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(ESPN)   Don't look now, but you will never guess which two players lead all MLB position players (hitters/ fielders) in Wins Above Replacement   (espn.go.com) divider line 181
    More: Obvious, Major League Baseball, wars, position player, Adrian Beltre, Hanley Ramirez, David Wright, Carlos Gomez, Jason Kipnis  
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2625 clicks; posted to Sports » on 14 Aug 2013 at 10:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-14 05:11:14 PM

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Triple Crown = Insta-MVP

There really is no argument to the contrary.


Except for all the arguments to the contrary, you mean?

1933: Chuck Klein wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting
1934: Lou Gehrig wins the Triple Crown, comes in 5th in MVP voting.
1942: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.
1947: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.

Insta-MVP, indeed.


I didn't come here to talk about the past!
 
2013-08-14 05:12:23 PM

The Drawing Board: DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Triple Crown = Insta-MVP

There really is no argument to the contrary.


Except for all the arguments to the contrary, you mean?

1933: Chuck Klein wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting
1934: Lou Gehrig wins the Triple Crown, comes in 5th in MVP voting.
1942: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.
1947: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.

Insta-MVP, indeed.

I didn't come here to talk about the past!


Few things are more "the past" then Triple Crowns.
 
2013-08-14 05:15:58 PM
WAR is the most over rated stat in baseball
 
2013-08-14 05:23:58 PM

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Triple Crown = Insta-MVP

There really is no argument to the contrary.


Except for all the arguments to the contrary, you mean?

1933: Chuck Klein wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting
1934: Lou Gehrig wins the Triple Crown, comes in 5th in MVP voting.
1942: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.
1947: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.

Insta-MVP, indeed.

I didn't come here to talk about the past!

Few things are more "the past" then Triple Crowns.



True dat.  Up until last season there hadn't been a Triple Crown winner in nearly 50 years but someone leads the league in WAR every year.
 
2013-08-14 05:25:20 PM

The Drawing Board: someone leads the league in WAR every year.


Sometimes multiple people!
 
2013-08-14 05:33:16 PM

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: someone leads the league in WAR every year.

Sometimes multiple people!


Never been a tie for the Triple Crown!

Can the decimal in the WAR stat be extended out?
 
2013-08-14 05:36:40 PM

The Drawing Board: Can the decimal in the WAR stat be extended out?


Oh sure. You never know when that extra 3 thousandths of a run might be the difference between winning the division and last place.
 
2013-08-14 05:40:05 PM

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Can the decimal in the WAR stat be extended out?

Oh sure. You never know when that extra 3 thousandths of a run might be the difference between winning the division and last place.


Or the difference between winning the MVP or not.
 
2013-08-14 05:48:26 PM

The Drawing Board: DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Can the decimal in the WAR stat be extended out?

Oh sure. You never know when that extra 3 thousandths of a run might be the difference between winning the division and last place.

Or the difference between winning the MVP or not.


Here's an interesting factoid: the difference between Willie Mays & Duke Snider for the rWAR lead in 1956 was just 0.02 WAR!

Snider came in 10th in MVP voting; Mays was 17th. As expected.
 
2013-08-14 05:57:17 PM
DeWayne Mann:
Sort of like wins, from above, it sort of made sense back when there was just ONE playoff team in each league. But the Tigers making the playoffs despite having a worse record than the Angels (who didn't) should demonstrate why it's silly now.


I understand, but disagree with, the idea that the MVP must come from a playoff team. If all the matters is making the post season or not one could say all wins from a team that doesn't make it (even if they have a better record) have "no value."

There are a lot of problems with this position: we are clearly no longer awarding the best performing player, we are taking into account other players into the MVP debate, etc. but I understand why people have this championship or nothing attitude. As long as those people also use real metrics to evaluate potential candidates I am willing to understand their flawed position that the MVP is a team award given to the best player who played with other good players in a weaker division than the actual best player.
 
2013-08-14 06:02:32 PM

You're the jerk... jerk: DeWayne Mann:
Sort of like wins, from above, it sort of made sense back when there was just ONE playoff team in each league. But the Tigers making the playoffs despite having a worse record than the Angels (who didn't) should demonstrate why it's silly now.


I understand, but disagree with, the idea that the MVP must come from a playoff team. If all the matters is making the post season or not one could say all wins from a team that doesn't make it (even if they have a better record) have "no value."


It's sort of similar to a discussion here on fark a few weeks back. Someone claimed that if a player hit a triple with the bases empty and never scored, then that triple had no offensive value for the team.

