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(ESPN)   The NFL's concussion specialist who constantly described concussions as minor injuries is a rheumatologist from Long Island with no expertise in brain research   (espn.go.com) divider line 61
    More: Obvious, Kevin Mawae, Paul Tagliabue, NFL, Long Island, Merril Hoge, Greg Aiello, spinal cord injury, Major League Baseball  
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734 clicks; posted to Sports » on 18 Aug 2013 at 3:34 PM (34 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-18 01:07:03 PM
In 2005, Pellman and two colleagues on the MTBI committee tried unsuccessfully to force the retraction of a peer-reviewed paper asserting that football gave Hall of Fame center Mike Webster brain damage. The demand was seen as highly unusual in a scientific journal because such actions are normally reserved for transgressions such as fraud or plagiarism

Whoops.  That won't look good to a jury.
 
2013-08-18 01:32:30 PM
Ain't that a kick in the head?
 
2013-08-18 01:40:34 PM
Billions of dollars, billions of dollars...do it, players.
 
2013-08-18 01:55:40 PM
autoplay videos make the baby jeebus cry.
 
2013-08-18 02:04:13 PM
Yeah, concusions aren't serious. Just as Chris Benoit!
 
2013-08-18 03:02:55 PM

robsul82: Billions of dollars, billions of dollars...do it, players.


i41.tinypic.com
 
2013-08-18 03:03:15 PM
Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.
 
2013-08-18 03:23:20 PM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.


I don't think it'll take that long, a few dads I know that had their kids in football took them out (or won't let them start)
 
2013-08-18 03:29:04 PM

dj_bigbird: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.

I don't think it'll take that long, a few dads I know that had their kids in football took them out (or won't let them start)


Yeah, I think the future is pretty bleak for football.  I seriously do believe now -- and I never did before -- that in 20 years or so, soccer will have taken its place as one of the Big Three major league sports in the US.  Kids are growing up playing it, and there's more and more high-quality soccer on TV now (hell, every single EPL game will be on American TV this season.)
 
2013-08-18 03:31:50 PM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.


I don't predict that ever happening.  Football is by far the most popular sport in the US, and even at the high school level it's practically a religion in many areas across the south.

It's a dangerous sport and you can get hurt, but they have been advancing helmet technology and adapting the rules to try to reduce the number of injuries.

The players are smaller and the hits less forceful at the high school level as well.
 
2013-08-18 03:42:22 PM

jake_lex: dj_bigbird: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.

I don't think it'll take that long, a few dads I know that had their kids in football took them out (or won't let them start)

Yeah, I think the future is pretty bleak for football.  I seriously do believe now -- and I never did before -- that in 20 years or so, soccer will have taken its place as one of the Big Three major league sports in the US.  Kids are growing up playing it, and there's more and more high-quality soccer on TV now (hell, every single EPL game will be on American TV this season.)


There are concussions in Soccer as well. I quoted the stats is some other thread. Some 50% of elite soccer players suffered at least 1 concussion within a 10 year span. Of course, not near the number incurred by football players, and most attributed to incorrect heading. By the same token, it will probably be shown that banging your head repeatedly, even if it doesn't result in a concussion, may have deleterious consequences.
 
2013-08-18 03:42:28 PM

TuteTibiImperes: but they have been advancing helmet technology


There are physical limitations to how good helmet technology can possibly get. When you bring an object from full run to dead stop in milliseconds, the impulse is going to do damage. There are practical limitations to how large helmets can actually be.

TuteTibiImperes: The players are smaller and the hits less forceful at the high school level as well.


Their brains are more vulnerable to concussions, too, and the effects of a concussion can be much more severe.

In any case, the concussion issue remains a canard. It's CTE that really scares the NFL, and there's really  nothing that can be done against CTE without changing the game significantly.
 
2013-08-18 03:48:17 PM

simplicimus: jake_lex: dj_bigbird: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.

I don't think it'll take that long, a few dads I know that had their kids in football took them out (or won't let them start)

Yeah, I think the future is pretty bleak for football.  I seriously do believe now -- and I never did before -- that in 20 years or so, soccer will have taken its place as one of the Big Three major league sports in the US.  Kids are growing up playing it, and there's more and more high-quality soccer on TV now (hell, every single EPL game will be on American TV this season.)

