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(Forbes)   Largest Bitcoin holders subpoenaed by New York regulators. Officials say they are worried about a monetary system that is not real and can fluctuate wildly with market conditions ... pretty much like the one we have   (forbes.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, bitcoins, New York, Financial Regulator, virtual currency, venture funding, Marc Andreessen, Ponzi schemes, New York Statutes  
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4795 clicks; posted to Business » on 14 Aug 2013 at 8:24 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-14 08:19:03 AM  
if im not trying to pay for something illegal is their a single reason i should care about any of this?
 
2013-08-14 08:25:19 AM  

NickelP: if im not trying to pay for something illegal is their a single reason i should care about any of this?


Because you ought to be able to engage in any kind of trade that you wish.
 
2013-08-14 08:30:15 AM  
The value of the USD fluctuates wildly?
 
2013-08-14 08:30:28 AM  
Will they subpoena Chucky Cheese for using tickets as a form of currency?
 
2013-08-14 08:30:49 AM  
I fail to understand how a U.S. Federal Judge can subpoena people to answer their questions about a non U.S. currency.

Seems to me that they really just need to investigate it on their own to realize that they CAN'T regulate it.
 
2013-08-14 08:31:10 AM  

MemeSlave: NickelP: if im not trying to pay for something illegal is their a single reason i should care about any of this?

Because you ought to be able to engage in any kind of trade that you wish.


The problem is we have a long history of people using deceit and fraud to harm the other party of those trades, who did not fully understand what was occurring.  At some point we decided that wasn't acceptable and began to try to limit that from happening, at least as well as possible.  It doesn't sound like they are trying to ban bit coin, just apply the appropriate regulations to it.  I'm really not sure why anyone not trying to do illegal shiat or scam others would be concerned by this.  If anything I would think it would be helpful to most folks really interested in using it as a legit currency over the long term.
 
2013-08-14 08:31:56 AM  
Officials say they are worried about a monetary system that is not real and can fluctuate wildly with market conditions under the direct control of the banks and government , with the potential to spawn other systems like it debasing their control over the people.
 
2013-08-14 08:33:06 AM  

Hoblit: I fail to understand how a U.S. Federal Judge can subpoena people to answer their questions about a non U.S. currency.

Seems to me that they really just need to investigate it on their own to realize that they CAN'T regulate it.


You can't regulate it abroad, but you can regulate what US citizens do with it on US soil.
 
2013-08-14 08:34:05 AM  

Hoblit: I fail to understand how a U.S. Federal Judge can subpoena people to answer their questions about a non U.S. currency.

Seems to me that they really just need to investigate it on their own to realize that they CAN'T regulate it.


I'm pretty sure if I opened up a stand down by the the ol' river where I exchanged yen for USD there would be some us laws I'd have to comply with.  Regulating non us produced items on us soil is not exactly a new concept.

Sorry your 'omg its a non us currency so I can do whatever I want with it and the feds can't touch me!' fallacy is crashing down.
 
2013-08-14 08:34:49 AM  
Bitcoins?  What a silly concept.
 
2013-08-14 08:35:48 AM  

NickelP: MemeSlave: NickelP: if im not trying to pay for something illegal is their a single reason i should care about any of this?

Because you ought to be able to engage in any kind of trade that you wish.

The problem is we have a long history of people using deceit and fraud to harm the other party of those trades, who did not fully understand what was occurring.  At some point we decided that wasn't acceptable and began to try to limit that from happening, at least as well as possible.  It doesn't sound like they are trying to ban bit coin, just apply the appropriate regulations to it.  I'm really not sure why anyone not trying to do illegal shiat or scam others would be concerned by this.  If anything I would think it would be helpful to most folks really interested in using it as a legit currency over the long term.


Ah yes it is for your protection, citizen. The government will watch out for you.
 
2013-08-14 08:36:35 AM  

MemeSlave: Because you ought to be able to engage in any kind of trade that you wish.


weareteampretty.com
 
2013-08-14 08:36:41 AM  

Edge.bot: Officials say they are worried about a monetary system that is not real and can fluctuate wildly with market conditions under the direct control of the banks and government , with the potential to spawn other systems like it debasing their control over the people.


Yes, I'd much rather it be controlled by select people without any particular allegiance or codes (good or bad).

/I get it.  Gub'mint is always bad.
 
2013-08-14 08:36:54 AM  
You aren't sticking it to the man by purchasing bitcoins.  You're speculating on an opaque marketed product.

I would however consider bitcoins for purchasing drugs, so it has that going for it.  Cash still works best for that though.
 
