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(ESPN)   MLB, pending owner approval, will institute a replay challenge system beginning in 2014 - 2 challenges in the first 6 innings, 1 challenge from the 7th inning on, all challenges to be reviewed by an umpire at MLB offices   (espn.go.com) divider line 212
    More: Interesting, Major League Baseball, John Schuerholz, umpire, Joe Torre, systems  
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643 clicks; posted to Sports » on 15 Aug 2013 at 2:24 PM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-15 03:04:21 PM

IAmRight: And by pitchers hit, you mean they have DHs.


The NCAA has the DH rule, but a lot of pitchers bat. No American League pitchers bat (barring inter-league play). Little League does not have the DH rule. Your local kids league may, though.
 
2013-08-15 03:05:38 PM

SnatchMcGillicudy: 1)  subby has it backwards:  1 challenge total during the first 6 innings, 2 total from the seventh on (I don't know if they've already discussed extra innings)

2) I'm sure the final format of this isn't set in stone.  Yes, it would be ideal if there were a dedicated fifth ump, unseen in a control booth to instantaneously view a replay and correct if needed, but it's a lot better than what Angel Hernandez and Joe West are doing right now.

If they're going to go down the challenge route here, wouldn't they need some sort of penalty for an unsuccessful challenge?  They can't really lose a timeout, and gaining an out (or losing one, depending) would be too valuable.  Sounds like they have some issues to iron out on this before they put it in stone.


If this is a step forward towards a comprehensive system in the future, I am all for it. The limited addition of replay for home runs was a good step forward and proof of concept. If this is the same, then perfect, but I doubt it will work that way.

This basic system will become the only option for at least a decade. If it is deemed a failure, it will be removed outright and those afraid of change will just say "see we told you replay was a dumb idea" with evidence behind them. But if it works then baseball's massive inertia kicks in again and between the people objecting to any change and the people wanting to remove replay there will not be any expansion for at least a decade.
 
2013-08-15 03:06:07 PM

Gecko Gingrich: Peter von Nostrand: Then position players need to pitch as well. I'm sorry, what was that, you said having position players pitch is a stupid idea? Exactly

Also, I'm not sure what your point is. For the first 104, if you played the field you hit. Since '73, half the league still does. College pitchers hit. Little League pitchers hit.


NCAA baseball has a dh. But since at that level, a lot of pitchers can rake, a player can do both. So the starter can pitch and hit but when you go to the bullpen the reliever doesn't have to bat.
 
2013-08-15 03:07:29 PM

dywed88: This basic system will become the only option for at least a decade. If it is deemed a failure, it will be removed outright and those afraid of change will just say "see we told you replay was a dumb idea" with evidence behind them. But if it works then baseball's massive inertia kicks in again and between the people objecting to any change and the people wanting to remove replay there will not be any expansion for at least a decade.


I don't generally do this, but

THIS
 
2013-08-15 03:09:56 PM

IAmRight: DeWayne Mann: Pretty much everything.

Not even mentioning the silliness of having it reviewed in the league offices instead of on-site.

I hope there's a huge storm in NYC when it's nice somewhere else and they f*ck up a call and there's a challenge and "well, sorry, we can't reach them - power and phones are out."


The NHL has handled this for a decade during winter in Toronto.

Great derp though.


As for the proposed system, I would have the replay be called for by the central office instead of a challenge system.
 
2013-08-15 03:10:01 PM

dywed88: This basic system will become the only option for at least a decade. If it is deemed a failure, it will be removed outright and those afraid of change will just say "see we told you replay was a dumb idea" with evidence behind them. But if it works then baseball's massive inertia kicks in again and between the people objecting to any change and the people wanting to remove replay there will not be any expansion for at least a decade.


Bingo.

The system is so flawed that either a) it's set up for failure, or b) fixing it will be deemed "too hard", and therefore it'll never be touched again.

DeWayne Mann: Frankly, I'd rather have 1 more season of no replay at all followed by a 5th umpire system


At least Selig might be out of the way by then.
 
