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(Slate)   Egypt considers banning the Muslim Brotherhood. There, that should solve everything   (slate.com) divider line 173
    More: Followup, Muslim Brotherhood, Fantastic Four, Egypt, Brotherhood, Supreme Leader of Iran  
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2683 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Aug 2013 at 9:43 AM (34 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-18 07:42:16 AM
And they have come full circle.

Wasn't the revolution about stoping this kind of nonsense?

Then you have the fact that the Muslim brotherhood doesn't want to work with anyone on anything but an Islamic fundamentalist government.

What to do?
 
2013-08-18 08:06:41 AM

cman: What to do?


Ban them, as they should.

They gave them a chance at governance, and the brotherhood blew it. Much like the Republican party, the brotherhood should be banned to protect the majority of sane people in the country.
 
2013-08-18 08:12:30 AM

NewportBarGuy: cman: What to do?

Ban them, as they should.

They gave them a chance at governance, and the brotherhood blew it. Much like the Republican party, the brotherhood should be banned to protect the majority of sane people in the country.


Yep and get them labeled a terrorist organization. The brotherhood was not at interested in the welfare of Egypt, they were interested in their own power.
 
2013-08-18 08:24:08 AM

NewportBarGuy: cman: What to do?

Ban them, as they should.

They gave them a chance at governance, and the brotherhood blew it. Much like the Republican party, the brotherhood should be banned to protect the majority of sane people in the country.


That would be disastrous. The MB was the only group in Egypt providing any kind of social services for decades including basic medical care. Most young Egyptians (even those who voted for MB candidates) did not support Morsi or the older hardliners in the Brotherhood and should have been courted to bolster pro-democracy moderate impulses in the country.

Instead, the military decided to massacre almost one thousand citizens. How many of those youths have been radicalized in the last few days?

There just isn't that much we can do. Our aid to Egypt is a toothpick not a club given how much support they get from the UAE and the Saudis. Any act we take will be purely symbolic at this point leaving us to choose which symbol we wish to embrace.

Sadat is sorely missed.
 
2013-08-18 08:34:53 AM

ginandbacon: Instead, the military decided to massacre almost one thousand citizens. How many of those youths have been radicalized in the last few days?


Changes in governance are historically incredibly bloody. Which is why I laughed heartily at those idiots who thought we could export democracy to Iraq.

The Muslim Brotherhood want to impose Sharia Law on a people who are used to women being somewhat free and alcohol running from the taps. That sh*t ain't gonna fly, no matter how many good deeds they did much as Hamas does good deeds in Lebanon and the territories.

It will require much more bloodshed for Egypt to figure out what direction they are going in, but you can be damn sure they will not coddle the brotherhood after they saw what they did when they had power. They will be crushed until there are many, many more dead bodies.
 
2013-08-18 09:00:41 AM

NewportBarGuy: but you can be damn sure they will not coddle the brotherhood after they saw what they did when they had power.


Who are they here? The military? The military has no interest in allowing any real civilian control. The people? They are now more likely to support the Brotherhood than they were before.

And I think it's a bit simplistic to refer to the MB as a bloc. The old men are certainly very conservative, but the younger supporters included many women and men who were pro-Western and very modern. BTW, I'm not sure what you mean by Sharia. Are you using it as a way to describe fundamentalism? Sharia is a very broad concept that includes things like not charging interest and allowing women to easily divorce. Most Muslims in Egypt have very little interest in the variety of Islam that I think (forgive me if I am wrong) you are talking about.

This a terrible situation and a great tragedy. It's also incredibly complicated and not one I'm sure we in this country can do much about.
 
2013-08-18 09:55:45 AM
www.slate.com
MOOOOOOOOOOVE
 
2013-08-18 09:56:06 AM
They don't really get how Jeffersonian Democracy is supposed to work. Brutal military dictatorship or Muslim theocracy are the two choices.
 
2013-08-18 09:57:49 AM
So the populace elected a bunch of religious zealots into office and are stunned when they act like religious zealots. I have very little sympathy for them.
 
