened a lot of doors for me. Even now living back at home I know that I can hop in the car and escape for a while if I need to...or run errands on my own time, whatever, social life, yadda yadda. $300 a month for payments, insurance and gas is a small price to pay for that freedom.


I just tie on my running shoes and go for 3 to 4 hours - I spend about $100 every 2 months on shoes though...

/ not trolling
 
2013-08-19 01:12:46 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: Thanks for the answers.  I had to look up what Zipcar was, and it doesn't appear to be available in my city.  I tend to buy a lot of heavy, bulky groceries at once, so backpacks usually wouldn't work.  Personaly shopping carts eh...  I might look into that. Be honest, though.  Would I look like a hobo?  I don't exactly want to get hassled..

Any one put a trailer on a bike?


Babies R Us has them for $99. Those suckers require zero skill to install, and will carry 200lbs of stuff or however much you can pedal with.
 
2013-08-19 01:13:47 AM  

bbfreak: Hey Subby, go fark yourself. America's youth is the largest unemployed age group in this country, its hard to have the money for a car if you can't afford one. Those that do have jobs, are underemployed, and being paid peanuts. Yet their employers make it pretty impossible to have more than one job, because they want you to be flexible. All of which doesn't really make it possible for you to not only afford a car but climb out of poverty, but screw those people right? I mean, if you didn't go to college you're just a loser who deserves to be a useless peon right Subby? Then you can justify being in debt because of your college degree while you work at a company for the next 30 to 40 years of your life.

The youth of America are being farked, and farked hard. Don't be surprised when they finally get tired of this shiat.


While I agree with you. I'd just like to tell a story about my grandfather. He once worked for a company that you would be fired if you owned a car., because the company knew they didn't paying enough to afford one and so they must be stealing from someone. True story,I'm not sure what year that was in.
 
2013-08-19 01:17:15 AM  
AGremlin you missed the 90s:

i.imgur.com
/embolism in the pool
 
2013-08-19 01:17:19 AM  

JuggleGeek: I suspect that lack of parking is a fairly major factor that they didn't look into.  You can't have a car if you don't have a place to park it at home.  These days, a lot more people live in places where they have very limited parking and there isn't room for the kids to have cars.


Nope.  I'm just not stupid enough to buy into the myth that I should spend a significant chunk of my income in a car.  Sorry.
 
2013-08-19 01:17:59 AM  
MadMattressMack:
Here's what you were paying according to today's dollars:

[inflationdata.com image 650x443]


*sigh* I drove an '83 Caprice Classic back in 1999. Dollar a gallon gas. Huge bench seats. It was beautiful.
 
2013-08-19 01:18:55 AM  

MadMattressMack: TomD9938: Quantum Apostrophe: Can you find the price of a gallon of gas during those decades?

About a buck a gallon in 1986 when I started driving.

I was stripping the economy back then to the tune of $4.00/hr., partime, so it was a pretty big nut.

Then again, I probably drove fewer than 8,000 miles a year back then (to work, to school, to home).

Here's what you were paying according to today's dollars:

[inflationdata.com image 650x443]



Two bucks a gallon in todays dollars (pretty good).

Of course my truck at  the time only got 10 mpg and I didnt think that was all that bad.

farm4.static.flickr.com

I had a beater version of this beauty that I picked up in 1986 for $400.00.  Drove it for four years and sold it for $500.00

/ sniff
 
2013-08-19 01:19:28 AM  

bbfreak: Hey Subby, go fark yourself. America's youth is the largest unemployed age group in this country, its hard to have the money for a car if you can't afford one. Those that do have jobs, are underemployed, and being paid peanuts. Yet their employers make it pretty impossible to have more than one job, because they want you to be flexible. All of which doesn't really make it possible for you to not only afford a car but climb out of poverty, but screw those people right? I mean, if you didn't go to college you're just a loser who deserves to be a useless peon right Subby? Then you can justify being in debt because of your college degree while you work at a company for the next 30 to 40 years of your life.

The youth of America are being farked, and farked hard. Don't be surprised when they finally get tired of this shiat.


Go ref some soccer games, i made 200 a weekend in the 90s
 
2013-08-19 01:20:52 AM  

aelat: Another reason often cited is money. Maynard says the average cost of a new car is about $30,000, before factoring in car insurance. Add in the high price of gas in some places and owning a car is simply too expensive for a young person.

If only there were a way for young people to buy a car that wasn't new. Perhaps one that had been driven by a previous owner.


That would be great if cash for clunkers hadnt sent all those cars to the scrapyard. 10 year old (2003!) 100k mileage Honda Civic, at least $5k.
 
2013-08-19 01:24:25 AM  

E5bie: Voodoo_Stu: Thanks for the answers.  I had to look up what Zipcar was, and it doesn't appear to be available in my city.  I tend to buy a lot of heavy, bulky groceries at once, so backpacks usually wouldn't work.  Personaly shopping carts eh...  I might look into that. Be honest, though.  Would I look like a hobo?  I don't exactly want to get hassled..

Any one put a trailer on a bike?

Babies R Us has them for $99. Those suckers require zero skill to install, and will carry 200lbs of stuff or however much you can pedal with.


Not 200. 70 lbs max.  I know, I've done it enough times during my divorce and the post divorce recovery.

70 lbs is about 10 bags worth of groceries.  Figure meat is heavy but produce isn't.  It works out.  You can also pick up panniers, a rear rack and use a backpack.  Figure 70 lbs for the trailer, two half racks in the panniers and whatever soft stuff like bread goes in the backpack.  All total about 100 lbs of food.  You won't be going very fast.  Say about 10-12 mph.  Not because you can't go faster but because you can't stop for shiat with that much extra weight.
 
2013-08-19 01:25:23 AM  

ferretman: This article surprises me. I thought Obama had turned the economy around and there were jobs galore  I thought Congress with their laser like focus on jobs would have meant there were jobs galore.

 
2013-08-19 01:26:47 AM  

studebaker hoch: A car will not get you laid.

A private dorm room will get you laid.


Being good looking will get you laid.
 
2013-08-19 01:29:29 AM  
My first car was my 23rd Birthday present from my parents. Its a 2001 Silver Suzuki V6 Grand Vitara. With regular use, I spend about $60 a WEEK on gas. It sucks, but the car was practically free, so I'm willing to spend the gas money when I have no extra car payment. I also love being able to haul things.

/Don't use it as much anymore since the new Expo Line opened. Now I can get where I need to go without spending an arm and a leg.
//In LA.
 
2013-08-19 01:31:04 AM  
CSB/
My first car was $45. A 1949 Plymouth Sedan, six-banger with a slushamatic transmission (manual shift with a torque convertor). It was the same age as me. I was stocking at the local grocery, making minimum wage...$1.75. Gas was about 32¢/ gallon and smokes were 25¢ a pack. I bought one every morning on the way to the bus stop for school. The back seating was large enuf to almost stretch your legs out. It was a hideous flat green, army-looking color. After I graduated high school, I got a real job making $2.73/ hour and moved up to a Dodge Coronet with a a 318cid. It raced against Volkswagens and Opel Kadets, but it was a major panty-dropper. I lived high on the hog until Uncle Sam came and said, "Here's your gun...gimme that guitar".
//end CSB
 
2013-08-19 01:31:10 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?


In NYC you just get them delivered..
 
2013-08-19 01:32:02 AM  
My car is the bane of my existence. Between gas, insurance, repairs, and maintenance I spend most of my money keeping the damn thing running so that I can go to work to make money to keep the damn thing running.

Welcome to America, I guess..
 
2013-08-19 01:33:53 AM  

Smeggy Smurf: studebaker hoch: A car will not get you laid.

A private dorm room will get you laid.

Buy a van with a bed in it.  That will get you laid.

I'm going to buy my stepdaughter's first vehicle.  A beat to hell truck.  She'll pay for gas, I'll teach her to change the oil.  I'll pay for the liability insurance.  I'm thinking something along the lines of a late 80's Chevy half ton pickup.  Preferably with a shiatty paint job, a V-6 and the dents will have dents.


Dude she can just fark guys in the truck bed like I did.
 
2013-08-19 01:36:10 AM  

Esroc: My car is the bane of my existence. Between gas, insurance, repairs, and maintenance I spend most of my money keeping the damn thing running so that I can go to work to make money to keep the damn thing running.

Welcome to America, I guess..


Car, house, and spouse. That's what keeps you guys in line so you can continue transferring money from one millionaire to another.
 
2013-08-19 01:37:00 AM  
My first gasoline powered vehicles were all of the two wheel variety. I got a moped when I was 15. I bought a Honda 250 when I was 18, and have used some variety of 2 wheeled transport since then. Yes, I have a car, but it is a cheap one, and I rarely use is for more than 2000 miles a year.

Best transportation bang for the buck.

image.motorcyclistonline.com
 
2013-08-19 01:37:17 AM  

Mikeyworld: CSB/
My first car was $45. A 1949 Plymouth Sedan, six-banger with a slushamatic transmission (manual shift with a torque convertor). It was the same age as me. I was stocking at the local grocery, making minimum wage...$1.75. Gas was about 32¢/ gallon and smokes were 25¢ a pack. I bought one every morning on the way to the bus stop for school. The back seating was large enuf to almost stretch your legs out. It was a hideous flat green, army-looking color. After I graduated high school, I got a real job making $2.73/ hour and moved up to a Dodge Coronet with a a 318cid. It raced against Volkswagens and Opel Kadets, but it was a major panty-dropper. I lived high on the hog until Uncle Sam came and said, "Here's your gun...gimme that guitar".
//end CSB


CSG: Cool Story Gramps
 
2013-08-19 01:38:26 AM  

alice_600: Smeggy Smurf: studebaker hoch: A car will not get you laid.

A private dorm room will get you laid.

Buy a van with a bed in it.  That will get you laid.

I'm going to buy my stepdaughter's first vehicle.  A beat to hell truck.  She'll pay for gas, I'll teach her to change the oil.  I'll pay for the liability insurance.  I'm thinking something along the lines of a late 80's Chevy half ton pickup.  Preferably with a shiatty paint job, a V-6 and the dents will have dents.

Dude she can just fark guys in the truck bed like I did.


Not when you weld in couch supports but don't install the couches.  I'm talking rails, mounting brackets, nelson studs, etc.
 
2013-08-19 01:41:26 AM  

aelat: Another reason often cited is money. Maynard says the average cost of a new car is about $30,000, before factoring in car insurance. Add in the high price of gas in some places and owning a car is simply too expensive for a young person.

If only there were a way for young people to buy a car that wasn't new. Perhaps one that had been driven by a previous owner.


The entitled generation doesn't think that way. Just like they all expect to be making $75k right out of college after majoring in art.
 
2013-08-19 01:41:50 AM  

bbfreak: Hey Subby, go fark yourself. America's youth is the largest unemployed age group in this country, its hard to have the money for a car if you can't afford one. Those that do have jobs, are underemployed, and being paid peanuts. Yet their employers make it pretty impossible to have more than one job, because they want you to be flexible. All of which doesn't really make it possible for you to not only afford a car but climb out of poverty, but screw those people right? I mean, if you didn't go to college you're just a loser who deserves to be a useless peon right Subby? Then you can justify being in debt because of your college degree while you work at a company for the next 30 to 40 years of your life.

The youth of America are being farked, and farked hard. Don't be surprised when they finally get tired of this shiat.


Just felt like this needed to be reposted before I walk my broke self to the store
 
2013-08-19 01:43:39 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?


You shop more often.  It sucks.  When all I had was my motorcycle, I basically shopped the same way as you would if you took the bus.  Since my saddlebags could only hold two bags of groceries (and nothing too bulky, either), I couldn't get everything I needed in a single trip.
 
2013-08-19 01:44:40 AM  
There are some parts of the country where a car is more of a liability than an asset.  Try parking in San Francisco... if that's not expensive enough for you, try parking in Oakland; the east bay has a disturbingly disproportionate number of parked-car fires.

Don't worry, everyone will buy a car when they need some place to retire live when they're too old and broken to work anymore.
 
2013-08-19 01:47:16 AM  
anaunplugged.com

"I am disappoint."
 
2013-08-19 01:48:08 AM  
Voodoo_Stu

I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has: How the heck do you get groceries home?

If you can't pack or bike them and there is no zipcar in your town, and your grocer won't deliver, you can always rent.

There is a rental car office within walking distance of my house, and in the mornings there are always people there looking for their daily ride.  It's relatively expensive, because if you are carless you are also insuranceless and have to rent that too.  You can probably get out the door with something decent, fully insured, for less than $75 a day.

You can drive the wheels off that rental all day long knocking out errands.  Do it on a Friday, and that night you can take it out on the town.  Next morning bring it back and you are once again gloriously free.
 

Only you can do the math to know if it adds up to not own.  In a rural area, probably not.  In a city these days, probably yes.
 
2013-08-19 01:48:45 AM  

MadMattressMack: Here's what you were paying according to today's dollars:


The thing that graph doesn't capture is the income distribution over time. Even though the relative gas price hasn't changed that much over time, how affordable is gas now than it was in the past?
 
2013-08-19 01:48:55 AM  
American teens have nothing to look forward to. Wall Street took those dreams away.
 
2013-08-19 01:52:12 AM  

DarkSoulNoHope: FTA: Cars In America: Is The Love Story Over?

Well, if companies don't like paying their employees money, then it's kinda difficult for those employees to purchase goods and services.


One of the causes of the Great Depression (not the only cause, it was a storm of suck) was the factories paying extremely low wages while they pumped out a flood of new fangled luxury goods like electric toasters.  The problem was there was too limited of a market to buy those goods because the poor sods who built them couldn't afford one themselves.  So they fired the factory workers since no one was buying what they built.  The middle class who could afford them also got fired because you don't need pencil pushers and middle managers when you don't have factory workers and aren't selling product.  Big circle of economic suck.

So we have the new system of everyone works in fast food.  Fortunately, working the register gives you enough money to buy the product so you won't starve.  Unfortunately, not much more than that.  So we have a new circle of suck.

The board of directors doesn't give a shiat because the value of their stock options just went up 10%, so fark the prolies.

/no, I'm not calling for the people's control of the factor. That's the biggest circle of suck
 
2013-08-19 01:52:59 AM  
FTFA:

"My girlfriend drives me everywhere. That sounds sad, and 20 years ago I'd be considered pathetic, but it's almost normal now to be that way," says Mike Clubb, who is in his 20s.


Nope....you are still pathetic.  Be a man.
 
2013-08-19 01:53:26 AM  
JorgIX

studebaker hoch
 A car will not get you laid.

A private dorm room will get you laid.


Being good looking will get you laid.

Although explaining to your date that you need to meet her at whatever location because you don't own a car and you need to use the bus to get there won't exactly make her moist either.
 
2013-08-19 01:53:45 AM  

Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.


WHAT! I could have gotten The Clash for my clunker? Son of  Biatch did I miss a deal!
What the Clash might have looked like...

i773.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-19 01:54:09 AM  
I'm terrified of driving and currently don't, but I am supposed to start again according to everyone in my life, including my therapist and psychiatrist. Do you know that there are no laws against driving while taking prescribed sedatives in the US? I have panic disorder and lots of other disorders involving anxiety, and I hate driving.

My parents forced me to drive in high school because I went to what they call in Virginia a "Governor's school." I went there part of the day and then my city's high school the rest. This meant no bus service, which meant I had to drive. I got my license, which was actually frighteningly easy to do. I had already taken the education part, which was part of 10th grade gym class. The second part was just driving for 7 hours with a teacher from school. I wasn't a bad driver, per se. In fact, strangely enough, I'm one of the only people I can remember from high school who didn't get in some type of fender bender.

I drove to school and back every day having panic attacks. And the on-ramps--oh, god, the on-ramps. I had a really old car with bad brakes. I one time was stopping at an intersection when it was raining really hard. I stepped on the brake, and the car just spun out in the middle of the intersection. And you know what I did? I closed my eyes! I'm not sure if there was  anything else I could have done. But I was very lucky no one else was in the intersection at the time.

My parents sold my car when I graduated, reasoning I wouldn't need it at college. We sold it for $200.

Then my anxiety came to a peak in college and I had to leave and come back home. I haven't driven since my big nervous breakdown, but it's unfortunately one of those things you need to do to function in some parts of the world.

I'm 30, and my dad is encouraging me to drive telling me he'll even buy me a new car! Lol . . . I know people say the world is backward, but I'm upside down!

I would take one of those Google self-driving cars any day. It would be so freeing.
 
2013-08-19 01:54:29 AM  
I could take a cab out and home again 5 nights a week for the cost of a car's upkeep, much less payments.  But I'm sure the satisfaction of being able to go to the store at 2 am without walking a whole 10 minutes to buy 1 item totally makes up for the costs.
 
2013-08-19 01:56:15 AM  

bbfreak: Hey Subby, go fark yourself. America's youth is the largest unemployed age group in this country, its hard to have the money for a car if you can't afford one. Those that do have jobs, are underemployed, and being paid peanuts. Yet their employers make it pretty impossible to have more than one job, because they want you to be flexible. All of which doesn't really make it possible for you to not only afford a car but climb out of poverty, but screw those people right? I mean, if you didn't go to college you're just a loser who deserves to be a useless peon right Subby? Then you can justify being in debt because of your college degree while you work at a company for the next 30 to 40 years of your life.

The youth of America are being farked, and farked hard. Don't be surprised when they finally get tired of this shiat.


I was going to mention that.  Also, those underemployed young workers have crushing student loan debt they now have to pay off.  A car is simply not feasible.  I blame our school system.  Everyone was told, "you're a loser if you don't get a college degree."  And for most, the only way to go to college was with a student loan.  Meanwhile, that loser who got a job working construction or plumbing just bought a second new car and is taking the family to Europe for their vacation.
 
2013-08-19 01:56:53 AM  
Tag is for subby's old-fart rhetoric. If you'd left us a farking economy where we could even find jobs in our teens let alone ones that paid worth a shiat, maybe we'd all have cars by now.

But then you might not've gotten the second car.

Or the boat.

Let's cut to the chase: subby can go fark himself.
 
2013-08-19 02:01:09 AM  
42 yo woman here, I am car free! I love it. No hassles with car salesmen, no hassles with car repair dudes, no hassles with fuel, no parking hassles, no hassles with the government for licensing and emissions, or insurance issues.  I budget one car rental weekend a month, and buy supplemental insurance from the car rental agency as I don't carry a policy on myself as a named non-owner driver.

Here are my tips and tricks for making it work:
* I use public transportation, purchasing a discounted pass from a college where I take 1 college course.
* I have a personal shopping cart for the daily, weekly runs.
* I shop for heavy stuff when I have the rental car, when I don't have the car I make due without.
* I rent from Enterprise, their cheapest car with USAA membership ran ~$100 for a weekend with fuel.

Renting with Enterprise rocks, many of their rental agencies deliver the car to your door, with drop off service.
 
2013-08-19 02:02:15 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?


Taxi
 
2013-08-19 02:04:20 AM  

bbfreak: Don't be surprised when they finally get tired of this shiat.


encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com
 
2013-08-19 02:04:44 AM  
SirEattonHogg *

JorgIX studebaker hoch

A car will not get you laid.

A private dorm room will get you laid.

Being good looking will get you laid.

Although explaining to your date that you need to meet her at whatever location because you don't own a car and you need to use the bus to get there won't exactly make her moist either.


If you are good looking and have your own place, she'll find her way to you just fine.
 
2013-08-19 02:06:22 AM  

Smeggy Smurf: E5bie: Voodoo_Stu: Thanks for the answers.  I had to look up what Zipcar was, and it doesn't appear to be available in my city.  I tend to buy a lot of heavy, bulky groceries at once, so backpacks usually wouldn't work.  Personaly shopping carts eh...  I might look into that. Be honest, though.  Would I look like a hobo?  I don't exactly want to get hassled..

Any one put a trailer on a bike?

Babies R Us has them for $99. Those suckers require zero skill to install, and will carry 200lbs of stuff or however much you can pedal with.

Not 200. 70 lbs max.  I know, I've done it enough times during my divorce and the post divorce recovery.

70 lbs is about 10 bags worth of groceries.  Figure meat is heavy but produce isn't.  It works out.  You can also pick up panniers, a rear rack and use a backpack.  Figure 70 lbs for the trailer, two half racks in the panniers and whatever soft stuff like bread goes in the backpack.  All total about 100 lbs of food.  You won't be going very fast.  Say about 10-12 mph.  Not because you can't go faster but because you can't stop for shiat with that much extra weight.


I beg to differ.
Several times my husband has brought home 200 lbs of groceries loaded into a bike trailer designed for 2 infants.
It can be done.

Of course, he also once loaded 70% of our Honda Fit's interior space with long pieces of lumber, all sticking out the hatchback like a dense handful of toothpicks. (His body occupied the other 30% of the cab). It bottomed out upon entering the driveway. Also, he said some guy stopped and stared at him the whole time he was loading up.
 
2013-08-19 02:06:39 AM  

Fubini: MadMattressMack: Here's what you were paying according to today's dollars:

The thing that graph doesn't capture is the income distribution over time. Even though the relative gas price hasn't changed that much over time, how affordable is gas now than it was in the past?


You're getting into scatter plot territory with that question. People frown on scatter plots.
 
2013-08-19 02:06:59 AM  
My first car, a 1956 Buick Special sedan, was actually several years older than I was. It started by turning the ignition switch and pressing the accelerator to the floor. Had the Dynaflow transmission. (Reserve car was a new Datsun station wagon.)

By the way, I think the premise of the NPR story is bogus. Unless small towns in all these red states have started sprouting mass transportation systems, somebody's having to get around somehow.

However, I do think the point someone made about people's willingness to socialize via electronics, and not gasoline, is worth considering. Keeping up acquaintances that way is a reasonable stopgap until everyone figures out how to get together in person.
 
2013-08-19 02:07:03 AM  

OhioUGrad: aelat: Another reason often cited is money. Maynard says the average cost of a new car is about $30,000, before factoring in car insurance. Add in the high price of gas in some places and owning a car is simply too expensive for a young person.

If only there were a way for young people to buy a car that wasn't new. Perhaps one that had been driven by a previous owner.

The entitled generation doesn't think that way. Just like they all expect to be making $75k right out of college after majoring in art.


I expected close to that with a MS in chem. Turns out 33k and no benefits is reality.
 
2013-08-19 02:07:03 AM  
Maynard says the average cost of a new car is about $30,000, before factoring in car insurance.

Ya, sure when you take high end luxury vehicles and giant SUVs into consideration. The vast majority of people aren't going to be buying a Lexus for their first car...  There are plenty of perfectly viable NEW cars for >$15,000.

And that's if you buy a new car.
 
2013-08-19 02:08:17 AM  
I think that article should be retitled "Why, during the nation's worst recession in almost 100 years, is the social group with the highest unemployment and lowest income, not buying expensive, depreciating and ongoing cost-laden personal assets?"

Actually maybe not, it's kinda unwieldy. I guess "Stupid, Lazy and Entitled Young People are too Lazy, Stupid and Entitled to buy cars" is better.
 
2013-08-19 02:08:24 AM  

LowbrowDeluxe: I could take a cab out and home again 5 nights a week for the cost of a car's upkeep, much less payments.  But I'm sure the satisfaction of being able to go to the store at 2 am without walking a whole 10 minutes to buy 1 item totally makes up for the costs.


It's great that you have that option. Lots of people don't. I'd love to be able to live without a car but in my rural area we don't have reliable mass transit. The local cab company has one whole cab. The bus still leaves me three miles from work. I've had a car since my first job at sixteen ('70s). As long as I could pay for gas and insurance the parents were good with it.
 
2013-08-19 02:10:15 AM  

E5bie: Several times my husband has brought home 200 lbs of groceries loaded into a bike trailer designed for 2 infants.


Those must be some huge infants. Hope everything sprung back okay.
 
2013-08-19 02:10:43 AM  

ArmednHammered: Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.

WHAT! I could have gotten The Clash for my clunker? Son of  Biatch did I miss a deal!
What the Clash might have looked like...

[i773.photobucket.com image 287x176]


You sir are brilliant : )
 
2013-08-19 02:13:49 AM  
As a teen, I am getting a kick of this thread. The disconnect between what was reality decades ago and what it is now is immense, but what seems even more alarming is that some people's perception has not changed at all.

To start, cars are not as cheap as they used to be. I do not have empirical data to support Cash for Clunkers as the reason, but it is clear that it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000.

