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(NextGov)   When in doubt, the lighthouse takes precedence over the GPS   (nextgov.com) divider line 50
    More: Obvious, GPS, nautical chart, U.S. Pacific Fleet  
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5389 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Aug 2013 at 7:17 AM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-14 07:18:37 AM
Actually, the accuracy of GPS is so good that if there is a discrepancy between what GPS says and what you see, you are probably wrong.

Technology is moving faster than you think, subby.
 
2013-08-14 07:20:36 AM
This is the transcript of a radio conversation of a US naval ship with Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October, 1995. Radio conversation released by the Chief of Naval Operations 10-10-95.

Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a Collision.

Canadians: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.

Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course.

Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.

Americans: This is the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest ship in the United States' Atlantic fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that YOU change your course 15 degrees north, that's one five degrees north, or countermeasures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship.

Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call.

/i know but couldn't resist
 
2013-08-14 07:22:55 AM
I see the poutine has been delivered in the thread already, I leave satisfied to go eat egg on toast side by each.
 
2013-08-14 07:23:38 AM

BumpInTheNight: I see the poutine has been delivered in the thread already, I leave satisfied to go eat egg on toast side by each.


Delivered by a Yank, no less. lol
 
2013-08-14 07:24:54 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Actually, the accuracy of GPS is so good that if there is a discrepancy between what GPS says and what you see, you are probably wrong.

Technology is moving faster than you think, subby.


GPS is accurate.

Databases which humans can access...not so much.

/you keep watch for a reason
//ignoring the flashing lights isn't one of them
 
2013-08-14 07:27:05 AM

PunGent: AverageAmericanGuy: Actually, the accuracy of GPS is so good that if there is a discrepancy between what GPS says and what you see, you are probably wrong.

Technology is moving faster than you think, subby.

GPS is accurate.

Databases which humans can access...not so much.

/you keep watch for a reason
//ignoring the flashing lights isn't one of them


If you see a lighthouse, the GPS is wrong if it tells you there aren't any shoals or sandbars or reefs. 100% of the time, the lighthouse is right. Flawless record over THOUSANDS of years.
 
2013-08-14 07:31:20 AM
GPS: "Who you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?"
 
2013-08-14 07:32:02 AM
do they put the duller sailors on minesweepers?  after reading that a bunch of them pointed out the lighthouse, and the others ignored it, I'm thinking of that episode of the Simpsons where Homer joins the naval reserve.

(was Moe at the helm?)
 
2013-08-14 07:35:39 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Actually, the accuracy of GPS is so good that if there is a discrepancy between what GPS says and what you see, you are probably wrong.

Technology is moving faster than you think, subby.


Tell that to the crew of the minesweeper.  I'm surprised they had no paper charts out and the lighthouse was a clue. Too bad for the Captain and crew but the sea does not care about you.

The USCG bridge officers and crew always have paper charts out and Chief of the watch is looking at them in coastal areas, etc. Gotta say that digital GPS is correct 99.9% of the time but no excuse for inattention to detail. Heads up swab jockeys.
 
2013-08-14 07:39:14 AM

lazymojo: do they put the duller sailors on minesweepers?  after reading that a bunch of them pointed out the lighthouse, and the others ignored it, I'm thinking of that episode of the Simpsons where Homer joins the naval reserve.

(was Moe at the helm?)


I'm betting the navigation training that if you can see a lighthouse light it means DANGER isn't stressed in an era of "flawless GPS". It'd be interesting to know if the bridge watchstanders relayed the lighthouse warning more than once and with urgency:

"Lighthouse spotted off the port bow!"
"Lighthouse still in sight!"

or was it, "Huh. A lighthouse," and that's it.

It's not like you only have moments to react, or the lighthouse would be fairly useless.
 
2013-08-14 07:41:14 AM
I'm not sure how the targets, err, surface sailors run navigation, but on subs you check a MULTITUDE of charts before you set up your nav plot, and any navigational hazard that appears on one and not the others gets verified (USS San Francisco not withstanding).

Relying on electronic charts alone is asking for it.
 
2013-08-14 07:41:46 AM

scumshine: I'm surprised they had no paper charts out and the lighthouse was a clue. Too bad for the Captain and crew but the sea does not care about you.


IIRC, the updated CIC got rid of the big chart table. You have computers now, right?
 
2013-08-14 07:43:07 AM

Uisce Beatha: I'm not sure how the targets, err, surface sailors run navigation, but on subs you check a MULTITUDE of charts before you set up your nav plot, and any navigational hazard that appears on one and not the others gets verified (USS San Francisco not withstanding).

