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(ESPN)   Don't look now, but you will never guess which two players lead all MLB position players (hitters/ fielders) in Wins Above Replacement   (espn.go.com) divider line 181
    More: Obvious, Major League Baseball, wars, position player, Adrian Beltre, Hanley Ramirez, David Wright, Carlos Gomez, Jason Kipnis  
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2626 clicks; posted to Sports » on 14 Aug 2013 at 10:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-14 11:46:56 AM  

DeWayne Mann: Why Scherzer?


17-1

In the same ballpark, facing the same conditions against a rival pitcher (except for the lineup, of course), he has lost only once this season.  Low WHIP, lots of K's.

I know he pitches in pitcher-friendly Comerica, versus, say, Joulys Chacin, who has a similar ERA and pitches at Coors and gets more run support than, say, Felix Hernandez.
 
2013-08-14 11:48:05 AM  

DeWayne Mann: Mid_mo_mad_man: That's funny coming from you. That being said how is preventing runs from being scored not important?

Because that's not what dWAR is. That's vaguely what it used to be, but that's not what it is now.

What it is now is the addition of three somewhat related numbers and then dividing by ~10. Adding stuff together is fun, but it should probably serve some sort of purpose.




If we thought all numbers had to serve a purpose half of the new "stats" would disappear. Miggy might have won the MVP but if I owned a team I would rather have Trout. MVP numbers at a rock bottom salary
 
2013-08-14 11:48:39 AM  

SlothB77: thecpt: Anyways, I suspect miggy's duct taped hip isn't going to last another month. Should make these threads interesting soon.

Davis has been missing time as well, i think a hamstring issue.  So it is possible, if Miggy can get healthier than Davis, for him to catch up.  But both have been missing time.  I am surprised his injuries have not effected his productivity yet.


I think it was Saturday, miggy jacked a change up 5in inside THE BATTER'S BOX. I'm thinking there is some luck involved, but it's obvious he is running station to station and both Jackson and hunter looked like they knew their job in front of him.
 
2013-08-14 11:49:04 AM  

Rex_Banner: Also, can Kuroda get some love for the AL CYA? I'm not saying he should win it, but it seems like he's waaaayyyyyyy too far under the radar


People are complaining about Yankees players being under the radar now?
 
2013-08-14 11:51:35 AM  


SlothB77:
People are complaining about Yankees players being under the radar now?
 
2013-08-14 11:52:39 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: DeWayne Mann: Mid_mo_mad_man: That's funny coming from you. That being said how is preventing runs from being scored not important?

Because that's not what dWAR is. That's vaguely what it used to be, but that's not what it is now.

What it is now is the addition of three somewhat related numbers and then dividing by ~10. Adding stuff together is fun, but it should probably serve some sort of purpose.

If we thought all numbers had to serve a purpose half of the new "stats" would disappear. Miggy might have won the MVP but if I owned a team I would rather have Trout. MVP numbers at a rock bottom salary


Yeah it's not going to be rock bottom for long. He is eligible for arbitration next season. That salary is about to jump through the roof.
 
2013-08-14 11:52:54 AM  

SlothB77: 17-1


guh

SlothB77: (except for the lineup, of course)


That seems like it should be more than just a parenthetical.

SlothB77: Low WHIP, lots of K's.


Ok, so, what about Darvish? He's not my personal choice, but his WHIP is very similar (1.00 vs Max's 0.91) and he has 26 more K, despite one fewer start.
 
2013-08-14 11:56:35 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: If we thought all numbers had to serve a purpose half of the new "stats" would disappear.


Most new stats absolutely have a purpose. You may reject that purpose, or you may not have done enough research into the stat to know that purpose, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

dWAR has absolutely no meaning. Or it has a meaning that is useless. I'm still somewhat undecided on that.
 
2013-08-14 11:57:35 AM  
Darvish is having a really good season, too.  Consider the 17-1 the tiebreaker between the two.  On strict WAR, Sale or Hernandez would get it.
 
2013-08-14 11:58:00 AM  
Sorry you had to wait until August to use this headline, subby. Lucky or you Trout finally started hitting
 
2013-08-14 12:01:23 PM  

SlothB77: Consider the 17-1 the tiebreaker between the two.


I just don't see why you'd even bother looking at any pitcher's record in the first place.
 
2013-08-14 12:01:30 PM  
Wild, wild stab: Cabrera and Trout.
 