It's an idea that obviously breaks down once you really start digging into it, but he just couldn't move past "0 runs = 0 value for everyone."

You're the jerk... jerk: There are a lot of problems with this position: we are clearly no longer awarding the best performing player, we are taking into account other players into the MVP debate, etc. but I understand why people have this championship or nothing attitude. As long as those people also use real metrics to evaluate potential candidates I am willing to understand their flawed position that the MVP is a team award given to the best player who played with other good players in a weaker division than the actual best player.


I just don't see why an individual award should depend so much on team performance.
 
2013-08-14 06:05:23 PM

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Can the decimal in the WAR stat be extended out?

Oh sure. You never know when that extra 3 thousandths of a run might be the difference between winning the division and last place.

Or the difference between winning the MVP or not.

Here's an interesting factoid: the difference between Willie Mays & Duke Snider for the rWAR lead in 1956 was just 0.02 WAR!

Snider came in 10th in MVP voting; Mays was 17th. As expected.


Mantle's Triple Crown and MVP year heh

Granted he blew the rest of the AL out of the water in WAR
 
2013-08-14 06:09:43 PM

The Drawing Board: Mantle's Triple Crown and MVP year heh

Granted he blew the rest of the AL out of the water in WAR


In fact, he was so good, he completely screwed up the NL voting.
 
2013-08-14 06:15:45 PM

DeWayne Mann: All together, Scherzer has pitched in two games where the tigers scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 0-1. The team was 1-1.

Comparatively, Felix Hernandez has pitched in 10 games where the Mariners have scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 3-3. The team was 3-7.


I think Chris Sale would kill for Felix's run support, let alone Scherzer's major league leading 6+ per game. The difference in run support between Sale and Felix isn't that far off in the difference in support between Felix and Scherzer.
 
2013-08-14 06:19:23 PM

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Mantle's Triple Crown and MVP year heh

Granted he blew the rest of the AL out of the water in WAR

In fact, he was so good, he completely screwed up the NL voting.


It had a huge impact on the general election that year too. Stevenson was hosed.
 
2013-08-14 06:22:33 PM

GQueue: DeWayne Mann: All together, Scherzer has pitched in two games where the tigers scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 0-1. The team was 1-1.

Comparatively, Felix Hernandez has pitched in 10 games where the Mariners have scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 3-3. The team was 3-7.

I think Chris Sale would kill for Felix's run support, let alone Scherzer's major league leading 6+ per game. The difference in run support between Sale and Felix isn't that far off in the difference in support between Felix and Scherzer.


He's actually pitched in only 9 "2 or fewer games" (and he's 1-7 in them; the team is 2-7)

'Course, this is partially because he's started fewer games....and he had more "White Sox get shut out" games....
 
2013-08-14 06:25:08 PM

The Drawing Board: DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Mantle's Triple Crown and MVP year heh

Granted he blew the rest of the AL out of the water in WAR

In fact, he was so good, he completely screwed up the NL voting.

It had a huge impact on the general election that year too. Stevenson was hosed.


Rumor has it the Soviets made sure to launch Sputnik before the next year's MVP voting in case the world ended.
 
2013-08-14 06:27:13 PM

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Mantle's Triple Crown and MVP year heh

Granted he blew the rest of the AL out of the water in WAR

In fact, he was so good, he completely screwed up the NL voting.

It had a huge impact on the general election that year too. Stevenson was hosed.

Rumor has it the Soviets made sure to launch Sputnik before the next year's MVP voting in case the world ended.


lol well played

Cheers!
 
2013-08-14 06:35:25 PM

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Triple Crown = Insta-MVP

There really is no argument to the contrary.


Except for all the arguments to the contrary, you mean?

1933: Chuck Klein wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting
1934: Lou Gehrig wins the Triple Crown, comes in 5th in MVP voting.
1942: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.
1947: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.

Insta-MVP, indeed.


To be fair 2 of those players on that list were Gehrig and Williams. Gehrig was outright hated by most in baseball and the writers and Williams was disliked by the writers. Them not winning was clearly a middle finger to them. I don't know much about Klein, so I don't know what the deal was with his year or if he had pissed in anybodies Wheaties.

But the bottom line is, unless you are very disliked by the voters, or somebody else breaks a major or long standing record, if you get the triple crown you are going to be the MVP no matter what your team does.
 
2013-08-14 06:42:38 PM

ongbok: To be fair 2 of those players on that list were Gehrig and Williams. Gehrig was outright hated by most in baseball and the writers and Williams was disliked by the writers. Them not winning was clearly a middle finger to them. I don't know much about Klein, so I don't know what the deal was with his year or if he had pissed in anybodies Wheaties.