Part-time jobs are not as plentiful as they were before. Sure, you had three jobs in high school and could afford an old car and maybe even a place to live. Well now in a ton of markets you are not competing for those jobs with a bunch of teens, you are also competing with people that were pushed out of their jobs by the recession and have as many years in experience as you living on this planet. I don't blame hiring managers for choosing them since they don't only have more experience, but are a much steadier source of labor when you consider that they might be stuck there for a while and are not leaving for college or the military any time soon. Multiple jobs are almost a thing of the past in some particularly hit regions.

The cost of things has risen astronomically faster than wages. This obviously affects everyone, but young people might be the group that has been hit the hardest. Again, I do not have any empirical data to support this, but it sure seems that way. The cost of college continues to rise, aid is not as comprehensive as it was before, and other things particularly relevant to  young people (technology, clothing, student housing, etc.)  continue to rise in price. Couple that to the lack of jobs, and the fact that you have never lived to work during the good times and hence you have no savings, and the picture becomes quite dire.

Paid internships are increasingly harder to come by. Even large companies in lucrative sectors like finance and technology keep making intern positions unpaid and still getting a record number of applicants. Students just want to get whatever they can on their resume hoping it will pay off in the future, and employers keep getting more and more out of free labor. Apprenticeships are also almost impossible to come by on technical sectors, but that's just from what I hear from friends that went that route.

This isn't meant as a "my generation has it harder than yours" since I understand every generation has its own set of challenges. Just understand times change and what some of you lived may not be the reality a different generation is living. I have been extremely lucky to have passed most of these hardships, so far anyway, but the overwhelming majority of my peers are not being so lucky. Not by a long shot.
 
2013-08-19 02:14:32 AM  

Matthew Keene: bbfreak: Don't be surprised when they finally get tired of this shiat.

[encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com image 262x192]


While that is still important information you're still a d+ck. Also it sucks to try and cut yourself with a razor blade.
/Nope not gonna say more on that.
 
2013-08-19 02:15:33 AM  
I saved every penny I made the summer I was 15 years old and working at a little burger joint down the street just so I could buy a crappy Buick and get the hell out of my parent's house by the time I was 17. I went back one summer during college, and then never again. In fact, I moved about as far as possible when I lived in Japan for a year, and Tasmania for one summer. Now I "only" live 500 miles away, and I haven't seen them once this year.

...and believe it or not. I actually like my parents. Just not living with or near them.
 
2013-08-19 02:16:30 AM  

OgreMagi: bbfreak: Hey Subby, go fark yourself. America's youth is the largest unemployed age group in this country, its hard to have the money for a car if you can't afford one. Those that do have jobs, are underemployed, and being paid peanuts. Yet their employers make it pretty impossible to have more than one job, because they want you to be flexible. All of which doesn't really make it possible for you to not only afford a car but climb out of poverty, but screw those people right? I mean, if you didn't go to college you're just a loser who deserves to be a useless peon right Subby? Then you can justify being in debt because of your college degree while you work at a company for the next 30 to 40 years of your life.

The youth of America are being farked, and farked hard. Don't be surprised when they finally get tired of this shiat.

I was going to mention that.  Also, those underemployed young workers have crushing student loan debt they now have to pay off.  A car is simply not feasible.  I blame our school system.  Everyone was told, "you're a loser if you don't get a college degree."  And for most, the only way to go to college was with a student loan.  Meanwhile, that loser who got a job working construction or plumbing just bought a second new car and is taking the family to Europe for their vacation.


This, but they aren't really losers at this point are they? There is real money in blue collar jobs these days. It's a shame that so many people look down on the folks that keep things running.
 
2013-08-19 02:17:49 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: ArmednHammered: Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.

WHAT! I could have gotten The Clash for my clunker? Son of  Biatch did I miss a deal!
What the Clash might have looked like...

[i773.photobucket.com image 287x176]

You sir are brilliant : )


Thanks! ;-)
 
2013-08-19 02:19:51 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: you're still a d+ck

upload.wikimedia.org

 
2013-08-19 02:20:07 AM  

p51d007: I'm in my 50's.  Started out with a 69 Ford Galaxie 500 fastback, 400CI, 4bbl.  Gas was 52 cents, 22 gallon tank.
It was a used car.  Kept it until I got out of college, swapped it for a 3 year old LTD, reliable transportation.
Saved, got a 1 year old Ford EXP for fun.  Save some more and then started buying Mustangs.
Had an 85, 89, 95, 99 and still have my 2011.  Start out buying a good used car, not a damn new one.
Then, if you want a new one, so be it, but a program car is the best bang for the buck.  The minute you drive
a new one off the lot, they DROP in price.  Urban dwellers in the BIG cities, most of the time don't really
"need" a car, but out here in the midwest, you pretty much have to have one.


Everyones needs are different. I buy a brand new car about every seven years. I bought my current truck at year-end closeout last November on a great deal. It already has over 30,000 miles, and will see about 40 to 50,000 miles a year. The goal is to keep it for 350,000 miles or so.
 
2013-08-19 02:20:32 AM  
Poor people are stupid, why don't they stop spending so much money all the time?

Poor people suck, why don't they get off their ass and buy cars?

Poor people are stupid, why don't they consolidate housing and live cheaper?

Poor people suck, why do they stay at their parents' residence for longer than we did as kids?

Poor people are stupid, why don't they get a job?

Poor are stupid, why do they ask for enough money to afford a car and housing when they are working entry-level and service industry jobs that don't deserve enough money to live on? Assuming they can get those, now that the average age of fast food workers is over thirty because the stupid people who lost their jobs in the downturn weren't smart enough to land better jobs.  Bunch of lazy scum, the lot of them, right?


What is the overlap between these various comment styles I see on fark, I wonder? And how many shop at walmart for the low prices subsidized by our taxes that help them remain fed, housed, and clothed for their services?
 
2013-08-19 02:20:37 AM  

JorgiX: As a teen, I am getting a kick of this thread. The disconnect between what was reality decades ago and what it is now is immense, but what seems even more alarming is that some people's perception has not changed at all.

To start, cars are not as cheap as they used to be. I do not have empirical data to support Cash for Clunkers as the reason, but it is clear that it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000.

Part-time jobs are not as plentiful as they were before. Sure, you had three jobs in high school and could afford an old car and maybe even a place to live. Well now in a ton of markets you are not competing for those jobs with a bunch of teens, you are also competing with people that were pushed out of their jobs by the recession and have as many years in experience as you living on this planet. I don't blame hiring managers for choosing them since they don't only have more experience, but are a much steadier source of labor when you consider that they might be stuck there for a while and are not leaving for college or the military any time soon. Multiple jobs are almost a thing of the past in some particularly hit regions.

The cost of things has risen astronomically faster than wages. This obviously affects everyone, but young people might be the group that has been hit the hardest. Again, I do not have any empirical data to support this, but it sure seems that way. The cost of college continues to rise, aid is not as comprehensive as it was before, and other things particularly relevant to  young people (technology, clothing, student housing, etc.)  continue to rise in price. Couple that to the lack of jobs, and the fact that you have never lived to work during the good times and hence you have no savings, and the picture becomes quite dire.

Paid internships are increasingly harder to come by. Even large companies in lucrative sectors like finance and technology keep making intern positions unpaid and still getting a record number of applicants. Students just want to get whatever they can on their resume hoping it will pay off in the future, and employers keep getting more and more out of free labor. Apprenticeships are also almost impossible to come by on technical sectors, but that's just from what I hear from friends that went that route.

This isn't meant as a "my generation has it harder than yours" since I understand every generation has its own set of challenges. Just understand times change and what some of you lived may not be the reality a different generation is living. I have been extremely lucky to have passed most of these hardships, so far anyway, but the overwhelming majority of my peers are not being so lucky. Not by a long shot.


All I hear is "whaaaah!"

Life's no breeze for the people supporting their mooching kids, but no one cares about them. What do they need a retirement plan for when they can support their grown kid that can't support him or herself?
 
2013-08-19 02:21:03 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: ArmednHammered: Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.

WHAT! I could have gotten The Clash for my clunker? Son of  Biatch did I miss a deal!
What the Clash might have looked like...

[i773.photobucket.com image 287x176]

You sir are brilliant : )


How funny, I really typed "Clash." Many years ago, I had to play "chaperone" for the members of The Clash in Los Angeles. They were doing a publicity event, and my job was to keep them out of trouble for the day.
 
2013-08-19 02:21:06 AM  
The big difference, which the article failed to touch on, is the cost of car insurance.

Forty years ago, you could buy yourself some cheap junker, work on it yourself or have friends or family work on it to keep it going, using parts from a junk yard if need be.  Gas was cheap, and it didn't cost much to keep a car going if you didn't drive it much.  Insurance was not mandatory, and so if you were poor, you didn't have any.

Now, the cost of insurance puts a stop to that whole thing for anyone who has little money.  If you can only afford a $600 car, how will you afford the $2000+ per year for auto insurance that a young beginning driver (especially male driver) would have to pay?  Not to mention the fact that gas is much more expensive than it used to be (even when figuring in inflation).

The first car I bought, in the mid 80's, cost me $150, gas was $1 per gallon, and I didn't need to have insurance.  Today's teens don't have that option.
 
2013-08-19 02:21:19 AM  

Matthew Keene: tinfoil-hat maggie: you're still a d+ck

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x569]


Close, but no cigar for you!
 
2013-08-19 02:21:59 AM  

Harry_Seldon: E5bie: Several times my husband has brought home 200 lbs of groceries loaded into a bike trailer designed for 2 infants.

Those must be some huge infants. Hope everything sprung back okay.


Babies had grown out of it by then. And I never liked him toting them through city traffic in that contraption anyway.
 
2013-08-19 02:22:31 AM  

Catlike Typist: There are some parts of the country where a car is more of a liability than an asset.  Try parking in San Francisco... if that's not expensive enough for you, try parking in Oakland; the east bay has a disturbingly disproportionate number of parked-car fires.

Don't worry, everyone will buy a car when they need some place to retire live when they're too old and broken to work anymore.


Though here in the Valley, I couldn't imagine going without a car.  You can't farking get anywhere.  My car's in the shop and it's farking impossible to do anything.

Honestly, a lot of what is does is defeat competition.  You don't go to the cheapest grocery store (3 miles away).  You go to the ONLY grocery store .7 miles away and get your ONE BAG of groceries because that's all that fits on your rack.

If you want to do something that's not in your immediate area (defined as 2-4 mile radius, depending on speed and ability to get sweaty), well, you're just farked.  You can spend up to several hours taking multiple buses to get there (though Caltrain makes an OK spine, keeping in mind that it only comes once an hour) since the buses come once an hour, aren't timed transfers, and only go 5 MPH, or you can mooch a ride.  And you WILL be dripping sweat all day long.

Screw it.  I want my car.  I've got better things to do than spend hours getting everywhere.  Transit just isn't good enough.

/Though I will admit that the transit is OK for commuting IFF you're on Caltrain for both work AND home (which is a nice $3-500/bedroom rent increase), and shiatty for EVERYTHING ELSE.
//I'll also acknowledge that it's great to be getting in a ton of exercise biking 10 miles to work and 8 miles back.  Lost 9 pounds in 2 weeks.
 
2013-08-19 02:22:52 AM  

ArmednHammered: This, but they aren't really losers at this point are they? There is real money in blue collar jobs these days. It's a shame that so many people look down on the folks that keep things running.


I had a 5 year high-school reunion a few years back.

Old friend who had finished his plumbing apprenticeship asked what I was up to and I replied that I was studying to be a lawyer. He was impressed and noted that I was gonna make the big bucks.

I told him I still had 2 years of study and 20-80 days unpaid intern work ahead of me before I'd get a job paying a very basic wage working long hours.

He at least had the decency to look sheepish when he told me he'd already got a mortgage and was paying it off easily.
 
2013-08-19 02:24:08 AM  

Harry_Seldon: tinfoil-hat maggie: ArmednHammered: Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.

WHAT! I could have gotten The Clash for my clunker? Son of  Biatch did I miss a deal!
What the Clash might have looked like...

[i773.photobucket.com image 287x176]

You sir are brilliant : )

How funny, I really typed "Clash." Many years ago, I had to play "chaperone" for the members of The Clash in Los Angeles. They were doing a publicity event, and my job was to keep them out of trouble for the day.


Nice, but how the hell did you manage that without a private army? ;-)
 
2013-08-19 02:25:02 AM  
I've only had four cars in my life.

Sold one, wiped one out, one drove off in the night without me in it.

Still have my trusty POS truck.  Nobody wants to buy it, nobody wants to steal it, and nobody's stupid enough to get in its way.
 
2013-08-19 02:25:06 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: While I agree with you. I'd just like to tell a story about my grandfather. He once worked for a company that you would be fired if you owned a car., because the company knew they didn't paying enough to afford one and so they must be stealing from someone. True story,I'm not sure what year that was in.


1. Was this in the United States?
2. If so, I find your story hard to believe unless your grandfather was talking about a time before Henry Ford.

/not calling YOU a liar.  Possibly saying your grandfather liked to tell uphill-both-ways stories while tying on his onion...
 
2013-08-19 02:26:21 AM  
When my daughters are old enough to drive, I will likely give them each an old clunker for the simple reason that they can maintain a social life without relying on any male acquaintances for transportation. As I guy who was amongst the few with a vehicle in high school, I know how easy that is to leverage - and more importantly, how advantageous it is to have the means to leave unhealthy environments.
 
2013-08-19 02:30:34 AM  
OgreMagi:
And for most, the only way to go to college was with a student loan.  Meanwhile, that loser who got a job working construction or plumbing just bought a second new car and is taking the family to Europe for their vacation.  is building back their savings after surviving 2009 and 2010.
 
2013-08-19 02:30:37 AM  

JorgiX: As a teen, I am getting a kick of this thread. The disconnect between what was reality decades ago and what it is now is immense, but what seems even more alarming is that some people's perception has not changed at all.

To start, cars are not as cheap as they used to be. I do not have empirical data to support Cash for Clunkers as the reason, but it is clear that it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000.

Part-time jobs are not as plentiful as they were before. Sure, you had three jobs in high school and could afford an old car and maybe even a place to live. Well now in a ton of markets you are not competing for those jobs with a bunch of teens, you are also competing with people that were pushed out of their jobs by the recession and have as many years in experience as you living on this planet. I don't blame hiring managers for choosing them since they don't only have more experience, but are a much steadier source of labor when you consider that they might be stuck there for a while and are not leaving for college or the military any time soon. Multiple jobs are almost a thing of the past in some particularly hit regions.

The cost of things has risen astronomically faster than wages. This obviously affects everyone, but young people might be the group that has been hit the hardest. Again, I do not have any empirical data to support this, but it sure seems that way. The cost of college continues to rise, aid is not as comprehensive as it was before, and other things particularly relevant to  young people (technology, clothing, student housing, etc.)  continue to rise in price. Couple that to the lack of jobs, and the fact that you have never lived to work during the good times and hence you have no savings, and the picture becomes quite dire.

Paid internships are increasingly harder to come by. Even large companies in lucrative sectors like finance and technology keep making intern positions unpaid and still getting a record ...


Stop trying to introduce reality-based thinking based on the way things currently are into this thread! Boomers want to whine about how millennials are supposedly moochers for not magically taking advantage of opportunities that aren't there anymore, not listen to reasoned arguments.
 
2013-08-19 02:30:38 AM  

2chris2: The big difference, which the article failed to touch on, is the cost of car insurance.

Forty years ago, you could buy yourself some cheap junker, work on it yourself or have friends or family work on it to keep it going, using parts from a junk yard if need be.  Gas was cheap, and it didn't cost much to keep a car going if you didn't drive it much.  Insurance was not mandatory, and so if you were poor, you didn't have any.

Now, the cost of insurance puts a stop to that whole thing for anyone who has little money.  If you can only afford a $600 car, how will you afford the $2000+ per year for auto insurance that a young beginning driver (especially male driver) would have to pay?  Not to mention the fact that gas is much more expensive than it used to be (even when figuring in inflation).

The first car I bought, in the mid 80's, cost me $150, gas was $1 per gallon, and I didn't need to have insurance.  Today's teens don't have that option.


Insurance drops pretty fast once you have enough years driving under your belt.  The first car I bought on my own the monthly insurance payment was higher than the car payment. I was able to find a cheaper company, but it was still high.  Now, my car insurance is negligible.  Like credit, insurance is more expensive if you don't have a history of good behavior with it. You'll need to bite the bullet at some point and establish yourself.
 
2013-08-19 02:31:16 AM  

smells_like_meat: I bought my first car at 21. A Toyota Land Cruiser 4x4..


I bought mine too at 21.... a 1986 Renault GTA.

/really wish I still had that clunker.
 
2013-08-19 02:34:12 AM  

OgreMagi: Meanwhile, that loser who got a job working construction or plumbing just bought a second new car and is taking the family to Europe for their vacation.


Think about how many plumbers graduated from your high school class.

Now think about what they'd get paid if there were twice as many, getting half the hours and with wages pushed down significantly by the competition for jobs.

Given that not once in my life have I needed the services of a tradesman and been unable to find one who could do what I wanted, when I wanted it done (give or take a day of course), I have to strongly question whether it is such a great panacea to the wage problem for everyone to have a tradeskill.  No matter what the average wage in the country is, the amount of plumbing that needs to be done is going to remain fairly stable, so it isn't like businesses that revolve around consumption of things people want instead of things people need.  With that stuff, the more everyone gets paid, the more they buy. Even if the country was doing 20% better, it is unlikely we'd see a 20% increase in toilets or sinks.

OgreMagi: /no, I'm not calling for the people's control of the factor. That's the biggest circle of suck


Are you calling for less people's control of the factor, as you put it?  Like, no or lower minimum wage perhaps, lower safety standards in the workplace, fewer worker protections, and/or a reduction in safety net? Because if you aren't calling for more, then what makes this spot we are at now some type of sweet spot?

I'm just curious.
 
2013-08-19 02:35:36 AM  

JorgiX: it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000



The first hundred of 2500 found on Minneapolis CraigsList search $999.00 and under (some are parts).

1 - 100 Aug 19 - 2000 hyundai sonata - $800 (apple valley) pic

Aug 19 - 1998 ford e-150 - $950 (pine city)
Aug 19 - 1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer - $1 (Farmington Mn) pic

Aug 19 - Ford 1ton Front Dana 60 - $800 (Anoka county) pic

Aug 19 - 1998 CHEVY VENTURE VAN RUNS EXCELLENT MUST SELL ASAP!!! - $950 (Burnsville) pic

Aug 18 - 2003 Buick Rendevous $4200 - pic

Aug 18 - 1995 Toyota Camry - $500 (Brooklyn Park, MN) pic

Aug 18 - 1999 trans am v8 ls1 Loadedw/extras 80k - pic

Aug 18 - 2001 chevy tahoe 4x4 make offer - pic

Aug 18 - 88 Ciera Mechanics Special - $500 (StPaul) pic

Aug 18 - Subaru Legacy Station Wagon 1991, MUST SELL!!! - $800 (White Bear Lake) pic

Aug 18 - 1970 GTO JUDGE PROJECT CAR - (YANKTON,SD) pic

Aug 18 - 2001 Dodge Durango - (Monticello)
Aug 18 - Jeep like on mash CJ 3A? - $500 (out of town) pic

Aug 18 - WTB 350z - $1 (Anywhere)
Aug 18 - 1999 Monte Carlo,... $ 1,500.O.B.O> - (Baldwin, Wi) pic

Aug 18 - mercury sable - $750 (white bear lake) pic

Aug 18 - 73 vw bug/beetle - $600 (Hutchinson)
Aug 18 - 1999 Mercury Mountaineer V8, Leather Interior, AC Works - $795 (Cottage Grove) pic

Aug 18 - TRADE or sell my 01 cadillac sts for 98 or newer firebird. - $1 (Elk River) pic

Aug 18 - 1996 a6 audi quattro - $500 (falcon hts) map

Aug 18 - 04 Suzuki Forenza 2250o/b - (Coon Rapids)
Aug 18 - 1000 lb capacity Trailer, folds for storage - $325 (St. Paul) pic map

Aug 18 - 96 grand am gt for trade - (Andover)
Aug 18 - 97 jeep grand cherokee for trade - (western wi)
Aug 18 - 95-99 GS Mitsubishi Eclipse Part Out - $1 (North Mankato) pic

Aug 18 - 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee for Sale - (Shakopee )
Aug 18 - 1999 GMC Sierra Ext Cab 4x4 - $1 (Hutchinson) pic

Aug 18 - 97 Geo Metro - $650 (montrose) pic

Aug 18 - 1992 Toyota Corolla 5sp - $600 (Somerset, WI) pic

Aug 18 - Set of 4 Firestone Truck Tires w/ Rims - $250 (Osceola, WI) pic

Aug 18 - 98 civic, 4dr, manual for sale/trade - $1 (Miineapolis) pic

Aug 18 - 1995 Ford F150 - $800 (Northfield MN) pic

Aug 18 - 1994 Buick Lesabre - $999 (Monticello) pic

Aug 18 - 1988 ford derby car.. - $750 (Gaylord) pic

Aug 18 - 1997 Oldsmobile Aurora 800obo/trade? - $799 (Belle Plaine) pic

Aug 18 - 1995 Mazda Millenia - $550 (White Bear LK) pic

Aug 18 - Trade Polaris RZR for Silverado - (South Metro) pic

Aug 18 - TRADE FOR MUSTANG GT LOOK!!! any year - $1 (everywhere) pic

Aug 18 - 2000 Peterbilt 379 xhood - (North of Cities) pic

Aug 18 - 1973 opel gt 4 speed mini vette - $45 (hudson/new richmond) pic

Aug 18 - 1980 Chevrolet LUV 4X4 - (Clayton Wi) pic

Aug 18 - 2007 International 9400 - (North of Cities) pic

Aug 18 - 2000 Chrysler Sebring Limited Convertible - $1 (Austin) pic

Aug 18 - Minivan 2000 Pontiac Montana - $750 (Elk River) pic

Aug 18 - REPAIRABLE WANTED - $500 (metro)
Aug 18 - 1983 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz - $800 pic

Aug 18 - Styled Steel Wheels - $750 (Maple Grove, MN) pic

Aug 18 - Super wide tires - $99 (South metro) pic

Aug 18 - 1993 Dodge Dakota 91K miles. - $800 (Eau Claire) pic

Aug 18 - Ladder Rack for Truck - $400 (South Mpls) pic map

Aug 18 - 1973 Super Beetle-Convertible - (Champlin/Elk River) pic

Aug 18 - 1996 Pontiac Sunfire, newer tires! - $575 (SW Minneapolis) pic

Aug 18 - 1992 Ford Taurus, Great Car Solid Motor - $500 (Rockford) pic

Aug 18 - 97 Acura CL 3.0 (Black) - $800 (Robbinsdale) pic

Aug 18 - 2004 Toyota Sienna 89,000 miles! Extras!!! - (Robbinsdale) pic

Aug 18 - jeep cj 7 - pic

Aug 18 - 03 ESCALADE BLACK 12k obo - (Central Mn) pic

Aug 18 - 01 mazda tribute. - $1 (st paul mn) pic

Aug 18 - 2007 Chevy Aveo LS - (Lakeville) pic

Aug 18 - 97 cavailier z24 - $850 (farmington) pic

Aug 18 - 09 - 12 Dodge Ram Front Bumper - $350 pic

Aug 18 - '85 Monte Carlo w/ Hydrolics - (Duluth) pic

Aug 18 - Pick-up Topper F150 6 1/21 Ft. - $400 (Brooklyn Center) pic map

Aug 18 - 2000 Pontiac Grand Am - $800 (Shakopee, MN) pic

Aug 18 - 1993 ford taurus - $700 (white bear lake ) pic

Aug 18 - 2002 Hyundai Santa fe $3500 - pic

Aug 18 - 1986 CHEVY 1500 PICK-UP - (ST. PAUL) pic

Aug 18 - 94 chev 1/2 ton - $350 (Dalbo/milaca)
Aug 18 - 96 Honda accord cheap!!!! - $600 (South metro) pic

Aug 18 - Kia rio - pic

Aug 18 - wanted accords or civics that have fuel leaks - $1 (minneapolis)
Aug 18 - 1999 Chevy Tahoe - (Crystal) pic

Aug 18 - wanted 2002-2004 Tacoma reg. cab 4x4 - (Mn. Sd.Wi or Ia) pic

Aug 18 - 1951 GMC TRUCK - (CENTRAL, MN) pic

Aug 18 - 1993 Honda Accord LX - $900 (Coon Rapids) pic

Aug 18 - 1962 Thunderbird - $950 (Big Lake) pic

Aug 18 - 2003 KIA RIO CINCO - $850 (SAINT PAUL)
Aug 18 - 1999 dodge ram 1500 - (north saint paul) pic

Aug 18 - Mazdaspeed 3 - $1 pic

Aug 18 - 2002 vw passat glx - (milaca) pic

Aug 18 - 1991 Pontiac GTA Trans AM - (Ham Lake) pic

Aug 18 - 94 Grand Voyager - $750 (Mora)
Aug 18 - 1998 Chevy S-10 ext cab - $900 (Grantsburg,WI) pic map

Aug 18 - Buick Regal Grand Sport priced to sell!! - $725 (minneapolis) pic map

Aug 18 - 98 kenworth lowboy - (swmn) pic

Aug 18 - 1991 Mercury Capri convertible. Low Miles - (Farmington) pic

Aug 18 - 2000 Buick Lasabre Limited - $700 (S. MPLS) pic

Aug 18 - 1990 TOYOTA COROLLA/PARTING OUT - $500 (MANKATO MN) pic

Aug 18 - 95 E350 CUTAWAY CHASSIS - $600 (MANKATO MN) pic

Aug 18 - LEASE CAMRY 2012 LE - $226 (WOODBURY)
Aug 18 - 1998 Dodge Stratus - $750 (Robbinsdale) pic

Aug 18 - 2001 Malibu 140000 need it gone today - $900 (Lakeville )
Aug 18 - 1997 GMC Suburban K2500 4x4 - $900 (Anoka/Andover) pic

Aug 18 - Make an offer - pic

Aug 18 - 1997 Chrysler Concorde - $450 (Wyoming, MN) pic

Aug 18 - 1996 geo prizm/ Toyota corolla (low miles) cold AC - $975 (Anoka) pic

Aug 18 - Ford F150 Truck -NO TITLE -RUNS / DRIVES-2WD Topper PARTS / SCRAP - $350 (Albertville) pic

Aug 18 - 1989 FOXBODY MUSTANG - $700 (nmetro)
Aug 18 - 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan - $795 (savage) pic
 
2013-08-19 02:37:53 AM  

bborchar: JorgiX: As a teen, I am getting a kick of this thread. The disconnect between what was reality decades ago and what it is now is immense, but what seems even more alarming is that some people's perception has not changed at all.