2013-08-14 12:02:33 PM  

This Looks Fun: Wild, wild stab: Cabrera and Trout.


AWESOME! So glad I replaced Fielder with Trout. And I just saw on ESPN the crazy stats that Cabrera has right now. Funny to have a better season without winning Triple Crown.
 
2013-08-14 12:05:40 PM  

This Looks Fun: Funny to have a better season without winning Triple Crown.


From 2010 - 2013, Miguel Cabrera's worst hitting season was 2012, when he won the Triple Crown.
 
2013-08-14 12:09:53 PM  
Cool to see a few Brewers high up on the list -- too bad their pitching is rotten.
 
2013-08-14 12:12:43 PM  

DeWayne Mann: SlothB77: Consider the 17-1 the tiebreaker between the two.

I just don't see why you'd even bother looking at any pitcher's record in the first place.


Who wins head-to-head matchups are important.  Maybe one game scherzer is spotted an 8-0 lead, takes his foot off the gas and allows four runs, still gets the W.  Does that mean he is a worse pitcher?  Another game is a 1-0 pitcher's dual and he is able to outpitch the other guy.

That game that started at 4pm and the shadows slide over home plate, distracting the hitters - he was able to win that one.  That game when the weather was 40 degrees and the pitchers hands were cold - he was able to pitch in the cold better than his opponent.  That game when it was sweltering 105 degrees and he is sweating bullets - he was able to endure the heat better than the opposing pitcher too.  That game interrupted by a thunderstorm rain delay - he was able to bounce back after the wait better than the opposing pitcher.

In the same conditions against an opposing pitcher, 17 times he was better.  Only one time he was worse.
 
2013-08-14 12:14:52 PM  
userserve-ak.last.fm

Would like to know what it's good for
 
2013-08-14 12:15:22 PM  

SlothB77: DeWayne Mann: SlothB77: Consider the 17-1 the tiebreaker between the two.

I just don't see why you'd even bother looking at any pitcher's record in the first place.

Who wins head-to-head matchups are important.  Maybe one game scherzer is spotted an 8-0 lead, takes his foot off the gas and allows four runs, still gets the W.  Does that mean he is a worse pitcher?  Another game is a 1-0 pitcher's dual and he is able to outpitch the other guy.

That game that started at 4pm and the shadows slide over home plate, distracting the hitters - he was able to win that one.  That game when the weather was 40 degrees and the pitchers hands were cold - he was able to pitch in the cold better than his opponent.  That game when it was sweltering 105 degrees and he is sweating bullets - he was able to endure the heat better than the opposing pitcher too.  That game interrupted by a thunderstorm rain delay - he was able to bounce back after the wait better than the opposing pitcher.

In the same conditions against an opposing pitcher, 17 times he was better.  Only one time he was worse.


Yeah, that's a fun argument. Good thing both pitchers face the same batters
 
2013-08-14 12:17:19 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Someone on ESPN said last night that because Miggy is better this year than last year, but he was the MVP last year, that automatically means he's the MVP this year.


I like how you somehow expected rational and intelligent discourse from BSPN.
 
2013-08-14 12:23:08 PM  

SlothB77: Maybe one game scherzer is spotted an 8-0 lead, takes his foot off the gas and allows four runs, still gets the W. Does that mean he is a worse pitcher?


Ignoring that there's not really a lot of evidence for pitching to the score....

That says to me that Scherzer's offense gives him an advantage other pitchers don't get. Shouldn't we be looking to remove advantages like that?

SlothB77: Another game is a 1-0 pitcher's dual and he is able to outpitch the other guy.


In every game Scherzer has won this year, the Tigers have scored 3 or more runs. Additionally, there was a 2-1 game where Drew Smyly got the win.

All together, Scherzer has pitched in two games where the tigers scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 0-1. The team was 1-1.

Comparatively, Felix Hernandez has pitched in 10 games where the Mariners have scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 3-3. The team was 3-7.

SlothB77: In the same conditions


But as you said: it's not the same conditions. The other pitcher has to face Miguel Cabrera, Prince Fielder, Austin Jackson, etc. Scherzer doesn't.
 
2013-08-14 12:24:25 PM  

Uncle Pooky: DeWayne Mann: Someone on ESPN said last night that because Miggy is better this year than last year, but he was the MVP last year, that automatically means he's the MVP this year.

I like how you somehow expected rational and intelligent discourse from BSPN.


