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(ESPN)   MLB, pending owner approval, will institute a replay challenge system beginning in 2014 - 2 challenges in the first 6 innings, 1 challenge from the 7th inning on, all challenges to be reviewed by an umpire at MLB offices   (espn.go.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Major League Baseball, John Schuerholz, umpire, Joe Torre, systems  
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652 clicks; posted to Sports » on 15 Aug 2013 at 2:24 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-15 03:52:18 PM  

wxboy: chimp_ninja: That's even dumber. Why do I get one challenge for six innings, then two in three innings? Last I checked, the game of baseball adds up the runs from all the innings equally. This isn't Jeopardy.

And why do teams put so much emphasis on having a dedicated closer in the bullpen?


I still like the idea of an 'opener'.  You know the other team is going to put their three best hitters in the top 4 slots.  Have a (random, not necessarily 'best') reliever pitch the 1st inning, since even mediocre relievers tend to outperform starters for 1 inning.  Heck, you can pick by platoon advantage.

Makes more sense than saving your best pitcher to face the 6-7-8 guys with a 3-run lead in the 9th.  And CGs are so rare now that you're not really 'wasting' a bullpen inning.
 
2013-08-15 03:52:33 PM  

IAmRight: Marcus Aurelius: If you're going to let one fielder get out of batting, why not all of them?

I think it's pretty damn clear that a pitcher is not simply a fielder. Pitching is more work than all the other positions combined.


I agree, but it's just personal preference to me to see all 9 guys bat.
 
2013-08-15 03:54:41 PM  
As someone that loves insane manager / umpire confrontations, I completely disapprove of a replay / challenge system.
 
2013-08-15 03:55:31 PM  

Renob: Or...just have a guy (an extra ump) watch the television broadcast, and if the play is deemed close enough (by him), then get a couple more angles, slo-mo, whatever, and then he can make the call and send it down to the field.  If the evidence isn't conclusive within a couple quick watches, play stands as it was called.

I don't understand the need for challenges or whatever when we already have TV broadcasts that can fire up a replay within seconds, without having the fat umps have to trot their fat butts off the field for four or five fat minutes to make decisions that viewers can basically make within 15 seconds of the completion of the fat play.


Umps sound fat.
 
2013-08-15 03:55:49 PM  

idesofmarch: Yes, I could see going three games - the challenge would be making room for it in the schedule, which has been debated ad nauseum, with the answer being that there is no good way to do that and still please everybody.


(Day off after the end of the regular season)
Day 1: Day game at the worse team's stadium.
Day 2: Night game at the better team's stadium.
Day 3: Day game at the better team's stadium
Day 4: Night game at the best divisional leader's stadium (ALDS).

Sweep the series, earn a day off.

You could even conceivably combine game 2 & 3 into a doubleheader...but then you lose the "day off" reward.

For the divisional leaders, they get a break exactly the same length as the ASG, so it won't be so long that they get all messed up (that is....unless the ASG break has gotten too long....)
 
2013-08-15 03:56:47 PM  

IAmRight: Marcus Aurelius: If you're going to let one fielder get out of batting, why not all of them?

I think it's pretty damn clear that a pitcher is not simply a fielder. Pitching is more work than all the other positions combined.


So what?  They batted anyway, up until the AL decided that the DH would fill the park with more morans.  It does not make the game better - quite the opposite.
 
2013-08-15 03:57:04 PM  

chimp_ninja: And there appears to be no reason not to use your two challenges.

I wonder if Jim Leyland or someone similarly feisty will start burning two challenges in any game where the umpire pisses him off. Like 9th-inning, 2 outs, single to left-center, Jim Leyland asks for a ruling to check if the ball was a home run. Then re-appeal the same play afterwards, to get a ruling if it was a foul ball.


Use them to get a reliever warmed up. Or to ice the opposing pitcher.
 
2013-08-15 03:57:56 PM  

wxboy: chimp_ninja: That's even dumber. Why do I get one challenge for six innings, then two in three innings? Last I checked, the game of baseball adds up the runs from all the innings equally. This isn't Jeopardy.