There are concussions in Soccer as well. I quoted the stats is some other thread. Some 50% of elite soccer players suffered at least 1 concussion within a 10 year span. Of course, not near the number incurred by football players, and most attributed to incorrect heading. By the same token, it will probably be shown that banging your head repeatedly, even if it doesn't result in a concussion, may have deleterious consequences.


Nevermind the headers, think about how many times their heads hit the ground.
 
2013-08-18 03:49:56 PM

Marcus Aurelius: In 2005, Pellman and two colleagues on the MTBI committee tried unsuccessfully to force the retraction of a peer-reviewed paper asserting that football gave Hall of Fame center Mike Webster brain damage. The demand was seen as highly unusual in a scientific journal because such actions are normally reserved for transgressions such as fraud or plagiarism

Whoops.  That won't look good to a jury.


Good thing no jury will ever see it. The NFL is going to settle these lawsuits with the money a beer company pays them for commercial time during the preseason.
 
2013-08-18 03:53:18 PM

jake_lex: dj_bigbird: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.

I don't think it'll take that long, a few dads I know that had their kids in football took them out (or won't let them start)

Yeah, I think the future is pretty bleak for football.  I seriously do believe now -- and I never did before -- that in 20 years or so, soccer will have taken its place as one of the Big Three major league sports in the US.  Kids are growing up playing it, and there's more and more high-quality soccer on TV now (hell, every single EPL game will be on American TV this season.)


In my HS senior year, we lost one of our players to a concussion. That same year we lost three of our soccer players to broken bones, one of them actually broke his leg in two places during Homecoming and another had a ruptured spleen.

So yeah, you keep thinking divegrass is a safer alternative, k?
 
2013-08-18 03:54:03 PM
jake_lex:
Yeah, I think the future is pretty bleak for football.  I seriously do believe now -- and I never did before -- that in 20 years or so, soccer will have taken its place as one of the Big Three major league sports in the US.  Kids are growing up playing it, and there's more and more high-quality soccer on TV now (hell, every single EPL game will be on American TV this season.)

Kids were playing soccer back when I was a kid, the whole 'soccer mom' thing isn't a new invention.

I do think that the popularity of soccer will grow in the US, especially with more immigration and population growth from places where it's already popular.  I don't see it taking over any of the big three (football, baseball, basketball) but it could eventually achieve the legitimacy of hockey in the US.

There's more available on TV today, but that can be said of other sports as well.  There are just more TV channels today, including more devoted to sports, so the programming to fill them has to come from somewhere.
 
2013-08-18 03:54:32 PM

dj_bigbird: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.

I don't think it'll take that long, a few dads I know that had their kids in football took them out (or won't let them start)


My son is never playing football at any level.  It's pretty high risk for not a lot of money even if he makes it to the SEC or NFL.  He's going to be a dentist instead.
 
2013-08-18 03:54:51 PM
I did a postdoctoral fellowship in mild traumatic brain injury, so I'm getting a kick, etc.

It doesn't matter how good your helmets get. Your brain rests on a rough bony shelf in your skull, basically. When you hit your head, your brain bumps up against that rough surface. We used to demonstrate it by taking a blob of gelatin and slidi g it over a fine cheese grater.

A helmet can't help with that. My professors absolutely forbid football or trampolines in their own houses.
 
2013-08-18 03:55:43 PM

js34603: Marcus Aurelius: In 2005, Pellman and two colleagues on the MTBI committee tried unsuccessfully to force the retraction of a peer-reviewed paper asserting that football gave Hall of Fame center Mike Webster brain damage. The demand was seen as highly unusual in a scientific journal because such actions are normally reserved for transgressions such as fraud or plagiarism

Whoops.  That won't look good to a jury.

Good thing no jury will ever see it. The NFL is going to settle these lawsuits with the money a beer company pays them for commercial time during the preseason.


Let us have our moral victories, you buzzkilling crackpot.
 
2013-08-18 03:56:43 PM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.


As long as there are poor black kids in the south we will always have fodder for the NFL.
 
2013-08-18 03:58:23 PM

Janusdog: I did a postdoctoral fellowship in mild traumatic brain injury, so I'm getting a kick, etc.