Oh, I don't. But I don't get MLB Network (and, actually, I wasn't even home, so I only had what the hotel offered) and I wanted to watch some highlights from the day.
 
2013-08-14 12:26:45 PM  
He has a significantly higher BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, and HRs, but is only .1 higher in WAR.

He's blowing everybody away in offensive categories, but is a notch ahead in WAR.
 
2013-08-14 12:28:21 PM  

ongbok: Mid_mo_mad_man: DeWayne Mann: Mid_mo_mad_man: That's funny coming from you. That being said how is preventing runs from being scored not important?

Because that's not what dWAR is. That's vaguely what it used to be, but that's not what it is now.

What it is now is the addition of three somewhat related numbers and then dividing by ~10. Adding stuff together is fun, but it should probably serve some sort of purpose.

If we thought all numbers had to serve a purpose half of the new "stats" would disappear. Miggy might have won the MVP but if I owned a team I would rather have Trout. MVP numbers at a rock bottom salary

Yeah it's not going to be rock bottom for long. He is eligible for arbitration next season. That salary is about to jump through the roof.




True. They will have to trade him away to save salary. Because they need that money for a over the hill slugger they need to sign.
 
2013-08-14 12:28:59 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Uncle Pooky: DeWayne Mann: Someone on ESPN said last night that because Miggy is better this year than last year, but he was the MVP last year, that automatically means he's the MVP this year.

I like how you somehow expected rational and intelligent discourse from BSPN.

Oh, I don't. But I don't get MLB Network (and, actually, I wasn't even home, so I only had what the hotel offered) and I wanted to watch some highlights from the day.


Every time I remind my parents I don't have access to quick pitch they have an expression similar to if I told them I didn't have running water.
 
2013-08-14 12:30:43 PM  

DeWayne Mann: That says to me that Scherzer's offense gives him an advantage other pitchers don't get. Shouldn't we be looking to remove advantages like that?


how many Yankee pitcher win totals were because they only had to pitch 7 innings, then Mariano iced it?
 
2013-08-14 12:34:18 PM  

rickythepenguin: how many Yankee pitcher win totals were because they only had to pitch 7 innings, then Mariano iced it?


I'm sorry, stat heads don't value closers at all, so if you replaced Rivera with a journeyman relief pitcher for his whole career, the Yankees only would win 3 or 4 fewer games.
 
2013-08-14 12:35:30 PM  

rickythepenguin: i was saying recently how it it is astounding how after the Puig vs Kennedy* beanball incident, the Snakes completely collapsed and that's about when Los Doyers began their, what, 39-8 tear. Kennedy isn't even a Snake. Traded him in-division, at that.


Racism from an Arizona fan - what are the odds?
 
2013-08-14 12:36:51 PM  

idesofmarch: Racism from an Arizona fan - what are the odds?


What race are 'hispanic' people that he's being racist against?
 
2013-08-14 12:37:53 PM  
The MVP should only be given to triple crown winners on playoff teams who didn't slump at the end of the season. In years where these conditions are not met, there should be no MVP.
 
2013-08-14 12:39:59 PM  

MugzyBrown: He has a significantly higher BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, and HRs, but is only .1 higher in WAR.

He's blowing everybody away in offensive categories, but is a notch ahead in WAR.


....yep? Not sure what point you're trying to make.

rickythepenguin: how many Yankee pitcher win totals were because they only had to pitch 7 innings, then Mariano iced it?


Don't know; don't care.

MugzyBrown: I'm sorry, stat heads don't value closers at all, so if you replaced Rivera with a journeyman relief pitcher for his whole career, the Yankees only would win 3 or 4 fewer games.


Mo's career fWAR is nearly 40, but yeah, totally. 3 or 4 wins. You totally understand what 'stat heads' think.
 
2013-08-14 12:40:02 PM  

MugzyBrown: idesofmarch: Racism from an Arizona fan - what are the odds?

What race are 'hispanic' people that he's being racist against?


He's being racist against that city the angels. He probably supports trout too.
 
2013-08-14 12:40:57 PM  

DeWayne Mann: In every game Scherzer has won this year, the Tigers have scored 3 or more runs. Additionally, there was a 2-1 game where Drew Smyly got the win.

All together, Scherzer has pitched in two games where the tigers scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 0-1. The team was 1-1.

Comparatively, Felix Hernandez has pitched in 10 games where the Mariners have scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 3-3. The team was 3-7.