2013-08-15 03:11:02 PM

Joe_diGriz: At least Selig might be out of the way by then.


Hahaha, you think Selig is going away at some point.
 
2013-08-15 03:13:02 PM

DeWayne Mann: Hahaha, you think Selig is going away at some point.


Hey, I did say *might be*.
 
2013-08-15 03:13:04 PM

babysealclubber: Peter von Nostrand: Gecko Gingrich: Peter von Nostrand: Next putdrop the DH in the Nationalfrom the American League as well

Then position players need to pitch as well. I'm sorry, what was that, you said having position players pitch is a stupid idea? Exactly

That argument makes no sense.


Well, if you say so

Gecko Gingrich: Peter von Nostrand: Then position players need to pitch as well. I'm sorry, what was that, you said having position players pitch is a stupid idea? Exactly

Also, I'm not sure what your point is. For the first 104, if you played the field you hit. Since '73, half the league still does. College pitchers hit. Little League pitchers hit.


They used to also ride trains when traveling but then times change and now teams fly. Uh no on college, there is a DH in college. Little League play with a 45' mound and 60' bases, why not go to that as well?
 
2013-08-15 03:13:17 PM

Peter von Nostrand: put the DH in the National League as well


You mean remove the DH from the American League, surely.
 
2013-08-15 03:14:05 PM

usttsdw: just remove the right for a batter to call time after a pitcher is set

I wish they would put this rule in place now. Should also put the pitcher on the clock so they don't make the batter stand there all day as well.


I've long asked for a rule where once the batter steps in the box, he can't step out.  Step out = strike.  On one hand, you need to give the pitcher a few seconds to recover before the next pitch, but the, "step out, 4-5 practice swings, deep breath, check the signs at 3d, practice swing, adjust wrist wraps, call time, dig in...."  stupid.


downstairs: It will eliminate arguments from the managers- which can take 5+ minutes. A replay won't take that long. And I assume once the replay is handed down, the manager who requested it can't argue it. (For one, the ump who reviewed the play is in a studio in NYC.)


yeah, i don't think it will hugely delay things.  it will but not as much.  and once it happens, it is done.
 
2013-08-15 03:14:53 PM

Peter von Nostrand: Little League play with a 45' mound and 60' bases


I know what you meant, I'm just imagining 12-year-olds dropping baseballs off a scissor lift parked in the middle of the infield.
 
2013-08-15 03:15:39 PM

Gunderson: Peter von Nostrand: Next put the DH in the National League as well

Why stop there?  Why not just have a DH for every position player like football as well?  Have 9 fielders & 9 DHs.  No one wants to see another Ozzie Smith bat .262 anymore.


Wat?
 
2013-08-15 03:16:10 PM

PowerSlacker: The NHL has handled this for a decade during winter in Toronto.

Great derp though.


Wow, 10 whole years! BTW, it was a dumbass system when it was created:

"We always relied on the people in the arena to take care of this and advise us on this," Murphy said, "so if there's a wraparound play at the L.A. net, I'd have to call and say, 'What have you got in your overheads?' L.A.'s got some real good video goal judges but other teams' aren't as good as L.A.'s, so you're relying on a third party to make a decision for you on a very important part of the game."

So you had people at the game doing the same job, basically, but you had to have someone at the head office call it, based on input from them. And you call the people AT THE GAME "third parties."

Well, I suppose they're doing a good job of creating jobs.
 
2013-08-15 03:18:35 PM

wxboy: Peter von Nostrand: Little League play with a 45' mound and 60' bases

I know what you meant, I'm just imagining 12-year-olds dropping baseballs off a scissor lift parked in the middle of the infield.


As soon as I hit add comment I saw that and thought of it in that way
 
2013-08-15 03:19:26 PM
In any case, any baseball that doesn't have every player play one inning at every position is horsesh*t pussy baseball.

While we're banning the DH, let's also ban relief pitchers. Pitchers pitch once a week anyway, how hard is it to make it through a game?
 
