Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(ESPN)   Don't look now, but you will never guess which two players lead all MLB position players (hitters/ fielders) in Wins Above Replacement   (espn.go.com) divider line 181
    More: Obvious, Major League Baseball, wars, position player, Adrian Beltre, Hanley Ramirez, David Wright, Carlos Gomez, Jason Kipnis  
•       •       •

2626 clicks; posted to Sports » on 14 Aug 2013 at 10:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



181 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-08-14 10:58:51 AM  
What is this, rWAR? All real nerds use fWAR which has the same two in the opposite order.

It is a little easier for me to try to defend Miggy as MVP this year but probably still going to have to say trout deserves it.


/Guess we will just have to be happy with a world series win
 
2013-08-14 10:59:51 AM  
But I was told that WAR is good for absolutely nothing.
 
2013-08-14 11:02:54 AM  
Yeah, I mean, I supported Trout last year, but I have no problem with Cabrera as of right now.

And Cabrera is probably going to win in a landslide anyway, so.......
 
2013-08-14 11:03:44 AM  
Wouldn't be crazy if Migs wins the Triple Crown again this year?
 
2013-08-14 11:03:45 AM  

Arkanaut: But I was told that WAR is good for absolutely nothing.


Good God, y'all.
 
2013-08-14 11:04:55 AM  
Look stat geeks, you can stop kiss Trout's ass. No amount of math formulas and "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP" will ever beat the facts that Cabrera is on an all-time historic tear and Trout's Angels are 10 games under .500.  As the old adage goes, the Angels could be 10 games under .500 with or without Trout.
 
2013-08-14 11:05:29 AM  
Someone on ESPN said last night that because Miggy is better this year than last year, but he was the MVP last year, that automatically means he's the MVP this year.

I'm not sure I can repeat what I said.
 
2013-08-14 11:06:37 AM  

WTF Indeed: Look stat geeks, you can stop kiss Trout's ass. No amount of math formulas and "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP" will ever beat the facts that Cabrera is on an all-time historic tear and Trout's Angels are 10 games under .500.  As the old adage goes, the Angels could be 10 games under .500 with or without Trout.


Si Miggy is a better player because he is on a better team?  Good to know
 
2013-08-14 11:06:39 AM  

WTF Indeed: "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP"


Who the hell said this? Because it's stupid
 
2013-08-14 11:08:11 AM  

DeWayne Mann: Someone on ESPN said last night that because Miggy is better this year than last year, but he was the MVP last year, that automatically means he's the MVP this year.

I'm not sure I can repeat what I said.


Now, if you want to crown him, then crown his ass!
 
2013-08-14 11:08:15 AM  

DeWayne Mann: Someone on ESPN said last night that because Miggy is better this year than last year, but he was the MVP last year, that automatically means he's the MVP this year.

I'm not sure I can repeat what I said.


This worked for Steve Nash, so there's precedent.
 
2013-08-14 11:08:59 AM  

Rex_Banner: WTF Indeed: "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP"

Who the hell said this? Because it's stupid


I may have said that as a way of demonstrating why many similar pro-Miggy arguments were stupid.
 
2013-08-14 11:09:43 AM  

Rex_Banner: WTF Indeed: "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP"

Who the hell said this? Because it's stupid


We should have an award for most cost-effective player.  It's a more modern view.
 
2013-08-14 11:10:02 AM  

ongbok: Wouldn't be crazy if Migs wins the Triple Crown again this year?


Won't happen unless Chris Davis knocks off his HR hitting soon.
 
2013-08-14 11:10:59 AM  

Rex_Banner: Who the hell said this? Because it's stupid


Jeff Passan

Because if you argue that salary = value then Trout is obviously the MVP because he makes 510k and Miggy makes 21m.
 
2013-08-14 11:12:06 AM  
Colby is almost in the top 30?! Oh gawd. We have to pay him now, don't we?
 
2013-08-14 11:12:22 AM  

WTF Indeed: with or without Trout.



Sleight of hand, and twist of fate
On a 3-2 count he makes me wait
And I'll wait, cos' I'm due

Through the 8th we reached the 'pen
Righty with a delivery like Robb Nen
And I'll wait, cos' I'm due

And I fouled one away
And I fouled one away
And again
And again

With or without Trout, oh oh
With or without Trout
We can't win, with or without Trout
 
2013-08-14 11:13:22 AM  
Yankees would probably be south of .500 without Robbie Cano or Hiroki Kuroda, therefore, one of those two are the clear MVP choices.
 
2013-08-14 11:15:14 AM  

tdunning: WTF Indeed: Look stat geeks, you can stop kiss Trout's ass. No amount of math formulas and "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP" will ever beat the facts that Cabrera is on an all-time historic tear and Trout's Angels are 10 games under .500.  As the old adage goes, the Angels could be 10 games under .500 with or without Trout.

Si Miggy is a better player because he is on a better team?  Good to know


notice how it's called "Most Valuable Player", not "Best Player"?
 
2013-08-14 11:17:23 AM  

You're the jerk... jerk: What is this, rWAR? All real nerds use fWAR which has the same two in the opposite order.

It is a little easier for me to try to defend Miggy as MVP this year but probably still going to have to say trout deserves it.


/Guess we will just have to be happy with a world series win




Or use dwar and see what may surpise some people on who's leading in that.
 
2013-08-14 11:17:27 AM  

fark_me_running: notice how it's called "Most Valuable Player", not "Best Player"?


www.godprobe.com
 
2013-08-14 11:18:28 AM  

WTF Indeed: Rex_Banner: Who the hell said this? Because it's stupid

Jeff Passan

Because if you argue that salary = value then Trout is obviously the MVP because he makes 510k and Miggy makes 21m.


Makes as much sense as "Miggy is the MVP because his team was in a weaker division."

thecpt: Colby is almost in the top 30?! Oh gawd. We have to pay him now, don't we?


No. Colby's still arb eligible, and you can't use basically any of the stats that go into WAR in an arb hearing. And none of his traditional stats are impressive.
 
2013-08-14 11:18:39 AM  
Lol, Orioles have two guys in the top ten and won't make the playoffs.
 
2013-08-14 11:18:49 AM  

fark_me_running: tdunning: WTF Indeed: Look stat geeks, you can stop kiss Trout's ass. No amount of math formulas and "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP" will ever beat the facts that Cabrera is on an all-time historic tear and Trout's Angels are 10 games under .500.  As the old adage goes, the Angels could be 10 games under .500 with or without Trout.

Si Miggy is a better player because he is on a better team?  Good to know

notice how it's called "Most Valuable Player", not "Best Player"?


Ok so players on good teams can't win because their teams would still be good anyway and players from bad teams can't win because they're bad anyway. MVP awards should be reserved for players on average teams who would be slightly below average in their absence.
 
2013-08-14 11:19:38 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: Or use dwar and see what may surpise some people on who's leading in that.


Yes let's all use a stat that has no actual meaning.
 
2013-08-14 11:19:49 AM  
So if Miggy wins a second consecutive MVP, does that make him........*dons sunglasses*.....Multiple Miggs YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
 
2013-08-14 11:20:23 AM  

Rex_Banner: And Cabrera is probably going to win in a landslide anyway, so.......


I had just assumed Chris Davis was the frontrunner for this year's AL MVP.

MVP:
AL: Chris Davis
NL: Paul Goldschmidt

Cy Young
AL: Max Scherzer
NL: Clayton Kershaw

My only concern is both Davis and Goldschmidt are on teams that right now would not make the playoffs, and so if making the playoffs is a factor for those who decide, those awards could go to McCutchen and Cabrera instead.
 
2013-08-14 11:22:19 AM  

SlothB77: Rex_Banner: And Cabrera is probably going to win in a landslide anyway, so.......

I had just assumed Chris Davis was the frontrunner for this year's AL MVP.

MVP:
AL: Chris Davis
NL: Paul Goldschmidt

Cy Young
AL: Max Scherzer
NL: Clayton Kershaw

My only concern is both Davis and Goldschmidt are on teams that right now would not make the playoffs, and so if making the playoffs is a factor for those who decide, those awards could go to McCutchen and Cabrera instead.


Is this YOUR ballot, or what you think will happen?
 
2013-08-14 11:22:51 AM  

tdunning: WTF Indeed: Look stat geeks, you can stop kiss Trout's ass. No amount of math formulas and "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP" will ever beat the facts that Cabrera is on an all-time historic tear and Trout's Angels are 10 games under .500.  As the old adage goes, the Angels could be 10 games under .500 with or without Trout.

Si Miggy is a better player because he is on a better team?  Good to know


No, the Tigers are better team because of his offense, and his offense is a very big part of their success. That is what the MVP is, the person most valuable to a teams success. Without Miggy they are probably tied with Cleveland and KC for the division lead instead of 6 games up. With out Trout the Angels are still out of contention. Carlos Gomez's numbers are almost comparable to Trout's, and I will say if Gomez was on a team that had more hitting his numbers would mirror Trout's. Nobody's numbers have been near Miggy's and nobody's number would rise to his numbers from an improvement in the batting on his team.
 
2013-08-14 11:25:17 AM  

DeWayne Mann: Makes as much sense as "Miggy is the MVP because his team was in a weaker division."


First of all, that's the worst argument for someone in the history of arguments. Second, the "cost-effective" argument is at least supportable, however its goal here is not to say salary should be taken into account, but rather "we need to find away for our formulas to take the lead forever". You're adding another number to your argument instead of just relying solely on WAR.
 
2013-08-14 11:26:15 AM  

DeWayne Mann: SlothB77: Rex_Banner: And Cabrera is probably going to win in a landslide anyway, so.......