2013-08-14 08:37:17 AM  

js34603: NickelP: MemeSlave: NickelP: if im not trying to pay for something illegal is their a single reason i should care about any of this?

Because you ought to be able to engage in any kind of trade that you wish.

The problem is we have a long history of people using deceit and fraud to harm the other party of those trades, who did not fully understand what was occurring.  At some point we decided that wasn't acceptable and began to try to limit that from happening, at least as well as possible.  It doesn't sound like they are trying to ban bit coin, just apply the appropriate regulations to it.  I'm really not sure why anyone not trying to do illegal shiat or scam others would be concerned by this.  If anything I would think it would be helpful to most folks really interested in using it as a legit currency over the long term.

Ah yes it is for your protection, citizen. The government will watch out for you.


beats the shiat out of coal town coins and the thousands of other times fake currencies screwed people hard.  Sometimes the government really does beat the shiat out of capitalism for protecting the little guy.
 
2013-08-14 08:37:34 AM  
Bitcoin has had it's ups and downs, but just like EVERY other system the government has touched, once they get their claws into it, it goes to shiat.

They are interested in it because they just can't stand the idea of someone being able to transfer money or buying and selling things without them having a spy glass on the transaction.  It scares them to death knowing that there are ways around their kung fu death grip of control.

I've made maybe 1000 dollars out of bitcoin profit in the past 2 years, small time, but still free money to me even after you factor out the cost of electricity.  It's not a get rich quick scheme unless you have lots of money to invest *and* get lucky as hell.  For the people biatching about "it's only for illegal stuff" -- I can take the same amount of money in US dollars and go buy illegal things just as easy from some drug dealer on the street.

If they US government was REALLY concerned about the well being of US consumers, the health of the US dollar, etc etc... they would turn off the printing presses, stop giving our money away to foreign nations that hate us, and start spending they money they have in the USA.  Claiming to want to make sure the system is safe for "the people" is bullshiat. It's nothing but a bunch of fatass politicians sitting around collecting a check, looking for ways to collect more checks

Want to have a safe banking system? Leave it the hell alone and let private people figure it out for themselves.
 
2013-08-14 08:38:06 AM  
Our whole economic system is propped up by global belief in the strength of the dollar.  Anything that undermines that strength is an enemy of the economic system.  Bitcoin, despite being small and relatively insignificant, represents a serious threat to that system down the road, and as such must be crushed immediately.
 
2013-08-14 08:39:58 AM  
Money only works if everyone buys into the same delusion. If people stop doing that the whole thing falls apart rather quickly.
 
2013-08-14 08:40:16 AM  

MemeSlave: NickelP: if im not trying to pay for something illegal is their a single reason i should care about any of this?

Because you ought to be able to engage in any kind of trade that you wish.


Really?

I'll trade you gobs of heroin for some weapons grade plutonium, please.
 
2013-08-14 08:41:21 AM  
I'm getting the feeling that a lot of people in this thread are prone to quoting DOCTOR Ron Paul.
 
2013-08-14 08:41:34 AM  

VoodooTaco: Yes, I'd much rather it be controlled by select people without any particular allegiance or codes (good or bad).


bitcoin is peer to peer.  It's not controlled by anyone.  That's the point.

The real upset that the governments have (not just the U.S. government) is that Bitcoin goes beyond fiat currency and, all of a sudden, you've one of the major powers of the government away from them.

And if you're pissed about "people are doing bad things with it" then you better stop using USD because there is not a currency in the history of the world that has ended more lives than the American dollar.
 
2013-08-14 08:41:59 AM  

rockspin: The value of the USD fluctuates wildly?


Yes. Look up forex and learn to make money off of nothing more than ceilings and floors set in place by the central banks.
 
2013-08-14 08:42:19 AM  

accelerus: Bitcoin has had it's ups and downs, but just like EVERY other system the government has touched, once they get their claws into it, it goes to shiat.

They are interested in it because they just can't stand the idea of someone being able to transfer money or buying and selling things without them having a spy glass on the transaction.  It scares them to death knowing that there are ways around their kung fu death grip of control.

I've made maybe 1000 dollars out of bitcoin profit in the past 2 years, small time, but still free money to me even after you factor out the cost of electricity.  It's not a get rich quick scheme unless you have lots of money to invest *and* get lucky as hell.  For the people biatching about "it's only for illegal stuff" -- I can take the same amount of money in US dollars and go buy illegal things just as easy from some drug dealer on the street.

If they US government was REALLY concerned about the well being of US consumers, the health of the US dollar, etc etc... they would turn off the printing presses, stop giving our money away to foreign nations that hate us, and start spending they money they have in the USA.  Claiming to want to make sure the system is safe for "the people" is bullshiat. It's nothing but a bunch of fatass politicians sitting around collecting a check, looking for ways to collect more checks

Want to have a safe banking system? Leave it the hell alone and let private people figure it out for themselves.