2013-08-15 03:19:56 PM

PowerSlacker: As for the proposed system, I would have the replay be called for by the central office instead of a challenge system.


The problem with this is that the central office has to be viewing all angles of every play of every game simultaneously. If you're going to have this goofy thing, instead of the far-more-intelligent 5th umpire system, it's better to at least have the people *at the game* decide if something should be looked at.
 
2013-08-15 03:20:20 PM

Peter von Nostrand: wxboy: Peter von Nostrand: Little League play with a 45' mound and 60' bases

I know what you meant, I'm just imagining 12-year-olds dropping baseballs off a scissor lift parked in the middle of the infield.

As soon as I hit add comment I saw that and thought of it in that way


That would eliminate the danger posed by comebackers.

/just don't put them up there on a windy day
 
2013-08-15 03:20:25 PM

Peter von Nostrand: They used to also ride trains when traveling but then times change and now teams fly.


Not always. Buses, trains and planes are used depending on distance.

Peter von Nostrand: Uh no on college, there is a DH in college.


That's been covered. See above.

Peter von Nostrand: Little League play with a 45' mound and 60' bases, why not go to that as well?


Ah, I see I'm arguing with an idiot. My bad. Won't happen again.
 
2013-08-15 03:20:44 PM

Peter von Nostrand: Gunderson: Peter von Nostrand: Next put the DH in the National League as well

Why stop there?  Why not just have a DH for every position player like football as well?  Have 9 fielders & 9 DHs.  No one wants to see another Ozzie Smith bat .262 anymore.

Wat?


If you're going to let one fielder get out of batting, why not all of them?
 
2013-08-15 03:21:07 PM

DeWayne Mann: Joe_diGriz: At least Selig might be out of the way by then.

Hahaha, you think Selig is going away at some point.


He IS retiring soon. That's why he's spearheading the PED witch hunt, so his legacy isn't "the guy who violated federal law on the way to canceling the world series"
 
2013-08-15 03:21:34 PM

DeWayne Mann: Frankly, I'd rather have 1 more season of no replay at all followed by a 5th umpire system than 2 years of this, two more years of "ok, you get challenges back if you win", 3 years of "get 1 new replay after every third extra inning" etc etc.


I think that the current proposal is a half-measure to appease those wanting replay without going too overboard with the purists.  I hope that changes can be made year by year, because I don't think you'll need more than one year to determine what's working and what needs fixing.
 
2013-08-15 03:22:14 PM

IAmRight: Pitchers pitch once a week anyway, how hard is it to make it through a game?


snakes had a stretch this season against either Padres or Giants where the other team burned three relievers in 4 pitches.  it was like, one pitch one hit, new pitcher, one pitch one hit, new pitcher, strike, hit, new reliever.  those 4 pitches took at least 5 minutes to get through with the pitching change.
 
2013-08-15 03:22:57 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Peter von Nostrand: put the DH in the National League as well

You mean remove the DH from the American League, surely.


Of course not. And quit calling me surely
 
2013-08-15 03:23:59 PM

Marcus Aurelius: If you're going to let one fielder get out of batting, why not all of them?


I think it's pretty damn clear that a pitcher is not simply a fielder. Pitching is more work than all the other positions combined.
 
2013-08-15 03:25:45 PM
A modest proposal to address extra innings: If they're going with 3 challenges for 9 innings, why not just say 3 challenges instead of the cockamamie '1 challenge in the first 6, 2 challenges in the last 3' system being floated about. Now you average one per 3 innings of play, so with that established, you can give another challenge to start the 10th (and you can use it in the 10th, 11th or 12th), another challenge to start the 13th, etc.
 
2013-08-15 03:26:42 PM

Gecko Gingrich: Peter von Nostrand: They used to also ride trains when traveling but then times change and now teams fly.

Not always. Buses, trains and planes are used depending on distance.

Peter von Nostrand: Uh no on college, there is a DH in college.

That's been covered. See above.