2013-08-18 10:03:29 AM

ginandbacon: NewportBarGuy: cman: What to do?

Ban them, as they should.

They gave them a chance at governance, and the brotherhood blew it. Much like the Republican party, the brotherhood should be banned to protect the majority of sane people in the country.

That would be disastrous. The MB was the only group in Egypt providing any kind of social services for decades including basic medical care. Most young Egyptians (even those who voted for MB candidates) did not support Morsi or the older hardliners in the Brotherhood and should have been courted to bolster pro-democracy moderate impulses in the country.

Instead, the military decided to massacre almost one thousand citizens. How many of those youths have been radicalized in the last few days?

There just isn't that much we can do. Our aid to Egypt is a toothpick not a club given how much support they get from the UAE and the Saudis. Any act we take will be purely symbolic at this point leaving us to choose which symbol we wish to embrace.

Sadat is sorely missed.


Any social services provided by the brotherhood would have been done solely to build up support while they expanded their power.
 
2013-08-18 10:04:03 AM

Whodat: So the populace elected a bunch of religious zealots into office and are stunned when they act like religious zealots. I have very little sympathy for them.


Are you talking about America and the Tea Party?
 
2013-08-18 10:04:21 AM
Here, I fixed this for you ;)

40+ years of democrat/liberal policies in some of the largest cites, has not worked.
Detroit (run by liberals for decades), bankrupt.
Chicago (run by liberals for decades), one of the highest murder rates in the Nation.
San Fran (run by liberals for decades), run into the ground
Los Angeles, Philly, St. Louis and on and on...high crime rates, high rates of food stamps, welfare,
unwed mothers, kids running around not knowing who their parents are, high jail prison populations,
high rates of meth/drug problems....

NewportBarGuy: cman: What to do?

Ban them, as they should.

They gave them a chance at governance, and the brotherhood blew it. Much like the Republican Democrat party, the brotherhood should be banned to protect the majority of sane people in the country.
 
2013-08-18 10:05:45 AM
Worked for Reagan.
 
2013-08-18 10:08:13 AM

p51d007: Here, I fixed this for you ;)

40+ years of democrat/liberal policies in some of the largest cites, has not worked.
Detroit (run by liberals for decades), bankrupt.
Chicago (run by liberals for decades), one of the highest murder rates in the Nation.
San Fran (run by liberals for decades), run into the ground
Los Angeles, Philly, St. Louis and on and on...high crime rates, high rates of food stamps, welfare,
unwed mothers, kids running around not knowing who their parents are, high jail prison populations,
high rates of meth/drug problems....

NewportBarGuy: cman: What to do?

Ban them, as they should.

They gave them a chance at governance, and the brotherhood blew it. Much like the Republican Democrat party, the brotherhood should be banned to protect the majority of sane people in the country.


*yawn*

Come on, if you're gonna wake up this early on a Sunday, at least bring your A game.
 
2013-08-18 10:09:34 AM
They wouldn't be elected a second time. So why make more martyrs out of them.
 
2013-08-18 10:10:48 AM

ginandbacon: It's also incredibly complicated and not one I'm sure we in this country can do much about.


There is absolutely nothing we can or should do about it except sit back and watch.

"Beware foreign entanglements." -Some old dude who chopped down a cherry tree.
 
2013-08-18 10:13:25 AM

NewportBarGuy: cman: What to do?

Ban them, as they should.

They gave them a chance at governance, and the brotherhood blew it. Much like the Republican party, the brotherhood should be banned to protect the majority of sane people in the country.



I was sort of with the MB as a faction with all the charity and whatnot.  Then I read about burning the Christian churches and orphanages and other buildings that had nothing to do with anything.  Sooo.. F em.  Burn.
 
2013-08-18 10:13:33 AM

p51d007: Here, I fixed this for you ;)

40+ years of democrat/liberal policies in some of the largest cites, has not worked.
Detroit (run by liberals for decades), bankrupt.
Chicago (run by liberals for decades), one of the highest murder rates in the Nation.
San Fran (run by liberals for decades), run into the ground
Los Angeles, Philly, St. Louis and on and on...high crime rates, high rates of food stamps, welfare,
unwed mothers, kids running around not knowing who their parents are, high jail prison populations,
high rates of meth/drug problems....