So I guess you missed out on the last 30 years. We've seen what happens when you leave banks to their own devices, and the result isn't pretty.
 
2013-08-14 08:42:26 AM  
If the government wants to regulate fake banks, they should start with PayPal.
 
2013-08-14 08:43:39 AM  
I advise them to assert the Fifth Amendment. The regulators obviously have data passed on to them from the NSA and are setting up a perjury trap.
 
2013-08-14 08:43:51 AM  

accelerus: Want to have a safe banking system? Leave it the hell alone and let private people figure it out for themselves.


You like Tulips? I love Tulips, want to buy some Tulips? I hear there may be some special ones coming up this year.
 
2013-08-14 08:44:16 AM  

MelGoesOnTour: Bitcoins?  What a silly concept.


Thanks for that enlightening comment.
 
2013-08-14 08:44:37 AM  

pag1107: Hoblit: I fail to understand how a U.S. Federal Judge can subpoena people to answer their questions about a non U.S. currency.

Seems to me that they really just need to investigate it on their own to realize that they CAN'T regulate it.

You can't regulate it abroad, but you can regulate what US citizens do with it on US soil.


na na na na na you can't get  me

cdn.playbackonline.ca
 
2013-08-14 08:45:17 AM  

Rapmaster2000: I'm getting the feeling that a lot of people in this thread are prone to quoting DOCTOR Ron Paul.


I hate the philosophy of Ron and Rand Paul, BTW.  Calling what Rand believes a philosophy is extremely hyperbolic anyway because he just believes what his corporate buddies tell him to believe.

The plebeians in the US are stuck in a debate whether the government should have ALL power or NO power at all.  That's not the debate at all, though.  It's all about who should have the power.  The right want the corporate class to hold it.  I think taking certain monetary policy away from the government is healthy, while I think corporate regulation needs to be ramped up.
 
2013-08-14 08:45:34 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: accelerus: Bitcoin has had it's ups and downs, but just like EVERY other system the government has touched, once they get their claws into it, it goes to shiat.

They are interested in it because they just can't stand the idea of someone being able to transfer money or buying and selling things without them having a spy glass on the transaction.  It scares them to death knowing that there are ways around their kung fu death grip of control.

I've made maybe 1000 dollars out of bitcoin profit in the past 2 years, small time, but still free money to me even after you factor out the cost of electricity.  It's not a get rich quick scheme unless you have lots of money to invest *and* get lucky as hell.  For the people biatching about "it's only for illegal stuff" -- I can take the same amount of money in US dollars and go buy illegal things just as easy from some drug dealer on the street.

If they US government was REALLY concerned about the well being of US consumers, the health of the US dollar, etc etc... they would turn off the printing presses, stop giving our money away to foreign nations that hate us, and start spending they money they have in the USA.  Claiming to want to make sure the system is safe for "the people" is bullshiat. It's nothing but a bunch of fatass politicians sitting around collecting a check, looking for ways to collect more checks

Want to have a safe banking system? Leave it the hell alone and let private people figure it out for themselves.

So I guess you missed out on the last 30 years. We've seen what happens when you leave banks to their own devices, and the result isn't pretty.


Regulate greed?  Good luck.
 
2013-08-14 08:45:45 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: So I guess you missed out on the last 30 years. We've seen what happens when you leave banks to their own devices, and the result isn't pretty.


The banking industry?  Unregulated?  Ha.  The banking industry is probably the most regulated industry in America.

Get this - Perhaps the single most important number in all of finance, the federal funds rate, is actively targeted by the US government.  It'd be like saying the dairy industry is unregulated, except for the fact that we are price fixing milk.  And instead of the cheese market that gets distorted, it's all of finance.
 
2013-08-14 08:46:17 AM  

IdBeCrazyIf: accelerus: Want to have a safe banking system? Leave it the hell alone and let private people figure it out for themselves.

You like Tulips? I love Tulips, want to buy some Tulips? I hear there may be some special ones coming up this year.


www.somegif.com
 
2013-08-14 08:47:06 AM  
Isn't the whole appeal of Bitcoin the notion that asshats like this are NOT regulating it?
 
2013-08-14 08:47:36 AM  

MattStafford: Tyrone Slothrop: So I guess you missed out on the last 30 years. We've seen what happens when you leave banks to their own devices, and the result isn't pretty.

The banking industry?  Unregulated?  Ha.  The banking industry is probably the most regulated industry in America.