To start, cars are not as cheap as they used to be. I do not have empirical data to support Cash for Clunkers as the reason, but it is clear that it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000.

Part-time jobs are not as plentiful as they were before. Sure, you had three jobs in high school and could afford an old car and maybe even a place to live. Well now in a ton of markets you are not competing for those jobs with a bunch of teens, you are also competing with people that were pushed out of their jobs by the recession and have as many years in experience as you living on this planet. I don't blame hiring managers for choosing them since they don't only have more experience, but are a much steadier source of labor when you consider that they might be stuck there for a while and are not leaving for college or the military any time soon. Multiple jobs are almost a thing of the past in some particularly hit regions.

The cost of things has risen astronomically faster than wages. This obviously affects everyone, but young people might be the group that has been hit the hardest. Again, I do not have any empirical data to support this, but it sure seems that way. The cost of college continues to rise, aid is not as comprehensive as it was before, and other things particularly relevant to  young people (technology, clothing, student housing, etc.)  continue to rise in price. Couple that to the lack of jobs, and the fact that you have never lived to work during the good times and hence you have no savings, and the picture becomes quite dire.

Paid internships are increasingly harder to come by. Even large companies in lucrative sectors like finance and technology keep making intern positions unpaid and still getting ...


To start, my points were referring to independent young people. And of course it is no breeze, I mentioned folks being pushed out of their regular jobs during the recession and having to resort to minimum wage jobs usually thought of as starter jobs for teens. This places an obvious strain on the ability of young people to get jobs and they have to stay "mooching" off their parents for longer than they desire in many cases. Has it ever occurred to you that some people that actively look for jobs cannot get them? But sure, go ahead and think of this as just whining from a lazy, entitled young person.
 
2013-08-19 02:38:23 AM  

harm dealer: ArmednHammered: This, but they aren't really losers at this point are they? There is real money in blue collar jobs these days. It's a shame that so many people look down on the folks that keep things running.

I had a 5 year high-school reunion a few years back.

Old friend who had finished his plumbing apprenticeship asked what I was up to and I replied that I was studying to be a lawyer. He was impressed and noted that I was gonna make the big bucks.

I told him I still had 2 years of study and 20-80 days unpaid intern work ahead of me before I'd get a job paying a very basic wage working long hours.

He at least had the decency to look sheepish when he told me he'd already got a mortgage and was paying it off easily.


Hope you do well, I never spent a day in college and I can fix pretty much anything in my house,  whether it's electrical or mechanical. Fixed a computer monitor last week, cost me $3.00 in parts and 40 minutes in time. Work hard, I may be looking for a lawyer soon and wouldn't mind sending some money to a fellow farker.
 
2013-08-19 02:40:02 AM  

Smackledorfer: OgreMagi: Meanwhile, that loser who got a job working construction or plumbing just bought a second new car and is taking the family to Europe for their vacation.

Think about how many plumbers graduated from your high school class.

Now think about what they'd get paid if there were twice as many, getting half the hours and with wages pushed down significantly by the competition for jobs.

Given that not once in my life have I needed the services of a tradesman and been unable to find one who could do what I wanted, when I wanted it done (give or take a day of course), I have to strongly question whether it is such a great panacea to the wage problem for everyone to have a tradeskill.  No matter what the average wage in the country is, the amount of plumbing that needs to be done is going to remain fairly stable, so it isn't like businesses that revolve around consumption of things people want instead of things people need.  With that stuff, the more everyone gets paid, the more they buy. Even if the country was doing 20% better, it is unlikely we'd see a 20% increase in toilets or sinks.

OgreMagi: /no, I'm not calling for the people's control of the factor. That's the biggest circle of suck

Are you calling for less people's control of the factor, as you put it?  Like, no or lower minimum wage perhaps, lower safety standards in the workplace, fewer worker protections, and/or a reduction in safety net? Because if you aren't calling for more, then what makes this spot we are at now some type of sweet spot?

I'm just curious.


That guy who got a job in construction or a plumber is likely up to his eyeballs in debt if not bankrupt with ruined credit and facing foreclosure if he happened to live in an area where the construction industry took a nosedive after the real estate collapse.
 
2013-08-19 02:43:48 AM  

TomD9938: JorgiX: it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000


The first hundred of 2500 found on Minneapolis CraigsList search $999.00 and under (some are parts).

1 - 100 Aug 19 - 2000 hyundai sonata - $800 (apple valley) pic

Aug 19 - 1998 ford e-150 - $950 (pine city)
Aug 19 - 1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer - $1 (Farmington Mn) pic

Aug 19 - Ford 1ton Front Dana 60 - $800 (Anoka county) pic

Aug 19 - 1998 CHEVY VENTURE VAN RUNS EXCELLENT MUST SELL ASAP!!! - $950 (Burnsville) pic

Aug 18 - 2003 Buick Rendevous $4200 - pic

Aug 18 - 1995 Toyota Camry - $500 (Brooklyn Park, MN) pic

Aug 18 - 1999 trans am v8 ls1 Loadedw/extras 80k - pic

Aug 18 - 2001 chevy tahoe 4x4 make offer - pic

Aug 18 - 88 Ciera Mechanics Special - $500 (StPaul) pic

Aug 18 - Subaru Legacy Station Wagon 1991, MUST SELL!!! - $800 (White Bear Lake) pic

Aug 18 - 1970 GTO JUDGE PROJECT CAR - (YANKTON,SD) pic

Aug 18 - 2001 Dodge Durango - (Monticello)
Aug 18 - Jeep like on mash CJ 3A? - $500 (out of town) pic

Aug 18 - WTB 350z - $1 (Anywhere)
Aug 18 - 1999 Monte Carlo,... $ 1,500.O.B.O> - (Baldwin, Wi) pic

Aug 18 - mercury sable - $750 (white bear lake) pic

Aug 18 - 73 vw bug/beetle - $600 (Hutchinson)
Aug 18 - 1999 Mercury Mountaineer V8, Leather Interior, AC Works - $795 (Cottage Grove) pic

Aug 18 - TRADE or sell my 01 cadillac sts for 98 or newer firebird. - $1 (Elk River) pic

Aug 18 - 1996 a6 audi quattro - $500 (falcon hts) map

Aug 18 - 04 Suzuki Forenza 2250o/b - (Coon Rapids)
Aug 18 - 1000 lb capacity Trailer, folds for storage - $325 (St. Paul) pic map

Aug 18 - 96 grand am gt for trade - (Andover)
Aug 18 - 97 jeep grand cherokee for trade - (western wi)
Aug 18 - 95-99 GS Mitsubishi Eclipse Part Out - $1 (North Mankato) pic

Aug 18 - 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee for Sale - (Shakopee )
Aug 18 - 1999 GMC Sierra Ext Cab 4x4 - $1 (Hutchinson) pic

Aug 18 - 97 Geo Metro - $650 (montrose) pic

Aug 18 - 1992 Toyot ...


A ton of those are either parts, do not list a price, or list the price for monthly payments off a dealer. Pretty sure a very good amount of those are not in driving condition meaning you still have to invest a substantial amount to get it running. Still, point taken. Not every place is as ridiculously expensive as California.
 
2013-08-19 02:44:02 AM  

numb3r5ev3n: Stop trying to introduce reality-based thinking based on the way things currently are into this thread! Boomers want to whine about how millennials are supposedly moochers for not magically taking advantage of opportunities that aren't there anymore, not listen to reasoned arguments.


As a 32 year old who was lucky enough to do well, I am stuck between those two views.  First, my advice to any individual is the crap the boomers say all the time: work harder, save more, cry less, you name it.  However, while that is the right move for any individual, it isn't going to do shiat to shrink the lower class or strengthen the middle class.  Those require society changes far beyond what an individual can do by out-competing those at his level. There are limited resources, and there always will be.  The amount of those resources relative to the number of people will change over time, of course, but anyone pretending that poor people increasing their workload will do a damn thing about the increasing consolidation of wealth in the hands of the very very few is pretty darn ignorant.

If the poor double their productivity, then the number the businesses will hire will be cut.  If they increase their hours, then those hours will come out of someone else's paycheck.  If a solid work ethic would change the world into a utopia, then we'd already live in one.
 
2013-08-19 02:44:09 AM  
As a 17 year old, we have to deal with a unique situation in American societal history that no previous generations had to contend with. We don't have the access to opportunities that our grandparents did, or the promise of high paying jobs out of high school, or the ability to get a higher education without taking out loans.

I tried to get a summer job, and the only one offered to me was a courier at my step-dad's real estate company. I would have been out walking during the hottest part of the day, and only making $15 per hour.

Excuse us if we're content to stay home and make an impact on the world through blogs and social media instead of working for slave wages so we can live some antiquated American dream.
 
2013-08-19 02:49:24 AM  

numb3r5ev3n: JorgiX: As a teen, I am getting a kick of this thread. The disconnect between what was reality decades ago and what it is now is immense, but what seems even more alarming is that some people's perception has not changed at all.

To start, cars are not as cheap as they used to be. I do not have empirical data to support Cash for Clunkers as the reason, but it is clear that it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000.

Part-time jobs are not as plentiful as they were before. Sure, you had three jobs in high school and could afford an old car and maybe even a place to live. Well now in a ton of markets you are not competing for those jobs with a bunch of teens, you are also competing with people that were pushed out of their jobs by the recession and have as many years in experience as you living on this planet. I don't blame hiring managers for choosing them since they don't only have more experience, but are a much steadier source of labor when you consider that they might be stuck there for a while and are not leaving for college or the military any time soon. Multiple jobs are almost a thing of the past in some particularly hit regions.

The cost of things has risen astronomically faster than wages. This obviously affects everyone, but young people might be the group that has been hit the hardest. Again, I do not have any empirical data to support this, but it sure seems that way. The cost of college continues to rise, aid is not as comprehensive as it was before, and other things particularly relevant to  young people (technology, clothing, student housing, etc.)  continue to rise in price. Couple that to the lack of jobs, and the fact that you have never lived to work during the good times and hence you have no savings, and the picture becomes quite dire.

Paid internships are increasingly harder to come by. Even large companies in lucrative sectors like finance and technology keep making intern positions unpaid and still getting a record ...

Stop trying to introduce reality-based thinking based on the way things currently are into this thread! Boomers want to whine about how millennials are supposedly moochers for not magically taking advantage of opportunities that aren't there anymore, not listen to reasoned arguments.


I'm 30, and the problem I have with the people a whole 6 years younger than me is that they think it's supposed to be easier because they have a degree. I graduated 7 years ado from college, where I worked one full time crap job to support myself. I had a terrible apartment, no Internet, no cable, and I paid for my rent, electricity (which, by leaving first thing in the morning and coming home after dark, I managed to keep around $20 a month), insurance, gas and all of my books. I remember filling out my tax return that year where I made $6K. For the entire year. That wasn't worth more than it is now. I moved with my boyfriend across the country where he found a decent job, but I couldn't find a job for 3 months because that was when the job losses were starting. I found a temp job that lasted 3 months before the company was bought out. Then I found another temp job that lasted 9 months before it was bought out. Then I found another temp job that lasted almost a year before they finally put me on a full time salary with decent money. This was 2009 when I finally was full time and it took me 2 years to find a stable, decent paying job. My husband was part of the govt pay freeze for several years, but once that was over, he finally got a promotion.

It was and still is really hard, but I never once thought of going back to my parents and asking for help.
 
2013-08-19 02:52:34 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I tried to get a summer job, and the only one offered to me was a courier at my step-dad's real estate company. I would have been out walking during the hottest part of the day, and only making $15 per hour.


Half the people in this area would kill for a job that pays that much, even part-time.
 
2013-08-19 02:53:34 AM  

Smackledorfer: tinfoil-hat maggie: While I agree with you. I'd just like to tell a story about my grandfather. He once worked for a company that you would be fired if you owned a car., because the company knew they didn't paying enough to afford one and so they must be stealing from someone. True story,I'm not sure what year that was in.

1. Was this in the United States?
2. If so, I find your story hard to believe unless your grandfather was talking about a time before Henry Ford.

/not calling YOU a liar.  Possibly saying your grandfather liked to tell uphill-both-ways stories while tying on his onion...


Yes it was in the US.
I can understand it being hard to believe but IIRC the company was Woolworrth and he started as a stock boy this was 1920's or so. By the 1930's he he did own a car he was in management then when the war broke out they couldn't afford it, they couldn't get new tires, so they gave up driving. He was too old to be drafted or join the military but he worked as as a coast watcher in Florida.
 
2013-08-19 02:56:07 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: As a 17 year old, we have to deal with a unique situation in American societal history that no previous generations had to contend with. We don't have the access to opportunities that our grandparents did, or the promise of high paying jobs out of high school, or the ability to get a higher education without taking out loans.

I tried to get a summer job, and the only one offered to me was a courier at my step-dad's real estate company. I would have been out walking during the hottest part of the day, and only making $15 per hour.

Excuse us if we're content to stay home and make an impact on the world through blogs and social media instead of working for slave wages so we can live some antiquated American dream.


I live in a small town. Recently, I walked with my young teens by the local school, which used to be K-12, and pointed out the stone engraved with the words, "GIFT OF THE CLASS OF 1937" and another metal plaque reading, "GIFT OF THE CLASS OF 1941". We talked for a while about it.
....
Know how I know you suck donkey balls?
 
2013-08-19 02:57:15 AM  

bborchar: they think it's supposed to be easier because they have a degree.


Why shouldn't it be easier to find a job, or easier to find one with greater pay, when you have a degree?  Think really hard before you answer, and realize that it is in reality easier to find a job and earn more pay by having a degree (even a filthy libby arts one, if the statistics I last read were correct).

bborchar: I remember filling out my tax return that year where I made $6K. For the entire year


Oh, you are a liar, nm then. That is what, less than 20 hours a week at 8 bucks an hour?  I thought you were working full time? And you lived in Japan for a year and tasmania for a summer, all while working full time crappy jobs just to get by and once coming in at a 6k year?


Something smells trolly to me. I give you a 0/10 and the recommendation that you don't change lures so many times during a thread. Give one bait and action a chance for a few minutes and a little drifting time to cover some area with that method.
 
2013-08-19 03:03:15 AM  

bborchar: numb3r5ev3n: JorgiX: As a teen, I am getting a kick of this thread. The disconnect between what was reality decades ago and what it is now is immense, but what seems even more alarming is that some people's perception has not changed at all.

To start, cars are not as cheap as they used to be. I do not have empirical data to support Cash for Clunkers as the reason, but it is clear that it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000.

Part-time jobs are not as plentiful as they were before. Sure, you had three jobs in high school and could afford an old car and maybe even a place to live. Well now in a ton of markets you are not competing for those jobs with a bunch of teens, you are also competing with people that were pushed out of their jobs by the recession and have as many years in experience as you living on this planet. I don't blame hiring managers for choosing them since they don't only have more experience, but are a much steadier source of labor when you consider that they might be stuck there for a while and are not leaving for college or the military any time soon. Multiple jobs are almost a thing of the past in some particularly hit regions.

The cost of things has risen astronomically faster than wages. This obviously affects everyone, but young people might be the group that has been hit the hardest. Again, I do not have any empirical data to support this, but it sure seems that way. The cost of college continues to rise, aid is not as comprehensive as it was before, and other things particularly relevant to  young people (technology, clothing, student housing, etc.)  continue to rise in price. Couple that to the lack of jobs, and the fact that you have never lived to work during the good times and hence you have no savings, and the picture becomes quite dire.

Paid internships are increasingly harder to come by. Even large companies in lucrative sectors like finance and technology keep making intern positions unpaid and s ...


I seriously admire people like you that gut it out the hard way. I really do. I lived in the bad part of an extremely dangerous town and literally had to fight my way out of there. My athletic career has opened chances for me and allowed me to live more comfortably these days, but it's not like anything was handed to me. If anything it was the other way around.

Here is the thing though, you worked a terrible job to get yourself through college. From what I read you went to college BEFORE the bad times, so that terrible job was still there. There is very good chance that AFTER the recession (when you were looking for a job after you graduated) that job was not there anymore and some college kid was left struggling. You know how far $6K would get you in the Bay Area for example? Maybe in the crappiest of apartments, or food on the table, but you have to make a choice. Oh yeah, and no table to put that food on.
 
2013-08-19 03:04:52 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I tried to get a summer job, and the only one offered to me was a courier at my step-dad's real estate company. I would have been out walking during the hottest part of the day, and only making $15 per hour.


You do realize that $15/hour just sucks as a person who has to pay rent, but it's pretty good as a person who can crash in their bedroom?

I was making $8/hour on the grounds crew of a golf course and I made $7,000 in profit (defined as "Bank Account after" - "Bank Account before") after taxes in 18 weeks of summer (Lots of OT of course, mostly because the course flooded every single Saturday in May and I worked lots of 16 hour Saturdays (on OT) and 60 hour weeks getting it fixed up).  I'm making $72K/year now and I'm still not at that point.  Heck, that's $21K/year in PROFIT.   I was making $30/hour + OT in Boston, didn't have a car, was living in a literally rat-infested apartment, and I STILL wasn't making that much in profit (Went up about $5K on the summer, blew $2500 on a new laptop to replace my failing one because I was a CS student).

$15/hour * 16 weeks * 40 hours  = $9,600.  I'm betting that you could have mooched a ride from your step-dad to work (so that a car was semi-necessary), done the exact same things I did and walked away with about the exact same amount of money I did.

 Now long-term, that job would've screwed you hard, since the more money you make, the less financial aid you get in college, but it's a nice temporary bonus.
 
2013-08-19 03:05:19 AM  

bborchar: numb3r5ev3n: JorgiX: As a teen, I am getting a kick of this thread. The disconnect between what was reality decades ago and what it is now is immense, but what seems even more alarming is that some people's perception has not changed at all.

To start, cars are not as cheap as they used to be. I do not have empirical data to support Cash for Clunkers as the reason, but it is clear that it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000.

Part-time jobs are not as plentiful as they were before. Sure, you had three jobs in high school and could afford an old car and maybe even a place to live. Well now in a ton of markets you are not competing for those jobs with a bunch of teens, you are also competing with people that were pushed out of their jobs by the recession and have as many years in experience as you living on this planet. I don't blame hiring managers for choosing them since they don't only have more experience, but are a much steadier source of labor when you consider that they might be stuck there for a while and are not leaving for college or the military any time soon. Multiple jobs are almost a thing of the past in some particularly hit regions.

The cost of things has risen astronomically faster than wages. This obviously affects everyone, but young people might be the group that has been hit the hardest. Again, I do not have any empirical data to support this, but it sure seems that way. The cost of college continues to rise, aid is not as comprehensive as it was before, and other things particularly relevant to  young people (technology, clothing, student housing, etc.)  continue to rise in price. Couple that to the lack of jobs, and the fact that you have never lived to work during the good times and hence you have no savings, and the picture becomes quite dire.

Paid internships are increasingly harder to come by. Even large companies in lucrative sectors like finance and technology keep making intern positions unpaid and s ...


Good for you. Here's a gold star. Not everyone's situation is the same. Sure, there are some folks who don't carry their own weight -  but not everyone falls under the heading of "entitled moocher"  because they have to ask for help at some point. You're making a lot of sweeping generalizations there, pal.

I have to agree with the persons earlier who said something to the effect of, "Why would a young person want to get into debt purchasing an asset of depreciating value?" It just seems like a racket if you have other options available.

/In my 30s, working in a steady IT position. I Didn't finish college. I'm thanking God every day that I didn't rack up as much debt as some of the folks I know.
//I went carless for a while.
/// It's no longer feasible in my current situation.
 
2013-08-19 03:05:33 AM  
Subby secretly remembers that time he caught a co-ed peeing on his lawn. He remembers it often and vigorously.
 
2013-08-19 03:08:15 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: As a 17 year old, we have to deal with a unique situation in American societal history that no previous generations had to contend with. We don't have the access to opportunities that our grandparents did, or the promise of high paying jobs out of high school, or the ability to get a higher education without taking out loans.

I tried to get a summer job, and the only one offered to me was a courier at my step-dad's real estate company. I would have been out walking during the hottest part of the day, and only making $15 per hour.

Excuse us if we're content to stay home and make an impact on the world through blogs and social media instead of working for slave wages so we can live some antiquated American dream.


Well done.
 
2013-08-19 03:12:14 AM  
My first car, 68 Mustang, cost me $1000. Many memories, and the first taste of freedom

forums.aaca.org
 
2013-08-19 03:14:25 AM  
The headline missing a word.
 
2013-08-19 03:16:40 AM  

quickdraw: Decades of propaganda aimed at making public transit seem like a desirable way to travel has finally paid off and now people complain about that too.


Unless you live in a town with good public trans. If only I worked within my city, I could do away with the car.
 
2013-08-19 03:17:49 AM  

Smackledorfer: bborchar: they think it's supposed to be easier because they have a degree.

Why shouldn't it be easier to find a job, or easier to find one with greater pay, when you have a degree?  Think really hard before you answer, and realize that it is in reality easier to find a job and earn more pay by having a degree (even a filthy libby arts one, if the statistics I last read were correct).

bborchar: I remember filling out my tax return that year where I made $6K. For the entire year

Oh, you are a liar, nm then. That is what, less than 20 hours a week at 8 bucks an hour?  I thought you were working full time? And you lived in Japan for a year and tasmania for a summer, all while working full time crappy jobs just to get by and once coming in at a 6k year?


Something smells trolly to me. I give you a 0/10 and the recommendation that you don't change lures so many times during a thread. Give one bait and action a chance for a few minutes and a little drifting time to cover some area with that method.


Japan- 2003, direct student exchange, since it was my major, and cost me no more than it did living in the states. I had a small stipend and a scholarship that paid for my round trip airfare.

Tasmania- 2004, oh, look at that- I had made friends in Japan and went and stayed with them the entire summer after my dad died. I charged my airfare and paid it off in about 6 months.

I made just over $6 an hour as a computer lab manager, but worked from 20-30 a week, which was considered full time on campus for students (we weren't allowed to work more). My sophomore year I had a second job, but I had to quit to go to Japan. I took out the minimum student loans for my tuition, and paid the rest if my expenses out of pocket. I ended up with less than 20K at the end of it, which is half paid off now, 7 years later. Could have completely paid it off, but we bought a house.