I had just assumed Chris Davis was the frontrunner for this year's AL MVP.

MVP:
AL: Chris Davis
NL: Paul Goldschmidt

Cy Young
AL: Max Scherzer
NL: Clayton Kershaw

My only concern is both Davis and Goldschmidt are on teams that right now would not make the playoffs, and so if making the playoffs is a factor for those who decide, those awards could go to McCutchen and Cabrera instead.

Is this YOUR ballot, or what you think will happen?


What i think will happen.

My ballot is:

Trout
McCutchen

Scherzer
Kershaw
 
2013-08-14 11:28:41 AM  

DeWayne Mann: WTF Indeed: Rex_Banner: Who the hell said this? Because it's stupid

Jeff Passan

Because if you argue that salary = value then Trout is obviously the MVP because he makes 510k and Miggy makes 21m.

Makes as much sense as "Miggy is the MVP because his team was in a weaker division."

thecpt: Colby is almost in the top 30?! Oh gawd. We have to pay him now, don't we?

No. Colby's still arb eligible, and you can't use basically any of the stats that go into WAR in an arb hearing. And none of his traditional stats are impressive.


Yeah, I knew it was the arb year but I'm pretty sure AA has repeatedly told Colby he is the best thing evar. I have no clue what that fetches on the arb market.

Anyways, I suspect miggy's duct taped hip isn't going to last another month. Should make these threads interesting soon.
 
2013-08-14 11:29:06 AM  

DeWayne Mann: Mid_mo_mad_man: Or use dwar and see what may surpise some people on who's leading in that.

Yes let's all use a stat that has no actual meaning.


Or we could just guess because of the nature of dWAR the leaders will be the two best defensive short stops in the game.
 
2013-08-14 11:29:23 AM  
"person most valuable to a team's success" isn't necessarily what the award is for. Hockey has a definition, baseball doesn't.
 
2013-08-14 11:29:51 AM  

SlothB77: Goldschmidt are on teams that right now would not make the playoff



i was saying recently how it it is astounding how after the Puig vs Kennedy* beanball incident, the Snakes completely collapsed and that's about when Los Doyers began their, what, 39-8 tear.  Kennedy isn't even a Snake.  Traded him in-division, at that.

Wondering what happens to Gibby if the Snakes don't make the playoffs.  Last year we finished 3rd, barely at .500.  a 5.5 game lead circa the ASG has now become a 7.5 deficit with about 40 games left.  yeah, NL West title in 2011, but nothing came of it (first round loss).  No playoffs in 2012.  Probably no playoffs, and a pretty incredible collapse in the second half in 2013.  I wonder how safe Gibby is if the Snakes complete the gag job.


*still mad that my headline of like, "Kennedy incites Bay of Puigs incident" headline wasn't greenlit
 
2013-08-14 11:30:05 AM  

WTF Indeed: First of all, that's the worst argument for someone in the history of arguments


Yes, that's what I spent a week trying to explain last year. Thanks for agreeing with me.

WTF Indeed: You're adding another number to your argument instead of just relying solely on WAR.


Since you're confused, let me break this down for you:

Most of the pro-Trout guys thought Trout was the MVP because he was a far superior player. WAR is just one way of demonstrating that.

Most of the pro-Cabrera guys thought he was the MVP because of other things: playoffs, triple crown, him moving to third to make room for Fielder, etc.

I'm fully convinced Trout was better, but if you aren't, then I HAVE to use "other things" to make my case to you. Thus, his salary is roughly as legitimate as anything used in Miggy's case.
 
2013-08-14 11:31:12 AM  
Cabrera is going to rightfully win again this year with ease.
 
2013-08-14 11:31:16 AM  

Arkanaut: But I was told that WAR is good for absolutely nothing.


Say it again?
 
2013-08-14 11:32:35 AM  

WTF Indeed: Jeff Passan


There's you're problem
 
2013-08-14 11:32:42 AM  

DeWayne Mann: Mid_mo_mad_man: Or use dwar and see what may surpise some people on who's leading in that.

Yes let's all use a stat that has no actual meaning.




That's funny coming from you. That being said how is preventing runs from being scored not important?
 
2013-08-14 11:32:50 AM  

DeWayne Mann: his salary is roughly as legitimate as anything used in Miggy's case.



using salary in a non-salary cap league is ridiculous.  might as well factor in draft round he was taken in.  "welp, he had 51HRs but he was taken in the 12th round, but the first round pick has only 49HRs, so......"
 
2013-08-14 11:33:10 AM  

wxboy: ongbok: Wouldn't be crazy if Migs wins the Triple Crown again this year?

Won't happen unless Chris Davis knocks off his HR hitting soon.


He is only 7 back and there is a lot of baseball left to be played.
 
2013-08-14 11:36:04 AM  
also, everyone was giving Trout grief last year for slumping during the end of the season.  (whether he actually was or not is another debate, he was getting grief for it).

Trout opened this season hitting .261 in April.  He's been turning it on late season.  He hit .379 in July and .361 so far post all-star game.

Cabrera, has hit .378 or better every month except july when he hit .288.  He is still extremely effective hitting the ball when he plays, but the usually resilient third baseman is starting to break down this season with his hip/ abdomen injury.
 
2013-08-14 11:36:59 AM  

SlothB77: What i think will happen.

My ballot is:

Trout
McCutchen

Scherzer
Kershaw


Hm. You didn't change the one that surprised me the most.

Why Scherzer?

thecpt: Yeah, I knew it was the arb year but I'm pretty sure AA has repeatedly told Colby he is the best thing evar. I have no clue what that fetches on the arb market.


Arb is basically "This player had a .275 average, 20 HR, 80 RBI this season. That's pretty similar to [insert crappy player] who got 8 mil in his final arb year." And then the player's rep says "Yes, but he had 40 SB and 100 R which is like [better player] who got 10 mil in his final arb year." And then the arbitrators decide on 8 or 10 mil with nothing else allowed.

It's very silly.

You're the jerk... jerk: Or we could just guess because of the nature of dWAR the leaders will be the two best defensive short stops in the game.


There actually aren't really any good defensive SSs in the AL. Iglesias will be, but he hasn't played it much. Hardy's pretty good. Alceides Escobar, maybe. But that's about it.

So it ends up being Machado, then Cain, Pedroia, Victorino (which is a shock) and Salvy Perez.
 
2013-08-14 11:37:57 AM  

SlothB77: Rex_Banner: And Cabrera is probably going to win in a landslide anyway, so.......

I had just assumed Chris Davis was the frontrunner for this year's AL MVP.

MVP:
AL: Chris Davis
NL: Paul Goldschmidt

Cy Young
AL: Max Scherzer
NL: Clayton Kershaw

My only concern is both Davis and Goldschmidt are on teams that right now would not make the playoffs, and so if making the playoffs is a factor for those who decide, those awards could go to McCutchen and Cabrera instead.


I don't see any way that Davis beats Cabrera. And honestly, he shouldn't. Cabrera has been better
 
2013-08-14 11:38:57 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: That's funny coming from you. That being said how is preventing runs from being scored not important?


Because that's not what dWAR is. That's vaguely what it used to be, but that's not what it is now.

What it is now is the addition of three somewhat related numbers and then dividing by ~10. Adding stuff together is fun, but it should probably serve some sort of purpose.
 
2013-08-14 11:41:40 AM  

thecpt: Anyways, I suspect miggy's duct taped hip isn't going to last another month. Should make these threads interesting soon.


Davis has been missing time as well, i think a hamstring issue.  So it is possible, if Miggy can get healthier than Davis, for him to catch up.  But both have been missing time.  I am surprised his injuries have not effected his productivity yet.
 
2013-08-14 11:44:43 AM  
Also, can Kuroda get some love for the AL CYA? I'm not saying he should win it, but it seems like he's waaaayyyyyyy too far under the radar
 
2013-08-14 11:46:13 AM  

Rex_Banner: Also, can Kuroda get some love for the AL CYA? I'm not saying he should win it, but it seems like he's waaaayyyyyyy too far under the radar


Leyland specifically picking Tillman over Kuroda for the ASG pretty well sealed Kuroda's fate.
 
2013-08-14 11:46:32 AM  

Rex_Banner: Also, can Kuroda get some love for the AL CYA? I'm not saying he should win it, but it seems like he's waaaayyyyyyy too far under the radar


He's got the The King Felix argument working for him so he should be in the running.
 
2013-08-14 11:46:56 AM  

DeWayne Mann: Why Scherzer?


17-1

In the same ballpark, facing the same conditions against a rival pitcher (except for the lineup, of course), he has lost only once this season.  Low WHIP, lots of K's.

I know he pitches in pitcher-friendly Comerica, versus, say, Joulys Chacin, who has a similar ERA and pitches at Coors and gets more run support than, say, Felix Hernandez.
 
2013-08-14 11:48:05 AM  

DeWayne Mann: Mid_mo_mad_man: That's funny coming from you. That being said how is preventing runs from being scored not important?

Because that's not what dWAR is. That's vaguely what it used to be, but that's not what it is now.

What it is now is the addition of three somewhat related numbers and then dividing by ~10. Adding stuff together is fun, but it should probably serve some sort of purpose.




If we thought all numbers had to serve a purpose half of the new "stats" would disappear. Miggy might have won the MVP but if I owned a team I would rather have Trout. MVP numbers at a rock bottom salary
 
2013-08-14 11:48:39 AM  

SlothB77: thecpt: Anyways, I suspect miggy's duct taped hip isn't going to last another month. Should make these threads interesting soon.

Davis has been missing time as well, i think a hamstring issue.  So it is possible, if Miggy can get healthier than Davis, for him to catch up.  But both have been missing time.  I am surprised his injuries have not effected his productivity yet.