Relying on electronic charts alone is asking for it.


A glass of the Paddy with you sir.
 
2013-08-14 07:48:26 AM
My company does survival analysis for the Navy. They hand is the design, we find all of the places where they (or more frequently the contractors) didn't think that cunning plan all of the way through.

Part of what we do is go back over past battles, accidents, and incidents. There's a fair mix of courage under fire and facepalm in all of them.

(Usually just a question of whether the facepalm was at the strategic of the tactical level.)
 
2013-08-14 07:48:47 AM

Uisce Beatha: I'm not sure how the targets, err, surface sailors run navigation, but on subs you check a MULTITUDE of charts before you set up your nav plot, and any navigational hazard that appears on one and not the others gets verified (USS San Francisco not withstanding).

Relying on electronic charts alone is asking for it.


I'm impressed the San Francisco event was survivable.
 
2013-08-14 07:49:31 AM

vygramul: scumshine: I'm surprised they had no paper charts out and the lighthouse was a clue. Too bad for the Captain and crew but the sea does not care about you.

IIRC, the updated CIC got rid of the big chart table. You have computers now, right?


Comps, yep. Chart table is always behind the wheel somewhere. On the USCGC Healy, its a small compartment even. Lots of landscape beyond the Arctic Circle. :)
 
2013-08-14 07:54:04 AM

Evil Twin Skippy: My company does survival analysis for the Navy. They hand is the design, we find all of the places where they (or more frequently the contractors) didn't think that cunning plan all of the way through.

Part of what we do is go back over past battles, accidents, and incidents. There's a fair mix of courage under fire and facepalm in all of them.

(Usually just a question of whether the facepalm was at the strategic of the tactical level.)


Ever have the pleasure of looking at a blue-on-blue?
 
2013-08-14 07:55:25 AM
Sounds like GPS wasn't the problem, the GIS that the chart was based on was faulty due to bad commercial imagery (or bad interpretation of commercial imagery by the maker of the digital chart).
 
2013-08-14 07:57:33 AM

scumshine: vygramul: scumshine: I'm surprised they had no paper charts out and the lighthouse was a clue. Too bad for the Captain and crew but the sea does not care about you.

IIRC, the updated CIC got rid of the big chart table. You have computers now, right?

Comps, yep. Chart table is always behind the wheel somewhere. On the USCGC Healy, its a small compartment even. Lots of landscape beyond the Arctic Circle. :)


I was unclear: I was talking about the minesweeper CIC. I ought to find my notes from the last exercise I was on. Good God the range in crew quality between crews was substantial (Minesweeper crews are assigned to a crew, not a ship, and the crew is plugged-into whatever ship to which they're deploying.)
 
2013-08-14 07:58:29 AM

pag1107: Sounds like GPS wasn't the problem, the GIS that the chart was based on was faulty due to bad commercial imagery (or bad interpretation of commercial imagery by the maker of the digital chart).


The problem was one of training: if you see a lighthouse, that should dominate your attention until you no longer see a lighthouse.
 
2013-08-14 08:10:25 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Actually, the accuracy of GPS is so good that if there is a discrepancy between what GPS says and what you see, you are probably wrong.

Technology is moving faster than you think, subby.


unless the chart is wrong then you just look like a moron for not watching where you're going out the damned window.
 
2013-08-14 08:11:09 AM

vygramul: pag1107: Sounds like GPS wasn't the problem, the GIS that the chart was based on was faulty due to bad commercial imagery (or bad interpretation of commercial imagery by the maker of the digital chart).

The problem was one of training: if you see a lighthouse, that should dominate your attention until you no longer see a lighthouse.


Yeah, but lighthouses are old school no one needs to know what they mean any more.  Lighthouses are just for tourists now, they don't get to control the sea any more.

/spfff stupid lighthouses, they never sailed so what do they know
 
2013-08-14 08:13:07 AM

Evil Twin Skippy: ...
Part of what we do is go back over past battles, accidents, and incidents. There's a fair mix of courage under fire and facepalm in all of them...


That's a metaphor for all of life.  And you get paid for that?
 
2013-08-14 08:16:01 AM
scumshine: A glass of the Paddy with you sir.

Slainte

vygramul: I'm impressed the San Francisco event was survivable.