My apartment was in the crime laden area of town and cost me $260 a month. My car was a 1990 Buick, the same car I first bought in 1999 for $1000.

So no, I'm not trolling.
 
2013-08-19 03:19:36 AM  

evil saltine: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: As a 17 year old, we have to deal with a unique situation in American societal history that no previous generations had to contend with. We don't have the access to opportunities that our grandparents did, or the promise of high paying jobs out of high school, or the ability to get a higher education without taking out loans.

I tried to get a summer job, and the only one offered to me was a courier at my step-dad's real estate company. I would have been out walking during the hottest part of the day, and only making $15 per hour.

Excuse us if we're content to stay home and make an impact on the world through blogs and social media instead of working for slave wages so we can live some antiquated American dream.

Well done.


I have to agree, this is some nice trolling. I was thinking back to when I was 17. It was pretty tough in 1981. The US has been dealing with "stagflation" for years. Gas prices went through the roof. Interest rates were insane.  My father died that year from his 3 pack a day habit, and my mother never worked since she was a stay at home mother.

Point being is that every generation has their tough times. That doesn't diminish the current suck fest. I am just recalling that it was tough for me also.
 
2013-08-19 03:20:26 AM  

Twitch Boy: Wait until this generation finally gets jobs, then looks in the mirror and sees 35 staring them in the face and realizes they never got to live out their youth.

Buy stock in BMW and Just For Men.  You're going to be able to see the midlife crisis from space.


Have a job in a (potentially) high-paying career; outlook still bleak.

Sure, once I'm done with my grad program I'll be looking at $80k a year, but that still doesn't earn one much these days.
 
2013-08-19 03:23:48 AM  
Stop trying to introduce reality-based thinking based on the way things currently are into this thread! Boomers want to whine about how millennials are supposedly moochers for not magically taking advantage of opportunities that aren't there anymore, not listen to reasoned arguments.

And millennials want to whine about how boomers have all the jobs and all the money, when a lot of us aren't doing that well either. There's some reality for you, junior.
 
2013-08-19 03:26:12 AM  

Smackledorfer: OgreMagi: /no, I'm not calling for the people's control of the factor. That's the biggest circle of suck

Are you calling for less people's control of the factor, as you put it? Like, no or lower minimum wage perhaps, lower safety standards in the workplace, fewer worker protections, and/or a reduction in safety net? Because if you aren't calling for more, then what makes this spot we are at now some type of sweet spot?


Is your education so lacking that you don't recognize the phrase, "people's control of the factory" and what it means?  Well, in your defense I'll admit I got it slightly wrong.  It's "workers' control of the factory."  But same thing.
 
2013-08-19 03:28:00 AM  

Smackledorfer: numb3r5ev3n: Stop trying to introduce reality-based thinking based on the way things currently are into this thread! Boomers want to whine about how millennials are supposedly moochers for not magically taking advantage of opportunities that aren't there anymore, not listen to reasoned arguments.

As a 32 year old who was lucky enough to do well, I am stuck between those two views.  First, my advice to any individual is the crap the boomers say all the time: work harder, save more, cry less, you name it.  However, while that is the right move for any individual, it isn't going to do shiat to shrink the lower class or strengthen the middle class.  Those require society changes far beyond what an individual can do by out-competing those at his level. There are limited resources, and there always will be.  The amount of those resources relative to the number of people will change over time, of course, but anyone pretending that poor people increasing their workload will do a damn thing about the increasing consolidation of wealth in the hands of the very very few is pretty darn ignorant.

If the poor double their productivity, then the number the businesses will hire will be cut.  If they increase their hours, then those hours will come out of someone else's paycheck.  If a solid work ethic would change the world into a utopia, then we'd already live in one.


I think that those of us born on the line between Gen Xers and Millenials were the lastones to have some really good opportunities before everything went to shiat. I know that hard work and thrift counts for a lot, but those who are just coming of age have been shafted, and they know it. To quote The Comedian from Watchmen, "The American Dream came true. You're lookin'at it."
 
2013-08-19 03:31:43 AM  

bingethinker: Stop trying to introduce reality-based thinking based on the way things currently are into this thread! Boomers want to whine about how millennials are supposedly moochers for not magically taking advantage of opportunities that aren't there anymore, not listen to reasoned arguments.

And millennials want to whine about how boomers have all the jobs and all the money, when a lot of us aren't doing that well either. There's some reality for you, junior.


Lol "junior." I am in my 30s and have a decent job, thanks. I am sorry you aren't doing well either, but we came from a time when we had money and opportunities, and watched it all get gambled away. Stop yelling at clouds and go after the gamblers on wall st if you want things to change.
 
2013-08-19 03:31:57 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: As a 17 year old, we have to deal with a unique situation in American societal history that no previous generations had to contend with. We don't have the access to opportunities that our grandparents did, or the promise of high paying jobs out of high school, or the ability to get a higher education without taking out loans.

I tried to get a summer job, and the only one offered to me was a courier at my step-dad's real estate company. I would have been out walking during the hottest part of the day, and only making $15 per hour.

Excuse us if we're content to stay home and make an impact on the world through blogs and social media instead of working for slave wages so we can live some antiquated American dream.


Wait, $15 per hour? As a college-educated twentysomething, I'll take it!

/we all have to start somewhere
//you kinda sound like part of the problem
///look at minimum wage
////unless you're trolling, then well done
 
2013-08-19 03:32:58 AM  

bingethinker: Stop trying to introduce reality-based thinking based on the way things currently are into this thread! Boomers want to whine about how millennials are supposedly moochers for not magically taking advantage of opportunities that aren't there anymore, not listen to reasoned arguments.

And millennials want to whine about how boomers have all the jobs and all the money, when a lot of us aren't doing that well either. There's some reality for you, junior.


My parents have been laid off from more jobs than I can remember...every retirement package they ever had went to keeping the house payments going during unemployment. Many boomers are probably looking at the same situation.
 
2013-08-19 03:35:25 AM  

bingethinker: Stop trying to introduce reality-based thinking based on the way things currently are into this thread! Boomers want to whine about how millennials are supposedly moochers for not magically taking advantage of opportunities that aren't there anymore, not listen to reasoned arguments.

And millennials want to whine about how boomers have all the jobs and all the money, when a lot of us aren't doing that well either. There's some reality for you, junior.


As a good 'Murican, you should know opportunity does not equal outcome.
 
2013-08-19 03:37:52 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: As a 17 year old, we have to deal with a unique situation in American societal history that no previous generations had to contend with. We don't have the access to opportunities that our grandparents did, or the promise of high paying jobs out of high school, or the ability to get a higher education without taking out loans.

I tried to get a summer job, and the only one offered to me was a courier at my step-dad's real estate company. I would have been out walking during the hottest part of the day, and only making $15 per hour.

Excuse us if we're content to stay home and make an impact on the world through blogs and social media instead of working for slave wages so we can live some antiquated American dream.


www.jamspreader.com
 
2013-08-19 03:37:57 AM  
Dow Jones Doom, epic troll. Can't believe I got sucked in like that.
It sounded so real!
 
2013-08-19 03:40:49 AM  

quickdraw: Decades of propaganda aimed at making public transit seem like a desirable way to travel has finally paid off and now people complain about that too.


Decades of propaganda in support of public transit?

Are you aware of how much car companies spend annually on advertising?
 
2013-08-19 03:46:21 AM  

Doc Daneeka: quickdraw: Decades of propaganda aimed at making public transit seem like a desirable way to travel has finally paid off and now people complain about that too.

Decades of propaganda in support of public transit?

Are you aware of how much car companies spend annually on advertising?


Plus, no matter how much public transit propaganda there may be, if there isn't a system in place, no one is going to use it.

I'd be willing to walk a block or three to a station on my regular commute (perhaps a bit higher for occasional trips), and that distance again at the end point, provided I can catch a subway that arrives and departs every 15 minutes or less.  I'll be damned if I'm going to walk a mile to a bus station, sit on a bus for an hour because of stops, and then walk that far again on the other side though.

When public transport can get you there faster and cheaper than driving, it wins out.  When it can't, it loses most of its appeal.
 
2013-08-19 03:53:26 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: Doc Daneeka: quickdraw: Decades of propaganda aimed at making public transit seem like a desirable way to travel has finally paid off and now people complain about that too.

Decades of propaganda in support of public transit?

Are you aware of how much car companies spend annually on advertising?

Plus, no matter how much public transit propaganda there may be, if there isn't a system in place, no one is going to use it.

I'd be willing to walk a block or three to a station on my regular commute (perhaps a bit higher for occasional trips), and that distance again at the end point, provided I can catch a subway that arrives and departs every 15 minutes or less.  I'll be damned if I'm going to walk a mile to a bus station, sit on a bus for an hour because of stops, and then walk that far again on the other side though.

When public transport can get you there faster and cheaper than driving, it wins out.  When it can't, it loses most of its appeal.


This is what makes Portland so interesting. If you live in the right areas, you really don't need to use a car much. You may need a car, but you can easily adjust your living to minimize the need. I drive about 2000 miles a year in total (work, groceries, etc). I use the MAX train probably 1-3 week.
 
2013-08-19 03:54:08 AM  

bborchar: Smackledorfer: bborchar: they think it's supposed to be easier because they have a degree.

Why shouldn't it be easier to find a job, or easier to find one with greater pay, when you have a degree?  Think really hard before you answer, and realize that it is in reality easier to find a job and earn more pay by having a degree (even a filthy libby arts one, if the statistics I last read were correct).

bborchar: I remember filling out my tax return that year where I made $6K. For the entire year

Oh, you are a liar, nm then. That is what, less than 20 hours a week at 8 bucks an hour?  I thought you were working full time? And you lived in Japan for a year and tasmania for a summer, all while working full time crappy jobs just to get by and once coming in at a 6k year?


Something smells trolly to me. I give you a 0/10 and the recommendation that you don't change lures so many times during a thread. Give one bait and action a chance for a few minutes and a little drifting time to cover some area with that method.

Japan- 2003, direct student exchange, since it was my major, and cost me no more than it did living in the states. I had a small stipend and a scholarship that paid for my round trip airfare.

Tasmania- 2004, oh, look at that- I had made friends in Japan and went and stayed with them the entire summer after my dad died. I charged my airfare and paid it off in about 6 months.

I made just over $6 an hour as a computer lab manager, but worked from 20-30 a week, which was considered full time on campus for students (we weren't allowed to work more). My sophomore year I had a second job, but I had to quit to go to Japan. I took out the minimum student loans for my tuition, and paid the rest if my expenses out of pocket. I ended up with less than 20K at the end of it, which is half paid off now, 7 years later. Could have completely paid it off, but we bought a house.

My apartment was in the crime laden area of town and cost me $260 a month. My car was a 1990 Buick, the same car I first bought in 1999 for $1000.

So no, I'm not trolling.


You never asked anyone for help but you had a scholarship and mooched off friends in japan? What a rough life your full time job was. I am sure you worked full time in japan too right?

Ohhh and you consider 20-30 hours full time? Lol.

Worked my way through college myself. Sometimes put in fifty hours, and I still wouldn't think of responding to a list of the job reality in our economy with 'all I can hear is waaaah'.
 
2013-08-19 03:54:11 AM  

Sbdolan: Middle class really sucks now.


Middle class isn't what it used to be. Decades ago, a family could live comfortably on one salary, and you'd get an employer-provided pension so you wouldn't have to worry about retirement.

Nowadays, healthcare costs have skyrocketed, education costs have skyrocketed, transportation costs are higher, but middle class wages have stagnated (in fact, gone down taking inflation not account). A dual income is needed to make ends meet (which adds additional costs, like child care). And forget about a pension - better make sure that you're putting some money into a 401k, whether you can afford to do so or not.

A lot of people in this country think they're middle class, but they're really not. They're working class people living paycheck-to-paycheck and struggling just to get out of debt, much less get ahead in life.
 
2013-08-19 03:55:34 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: As a 17 year old, we have to deal with a unique situation in American societal history that no previous generations had to contend with. We don't have the access to opportunities that our grandparents did, or the promise of high paying jobs out of high school, or the ability to get a higher education without taking out loans.

I tried to get a summer job, and the only one offered to me was a courier at my step-dad's real estate company. I would have been out walking during the hottest part of the day, and only making $15 per hour.

Excuse us if we're content to stay home and make an impact on the world through blogs and social media instead of working for slave wages so we can live some antiquated American dream.


I'd love to find a job that paid $15 an hour.
 
2013-08-19 03:57:14 AM  
The problem with the economy is the consolidation of wealth in the hands of the few.  It simply can't function properly with the 1% investing in Chinese real estate instead of the poors and 'middle' classes spending money on services and products that have some sort of connection with the local economy.

Either we take it from them or make them spend their money at home. There is no other answer.
 
2013-08-19 03:58:37 AM  
In 2002 I turned sixteen. My Mormon father handed over the keys to his 1998 Oldsmobile Royal. White. The seats were old school "couch" seats. Huge car with lots of "leg room." I didn't behave very Mormon-like as a result. Good times...
 
2013-08-19 03:58:46 AM  

OgreMagi: Smackledorfer: OgreMagi: /no, I'm not calling for the people's control of the factor. That's the biggest circle of suck

Are you calling for less people's control of the factor, as you put it? Like, no or lower minimum wage perhaps, lower safety standards in the workplace, fewer worker protections, and/or a reduction in safety net? Because if you aren't calling for more, then what makes this spot we are at now some type of sweet spot?

Is your education so lacking that you don't recognize the phrase, "people's control of the factory" and what it means?  Well, in your defense I'll admit I got it slightly wrong.  It's "workers' control of the factory."  But same thing.


Oh. Factory. I was trying to riddle my way to wtf you meant by factor. My bad.

Between people, factor, and two a.m. I think a break is in order.

That said, your comment is still silly. There is plenty of room to regulate and tweak society without pulling the 'COMMUNISM ZOMG" card. Why jump to the hyperbole? Throwing around that card is as bad as godwinning.
 
2013-08-19 04:05:00 AM  

bborchar: bingethinker: Stop trying to introduce reality-based thinking based on the way things currently are into this thread! Boomers want to whine about how millennials are supposedly moochers for not magically taking advantage of opportunities that aren't there anymore, not listen to reasoned arguments.

And millennials want to whine about how boomers have all the jobs and all the money, when a lot of us aren't doing that well either. There's some reality for you, junior.

My parents have been laid off from more jobs than I can remember...every retirement package they ever had went to keeping the house payments going during unemployment. Many boomers are probably looking at the same situation.


Getting back on track:
While every gen has its trials, this thread started about cars, and I don't see how it is up for debate that the costs for buying them, running them, and paying for the things they take you to have gone up every decade while wages have been stagnant. It is common sense that fewer kids would buy one.

Hell I am not even that old and I've seen gas go through the roof and cars get harder and harder to grease-monkey. I can hardly diagnose and replace my pcm. Multiple shops couldn't properly diagnose that. My dad's cars could be fixed by him and his father most of the time.
 
2013-08-19 04:07:15 AM  

bborchar: Smackledorfer: bborchar: they think it's supposed to be easier because they have a degree.

Why shouldn't it be easier to find a job, or easier to find one with greater pay, when you have a degree?  Think really hard before you answer, and realize that it is in reality easier to find a job and earn more pay by having a degree (even a filthy libby arts one, if the statistics I last read were correct).

bborchar: I remember filling out my tax return that year where I made $6K. For the entire year

Oh, you are a liar, nm then. That is what, less than 20 hours a week at 8 bucks an hour?  I thought you were working full time? And you lived in Japan for a year and tasmania for a summer, all while working full time crappy jobs just to get by and once coming in at a 6k year?


Something smells trolly to me. I give you a 0/10 and the recommendation that you don't change lures so many times during a thread. Give one bait and action a chance for a few minutes and a little drifting time to cover some area with that method.

Japan- 2003, direct student exchange, since it was my major, and cost me no more than it did living in the states. I had a small stipend and a scholarship that paid for my round trip airfare.

Tasmania- 2004, oh, look at that- I had made friends in Japan and went and stayed with them the entire summer after my dad died. I charged my airfare and paid it off in about 6 months.

I made just over $6 an hour as a computer lab manager, but worked from 20-30 a week, which was considered full time on campus for students (we weren't allowed to work more). My sophomore year I had a second job, but I had to quit to go to Japan. I took out the minimum student loans for my tuition, and paid the rest if my expenses out of pocket. I ended up with less than 20K at the end of it, which is half paid off now, 7 years later. Could have completely paid it off, but we bought a house.

My apartment was in the crime laden area of town and cost me $260 a month. My car was a 1990 Buick, the same car I first bought in 1999 for $1000.

So no, I'm not trolling.


Psst, that is not a full-time job on the real world you seem to have a problem with. And again, try living on $6K in the Bay Area, or finding a $260 apartment.
 
2013-08-19 04:07:16 AM  
I have a buddy who does a "Cannonball Run" race to Vegas each year and one of the rules is that you can't spend more than 2k on the car.
 
2013-08-19 04:16:31 AM  
JorgiX: Psst, that is not a full-time job on the real world you seem to have a problem with. And again, try living on $6K in the Bay Area, or finding a $260 apartment.

This one time I toured a $260 apartment. It was... memorable. And that was the day I decided to stop being poor.
 
2013-08-19 04:24:01 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?


you do have hands?  most grocery stores have bags with handles.  if it's something particularly heavy, you can actually (politely) ask to have it double-bagged...  if you're really lucky you can just wave a magic wand and float everything home.
 
2013-08-19 04:26:22 AM  

Jacobin: Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?

Just push them home in the shopping cart


you know that's theft, right?
 
2013-08-19 04:32:20 AM  

cynicalminion: Jacobin: Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?

Just push them home in the shopping cart

you know that's theft, right?


Lots of car-less urbanites own their own collapsible carts for the express purpose of grocery shopping.

I've seen this question before, but I never had a problem getting groceries when I lived in Manhattan with no car. Just made several small stops per week for a few things each time, rather than a big grocery run once a week. Carrying a few bags a couple blocks is not that hard if you are in any kind of decent shape.

Also, there's FreshDirect, plus a lot of supermarkets offer home delivery, so that's an option too.
 
2013-08-19 04:35:34 AM  
What bothers me the most about the economy is that people like me, who don't want or need much, still can't get what little we desire.

I live in a shed with an air conditioner and a solid internet connection. I'm mostly okay with this. I've never had much and I've learned to make do with what I've got. Only thing I'd really change is location and choice of food.

I do have a job cleaning condos for the rich and frivolous. Which I get all kinds of ridicule for. But it's the only job I was able to find after nearly two years of looking. I make roughly $300 a week, which is the most I've ever made from a job. When I worked retail I was lucky to walk away with half that.  But it's still not enough. Bills keep getting higher, and god damn I hope I never have any medical emergency because if I do I'm farked. I'm waiting for the day when a doc tells me I have cancer and I get to just go home and die.

I have to live off of spaghetti-o's and ramen because that $300 a week is eaten up by student debt and various bills. The only luxury I allow myself is cigarettes, because fark if I'm going to live a long and healthy life in this day and age. May as well enjoy myself.

So here I am sitting in a dank little shack, fighting off all manner of insect every night before bed, and I'm still fairly okay with that. Hell, I've considered eschewing the shack entirely for a nice tent down by a river.

But what then? Then I get to deal with all manner of police and citizens biatching and moaning because all I need out of life is shelter, some good food to eat, and some occasional entertainment. So I'm forced to work for just enough money to be slightly above homeless, just so people will leave me alone and not give me a hard time for being a poor. Which they still do.

We don't have options anymore. It's house, kids, fancy gadgets, or you're a failure at being human. Who are you to tell me that I'm a lazy entitled farkwit just because I don't want or need all the silly shiat you people buy to cram into those massive holes in your soul?  In a perfect world I'd be living out of an RV with a nice wifi signal and eating fish I caught daily from the nearby river. That's my dream. But I can't have it if I want to be a social animal. If I want to be a part of society I better buy a suit and bend over for the corporations who've convinced all of you that you need all your toys to be happy.

I'd save up money and do just what I want. Buy that RV and go live in some BLM land somewhere. But the initial investment into that lifestyle is pretty expensive and I can't keep money in my bank account long enough to really make such a plan viable. So all in all the world is farked and I'm just wasting time until I die.
 
2013-08-19 04:39:26 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: Thanks for the answers.  I had to look up what Zipcar was, and it doesn't appear to be available in my city.  I tend to buy a lot of heavy, bulky groceries at once, so backpacks usually wouldn't work.  Personaly shopping carts eh...  I might look into that. Be honest, though.  Would I look like a hobo?  I don't exactly want to get hassled..

Any one put a trailer on a bike?


again, that is THEFT.   even if you bring it back, taking a shopping cart from a store off THEIR property, is theft.  look into getting something on wheels.  or just get one of those things they put kids in on the back of your bike.  and use it for groceries instead of a kid.
 
2013-08-19 04:43:05 AM  
I got rid of my car last year.

If I added up every penny I've spent on cabs (and I take way too many cabs tbh, because I'm lazy) and train and bus fare (I live in Bay Area, good public transport) ... I still pay way way less than I was paying to keep my car.

It also takes me a fark of a lot longer to get anywhere. So there's that.
 
2013-08-19 04:45:10 AM  

cynicalminion: Voodoo_Stu: Thanks for the answers.  I had to look up what Zipcar was, and it doesn't appear to be available in my city.  I tend to buy a lot of heavy, bulky groceries at once, so backpacks usually wouldn't work.  Personaly shopping carts eh...  I might look into that. Be honest, though.  Would I look like a hobo?  I don't exactly want to get hassled..

Any one put a trailer on a bike?

again, that is THEFT.   even if you bring it back, taking a shopping cart from a store off THEIR property, is theft.  look into getting something on wheels.  or just get one of those things they put kids in on the back of your bike.  and use it for groceries instead of a kid.


Again, owning your own shopping cart is not theft. Lots of people in cities use collapsible shopping carts to get groceries home.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s_ss_i_2_12?k=collapsible+grocer y +cart&sprefix=Collapsible+
 
2013-08-19 04:52:16 AM  

TomD9938: JorgiX: it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000


The first hundred of 2500 found on Minneapolis CraigsList search $999.00 and under (some are parts).

[snip]


and only 3 or 4  of those are 10 years old or less
 
2013-08-19 04:53:38 AM  
Gas prices weren't 5 dollars a gallon, either.
 
2013-08-19 05:07:39 AM  

Twitch Boy: Wait until this generation finally gets jobs, then looks in the mirror and sees 35 staring them in the face and realizes they never got to live out their youth.

Buy stock in BMW and Just For Men.  You're going to be able to see the midlife crisis from space.


They still won't be able to afford it.
 
2013-08-19 05:25:07 AM  
i.imgur.com

We're making the next generation pay money they don't have for degrees they don't need for jobs that won't exist.

Like the Wall St Crash; things are slowly building to a head, and when it breaks, things will become very bad for EVERYONE, very quickly, without warning.  And it will be unbprecedented, so no one will know what do do.  The standard of living will be rocked like it's never been before for millions.

Except for the mega-rich.  They will weather the storm just fine.
 
2013-08-19 05:28:07 AM  

Doc Daneeka: cynicalminion: Jacobin: Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?

Just push them home in the shopping cart

you know that's theft, right?

Lots of car-less urbanites own their own collapsible carts for the express purpose of grocery shopping.

that

is YOUR cart. if you get a wheeled contraption (potentially attached to your bike) you can easily transport things.

loading up a shopping cart and wheeling it home, however, is not okay.
 
2013-08-19 05:35:50 AM  

cynicalminion: Doc Daneeka: cynicalminion: Jacobin: Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?

Just push them home in the shopping cart

you know that's theft, right?

Lots of car-less urbanites own their own collapsible carts for the express purpose of grocery shopping.

that is YOUR cart. if you get a wheeled contraption (potentially attached to your bike) you can easily transport things.

loading up a shopping cart and wheeling it home, however, is not okay.


Of course it isn't. Whoever said that it was?

The original poster who recommended using a cart to take groceries home was offering good, sound advice for urbanites. I didn't read it as advocating theft.
 
2013-08-19 05:53:48 AM  
Another reason often cited is money. Maynard says the average cost of a new car is about $30,000, before factoring in car insurance. Add in the high price of gas in some places and owning a car is simply too expensive for a young person.

That's it in a nutshell.