But the bottom line is, unless you are very disliked by the voters, or somebody else breaks a major or long standing record, if you get the triple crown you are going to be the MVP no matter what your team does.


So you're totally ok with "not being hated by the writers" as an MVP criterion?  Don't think that's silly?
 
2013-08-14 06:46:01 PM

DeWayne Mann: ongbok: To be fair 2 of those players on that list were Gehrig and Williams. Gehrig was outright hated by most in baseball and the writers and Williams was disliked by the writers. Them not winning was clearly a middle finger to them. I don't know much about Klein, so I don't know what the deal was with his year or if he had pissed in anybodies Wheaties.

But the bottom line is, unless you are very disliked by the voters, or somebody else breaks a major or long standing record, if you get the triple crown you are going to be the MVP no matter what your team does.

So you're totally ok with "not being hated by the writers" as an MVP criterion?  Don't think that's silly?


I'm not ok with it, but it does come into play at times for things that writers vote on in all sports. It is silly not to think that it does.
 
2013-08-14 06:49:22 PM

This Looks Fun: DeWayne Mann:

From lurking baseball threads, should I ever decide to step in, I'll tread lightly when you're around if there's a statistical argument to be had. You are far too good of a study.


Walter white approves.
 
2013-08-14 06:53:25 PM

ongbok: I'm not ok with it, but it does come into play at times for things that writers vote on in all sports. It is silly not to think that it does.


Sounds like something worth fixing. Too bad no one other than the writers could possibly be allowed to vote.
 
2013-08-14 06:56:42 PM
How do I know when I love a thread? When the whole damn thing is green.
 
2013-08-14 07:00:17 PM

SlothB77: How do I know when I love a thread? When the whole damn thing is green.


You gotta switch up the colors, man. Mine's got yellow, red, blue, orange, purple & grey.

Amusingly, no green at all.
 
2013-08-14 07:01:41 PM

zarberg: How does Wright have that high of a WAR?


He's a strong defender at a position of average importance, batting .309/.391/.512 in a (still) pitcher-friendly ballpark, and he adds further value by being an excellent baserunner.

What do you want him to do?  Pitch the 9th?
 
2013-08-14 07:10:30 PM

meanmutton: People that thought Cabrera deserved it thought that he was a far superior player -- that defense is over rated


These people are dumb.  One run prevented is worth exactly as much as one run scored.

, that performance later in the year when the opponents were trying harder was more important than performance earlier in the year,

These people are dumb.  One win in April is worth roughly as much as one win in October.  If anything, winning games in April is more valuable, because you can make decisions later in the year based on your position in the standings, whereas in April you need to play to win every year.  (For example: If you're coasting into September, you can rest key players.  If you're in a tight race in July, it might change your deadline trade strategies.  You want a big lead early that you can "let" decline to an extent.)

Also, any team that isn't "trying hard" in April is dumb.
 
2013-08-14 07:43:48 PM

DeWayne Mann: ongbok: I'm not ok with it, but it does come into play at times for things that writers vote on in all sports. It is silly not to think that it does.

Sounds like something worth fixing. Too bad no one other than the writers could possibly be allowed to vote.


No matter who is voting if a person is very disliked people will not vote for them just to give them a middle finger
 
2013-08-14 07:53:10 PM

chimp_ninja: zarberg: How does Wright have that high of a WAR?

He's a strong defender at a position of average importance, batting .309/.391/.512 in a (still) pitcher-friendly ballpark, and he adds further value by being an excellent baserunner.

What do you want him to do?  Pitch the 9th?


hes a met and mets r bad.  study it out.
 
2013-08-14 08:17:24 PM

chimp_ninja: zarberg: How does Wright have that high of a WAR?

He's a strong defender at a position of average importance, batting .309/.391/.512 in a (still) pitcher-friendly ballpark, and he adds further value by being an excellent baserunner.

What do you want him to do?  Pitch the 9th?


Wasn't being disrespectful or rude or snarky, just honestly didn't know what went into WAR.
 
2013-08-14 09:11:29 PM

idesofmarch: This Looks Fun: I still don't buy it. (Whiny Twins fan warning) When the Yankees buy all of the best players and make the playoffs, no ONE player on that team is more Valuable to the Yankees than the best player on a team full of Replacement Players.

If the Yankees buy all of the best players, how come none of them are even being considered for MVP?

/self-contradictory whining is contradictory


1. I said I was a whiny Twins fan.
2. I used that as an example. I did not say the Yankees have purchased all of the best players.

/ stupid addendum is stupid
 
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