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(ESPN)   Don't look now, but you will never guess which two players lead all MLB position players (hitters/ fielders) in Wins Above Replacement   (espn.go.com) divider line 181
    More: Obvious, Major League Baseball, wars, position player, Adrian Beltre, Hanley Ramirez, David Wright, Carlos Gomez, Jason Kipnis  
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2624 clicks; posted to Sports » on 14 Aug 2013 at 10:49 AM (47 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-14 10:58:51 AM
What is this, rWAR? All real nerds use fWAR which has the same two in the opposite order.

It is a little easier for me to try to defend Miggy as MVP this year but probably still going to have to say trout deserves it.


/Guess we will just have to be happy with a world series win
 
2013-08-14 10:59:51 AM
But I was told that WAR is good for absolutely nothing.
 
2013-08-14 11:02:54 AM
Yeah, I mean, I supported Trout last year, but I have no problem with Cabrera as of right now.

And Cabrera is probably going to win in a landslide anyway, so.......
 
2013-08-14 11:03:44 AM
Wouldn't be crazy if Migs wins the Triple Crown again this year?
 
2013-08-14 11:03:45 AM

Arkanaut: But I was told that WAR is good for absolutely nothing.


Good God, y'all.
 
2013-08-14 11:04:55 AM
Look stat geeks, you can stop kiss Trout's ass. No amount of math formulas and "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP" will ever beat the facts that Cabrera is on an all-time historic tear and Trout's Angels are 10 games under .500.  As the old adage goes, the Angels could be 10 games under .500 with or without Trout.
 
2013-08-14 11:05:29 AM
Someone on ESPN said last night that because Miggy is better this year than last year, but he was the MVP last year, that automatically means he's the MVP this year.

I'm not sure I can repeat what I said.
 
2013-08-14 11:06:37 AM

WTF Indeed: Look stat geeks, you can stop kiss Trout's ass. No amount of math formulas and "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP" will ever beat the facts that Cabrera is on an all-time historic tear and Trout's Angels are 10 games under .500.  As the old adage goes, the Angels could be 10 games under .500 with or without Trout.


Si Miggy is a better player because he is on a better team?  Good to know
 
2013-08-14 11:06:39 AM

WTF Indeed: "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP"


Who the hell said this? Because it's stupid
 
2013-08-14 11:08:11 AM

DeWayne Mann: Someone on ESPN said last night that because Miggy is better this year than last year, but he was the MVP last year, that automatically means he's the MVP this year.

I'm not sure I can repeat what I said.


Now, if you want to crown him, then crown his ass!
 
2013-08-14 11:08:15 AM

DeWayne Mann: Someone on ESPN said last night that because Miggy is better this year than last year, but he was the MVP last year, that automatically means he's the MVP this year.

I'm not sure I can repeat what I said.


This worked for Steve Nash, so there's precedent.
 
2013-08-14 11:08:59 AM

Rex_Banner: WTF Indeed: "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP"

Who the hell said this? Because it's stupid


I may have said that as a way of demonstrating why many similar pro-Miggy arguments were stupid.
 
2013-08-14 11:09:43 AM

Rex_Banner: WTF Indeed: "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP"

Who the hell said this? Because it's stupid


We should have an award for most cost-effective player.  It's a more modern view.
 
2013-08-14 11:10:02 AM

ongbok: Wouldn't be crazy if Migs wins the Triple Crown again this year?


Won't happen unless Chris Davis knocks off his HR hitting soon.
 
2013-08-14 11:10:59 AM

Rex_Banner: Who the hell said this? Because it's stupid


Jeff Passan

Because if you argue that salary = value then Trout is obviously the MVP because he makes 510k and Miggy makes 21m.
 
2013-08-14 11:12:06 AM
Colby is almost in the top 30?! Oh gawd. We have to pay him now, don't we?
 
2013-08-14 11:12:22 AM

WTF Indeed: with or without Trout.



Sleight of hand, and twist of fate
On a 3-2 count he makes me wait
And I'll wait, cos' I'm due

Through the 8th we reached the 'pen
Righty with a delivery like Robb Nen
And I'll wait, cos' I'm due

And I fouled one away
And I fouled one away
And again
And again

With or without Trout, oh oh
With or without Trout
We can't win, with or without Trout
 
2013-08-14 11:13:22 AM
Yankees would probably be south of .500 without Robbie Cano or Hiroki Kuroda, therefore, one of those two are the clear MVP choices.
 