It doesn't matter how good your helmets get. Your brain rests on a rough bony shelf in your skull, basically. When you hit your head, your brain bumps up against that rough surface. We used to demonstrate it by taking a blob of gelatin and slidi g it over a fine cheese grater.

A helmet can't help with that. My professors absolutely forbid football or trampolines in their own houses.


Because of accidents (falling off & hitting something hard) or just the bouncing?
 
2013-08-18 04:05:37 PM

foo monkey: Janusdog: I did a postdoctoral fellowship in mild traumatic brain injury, so I'm getting a kick, etc.

It doesn't matter how good your helmets get. Your brain rests on a rough bony shelf in your skull, basically. When you hit your head, your brain bumps up against that rough surface. We used to demonstrate it by taking a blob of gelatin and slidi g it over a fine cheese grater.

A helmet can't help with that. My professors absolutely forbid football or trampolines in their own houses.

Because of accidents (falling off & hitting something hard) or just the bouncing?


Falling off and hitting your head on the side or on one of the supports.
 
2013-08-18 04:06:54 PM

rjakobi: jake_lex: dj_bigbird: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.

I don't think it'll take that long, a few dads I know that had their kids in football took them out (or won't let them start)

Yeah, I think the future is pretty bleak for football.  I seriously do believe now -- and I never did before -- that in 20 years or so, soccer will have taken its place as one of the Big Three major league sports in the US.  Kids are growing up playing it, and there's more and more high-quality soccer on TV now (hell, every single EPL game will be on American TV this season.)

In my HS senior year, we lost one of our players to a concussion. That same year we lost three of our soccer players to broken bones, one of them actually broke his leg in two places during Homecoming and another had a ruptured spleen.

So yeah, you keep thinking divegrass is a safer alternative, k?


When I was coaching, I lost a hurdler when she took a spill and got concussed. She had to withdraw from the school because a month or so later, she still couldnt count to 10 without getting confused. It was pretty scary stuff.
 
2013-08-18 04:08:31 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-08-18 04:12:28 PM

rjakobi: jake_lex: dj_bigbird: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.

I don't think it'll take that long, a few dads I know that had their kids in football took them out (or won't let them start)

Yeah, I think the future is pretty bleak for football.  I seriously do believe now -- and I never did before -- that in 20 years or so, soccer will have taken its place as one of the Big Three major league sports in the US.  Kids are growing up playing it, and there's more and more high-quality soccer on TV now (hell, every single EPL game will be on American TV this season.)

In my HS senior year, we lost one of our players to a concussion. That same year we lost three of our soccer players to broken bones, one of them actually broke his leg in two places during Homecoming and another had a ruptured spleen.

So yeah, you keep thinking divegrass is a safer alternative, k?


Soccer players don't get 10 micro concussions every practice
 
2013-08-18 04:13:37 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.

I don't predict that ever happening.  Football is by far the most popular sport in the US, and even at the high school level it's practically a religion in many areas across the south.


...that just means that when insurance companies do stop subsidizing it, they'll all blame it on Obamacare.
 
2013-08-18 04:16:09 PM

MugzyBrown: rjakobi: jake_lex: dj_bigbird: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.

I don't think it'll take that long, a few dads I know that had their kids in football took them out (or won't let them start)

Yeah, I think the future is pretty bleak for football.  I seriously do believe now -- and I never did before -- that in 20 years or so, soccer will have taken its place as one of the Big Three major league sports in the US.  Kids are growing up playing it, and there's more and more high-quality soccer on TV now (hell, every single EPL game will be on American TV this season.)

In my HS senior year, we lost one of our players to a concussion. That same year we lost three of our soccer players to broken bones, one of them actually broke his leg in two places during Homecoming and another had a ruptured spleen.

So yeah, you keep thinking divegrass is a safer alternative, k?

Soccer players don't get 10 micro concussions every practice


Depends if they're doing dive reps.
 
2013-08-18 04:18:32 PM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.


IlGreven: ...that just means that when insurance companies do stop subsidizing it, they'll all blame it on Obamacare.


Y'all aren't familiar with a Hold Harmless agreement I take it?
 