I think it was Saturday, miggy jacked a change up 5in inside THE BATTER'S BOX. I'm thinking there is some luck involved, but it's obvious he is running station to station and both Jackson and hunter looked like they knew their job in front of him.
 
2013-08-14 11:49:04 AM  

Rex_Banner: Also, can Kuroda get some love for the AL CYA? I'm not saying he should win it, but it seems like he's waaaayyyyyyy too far under the radar


People are complaining about Yankees players being under the radar now?
 
2013-08-14 11:51:35 AM  


SlothB77:
People are complaining about Yankees players being under the radar now?
 
2013-08-14 11:52:39 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: DeWayne Mann: Mid_mo_mad_man: That's funny coming from you. That being said how is preventing runs from being scored not important?

Because that's not what dWAR is. That's vaguely what it used to be, but that's not what it is now.

What it is now is the addition of three somewhat related numbers and then dividing by ~10. Adding stuff together is fun, but it should probably serve some sort of purpose.

If we thought all numbers had to serve a purpose half of the new "stats" would disappear. Miggy might have won the MVP but if I owned a team I would rather have Trout. MVP numbers at a rock bottom salary


Yeah it's not going to be rock bottom for long. He is eligible for arbitration next season. That salary is about to jump through the roof.
 
2013-08-14 11:52:54 AM  

SlothB77: 17-1


guh

SlothB77: (except for the lineup, of course)


That seems like it should be more than just a parenthetical.

SlothB77: Low WHIP, lots of K's.


Ok, so, what about Darvish? He's not my personal choice, but his WHIP is very similar (1.00 vs Max's 0.91) and he has 26 more K, despite one fewer start.
 
2013-08-14 11:56:35 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: If we thought all numbers had to serve a purpose half of the new "stats" would disappear.


Most new stats absolutely have a purpose. You may reject that purpose, or you may not have done enough research into the stat to know that purpose, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

dWAR has absolutely no meaning. Or it has a meaning that is useless. I'm still somewhat undecided on that.
 
2013-08-14 11:57:35 AM  
Darvish is having a really good season, too.  Consider the 17-1 the tiebreaker between the two.  On strict WAR, Sale or Hernandez would get it.
 
2013-08-14 11:58:00 AM  
Sorry you had to wait until August to use this headline, subby. Lucky or you Trout finally started hitting
 
2013-08-14 12:01:23 PM  

SlothB77: Consider the 17-1 the tiebreaker between the two.


I just don't see why you'd even bother looking at any pitcher's record in the first place.
 
2013-08-14 12:01:30 PM  
Wild, wild stab: Cabrera and Trout.
 
2013-08-14 12:02:33 PM  

This Looks Fun: Wild, wild stab: Cabrera and Trout.


AWESOME! So glad I replaced Fielder with Trout. And I just saw on ESPN the crazy stats that Cabrera has right now. Funny to have a better season without winning Triple Crown.
 
2013-08-14 12:05:40 PM  

This Looks Fun: Funny to have a better season without winning Triple Crown.


From 2010 - 2013, Miguel Cabrera's worst hitting season was 2012, when he won the Triple Crown.
 
2013-08-14 12:09:53 PM  
Cool to see a few Brewers high up on the list -- too bad their pitching is rotten.
 
2013-08-14 12:12:43 PM  

DeWayne Mann: SlothB77: Consider the 17-1 the tiebreaker between the two.

I just don't see why you'd even bother looking at any pitcher's record in the first place.


Who wins head-to-head matchups are important.  Maybe one game scherzer is spotted an 8-0 lead, takes his foot off the gas and allows four runs, still gets the W.  Does that mean he is a worse pitcher?  Another game is a 1-0 pitcher's dual and he is able to outpitch the other guy.

That game that started at 4pm and the shadows slide over home plate, distracting the hitters - he was able to win that one.  That game when the weather was 40 degrees and the pitchers hands were cold - he was able to pitch in the cold better than his opponent.  That game when it was sweltering 105 degrees and he is sweating bullets - he was able to endure the heat better than the opposing pitcher too.  That game interrupted by a thunderstorm rain delay - he was able to bounce back after the wait better than the opposing pitcher.

In the same conditions against an opposing pitcher, 17 times he was better.  Only one time he was worse.
 
2013-08-14 12:14:52 PM  
userserve-ak.last.fm

Would like to know what it's good for
 
2013-08-14 12:15:22 PM  

SlothB77: DeWayne Mann: SlothB77: Consider the 17-1 the tiebreaker between the two.

I just don't see why you'd even bother looking at any pitcher's record in the first place.

Who wins head-to-head matchups are important.  Maybe one game scherzer is spotted an 8-0 lead, takes his foot off the gas and allows four runs, still gets the W.  Does that mean he is a worse pitcher?  Another game is a 1-0 pitcher's dual and he is able to outpitch the other guy.

That game that started at 4pm and the shadows slide over home plate, distracting the hitters - he was able to win that one.  That game when the weather was 40 degrees and the pitchers hands were cold - he was able to pitch in the cold better than his opponent.  That game when it was sweltering 105 degrees and he is sweating bullets - he was able to endure the heat better than the opposing pitcher too.  That game interrupted by a thunderstorm rain delay - he was able to bounce back after the wait better than the opposing pitcher.

In the same conditions against an opposing pitcher, 17 times he was better.  Only one time he was worse.


Yeah, that's a fun argument. Good thing both pitchers face the same batters
 
2013-08-14 12:17:19 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Someone on ESPN said last night that because Miggy is better this year than last year, but he was the MVP last year, that automatically means he's the MVP this year.


I like how you somehow expected rational and intelligent discourse from BSPN.
 
2013-08-14 12:23:08 PM  

SlothB77: Maybe one game scherzer is spotted an 8-0 lead, takes his foot off the gas and allows four runs, still gets the W. Does that mean he is a worse pitcher?


Ignoring that there's not really a lot of evidence for pitching to the score....

That says to me that Scherzer's offense gives him an advantage other pitchers don't get. Shouldn't we be looking to remove advantages like that?

SlothB77: Another game is a 1-0 pitcher's dual and he is able to outpitch the other guy.


In every game Scherzer has won this year, the Tigers have scored 3 or more runs. Additionally, there was a 2-1 game where Drew Smyly got the win.

All together, Scherzer has pitched in two games where the tigers scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 0-1. The team was 1-1.

Comparatively, Felix Hernandez has pitched in 10 games where the Mariners have scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 3-3. The team was 3-7.

SlothB77: In the same conditions


But as you said: it's not the same conditions. The other pitcher has to face Miguel Cabrera, Prince Fielder, Austin Jackson, etc. Scherzer doesn't.
 
2013-08-14 12:24:25 PM  

Uncle Pooky: DeWayne Mann: Someone on ESPN said last night that because Miggy is better this year than last year, but he was the MVP last year, that automatically means he's the MVP this year.

I like how you somehow expected rational and intelligent discourse from BSPN.


Oh, I don't. But I don't get MLB Network (and, actually, I wasn't even home, so I only had what the hotel offered) and I wanted to watch some highlights from the day.
 
2013-08-14 12:26:45 PM  
He has a significantly higher BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, and HRs, but is only .1 higher in WAR.

He's blowing everybody away in offensive categories, but is a notch ahead in WAR.
 
2013-08-14 12:28:21 PM  

ongbok: Mid_mo_mad_man: DeWayne Mann: Mid_mo_mad_man: That's funny coming from you. That being said how is preventing runs from being scored not important?

Because that's not what dWAR is. That's vaguely what it used to be, but that's not what it is now.

What it is now is the addition of three somewhat related numbers and then dividing by ~10. Adding stuff together is fun, but it should probably serve some sort of purpose.

If we thought all numbers had to serve a purpose half of the new "stats" would disappear. Miggy might have won the MVP but if I owned a team I would rather have Trout. MVP numbers at a rock bottom salary

Yeah it's not going to be rock bottom for long. He is eligible for arbitration next season. That salary is about to jump through the roof.




True. They will have to trade him away to save salary. Because they need that money for a over the hill slugger they need to sign.
 
2013-08-14 12:28:59 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Uncle Pooky: DeWayne Mann: Someone on ESPN said last night that because Miggy is better this year than last year, but he was the MVP last year, that automatically means he's the MVP this year.

I like how you somehow expected rational and intelligent discourse from BSPN.

Oh, I don't. But I don't get MLB Network (and, actually, I wasn't even home, so I only had what the hotel offered) and I wanted to watch some highlights from the day.


Every time I remind my parents I don't have access to quick pitch they have an expression similar to if I told them I didn't have running water.
 
2013-08-14 12:30:43 PM  

DeWayne Mann: That says to me that Scherzer's offense gives him an advantage other pitchers don't get. Shouldn't we be looking to remove advantages like that?


how many Yankee pitcher win totals were because they only had to pitch 7 innings, then Mariano iced it?
 
2013-08-14 12:34:18 PM  

rickythepenguin: how many Yankee pitcher win totals were because they only had to pitch 7 innings, then Mariano iced it?


I'm sorry, stat heads don't value closers at all, so if you replaced Rivera with a journeyman relief pitcher for his whole career, the Yankees only would win 3 or 4 fewer games.
 
2013-08-14 12:35:30 PM  

rickythepenguin: i was saying recently how it it is astounding how after the Puig vs Kennedy* beanball incident, the Snakes completely collapsed and that's about when Los Doyers began their, what, 39-8 tear. Kennedy isn't even a Snake. Traded him in-division, at that.


Racism from an Arizona fan - what are the odds?
 