And why do teams put so much emphasis on having a dedicated closer in the bullpen?


Because they are easily susceptible to superstition.
 
2013-08-15 03:58:23 PM  

babysealclubber: I agree, but it's just personal preference to me to see all 9 guys bat.


It's personal preference for me to not see .220 hitters get intentionally walked to face someone even more pathetic.

/really would like to see a game where everyone has to play each position for an inning and hit
 
2013-08-15 03:59:49 PM  

chimp_ninja: DeWayne Mann: chimp_ninja: That's even dumber. Why do I get one challenge for six innings, then two in three innings? Last I checked, the game of baseball adds up the runs from all the innings equally. This isn't Jeopardy.

So that in 20 years, we can say "No one was a better clutch challenger than Mike Matheny."

And there appears to be no reason not to use your two challenges.

I wonder if Jim Leyland or someone similarly feisty will start burning two challenges in any game where the umpire pisses him off.  Like 9th-inning, 2 outs, single to left-center, Jim Leyland asks for a ruling to check if the ball was a home run.  Then re-appeal the same play afterwards, to get a ruling if it was a foul ball.


As amusing as that would be, I would hope that abuse of the challenge system becomes an unwritten rule, like not bunting to break up a perfect game, or stealing bases while during a blowout.
 
2013-08-15 04:00:23 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Use them to get a reliever warmed up. Or to ice the opposing pitcher.


My thoughts too.  Those challenges would be used even if there was really nothing to dispute.
 
2013-08-15 04:00:25 PM  

azmoviez: As someone that loves insane manager / umpire confrontations, I completely disapprove of a replay / challenge system.



there hasn't been a good one in awhile.....i kinda recall Girardi or maybe Francona having to be restrained by his players a few years back but nothing comes to mind in like, the last 5 or so years.

kinda recall Gardy going nuts but that was like, a  decade ago.
 
2013-08-15 04:03:07 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: So what?  They batted anyway, up until the AL decided that the DH would fill the park with more morans.  It does not make the game better - quite the opposite.


So what? We used to sh*t in outhouses too until people came up with indoor plumbing. Can you still get by sh*tting in an outhouse? Sure, just like you can get by watching once-a-week players doing everyday players' jobs. The rest of us will try to progress in life and use things that perform better every day.
 
2013-08-15 04:07:29 PM  
Do the managers get a red hankie to throw onto the field?
 
2013-08-15 04:08:15 PM  
FTA: Managers will be allowed one challenge over the first six innings of a game and two from the seventh inning until the completion of the game. Calls that are challenged will be reviewed by a crew in MLB headquarters in New York City, which will make a final ruling.

Ok, someone is wrong, and seeing as how this is FARK, I'm looking at subby.
 
2013-08-15 04:10:32 PM  

Earguy: Do the managers get a red hankie to throw onto the field?



they'll throw A-Rod's purse
 
2013-08-15 04:11:30 PM  
Of all the major professional sports, Baseball is the one that needs the least amount of human officiating.  In basketball, hockey and football, refs are essential for being in charge of the flow of the game and essentially running the game, as well as calling penalties and signalling scoring and such.

Baseball on the other hand could be done with two officials. One on the field, one in a replay booth. Balls and strikes could be done by a completely automated system.  The official on the field keeps the game flowing, makes calls where applicable, and all things such as foul balls, plays at the plate, home runs, checked swings and stuff like that could all be done by the official in the booth with access to all the cameras at once.

The errors made by the officials would be tiny compared to the current system and there would be no slowdown in the game.
 
2013-08-15 04:12:11 PM  

IAmRight: Marcus Aurelius: If you're going to let one fielder get out of batting, why not all of them?

I think it's pretty damn clear that a pitcher is not simply a fielder. Pitching is more work than all the other positions combined.


cdn.fansided.com
 
2013-08-15 04:13:17 PM  
I'm not gonna get sucked into another DH thread, but again, for the record:

The worst hitting position player in history is almost certainly Bill Bergen. Bergen had a career wRC+ of 22, where 100 is average and higher is better.

As a group, pitchers haven't had a better wRC+ than 22 in a season since 1951, when they had a wRC+ of 24.