NewportBarGuy: cman: What to do?

Ban them, as they should.

They gave them a chance at governance, and the brotherhood blew it. Much like the Republican Democrat party, the brotherhood should be banned to protect the majority of sane people in the country.


A very one sided argument.
 
2013-08-18 10:13:53 AM

spawn73: They wouldn't be elected a second time. So why make more martyrs out of them.




Why not?
They'll use the protests as cover to burn government buildings and try to start a war. A tactic that might work in places that are not military dictatorships.
In Egypt they are asking to be imprisoned and shot.

/its not like the US has an interest in intervening in either case.
/So the military will protect whats left of the sectarian government.
 
2013-08-18 10:13:53 AM

ginandbacon: Most Muslims in Egypt have very little interest in the variety of Islam that I think (forgive me if I am wrong) you are talking about.


Wouldn't that be why they are rioting again? Because they do not like the things the MB is doing under the guise of instating sharia law?
 
2013-08-18 10:14:21 AM

spawn73: They wouldn't be elected a second time. So why make more martyrs out of them.


No, they wouldn't be freely elected a second time. They would have thrown the election just like every theocracy in the world.
 
2013-08-18 10:15:20 AM
They should give out free movie tickets.  They could watch Carrottop.
 
2013-08-18 10:15:43 AM
Like ACORN, it would just come back under a new name with the same money and people behind it.  All they can do is ban the people in it - i.e. strip them of their citizenship and ship them out of the country.  It's either that, or whatever their version of concentration camps would look like.  There's no other way because these people aren't ever going to stop.  Obama set this in motion when he declared that 'Mubarak must go', and you can't unscramble an egg.

If they don't do something massive (no matter how ugly), then Egypt will become another Pakistan; a country that is perpetually at war with itself.  Worse, if parts of the army begin deserting or switching sides, then it becomes Syria and begins to disintegrate altogether.
 
2013-08-18 10:18:06 AM

Neighborhood Watch: Like ACORN, it would just come back under a new name with the same money and people behind it.  All they can do is ban the people in it - i.e. strip them of their citizenship and ship them out of the country.  It's either that, or whatever their version of concentration camps would look like.  There's no other way because these people aren't ever going to stop.  Obama set this in motion when he declared that 'Mubarak must go', and you can't unscramble an egg.

If they don't do something massive (no matter how ugly), then Egypt will become another Pakistan; a country that is perpetually at war with itself.  Worse, if parts of the army begin deserting or switching sides, then it becomes Syria and begins to disintegrate altogether.


TL;DR: Look, I can name other countries with Muslims in them!
 
2013-08-18 10:19:19 AM

Neighborhood Watch: Like ACORN, it would just come back under a new name with the same money and people behind it.  All they can do is ban the people in it - i.e. strip them of their citizenship and ship them out of the country.  It's either that, or whatever their version of concentration camps would look like.  There's no other way because these people aren't ever going to stop.  Obama set this in motion when he declared that 'Mubarak must go', and you can't unscramble an egg.

If they don't do something massive (no matter how ugly), then Egypt will become another Pakistan; a country that is perpetually at war with itself.  Worse, if parts of the army begin deserting or switching sides, then it becomes Syria and begins to disintegrate altogether.


Yeah, deporting jihadists always works. It's impossible to terrorist stuff from another country what with the terrible access to computers and cell phones and supporters who are incapable of transferring money across international borders.
 
2013-08-18 10:20:09 AM
As long as I get my daily LiveLeak shooty shooty then I'm golden
 
2013-08-18 10:20:26 AM

leevis: Any social services provided by the brotherhood would have been done solely to build up support while they expanded their power.


The Brotherhood actually started as a social service organization in the 30s well before they ever began any political activities. Nasser actually provided them with money and personnel despite having banned them. No government has any chance of succeeding without their at least nominal support. It would be like the US trying to ban Christian charities.