It almost wasn't. The crew did some very inventive and unplanned of actions to keep themselves afloat and underway. Heroic and genius in some cases.

vygramul: The problem was one of training: if you see a lighthouse, that should dominate your attention until you no longer see a lighthouse.

Aside from the issue of over-reliance on just one set of charts, THIS
 
2013-08-14 08:19:33 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Actually, the accuracy of GPS is so good that if there is a discrepancy between what GPS says and what you see, you are probably wrong.

Technology is moving faster than you think, subby.


yeah but over-reliance on one tool is the mark of a moron
 
2013-08-14 08:46:58 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Actually, the accuracy of GPS is so good that if there is a discrepancy between what GPS says and what you see, you are probably wrong.

Technology is moving faster than you think, subby.


You know how I know you didn't read the article...?
 
2013-08-14 08:50:32 AM

thetubameister: AverageAmericanGuy: Actually, the accuracy of GPS is so good that if there is a discrepancy between what GPS says and what you see, you are probably wrong.

Technology is moving faster than you think, subby.

You know how I know you didn't read the article...?


Because it's pretty much cliche at this point?
 
2013-08-14 08:53:43 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Actually, the accuracy of GPS is so good that if there is a discrepancy between what GPS says and what you see, you are probably wrong.

Technology is moving faster than you think, subby.


GPS told them the position of the boat, but it knew nothing about the reef. The maps had the reef in the wrong spot.
The failing was the crew having 100% trust in the maps...

The crew should have been backing up the maps with visual sightings of any landmarks they could get. That and a little caution would have prevented the whole mishap.
 
2013-08-14 08:54:18 AM
Old joke:

Captian: We're sinking, but I have good news and bad news.
Passengers: What's the good news?
Captian: We're only 1/4 of a mile from land.
Passengers: What's the bad news?
Captian: It's straight down.
 
2013-08-14 09:11:27 AM
Tubbataha Reef in the Sulu Sea

vaughtwoodworks.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-08-14 09:21:57 AM
Remember, the lighthouse ALWAYS has right of way.
 
2013-08-14 09:48:36 AM
I had to be driven to a hospital from the nursing home I was stuck in.  The driver, an immigrant, relied entirely on GPS navigation.  He drove by the hospital three times, with the hospital sign clearly visible and the street address marked out in big numbers.
 
2013-08-14 09:58:10 AM
GPS in question:

i521.photobucket.com
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-08-14 10:28:56 AM
This is beyond stupid if true and fully accurate.
Who the hell has a ship of any size without farking RADAR?

GPS is wonderful for shiat that is known and stays put, but what about the myriad of fools who will gleefully cross your path?

With today's technology if you are relying on 1 source as a sole authority you deserve whatever you get.
 
2013-08-14 10:34:53 AM

gja: This is beyond stupid if true and fully accurate.
Who the hell has a ship of any size without farking RADAR?

GPS is wonderful for shiat that is known and stays put, but what about the myriad of fools who will gleefully cross your path?

With today's technology if you are relying on 1 source as a sole authority you deserve whatever you get.


Well, it has radar. I'm not sure how that would have helped here.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-08-14 11:07:35 AM

vygramul: gja: This is beyond stupid if true and fully accurate.
Who the hell has a ship of any size without farking RADAR?

GPS is wonderful for shiat that is known and stays put, but what about the myriad of fools who will gleefully cross your path?

With today's technology if you are relying on 1 source as a sole authority you deserve whatever you get.

Well, it has radar. I'm not sure how that would have helped here.


Radar is for all things above surface, side-scanning sonar units for the stuff under surface.
I should have specified that.
My buddy has a 34' trawler with both. Anything bigger than a soccer ball above water, or anything bigger than a six-pack of beer below water isn't going to surprise him.
And this was a Naval vessel? Really? Not like they have any lack of (our) money to spend on stuff that could assure this sort of thing doesn't happen.
 
2013-08-14 12:25:24 PM

gja: This is beyond stupid if true and fully accurate.
Who the hell has a ship of any size without farking RADAR?

25.media.tumblr.com

 
2013-08-14 12:29:44 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: Actually, the accuracy of GPS is so good that if there is a discrepancy between what GPS says and what you see, you are probably wrong.

Technology is moving faster than you think, subby.


It's certainly moving faster than human intelligence, which doesn't bother to look out the farking window anymore.
 
2013-08-14 12:34:57 PM

vygramul: pag1107: Sounds like GPS wasn't the problem, the GIS that the chart was based on was faulty due to bad commercial imagery (or bad interpretation of commercial imagery by the maker of the digital chart).