They haven't had a wRC+ greater than ZERO since 1982.  That doesn't really mean anything, it's just sort of insane.
 
2013-08-15 04:16:39 PM  

IAmRight: Marcus Aurelius: So what?  They batted anyway, up until the AL decided that the DH would fill the park with more morans.  It does not make the game better - quite the opposite.

So what? We used to sh*t in outhouses too until people came up with indoor plumbing. Can you still get by sh*tting in an outhouse? Sure, just like you can get by watching once-a-week players doing everyday players' jobs. The rest of us will try to progress in life and use things that perform better every day.


In that case, why not replace the batters with machines?  They could hit the ball much better than a human.  That would be the kind of progress you could get behind.
 
2013-08-15 04:18:36 PM  

DeWayne Mann: I'm not gonna get sucked into another DH thread, but again, for the record:

The worst hitting position player in history is almost certainly Bill Bergen. Bergen had a career wRC+ of 22, where 100 is average and higher is better.

As a group, pitchers haven't had a better wRC+ than 22 in a season since 1951, when they had a wRC+ of 24.

They haven't had a wRC+ greater than ZERO since 1982.  That doesn't really mean anything, it's just sort of insane.


To me, it just seems logical to have the DH in the NL now. The lines have been blurred greatly over the years between the leagues. They used to have a NL and an AL president. The leagues had separate umpires. There was no interleague play except for the All-Star Game and World Series. The DH has been around since 1973. That's 40 years and it is clearly here to stay and MLB wouldn't be able to eliminate it if they wanted to, because of the MLBPA. Just add it to the NL already. While my personal tastes would rather see no DH at all, I understand the logic at this point.
 
2013-08-15 04:19:08 PM  

rickythepenguin: azmoviez: As someone that loves insane manager / umpire confrontations, I completely disapprove of a replay / challenge system.


there hasn't been a good one in awhile.....i kinda recall Girardi or maybe Francona having to be restrained by his players a few years back but nothing comes to mind in like, the last 5 or so years.

kinda recall Gardy going nuts but that was like, a  decade ago.


I remember Brenly throwing a ball into the stands forever and a day ago. They don't have as many freakouts as they used to and I think it's a detriment to the game. Maybe because guys like Clint Hurdle and Buck Showalter have winning clubs?  Who knows?

Of course I just found this, which is highly entertaining.
 
2013-08-15 04:19:53 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: IAmRight: Marcus Aurelius: So what?  They batted anyway, up until the AL decided that the DH would fill the park with more morans.  It does not make the game better - quite the opposite.

So what? We used to sh*t in outhouses too until people came up with indoor plumbing. Can you still get by sh*tting in an outhouse? Sure, just like you can get by watching once-a-week players doing everyday players' jobs. The rest of us will try to progress in life and use things that perform better every day.

In that case, why not replace the batters with machines?  They could hit the ball much better than a human.  That would be the kind of progress you could get behind.


videogamecritic.com

It's been done.
 
2013-08-15 04:20:40 PM  
So basically they've adopted the NFL replay system without having to install a TV/DVR system in every stadium.

If they can do the reviews as quickly as they do in the NHL it sounds good to me.
 
2013-08-15 04:21:10 PM  

The Downfall: To me, it just seems logical to have the DH in the NL now.


It almost certainly will happen. Year long interleague pretty well decided that.
 
2013-08-15 04:23:02 PM  

Guelph35: So basically they've adopted the NFL replay system without having to install a TV/DVR system in every stadium.

If they can do the reviews as quickly as they do in the NHL it sounds good to me.


Have you seen their review process?  They all have to file into the basement and hang out down there for some reason.
 
2013-08-15 04:24:01 PM  

azmoviez: rickythepenguin: azmoviez: As someone that loves insane manager / umpire confrontations, I completely disapprove of a replay / challenge system.


there hasn't been a good one in awhile.....i kinda recall Girardi or maybe Francona having to be restrained by his players a few years back but nothing comes to mind in like, the last 5 or so years.

kinda recall Gardy going nuts but that was like, a  decade ago.