2013-08-14 12:36:51 PM  

idesofmarch: Racism from an Arizona fan - what are the odds?


What race are 'hispanic' people that he's being racist against?
 
2013-08-14 12:37:53 PM  
The MVP should only be given to triple crown winners on playoff teams who didn't slump at the end of the season. In years where these conditions are not met, there should be no MVP.
 
2013-08-14 12:39:59 PM  

MugzyBrown: He has a significantly higher BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, and HRs, but is only .1 higher in WAR.

He's blowing everybody away in offensive categories, but is a notch ahead in WAR.


....yep? Not sure what point you're trying to make.

rickythepenguin: how many Yankee pitcher win totals were because they only had to pitch 7 innings, then Mariano iced it?


Don't know; don't care.

MugzyBrown: I'm sorry, stat heads don't value closers at all, so if you replaced Rivera with a journeyman relief pitcher for his whole career, the Yankees only would win 3 or 4 fewer games.


Mo's career fWAR is nearly 40, but yeah, totally. 3 or 4 wins. You totally understand what 'stat heads' think.
 
2013-08-14 12:40:02 PM  

MugzyBrown: idesofmarch: Racism from an Arizona fan - what are the odds?

What race are 'hispanic' people that he's being racist against?


He's being racist against that city the angels. He probably supports trout too.
 
2013-08-14 12:40:57 PM  

DeWayne Mann: In every game Scherzer has won this year, the Tigers have scored 3 or more runs. Additionally, there was a 2-1 game where Drew Smyly got the win.

All together, Scherzer has pitched in two games where the tigers scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 0-1. The team was 1-1.

Comparatively, Felix Hernandez has pitched in 10 games where the Mariners have scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 3-3. The team was 3-7.


That 2-1 game that Smyly won.  Take a look at who Scherzer's opposing pitcher was.  And who had the better stat line.
 
2013-08-14 12:41:15 PM  

rcf1105: The MVP should only be given to triple crown winners on playoff teams who didn't slump at the end of the season. In years where these conditions are not met, there should be no MVP.




Only players from Boston, NYY, or StL should be considered for awards. I've learned that from fark baseball threads.
 
2013-08-14 12:41:50 PM  

MugzyBrown: 'm sorry, stat heads don't value closers at all, so if you replaced Rivera with a journeyman relief pitcher for his whole career, the Yankees only would win 3 or 4 fewer games.


MLB threads get so derpy I don't know if you're being facetious or fo shizz.


idesofmarch: Racism from an Arizona fan - what are the odds?


The Los Angeles Dodgers have trademarked the phrase "Los Doyers," a popular Hispanic nickname for the Boys in Blue. The team features "Los Doyers" T-shirts in their souvenir shops, which is a problem for local vendors who have been selling the name for years. Storeowners have received cease and desist letters from the Dodgers.

i'm sorry, i couldn't quite hear you. can you repeat that?
 
2013-08-14 12:42:12 PM  

rickythepenguin: SlothB77: Goldschmidt are on teams that right now would not make the playoff


i was saying recently how it it is astounding how after the Puig vs Kennedy* beanball incident, the Snakes completely collapsed and that's about when Los Doyers began their, what, 39-8 tear.  Kennedy isn't even a Snake.  Traded him in-division, at that.

Wondering what happens to Gibby if the Snakes don't make the playoffs.  Last year we finished 3rd, barely at .500.  a 5.5 game lead circa the ASG has now become a 7.5 deficit with about 40 games left.  yeah, NL West title in 2011, but nothing came of it (first round loss).  No playoffs in 2012.  Probably no playoffs, and a pretty incredible collapse in the second half in 2013.  I wonder how safe Gibby is if the Snakes complete the gag job.


*still mad that my headline of like, "Kennedy incites Bay of Puigs incident" headline wasn't greenlit


Maybe the DBacks should stop trading any talent that dares to look at coaches or veterans funny.
 
2013-08-14 12:43:21 PM  

SlothB77: That 2-1 game that Smyly won. Take a look at who Scherzer's opposing pitcher was. And who had the better stat line.


Thanks for making my point for me.
 
2013-08-14 12:45:14 PM  

Dafatone: Maybe the DBacks should stop trading any talent that dares to look at coaches or veterans funny.



you know something i don't....kennedy did that?

i know the team got sick of that pitcher we sent to Cleveland, because he and his dad thougth they knew what was best, and TREVOR BAUER (just flashed on the name) rubbed some of the vets the wrong way.

or Upton, but he was just inconsistent and not worth the money.

ehh.  who cares.
 
2013-08-14 12:47:51 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Mo's career fWAR is nearly 40, but yeah, totally. 3 or 4 wins. You totally understand what 'stat heads' think.


According to baseball reference, MO's average WAR for his career is 3.  If you look at his peek it's typically about 3.5 - 4.5 per season.

Thus he is giving the Yankees 3-4 wins per season than they would have had if they had just used Scott Procter as their 9th inning guy.
 
2013-08-14 12:48:04 PM  

idesofmarch: Racism from an Arizona fan - what are the odds?



and also, when i'm in LA or SoCal for that matter - hell, parts of Phoenix - muchos personas hablar a la espanol to me.  I ain't exactly blonde haired and blue eyed, if you catch my drift.

¡MUY COMICO!
 
2013-08-14 12:49:36 PM  

MugzyBrown: so if you replaced Rivera with a journeyman relief pitcher for his whole career, the Yankees only would win 3 or 4 fewer games.


MugzyBrown: According to baseball reference, MO's average WAR for his career is 3. If you look at his peek it's typically about 3.5 - 4.5 per season.


DeWayne Mann: Thanks for making my point for me.

 
2013-08-14 12:51:19 PM  

DeWayne Mann: SlothB77: That 2-1 game that Smyly won. Take a look at who Scherzer's opposing pitcher was. And who had the better stat line.

Thanks for making my point for me.


It does appear, head-to-head King Felix was able to outpitch Scherzer.

Also, Scherzer has a total of 2 starts against teams with a .570 winning percentage or better.
 
2013-08-14 12:51:38 PM  

WTF Indeed: the Angels could be 10 games under .500 with or without Trout.


Well, technically, if WAR is to be believed, they would be closer to 16 games under .500 without him.
 
2013-08-14 12:54:33 PM  

SlothB77: Also, Scherzer has a total of 2 starts against teams with a .570 winning percentage or better.


DeWayne Mann: Thanks for making my point for me.


Look, wins made some sense for a pitcher in 1870. Most teams had 2 starting pitchers and no relievers. It's natural to look at what a team did when one guy was starting versus when the other guy was.

But even then, it didn't make much sense to compare players on different teams. And it makes far less sense now.
 
2013-08-14 12:55:46 PM  

rickythepenguin: Dafatone: Maybe the DBacks should stop trading any talent that dares to look at coaches or veterans funny.


you know something i don't....kennedy did that?

i know the team got sick of that pitcher we sent to Cleveland, because he and his dad thougth they knew what was best, and TREVOR BAUER (just flashed on the name) rubbed some of the vets the wrong way.

or Upton, but he was just inconsistent and not worth the money.

ehh.  who cares.


I'm just super pissed that the Braves got Upton for very little.  Well, Upton AND Chris Johnson, who even before this season was a pretty competent bat for a throw-in.

As to Bauer, I didn't like how that whole situation went down, and I thought Miguel Montero came off as REALLY thin skinned and whiny.  Bauer does need to adjust to be successful, and he's not having a particularly great year in AAA.  But he's 22, and was 21 last year, and bashing a teammate for not listening to advice after 3 starts at age 21 seems mean.

Upton's having a strange and inconsistent year, and probably isn't living up to his contract, but he's still only 25, and the Diamondbacks need outfield help.  Certainly, that trade's looking iffy right now, though we won't know until we see what some of the prospects involved do (and what Upton does down the road.)  Any time a team makes it clear that they're going to trade a guy, they shoot their negotiating position in the foot.  Once Upton turned down going to Seattle (which if I remember was for a huge package,) the DBacks should have packed up and gone home and tried midseason or next year.
 
2013-08-14 12:58:37 PM  

Dafatone: As to Bauer, I didn't like how that whole situation went down


I just don't understand why they drafted him in the first place.
 
2013-08-14 01:02:27 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Dafatone: As to Bauer, I didn't like how that whole situation went down

I just don't understand why they drafted him in the first place.


Was his reputation that well known at draft time?  Or is it a question of why did he go that high?

Knowing a guy has an attitude problem that won't sit well with your team and then drafting him anyway and spending his tenure in the minors worrying about that attitude problem is the sort of thing a lot of teams would do.
 
2013-08-14 01:04:23 PM  

Dafatone: that trade's looking iffy right now


yeah.....not being a huge fan (i've only been to two games this year despite living about 15 minutes from the park) I don't remember who we got other than Prado, but I think it was a 3 for 1 deal.  Prado has been OK.  flashes of above average talent then he turns into a JAG for like, 3 weeks.  he doesn't even start every day.  I can't say that the trade has really paid off for either team.  that delgado kid has been getting innings lately but i don't think he's really tearing it up.

the trade wil have to be evaluated (as with any trade) after a year or two.
 
2013-08-14 01:06:05 PM  

Dafatone: Was his reputation that well known at draft time?


Absolutely. Bauer said that if a team didn't want to buy into what he was doing (which is the same thing he's doing now), they shouldn't draft him.

The D-backs drafted him anyway, then tried to change him. In what way does that make sense?
 
2013-08-14 01:06:14 PM  

Dafatone: Was his reputation that well known at draft time? Or is it a question of why did he go that high?


i don't remember any attitude issues when we took him.   he just didn't adjust to the organization as well or as quickly as they hoped.  the relationship soured and that's why he's not here.  but i don't remeber any "draft day" issues.  who knows.
 