NewportBarGuy: ginandbacon: It's also incredibly complicated and not one I'm sure we in this country can do much about.

There is absolutely nothing we can or should do about it except sit back and watch.

"Beware foreign entanglements." -Some old dude who chopped down a cherry tree.


*sigh*

Yup.
 
2013-08-18 10:24:32 AM

DerAppie: ginandbacon: Most Muslims in Egypt have very little interest in the variety of Islam that I think (forgive me if I am wrong) you are talking about.

Wouldn't that be why they are rioting again? Because they do not like the things the MB is doing under the guise of instating sharia law?


Again, I'm not sure what is meant by Sharia law. That term is about as useful as talking about Jewish law. Most Egyptians were very unhappy with Morsi but the military is seen as far more of a threat to any hope of a democratic future, which is quite telling.
 
2013-08-18 10:25:52 AM
Unfortunately theocrats don't take 'no' for an answer.
 
2013-08-18 10:27:11 AM
The MB had an excellent chance to do the tiniest amount of mainstreaming and governing from the middle. They would have been a dominant power for a long time.

They instant tried to do a full takeover of the country.

I don't know which media to trust - some tell me everyone supports the MB more because of this, others say the opposite.

I hope it is the opposite. The MB cannot biatch that democracy is being usurped by the military when they had already thrown it out.
 
2013-08-18 10:28:35 AM
leevis:

Any social services provided by the brotherhood would have been done solely to build up support while they expanded their power.

...which differs from any other political group in history, how exactly?
 
2013-08-18 10:30:40 AM

ginandbacon: DerAppie: ginandbacon: Most Muslims in Egypt have very little interest in the variety of Islam that I think (forgive me if I am wrong) you are talking about.

Wouldn't that be why they are rioting again? Because they do not like the things the MB is doing under the guise of instating sharia law?

Again, I'm not sure what is meant by Sharia law. That term is about as useful as talking about Jewish law. Most Egyptians were very unhappy with Morsi but the military is seen as far more of a threat to any hope of a democratic future, which is quite telling.


You seem very confidant that you accurately have your finger on the pulse of egyptian political opinion trends. Why?

A huge number of people are wrong about these things in their own country, how can you be so sure you have the right of it in one across the globe?
 
2013-08-18 10:31:01 AM
As long as Kane is given access to the tiberium fields he cares not for your banning of the Brotherhood.
 
2013-08-18 10:31:15 AM
 
2013-08-18 10:31:42 AM

generallyso: Unfortunately theocrats don't take 'no' for an answer.


...I hear the military has trouble taking 'no' for an answer, either.

/The real bad guys are the ones who say there are good guys and bad guys in this situation.
 
2013-08-18 10:31:46 AM
A constitution that expressly states the the country may be near-solid Moslem, but the government and its institutions and offices are strictly secular, and that all faiths are equally respected and protected would be a nice step.

Yeah, that'll fix it.
 
2013-08-18 10:36:59 AM
Oh, you mean just like they were banned from politics for the last 30 years by Mubarak?

/Maybe he was on to something
//Progress
 
2013-08-18 10:38:19 AM
fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net
 
2013-08-18 10:41:20 AM

way south: spawn73: They wouldn't be elected a second time. So why make more martyrs out of them.

Why not?
They'll use the protests as cover to burn government buildings and try to start a war. A tactic that might work in places that are not military dictatorships.
In Egypt they are asking to be imprisoned and shot.



or, according to some experts, the egyptian military has been goading the islamists into an open conflict which would be blamed on the muslim brotherhood. its nice that you've been suckered into egyptian military propaganda,

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/world/middleeast/attacks-on-protes te rs-in-cairo-were-calculated-to-provoke-some-say.html?_r=0
 
2013-08-18 10:41:26 AM

TappingTheVein: All current surveys still show that the overwhelming majority of Egyptians still support Sharia law, or at least say they do. This is where the problem lies: the laws of a society are the mirror of its morality. Egyptians cannot make believe that they can have both Sharia and freedom.