I remember Brenly throwing a ball into the stands forever and a day ago. They don't have as many freakouts as they used to and I think it's a detriment to the game. Maybe because guys like Clint Hurdle and Buck Showalter have winning clubs?  Who knows?

Of course I just found this, which is highly entertaining.


Weaver > *
 
2013-08-15 04:25:47 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: Good

Now drop the BS change to affording the league that wins the All Star game home field advantage in the World Series. Next put the DH in the National League as well get rid of the DH altogether and let AL pitchers play the game the way it is meant to be played.


FTFY.
 
2013-08-15 04:29:40 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Have you seen their review process?  They all have to file into the basement and hang out down there for some reason


Usually by the time the replay was shown twice on TV they had their decision.

It isn't as good theater as watching the NFL official go under the hood and watch  pr0n the play but it seemed much faster.
 
2013-08-15 04:30:31 PM  
i.imgur.com


Finally. As long as Joe West and Bob Davidson aren't in the replay booth we'll be OK.
 
2013-08-15 04:37:22 PM  
I love that this takes a dumb element from football replay (replay on challenges only, so you give the coach something else to fark up) and a dumb element from hockey replay (that you have to get on the phone with the league office and have someone there review it) and combines them into one dumb system.
 
2013-08-15 04:41:03 PM  
Years ago when I was in high school, I was house/dog sitting for a neighbor, and I was w/o a car at the time plus the weather was absolutely atrocious that day, so I was essentially stuck indoors. The only thing on television remotely watchable was a single baseball game involving Steve Trachsel. I think it took 4 hours just to get to the 8th inning.

So, all the instant replay in the world including a new 7th inning stretch ritual which includes a public reading of the Magna Carta in several different languages won't make the game any slower that that guy.
 
2013-08-15 04:41:58 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: why not replace the batters with machines? They could hit the ball much better than a human. That would be the kind of progress you could get behind.


Baseball ROBOT WARS.  Nine foot tall men of steel and hydrolics hitting the ball 500 feet.  There'd better be brawls.  I'm there.
 
2013-08-15 04:49:45 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: Good

Now drop the BS change to affording the league that wins the All Star game home field advantage in the World Series. Next put the DH in the National League as well


Go away.
 
2013-08-15 04:50:26 PM  
Each and every play should also be reviewed thoroughly by a staff of lawyers for each team. Then negotiations can ensue and, if all parties agree, a settlement can be reached and play can resume. If an agreement is not possible, a specially selected, neutral arbitrator can then go back over all the evidence and arguments and make a ruling. If either side disagrees, the play can then be brought to an appellate level, and eventually on to the commissioner who is the supreme authority. Play is then swiftly resumed.
 
2013-08-15 04:50:53 PM  

Earguy: Baseball ROBOT WARS. Nine foot tall men of steel and hydrolics hitting the ball 500 feet. There'd better be brawls. I'm there.


Watching Wireless Joe Jackson go up against Pitch-O-Mat 5000 is always an instant classic.
 
2013-08-15 04:52:17 PM  

IAmRight: How about you get three challenges/free baserunners/free outs (maximum 1 per inning on baserunners)?

If you don't use your challenges, you get to put a guy on base to start the inning. Or, on defense, you can use it as a free out to start the inning. Neither affects player stats, but the batter would have to either go to first base or be out.

/all you "what about the strategy?" whiners should love this


Because literally every manager would use it as free outs.  That is wildly overpowered.
 
2013-08-15 04:53:17 PM  
Has anyone mentioned how much they will miss the cursing, hat throwing, and dirt kicking manager?  Because I will.
 
2013-08-15 04:57:49 PM  

DeWayne Mann: They haven't had a wRC+ greater than ZERO since 1982. That doesn't really mean anything, it's just sort of insane.


The thing is that nowadays the DH is institutionalized from High School on.  So the pitchers don't get any BP in HS, college or at any of the minor league levels. Most don't even know how to bunt.  There have been a few decent hitting pitchers but they mostly faded out in the late 80s-early 90s.  Even though I would prefer no DH's in either league, I know it wouldn't be anything more than a pipe dream at this point.  So I would accept DHs in both leagues as a consolation.