2013-08-14 01:07:25 PM  

rickythepenguin: I don't remember who we got other than Prado, but I think it was a 3 for 1 deal.


I'm pretty sure you got Prado and 4 crap pitchers. Delgado lost the 5th starter spot and made himself expendable. And, obviously, the Braves still have Minor, Beachy, and Alex Wood.

rickythepenguin: I can't say that the trade has really paid off for either team.


Well, look at it this way...given how the players have performed this year...I'm thinking the Braves make the same trade in a heart beat while the Diamondbacks balk at the idea.
 
2013-08-14 01:08:06 PM  

rickythepenguin: idesofmarch: Racism from an Arizona fan - what are the odds?

The Los Angeles Dodgers have trademarked the phrase "Los Doyers," a popular Hispanic nickname for the Boys in Blue. The team features "Los Doyers" T-shirts in their souvenir shops, which is a problem for local vendors who have been selling the name for years. Storeowners have received cease and desist letters from the Dodgers.

i'm sorry, i couldn't quite hear you. can you repeat that?


Well, I was unaware of that.  I don't think the Yankees have done anything like that, yet I do hear 'Los Yanquis' in these threads from the occasional racist/Yankee hater.  Plus, Arizona is a massively, institutionally racist state, so I just made the logical leap.  Carry on.
 
2013-08-14 01:08:50 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Absolutely. Bauer said that if a team didn't want to buy into what he was doing (which is the same thing he's doing now), they shouldn't draft him.


rickythepenguin: i don't remember any attitude issues when we took him


no shiat?  i don't remember that. and not in a "RAWR, you're wrong, DeWayne Mann, RAWRRR" way, i just don't remember that.  when we took him there were stories about him not wanting to change his routine (the dopey foulpole-to-foulpole toss routine, the rubber band stretches) but i don't remember anythign pre-draft.
 
2013-08-14 01:12:04 PM  

rickythepenguin: I don't remember who we got other than Prado, but I think it was a 3 for 1 deal.


Randall Delgado, Prado, and three prospects:

Zeke Spruill, who has pitched in a few games for the D-backs this year but hasn't been good. He doesn't strike out anyone, which is probably a bad sign.

Nick Ahmed, who better play good defense because he sure can't hit.

Brandon Drury, who has already had to repeat two minor league levels. He is hitting well this year, though.

In exchange, the D-backs traded Upton & Chris Johnson.

rickythepenguin: the trade wil have to be evaluated (as with any trade) after a year or two.


No, that is exactly when you shouldn't evaluate a trade. Way too much can happen in that amount of time. If Justin Upton & Chris Johnson collide while attempting to catch a fly ball and both suffer career ending concussions, do the D-backs automatically win?
 
2013-08-14 01:16:38 PM  

bulldg4life: rickythepenguin: I can't say that the trade has really paid off for either team.

Well, look at it this way...given how the players have performed this year...I'm thinking the Braves make the same trade in a heart beat while the Diamondbacks balk at the idea.


Upton's actually put together a pretty meh year, all in all.  That being said, yeah, they do.  Especially since Prado got paid about as much as Upton makes anyway.
 
2013-08-14 01:17:53 PM  

rickythepenguin: no shiat? i don't remember that. and not in a "RAWR, you're wrong, DeWayne Mann, RAWRRR" way, i just don't remember that. when we took him there were stories about him not wanting to change his routine (the dopey foulpole-to-foulpole toss routine, the rubber band stretches) but i don't remember anythign pre-draft.


Here's a really good article in SI

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1189170/i nd ex.htm

Before this year's draft, he arranged face-to-face meetings with representatives from the clubs interested in him. He wanted to explain the specifics of his routine and the rationale behind it. He was willing to sacrifice a better slot in the draft-and therefore potentially accept a lower signing bonus-to be with an organization that trusted him.

"I told them all: 'This is what I do, it's what I believe in, and if you let me stick with it, I'll pitch in the major leagues for 20 years,'" Bauer says. "Some were open. Some weren't. But they needed to know what they were getting into."
 
2013-08-14 01:20:07 PM  

Dafatone: Upton's actually put together a pretty meh year, all in all.


Not sure that's how I'd describe it.
 
2013-08-14 01:23:04 PM  

>No, that is exactly when you shouldn't evaluate a trade. Way too much can happen in that amount of time. If Justin Upton & Chris Johnson collide while attempting to catch a fly ball and both suffer career ending concussions, do the D-backs automatically win?



When you grade a trade depends on what you were trying to attempt. If I'm trying to boost my team at the deadline and I trade for a impact player I judge it that year. If I trade a hot commodity for prospects you can't judge it for a few years.
 
2013-08-14 01:23:30 PM  

Dafatone: Upton's actually put together a pretty meh year, all in all.


Three weeks of "holy shiat this is f*cking awesome, it's the second coming of Ruthgherigmaysmantle"
And three months of "holy shiat we traded for Jeff Francoeur"
 
2013-08-14 01:24:00 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Dafatone: Upton's actually put together a pretty meh year, all in all.

Not sure that's how I'd describe it.


rWAR of 1.9.  fWAR of 2.9.  One is alright, one is good.  Let's take the 2.9.

That's certainly better than "meh."  But does consistency matter at all?  Usually, I lean towards no, but Upton's done almost all* of his damage in April.  Since then, he's put together three bad months (well, two bad and one alright.)  I do think being bad for more than you're good is a problem.

*he's also been a monster in August, which comes close to defeating everything I'm saying.
 
2013-08-14 01:25:42 PM  

DeWayne Mann: In exchange, the D-backs traded Upton & Chris Johnson.


wow, way more than i thought.  i thougth that just 3 for 1.

snakes are pissing me off.  total collapse after the fight. like i said, gibby is coaching in a "what have you done for me lately?" league and the trades aren't paying off.  Goldy is obviously a bright spot and there has been massive roster turnover, but....the bullpen is just bad (we either lead the league or are at the top in blown saves) which isn't on Gibby, but.....as down as the West is, this wsa ripe for the taking, and we're letting it go.
 
2013-08-14 01:28:12 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: You're the jerk... jerk: What is this, rWAR? All real nerds use fWAR which has the same two in the opposite order.

It is a little easier for me to try to defend Miggy as MVP this year but probably still going to have to say trout deserves it.

/Guess we will just have to be happy with a world series win


Or use dwar and see what may surpise some people on who's leading in that.


evbdn.eventbrite.com
The only stat worth using in any discussion about any topic.
 
2013-08-14 01:28:18 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Before this year's draft, he arranged face-to-face meetings with representatives from the clubs interested in him. He wanted to explain the specifics of his routine and the rationale behind it. He was willing to sacrifice a better slot in the draft-and therefore potentially accept a lower signing bonus-to be with an organization that trusted him.



wow, good find. i don't remember any of that.  thanks.
 
2013-08-14 01:28:22 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: I trade for a impact player I judge it that year.


John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander is considered one of the most lopsided trades in history. You think the Tigers actually won it?

Mid_mo_mad_man: If I trade a hot commodity for prospects you can't judge it for a few years.


So, again, if one of the prospects gets injured down the line, that automatically means the team "lost" the trade?
 
2013-08-14 01:37:18 PM  

Dafatone: Since then, he's put together three bad months (well, two bad and one alright.) I do think being bad for more than you're good is a problem.


Since April 28, the day after he hit his last April HR, he'shiat .262/.352/.412, which is eerily similar to his .280/.355/.430 from last year. I don't think last year was a meh season.

rickythepenguin: wow, good find. i don't remember any of that. thanks.


I'm not saying what Bauer (and Dylan Bundy, with the Orioles) is doing is right. I do think it's very, very interesting, and I'm excited to see if it can work. But a team has to buy into it long-term. The D-backs gave him, what, a year? 2? And then they're like "Well, we're done with this."

I don't get it at all. It's not like they changed GMs.
 
2013-08-14 01:40:38 PM  
How does Wright have that high of a WAR?
 
2013-08-14 01:43:07 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Mid_mo_mad_man: I trade for a impact player I judge it that year.

John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander is considered one of the most lopsided trades in history. You think the Tigers actually won it?

Never said that. I was thinking more if I sell the farm for a guy who is a fa at the end of the season I better win this year or it's a bust.

Mid_mo_mad_man: If I trade a hot commodity for prospects you can't judge it for a few years.

So, again, if one of the prospects gets injured down the line, that automatically means the team "lost" the trade?


It depends. Trading for prospects is always rolling the dice. Again it depends on each teams goals. Sometimes both win sometimes both lose
 
2013-08-14 01:47:37 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: Never said that. I was thinking more if I sell the farm for a guy who is a fa at the end of the season I better win this year or it's a bust.


Alexander pitched great for the Tigers down the stretch that year AND had two more years with the team.

So it shouldn't matter who they gave up, right? They went to the playoffs anyway.
 
2013-08-14 01:48:32 PM  

WTF Indeed: Rex_Banner: Also, can Kuroda get some love for the AL CYA? I'm not saying he should win it, but it seems like he's waaaayyyyyyy too far under the radar

He's got the The King Felix argument working for him so he should be in the running.


You know who has the King Felix argument working for him even more?  King Felix.
 
2013-08-14 01:52:51 PM  

rickythepenguin: So if Miggy wins a second consecutive MVP, does that make him........*dons sunglasses*.....Multiple Miggs YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


+1 for the pun/reference but...
No no no, Starling.  You were doing so well with the Miggs comment.
-1 for the tired "dons sunglasses" meme.
 