That 2-1 game that Smyly won.  Take a look at who Scherzer's opposing pitcher was.  And who had the better stat line.
 
2013-08-14 12:41:15 PM  

rcf1105: The MVP should only be given to triple crown winners on playoff teams who didn't slump at the end of the season. In years where these conditions are not met, there should be no MVP.




Only players from Boston, NYY, or StL should be considered for awards. I've learned that from fark baseball threads.
 
2013-08-14 12:41:50 PM  

MugzyBrown: 'm sorry, stat heads don't value closers at all, so if you replaced Rivera with a journeyman relief pitcher for his whole career, the Yankees only would win 3 or 4 fewer games.


MLB threads get so derpy I don't know if you're being facetious or fo shizz.


idesofmarch: Racism from an Arizona fan - what are the odds?


The Los Angeles Dodgers have trademarked the phrase "Los Doyers," a popular Hispanic nickname for the Boys in Blue. The team features "Los Doyers" T-shirts in their souvenir shops, which is a problem for local vendors who have been selling the name for years. Storeowners have received cease and desist letters from the Dodgers.

i'm sorry, i couldn't quite hear you. can you repeat that?
 
2013-08-14 12:42:12 PM  

rickythepenguin: SlothB77: Goldschmidt are on teams that right now would not make the playoff


i was saying recently how it it is astounding how after the Puig vs Kennedy* beanball incident, the Snakes completely collapsed and that's about when Los Doyers began their, what, 39-8 tear.  Kennedy isn't even a Snake.  Traded him in-division, at that.

Wondering what happens to Gibby if the Snakes don't make the playoffs.  Last year we finished 3rd, barely at .500.  a 5.5 game lead circa the ASG has now become a 7.5 deficit with about 40 games left.  yeah, NL West title in 2011, but nothing came of it (first round loss).  No playoffs in 2012.  Probably no playoffs, and a pretty incredible collapse in the second half in 2013.  I wonder how safe Gibby is if the Snakes complete the gag job.


*still mad that my headline of like, "Kennedy incites Bay of Puigs incident" headline wasn't greenlit


Maybe the DBacks should stop trading any talent that dares to look at coaches or veterans funny.
 
2013-08-14 12:43:21 PM  

SlothB77: That 2-1 game that Smyly won. Take a look at who Scherzer's opposing pitcher was. And who had the better stat line.


Thanks for making my point for me.
 
2013-08-14 12:45:14 PM  

Dafatone: Maybe the DBacks should stop trading any talent that dares to look at coaches or veterans funny.



you know something i don't....kennedy did that?

i know the team got sick of that pitcher we sent to Cleveland, because he and his dad thougth they knew what was best, and TREVOR BAUER (just flashed on the name) rubbed some of the vets the wrong way.

or Upton, but he was just inconsistent and not worth the money.

ehh.  who cares.
 
2013-08-14 12:47:51 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Mo's career fWAR is nearly 40, but yeah, totally. 3 or 4 wins. You totally understand what 'stat heads' think.


According to baseball reference, MO's average WAR for his career is 3.  If you look at his peek it's typically about 3.5 - 4.5 per season.

Thus he is giving the Yankees 3-4 wins per season than they would have had if they had just used Scott Procter as their 9th inning guy.
 
2013-08-14 12:48:04 PM  

idesofmarch: Racism from an Arizona fan - what are the odds?



and also, when i'm in LA or SoCal for that matter - hell, parts of Phoenix - muchos personas hablar a la espanol to me.  I ain't exactly blonde haired and blue eyed, if you catch my drift.

¡MUY COMICO!
 
2013-08-14 12:49:36 PM  

MugzyBrown: so if you replaced Rivera with a journeyman relief pitcher for his whole career, the Yankees only would win 3 or 4 fewer games.


MugzyBrown: According to baseball reference, MO's average WAR for his career is 3. If you look at his peek it's typically about 3.5 - 4.5 per season.


DeWayne Mann: Thanks for making my point for me.

 
2013-08-14 12:51:19 PM  

DeWayne Mann: SlothB77: That 2-1 game that Smyly won. Take a look at who Scherzer's opposing pitcher was. And who had the better stat line.

Thanks for making my point for me.


It does appear, head-to-head King Felix was able to outpitch Scherzer.

Also, Scherzer has a total of 2 starts against teams with a .570 winning percentage or better.
 