/If the DH existed in the 1910s, Babe Ruth might have been nothing more than an above average pitcher.
 
2013-08-15 05:02:25 PM  
Is there a punishment for getting a challange incorrect?  I have no major problem with the limit number of challanges since you don't lose the challange if you are correct.  They do need to implement a punishment system to make sure people only challange what is essential and extremely close and not just every other play that looks kinda close.  Since BB has no timeouts it should be a walk/out punishment.  If the Offensive calls a challange at a base and is incorrect then an extra out is added along with the player who was out.  If the defense calls a challange and is incorrect then the batter auto advances to the next base (obviously moving along any players in his way just like a 4 ball walk, only instead starting at the base that the challange was at instead of at home plate).  System isn't perfect but just my 2 cents.
 
2013-08-15 05:12:40 PM  

Gunny Highway: Has anyone mentioned how much they will miss the cursing, hat throwing, and dirt kicking manager?  Because I will.


I'm all for instant replay, but yeah... I'm with you here.
 
2013-08-15 05:16:30 PM  
I'm confused as to why you guys don't like this. The time allotted for a review is shorter than the time managers spend arguing, you retain the right to challenge if you're right, you can't just use it if you don't like it, sending it to New York means angel Hernandez can't refuse to change his call. Wtf is wrong?
 
2013-08-15 05:17:53 PM  
Also 89% of incorrect calls can be fixed by the new system. Pretty farking good if you ask me.
 
2013-08-15 05:18:06 PM  

thecpt: I'm confused as to why you guys don't like this. The time allotted for a review is shorter than the time managers spend arguing, you retain the right to challenge if you're right, you can't just use it if you don't like it, sending it to New York means angel Hernandez can't refuse to change his call. Wtf is wrong?


Why are we depending on managers to make sure the calls get right?
 
2013-08-15 05:21:57 PM  

thecpt: Also 89% of incorrect calls can be fixed by the new system. Pretty farking good if you ask me.


Unless two of those calls happen in the first 6 innings and go against the same team. In which case, 50%.
 
2013-08-15 05:22:39 PM  

thecpt: I'm confused as to why you guys don't like this. The time allotted for a review is shorter than the time managers spend arguing, you retain the right to challenge if you're right, you can't just use it if you don't like it, sending it to New York means angel Hernandez can't refuse to change his call. Wtf is wrong?


It is a half assed effort that will likely lock MLB is what many of us view is the wrong course.

We don't want a challenge system. We want a 5th umpire system (be that umpire be in New York or the stadium) who can review every play in real time.
 
2013-08-15 05:25:04 PM  
Why not just one ump then?
 
2013-08-15 05:27:18 PM  
Baseball needs replay.

Watching pitchers bat is the ultimate in boredom.  You can pretend like there is all kinds of strategery involved if you want I guess.
 
2013-08-15 05:28:40 PM  

DeWayne Mann: thecpt: I'm confused as to why you guys don't like this. The time allotted for a review is shorter than the time managers spend arguing, you retain the right to challenge if you're right, you can't just use it if you don't like it, sending it to New York means angel Hernandez can't refuse to change his call. Wtf is wrong?

Why are we depending on managers to make sure the calls get right?


We're depending on them to challenge plays properly. I suspect baseball fans who are also bear fans before this year won't like this system. I'm okay with it.
 
2013-08-15 05:32:36 PM  

thecpt: DeWayne Mann: thecpt: I'm confused as to why you guys don't like this. The time allotted for a review is shorter than the time managers spend arguing, you retain the right to challenge if you're right, you can't just use it if you don't like it, sending it to New York means angel Hernandez can't refuse to change his call. Wtf is wrong?

Why are we depending on managers to make sure the calls get right?

We're depending on them to challenge plays properly. I suspect baseball fans who are also bear fans before this year won't like this system. I'm okay with it.


At some point, the following question will be asked in a press conference of a manager:

"Why didn't you challenge that call in the first? It ended up being the difference in the game."

And from that point on, the umps are 100% off the hook for bad calls.
 
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