2013-08-14 01:54:08 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Mid_mo_mad_man: Never said that. I was thinking more if I sell the farm for a guy who is a fa at the end of the season I better win this year or it's a bust.

Alexander pitched great for the Tigers down the stretch that year AND had two more years with the team.

So it shouldn't matter who they gave up, right? They went to the playoffs anyway.




If they win a WS that year and that was thier goal yes. More one team has said fark the future we are going to win now.
 
2013-08-14 01:58:46 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: If they win a WS that year and that was thier goal yes


No, they lost in the CS.

So the trade was bad, because the playoffs are a crap shoot?

Mid_mo_mad_man: More one team has said fark the future we are going to win now.


But not all of them. Doesn't that sort of say something?

I mean, I guarantee the Red Sox could've gotten Cliff Lee this year in exchange for Bogaerts, Ranaudo & JBJ. But they didn't. Seems pretty dumb of them, right? Is "win the WS this year" not their goal?
 
2013-08-14 02:01:18 PM  
Can V-Mart play third better than gimpy Cabrera? It would be nice to DH Cabrera for a week or so.
 
2013-08-14 02:02:59 PM  

rickythepenguin: WTF Indeed: with or without Trout.


Sleight of hand, and twist of fate
On a 3-2 count he makes me wait
And I'll wait, cos' I'm due

Through the 8th we reached the 'pen
Righty with a delivery like Robb Nen
And I'll wait, cos' I'm due

And I fouled one away
And I fouled one away
And again
And again

With or without Trout, oh oh
With or without Trout
We can't win, with or without Trout


... and to think, they made an album called WAR.  The pieces are slowly coming together.
 
2013-08-14 02:04:03 PM  

robertus: Mid_mo_mad_man: You're the jerk... jerk: What is this, rWAR? All real nerds use fWAR which has the same two in the opposite order.

It is a little easier for me to try to defend Miggy as MVP this year but probably still going to have to say trout deserves it.

/Guess we will just have to be happy with a world series win


Or use dwar and see what may surpise some people on who's leading in that.

[evbdn.eventbrite.com image 305x225]
The only stat worth using in any discussion about any topic.


WAR, hooh.  Good god, ya'll.  What is it good for?  Absolutely nothin'!
 
2013-08-14 02:06:21 PM  

rickythepenguin: So if Miggy wins a second consecutive MVP, does that make him........*dons sunglasses*.....Multiple Miggs YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


www.wearysloth.com
Approves
 
2013-08-14 02:10:53 PM  

violentsalvation: Can V-Mart play third better than gimpy Cabrera? It would be nice to DH Cabrera for a week or so.


Prince has been slumping a lot lately.  Maybe he could use a few days off to clear his head.  Put Martinez at 1st to let Cabrera DH.

The Tigers have a series at the Mets next weekend, I'd rather sit Prince than Martinez for that.  The only reason not to is the really dumb reason of keeping Prince's games-played streak alive.
 
2013-08-14 02:23:19 PM  

DeWayne Mann: John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander is considered one of the most lopsided trades in history.


I'll see that and raise you Jeff Bagwell for Larry Young!
 
2013-08-14 02:32:46 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Rex_Banner: WTF Indeed: "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP"

Who the hell said this? Because it's stupid

I may have said that as a way of demonstrating why many similar pro-Miggy arguments were stupid.


Wait, aren't you the guy who put together a starting lineup of players from any team in the league and couldn't find a spot for Miguel Cabrerra on it at all?
 
2013-08-14 02:38:23 PM  

DeWayne Mann: WTF Indeed: First of all, that's the worst argument for someone in the history of arguments

Yes, that's what I spent a week trying to explain last year. Thanks for agreeing with me.

WTF Indeed: You're adding another number to your argument instead of just relying solely on WAR.

Since you're confused, let me break this down for you:

Most of the pro-Trout guys thought Trout was the MVP because he was a far superior player. WAR is just one way of demonstrating that.

Most of the pro-Cabrera guys thought he was the MVP because of other things: playoffs, triple crown, him moving to third to make room for Fielder, etc.

I'm fully convinced Trout was better, but if you aren't, then I HAVE to use "other things" to make my case to you. Thus, his salary is roughly as legitimate as anything used in Miggy's case.


Honestly, you're still kicking that Cabrera straw man?  People that thought Cabrera deserved it thought that he was a far superior player -- that defense is over rated, that performance later in the year when the opponents were trying harder was more important than performance earlier in the year, and performance in more critical situations was more important than performance in other in-game situations.
 
2013-08-14 02:38:52 PM  

Zulu_as_Kono: DeWayne Mann: John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander is considered one of the most lopsided trades in history.

I'll see that and raise you Jeff Bagwell for Larry Young!


I don't think that's a person.

meanmutton: Wait, aren't you the guy who put together a starting lineup of players from any team in the league and couldn't find a spot for Miguel Cabrerra on it at all?


No, I'm the guy who said Miggy was my first choice for DH, but I wasn't sure if having a DH made sense in context.
 
2013-08-14 02:41:49 PM  

meanmutton: People that thought Cabrera deserved it thought that he was a far superior player


No, you thought he was a far superior HITTER. Here's how I can demonstrate this:

meanmutton: defense is over rated


Welp, that was easy.

meanmutton: that performance later in the year when the opponents were trying harder was more important than performance earlier in the year


That would be "other things" (and also wrong)

meanmutton: performance in more critical situations was more important than performance in other in-game situations.


That would be "other things" (and also wrong)
 
2013-08-14 02:43:50 PM  

Zulu_as_Kono: DeWayne Mann: John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander is considered one of the most lopsided trades in history.

I'll see that and raise you Jeff Bagwell for Larry Young!


Rental of Bartolo Colon for Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, and Brandon Phillips.

Nothing else comes close.  Though AJ Pierzynski for Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano, and Boof Bonser comes close to coming close.

And Jim Fregosi for Nolan Ryan, for good measure.
 
2013-08-14 02:44:04 PM  

wxboy: violentsalvation: Can V-Mart play third better than gimpy Cabrera? It would be nice to DH Cabrera for a week or so.

Prince has been slumping a lot lately.  Maybe he could use a few days off to clear his head.  Put Martinez at 1st to let Cabrera DH.

The Tigers have a series at the Mets next weekend, I'd rather sit Prince than Martinez for that.  The only reason not to is the really dumb reason of keeping Prince's games-played streak alive.


Don Kelly to 3rd?
 
2013-08-14 02:45:17 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Dafatone: Since then, he's put together three bad months (well, two bad and one alright.) I do think being bad for more than you're good is a problem.

Since April 28, the day after he hit his last April HR, he'shiat .262/.352/.412, which is eerily similar to his .280/.355/.430 from last year. I don't think last year was a meh season.


I suppose I'm comparing him to expectations rather than your average dude.  Plus, I'm letting his ridiculously high fantasy baseball value factor in to those "expectations."
 
2013-08-14 02:54:31 PM  

Zulu_as_Kono: DeWayne Mann: John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander is considered one of the most lopsided trades in history.

I'll see that and raise you Jeff Bagwell for Larry Young!


Jeff Bagwell for someone whose name nobody remembers!

/it's Larry Andersen
//I guess that kind of proves your point, doesn't it?
 
2013-08-14 03:04:15 PM  
oh look Cabrera just hit a three-run home run to tie the game.
 
2013-08-14 03:06:38 PM  
DeWayne Mann:

From lurking baseball threads, should I ever decide to step in, I'll tread lightly when you're around if there's a statistical argument to be had. You are far too good of a study.
 
2013-08-14 03:12:42 PM  

This Looks Fun: DeWayne Mann:

From lurking baseball threads, should I ever decide to step in, I'll tread lightly when you're around if there's a statistical argument to be had. You are far too good of a study.


Heh, thanks.

To me, stats are just tools. You can't do everything with them, but you can do a heck of a lot. However, you need to use the right tools for the job....and a lot of people choose poorly.

Statistically, Trout & Cabrera are really interesting to compare this year. It's still way too early to say who has been better, and it could very easily end up being Miggy by the end of the year.

But last year, it wasn't even close. The only way to make it look close was by using incorrect tools. And that's just sort of sad.
 
2013-08-14 03:53:29 PM  

DeWayne Mann: But last year, it wasn't even close. The only way to make it look close was by using incorrect tools. And that's just sort of sad.


I agree that last year's data definitely show that Trout was handily the Most Valuable. But with a vote, I would have voted Miggy. (Sorry).
 
2013-08-14 03:58:57 PM  

This Looks Fun: DeWayne Mann: But last year, it wasn't even close. The only way to make it look close was by using incorrect tools. And that's just sort of sad.

I agree that last year's data definitely show that Trout was handily the Most Valuable. But with a vote, I would have voted Miggy. (Sorry).


Well, if someone thinks "Most Valuable" and "Best" are not necessarily the same thing, fine.

But at that point, you get so deep into the realm of subjective opinions that I don't even see the point in arguing about it. To me, there's no real difference between "Miguel Cabrera should be MVP because he won the Triple Crown on a Playoff Team" and "Derek Jeter should be MVP because he has a dreamy smile."
 
2013-08-14 04:08:13 PM  

DeWayne Mann: To me, there's no real difference between "Miguel Cabrera should be MVP because he won the Triple Crown on a Playoff Team" and "Derek Jeter should be MVP because he has a dreamy smile."


I disagree. People want to give a guy an award for being historically impressive. If a guy beats the hit streak and bats .245 for the season, I think there would be a few MVP votes his way, but only because he's not going to win a championship, he's probably not going to the Hall, and they think that his being on a list in an Almanac just isn't enough. I think it would be simpler if they had an MVP award and an "Impressive Milestone" award. That way, you could give credit to the guy that literally helped his team the most and one to the guy who made an historically significant contribution. Anyway, sorry to rehash a dead argument.
 