My first fulltime job paid me $1.92 an hour. Lower middle class wages were a little over $6000 a year. Car insurance was not mandatory and gas was between $0.20 and $0.25 a gallon. In 1971 I bought a 1967 Pontiac GTO for $1500. I put chrome rims on it for under $200. I had it professionally painted a rich metallic blue for $400. I bought a used set of side, under the door pipes for $50.

My car insurance cost me $15 a month.

With a $100 set of mainly used tools, I could rebuild the engine. I could set the timing myself, change the brakes and install an AM/FM stereo system. My tag was less than half what it cost today.

Parts came from local salvage yards and the engine was a massive, over powered monster of a V-8 that got 8 mpg.

I drive a Buick LeSaber now and wnated to get it's color changed. A basic paint jobs costs over $1000. I can't work on the engine because of the chips in it. Mechanics have to with hideously expensive machines and charge me $50 an hour.

It had heavy, chrome bumpers. I drove a car with plastic bumpers and someone tapped me and cracked the 'bumper cover'. It cost me an astounding $375 to get it fixed. I drive a van and got hit and wrecked a headlight. The whole assembly was plastic. It cost $250 just to get the assembly, without the bulb.

Traffic tickets have tripled over the years. Car prices have soared beyond what my home cost.

The cost of getting even a used car, working on it and customizing the thing has become obscenely expensive. Gas has popped up to $4.00 a gallon. Tires quadrupled in price -- even recaps.

I used to put Freon in the a/c system at $1.00 a can. Now, I pay $4.00 a can. Sometimes $5.00.

Plus, traffic is bad. Real bad, ever since the car dealers convinced folks to buy cars for everyone in the family except the dog.

I can understand why folks are slowing down on buying cars. Besides, years ago, car dealers made a huge thing about buying a new car every year. Sheer greed and waste, since most of them wound up in the salvage and scrap yards in 5 years anyhow.
 
2013-08-19 06:04:47 AM  
You can't Tweet and Drive.

You can't Tweet and Drive and Live.
 
2013-08-19 06:10:58 AM  
At 41 years old, I've never bought a new car, and don't intend to. They're a waste of money. The closest I came was a 4 year old car from a used dealer. Someone else can take all the depreciation hit.

A bunch of people I know are like me - love/hate relationship. They like the freedom and convenience but hate the expense and all the stupid fussy driving laws.
 
2013-08-19 06:12:40 AM  

GhostFish: So much vindictive spite aimed at the age groups with the least amount of money and power. Previous generations stripmined the opportunity out of this country, and now the kids left with the scraps get kicked around and spit on for not taking advantage of all the opportunities that don't exist anymore.


I have to say it's a sick thing, watching the baby boom generation, I knew they were selfish tw*ts, but watching them fark over their kids future, that's harsh.
 
2013-08-19 06:15:42 AM  

Harry_Seldon: My first gasoline powered vehicles were all of the two wheel variety. I got a moped when I was 15. I bought a Honda 250 when I was 18, and have used some variety of 2 wheeled transport since then. Yes, I have a car, but it is a cheap one, and I rarely use is for more than 2000 miles a year.

Best transportation bang for the buck.

[image.motorcyclistonline.com image 799x499]


I've considered that as well - really, I've considered electric bikes for that purpose, but I insofar as I haven't looked into it, I expect they're not at all that effective, and beyond that they're going be mostly scooters rather than motorcycles. Although they might be efficient, it is also possible the electricity costs more than gas (haven't done the math). Also considered the opposite: basically a bicycle with a motor.

Just haven't done the research. I get around fine with public transportation (small city and I don't live in the US), so while personal transportation might be more convenient, it is so much more convenient to justify the investment of time, effort and money.
 
2013-08-19 06:23:59 AM  

Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.


That's not backed up by actual facts. I won't bother showing you research because you don't care about that, but I can prove it easily by having bought a $1000 Ford Explorer last year for camping and to pull my little boat.

You are just old and think things should cost what they did when you were a kid.
 
2013-08-19 06:37:04 AM  
From the article:  "I think people are looking at transportation now as 'I use my car when I need it, but if there are other cheaper, faster ways to get somewhere I'll use that as well.' "

Where do people live that has public transportation that's faster and cheaper than a car? I live near Portland, which is known for being bike and public transportation friendly, and it's not true here. I worked out the cost and time to drive versus taking the MAX to school. Driving: 30 min and ~$3.50 in gas. MAX: 2+ hours and $4.40 a ticket. Yeah... why wouldn't I drive? Even with insurance, maintenance, and parking, it's not worth it to take public transportation. I have no idea how people can stand to waste that much time out of their day just getting somewhere.

All of you guys that were able to buy an older beater for less than 500 bucks make me jealous. I recently bought a '95 Miata with a salvage title for almost three grand. Three grand for an 18 year old car that has been totaled! And it was a good deal. I can't imagine what kind of junk you would get for $500 nowadays. It's too bad. Having a car was my first real taste of freedom as a teen. No more begging your parents to drive you somewhere; you can just go where you want when you want. I feel bad for teens that never get to experience that.
 
2013-08-19 06:45:32 AM  

ghare: Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.

That's not backed up by actual facts. I won't bother showing you research because you don't care about that, but I can prove it easily by having bought a $1000 Ford Explorer last year for camping and to pull my little boat.

You are just old and think things should cost what they did when you were a kid.


Why wouldn't I be interested, supporters of the President  can criticize a lot program.
 
2013-08-19 06:47:44 AM  

Harry_Seldon: ghare: Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.

That's not backed up by actual facts. I won't bother showing you research because you don't care about that, but I can prove it easily by having bought a $1000 Ford Explorer last year for camping and to pull my little boat.

You are just old and think things should cost what they did when you were a kid.

Why wouldn't I be interested, supporters of the President  can criticize a lot program.


Oh, sorry, I just figured what with being wrong and all you were a teabagger. Sorry. It was a pretty safe bet.
 
2013-08-19 06:52:06 AM  
theinfosphere.org
 
2013-08-19 06:58:20 AM  

tomerson: Shouldn't you be on a balcony yelling at a Muppet.


Nice.
 
2013-08-19 06:59:09 AM  
We need to aerosolize some testosterone and start spraying.
 
2013-08-19 07:04:09 AM  
they're too damn lazy get a job to buy some wheels

In the 70s, a typical factory worker supporting a family could buy a brand new car and pay it off in one year.

Today, a typical white-collar worker in a double-income home supporting a family can buy a brand new car and pay it off in six years.

But, yeah, this has nothing to do with the destruction of the economy by 1%ers over the past 30 years.  It's that people are *lazy* nowadays. (rollseyes)
 
2013-08-19 07:13:48 AM  

TomD9938: FTA : "My girlfriend drives me everywhere. That sounds sad, and 20 years ago I'd be considered pathetic, but it's almost normal now to be that way," says Mike Clubb, who is in his 20s.

"Almost" being the operative word.

This dude needs a car, he just chooses to mooch off his girlfriend.

At least she knows he needs her.


You say 'mooching off his girlfriend' as if it is a bad thing. Is that wrong? Should he not do that? I got to tell you, I have to plead ignorance because if anyone would have said that that kind of thing is frowned upon. I've go to tell you, I've been in a lot of relationships in my time and that kind of thing is pretty common.
 
2013-08-19 07:18:45 AM  
I got a kick out of the headline.  When I was 27 I ran the local Gamestop, and my car was in the shop for almost two weeks getting a starter replaced (mid-90s Oldsmobiles are a royal PitA like that), so for those two weeks I had to either borrow or get a ride from my mom's minivan.

/this has been All Cool Stories, Bro Considered
 
2013-08-19 07:27:45 AM  

Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has: How the heck do you get groceries home?


Get them delivered... But, that only works in certain locations... Living in some places pretty much requires you to have a car...
 
2013-08-19 07:34:56 AM  
A few decades of trickle down will do that to a nation.
 
2013-08-19 07:40:36 AM  

Lunakki: From the article:  "I think people are looking at transportation now as 'I use my car when I need it, but if there are other cheaper, faster ways to get somewhere I'll use that as well.' "

Where do people live that has public transportation that's faster and cheaper than a car?


In NYC, an unlimited MetroCard is about $110 per month, which is far cheaper than car payments + insurance + gas + maintenance + parking. And if you've ever seen NYC rush hour traffic, you'd know the subway is faster too.

Now, if you live outside the city and have to commute, that changes the equation a bit, but it may still work out cheaper to get a monthly pass for Metro-North/LIRR/NJ Transit, than to deal with the traffic, bridge tolls, and parking.
 
2013-08-19 07:42:16 AM  
uh really? 29? i'm turning 28 this year and cars were/still are the ticket to freedom for myself and everybody i knew growing up

also couldn't the guy going to gamestop just download games?
 
2013-08-19 07:43:20 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: As a 17 year old, we have to deal with a unique situation in American societal history that no previous generations had to contend with. We don't have the access to opportunities that our grandparents did, or the promise of high paying jobs out of high school, or the ability to get a higher education without taking out loans.


That would be true... if you were 17 in 1989. There's nothing you listed that didn't also apply to Generation X. There's a reason why grunge was invented when it was. Life sucks. It sucked before you came along and it'll suck long after you're dead. You, nor your generation, are special unique snowflakes. At least you don't have to deal with being drafted and blown up in a foreign land like the Greatest Generation and the less well connected Baby Boomers.
 
2013-08-19 07:45:33 AM  

Revmachine21: 42 yo woman here, I am car free! I love it. No hassles with car salesmen, no hassles with car repair dudes, no hassles with fuel, no parking hassles, no hassles with the government for licensing and emissions, or insurance issues.  I budget one car rental weekend a month, and buy supplemental insurance from the car rental agency as I don't carry a policy on myself as a named non-owner driver.

Here are my tips and tricks for making it work:
* I use public transportation, purchasing a discounted pass from a college where I take 1 college course.
* I have a personal shopping cart for the daily, weekly runs.
* I shop for heavy stuff when I have the rental car, when I don't have the car I make due without.
* I rent from Enterprise, their cheapest car with USAA membership ran ~$100 for a weekend with fuel.

Renting with Enterprise rocks, many of their rental agencies deliver the car to your door, with drop off service.



How many cats do you own?
 
2013-08-19 07:46:39 AM  

cynicalminion: Doc Daneeka: cynicalminion: Jacobin: Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?

Just push them home in the shopping cart

you know that's theft, right?

Lots of car-less urbanites own their own collapsible carts for the express purpose of grocery shopping.

that is YOUR cart. if you get a wheeled contraption (potentially attached to your bike) you can easily transport things.

loading up a shopping cart and wheeling it home, however, is not okay.


I was lucky enough to live a little less than a mile from a mini-grocery.  What happens is, you end up going to the grocery store 4 - 5 times a week, getting two manageable bags each trip, rather than one big load every week.  You'll eat and waste less of everything as a result.  It's a positive experience if you want it to be.
 
2013-08-19 07:55:10 AM  
Smackledorfer:


What is the overlap between these various comment styles I see on fark, I wonder? And how many shop at walmart for the low prices subsidized by our taxes that help them remain fed, housed, and clothed for their services?


lolwat? crazy much?

ib4 they have employees on gomment assistance...like every other company (target,bestbuy,kroger,gamestop,wingstop,sears,jcpenny,any store in the mall)

hint: walmart isn't the only one paying low wages
 
2013-08-19 07:56:27 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: cynicalminion: Doc Daneeka: cynicalminion: Jacobin: Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?

Just push them home in the shopping cart

you know that's theft, right?

Lots of car-less urbanites own their own collapsible carts for the express purpose of grocery shopping.

that is YOUR cart. if you get a wheeled contraption (potentially attached to your bike) you can easily transport things.

loading up a shopping cart and wheeling it home, however, is not okay.

I was lucky enough to live a little less than a mile from a mini-grocery.  What happens is, you end up going to the grocery store 4 - 5 times a week, getting two manageable bags each trip, rather than one big load every week.  You'll eat and waste less of everything as a result.  It's a positive experience if you want it to be.




That's what I wrote above.

The reason why "how do you manage grocery shopping without a car???" is such a mystery to some people is because they are operating from certain assumptions (i.e. one weekly supermarket trip to buy a whole carload full of stuff for a week) shaped by a suburban lifestyle that they don't even realize.

In reality, it's not difficult at all to do your grocery shopping without a car, and there are a variety of ways to do it.
 
2013-08-19 08:01:14 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Subby sounds bitter that he has to make insurance payments and spend hard-earned cash on gas.


And maintenance.  And personal property tax.  And inspections.

/hates driving cars these days
//B-b-b-but bootstraps....
 
2013-08-19 08:01:21 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: As a 17 year old, we have to deal with a unique situation in American societal history that no previous generations had to contend with. We don't have the access to opportunities that our grandparents did, or the promise of high paying jobs out of high school, or the ability to get a higher education without taking out loans.

I tried to get a summer job, and the only one offered to me was a courier at my step-dad's real estate company. I would have been out walking during the hottest part of the day, and only making $15 per hour.

Excuse us if we're content to stay home and make an impact on the world through blogs and social media instead of working for slave wages so we can live some antiquated American dream.


heh 8/10.. will get some people
 
2013-08-19 08:05:54 AM  

Harry_Seldon: brigid: $300 a month for payments, insurance and gas is a small price to pay for that freedom.

Is that you, Al?

[www.bundyology.com image 512x384]


How did I not remember that he had a Duster?? That was the car my Mom had when I was little, except hers was blue with the white top and stripe down the side.  And it couldn't go up hills, which, living in a city full of them, meant we were screwed.

\my first car was dad's 85 Calais, two tone blue with blue velveteen seats
 
2013-08-19 08:11:04 AM  
when i was 16 (in 1996) my dad told me that when i learned to drive, his car insurance was going to go up, so i would have to get a job to help pay for it.  i thought that was fair and said okay.  and then i just didn't learn to drive.  i had no interest in getting a job, and i rarely left the house anyway, so i didn't need to learn the drive.  the only place i would ever drive to would probably be the job i didn't want, and the only reason i needed the job was to pay for insurance, so i said screw it.

i didn't learn to drive until i was 22 after i graduated college.  because at that point i needed a job, and therefore i needed a car.  and fun fact:  the car i bought in 2002 is the car i still own, and i intend to keep driving it until it falls apart like the car in the movie blues brothers.
 
2013-08-19 08:12:45 AM  

cynicalminion: Doc Daneeka: cynicalminion: Jacobin: Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?

Just push them home in the shopping cart

you know that's theft, right?

Lots of car-less urbanites own their own collapsible carts for the express purpose of grocery shopping.

that is YOUR cart. if you get a wheeled contraption (potentially attached to your bike) you can easily transport things.

loading up a shopping cart and wheeling it home, however, is not okay.


My great aunt lived in NYC her entire life, until age 95, and never once owned a car.  She fed her family by carrying home groceries in her hands.  Imagine that.  She walked everywhere and used to joke how ironic it was how out of shape we "country" dwellers were compared to city folk.  Car culture = fat and lazy culture.
 
2013-08-19 08:19:13 AM  
I tell my own kids that getting a car is like getting an anchor tying you to the house for several more years, and if they want "freedom", they should avoid owning a car as long as possible. The car eats money for gas, repairs, insurance.  Your average minimum wage starter jobs barely cover that for a used beater car, and so, you can't put anything away in the bank to save up enough to move out.

My then-girlfriend wife never owned a car; she took the bus and abs everywhere, or bummed rides from family and friends (and me). When we got married, we paid for everything ourselves, AND STARTED OUR LIVES TOGETHER DEBT-FREE, because she had been banking all the money she would have been spending on car ownership all along.
 
2013-08-19 08:27:13 AM  
I went car-less for about a year, was walking to and from work.  Fortunately, there was a grocery store right next to were I live (since closed down) so it wasn't hard to get groceries, and picking up groceries two days at a time meant produce didn't turn to mush before it got eaten (which does happen when buying a weeks worth at a time)

Eventually I got sick of all the time I was losing walking to and from work, and did the calculation on car payment + insewerants versus the time I was losing walking to and from work and came to the conclusion that my time was valuable enough that I got a loan and bought a car.  Used car, of course,  Never owned a "new" car- I imagine I'd like to one day, but for now I have reliable and reasonably comfortable transportation, and I can go places that aren't within walking distance/

/Very limited public transpo where I am, especially for the shift I work
//Tried a bike before I took the plunge back into car ownership, it broke the first time I tried to ride it to work
///Couldn't afford a higher quality (sturdier) bike, and you can't finance them like a car
 
2013-08-19 08:45:13 AM  
In may day (adjusts onion), if you didn't have your drivers license by a few months past your 16th birthday you were looked at as if you had some sort of developmental defect.

Parents soon found out about the utility of having a teenager that could drive. After my older brother got his license, the two of us did all the grocery-shopping for the family, along with a plethora of other chores.

My grandfather would occasionally call his buddy that ran a bar/liquor store, and then send me to pick up his beer.
 
2013-08-19 08:48:57 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Subby sounds bitter that he has to make insurance payments and spend hard-earned cash on gas.


Shut your troll mouth.  Insurance payments are not funny.
 
2013-08-19 08:49:37 AM  
The average new car costs $30k? What are you people buying? I just bought a new Accord, and drove it off the lot for less than $21k (tax included). You can get a Fiat 500, which is a good starter car, for @$15k, or a Kia for $12k. Heck, you can get a good, used Jag XK8 for $12k.

Jorn the Younger:

///Couldn't afford a higher quality (sturdier) bike, and you can't finance them like a car

Sure you can. You can get a good-enough bike for less than $500, and banks will make that kind of unsecured loan. I got a $600 bank loan to buy a saxophone 20 years ago.
 
2013-08-19 08:55:39 AM  

thenumber5: well, when i got my first car in 2000

i could fill it up with ~15 dollars a week

now to fill up my car it runs about 40



I often wonder if you Americans have any idea how cheap your gas is compared to even your next door neighbours?  You think 40$ to fill your car is expensive?  That's what it cost in Toronto 20 years ago.  I drive a Mazda 3, 2006 regular base model, and it cost 65$ to fill my tank this weekend.  It was nearly empty, we pay over 1.30 per litre.  Contrary to popular belief we actually make LESS money than at most equivalent jobs in the USA.  So quit your biatching..we actually don't have it that bad and you really have it EASY.  You would lose your minds if you found out how much they pay for gas in the EU.
 
2013-08-19 08:56:35 AM  

weltallica: [i.imgur.com image 640x489]

We're making the next generation pay money they don't have for degrees they don't need for jobs that won't exist.

Like the Wall St Crash; things are slowly building to a head, and when it breaks, things will become very bad for EVERYONE, very quickly, without warning.  And it will be unbprecedented, so no one will know what do do.  The standard of living will be rocked like it's never been before for millions.

Except for the mega-rich.  They will weather the storm just fine.



I agree.   You're right.  But it's an incomplete picture.


Student load debt is caused by the Government interfering and distorting that market.  Universities know what the market will bear for their services -say about $2,000 per semester for a typical state U. The Government chips in about $5,000 and the Universities certainly know that. So they charge $7,000. If Washington started lending students $50,000, schools would charge $52,000. They even have student loan offices to make sure you bring them that Government money.


No matter how much your incompetent Government tries to help; they are only generating industry specific inflation. Just like they did in the housing market from 1993 to 2008. And the kid with a degree but no job (an education produced but not used) is just like a house with no real owner - a victim of a government determined to pump up a market. Next year they will start constructing a health care disaster the same way.


When I was in school; that money came as grants. Now it comes as loans, so they graduate with a mountain on their backs. And Tax Payers get ass rammed to make the disaster happen. And schools have lowered standards to grab more easy cash. So kids graduate with a huge debt, into a market flooded with cheap degrees, after receiving a 2nd rate education.
 
2013-08-19 09:00:38 AM  

mbillips: The average new car costs $30k? What are you people buying? I just bought a new Accord, and drove it off the lot for less than $21k (tax included). You can get a Fiat 500, which is a good starter car, for @$15k, or a Kia for $12k. Heck, you can get a good, used Jag XK8 for $12k.

Jorn the Younger:

///Couldn't afford a higher quality (sturdier) bike, and you can't finance them like a car

Sure you can. You can get a good-enough bike for less than $500, and banks will make that kind of unsecured loan. I got a $600 bank loan to buy a saxophone 20 years ago.


Not when I looked.  The only places willing to do loans that small and/or unsecured were PayDayLoanShark places, and I wasn't going to pay over $1000 for a $500 bike.
 
2013-08-19 09:08:30 AM  

Smackledorfer: bborchar: Smackledorfer: bborchar: they think it's supposed to be easier because they have a degree.

Why shouldn't it be easier to find a job, or easier to find one with greater pay, when you have a degree?  Think really hard before you answer, and realize that it is in reality easier to find a job and earn more pay by having a degree (even a filthy libby arts one, if the statistics I last read were correct).

bborchar: I remember filling out my tax return that year where I made $6K. For the entire year

Oh, you are a liar, nm then. That is what, less than 20 hours a week at 8 bucks an hour?  I thought you were working full time? And you lived in Japan for a year and tasmania for a summer, all while working full time crappy jobs just to get by and once coming in at a 6k year?


Something smells trolly to me. I give you a 0/10 and the recommendation that you don't change lures so many times during a thread. Give one bait and action a chance for a few minutes and a little drifting time to cover some area with that method.

Japan- 2003, direct student exchange, since it was my major, and cost me no more than it did living in the states. I had a small stipend and a scholarship that paid for my round trip airfare.

Tasmania- 2004, oh, look at that- I had made friends in Japan and went and stayed with them the entire summer after my dad died. I charged my airfare and paid it off in about 6 months.

I made just over $6 an hour as a computer lab manager, but worked from 20-30 a week, which was considered full time on campus for students (we weren't allowed to work more). My sophomore year I had a second job, but I had to quit to go to Japan. I took out the minimum student loans for my tuition, and paid the rest if my expenses out of pocket. I ended up with less than 20K at the end of it, which is half paid off now, 7 years later. Could have completely paid it off, but we bought a house.

My apartment was in the crime laden area of town and cost me $260 a month. My car was a 1990 Buick, the same car I first bought in 1999 for $1000.

So no, I'm not trolling.

You never asked anyone for help but you had a scholarship and mooched off friends in japan? What a rough life your full time job was. I am sure you worked full time in japan too right?

Ohhh and you consider 20-30 hours full time? Lol.

Worked my way through college myself. Sometimes put in fifty hours, and I still wouldn't think of responding to a list of the job reality in our economy with 'all I can hear is waaaah'.


Guess you fail in reading comprehension. I didn't mooch off of anyone in Japan...I went there for school and still payed for it like I always did...it just didn't cost me more because I was part of an exchange. I taught English when I was over there. I stayed with my friends when I went to Tasmania, who also came over here and stayed for a while. That's what friends do for each other. I said the university considered it full time, so they wouldn't have to pay benefits to students. Which is why I also had a second job sometimes. And whether it was 20 hours or 50 hours a week (which I also did my sophomore year), the fact remained that I had to still support myself on that with rent, gas, food, books, utilities, etc.

And no, I didn't get any help from my parents, because they were caring for my great grandmother as she was dying and my nephew because my brother was a lazy a**hole who wouldn't raise him himself. I was 4 hours away from them, so there wasn't much they could help me with. They came twice, once for a football game and the next time for my graduation. I didn't go back often because I couldn't afford the gas or missing work. My point was that I never made any excuses for why I couldn't do something. I wanted to go to Japan ever since high school, so I found a way to go. I wanted to go to see my friends in Tasmania, so I went. My husband could only find a job that was 500 miles away from our families, so went went. I needed a job to help support us, so I worked lots of temp jobs and applied everywhere until I finally got a full time position. And when we wanted to buy a house, we saved up our money for three years to put down a deposit. When someone gives me a list of excuses why they "can't" do something, it means that they've already convinced themselves that they can't do it. If you're educated, smart, and hardworking, you just have to expand your horizons. Try jobs in other states (or countries, even). Of course, if you continue to think that I'm lying, that's your problem. My mom couldn't help me and my dad died in a halfway house, but I was obviously mooching off of someone.
 
2013-08-19 09:12:52 AM  
My first car was a 1974 Chevy Impala Wagon, bought in 1981. A monstrosity of a car. Rear window cranked electrically into the rear roof, and then the tailgate rolled down into the sub-floor somehow, at the twist of the key. Roof rack would actually carry a small load of lumber, and not  bend up like pot metal. Did I mention this car was a monster? Let down the rear seat, and you had a full 8' of bed. I had every combination of home speaker system known to mankind packed into the rear of that baby at one time or another. Ten miles to the gallon, but I could put 11 people into it, and everybody would be in a seat, since it also had a rear-facing rumble seat which folded up out of the rear floor, and the spare tire stored in one of the ample wheel well extensions. Used to ride up into the mountains and party, park backwards at the drive-in, and/ or just open up thew cavern and blast the stereo at parties. Best $350 I ever spent. It was a rolling battle-wagon, but I got laid. Probably because of the guitar...
 