Peter von Nostrand: Little League play with a 45' mound and 60' bases, why not go to that as well?

Ah, I see I'm arguing with an idiot. My bad. Won't happen again.


I'm the idiot? Okay. You made a false comparison because in Little League as well as College, a DH can be used. If you don't like the DH that's fine with me. Just say so. Don't invent BS arguments and then tell me I'm an idiot because you used a false argument. The point of what I'm saying is that it's not really relevant what other levels of the sport use. The game is basically the same other than some minor differences
 
2013-08-15 03:26:51 PM

ElwoodCuse: He IS retiring soon.


So how are things in 2011?

Wait did I say 2011? I meant 2008.

...2006?

...2003? oh wait, that was the exact same link, because even in 2006 the "Bud is going to retire soon" thing was a joke.
 
2013-08-15 03:28:32 PM

Lost Thought 00: if it gets too bad, just remove the right for a batter to call time after a pitcher is set


Also, please enforce:

MLB Rule 8.04 When the bases are unoccupied, the pitcher shall deliver the ball to the batter within 12 seconds after he receives the ball. Each time the pitcher delays the game by violating this rule, the umpire shall call "Ball."

MLB Rule 5.10 The ball becomes dead when an umpire calls "Time." The umpire-in-chief shall call "Time"-
(a) When in his judgment weather, darkness or similar conditions make immediate further play impossible;
(b) When light failure makes it difficult or impossible for the umpires to follow the play;  NOTE: A league may adopt its own regulations governing games interrupted by light failure.
(c) When an accident incapacitates a player or an umpire;
(1) If an accident to a runner is such as to prevent him from proceeding to a base to which he is entitled, as on a home run hit out of the playing field, or an award of one or more bases, a substitute runner shall be permitted to complete the play.
(d) When a manager requests "Time" for a substitution, or for a conference with one of his players.
(e) When the umpire wishes to examine the ball, to consult with either manager, or for any similar cause.
(f) When a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field. As pertains to runners, the provisions
of 7.04(c) shall prevail.  If a fielder after making a catch steps into a bench, but does not fall, the ball is in play and runners may advance at their own peril.
(g) When an umpire orders a player or any other person removed from the playing field.
(h) Except in the cases stated in paragraphs (b) and (c)(1) of this rule, no umpire shall call "Time" while a play is in progress.

In other words, "I want to scratch myself and play with my batting glove" is not cause for the umpire to call "Time".
 
2013-08-15 03:29:35 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Peter von Nostrand: Gunderson: Peter von Nostrand: Next put the DH in the National League as well

Why stop there?  Why not just have a DH for every position player like football as well?  Have 9 fielders & 9 DHs.  No one wants to see another Ozzie Smith bat .262 anymore.

Wat?

If you're going to let one fielder get out of batting, why not all of them?


I understand the idea of what you're getting and that's fine. I think everyone knows that a pitcher is not the same as a regular position player. If you want to take it to the logical extreme, that's fine
 
2013-08-15 03:30:01 PM

idesofmarch: I hope that changes can be made year by year, because I don't think you'll need more than one year to determine what's working and what needs fixing.


You know what else can be fixed after a year?

World Series advantage from the ASG.

Having a single wild-card play-in game.

Jeffrey Loria being allowed to own a team.

And yet....
 
2013-08-15 03:30:12 PM
If you're going to have umpires/referrees, then don't use video.  If you're going to use video, then just computerize the whole damn thing. ok?

These artificial restrictions on video reviews are just crap, when we could just automate the whole damn officiating system.

Especially with the neato awesome Matrix camera system.
 
2013-08-15 03:31:13 PM
How about you get three challenges/free baserunners/free outs (maximum 1 per inning on baserunners)?

If you don't use your challenges, you get to put a guy on base to start the inning. Or, on defense, you can use it as a free out to start the inning. Neither affects player stats, but the batter would have to either go to first base or be out.