2013-08-14 12:51:38 PM  

WTF Indeed: the Angels could be 10 games under .500 with or without Trout.


Well, technically, if WAR is to be believed, they would be closer to 16 games under .500 without him.
 
2013-08-14 12:54:33 PM  

SlothB77: Also, Scherzer has a total of 2 starts against teams with a .570 winning percentage or better.


DeWayne Mann: Thanks for making my point for me.


Look, wins made some sense for a pitcher in 1870. Most teams had 2 starting pitchers and no relievers. It's natural to look at what a team did when one guy was starting versus when the other guy was.

But even then, it didn't make much sense to compare players on different teams. And it makes far less sense now.
 
2013-08-14 12:55:46 PM  

rickythepenguin: Dafatone: Maybe the DBacks should stop trading any talent that dares to look at coaches or veterans funny.


you know something i don't....kennedy did that?

i know the team got sick of that pitcher we sent to Cleveland, because he and his dad thougth they knew what was best, and TREVOR BAUER (just flashed on the name) rubbed some of the vets the wrong way.

or Upton, but he was just inconsistent and not worth the money.

ehh.  who cares.


I'm just super pissed that the Braves got Upton for very little.  Well, Upton AND Chris Johnson, who even before this season was a pretty competent bat for a throw-in.

As to Bauer, I didn't like how that whole situation went down, and I thought Miguel Montero came off as REALLY thin skinned and whiny.  Bauer does need to adjust to be successful, and he's not having a particularly great year in AAA.  But he's 22, and was 21 last year, and bashing a teammate for not listening to advice after 3 starts at age 21 seems mean.

Upton's having a strange and inconsistent year, and probably isn't living up to his contract, but he's still only 25, and the Diamondbacks need outfield help.  Certainly, that trade's looking iffy right now, though we won't know until we see what some of the prospects involved do (and what Upton does down the road.)  Any time a team makes it clear that they're going to trade a guy, they shoot their negotiating position in the foot.  Once Upton turned down going to Seattle (which if I remember was for a huge package,) the DBacks should have packed up and gone home and tried midseason or next year.
 
2013-08-14 12:58:37 PM  

Dafatone: As to Bauer, I didn't like how that whole situation went down


I just don't understand why they drafted him in the first place.
 
2013-08-14 01:02:27 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Dafatone: As to Bauer, I didn't like how that whole situation went down

I just don't understand why they drafted him in the first place.


Was his reputation that well known at draft time?  Or is it a question of why did he go that high?

Knowing a guy has an attitude problem that won't sit well with your team and then drafting him anyway and spending his tenure in the minors worrying about that attitude problem is the sort of thing a lot of teams would do.
 
2013-08-14 01:04:23 PM  

Dafatone: that trade's looking iffy right now


yeah.....not being a huge fan (i've only been to two games this year despite living about 15 minutes from the park) I don't remember who we got other than Prado, but I think it was a 3 for 1 deal.  Prado has been OK.  flashes of above average talent then he turns into a JAG for like, 3 weeks.  he doesn't even start every day.  I can't say that the trade has really paid off for either team.  that delgado kid has been getting innings lately but i don't think he's really tearing it up.

the trade wil have to be evaluated (as with any trade) after a year or two.
 
2013-08-14 01:06:05 PM  

Dafatone: Was his reputation that well known at draft time?


Absolutely. Bauer said that if a team didn't want to buy into what he was doing (which is the same thing he's doing now), they shouldn't draft him.

The D-backs drafted him anyway, then tried to change him. In what way does that make sense?
 
2013-08-14 01:06:14 PM  

Dafatone: Was his reputation that well known at draft time? Or is it a question of why did he go that high?


i don't remember any attitude issues when we took him.   he just didn't adjust to the organization as well or as quickly as they hoped.  the relationship soured and that's why he's not here.  but i don't remeber any "draft day" issues.  who knows.
 
2013-08-14 01:07:25 PM  

rickythepenguin: I don't remember who we got other than Prado, but I think it was a 3 for 1 deal.


I'm pretty sure you got Prado and 4 crap pitchers. Delgado lost the 5th starter spot and made himself expendable. And, obviously, the Braves still have Minor, Beachy, and Alex Wood.

rickythepenguin: I can't say that the trade has really paid off for either team.


Well, look at it this way...given how the players have performed this year...I'm thinking the Braves make the same trade in a heart beat while the Diamondbacks balk at the idea.
 
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