The problem was one of training: if you see a lighthouse, that should dominate your attention until you no longer see a lighthouse.


This. Prudent seamanship depends on using ALL navigational tools available. Not just the ones on screens.

For this to happen, that D-list bridge crew had to ignore the forward-looking sonar, the top-end radar that would've shown reef surf, and failed to post watchstanders on the bridge wings, plus ignored the lighthouses that would have revealed the chart's inaccuracy.

Everyone in that ship's command chain should be jailed and/or busted back to garbage scow. There can be no excuse for this kind of carelessness on a working naval vessel...particularly a freakin' minesweeper, which, by definition, needs to know precisely where it is, because...mines.
 
2013-08-14 01:00:48 PM
Never it mentioned in any of the articles about this that I've read. But was it traveling alone? Don't minesweepers normally travel with a pack? They aren't known to be combative ships. And why was it traveling in area that it wasn't familar with?
 
2013-08-14 01:06:05 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: Actually, the accuracy of GPS is so good that if there is a discrepancy between what GPS says and what you see, you are probably wrong.

Technology is moving faster than you think, subby.


Are you a troll or a dumbass?

Forgot about the guy who died after he drove his car on an old logging road cause the GPS told him to? That's not the only case of somebody dying because they got lost due to GPS.

Use multiple tools - car GPS, phone GPS, road atlas, common sense.

\mutters about BF trusting GPS over common sense. Oh FFS just cut across on this main road to the Interstate instead of whatever convoluted thing the damn computer beyotch is telling you.
 
2013-08-14 01:06:45 PM
forgot to mention, I always carry a compass (analog) in my lil' coin purse. You never know.
 
2013-08-14 01:18:50 PM
Wonder how that went down...

"Sir, I see a lighthouse."

"The  map says we're in 400 feet of water, the lighthouse is probably confused.  Maintain course."
 
2013-08-14 01:42:09 PM

Valiente: vygramul: pag1107: Sounds like GPS wasn't the problem, the GIS that the chart was based on was faulty due to bad commercial imagery (or bad interpretation of commercial imagery by the maker of the digital chart).

The problem was one of training: if you see a lighthouse, that should dominate your attention until you no longer see a lighthouse.

This. Prudent seamanship depends on using ALL navigational tools available. Not just the ones on screens.

For this to happen, that D-list bridge crew had to ignore the forward-looking sonar, the top-end radar that would've shown reef surf, and failed to post watchstanders on the bridge wings, plus ignored the lighthouses that would have revealed the chart's inaccuracy.

Everyone in that ship's command chain should be jailed and/or busted back to garbage scow. There can be no excuse for this kind of carelessness on a working naval vessel...particularly a freakin' minesweeper, which, by definition, needs to know precisely where it is, because...mines.


This wasn't a DDG - it was a minesweeper. And the bridge crew might have been just fine. Sometimes, it just takes an asshole Captain.
 
2013-08-14 01:58:26 PM
/you keep watch for a reason
//ignoring the flashing lights isn't one of them


Especially if you're in the red zone ....
 
2013-08-14 02:43:58 PM

MemeSlave: Evil Twin Skippy: ...
Part of what we do is go back over past battles, accidents, and incidents. There's a fair mix of courage under fire and facepalm in all of them...

That's a metaphor for all of life.  And you get paid for that?


Hey, the best experts simply point out the obvious that you had missed.

That said, our software can do things like run a scenario 1000 different ways to discover what affect a failure here or a heroic act there would have had on the outcome. We can also test the same ship conditions over and over against every weapon the navy has data for.
 
2013-08-14 02:47:29 PM
shanteyman:
Especially if you're in the red zone ....


There is no stopping in the red zone.  The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-08-14 03:09:22 PM

shanteyman: /you keep watch for a reason
//ignoring the flashing lights isn't one of them

Especially if you're in the red zone ....


Or if you're in the....
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-08-14 03:27:57 PM
The GPS is near perfect.  The chart, not so much.  I know it's difficult for some of you to understand the difference.

However, the light house is infallible.  It's always on land, and it's always a sign of danger to ships.  This isn't something that any sailor can possibly fail to know.
 
2013-08-15 01:11:31 PM
phrawgh - that story is so old it is in print with an unnamed battleship (if I recall my Snopes a-rightly).
Original probably had Cleopatra's barge trying to order the LightHouse @ Alexandria around!
 
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