/all you "what about the strategy?" whiners should love this
 
2013-08-15 03:32:33 PM

DeWayne Mann: idesofmarch: I hope that changes can be made year by year, because I don't think you'll need more than one year to determine what's working and what needs fixing.

You know what else can be fixed after a year?

World Series advantage from the ASG.

Having a single wild-card play-in game.

Jeffrey Loria being allowed to own a team.

And yet....


Yeah, agree on all points there.  Although I do kinda like the single wild card game, since it does put emphasis back on winning the division, and that was useful.
 
2013-08-15 03:33:07 PM

Joe_diGriz: Other way around - 1 challenge through 6, 2 from 7th on.

Personally, I think any game umped by Angel Hernandez or Joe West should have an additional 5 challenges added.


That's even dumber.  Why do I get one challenge for six innings, then two in three innings?  Last I checked, the game of baseball adds up the runs from all the innings equally.  This isn't Jeopardy.
 
2013-08-15 03:34:25 PM

ekdikeo4: If you're going to have umpires/referrees, then don't use video.  If you're going to use video, then just computerize the whole damn thing. ok?

These artificial restrictions on video reviews are just crap, when we could just automate the whole damn officiating system.

Especially with the neato awesome Matrix camera system.


Have to disagree - tennis does things very effectively using a combination.  You have the chair and the linesmen make the calls, but the computers are brought in on the event of a challenge.  Sure, you could get rid of the linesmen, but they are faster than the computer (for the moment).  You really do get the best of both worlds.
 
2013-08-15 03:34:26 PM

idesofmarch: Although I do kinda like the single wild card game, since it does put emphasis back on winning the division, and that was useful.


I've got no issue with a second wild card.

But it needs to be a 3 game series. A single game is just stupid. It's the exact same as a tiebreaker....except the teams are not necessarily tied.
 
2013-08-15 03:34:41 PM

IAmRight: If you don't use your challenges, you get to put a guy on base to start the inning. Or, on defense, you can use it as a free out to start the inning. Neither affects player stats, but the batter would have to either go to first base or be out.


Well, this potatoed quickly.  Calvinball threads are under the "geek" tab.
 
2013-08-15 03:35:19 PM

NewWorldDan: naughtyrev: Think of it this way - that's more time before the beer sales are cut off.

I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

desertgeek: The easiest way to do this was to just have a 5th umpire in the press box with a TV monitor who could review plays before the next batter and if he needed more time to review a play, he could request that play be held up while he does that.

Unlike football, baseball doesn't have a timeout system. I kind of think that approach would just invite managers to come out and stall for time in the hope that the replay official would stop play.


Well, there's a couple of ways to work around that:

If you put the replay ump in a room that's visible to the field, you could give him some way of signaling to the stadium that he's reviewing the play (I've suggested on here in the past a red, yellow and green light thing with yellow meaning the play is under review and red and green should be obvious). If everyone knows the play is being reviewed, the manager has no need to come out and delay.

If that doesn't work, managers could be allowed 1 or 2 such "arguments" per game and any other time he comes out, he has to make a substitution. If that happens while on offense, the next batter has to be pinch hit for (it doesn't matter who that batter is).
 
2013-08-15 03:35:27 PM

chimp_ninja: That's even dumber. Why do I get one challenge for six innings, then two in three innings? Last I checked, the game of baseball adds up the runs from all the innings equally. This isn't Jeopardy.


So that in 20 years, we can say "No one was a better clutch challenger than Mike Matheny."
 
2013-08-15 03:36:42 PM

chimp_ninja: That's even dumber. Why do I get one challenge for six innings, then two in three innings? Last I checked, the game of baseball adds up the runs from all the innings equally. This isn't Jeopardy.


I dunno.... I find the thought of managers having to bet a number of "runs" that they're right amusing somehow.
 
2013-08-15 03:40:12 PM

DeWayne Mann: So that in 20 years, we can say "No one was a better clutch challenger than Mike Matheny."


that's farking funny
 
2013-08-15 03:41:27 PM
Shockingly, it sounds like the managers don't like this plan.