2013-08-14 11:15:14 AM

tdunning: WTF Indeed: Look stat geeks, you can stop kiss Trout's ass. No amount of math formulas and "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP" will ever beat the facts that Cabrera is on an all-time historic tear and Trout's Angels are 10 games under .500.  As the old adage goes, the Angels could be 10 games under .500 with or without Trout.

Si Miggy is a better player because he is on a better team?  Good to know


notice how it's called "Most Valuable Player", not "Best Player"?
 
2013-08-14 11:17:23 AM

You're the jerk... jerk: What is this, rWAR? All real nerds use fWAR which has the same two in the opposite order.

It is a little easier for me to try to defend Miggy as MVP this year but probably still going to have to say trout deserves it.


/Guess we will just have to be happy with a world series win




Or use dwar and see what may surpise some people on who's leading in that.
 
2013-08-14 11:17:27 AM

fark_me_running: notice how it's called "Most Valuable Player", not "Best Player"?


www.godprobe.com
 
2013-08-14 11:18:28 AM

WTF Indeed: Rex_Banner: Who the hell said this? Because it's stupid

Jeff Passan

Because if you argue that salary = value then Trout is obviously the MVP because he makes 510k and Miggy makes 21m.


Makes as much sense as "Miggy is the MVP because his team was in a weaker division."

thecpt: Colby is almost in the top 30?! Oh gawd. We have to pay him now, don't we?


No. Colby's still arb eligible, and you can't use basically any of the stats that go into WAR in an arb hearing. And none of his traditional stats are impressive.
 
2013-08-14 11:18:39 AM
Lol, Orioles have two guys in the top ten and won't make the playoffs.
 
2013-08-14 11:18:49 AM

fark_me_running: tdunning: WTF Indeed: Look stat geeks, you can stop kiss Trout's ass. No amount of math formulas and "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP" will ever beat the facts that Cabrera is on an all-time historic tear and Trout's Angels are 10 games under .500.  As the old adage goes, the Angels could be 10 games under .500 with or without Trout.

Si Miggy is a better player because he is on a better team?  Good to know

notice how it's called "Most Valuable Player", not "Best Player"?


Ok so players on good teams can't win because their teams would still be good anyway and players from bad teams can't win because they're bad anyway. MVP awards should be reserved for players on average teams who would be slightly below average in their absence.
 
2013-08-14 11:19:38 AM

Mid_mo_mad_man: Or use dwar and see what may surpise some people on who's leading in that.


Yes let's all use a stat that has no actual meaning.
 
2013-08-14 11:19:49 AM
So if Miggy wins a second consecutive MVP, does that make him........*dons sunglasses*.....Multiple Miggs YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
 
2013-08-14 11:20:23 AM

Rex_Banner: And Cabrera is probably going to win in a landslide anyway, so.......


I had just assumed Chris Davis was the frontrunner for this year's AL MVP.

MVP:
AL: Chris Davis
NL: Paul Goldschmidt

Cy Young
AL: Max Scherzer
NL: Clayton Kershaw

My only concern is both Davis and Goldschmidt are on teams that right now would not make the playoffs, and so if making the playoffs is a factor for those who decide, those awards could go to McCutchen and Cabrera instead.
 
2013-08-14 11:22:19 AM

SlothB77: Rex_Banner: And Cabrera is probably going to win in a landslide anyway, so.......

I had just assumed Chris Davis was the frontrunner for this year's AL MVP.

MVP:
AL: Chris Davis
NL: Paul Goldschmidt

Cy Young
AL: Max Scherzer
NL: Clayton Kershaw

My only concern is both Davis and Goldschmidt are on teams that right now would not make the playoffs, and so if making the playoffs is a factor for those who decide, those awards could go to McCutchen and Cabrera instead.


Is this YOUR ballot, or what you think will happen?
 
2013-08-14 11:22:51 AM

tdunning: WTF Indeed: Look stat geeks, you can stop kiss Trout's ass. No amount of math formulas and "Should salary be taken into account when voting of the MVP" will ever beat the facts that Cabrera is on an all-time historic tear and Trout's Angels are 10 games under .500.  As the old adage goes, the Angels could be 10 games under .500 with or without Trout.

Si Miggy is a better player because he is on a better team?  Good to know


No, the Tigers are better team because of his offense, and his offense is a very big part of their success. That is what the MVP is, the person most valuable to a teams success. Without Miggy they are probably tied with Cleveland and KC for the division lead instead of 6 games up. With out Trout the Angels are still out of contention. Carlos Gomez's numbers are almost comparable to Trout's, and I will say if Gomez was on a team that had more hitting his numbers would mirror Trout's. Nobody's numbers have been near Miggy's and nobody's number would rise to his numbers from an improvement in the batting on his team.
 