Get this - Perhaps the single most important number in all of finance, the federal funds rate, is actively targeted by the US government.  It'd be like saying the dairy industry is unregulated, except for the fact that we are price fixing milk.  And instead of the cheese market that gets distorted, it's all of finance.


You can only believe this with a straight face if you believe that they banking industry doesn't have their tentacles in every regulatory office in the land.  And you don't believe that's true then you're EXTREMELY naive.
 
2013-08-14 08:48:17 AM  

d23: www.somegif.com


lol, I remember that moment in the playoffs when faced with some butthurt
 
2013-08-14 08:49:55 AM  
accelerus: Bitcoin has had it's ups and downs, but just like EVERY other system the government has touched, once they get their claws into it, it goes to shiat.

They are interested in it because they just can't stand the idea of someone being able to transfer money or buying and selling things without them having a spy glass on the transaction.  It scares them to death knowing that there are ways around their kung fu death grip of control.

This is where you have been lied to.  You can conduct your financial transactions with any item you'd like.  You can use nothing but paperclips to receive and make payments if you'd like, and your other trading partners are ok with it.  The part you and the bit coin people never understood is it wasn't the currency being regulated as much as the trade.  You still have to account for these things and pay taxes on them.  Not using the USD doesn't magically make every other law go away, it just takes a second for the gov to realize when you are doing then they fix it.  This is what you are seeing now.

Want to have a safe banking system? Leave it the hell alone and let private people figure it out for themselves.

History has proved time and time again that an unregulated banking system shoots money straight to the top and farks everyone else hard.  I think you are going to learn that lesson too when that $1k in bitcoins you have is worth .50 after everyone figures out a currency based around peoples belief that they should be able to buy weed without using the usd wasn't the greatest of ideas.  Just my advice, but i'd sell off what you have.
 
2013-08-14 08:52:23 AM  

NickelP: If anything I would think it would be helpful to most folks really interested in using it as a legit currency over the long term.


If what you are doing is legit why would you need a bitcoin?
 
2013-08-14 08:52:41 AM  

NickelP: I think you are going to learn that lesson too when that $1k in bitcoins you have is worth .50 after everyone figures out a currency based around peoples belief that they should be able to buy weed without using the usd wasn't the greatest of ideas. Just my advice, but i'd sell off what you have.


And I will never listen to you about anything ever again... ever.
 
2013-08-14 08:53:52 AM  

manimal2878: NickelP: If anything I would think it would be helpful to most folks really interested in using it as a legit currency over the long term.

If what you are doing is legit why would you need a bitcoin?


Wow!  If you aren't doing anything illegal, why would you care about surveillance, citizen?
 
2013-08-14 08:54:26 AM  

manimal2878: NickelP: If anything I would think it would be helpful to most folks really interested in using it as a legit currency over the long term.

If what you are doing is legit why would you need a bitcoin?


That was kind of my original question.  I *could* see some value in using it as a universal type hedge if it was a stabilized international currency.  It isn't right now though.
 
2013-08-14 08:55:52 AM  

d23: You can only believe this with a straight face if you believe that they banking industry doesn't have their tentacles in every regulatory office in the land.  And you don't believe that's true then you're EXTREMELY naive.


Too many negatives in this sentence for me to parse it correctly.

If you are suggesting that there is a revolving door between the finance world and the regulatory world, I agree with you 100%.  If you are suggesting that because of this, they are "unregulated" - I would have to completely disagree.  Because of the revolving door, they are heavily regulated, and what's more, they are heavily regulated favorably.

The revolving door between finance and regulatory bodies have created a situation where finance has both free run and favorable regulations and guarantees and implications and whatever from the government, allowing them to take riskier actions without fear of failure.

Let's put it like this - finance industry has a guy in the government.  Guy in government says that all of the banks loans are guaranteed by the government.  This is regulation.  This regulation causes the bank to act in a risky manner, and that bank destroys the economy.  Were those actions the result of a lack of regulation, or the regulation itself?
 
2013-08-14 08:59:10 AM  

JacobDavidWatson: MelGoesOnTour: Bitcoins?  What a silly concept.

Thanks for that enlightening comment.


Well, then, good luck buying your groceries tonight with your bitcoins.
 
2013-08-14 08:59:16 AM  

MattStafford: Let's put it like this - finance industry has a guy in the government. Guy in government says that all of the banks loans are guaranteed by the government. This is regulation. This regulation causes the bank to act in a risky manner, and that bank destroys the economy. Were those actions the result of a lack of regulation, or the regulation itself?