I wonder why.
 
2013-08-15 03:41:30 PM

chimp_ninja: That's even dumber. Why do I get one challenge for six innings, then two in three innings? Last I checked, the game of baseball adds up the runs from all the innings equally. This isn't Jeopardy.


And why do teams put so much emphasis on having a dedicated closer in the bullpen?
 
2013-08-15 03:42:11 PM

IAmRight: BTW, just hook up a TV at the place and let the home plate umpire rule on it. It's dumb to have someone not in the building rule on it - if replay is inconclusive or they decide something wrong (see NFL replays sometimes getting overturned into the wrong call, seemingly), the manager goes out and gets mad at the umpire and the umpire can even say "hell, I agree with you."

Not much satisfaction in that and it makes it seem like the game is rigged.

/AFL has the best review system (well, tennis does, but that's not going to happen) - ref goes over and looks at the TV; everyone watching the game can hear him comment as he's watching the replays, explaining what he's looking for and why he's calling what he's calling


What is the benefit of having the home plate ump involved? In fact it runs into the issue of having a vested interest in the call that prevents corrections already. And it will be the move that adds more time to the game.

As for arguing, any sane replay system will include a clause that if anyone interupts the game to argue a replay call they are instantly ejected (and, after a season to get used to it, I would like to add a suspension initially of one game but increasing by one game each time an individual is in violation over a season, but this isn't essential) and a corrolary, if you take actions to delay the game, you can no longer challenge it.
 
2013-08-15 03:44:51 PM

chimp_ninja: IAmRight: If you don't use your challenges, you get to put a guy on base to start the inning. Or, on defense, you can use it as a free out to start the inning. Neither affects player stats, but the batter would have to either go to first base or be out.

Well, this potatoed quickly.  Calvinball threads are under the "geek" tab.


C'mon, some people REALLY REALLY REALLY like the "strategy" of the game. Let's actually make managers use some strategy!

/baseball is by far the easiest sport to deal with, strategy-wise
 
2013-08-15 03:47:40 PM

DeWayne Mann: idesofmarch: Although I do kinda like the single wild card game, since it does put emphasis back on winning the division, and that was useful.

I've got no issue with a second wild card.

But it needs to be a 3 game series. A single game is just stupid. It's the exact same as a tiebreaker....except the teams are not necessarily tied.


Yes, I could see going three games - the challenge would be making room for it in the schedule, which has been debated ad nauseum, with the answer being that there is no good way to do that and still please everybody.
 
2013-08-15 03:48:42 PM

DeWayne Mann: chimp_ninja: That's even dumber. Why do I get one challenge for six innings, then two in three innings? Last I checked, the game of baseball adds up the runs from all the innings equally. This isn't Jeopardy.

So that in 20 years, we can say "No one was a better clutch challenger than Mike Matheny."


And there appears to be no reason not to use your two challenges.

I wonder if Jim Leyland or someone similarly feisty will start burning two challenges in any game where the umpire pisses him off.  Like 9th-inning, 2 outs, single to left-center, Jim Leyland asks for a ruling to check if the ball was a home run.  Then re-appeal the same play afterwards, to get a ruling if it was a foul ball.
 
2013-08-15 03:49:16 PM

dywed88: What is the benefit of having the home plate ump involved?


Because you're not taking the game away from the field.

dywed88: In fact it runs into the issue of having a vested interest in the call that prevents corrections already. And it will be the move that adds more time to the game.


a) everyone that complains about the length of time a baseball game takes is not a baseball fan
b) if your concern is that an umpire is going to intentionally, upon review, claim he's right despite obvious visual evidence that he's wrong, he should not be employed. That's not a flaw of the system - that's a flaw in your hiring/retaining process.
 
2013-08-15 03:51:06 PM

chimp_ninja: And there appears to be no reason not to use your two challenges.


Except if you can add baserunners or make it a little easier to get three outs!

/stop taking it so seriously, it's just baseball, everyone
 
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