TL;DR version: Egypt is farked and it's back to square one. They have been heading down that road to 'failed state' territory way before the current revolution.


Sharia law is a mix of religion and custom. While I view relugious laws as bad, they have no bearing on whether an elected party chooses to go full dictator.

There is no one definition of sharia, and frankly if we apply the term correctly in America most of us follow it too. If you allow for laws against nudity or incest, for example, then you already have morality laws based on some very non-objective stuff.
 
2013-08-18 10:44:17 AM

Smackledorfer: ginandbacon: DerAppie: ginandbacon: Most Muslims in Egypt have very little interest in the variety of Islam that I think (forgive me if I am wrong) you are talking about.

Wouldn't that be why they are rioting again? Because they do not like the things the MB is doing under the guise of instating sharia law?

Again, I'm not sure what is meant by Sharia law. That term is about as useful as talking about Jewish law. Most Egyptians were very unhappy with Morsi but the military is seen as far more of a threat to any hope of a democratic future, which is quite telling.

You seem very confidant that you accurately have your finger on the pulse of egyptian political opinion trends. Why?

A huge number of people are wrong about these things in their own country, how can you be so sure you have the right of it in one across the globe?


I am not by any means pretending to be an expert on the situation. I have been following politics in Egypt for 30 years now however, and I see people here saying things here that are just factually untrue. I am, to the best of my abilities and knowledge, trying to have a conversation about what I consider to be one of the most important foreign affairs issues we face as a nation in my lifetime. I would hope every American would try to wrap their heads around this situation without resorting to shorthand and hyperbole.

If you are asking what my sources are, I grew up with Egyptians and Americans who have long worked in the area as journalists, members of our State Department, and staff of NGOs in the region. I listen to them and ask questions. That is all I can offer.
 
2013-08-18 10:45:11 AM
I say quit paying attention to it, it will take care of itself.

If the people don't like it they will leave.
 
2013-08-18 10:45:52 AM

AJatHP:


Um, I'm not sure what this post is trying to say. A little clarification, please?
 
2013-08-18 10:46:40 AM

p51d007: Here, I fixed this for you ;)

40+ years of democrat/liberal policies in some of the largest cites, has not worked.
Detroit (run by liberals for decades), bankrupt.
Chicago (run by liberals for decades), one of the highest murder rates in the Nation.
San Fran (run by liberals for decades), run into the ground
Los Angeles, Philly, St. Louis and on and on...high crime rates, high rates of food stamps, welfare,
unwed mothers, kids running around not knowing who their parents are, high jail prison populations,
high rates of meth/drug problems....


And Red states take the most in Federal outlays while paying the least in taxes. Your point is?
 
2013-08-18 10:47:10 AM
A truly Democratic form of government.  I bet they'll ask why people are still in the Muslim Brotherhood once they ban it, too.
 
2013-08-18 10:47:36 AM

TappingTheVein: All current surveys still show that the overwhelming majority of Egyptians Americans still support Sharia biblical law, or at least say they do. This is where the problem lies: the laws of a society are the mirror of its morality. Egyptians Americans cannot make believe that they can have both Sharia Biblical law and freedom.


See, I can make generalized, sweeping condemnations of a populace, too!
 
2013-08-18 10:50:03 AM

Hot Lunch: AJatHP:

Um, I'm not sure what this post is trying to say. A little clarification, please?


I think it's five different pics of the same dead guy, so the implication is they're over-counting people killed by the military?

/just guessing
 
2013-08-18 10:51:43 AM

ginandbacon: NewportBarGuy: ginandbacon: It's also incredibly complicated and not one I'm sure we in this country can do much about.

There is absolutely nothing we can or should do about it except sit back and watch.

"Beware foreign entanglements." -Some old dude who chopped down a cherry tree.

*sigh*

Yup.