Well.. I am trying to understand your argument here, but I think it's not far off from my argument, actually.  My basic argument is that revolving door jobs basically mean regulations are favorable, not necessarily that they are "unregulated."  It's perhaps a situation even WORSE than no regulation as regulations favor the guys with the most cash.
 
2013-08-14 08:59:29 AM  

NickelP: beats the shiat out of coal town coins and the thousands of other times fake currencies screwed people hard. Sometimes the government really does beat the shiat out of capitalism for protecting the little guy.


You felt screwed over by disney dollars, too, huh? ;-p

theknuckler_33: I'll trade you gobs of heroin for some weapons grade plutonium, please.



Anyone huffing and puffing about bitcoin only being good for illicit behaviours, is well-poisioning, and need to stfu - plain and simple, as cold hard cash can buy that stuff, too.
 
2013-08-14 08:59:59 AM  

MelGoesOnTour: JacobDavidWatson: MelGoesOnTour: Bitcoins?  What a silly concept.

Thanks for that enlightening comment.

Well, then, good luck buying your groceries tonight with your bitcoins.


WTF does that even mean?  Good luck buying groceries with Pounds Sterling if you live in Missouri...
 
2013-08-14 09:00:13 AM  

MattStafford: d23: You can only believe this with a straight face if you believe that they banking industry doesn't have their tentacles in every regulatory office in the land.  And you don't believe that's true then you're EXTREMELY naive.

Too many negatives in this sentence for me to parse it correctly.

If you are suggesting that there is a revolving door between the finance world and the regulatory world, I agree with you 100%.  If you are suggesting that because of this, they are "unregulated" - I would have to completely disagree.  Because of the revolving door, they are heavily regulated, and what's more, they are heavily regulated favorably.

The revolving door between finance and regulatory bodies have created a situation where finance has both free run and favorable regulations and guarantees and implications and whatever from the government, allowing them to take riskier actions without fear of failure.

Let's put it like this - finance industry has a guy in the government.  Guy in government says that all of the banks loans are guaranteed by the government.  This is regulation.  This regulation causes the bank to act in a risky manner, and that bank destroys the economy.  Were those actions the result of a lack of regulation, or the regulation itself?


I understand what you are saying, and don't necessarily disagree with it, but the question still remains why anyone had assumed bitcoins would be immune to this regulation in the first place.

Many of us are still stuck on seeing this as:

1. hey lets invent a new currency so we don't have to deal with gov regulations!
2. currency gains value because everyone believes it is unregulated
3. gov says, hold on, why the fark did you think that wouldn't be regulated?

the next step seems pretty obvious:

4. Gov regulates it, since its only real value was it wasn't regulated its value crashes
 
2013-08-14 09:01:43 AM  

uttertosh: NickelP: beats the shiat out of coal town coins and the thousands of other times fake currencies screwed people hard. Sometimes the government really does beat the shiat out of capitalism for protecting the little guy.

You felt screwed over by disney dollars, too, huh? ;-p

theknuckler_33: I'll trade you gobs of heroin for some weapons grade plutonium, please.


Anyone huffing and puffing about bitcoin only being good for illicit behaviours, is well-poisioning, and need to stfu - plain and simple, as cold hard cash can buy that stuff, too.


Maybe you are correct, but I don't see anyone offering any other good uses for it.
 
2013-08-14 09:02:43 AM  
"If what you are doing is legit why would you need a bitcoin? " sounds a bit too close the "If you'r not doing anything illegal then you have nothing to hide" logic that erodes our rights as citizens of the once great U.S.A.

I do understand that the BTC could be regulated HERE in the U.S. for citizens HERE in the U.S.

However, the BTC doesn't work in a way that you can actually regulate it. The best they are going to be able to do is say that you have to disclose your transactions which is ridiculous when you consider that you don't have to do that with your regular transactions.

By regulate, they mean forced cooperation and control.

But the BTC is bigger than that and some Judge is just looking for a shortcut rather than any doing intelligence gathering of their own.
 
2013-08-14 09:07:14 AM  

uttertosh: NickelP: beats the shiat out of coal town coins and the thousands of other times fake currencies screwed people hard. Sometimes the government really does beat the shiat out of capitalism for protecting the little guy.

You felt screwed over by disney dollars, too, huh? ;-p


Not really, I tend to believe disney complied with the appropriate laws and didn't get their panties in a wad if someone suggested that the existing laws would actually apply to them too.

If disney had come out and screamed everyone was being unfair because they expected them to be lawful in their activities then I would have noticed that too.
 
2013-08-14 09:09:01 AM  

NickelP: Maybe you are correct, but I don't see anyone offering any other good uses for it.


https://www.spendbitcoins.com/places/
 
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