2013-08-19 09:18:44 AM  

weltallica: We're making the next generation pay money they don't have for degrees they don't need for jobs that won't exist.


99% agreed, but I have met too many college students who just look at you funny when you laugh at their major.  A 19-20 yro has no business trying to decide a major on their own, they either stick to it and can't find a job or had to switch or went back to get a degree that actually gets them work.  Those that got it right the first shot through college typically had an old influence in their decision making and this is not a new thing.  An uncle of mine had a nice long productive career coaching hs sports, but if that is all he did he wouldn't have coached one game.  He left college all ready to just coach, but someone got ahold of him and asked the question "Do you want a career or do you want a job?".  My uncle replied "I want a job".  The guy then said "Teach then".  My uncle taught where he could till a coaching job opened up, by then he was financially set instead of scrapping by waiting for that sweet coaching job.  My cousin wanted to follow his dad's foot steps and he did, he started out teaching and is now looking to take over his dad's team.  Good thing he didn't wait till dad retired, because cousin has a wife and kids to support.  They already own their home.  I also know a couple that both went to college at same time, she changed her major and has a job where he didn't change his couldn't keep a job and they divorced.  They both picked majors that sounded cool, but more college kids taking the same major than jobs that were available.  She switched to special education which has far fewer folks fighting for the job and it is something she was already good at, she had a specials needs sibling.

/uncle is in the MHSAA baseball hall of fame
//over 500 career coaching wins and still hasn't let go of his baseball team
///cousin has the basketball team
 
2013-08-19 09:20:06 AM  

Jorn the Younger: mbillips: The average new car costs $30k? What are you people buying? I just bought a new Accord, and drove it off the lot for less than $21k (tax included). You can get a Fiat 500, which is a good starter car, for @$15k, or a Kia for $12k. Heck, you can get a good, used Jag XK8 for $12k.

Jorn the Younger:

///Couldn't afford a higher quality (sturdier) bike, and you can't finance them like a car

Sure you can. You can get a good-enough bike for less than $500, and banks will make that kind of unsecured loan. I got a $600 bank loan to buy a saxophone 20 years ago.

Not when I looked.  The only places willing to do loans that small and/or unsecured were PayDayLoanShark places, and I wasn't going to pay over $1000 for a $500 bike.


Well, yeah, that's how unsecured debt works. You'd pay just as much or more if you put it on a credit card and made the minimum payments. My first bike was a $65 beater from a pawn shop, but it got me where I needed to go for two years. Even if you get a car, it's a good idea to get a bike for when the weather's nice; cars make you lazy and fat.

/Fat and lazy
 
2013-08-19 09:22:52 AM  

Smackledorfer: bborchar: bingethinker: Stop trying to introduce reality-based thinking based on the way things currently are into this thread! Boomers want to whine about how millennials are supposedly moochers for not magically taking advantage of opportunities that aren't there anymore, not listen to reasoned arguments.

And millennials want to whine about how boomers have all the jobs and all the money, when a lot of us aren't doing that well either. There's some reality for you, junior.

My parents have been laid off from more jobs than I can remember...every retirement package they ever had went to keeping the house payments going during unemployment. Many boomers are probably looking at the same situation.

Getting back on track:
While every gen has its trials, this thread started about cars, and I don't see how it is up for debate that the costs for buying them, running them, and paying for the things they take you to have gone up every decade while wages have been stagnant. It is common sense that fewer kids would buy one.

Hell I am not even that old and I've seen gas go through the roof and cars get harder and harder to grease-monkey. I can hardly diagnose and replace my pcm. Multiple shops couldn't properly diagnose that. My dad's cars could be fixed by him and his father most of the time.


The care and insurance have definitely gone up. You can get crappy but working cars for about the same as usual (my last car before this was a 1996 sunfire I got for less than $1000, but it was a manual with absolutely no electrical parts and the trunk didn't even pop unless you used a key, lol). I had that car for 10 years, until we finally traded it in last year for a used 08' Hyundai sonata. But insurance for teenagers is outrageous, and gas is really high. So it's a bigger balancing act...but it's one that a college grad should be able to handle. Or maybe look for jobs in cities with public transportation, but not high living costs (I live in Pittsburgh now, which is one of those cities). At one point after I graduated college and couldn't find a job, I starting looking into teaching abroad and the foreign legion. Those are great jobs for getting real w
 
2013-08-19 09:28:14 AM  

E5bie: JorgiX: Psst, that is not a full-time job on the real world you seem to have a problem with. And again, try living on $6K in the Bay Area, or finding a $260 apartment.

This one time I toured a $260 apartment. It was... memorable. And that was the day I decided to stop being poor.


Mine was shag carpet from one end to another, blood had been painted over on the walls (but not well), and I lived over a drug deal who beat his girlfriend and across the hall from a woman who once tried to shoot another tenant for moving her clothes on top if the only washing machine in our complex. I had to call the cops several times. But when it's all you can afford...what else is there?
 
2013-08-19 09:32:34 AM  
There is one big glaring problem with today's cars.  Inspection.  Here in NJ, where inspection is mandatory, the only way to pass is to plug the car into their computer, and presumably, they will tell you what is wrong with it.  Nowadays ALL cars have to have these sorts of interfaces, even though they don't work with a shiat.  Case in point...  My wife's 1999 Volvo wouldn't pass because the check engine light is on.  "Well, what do I need to fix?"  "I don't know.  The computer doesn't say.  So I can't pass your car."

We were planning on saving that car for our son, who will be driving in a couple of years.  But considering it will likely never pass inspection again, that doesn't seem likely.

Couple that with the cost of newer cars, gas, and insturance...  I don't see how any teenager working at McDonalds could afford anything BUT their car, assuming they could afford even that.
 
2013-08-19 09:37:29 AM  

mbillips: Heck, you can get a good, used Jag XK8 for $12k.


there are no "good" used Jaguars, just gigantic money pits.
 
2013-08-19 09:42:29 AM  

Full Metal Retard: weltallica: [i.imgur.com image 640x489]

We're making the next generation pay money they don't have for degrees they don't need for jobs that won't exist.

Like the Wall St Crash; things are slowly building to a head, and when it breaks, things will become very bad for EVERYONE, very quickly, without warning.  And it will be unbprecedented, so no one will know what do do.  The standard of living will be rocked like it's never been before for millions.

Except for the mega-rich.  They will weather the storm just fine.


I agree.   You're right.  But it's an incomplete picture.


Student load debt is caused by the Government interfering and distorting that market.  Universities know what the market will bear for their services -say about $2,000 per semester for a typical state U. The Government chips in about $5,000 and the Universities certainly know that. So they charge $7,000. If Washington started lending students $50,000, schools would charge $52,000. They even have student loan offices to make sure you bring them that Government money.


And this is why school vouchers don't work.  That awesome private school that fills every seat and charges $10,000/year will start charging $15,000 if you start handing out $5K vouchers to everyone.


No matter how much your incompetent Government tries to help; they are only generating industry specific inflation. Just like they did in the housing market from 1993 to 2008. And the kid with a degree but no job (an education produced but not used) is just like a house with no real owner - a victim of a government determined to pump up a market. Next year they will start constructing a health care disaster the same way.

You are way oversimplifying things.  There are many reasons why college prices have gone up.  The most basic reason is simple economics.  There are more college students now than ever before so demand is at an all time high.  Other factors: College administrators are incentivized to build fancy new buildings that nobody wants because it makes the balance sheet look good meaning they'll get their bonus.  Whereas states used to cover about two thirds the costs of state universities, now it is typically less than half the cost, leaving the student to pick up the rest.  The focus on research vs. teaching.  The cost of cutting edge technology.  Too much non teaching staff.  There's more.  Comparatively, the $5000 loan you are complaining about against a $50000 tuition has a relatively smaller effect.

As to health care: Feel free to compare the per person cost of pre Obama health care in America to any other first world nation with socialized medicine.  Left to itself, free market health care has accomplished nothing in 40 years except for soaring costs, bankruptcies, millions of people without coverage and plenty of lucrative executive bonuses.  Our system is a joke.
 
2013-08-19 09:48:16 AM  

dumbobruni: mbillips: Heck, you can get a good, used Jag XK8 for $12k.

there are no "good" used Jaguars, just gigantic money pits.


That's true only of the pre-Ford ones. They've been reliable cars for, like, 20 years now, and have improved further since Tata bought them five years ago. The parts and dealer maintenance ARE super expensive, but you can say that about Mercs and BMWs, too.
 
2013-08-19 09:51:00 AM  

durbnpoisn: There is one big glaring problem with today's cars.  Inspection.  Here in NJ, where inspection is mandatory, the only way to pass is to plug the car into their computer, and presumably, they will tell you what is wrong with it.  Nowadays ALL cars have to have these sorts of interfaces, even though they don't work with a shiat.  Case in point...  My wife's 1999 Volvo wouldn't pass because the check engine light is on.  "Well, what do I need to fix?"  "I don't know.  The computer doesn't say.  So I can't pass your car."

We were planning on saving that car for our son, who will be driving in a couple of years.  But considering it will likely never pass inspection again, that doesn't seem likely.

Couple that with the cost of newer cars, gas, and insturance...  I don't see how any teenager working at McDonalds could afford anything BUT their car, assuming they could afford even that.


CSB
My dad had a 2000 Ford Ranger that gave him the same problem.  His mechanics couldn't get it fixed and he was at a loss for a vehicle.  The code simply read #5 cylinder misfiring and the mechanics kept thinking electrical.  So, he bought a 2010 F-150 and then used it to trailer the Ranger to me because MI doesn't have inspections.  It runs so I just start driving it and doing my usual maintenance babying that I do to my cars.  Two weeks after I got it the check engine light went off and eventually stayed off.  The cure:  fuel injector cleaner, it had a fouled injector causing the cylinder to not fire right.

The codes only give you the symptoms of the problem, a good mechanic can narrow down the exact problem.  Sometimes you get a mechanic that is too single minded.
 
2013-08-19 09:57:17 AM  

durbnpoisn: There is one big glaring problem with today's cars.  Inspection.  Here in NJ, where inspection is mandatory, the only way to pass is to plug the car into their computer, and presumably, they will tell you what is wrong with it.  Nowadays ALL cars have to have these sorts of interfaces, even though they don't work with a shiat.  Case in point...  My wife's 1999 Volvo wouldn't pass because the check engine light is on.  "Well, what do I need to fix?"  "I don't know.  The computer doesn't say.  So I can't pass your car."

We were planning on saving that car for our son, who will be driving in a couple of years.  But considering it will likely never pass inspection again, that doesn't seem likely.

Couple that with the cost of newer cars, gas, and insturance...  I don't see how any teenager working at McDonalds could afford anything BUT their car, assuming they could afford even that.


Where I live, we have to have our car inspected...and whatever the mechanics who are getting a kickback from the gov't says you have to fix on your car has to get fixed or you don't get to renew it.  My bill once reached $1000, but most of the time it's several hundred.
 
2013-08-19 10:12:48 AM  

Persnickety: As to health care: Feel free to compare the per person cost of pre Obama health care in America to any other first world nation with socialized medicine. Left to itself, free market health care has accomplished nothing in 40 years except for soaring costs, bankruptcies, millions of people without coverage and plenty of lucrative executive bonuses. Our system is a joke.


You are assuming that we had a free market health care system in America before Obamacare.  We didn't, we had mostly HMO's that were linked to a persons large corporate job.  Which are basically a socialist system that were run by for profit corporations (flat price controls, no market forces, no personal responsibility for incurred cost, linked to a job so you can't move around, plus the HMO have immunity from lawsuits if they screwed up, all run for a profit).  Basically it was the worst of both socialist and capitalist systems, but it gave money and control to large corporations, unions and politicians.  Obamacare just formalizes this more and codifies the power into the hands of bureaucrats.  Now with no market pressures and no accountability I'm sure everything will work out for the best.    In contrast look at plastic surgery and laser hair removal.  Neither are covered under the HMO or Obamacare.  Both have had a consistent 15 year decrease in prices with an increase in service. That is much more of a free market with consistent results that provide a better product for less money.
 
2013-08-19 10:16:39 AM  

Harry_Seldon: tinfoil-hat maggie: ArmednHammered: Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.

WHAT! I could have gotten The Clash for my clunker? Son of  Biatch did I miss a deal!
What the Clash might have looked like...

[i773.photobucket.com image 287x176]

You sir are brilliant : )

How funny, I really typed "Clash." Many years ago, I had to play "chaperone" for the members of The Clash in Los Angeles. They were doing a publicity event, and my job was to keep them out of trouble for the day.


Yeah, I saw that movie too.  With Russell Brand?
 
2013-08-19 10:19:48 AM  

lack of warmth: durbnpoisn: There is one big glaring problem with today's cars.  Inspection.  Here in NJ, where inspection is mandatory, the only way to pass is to plug the car into their computer, and presumably, they will tell you what is wrong with it.  Nowadays ALL cars have to have these sorts of interfaces, even though they don't work with a shiat.  Case in point...  My wife's 1999 Volvo wouldn't pass because the check engine light is on.  "Well, what do I need to fix?"  "I don't know.  The computer doesn't say.  So I can't pass your car."

We were planning on saving that car for our son, who will be driving in a couple of years.  But considering it will likely never pass inspection again, that doesn't seem likely.

Couple that with the cost of newer cars, gas, and insturance...  I don't see how any teenager working at McDonalds could afford anything BUT their car, assuming they could afford even that.

CSB
My dad had a 2000 Ford Ranger that gave him the same problem.  His mechanics couldn't get it fixed and he was at a loss for a vehicle.  The code simply read #5 cylinder misfiring and the mechanics kept thinking electrical.  So, he bought a 2010 F-150 and then used it to trailer the Ranger to me because MI doesn't have inspections.  It runs so I just start driving it and doing my usual maintenance babying that I do to my cars.  Two weeks after I got it the check engine light went off and eventually stayed off.  The cure:  fuel injector cleaner, it had a fouled injector causing the cylinder to not fire right.

The codes only give you the symptoms of the problem, a good mechanic can narrow down the exact problem.  Sometimes you get a mechanic that is too single minded.


A pair of wire snips will also take care of that problem.  Snip - No more check engine light. I know it isn't a good solution but it is a solution.
 
2013-08-19 10:27:30 AM  

MonoChango: A pair of wire snips will also take care of that problem.  Snip - No more check engine light. I know it isn't a good solution but it is a solution.


It may turn off the light, but it sure as fark does not turn off the code the ODBII reader will pickup as soon as you plug it in.

Not sure where everyone lives, but here you can't get an inspection if the CEL is on.  So, don't farking go until it is fixed.  Many times it is simply a bad sensor.  If you want to see what is wrong before taking it to a mechanic, take it to AutoZone or other parts places and they will read your code for free.  You can also get your own reader for well under 50 bucks (look at how much the price has dropped on this one, from $131,000 to $20.  Bargain!).  You can even reset codes, but some inspection stations will check for that.  Get the code and the hit the net for what it may be.  You may not always get the right answer, but you can get close.  Better, you can have idea of what is wrong before you go to a mechanic.  Now some codes may mask other issues, but generally this stuff is pretty farking good.
 
2013-08-19 10:33:53 AM  

MonoChango: A pair of wire snips will also take care of that problem.  Snip - No more check engine light. I know it isn't a good solution but it is a solution.


It won't get your car to pass inspection, though.   When they do the inspection, they hook up a computer to your car.  The same thing that makes your cars Check Engine light come on is going to tell the computer that there is a problem.  It can also tell the computer "The battery has been disengaged recently and the car hasn't run enough since then to reset everything".  Either way, the car won't pass inspection.

Cutting your wires to the Check Engine light will just keep you from seeing the light, they won't get it to pass the inspection.
 
2013-08-19 10:34:27 AM  
Yeah, Subby! Those jobs are practically growing off trees! Look how easy the ME generation has it--the economy's booming, jobs are everywhere...

Oh, wait, you mean it might not be entirely feasible to get a car in this shiatty economy? Really, Sherlock?

/Seriously, is everyone just assuming the shiat economy somehow magically doesn't apply to my generation?
 
2013-08-19 10:35:30 AM  

tbhouston: Smackledorfer:


What is the overlap between these various comment styles I see on fark, I wonder? And how many shop at walmart for the low prices subsidized by our taxes that help them remain fed, housed, and clothed for their services?


lolwat? crazy much?

ib4 they have employees on gomment assistance...like every other company (target,bestbuy,kroger,gamestop,wingstop,sears,jcpenny,any store in the mall)

hint: walmart isn't the only one paying low wages


They are not the only ones, no.

However they are one of the most glaring examples.
 
2013-08-19 10:45:15 AM  

bborchar: Smackledorfer: bborchar: Smackledorfer: bborchar: they think it's supposed to be easier because they have a degree.

Why shouldn't it be easier to find a job, or easier to find one with greater pay, when you have a degree?  Think really hard before you answer, and realize that it is in reality easier to find a job and earn more pay by having a degree (even a filthy libby arts one, if the statistics I last read were correct).

bborchar: I remember filling out my tax return that year where I made $6K. For the entire year

Oh, you are a liar, nm then. That is what, less than 20 hours a week at 8 bucks an hour?  I thought you were working full time? And you lived in Japan for a year and tasmania for a summer, all while working full time crappy jobs just to get by and once coming in at a 6k year?


Something smells trolly to me. I give you a 0/10 and the recommendation that you don't change lures so many times during a thread. Give one bait and action a chance for a few minutes and a little drifting time to cover some area with that method.

Japan- 2003, direct student exchange, since it was my major, and cost me no more than it did living in the states. I had a small stipend and a scholarship that paid for my round trip airfare.

Tasmania- 2004, oh, look at that- I had made friends in Japan and went and stayed with them the entire summer after my dad died. I charged my airfare and paid it off in about 6 months.

I made just over $6 an hour as a computer lab manager, but worked from 20-30 a week, which was considered full time on campus for students (we weren't allowed to work more). My sophomore year I had a second job, but I had to quit to go to Japan. I took out the minimum student loans for my tuition, and paid the rest if my expenses out of pocket. I ended up with less than 20K at the end of it, which is half paid off now, 7 years later. Could have completely paid it off, but we bought a house.

My apartment was in the crime laden area of town and cost me $260 a month. My car was a 1990 Buick, the same car I first bought in 1999 for $1000.

So no, I'm not trolling.

You never asked anyone for help but you had a scholarship and mooched off friends in japan? What a rough life your full time job was. I am sure you worked full time in japan too right?

Ohhh and you consider 20-30 hours full time? Lol.

Worked my way through college myself. Sometimes put in fifty hours, and I still wouldn't think of responding to a list of the job reality in our economy with 'all I can hear is waaaah'.

Guess you fail in reading comprehension. I didn't mooch off of anyone in Japan...I went there for school and still payed for it like I always did...it just didn't cost me more because I was part of an exchange. I taught English when I was over there. I stayed with my friends when I went to Tasmania, who also came over here and stayed for a while. That's what friends do for each other. I said the university considered it full time, so they wouldn't have to pay benefits to students. Which is why I also had a second job sometimes. And whether it was 20 hours or 50 hours a week (which I also did my sophomore year), the fact remained that I had to still support myself on that with rent, gas, food, books, utilities, etc.

And no, I didn't get any help from my parents, because they were caring for my great grandmother as she was dying and my nephew because my brother was a lazy a**hole who wouldn't raise him himself. I was 4 hours away from them, so there wasn't much they could help me with. They came twice, once for a football game and the next time for my graduation. I didn't go back often because I couldn't afford the gas or missing work. My point was that I never made any excuses for why I couldn't do something. I wanted to go to Japan ever since high school, so I found a way to go. I wanted to go to see my friends in Tasmania, so I went. My husband could only find a job that was 500 miles away from our families, so went went. I needed a job to help support us, so I worked lots of temp jobs and applied everywhere until I finally got a full time position. And when we wanted to buy a house, we saved up our money for three years to put down a deposit. When someone gives me a list of excuses why they "can't" do something, it means that they've already convinced themselves that they can't do it. If you're educated, smart, and hardworking, you just have to expand your horizons. Try jobs in other states (or countries, even). Of course, if you continue to think that I'm lying, that's your problem. My mom couldn't help me and my dad died in a halfway house, but I was obviously mooching off of someone.


Yes, mooching is what friends allow their friends to do when they are in need. It is not what people playing the 'i did it all on my own' card while mocking anyone else saying times are tough should be saying. You also said you had the second job just one year, and you quit that to enjoy the excellent opportunity to go overseas.

Your post is full of others helping you and you pretending you were the hardest worker of all time (who somehow earned 6k in one year, something that CANNOT be high hours even at minimum wage). You are either delusional and think you are being honest, or you are lying.
 
2013-08-19 10:45:54 AM  
My first transportation was two-wheeled. I'd had summer jobs since I was in Junior high. Bought it when I turned 16. Sold it when I turned 18 and had graduated from high school. I had a great summer job lined up and a big down payment so I went to the dealer and ordered a new car.

The only east part was that the Olds dealer was my cousin so I could walk in and order a 1965 Cutlass with what I wanted. Faster than a 442 (the Olds version of a GTO). And cheaper to buy and operate. And a sleeper; only street (drag) race I ever lost was to a Mustang that was sleeperier.
 
2013-08-19 10:46:23 AM  

MonoChango: lack of warmth: durbnpoisn: There is one big glaring problem with today's cars.  Inspection.  Here in NJ, where inspection is mandatory, the only way to pass is to plug the car into their computer, and presumably, they will tell you what is wrong with it.  Nowadays ALL cars have to have these sorts of interfaces, even though they don't work with a shiat.  Case in point...  My wife's 1999 Volvo wouldn't pass because the check engine light is on.  "Well, what do I need to fix?"  "I don't know.  The computer doesn't say.  So I can't pass your car."

We were planning on saving that car for our son, who will be driving in a couple of years.  But considering it will likely never pass inspection again, that doesn't seem likely.

Couple that with the cost of newer cars, gas, and insturance...  I don't see how any teenager working at McDonalds could afford anything BUT their car, assuming they could afford even that.

CSB
My dad had a 2000 Ford Ranger that gave him the same problem.  His mechanics couldn't get it fixed and he was at a loss for a vehicle.  The code simply read #5 cylinder misfiring and the mechanics kept thinking electrical.  So, he bought a 2010 F-150 and then used it to trailer the Ranger to me because MI doesn't have inspections.  It runs so I just start driving it and doing my usual maintenance babying that I do to my cars.  Two weeks after I got it the check engine light went off and eventually stayed off.  The cure:  fuel injector cleaner, it had a fouled injector causing the cylinder to not fire right.

The codes only give you the symptoms of the problem, a good mechanic can narrow down the exact problem.  Sometimes you get a mechanic that is too single minded.

A pair of wire snips will also take care of that problem.  Snip - No more check engine light. I know it isn't a good solution but it is a solution.


Heh...  That might work.  Or the computer might simply tell the sniffing computer that the wire is cut.  They can already tell last time the computer was reset.  This is why you have to drive 29 miles or so after a reset, or the computer will fail you for that.

Another story:
I had my car in for inspection.  Engine light was on.  All they could tell me was, "There is something wrong with your cruise control."  "Uh, this car doesn't HAVE cruise control."  Nice....

So I unplugged the battery which reset the computer, got it inspected again, and the engine light has not come back since.  Go figure.
 
2013-08-19 10:46:25 AM  

weltallica: [i.imgur.com image 640x489]

We're making the next generation pay money they don't have for degrees they don't need for jobs that won't exist.

Like the Wall St Crash; things are slowly building to a head, and when it breaks, things will become very bad for EVERYONE, very quickly, without warning.  And it will be unbprecedented, so no one will know what do do.  The standard of living will be rocked like it's never been before for millions.

Except for the mega-rich.  They will weather the storm just fine.


=================

Yup, just like they did in Russia in 1917.
 
2013-08-19 10:47:26 AM  

Morchella: The only east


easy, not east. I hate adjacent key typos that are words.
 