2013-08-14 04:11:57 PM  

This Looks Fun: People want to give a guy an award for being historically impressive


So my question now (which is similar to my question then) would be: why wasn't the Triple Crown an automatic MVP before this? Is it JUST the fact that it hasn't happened in awhile?


(A partial answer to this question involves the idea that the MVP should be on a playoff team, even if said team has a worse record than a non-playoff team. Which is something else that I don't quite get)
 
2013-08-14 04:30:19 PM  

DeWayne Mann: So my question now (which is similar to my question then) would be: why wasn't the Triple Crown an automatic MVP before this? Is it JUST the fact that it hasn't happened in awhile?

(A partial answer to this question involves the idea that the MVP should be on a playoff team, even if said team has a worse record than a non-playoff team. Which is something else that I don't quite get)


(IMO) BECAUSE of the sabermetric movement. It's a way for people to say "See?! This guy won the real stats categories. That's why we call it the Triple Crown. It's because these are the only stats that matter." It was a thumb in the eye of progress. Because change is scary. And yes, also because it hasn't happened in a while.

The playoff team argument is just something that seems to be accepted. I've never really understood it myself.

Mathematically, it would seem you could use a player's WAR and assign the MVP without a vote if you really wanted to. And it would be fine I think.
 
2013-08-14 04:35:57 PM  

This Looks Fun: (IMO) BECAUSE of the sabermetric movement. It's a way for people to say "See?! This guy won the real stats categories. That's why we call it the Triple Crown. It's because these are the only stats that matter." It was a thumb in the eye of progress. Because change is scary.


Good luck getting people to admit that.

This Looks Fun: And yes, also because it hasn't happened in a while.


Makes me wonder: if this season played out EXACTLY the same way as last year (which is impossible, of course, for so many reasons, but it's fun to pretend), would Miggy get more, fewer, or the same number of votes?

This Looks Fun: The playoff team argument is just something that seems to be accepted. I've never really understood it myself.


Sort of like wins, from above, it sort of made sense back when there was just ONE playoff team in each league. But the Tigers making the playoffs despite having a worse record than the Angels (who didn't) should demonstrate why it's silly now.

This Looks Fun: Mathematically, it would seem you could use a player's WAR and assign the MVP without a vote if you really wanted to. And it would be fine I think.


I actually DON'T think that's fine. Even ignoring the question of "which WAR", we've still got a lot of issues. As a general rule of thumb, if two players are within roughly 0.5 WAR of each other, they're probably equally good.

But when one guy is like 3 WAR better, well....that's different.
 
2013-08-14 04:49:21 PM  

This Looks Fun: DeWayne Mann: But last year, it wasn't even close. The only way to make it look close was by using incorrect tools. And that's just sort of sad.

I agree that last year's data definitely show that Trout was handily the Most Valuable. But with a vote, I would have voted Miggy. (Sorry).


Triple Crown = Insta-MVP

There really is no argument to the contrary.
 
2013-08-14 04:53:30 PM  

The Drawing Board: This Looks Fun: DeWayne Mann: But last year, it wasn't even close. The only way to make it look close was by using incorrect tools. And that's just sort of sad.

I agree that last year's data definitely show that Trout was handily the Most Valuable. But with a vote, I would have voted Miggy. (Sorry).

Triple Crown = Insta-MVP

There really is no argument to the contrary.


...except all the times a guy won the triple crown and didn't win the MVP.
 
2013-08-14 04:57:28 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Makes me wonder: if this season played out EXACTLY the same way as last year (which is impossible, of course, for so many reasons, but it's fun to pretend), would Miggy get more, fewer, or the same number of votes?


Fewer. I am 100% sure of it. As long as he got the MVP the year before. I think the passion from the "Take that, Math!" would have worn off and we would come to our senses.

DeWayne Mann: Sort of like wins, from above, it sort of made sense back when there was just ONE playoff team in each league.


I still don't buy it. (Whiny Twins fan warning) When the Yankees buy all of the best players and make the playoffs, no ONE player on that team is more Valuable to the Yankees than the best player on a team full of Replacement Players.
 
2013-08-14 04:58:34 PM  

The Drawing Board: Triple Crown = Insta-MVP

There really is no argument to the contrary.



Except for all the arguments to the contrary, you mean?

1933: Chuck Klein wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting
1934: Lou Gehrig wins the Triple Crown, comes in 5th in MVP voting.
1942: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.
1947: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.

Insta-MVP, indeed.
 
2013-08-14 05:03:27 PM  

Dafatone: ...except all the times a guy won the triple crown and didn't win the MVP.


NO ARGUMENT

This Looks Fun: Fewer. I am 100% sure of it. As long as he got the MVP the year before. I think the passion from the "Take that, Math!" would have worn off and we would come to our senses.


See, this is sort of what I first thought. But then I remembered this:

DeWayne Mann: Someone on ESPN said last night that because Miggy is better this year than last year, but he was the MVP last year, that automatically means he's the MVP this year.


I think the "He won MVP last year and was just as good this year, so he's CLEARLY the MVP again" thing would give him the same number of votes, if not more.

(Then again, it's a different group of voters, so that throws another wrinkle into play).

This Looks Fun: When the Yankees buy all of the best players and make the playoffs, no ONE player on that team is more Valuable to the Yankees than the best player on a team full of Replacement Players.


Well, a TEAM of replacement guys probably won't have anyone particularly valuable.

But, yes, the idea that a guy can only be valuable if his teammates are as well is sort of odd.
 
2013-08-14 05:03:32 PM  

This Looks Fun: I still don't buy it. (Whiny Twins fan warning) When the Yankees buy all of the best players and make the playoffs, no ONE player on that team is more Valuable to the Yankees than the best player on a team full of Replacement Players.


If the Yankees buy all of the best players, how come none of them are even being considered for MVP?

/self-contradictory whining is contradictory
 
2013-08-14 05:11:14 PM  

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Triple Crown = Insta-MVP

There really is no argument to the contrary.


Except for all the arguments to the contrary, you mean?

1933: Chuck Klein wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting
1934: Lou Gehrig wins the Triple Crown, comes in 5th in MVP voting.
1942: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.
1947: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.

Insta-MVP, indeed.


I didn't come here to talk about the past!
 
2013-08-14 05:12:23 PM  

The Drawing Board: DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Triple Crown = Insta-MVP

There really is no argument to the contrary.


Except for all the arguments to the contrary, you mean?

1933: Chuck Klein wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting
1934: Lou Gehrig wins the Triple Crown, comes in 5th in MVP voting.
1942: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.
1947: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.

Insta-MVP, indeed.

I didn't come here to talk about the past!


Few things are more "the past" then Triple Crowns.
 
2013-08-14 05:15:58 PM  
WAR is the most over rated stat in baseball
 
2013-08-14 05:23:58 PM  

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Triple Crown = Insta-MVP

There really is no argument to the contrary.


Except for all the arguments to the contrary, you mean?

1933: Chuck Klein wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting
1934: Lou Gehrig wins the Triple Crown, comes in 5th in MVP voting.
1942: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.
1947: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.

Insta-MVP, indeed.

I didn't come here to talk about the past!

Few things are more "the past" then Triple Crowns.



True dat.  Up until last season there hadn't been a Triple Crown winner in nearly 50 years but someone leads the league in WAR every year.
 
2013-08-14 05:25:20 PM  

The Drawing Board: someone leads the league in WAR every year.


Sometimes multiple people!
 
2013-08-14 05:33:16 PM  

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: someone leads the league in WAR every year.

Sometimes multiple people!


Never been a tie for the Triple Crown!

Can the decimal in the WAR stat be extended out?
 
2013-08-14 05:36:40 PM  

The Drawing Board: Can the decimal in the WAR stat be extended out?


Oh sure. You never know when that extra 3 thousandths of a run might be the difference between winning the division and last place.
 
2013-08-14 05:40:05 PM  

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Can the decimal in the WAR stat be extended out?

Oh sure. You never know when that extra 3 thousandths of a run might be the difference between winning the division and last place.


Or the difference between winning the MVP or not.
 
2013-08-14 05:48:26 PM  

The Drawing Board: DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Can the decimal in the WAR stat be extended out?

Oh sure. You never know when that extra 3 thousandths of a run might be the difference between winning the division and last place.

Or the difference between winning the MVP or not.


Here's an interesting factoid: the difference between Willie Mays & Duke Snider for the rWAR lead in 1956 was just 0.02 WAR!

Snider came in 10th in MVP voting; Mays was 17th. As expected.
 
2013-08-14 05:57:17 PM  
DeWayne Mann:
Sort of like wins, from above, it sort of made sense back when there was just ONE playoff team in each league. But the Tigers making the playoffs despite having a worse record than the Angels (who didn't) should demonstrate why it's silly now.


I understand, but disagree with, the idea that the MVP must come from a playoff team. If all the matters is making the post season or not one could say all wins from a team that doesn't make it (even if they have a better record) have "no value."

There are a lot of problems with this position: we are clearly no longer awarding the best performing player, we are taking into account other players into the MVP debate, etc. but I understand why people have this championship or nothing attitude. As long as those people also use real metrics to evaluate potential candidates I am willing to understand their flawed position that the MVP is a team award given to the best player who played with other good players in a weaker division than the actual best player.
 
2013-08-14 06:02:32 PM  

You're the jerk... jerk: DeWayne Mann:
Sort of like wins, from above, it sort of made sense back when there was just ONE playoff team in each league. But the Tigers making the playoffs despite having a worse record than the Angels (who didn't) should demonstrate why it's silly now.