2013-08-14 11:25:17 AM

DeWayne Mann: Makes as much sense as "Miggy is the MVP because his team was in a weaker division."


First of all, that's the worst argument for someone in the history of arguments. Second, the "cost-effective" argument is at least supportable, however its goal here is not to say salary should be taken into account, but rather "we need to find away for our formulas to take the lead forever". You're adding another number to your argument instead of just relying solely on WAR.
 
2013-08-14 11:26:15 AM

DeWayne Mann: SlothB77: Rex_Banner: And Cabrera is probably going to win in a landslide anyway, so.......

I had just assumed Chris Davis was the frontrunner for this year's AL MVP.

MVP:
AL: Chris Davis
NL: Paul Goldschmidt

Cy Young
AL: Max Scherzer
NL: Clayton Kershaw

My only concern is both Davis and Goldschmidt are on teams that right now would not make the playoffs, and so if making the playoffs is a factor for those who decide, those awards could go to McCutchen and Cabrera instead.

Is this YOUR ballot, or what you think will happen?


What i think will happen.

My ballot is:

Trout
McCutchen

Scherzer
Kershaw
 
2013-08-14 11:28:41 AM

DeWayne Mann: WTF Indeed: Rex_Banner: Who the hell said this? Because it's stupid

Jeff Passan

Because if you argue that salary = value then Trout is obviously the MVP because he makes 510k and Miggy makes 21m.

Makes as much sense as "Miggy is the MVP because his team was in a weaker division."

thecpt: Colby is almost in the top 30?! Oh gawd. We have to pay him now, don't we?

No. Colby's still arb eligible, and you can't use basically any of the stats that go into WAR in an arb hearing. And none of his traditional stats are impressive.


Yeah, I knew it was the arb year but I'm pretty sure AA has repeatedly told Colby he is the best thing evar. I have no clue what that fetches on the arb market.

Anyways, I suspect miggy's duct taped hip isn't going to last another month. Should make these threads interesting soon.
 
2013-08-14 11:29:06 AM

DeWayne Mann: Mid_mo_mad_man: Or use dwar and see what may surpise some people on who's leading in that.

Yes let's all use a stat that has no actual meaning.


Or we could just guess because of the nature of dWAR the leaders will be the two best defensive short stops in the game.
 
2013-08-14 11:29:23 AM
"person most valuable to a team's success" isn't necessarily what the award is for. Hockey has a definition, baseball doesn't.
 
2013-08-14 11:29:51 AM

SlothB77: Goldschmidt are on teams that right now would not make the playoff



i was saying recently how it it is astounding how after the Puig vs Kennedy* beanball incident, the Snakes completely collapsed and that's about when Los Doyers began their, what, 39-8 tear.  Kennedy isn't even a Snake.  Traded him in-division, at that.

Wondering what happens to Gibby if the Snakes don't make the playoffs.  Last year we finished 3rd, barely at .500.  a 5.5 game lead circa the ASG has now become a 7.5 deficit with about 40 games left.  yeah, NL West title in 2011, but nothing came of it (first round loss).  No playoffs in 2012.  Probably no playoffs, and a pretty incredible collapse in the second half in 2013.  I wonder how safe Gibby is if the Snakes complete the gag job.


*still mad that my headline of like, "Kennedy incites Bay of Puigs incident" headline wasn't greenlit
 
2013-08-14 11:30:05 AM

WTF Indeed: First of all, that's the worst argument for someone in the history of arguments


Yes, that's what I spent a week trying to explain last year. Thanks for agreeing with me.

WTF Indeed: You're adding another number to your argument instead of just relying solely on WAR.


Since you're confused, let me break this down for you:

Most of the pro-Trout guys thought Trout was the MVP because he was a far superior player. WAR is just one way of demonstrating that.

Most of the pro-Cabrera guys thought he was the MVP because of other things: playoffs, triple crown, him moving to third to make room for Fielder, etc.

I'm fully convinced Trout was better, but if you aren't, then I HAVE to use "other things" to make my case to you. Thus, his salary is roughly as legitimate as anything used in Miggy's case.
 
2013-08-14 11:31:12 AM
Cabrera is going to rightfully win again this year with ease.
 
2013-08-14 11:31:16 AM

Arkanaut: But I was told that WAR is good for absolutely nothing.


Say it again?
 
2013-08-14 11:32:35 AM

WTF Indeed: Jeff Passan


There's you're problem
 
2013-08-14 11:32:42 AM

DeWayne Mann: Mid_mo_mad_man: Or use dwar and see what may surpise some people on who's leading in that.