2013-08-19 10:55:44 AM  

MonoChango: lack of warmth: durbnpoisn: There is one big glaring problem with today's cars.  Inspection.  Here in NJ, where inspection is mandatory, the only way to pass is to plug the car into their computer, and presumably, they will tell you what is wrong with it.  Nowadays ALL cars have to have these sorts of interfaces, even though they don't work with a shiat.  Case in point...  My wife's 1999 Volvo wouldn't pass because the check engine light is on.  "Well, what do I need to fix?"  "I don't know.  The computer doesn't say.  So I can't pass your car."

We were planning on saving that car for our son, who will be driving in a couple of years.  But considering it will likely never pass inspection again, that doesn't seem likely.

Couple that with the cost of newer cars, gas, and insturance...  I don't see how any teenager working at McDonalds could afford anything BUT their car, assuming they could afford even that.

CSB
My dad had a 2000 Ford Ranger that gave him the same problem.  His mechanics couldn't get it fixed and he was at a loss for a vehicle.  The code simply read #5 cylinder misfiring and the mechanics kept thinking electrical.  So, he bought a 2010 F-150 and then used it to trailer the Ranger to me because MI doesn't have inspections.  It runs so I just start driving it and doing my usual maintenance babying that I do to my cars.  Two weeks after I got it the check engine light went off and eventually stayed off.  The cure:  fuel injector cleaner, it had a fouled injector causing the cylinder to not fire right.

The codes only give you the symptoms of the problem, a good mechanic can narrow down the exact problem.  Sometimes you get a mechanic that is too single minded.

A pair of wire snips will also take care of that problem.  Snip - No more check engine light. I know it isn't a good solution but it is a solution.


While that helps you forget about it, here in TX when you get your inspection done they have to hook your car up to the OBD scanner. The light may not be on, but the code is still stored in the ECU. Depending on the code it may not matter (my old Dodge Ram used to give a low oil pressure error with check engine light that was common to them and eventually had a TSB to fix it) or it could be emissions related an you will fail. But you can pass with bad/no airbags and that light on.

I've been in some pretty bad ways before and always had a mode of transportation. You can buy a car that gets you from point A to B for under a grand. i know how to work on cars so I've bought cars for as low as $400 and fixed them for a ride. I also then sold those cars for $1,000 to $1,500.
 
2013-08-19 10:56:15 AM  
Doesn't surprise me any. Have you seen cars today? The cheapest car Ford sells is still basically a spaceship. Even if they are 10 times more reliable than the ones we had coming up, how can we expect a teenager to afford the maintenance and repair on such a sophisticated machine? Not to mention insurance, gas etc etc.

Still, some of the best nights of my whole life were loading my buddies into a car and driving back and forth between the 5 or 6 hotspots in my suburban town just to see who was there, smoking cigarettes and trying to figure out where the girls were. I'm sure to anyone who came up in the age of cell phones, that sounds absolutely retarded, but it was pure freedom for us.
 
2013-08-19 10:56:50 AM  

durbnpoisn: So I unplugged the battery which reset the computer, got it inspected again, and the engine light has not come back since.  Go figure.


Sometimes a sensor goes wacky and the computer needs a reboot.  Get a cheap scanner and you do with without losing the presets on your radio as well.
 
2013-08-19 11:04:48 AM  

TomD9938: FTA : "My girlfriend drives me everywhere. That sounds sad, and 20 years ago I'd be considered pathetic, but it's almost normal now to be that way," says Mike Clubb, who is in his 20s.

"Almost" being the operative word.

This dude needs a car, he just chooses to mooch off his girlfriend.

At least she knows he needs her.


DNFTFT, but so much this.  I've seen this around town so much the last few years that I think it was the inspiration for Hot Chicks with Douchebags.
 
2013-08-19 11:07:12 AM  
Oh on the scanner issue: i havw saved money by having a quicklube read it and googling before taking my car to the shop. You find fun stuff on forums like dozens of people fixing it the same way but scam mechanics trying three more expensive options first.
 
2013-08-19 11:11:32 AM  

PsiChick: Yeah, Subby! Those jobs are practically growing off trees! Look how easy the ME generation has it--the economy's booming, jobs are everywhere...

Oh, wait, you mean it might not be entirely feasible to get a car in this shiatty economy? Really, Sherlock?

/Seriously, is everyone just assuming the shiat economy somehow magically doesn't apply to my generation?



For as long as you live, there is going to be some reason why you can't achieve what you want. There will ALWAYS be some crisis that gives you an excuse to get indignant and then not try. And don't tell me about your 100 hour a week job searches, or getting turned down for a sperm bank janitor position. I don't care. The only reason I'm even responding is because your attitude is extremely common on Fark and one that I had for many years myself. In the end, I realized it was all just excuses. You have to make the decision to be successful and not concern yourself with the fates of the poor unwashed, or economic trends.
 
Ant
2013-08-19 11:17:24 AM  
car: 1971 Ford Maveric in spraycan flat black - $300
2nd car: 1976 Ford Gran Torino Starsky & Hutch Edition - $800 (This was in 1987, so there was no real nostalgia market for these yet)

I didn't get my fist new car until I was 31. Teenagers and young adults are supposed to drive beaters. It builds character.
 
2013-08-19 11:21:35 AM  

Ant: I didn't get my fist new car until I was 31. Teenagers and young adults are supposed to drive beaters. It builds character.


You forgot callused knuckles.

/Drove a 96 Neon from '05 until about a month ago.
//I put large hundreds of hours in that thing
 
2013-08-19 11:28:49 AM  

Magnanimous_J: PsiChick: Yeah, Subby! Those jobs are practically growing off trees! Look how easy the ME generation has it--the economy's booming, jobs are everywhere...

Oh, wait, you mean it might not be entirely feasible to get a car in this shiatty economy? Really, Sherlock?

/Seriously, is everyone just assuming the shiat economy somehow magically doesn't apply to my generation?


For as long as you live, there is going to be some reason why you can't achieve what you want. There will ALWAYS be some crisis that gives you an excuse to get indignant and then not try. And don't tell me about your 100 hour a week job searches, or getting turned down for a sperm bank janitor position. I don't care. The only reason I'm even responding is because your attitude is extremely common on Fark and one that I had for many years myself. In the end, I realized it was all just excuses. You have to make the decision to be successful and not concern yourself with the fates of the poor unwashed, or economic trends.


You know, for people like you and me, that's true. On my own behalf, I'm mostly just irritated--I know that, if the chips were down, I could support myself.

For thousands of other Americans, the 'poor unwashed' you're glibly referring to, no, that's not an option. When your home is so farked up you barely have a high school diploma, and the only people you know have ambitions of becoming a cook instead of a dishwasher...yeah. It  might be hard to buy a car for them. And you  might want to talk to people who don't live in your little bubble before spitting on people for not taking opportunities they were never granted in the first place.
 
2013-08-19 11:35:03 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: As a 17 year old, we have to deal with a unique situation in American societal history that no previous generations had to contend with. We don't have the access to opportunities that our grandparents did, or the promise of high paying jobs out of high school, or the ability to get a higher education without taking out loans.

I tried to get a summer job, and the only one offered to me was a courier at my step-dad's real estate company. I would have been out walking during the hottest part of the day, and only making $15 per hour.

Excuse us if we're content to stay home and make an impact on the world through blogs and social media instead of working for slave wages so we can live some antiquated American dream.


2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-08-19 11:35:48 AM  

ferretman: This article surprises me. I thought Obama had turned the economy around and there were jobs galore.


Well he would have, but the Republitards keep refusing to pass a budget.
 
2013-08-19 11:36:35 AM  
I always buy used cars with one of those riduculous 10 year loans that I pay off in two or three years then enjoy the next five or so years usually without any major repairs before age kicks in. Then I start calculating the difference between what I'm paying in repairs versus another loan payment.

It isn't the best system. I always say I'll pay cash for the next car. Yet I've never had to drive a clunker either.
 
2013-08-19 11:39:36 AM  

cynicalminion: Voodoo_Stu: Thanks for the answers.  I had to look up what Zipcar was, and it doesn't appear to be available in my city.  I tend to buy a lot of heavy, bulky groceries at once, so backpacks usually wouldn't work.  Personaly shopping carts eh...  I might look into that. Be honest, though.  Would I look like a hobo?  I don't exactly want to get hassled..

Any one put a trailer on a bike?

again, that is THEFT.   even if you bring it back, taking a shopping cart from a store off THEIR property, is theft.  look into getting something on wheels.  or just get one of those things they put kids in on the back of your bike.  and use it for groceries instead of a kid.


Yeah, sorry, I meant the personal ones that MrEricSir suggested buying from a hardware store. I would have just quoted him to avoid confusion, but was posting from my Xbox at the time and it's a bit of a pain to respond to others on.  Also, more typos. Like "Personaly".  And more annoying to browse on.  But, now that I've seen what he's talking about, it wasn't what I was thinking, and doesn't look hoboesque at all, so it might fit my purposes.

But to others who think it's weird, the main reason I get so much at once is they often have deals if you buy more than $150 worth at once (and I get a bunch of frozen foods so things rarely go bad). Although, now that I've thought more about it, winter would also be a problem to overcome.
 
2013-08-19 11:45:41 AM  
16 yrs old - 1960 VW Beetle, by 18 yrs old all of the mechanicals, i.e. brakes, motor, etc, had been rebuilt by none other than myself and the rest of the vw geek community that I chose to be a part of.  That car was ugly as sin, fast as fark, and got me mo' betta 'tang than any of my friends were pulling(no bumpers, hood, use your imagination).  The best part, I could fix the thing myself, no matter how expensive gas was, I could fill the tank, and it was really fast.

Fast forward..

38 yrs old - 68 Beetle... All of the above.

Suck it whiners...
 
2013-08-19 11:46:08 AM  
As a 29 year old who just got his learners a couple of months ago, I just didn't need it before now.

Now that I have a kid on the way. I do.
 
2013-08-19 11:46:55 AM  

bongon247: 38 yrs old - 68 Beetle... All of the above.


thesamba.com is your friend, right?
 
2013-08-19 11:51:57 AM  

wingnut396: durbnpoisn: So I unplugged the battery which reset the computer, got it inspected again, and the engine light has not come back since.  Go figure.

Sometimes a sensor goes wacky and the computer needs a reboot.  Get a cheap scanner and you do with without losing the presets on your radio as well.


My brother has a couple of those scanners.  It's not necessary for my car.  But my wife's, unplugging the battery doesn't do a damn thing.  So, the actual manual reset is the only option.
In any case, those cumputers that are supposed to keep the car humming along are a royal PITA.  They are so unreliable.  They sometimes make the car run like shiat even when it should be working fine.
 
2013-08-19 11:52:19 AM  

markie_farkie: bongon247: 38 yrs old - 68 Beetle... All of the above.

thesamba.com is your friend, right?


damn straight, my profile pic with my current car is prolly still up there somewhere too, though I haven't checked in awhile as I haven't broken anything lately.

Same username as this one.
 
2013-08-19 11:54:31 AM  
Searching thread for "my first car": 22 results

Way to make it all about you.
 
2013-08-19 12:24:35 PM  

trappedspirit: Searching thread for "my first car": 22 results

Way to make it all about you.


Oh grand wizard of the forums, please enlighten us with your guidelines to fulfill your thread post content needs and desires! We're only here to serve you!
 
2013-08-19 12:28:03 PM  

bongon247: I haven't broken anything lately.


Me neither.. Got a 75 'vert sitting in the garage, waiting for a restoration.. It was my daily driver back in the early 90s until some asshole with a forged DL and bogus insurance rear-ended me,, I managed to pull out the sheet metal to allow the engine to run, limped home, and garaged it shortly thereafter.. It's been sitting ever since, and I've started off and on to source parts from Samba to rebuild the ass-end, as well as put new floor pans in it..  Since it's a Super Beetle the pans are more of a hassle to replace, but now that I've moved and have a separate garage just for the Bug, I'm planning on getting busy on it over the fall..

/end of non-related threadjack
 
2013-08-19 12:44:04 PM  
My first car was a Ford Econoline with a bed in the back. All it got me was the nickname "Chester the Molester".

Smeggy Smurf: studebaker hoch: A car will not get you laid.

A private dorm room will get you laid.

Buy a van with a bed in it.  That will get you laid.

I'm going to buy my stepdaughter's first vehicle.  A beat to hell truck.  She'll pay for gas, I'll teach her to change the oil.  I'll pay for the liability insurance.  I'm thinking something along the lines of a late 80's Chevy half ton pickup.  Preferably with a shiatty paint job, a V-6 and the dents will have dents.

 
2013-08-19 01:11:05 PM  

wingnut396: MonoChango: A pair of wire snips will also take care of that problem.  Snip - No more check engine light. I know it isn't a good solution but it is a solution.

It may turn off the light, but it sure as fark does not turn off the code the ODBII reader will pickup as soon as you plug it in.

Not sure where everyone lives, but here you can't get an inspection if the CEL is on.  So, don't farking go until it is fixed.  Many times it is simply a bad sensor.  If you want to see what is wrong before taking it to a mechanic, take it to AutoZone or other parts places and they will read your code for free.  You can also get your own reader for well under 50 bucks (look at how much the price has dropped on this one, from $131,000 to $20.  Bargain!).  You can even reset codes, but some inspection stations will check for that.  Get the code and the hit the net for what it may be.  You may not always get the right answer, but you can get close.  Better, you can have idea of what is wrong before you go to a mechanic.  Now some codes may mask other issues, but generally this stuff is pretty farking good.


Not being afraid of a little work can get you far. I do most of my own automotive work. On one of my cars I recently replaced the blown turbo, exhaust manifold, downpipe, and alternator. After I got it bolted back together the car threw a code. I got it read and the code came up as 'Insufficient Coolant Temperature". After some digging around it seems that when my particular car throws that code it's most commonly the front O2 sensor. I got a new sensor, muscled the old one out, got the new one in, lifted my battery cable to reset the code, and took it for emissions the next day. It passed just fine.

Being willing to do a little research and not being afraid of getting dirty goes a long way with modern cars. So either dive in yourself or get in good with someone with a stocked garage of tools and convince them to part with their free time.

/Car just blew the head gasket. Also due for the timing belt and water pump.
//Not sure if I'll be lazy and pay someone or do it myself.
///Money is tight right now, though...
 
2013-08-19 01:43:07 PM  

robodog: The biggest problem is a tightening of the used market, between cash for clunkers, the decrease in production from 08-11, and the decrease in disposable income for the middle class there's been a very easily noticed increase in the cost of used cars. I've never owned a new car, always preferring to allow someone else to take the depreciation hit, but I'm very seriously considering it for my next vehicle as used cars are no longer the bargain that they used to be.


I see cars all over the place for sub 2k that run.  Also, high school aged kids have always been "under employed" because most of them don't work.  It was that way 10 years, 20 year, or even 50 years ago.  The only really expensive thing comparatively is fuel costs.  However, cars on average have better mileage than they did in the 70's and before.  And if you are working 20 hour weeks at 8 bucks an hour you can sure as hell drive.  Or you could be a bit more intelligent and do some carpooling with co-workers to save on fuel costs.

I also cannot understand this "Living back with mom when 30 mentality".  Yeah, I can understand if you had a run of bad luck.. and need a stay-over place for 6 months to a year to get back on your feet.  But the ones that have either never moved out or have moved out for less than half of their adulthood are just plain loosers
 
2013-08-19 02:16:10 PM  

Kazrath: Also, high school aged kids have always been "under employed" because most of them don't work.  It was that way 10 years, 20 year, or even 50 years ago


Compare the average age of entry-level "high school" jobs now to what they were 50 years ago.  I bet the average age of a minimum wage worker wasn't over thirty years old fifty years ago.

Kazrath: I also cannot understand this "Living back with mom when 30 mentality".


In an economy where half the people working at McDonald's are over thirty, why do you have so little understanding of people who can't get a decent job choosing to save money? Followup: you do realize that it is only a recent and almost uniquely American concept for everyone to leave the nest at twenty, right? Multi-generation households are the norm in most of the world.  The only reason that ever changed here was cheap cars and cheaper gas. Gas cost about 30 cents a gallon fifty years ago. Even ignoring job availability, as well as the value of a high school education for straight out of high school jobs (shop classes and tradeskill orientation are a whole lot slimmer pickings nowadays), the cost of gas has gone up quite a bit faster than the minimum wage. Now tack on the increasing cost of an education while you are at it.

I cannot understand how people can ignore the reality on the ground and judge people both as stupid for not magically getting good employment and at the same time call them stupid for not spending money they don't have.
 
2013-08-19 02:16:32 PM  

Smackledorfer: Yes, mooching is what friends allow their friends to do when they are in need. It is not what people playing the 'i did it all on my own' card while mocking anyone else saying times are tough should be saying. You also said you had the second job just one year, and you quit that to enjoy the excellent opportunity to go overseas.

Your post is full of others helping you and you pretending you were the hardest worker of all time (who somehow earned 6k in one year, something that CANNOT be high hours even at minimum wage). You are either delusional and think you are being honest, or you are lying.


And when did I say that I was the "hardest worker of all time"?  I did make 6k ONE YEAR, the last year I was there...one year I topped out at 10-11k...WOW.  I was rich.  I don't see what my trips to Australia or Japan had to do with crap, since I still paid for them.  Even when I went to Australia, I still had to pay my bills at home...they didn't "magically" disappear

The point of my post was that people need to stop coming up with excuses why they can't do something and find a way TO do it.  This obviously excludes people incapable for reasons of illness or disability.  But everyone wants to tell college students that their overwhelming debt they racked up during college isn't their fault...well, that's not true.  Just like the people that bought houses that were too expensive for them aren't absolved of responsibility.  Simply because you can get the money doesn't mean you should.  So these adults are graduating college needing a 6-figure salary to pay their debts and live independently, and are crushed by the reality that they won't get that.  Then they complain about it, because they have to stay at home and can't afford a car, rent or insurance.  You don't have to be the "hardest worker of all time" to not be in that situation, but you do have to make better choices and work along the way...that was MY point.  I chose a cheaper, in-state public university, and I lived off-campus in the ghetto district with a ghetto car, so that when I had the opportunity to DO the things I wanted to do came up- like go to Japan or Australia, or move to another state and look for work- I was able to do that and live independently, because I knew that I had no support back home.  I'm fully onboard with student loan reform, but I don't think anyone should be expecting the government to magically whisk away their debt simply because they took too much money out and can't repay it.
 
2013-08-19 02:35:48 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: I tried to get a summer job, and the only one offered to me was a courier at my step-dad's real estate company. I would have been out walking during the hottest part of the day, and only making $15 per hour.


Aren't  you the guy who is always complaining that you are held down because you are black.  And now you are posting how a $15 an hour job isn't good enough for you?

We'll, you're entertaining me, at least.
 
2013-08-19 02:40:32 PM  
What jobs subby?   What jobs are available out there?  There are far more people looking for work then there are jobs for them.
 
2013-08-19 02:52:11 PM  

Smackledorfer: Kazrath: Also, high school aged kids have always been "under employed" because most of them don't work.  It was that way 10 years, 20 year, or even 50 years ago

Compare the average age of entry-level "high school" jobs now to what they were 50 years ago.  I bet the average age of a minimum wage worker wasn't over thirty years old fifty years ago.

Kazrath: I also cannot understand this "Living back with mom when 30 mentality".

In an economy where half the people working at McDonald's are over thirty, why do you have so little understanding of people who can't get a decent job choosing to save money? Followup: you do realize that it is only a recent and almost uniquely American concept for everyone to leave the nest at twenty, right? Multi-generation households are the norm in most of the world.  The only reason that ever changed here was cheap cars and cheaper gas. Gas cost about 30 cents a gallon fifty years ago. Even ignoring job availability, as well as the value of a high school education for straight out of high school jobs (shop classes and tradeskill orientation are a whole lot slimmer pickings nowadays), the cost of gas has gone up quite a bit faster than the minimum wage. Now tack on the increasing cost of an education while you are at it.

I cannot understand how people can ignore the reality on the ground and judge people both as stupid for not magically getting good employment and at the same time call them stupid for not spending money they don't have.


First lets address the fuel costs.  I already indicated they are a little skewed but not as bad as you think.  At 30 cents a gallon when minimum wage was 1 dollar would make fuel about 70% more expensive now.  However, as I have also indicated fuel economy is better now.  I am not going to figure out all of the maths but I bet is is in the 30-50% more expensive range per mile.

Since you know nothing about me and assume a bunch of BS let me inform you:

Why does 30 year olds living with mom bother me?  Lets see.  Maybe it is called self respect?  I moved out while I was still in high school at 17 after getting into a pretty brutal fist fight with my step father (We now get along great 18 years later).  I have never stepped into a single college class and yet have some how managed to keep a roof over my head for 18 years.  How? Sacrifice and making good choices.  At 17 I stayed at a friends to finish out high school (about 4 months) then went and worked at a resort for a little over a year.  At 19 I was living with 11 other 17-19 year olds in a 4 bedroom house with a garage.  We slept 2 to a room and all worked when we could.  Eventually at 20 I found a solid full time job making about 2 bucks more than minimum wage.  Moved out with 1 other guy and lived with him for several years.  I currently make around double the median household income for this state.

I am not Republican, I don't vote Republican, most of their views are just wrong.  However, I also cannot forgive people who do not try.  I am inherently lazy and yet have managed to make it.  Sure, I am probably naturally more talented than average but being a lazy ass that means that someone who actually is not lazy and actually tries should be able to accomplish similar or more.

And finally, If there is a choice of only one thing you should ever be able to do in this life it should be the ability to take care of yourself.  If as an adult you require someone else to take care of you and you are not at some inherent disadvantage (mental / physical handicap etc.) then you are indeed a loser.
 
2013-08-19 03:04:41 PM  
"Oh, get a job? Just get a job? Why don't I strap on my job helmet, and squeeze into a job cannon and fire off into job land, where jobs grow on jobbies!"
- Charlie Day, It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia


/Can't believe no one has posted this yet.
 
2013-08-19 03:05:41 PM  

Warlordtrooper: What jobs subby?   What jobs are available out there?  There are far more people looking for work then there are jobs for them.


Try going to your local stables and offering to shovel shiat...

Nobody wants to do it, and they might teach you something useful besides....

Werked fer me....
 
2013-08-19 03:32:42 PM  

bongon247: Warlordtrooper: What jobs subby?   What jobs are available out there?  There are far more people looking for work then there are jobs for them.

Try going to your local stables and offering to shovel shiat...

Nobody wants to do it, and they might teach you something useful besides....

Werked fer me....


Woah woah woah, not all of us live in some sorta fancy pants richie rich area where theres stables to be mucked just down the road.
 
2013-08-19 04:03:37 PM  

bongon247: Warlordtrooper: What jobs subby?   What jobs are available out there?  There are far more people looking for work then there are jobs for them.

Try going to your local stables and offering to shovel shiat...


I've done that.  But that doesn't mean there are a lot of jobs doing that around here.  Also, the job was a lot more than mucking stalls.  It was also caring for the horses and taking tourists out on trail rides.  You don't get handed responsibility of a dozen idiots on horseback without being a damn skilled equestrian and having a few other important skills (like basic first aid).
 
2013-08-19 04:10:45 PM  

Kazrath: Why does 30 year olds living with mom bother me?  Lets see.  Maybe it is called self respect?


Depends on your situation.  Moving out as soon as possible is a relatively new thing for families.  For quite some time, it is was perfectly fine to live in a family house or extended house.  This allow young people to leverage older member of the family to help watch and raise children.  It allows the older member to have younger members around for support.  It is not a bad thing in an of itself.  In many parts of the world, this is still the norm.  Granted in the industrialized world, it can be more difficult if some members need to move for schools, career and the like.

Personally, I moved out fairly soon, but in hind sight it was pretty farking stupid.  I didn't have the problems you did, but I went to incur rental and all those other expenses because otherwise you were a loser.  I should have stayed home and saved that money instead.  I pretty much had an apartment like area of the house anyway.  I'll have no problem if my kids want to stay for a while.
 
2013-08-19 04:48:25 PM  

wingnut396: Kazrath: Why does 30 year olds living with mom bother me?  Lets see.  Maybe it is called self respect?

Depends on your situation.  Moving out as soon as possible is a relatively new thing for families.   For quite some time, it is was perfectly fine to live in a family house or extended house.  This allow young people to leverage older member of the family to help watch and raise children.  It allows the older member to have younger members around for support.  It is not a bad thing in an of itself.  In many parts of the world, this is still the norm.  Granted in the industrialized world, it can be more difficult if some members need to move for schools, career and the like.