Yes and that sentiment was valid when the entirety of the United States was a handful of former colonies and we had more than enough to worry about across our own borders and were too weak to insinuate ourselves into Europes various wars of the time. Now, however, with the world being as small as it is, we cannot help but have a vested interest in the stability of other countries; especially those in the regions of the world where the world gets the vast majority of it's energy from.

Americas global reach started, really, with the Spanish-American war, the people of the Philippine's gave us our first Vietnam and the measures we had to take to quell that resistance gave many Americans pause about expanding our sphere of influence, but didn't stop it as The Banana wars prove. Like it or not, we've had a world presence since a generation after the Civil War and there's no turning the train around. (Heck, the Hawks of the time rightly believed that the Spanish-American war would help heal the wounds of the nation; As the Army marched south in Union uniforms led by a former Confederate General, the southerners played Dixie)

I blame Cuba :)
 
2013-08-18 10:55:28 AM

ginandbacon: Smackledorfer: ginandbacon: DerAppie: ginandbacon: Most Muslims in Egypt have very little interest in the variety of Islam that I think (forgive me if I am wrong) you are talking about.

Wouldn't that be why they are rioting again? Because they do not like the things the MB is doing under the guise of instating sharia law?

Again, I'm not sure what is meant by Sharia law. That term is about as useful as talking about Jewish law. Most Egyptians were very unhappy with Morsi but the military is seen as far more of a threat to any hope of a democratic future, which is quite telling.

You seem very confidant that you accurately have your finger on the pulse of egyptian political opinion trends. Why?

A huge number of people are wrong about these things in their own country, how can you be so sure you have the right of it in one across the globe?

I am not by any means pretending to be an expert on the situation. I have been following politics in Egypt for 30 years now however, and I see people here saying things here that are just factually untrue. I am, to the best of my abilities and knowledge, trying to have a conversation about what I consider to be one of the most important foreign affairs issues we face as a nation in my lifetime. I would hope every American would try to wrap their heads around this situation without resorting to shorthand and hyperbole.

If you are asking what my sources are, I grew up with Egyptians and Americans who have long worked in the area as journalists, members of our State Department, and staff of NGOs in the region. I listen to them and ask questions. That is all I can offer.


I'm going to disagree.  If we still had a merchant marine, I'd worry about the Suez Canal...but we don't.

If Egypt's shiat spills over into Israel, I'd worry a teensy bit...but not lose any sleep.  I don't see Israel as vital to the US either, frankly.

I just don't see us having any vital interest there.   And I don't see our involvement helping...only making things worse for us AND them.

Hopefully the pyramids will survive...those are kind of cool.
 
2013-08-18 10:55:37 AM

ginandbacon: Smackledorfer: ginandbacon: DerAppie: ginandbacon: Most Muslims in Egypt have very little interest in the variety of Islam that I think (forgive me if I am wrong) you are talking about.

Wouldn't that be why they are rioting again? Because they do not like the things the MB is doing under the guise of instating sharia law?

Again, I'm not sure what is meant by Sharia law. That term is about as useful as talking about Jewish law. Most Egyptians were very unhappy with Morsi but the military is seen as far more of a threat to any hope of a democratic future, which is quite telling.

You seem very confidant that you accurately have your finger on the pulse of egyptian political opinion trends. Why?

A huge number of people are wrong about these things in their own country, how can you be so sure you have the right of it in one across the globe?

I am not by any means pretending to be an expert on the situation. I have been following politics in Egypt for 30 years now however, and I see people here saying things here that are just factually untrue. I am, to the best of my abilities and knowledge, trying to have a conversation about what I consider to be one of the most important foreign affairs issues we face as a nation in my lifetime. I would hope every American would try to wrap their heads around this situation without resorting to shorthand and hyperbole.

If you are asking what my sources are, I grew up with Egyptians and Americans who have long worked in the area as journalists, members of our State Department, and staff of NGOs in the region. I listen to them and ask questions. That is all I can offer.


So you would then say that all the news organizations who aren't pushing the narrative that most egyptians support morsi over the military to be doing what, exactly?

Is NPR now a propaganda arm?

I'm just curious.
 
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