2013-08-18 04:19:04 PM
MugzyBrown:
Soccer players don't get 10 micro concussions every practice

Football players don't either.  Especially at the high school and college level coaches are moving towards having the majority of practices being non-hitting.  Sure, tackling drills are still a necessity and players need some time in full pads with full contact to prepare, but a lot of what needs to be taught can be taught without the tackling and full regalia.
 
2013-08-18 04:19:33 PM

rjakobi: jake_lex: dj_bigbird: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.

I don't think it'll take that long, a few dads I know that had their kids in football took them out (or won't let them start)

Yeah, I think the future is pretty bleak for football.  I seriously do believe now -- and I never did before -- that in 20 years or so, soccer will have taken its place as one of the Big Three major league sports in the US.  Kids are growing up playing it, and there's more and more high-quality soccer on TV now (hell, every single EPL game will be on American TV this season.)

In my HS senior year, we lost one of our players to a concussion. That same year we lost three of our soccer players to broken bones, one of them actually broke his leg in two places during Homecoming and another had a ruptured spleen.

So yeah, you keep thinking divegrass is a safer alternative, k?


TL:DR: ZOMG other sports have injuries, therefore football concussions aren't bad.
 
2013-08-18 04:27:18 PM

Ken VeryBigLiar: Y'all aren't familiar with a Hold Harmless agreement I take it?


Oh, I'm familiar.  I just think it should be illegal in any case where the chance for severe crippling physical injury is greater than minimally possible when the activity is done as prescribed.  Hell, people in those jobs should make that a deal-breaker: If you want me to do this dangerous job, you must assume responsibility for any non-negligent injuries. And in these cases (High-school football), there should never be one, and any parent who agrees to one for a child has just committed child endangerment.

/But that's not the law, so I'm crazy.
 
2013-08-18 05:07:03 PM
This is basically the worst case scenario for the NFL. This is State Tobacco Lawsuit levels of bad
 
2013-08-18 05:15:16 PM
I think it's more telling that Tagliabue has a rheumatologist.  Maybe we can write off him putting Sheriff Godell in charge to a case of lupus.
 
2013-08-18 05:52:13 PM

Ken VeryBigLiar: I think it's more telling that Tagliabue has a rheumatologist.  Maybe we can write off him putting Sheriff Godell in charge to a case of lupus.


Well, have you heard of any cases of cranial arteritis in the NFL? I haven't.
 
2013-08-18 06:02:54 PM

simplicimus: Ken VeryBigLiar: I think it's more telling that Tagliabue has a rheumatologist.  Maybe we can write off him putting Sheriff Godell in charge to a case of lupus.

Well, have you heard of any cases of cranial arteritis in the NFL? I haven't.


static2.businessinsider.com
 
2013-08-18 06:36:47 PM
 He's going to be a dentist instead.

good choice, hot patients under anesthisa, giggity
 
2013-08-18 06:44:03 PM

Ken VeryBigLiar: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.

As long as there are poor black kids in the south we will always have fodder for the NFL.


My high school in FL used to have to play the towns (Belle Glade, Pahokee, Clewiston, etc) around Lake Okeechobee in FL.  They whipped us quite a bit.  More than a few of those kids became stars in college and went to the NFL.  This is a good article that kind of illustrates your point:



When they burn the cane fields around the lake the kids all come down to the fields to catch the rabbits that run from the flames. They catch the rabbits for food and to sell the hides.Some of these kids grew up to become D1 and NFL players. They all grew up black and dirt poor.
 
2013-08-18 06:49:17 PM
"The rules say you can't hit high so I went low and I'm sorry that happened. I would think you'd rather have more concussions than leg injuries. Leg injury, you can't come back from that. A concussion, you be back in a couple in a couple of weeks."

This guy doesn't seem like the type who really will use his brain much in the future.
 
2013-08-18 06:50:39 PM
Damn.  There are too many concussion threads, I'm getting confused.
 
2013-08-18 06:51:55 PM

Igor Jakovsky: Ken VeryBigLiar: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.

As long as there are poor black kids in the south we will always have fodder for the NFL.

My high school in FL used to have to play the towns (Belle Glade, Pahokee, Clewiston, etc) around Lake Okeechobee in FL.  They whipped us quite a bit.  More than a few of those kids became stars in college and went to the NFL.  This is a good article that kind of illustrates your point:

When they burn the cane fields around the lake the kids all come down to the fields to catch the rabbits that run from the flames. They catch the rabbits for food and to sell the hides.Some of these kids grew up to become D1 and NFL players. They all grew up black and dirt poor.