Personally, I moved out fairly soon, but in hind sight it was pretty farking stupid.  I didn't have the problems you did, but I went to incur rental and all those other expenses because otherwise you were a loser.  I should have stayed home and saved that money instead.  I pretty much had an apartment like area of the house anyway.  I'll have no problem if my kids want to stay for a while.


==========

There are quite a few Indian (as in South Asian) families that live around here.  I don't know of a single household that is just kids and parents.  Usually it's grandparents, kids, grand-kids, unmarried aunts/uncles/cousins, etc.   BTW, they all have nice new cars.
 
2013-08-19 04:58:38 PM  

wingnut396: Kazrath: Why does 30 year olds living with mom bother me?  Lets see.  Maybe it is called self respect?

Depends on your situation.  Moving out as soon as possible is a relatively new thing for families.  For quite some time, it is was perfectly fine to live in a family house or extended house.  This allow young people to leverage older member of the family to help watch and raise children.  It allows the older member to have younger members around for support.  It is not a bad thing in an of itself.  In many parts of the world, this is still the norm.  Granted in the industrialized world, it can be more difficult if some members need to move for schools, career and the like.

Personally, I moved out fairly soon, but in hind sight it was pretty farking stupid.  I didn't have the problems you did, but I went to incur rental and all those other expenses because otherwise you were a loser.  I should have stayed home and saved that money instead.  I pretty much had an apartment like area of the house anyway.  I'll have no problem if my kids want to stay for a while.


This.

Throughout most of human history, people lived with or very close to their extended families and supported each other.  Imagine that.  This whole bootstrappy nonsense where you're not a real man unless you left home at 14, worked three jobs, ate dirt, and financed your PhD by selling your blood plasma is baloney.

As to the issue at hand, some reasons off the top of my head why today's youth do not yearn for a car:

1) They are more connected online
2) Insurance is ridiculously expensive
3) Home entertainment is on par with going out
4) No money - youth unemployment is quite high.  And those with a job are lucky to get 10 hrs/wk.
5) There's nowhere to go
a) suburbia has pretty much killed hangouts like dirt roads, vacant lots, long straight roads for racing
b) teens are no longer welcome in public - just read any "kid thread" on Fark.  Minors are the only group of humans left that are socially acceptable to declare your hatred for, and so people do.  It's gotten to the point where even shopping malls ban teenagers unless accompanied by a parent.
 
2013-08-19 05:31:05 PM  
First car was a 10-year-old station wagon. I think it cost $900. It wasn't a great car, but it was a car. So there's that. Then I bought a new truck. Should have bought used, but that's one of those things that you learn from being young and dumb. Don't buy a new car when you're barely making any money (or have a rich mommy/daddy who will buy a car for you). But I drove that truck for 10 years. Then got a couple of used cars. Geo Tracker (not a great car, but it was cute). Then a Toyota Echo, which was a pretty good car, got great mileage. Just got rid of it after driving it for about 10 years.

Just bought a new car. fark it, I'm employed and have money saved up. It's a Honda. Gets good mileage. And the safety features that come with a recently manufactured vehicle.

But if you're young and just starting out and don't have a ton of money, don't buy new. Buy used. Try not to get reamed on the interest rate. Buy a boring commuter car, like a Camry or Corolla.
 
2013-08-19 06:09:41 PM  

Red_Fox: thenumber5: well, when i got my first car in 2000

i could fill it up with ~15 dollars a week

now to fill up my car it runs about 40


I often wonder if you Americans have any idea how cheap your gas is compared to even your next door neighbours?  You think 40$ to fill your car is expensive?  That's what it cost in Toronto 20 years ago.  I drive a Mazda 3, 2006 regular base model, and it cost 65$ to fill my tank this weekend.  It was nearly empty, we pay over 1.30 per litre.  Contrary to popular belief we actually make LESS money than at most equivalent jobs in the USA.  So quit your biatching..we actually don't have it that bad and you really have it EASY.  You would lose your minds if you found out how much they pay for gas in the EU.


A: you have a 16 gallon tank, i have a 12 gallon tank
B: you have much better access to public transport systems
C: you live in a "Big City", i live on a coast line that is spread over 26 miles
D: i would pay 15 dollars a gallon, if i had the access to Subway or bus system(that worked)
E: As my other points, pointed out. in the US we are much more spread out and in most places your whole economic livelihood is based on being able to get from a to b in a timely matter
 
2013-08-19 06:17:02 PM  

Fissile: wingnut396: Kazrath: Why does 30 year olds living with mom bother me?  Lets see.  Maybe it is called self respect?

Depends on your situation.  Moving out as soon as possible is a relatively new thing for families.   For quite some time, it is was perfectly fine to live in a family house or extended house.  This allow young people to leverage older member of the family to help watch and raise children.  It allows the older member to have younger members around for support.  It is not a bad thing in an of itself.  In many parts of the world, this is still the norm.  Granted in the industrialized world, it can be more difficult if some members need to move for schools, career and the like.

Personally, I moved out fairly soon, but in hind sight it was pretty farking stupid.  I didn't have the problems you did, but I went to incur rental and all those other expenses because otherwise you were a loser.  I should have stayed home and saved that money instead.  I pretty much had an apartment like area of the house anyway.  I'll have no problem if my kids want to stay for a while.

==========

There are quite a few Indian (as in South Asian) families that live around here.  I don't know of a single household that is just kids and parents.  Usually it's grandparents, kids, grand-kids, unmarried aunts/uncles/cousins, etc.   BTW, they all have nice new cars.


the Italian side of my family grew up that way. They had a 4-family house in Brooklyn (mortgage free); none of them had a particularly high paying job but always managed to have nice cars. After my dad moved in with my mom, the roster included a cadillac, t-bird convertible, skylark convertible, and a corvette l88.
 
2013-08-19 07:40:35 PM  

RockofAges: /before that, 1992 plymouth acclaim, 2years of service, $800.
//before that, 1993 plymouth acclaim (4cyl), 2 years of service, $700


Old man car high-five! I'm a week away from retiring my grandpa's 1990 Acclaim with 184,000km on it, and damn am I going to miss the plush dark red velvet interior. I've driven it for five years through all the weather Western Canada can throw at you, put four tires on it and did changed the transmission fluid at 160,000 km two years ago but otherwise it's cost me nothing more than {very cheap} insurance, gas, and oil changes. If the shocks weren't so tired I'd probably drive it another year..
 
2013-08-19 07:46:44 PM  

thomps: Voodoo_Stu: I've been thinking about going carless, but I have to ask any one who has:  How the heck do you get groceries home?

zipcar for big grocery runs, backpack for small ones.


(Saw this one a lot bagging groceries near an impoverished area in the days before zipcar)

Take public transportation or walk to the store.  Make purchases.  Call taxi to bring you and your groceries home.
 
2013-08-19 07:56:25 PM  

Cyno01: bongon247: Warlordtrooper: What jobs subby?   What jobs are available out there?  There are far more people looking for work then there are jobs for them.

Try going to your local stables and offering to shovel shiat...

Nobody wants to do it, and they might teach you something useful besides....

Werked fer me....

Woah woah woah, not all of us live in some sorta fancy pants richie rich area where theres stables to be mucked just down the road.


Erm, I grew up in a place called San Bernardino, CA.  You can figure that math for yourself...I lived on the North End.  You research the demographics and tell me if you think I was rich.
 
2013-08-19 08:01:55 PM  

OgreMagi: bongon247: Warlordtrooper: What jobs subby?   What jobs are available out there?  There are far more people looking for work then there are jobs for them.

Try going to your local stables and offering to shovel shiat...

I've done that.  But that doesn't mean there are a lot of jobs doing that around here.  Also, the job was a lot more than mucking stalls.  It was also caring for the horses and taking tourists out on trail rides.  You don't get handed responsibility of a dozen idiots on horseback without being a damn skilled equestrian and having a few other important skills (like basic first aid).

Nobody wants to do it
, and they might teach you something useful besides....


You start by shoveling shiat...
 
2013-08-19 08:11:11 PM  

bongon247: OgreMagi: bongon247: Warlordtrooper: What jobs subby?   What jobs are available out there?  There are far more people looking for work then there are jobs for them.

Try going to your local stables and offering to shovel shiat...

I've done that.  But that doesn't mean there are a lot of jobs doing that around here.  Also, the job was a lot more than mucking stalls.  It was also caring for the horses and taking tourists out on trail rides.  You don't get handed responsibility of a dozen idiots on horseback without being a damn skilled equestrian and having a few other important skills (like basic first aid).

Nobody wants to do it, and they might teach you something useful besides....

You start by shoveling shiat...


Not around here.  If you want to work with horses, you muck the stalls, feed the horses, brush them, clean their hooves, saddle them up, take the tourists out, then clean up afterwards.  There is no "start with cleaning the stalls".
 
2013-08-19 09:25:12 PM  
If only there were some way to make a beginning at such a thing...

Like asking for a chance and working hard, instead of making excuses for ones self...

It doesn't work that way around here either, nor where I grew up, nor anywhere else I have ever been.

Candyass
 
2013-08-19 10:36:22 PM  
ah der - this is because there is no more middle class - what kid can afford a car now?
 
2013-08-19 11:17:43 PM  

bongon247: If only there were some way to make a beginning at such a thing...

Like asking for a chance and working hard, instead of making excuses for ones self...

It doesn't work that way around here either, nor where I grew up, nor anywhere else I have ever been.

Candyass


Despite being pointed out multiple times that the youth unemployment rate is through the roof, that there simply aren't jobs available for young people, you continue to scream how lazy kids are these days.

Dumbass
 
2013-08-19 11:46:38 PM  
"Another reason often cited is money. Maynard says the average cost of a new car is about $30,000, before factoring in car insurance."

That thar is part of the problem, folks.  These entitled little shiats think they are soooo precious that they must have a brand new car before they can drive.  I, and I suspect most folks in this thread, had something a bit less impressive as a first vehicle.  Mine was a 9 yr old 76 pinto wagon with 70k miles on it.  That might seem virtually new nowadays but that was a fairly well aged car back then since 100k miles was pretty much the most you could expect from a vehicle of that era.

These kiddies need to wake the fark up and accept that they will not always get new, high-end things handed to them on a silver platter.  They could instead buy a new $12k Nissan Versa, or a used one, or even get something much cheaper.  There are plenty of cars with considerable life left in them for $2500 or so on craigslist.  As far as maintenance they could do this amazing never heard of thing and actually learn to perform basic maintenance themselves.  I know, I know. It is a stunning concept and would not allow them to feel as important as they would feel if they just forked over their money for someone else to do it.
 
2013-08-19 11:49:19 PM  

ferretman: This article surprises me. I thought Obama had turned the economy around and there were jobs galore.


There are! You just need 3 of them because none of them give you more than 29 hours at minimum wage or less anymore.
 
2013-08-19 11:57:08 PM  

OgreMagi: bongon247: If only there were some way to make a beginning at such a thing...

Like asking for a chance and working hard, instead of making excuses for ones self...

It doesn't work that way around here either, nor where I grew up, nor anywhere else I have ever been.

Candyass

Despite being pointed out multiple times that the youth unemployment rate is through the roof, that there simply aren't jobs available for young people, you continue to scream how lazy kids are these days.

Dumbass


The point is they don't need to wait to have a Mcjob handed to them.  They could go out and be a bit more entrepreneurial.  There are plenty of people that need work done or have a need that isn't being fulfilled.  You just need to go identify one of those needs and how to fill it, then go out and start a business. Todays youts seem to think the only jobs out there are with an already established company.  They don't even seem to consider the idea of working for themselves.

Not to mention I just don't buy the idea that jobs are that scarce.  You just have to be willing to do more than sit back and wait for them to come to you.  The company I work for hired a dozen or so summer interns mostly from Berkeley and Stanford for entry level engineering roles.  One got his job by directly contacting the company VP via linked in.  Not likely to be successful in most cases but clearly worth a shot.
 
2013-08-20 12:02:58 AM  

Ima4nic8or: OgreMagi: bongon247: If only there were some way to make a beginning at such a thing...

Like asking for a chance and working hard, instead of making excuses for ones self...

It doesn't work that way around here either, nor where I grew up, nor anywhere else I have ever been.

Candyass

Despite being pointed out multiple times that the youth unemployment rate is through the roof, that there simply aren't jobs available for young people, you continue to scream how lazy kids are these days.

Dumbass

The point is they don't need to wait to have a Mcjob handed to them.  They could go out and be a bit more entrepreneurial.  There are plenty of people that need work done or have a need that isn't being fulfilled.  You just need to go identify one of those needs and how to fill it, then go out and start a business. Todays youts seem to think the only jobs out there are with an already established company.  They don't even seem to consider the idea of working for themselves.

Not to mention I just don't buy the idea that jobs are that scarce.  You just have to be willing to do more than sit back and wait for them to come to you.  The company I work for hired a dozen or so summer interns mostly from Berkeley and Stanford for entry level engineering roles.  One got his job by directly contacting the company VP via linked in.  Not likely to be successful in most cases but clearly worth a shot.


You comparing engineering students from Berkeley and Stanford to high schools kids looking for jobs to pay for a ride might be the stupidest thing I read all week, and I just spent 30 minutes reading through a Fark gun thread.
 
2013-08-20 12:10:34 AM  
The same thing applies to the younger teens.  My neighbors 16 year old is a good example.  He doesn't have a formal job but does tons of odd work around the neighborhood: mowing lawns, walking dogs, trimming trees, etc..  It isn't his desired vocation but it puts a few dollars in his pocket and far more importantly it gets him frequent contact with people that have jobs and may know of an opportunity somewhere.  He could sit back and whine about the lack of jobs for teens but instead he identified something that could earn him a few bucks and got off his ass and put out a few fliers.
 
2013-08-20 12:12:45 AM  

Ima4nic8or: These kiddies need to wake the fark up and accept that they will not always get new, high-end things handed to them on a silver platter.  They could instead buy a new $12k Nissan Versa, or a used one, or even get something much cheaper.  There are plenty of cars with considerable life left in them for $2500 or so on craigslist.  As far as maintenance they could do this amazing never heard of thing and actually learn to perform basic maintenance themselves.  I know, I know. It is a stunning concept and would not allow them to feel as important as they would feel if they just forked over their money for someone else to do it.


Most kids can't afford a $12k car either. And the cheaper ones? An unreliable car can be worse than no car.
You fix it up, take out insurance and ta-da, it dumps you on the side of the road, causing you to miss work at the new job you needed to pay for it. Employers don't care what you're car problem is. You're unreliable now.
 
2013-08-20 12:13:36 AM  
*your, you're
 
2013-08-20 12:18:22 AM  
Ima4nic8or:
The point is they don't need to wait to have a Mcjob handed to them.  They could go out and be a bit more entrepreneurial.  There are plenty of people that need work done or have a need that isn't being fulfilled.  You just need to go identify one of those needs and how to fill it, then go out and start a business. Todays youts seem to think the only jobs out there are with an already established company.  They don't even seem to consider the idea of working for themselves.

Start your own business, borrow $20,000 from your parents if you have to!

Oh yeah, and if your neighbors can't afford to put meat on the table, they're not gonna hire a dang dog walker!
 
2013-08-20 12:20:48 AM  

Ima4nic8or: OgreMagi: bongon247: If only there were some way to make a beginning at such a thing...

Like asking for a chance and working hard, instead of making excuses for ones self...

It doesn't work that way around here either, nor where I grew up, nor anywhere else I have ever been.

Candyass

Despite being pointed out multiple times that the youth unemployment rate is through the roof, that there simply aren't jobs available for young people, you continue to scream how lazy kids are these days.

Dumbass

The point is they don't need to wait to have a Mcjob handed to them.  They could go out and be a bit more entrepreneurial.  There are plenty of people that need work done or have a need that isn't being fulfilled.  You just need to go identify one of those needs and how to fill it, then go out and start a business. Todays youts seem to think the only jobs out there are with an already established company.  They don't even seem to consider the idea of working for themselves.

Not to mention I just don't buy the idea that jobs are that scarce.  You just have to be willing to do more than sit back and wait for them to come to you.  The company I work for hired a dozen or so summer interns mostly from Berkeley and Stanford for entry level engineering roles.  One got his job by directly contacting the company VP via linked in.  Not likely to be successful in most cases but clearly worth a shot.


There are no jobs.
They're just lazy.
There are no jobs.
They're just lazy.

I won't waste my farking time posting a chart showing the unemployment rate for young people that shows THERE ARE NO FARKING JOBS because you'll repeat "they're just lazy".

You are the perfect example of why people thing republicans are giant douchebags.
 
2013-08-20 12:39:15 AM  

tbhouston: Revmachine21


Car and cat counting the same. ZERO! Yay for zero.
 
2013-08-20 02:21:51 AM  

Harry_Seldon: tinfoil-hat maggie: ArmednHammered: Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.

WHAT! I could have gotten The Clash for my clunker? Son of  Biatch did I miss a deal!
What the Clash might have looked like...

[i773.photobucket.com image 287x176]

You sir are brilliant : )

How funny, I really typed "Clash." Many years ago, I had to play "chaperone" for the members of The Clash in Los Angeles. They were doing a publicity event, and my job was to keep them out of trouble for the day.


That's the most interesting thing I've heard all day - what was that like for you?
 
2013-08-20 03:39:20 AM  
I can't speak for young men, but young women can start a cam and make 1 to 20k a month.
 
2013-08-20 04:22:35 AM  

bborchar: JorgiX: As a teen, I am getting a kick of this thread. The disconnect between what was reality decades ago and what it is now is immense, but what seems even more alarming is that some people's perception has not changed at all.

To start, cars are not as cheap as they used to be. I do not have empirical data to support Cash for Clunkers as the reason, but it is clear that it is almost impossible to find even the shiattiest of cars for under $1000.

Part-time jobs are not as plentiful as they were before. Sure, you had three jobs in high school and could afford an old car and maybe even a place to live. Well now in a ton of markets you are not competing for those jobs with a bunch of teens, you are also competing with people that were pushed out of their jobs by the recession and have as many years in experience as you living on this planet. I don't blame hiring managers for choosing them since they don't only have more experience, but are a much steadier source of labor when you consider that they might be stuck there for a while and are not leaving for college or the military any time soon. Multiple jobs are almost a thing of the past in some particularly hit regions.

The cost of things has risen astronomically faster than wages. This obviously affects everyone, but young people might be the group that has been hit the hardest. Again, I do not have any empirical data to support this, but it sure seems that way. The cost of college continues to rise, aid is not as comprehensive as it was before, and other things particularly relevant to  young people (technology, clothing, student housing, etc.)  continue to rise in price. Couple that to the lack of jobs, and the fact that you have never lived to work during the good times and hence you have no savings, and the picture becomes quite dire.

Paid internships are increasingly harder to come by. Even large companies in lucrative sectors like finance and technology keep making intern positions unpaid and still getting ...


The economic crisis happened on their watch, and they are the ones who chose to have kids while also choosing to defund schools, slash social programs, and remove nonacademic tracks. If we must distribute blame, it's clear the youngest generation can't possibly bear the brunt of it.

This isn't about generational warfare. As much as the current generation should not be called lazy and shiftless, they should understand how and why those that came before them failed. Together, we can fix this. But only together.
 
2013-08-20 05:32:02 AM  

solitary: Harry_Seldon: tinfoil-hat maggie: ArmednHammered: Harry_Seldon: Quantum Apostrophe: It can't possibly the end of the cheap energy fiesta and people's priorities change as a consequence?

It is Obama's fault. The Clash for Clunkers program removed large numbers of perfectly good used vehicles from the market.

WHAT! I could have gotten The Clash for my clunker? Son of  Biatch did I miss a deal!
What the Clash might have looked like...

[i773.photobucket.com image 287x176]

You sir are brilliant : )

How funny, I really typed "Clash." Many years ago, I had to play "chaperone" for the members of The Clash in Los Angeles. They were doing a publicity event, and my job was to keep them out of trouble for the day.

That's the most interesting thing I've heard all day - what was that like for you?


Honestly? It was was really unpleasant, and the closest I ever got to getting killed. It was all fun and games until someone pissed of a Hell's Angel.
 
2013-08-20 07:33:15 AM  

Xenomech: they're too damn lazy get a job to buy some wheels

In the 70s, a typical factory worker supporting a family could buy a brand new car and pay it off in one year.

 [citation needed]

Today, a typical white-collar worker in a double-income home supporting a family can buy a brand new car and pay it off in six years.

But, yeah, this has nothing to do with the destruction of the economy by 1%ers over the past 30 years.  It's that people are *lazy* nowadays. (rollseyes)


Or, you know, endless government legislative red tape making cars "safer" and more "economical" and etc which only means increased costs on the automotive industry.  Then there are the unions.  Those aren't cheap.  All of these costs get moved to the consumer.
If Honda could still churn our stamped steel cages that could do 75mpg on a 600cc engine, they'd be just as cheap inflation adjusted, and would be bought in record numbers.  And those 1%ers you decry would be making even more money.  So, it probably wasn't entirely their idea to squash their cash cows.
 
2013-08-20 07:35:38 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: As a 17 year old, we have to deal with a unique situation in American societal history that no previous generations had to contend with. We don't have the access to opportunities that our grandparents did, or the promise of high paying jobs out of high school, or the ability to get a higher education without taking out loans.

I tried to get a summer job, and the only one offered to me was a courier at my step-dad's real estate company. I would have been out walking during the hottest part of the day, and only making $15 per hour.

Excuse us if we're content to stay home and make an impact on the world through blogs and social media instead of working for slave wages so we can live some antiquated American dream.



I was looking for a job, AND THEN I FOUND A JOB, and heaven knows I'm miserable now. The unique situation you have to contend with is that you're a spoiled rotten kid.
 
2013-08-20 09:31:00 AM  

Red_Fox: thenumber5: well, when i got my first car in 2000

i could fill it up with ~15 dollars a week

now to fill up my car it runs about 40


I often wonder if you Americans have any idea how cheap your gas is compared to even your next door neighbours?  You think 40$ to fill your car is expensive?  That's what it cost in Toronto 20 years ago.  I drive a Mazda 3, 2006 regular base model, and it cost 65$ to fill my tank this weekend.  It was nearly empty, we pay over 1.30 per litre.  Contrary to popular belief we actually make LESS money than at most equivalent jobs in the USA.  So quit your biatching..we actually don't have it that bad and you really have it EASY.  You would lose your minds if you found out how much they pay for gas in the EU.


Oh, we're aware, we just regard your high prices as something that you (and the Europeans) have chosen to do to yourselves, and thus its your business.  The only reason your gas is so expensive is because of punitively high gasoline taxes.  I don't see why Americans should care one way or another about your domestic taxation policies.

Though if you feel your gas is too expensive and want to pay less, maybe you should petition your government to lower your gasoline taxes.
 
2013-08-20 10:03:33 AM  

Doc Daneeka: Red_Fox: thenumber5: well, when i got my first car in 2000

i could fill it up with ~15 dollars a week

now to fill up my car it runs about 40


I often wonder if you Americans have any idea how cheap your gas is compared to even your next door neighbours?  You think 40$ to fill your car is expensive?  That's what it cost in Toronto 20 years ago.  I drive a Mazda 3, 2006 regular base model, and it cost 65$ to fill my tank this weekend.  It was nearly empty, we pay over 1.30 per litre.  Contrary to popular belief we actually make LESS money than at most equivalent jobs in the USA.  So quit your biatching..we actually don't have it that bad and you really have it EASY.  You would lose your minds if you found out how much they pay for gas in the EU.

Oh, we're aware, we just regard your high prices as something that you (and the Europeans) have chosen to do to yourselves, and thus its your business.  The only reason your gas is so expensive is because of punitively high gasoline taxes.  I don't see why Americans should care one way or another about your domestic taxation policies.

Though if you feel your gas is too expensive and want to pay less, maybe you should petition your government to lower your gasoline taxes.


Whuuuaaah?  They TAX petrol!?
 
2013-08-20 10:33:11 AM  
Being car-less in rural areas is a huge suck. You're on a short leash, opportunities are limited to walk/ bicycle distance. You will own a backpack for the groceries and beer, or else bum and bribe for rides.
Socially, it kills spontaneity and impulse. Even the most minor event will require pre-planning. Your date won't be impressed- assuming you haven't already been weeded out. One drunk opined "Telling your date you don't have a license is about as bad as telling her you have a kid at home".
I got the hell out by buying a 5-speed stick Fiesta wagon/ mom-mobile dirt cheap and aimed toward Cincinnati where I was invited. They don't have trains and the buses outside of downtown only run a little past 6PM, but it's an improvement.
 
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