Yes let's all use a stat that has no actual meaning.




That's funny coming from you. That being said how is preventing runs from being scored not important?
 
2013-08-14 11:32:50 AM

DeWayne Mann: his salary is roughly as legitimate as anything used in Miggy's case.



using salary in a non-salary cap league is ridiculous.  might as well factor in draft round he was taken in.  "welp, he had 51HRs but he was taken in the 12th round, but the first round pick has only 49HRs, so......"
 
2013-08-14 11:33:10 AM

wxboy: ongbok: Wouldn't be crazy if Migs wins the Triple Crown again this year?

Won't happen unless Chris Davis knocks off his HR hitting soon.


He is only 7 back and there is a lot of baseball left to be played.
 
2013-08-14 11:36:04 AM
also, everyone was giving Trout grief last year for slumping during the end of the season.  (whether he actually was or not is another debate, he was getting grief for it).

Trout opened this season hitting .261 in April.  He's been turning it on late season.  He hit .379 in July and .361 so far post all-star game.

Cabrera, has hit .378 or better every month except july when he hit .288.  He is still extremely effective hitting the ball when he plays, but the usually resilient third baseman is starting to break down this season with his hip/ abdomen injury.
 
2013-08-14 11:36:59 AM

SlothB77: What i think will happen.

My ballot is:

Trout
McCutchen

Scherzer
Kershaw


Hm. You didn't change the one that surprised me the most.

Why Scherzer?

thecpt: Yeah, I knew it was the arb year but I'm pretty sure AA has repeatedly told Colby he is the best thing evar. I have no clue what that fetches on the arb market.


Arb is basically "This player had a .275 average, 20 HR, 80 RBI this season. That's pretty similar to [insert crappy player] who got 8 mil in his final arb year." And then the player's rep says "Yes, but he had 40 SB and 100 R which is like [better player] who got 10 mil in his final arb year." And then the arbitrators decide on 8 or 10 mil with nothing else allowed.

It's very silly.

You're the jerk... jerk: Or we could just guess because of the nature of dWAR the leaders will be the two best defensive short stops in the game.


There actually aren't really any good defensive SSs in the AL. Iglesias will be, but he hasn't played it much. Hardy's pretty good. Alceides Escobar, maybe. But that's about it.

So it ends up being Machado, then Cain, Pedroia, Victorino (which is a shock) and Salvy Perez.
 
2013-08-14 11:37:57 AM

SlothB77: Rex_Banner: And Cabrera is probably going to win in a landslide anyway, so.......

I had just assumed Chris Davis was the frontrunner for this year's AL MVP.

MVP:
AL: Chris Davis
NL: Paul Goldschmidt

Cy Young
AL: Max Scherzer
NL: Clayton Kershaw

My only concern is both Davis and Goldschmidt are on teams that right now would not make the playoffs, and so if making the playoffs is a factor for those who decide, those awards could go to McCutchen and Cabrera instead.


I don't see any way that Davis beats Cabrera. And honestly, he shouldn't. Cabrera has been better
 
2013-08-14 11:38:57 AM

Mid_mo_mad_man: That's funny coming from you. That being said how is preventing runs from being scored not important?


Because that's not what dWAR is. That's vaguely what it used to be, but that's not what it is now.

What it is now is the addition of three somewhat related numbers and then dividing by ~10. Adding stuff together is fun, but it should probably serve some sort of purpose.
 
2013-08-14 11:41:40 AM

thecpt: Anyways, I suspect miggy's duct taped hip isn't going to last another month. Should make these threads interesting soon.


Davis has been missing time as well, i think a hamstring issue.  So it is possible, if Miggy can get healthier than Davis, for him to catch up.  But both have been missing time.  I am surprised his injuries have not effected his productivity yet.
 
2013-08-14 11:44:43 AM
Also, can Kuroda get some love for the AL CYA? I'm not saying he should win it, but it seems like he's waaaayyyyyyy too far under the radar
 
2013-08-14 11:46:13 AM

Rex_Banner: Also, can Kuroda get some love for the AL CYA? I'm not saying he should win it, but it seems like he's waaaayyyyyyy too far under the radar


Leyland specifically picking Tillman over Kuroda for the ASG pretty well sealed Kuroda's fate.
 
2013-08-14 11:46:32 AM

Rex_Banner: Also, can Kuroda get some love for the AL CYA? I'm not saying he should win it, but it seems like he's waaaayyyyyyy too far under the radar


He's got the The King Felix argument working for him so he should be in the running.
 
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