I'd like to read that article, but your link goes back to this thread.
 
2013-08-18 06:56:27 PM

t3knomanser: TuteTibiImperes: but they have been advancing helmet technology

There are physical limitations to how good helmet technology can possibly get. When you bring an object from full run to dead stop in milliseconds, the impulse is going to do damage. There are practical limitations to how large helmets can actually be.

TuteTibiImperes: The players are smaller and the hits less forceful at the high school level as well.

Their brains are more vulnerable to concussions, too, and the effects of a concussion can be much more severe.

In any case, the concussion issue remains a canard. It's CTE that really scares the NFL, and there's really  nothing that can be done against CTE without changing the game significantly.



i.imgur.com
They can't? I think the player's wont wear them because they look silly. Same for MLB batters helmets.
 
2013-08-18 06:59:04 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Igor Jakovsky: Ken VeryBigLiar: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Once insurance companies start denying coverage to high schools unless said schools drop football then it's all over but the shouting.

As long as there are poor black kids in the south we will always have fodder for the NFL.

My high school in FL used to have to play the towns (Belle Glade, Pahokee, Clewiston, etc) around Lake Okeechobee in FL.  They whipped us quite a bit.  More than a few of those kids became stars in college and went to the NFL.  This is a good article that kind of illustrates your point:

When they burn the cane fields around the lake the kids all come down to the fields to catch the rabbits that run from the flames. They catch the rabbits for food and to sell the hides.Some of these kids grew up to become D1 and NFL players. They all grew up black and dirt poor.

I'd like to read that article, but your link goes back to this thread.


haha copy/paste tab fail.  Should have looked at my own link.


Let me try again
 
2013-08-18 07:02:02 PM

Igor Jakovsky: They can't? I think the player's wont wear them because they look silly.


Okay, first off, that particular helmet, by adding a lip, actually increases the risk of neck injury (same for the hemorrhoid-pillow foam-tops they tried for awhile). Second, that's not a significant increase in thickness. While it's  an improvement, the key function here is the peak impulse- the change in momentum over time. Padding can lower the peak impulse by spreading out the entire impact over a longer period of time. An extra inch or two of padding isn't going to make a difference when you go from a full out run to a dead stop- even if you double the duration of the change of momentum, we're still on the realm of milliseconds.
 
2013-08-18 07:51:26 PM

simplicimus: Ken VeryBigLiar: I think it's more telling that Tagliabue has a rheumatologist.  Maybe we can write off him putting Sheriff Godell in charge to a case of lupus.

Well, have you heard of any cases of cranial arteritis in the NFL? I haven't.


Although with the number of Humira ads sure to be running all this NFL season you'd swear 80% of the population suffered from rheumatoid arthritis or ulcerative colitis.
 
2013-08-18 07:53:56 PM
laughingsquid.com
 
2013-08-18 08:17:23 PM
I want to know how they NFLPA is going to defend itself when they get dragged into it about how they fought any safety changes by saying "it ruins the essence of some players abilities" The players are just as much to blame as the owners if they cared then this would have changed decades ago.
 
2013-08-18 08:29:05 PM

steamingpile: I want to know how they NFLPA is going to defend itself when they get dragged into it about how they fought any safety changes by saying "it ruins the essence of some players abilities" The players are just as much to blame as the owners if they cared then this would have changed decades ago.


I just like how some players elect to not wear any leg pads. I get that it's different from the league lying to them about concussion related damage, but holy crap is that dumb.
 
2013-08-18 09:56:47 PM
i'd be curious to know what positions get the most concussions and CTE's
 
2013-08-18 10:35:46 PM

AdamK: i'd be curious to know what positions get the most concussions and CTE's


I'm going to guess that punters and place kickers have the lowest. Highest? At first I'd say linemen, but they generally don't get that much momentum going. So highest I'd go with running backs, maybe wide receivers next.
 
2013-08-18 10:56:41 PM

jake_lex: (hell, every single EPL game will be on American TV this season.)


I suspect this will be what really flips the switch as far as making soccer truly mainstream in the US.  It's hard to make stereotypical soccer jokes while watching EPL.
 
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