I understand, but disagree with, the idea that the MVP must come from a playoff team. If all the matters is making the post season or not one could say all wins from a team that doesn't make it (even if they have a better record) have "no value."


It's sort of similar to a discussion here on fark a few weeks back. Someone claimed that if a player hit a triple with the bases empty and never scored, then that triple had no offensive value for the team.

It's an idea that obviously breaks down once you really start digging into it, but he just couldn't move past "0 runs = 0 value for everyone."

You're the jerk... jerk: There are a lot of problems with this position: we are clearly no longer awarding the best performing player, we are taking into account other players into the MVP debate, etc. but I understand why people have this championship or nothing attitude. As long as those people also use real metrics to evaluate potential candidates I am willing to understand their flawed position that the MVP is a team award given to the best player who played with other good players in a weaker division than the actual best player.


I just don't see why an individual award should depend so much on team performance.
 
2013-08-14 06:05:23 PM  

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Can the decimal in the WAR stat be extended out?

Oh sure. You never know when that extra 3 thousandths of a run might be the difference between winning the division and last place.

Or the difference between winning the MVP or not.

Here's an interesting factoid: the difference between Willie Mays & Duke Snider for the rWAR lead in 1956 was just 0.02 WAR!

Snider came in 10th in MVP voting; Mays was 17th. As expected.


Mantle's Triple Crown and MVP year heh

Granted he blew the rest of the AL out of the water in WAR
 
2013-08-14 06:09:43 PM  

The Drawing Board: Mantle's Triple Crown and MVP year heh

Granted he blew the rest of the AL out of the water in WAR


In fact, he was so good, he completely screwed up the NL voting.
 
2013-08-14 06:15:45 PM  

DeWayne Mann: All together, Scherzer has pitched in two games where the tigers scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 0-1. The team was 1-1.

Comparatively, Felix Hernandez has pitched in 10 games where the Mariners have scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 3-3. The team was 3-7.


I think Chris Sale would kill for Felix's run support, let alone Scherzer's major league leading 6+ per game. The difference in run support between Sale and Felix isn't that far off in the difference in support between Felix and Scherzer.
 
2013-08-14 06:19:23 PM  

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Mantle's Triple Crown and MVP year heh

Granted he blew the rest of the AL out of the water in WAR

In fact, he was so good, he completely screwed up the NL voting.


It had a huge impact on the general election that year too. Stevenson was hosed.
 
2013-08-14 06:22:33 PM  

GQueue: DeWayne Mann: All together, Scherzer has pitched in two games where the tigers scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 0-1. The team was 1-1.

Comparatively, Felix Hernandez has pitched in 10 games where the Mariners have scored 2 or fewer runs; his record in them is 3-3. The team was 3-7.

I think Chris Sale would kill for Felix's run support, let alone Scherzer's major league leading 6+ per game. The difference in run support between Sale and Felix isn't that far off in the difference in support between Felix and Scherzer.


He's actually pitched in only 9 "2 or fewer games" (and he's 1-7 in them; the team is 2-7)

'Course, this is partially because he's started fewer games....and he had more "White Sox get shut out" games....
 
2013-08-14 06:25:08 PM  

The Drawing Board: DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Mantle's Triple Crown and MVP year heh

Granted he blew the rest of the AL out of the water in WAR

In fact, he was so good, he completely screwed up the NL voting.

It had a huge impact on the general election that year too. Stevenson was hosed.


Rumor has it the Soviets made sure to launch Sputnik before the next year's MVP voting in case the world ended.
 
2013-08-14 06:27:13 PM  

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Mantle's Triple Crown and MVP year heh

Granted he blew the rest of the AL out of the water in WAR

In fact, he was so good, he completely screwed up the NL voting.

It had a huge impact on the general election that year too. Stevenson was hosed.

Rumor has it the Soviets made sure to launch Sputnik before the next year's MVP voting in case the world ended.


lol well played

Cheers!
 
2013-08-14 06:35:25 PM  

DeWayne Mann: The Drawing Board: Triple Crown = Insta-MVP

There really is no argument to the contrary.


Except for all the arguments to the contrary, you mean?

1933: Chuck Klein wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting
1934: Lou Gehrig wins the Triple Crown, comes in 5th in MVP voting.
1942: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.
1947: Ted Williams wins the Triple Crown, comes in 2nd in MVP voting.

Insta-MVP, indeed.


To be fair 2 of those players on that list were Gehrig and Williams. Gehrig was outright hated by most in baseball and the writers and Williams was disliked by the writers. Them not winning was clearly a middle finger to them. I don't know much about Klein, so I don't know what the deal was with his year or if he had pissed in anybodies Wheaties.

But the bottom line is, unless you are very disliked by the voters, or somebody else breaks a major or long standing record, if you get the triple crown you are going to be the MVP no matter what your team does.
 
2013-08-14 06:42:38 PM  

ongbok: To be fair 2 of those players on that list were Gehrig and Williams. Gehrig was outright hated by most in baseball and the writers and Williams was disliked by the writers. Them not winning was clearly a middle finger to them. I don't know much about Klein, so I don't know what the deal was with his year or if he had pissed in anybodies Wheaties.

But the bottom line is, unless you are very disliked by the voters, or somebody else breaks a major or long standing record, if you get the triple crown you are going to be the MVP no matter what your team does.


So you're totally ok with "not being hated by the writers" as an MVP criterion?  Don't think that's silly?
 
2013-08-14 06:46:01 PM  

DeWayne Mann: ongbok: To be fair 2 of those players on that list were Gehrig and Williams. Gehrig was outright hated by most in baseball and the writers and Williams was disliked by the writers. Them not winning was clearly a middle finger to them. I don't know much about Klein, so I don't know what the deal was with his year or if he had pissed in anybodies Wheaties.

But the bottom line is, unless you are very disliked by the voters, or somebody else breaks a major or long standing record, if you get the triple crown you are going to be the MVP no matter what your team does.

So you're totally ok with "not being hated by the writers" as an MVP criterion?  Don't think that's silly?


I'm not ok with it, but it does come into play at times for things that writers vote on in all sports. It is silly not to think that it does.
 
2013-08-14 06:49:22 PM  

This Looks Fun: DeWayne Mann:

From lurking baseball threads, should I ever decide to step in, I'll tread lightly when you're around if there's a statistical argument to be had. You are far too good of a study.


Walter white approves.
 
2013-08-14 06:53:25 PM  

ongbok: I'm not ok with it, but it does come into play at times for things that writers vote on in all sports. It is silly not to think that it does.


Sounds like something worth fixing. Too bad no one other than the writers could possibly be allowed to vote.
 
2013-08-14 06:56:42 PM  
How do I know when I love a thread? When the whole damn thing is green.
 
2013-08-14 07:00:17 PM  

SlothB77: How do I know when I love a thread? When the whole damn thing is green.


You gotta switch up the colors, man. Mine's got yellow, red, blue, orange, purple & grey.

Amusingly, no green at all.
 
2013-08-14 07:01:41 PM  

zarberg: How does Wright have that high of a WAR?


He's a strong defender at a position of average importance, batting .309/.391/.512 in a (still) pitcher-friendly ballpark, and he adds further value by being an excellent baserunner.

What do you want him to do?  Pitch the 9th?
 
2013-08-14 07:10:30 PM  

meanmutton: People that thought Cabrera deserved it thought that he was a far superior player -- that defense is over rated


These people are dumb.  One run prevented is worth exactly as much as one run scored.

, that performance later in the year when the opponents were trying harder was more important than performance earlier in the year,

These people are dumb.  One win in April is worth roughly as much as one win in October.  If anything, winning games in April is more valuable, because you can make decisions later in the year based on your position in the standings, whereas in April you need to play to win every year.  (For example: If you're coasting into September, you can rest key players.  If you're in a tight race in July, it might change your deadline trade strategies.  You want a big lead early that you can "let" decline to an extent.)

Also, any team that isn't "trying hard" in April is dumb.
 
2013-08-14 07:43:48 PM  

DeWayne Mann: ongbok: I'm not ok with it, but it does come into play at times for things that writers vote on in all sports. It is silly not to think that it does.

Sounds like something worth fixing. Too bad no one other than the writers could possibly be allowed to vote.


No matter who is voting if a person is very disliked people will not vote for them just to give them a middle finger
 
2013-08-14 07:53:10 PM  

chimp_ninja: zarberg: How does Wright have that high of a WAR?

He's a strong defender at a position of average importance, batting .309/.391/.512 in a (still) pitcher-friendly ballpark, and he adds further value by being an excellent baserunner.

What do you want him to do?  Pitch the 9th?


hes a met and mets r bad.  study it out.
 
2013-08-14 08:17:24 PM  

chimp_ninja: zarberg: How does Wright have that high of a WAR?

He's a strong defender at a position of average importance, batting .309/.391/.512 in a (still) pitcher-friendly ballpark, and he adds further value by being an excellent baserunner.

What do you want him to do?  Pitch the 9th?


Wasn't being disrespectful or rude or snarky, just honestly didn't know what went into WAR.
 
2013-08-14 09:11:29 PM  

idesofmarch: This Looks Fun: I still don't buy it. (Whiny Twins fan warning) When the Yankees buy all of the best players and make the playoffs, no ONE player on that team is more Valuable to the Yankees than the best player on a team full of Replacement Players.

If the Yankees buy all of the best players, how come none of them are even being considered for MVP?

/self-contradictory whining is contradictory


1. I said I was a whiny Twins fan.
2. I used that as an example. I did not say the Yankees have purchased all of the best players.

/ stupid addendum is stupid
 
Displayed 181 of 181 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report