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(CBS Sports)   Pete Rose: "I should have picked drugs"   (cbssports.com) divider line 154
    More: Amusing, Alex Rodriguez  
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1597 clicks; posted to Sports » on 13 Aug 2013 at 9:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-13 11:10:50 AM  

EyeballKid: Lifeless: That's better than Reggie Jackson, and by a large margin. If that's all you've got keeping him out, then your argument falls before the first hurdle.

Reggie Jackson actually won something on a team once. Big diff.


I was unaware that we changed the game of baseball to be a one-on-one competition.

Man, Ken Griffey is almost as terrible at baseball as Ted Williams.  That guy sucked so bad he only made the postseason once.
 
2013-08-13 11:14:37 AM  
Self-righteous baseball writers need to get over themselves and their PED witchhunt. No one else gives a shiat. Sorry, but baseball records aren't sacred. It's entertainment. It's no better than the WWE and should be treated appropriately.
 
2013-08-13 11:14:56 AM  

EyeballKid: chimp_ninja: He was in the conversation for the best non-Bonds player in baseball for a full decade. He then got injured, added 5-6 partial years of decent baseball, and then tacked on 4 years of meh.

5 to 6 partial years of decent baseball? That's a kind way to re-brand "played like shiat and his body gave out after every All-Star break."


From 2001-2005, he hit .277/.363/.533, averaging ~90 games per season.  That's much more than "decent baseball" for the parts of seasons he was healthy enough to play in, except the Reds kept him in CF when he should have moved to RF, and he was defensively overmatched.
 
2013-08-13 11:17:19 AM  
I can't believe there's actually a legitimate discussion on Ken Griffey Jr. not being in the hall of fame.
You baseball fans have no idea what you want.
 
2013-08-13 11:17:28 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Did Pete ever bet against his team?

Then what's the problem exactly?  Besides the 1919 Black Sox and a bunch of panty twisters with their shorts in knots?


The problem is that for the better part of 30 years he walked past a sign in the clubhouse that said 'If you bet on baseball, you will be banned for life'(all the clubhouses have them) and then he bet on baseball. Then he was shocked that he was banned or life.
 
2013-08-13 11:19:14 AM  

falcon176: I can't believe there's actually a legitimate discussion on Ken Griffey Jr. not being in the hall of fame.
You baseball fans have no idea what you want.


I didn't realize the one butthurt fan of a team he injured himself with was a BBWAA voter.

/But he only hit .284!
 
2013-08-13 11:20:58 AM  

The Bestest: Will his hobbled years hurt his HoF considerations? Sure, as they should, but how can you call someone still being considered a "bust"?


I doubt it.  If Pete Rose hadn't gambled, he would have no problem getting in on the first ballot, and he tacked on a ton of hobbled years.  Heck, as a player-manager, he was putting himself into games at his team's expense, so he had even less excuse.

Ditto Andruw Jones, who I also think should make the Hall, but I admit is a much more borderline call than Griffey.  Defense tends to be largely unappreciated, but Jones has a "Brooks Robinson" case, and he was a better overall player than some of the other glove-first inductees (Maranville, Mazeroski, etc.).
 
2013-08-13 11:21:59 AM  

Lifeless: falcon176: I can't believe there's actually a legitimate discussion on Ken Griffey Jr. not being in the hall of fame.
You baseball fans have no idea what you want.

I didn't realize the one butthurt fan of a team he injured himself with was a BBWAA voter.

/But he only hit .284!


Based on last years vote he's not only a BBWAA voter, but he's one of the smarter and less butthurt ones
 
2013-08-13 11:23:55 AM  

falcon176: I can't believe there's actually a legitimate discussion on Ken Griffey Jr. not being in the hall of fame.
You baseball fans have no idea what you want.


They want to go back in time to the good old days before they let the negros in
 
2013-08-13 11:24:55 AM  

falcon176: I can't believe there's actually a legitimate discussion on Ken Griffey Jr. not being in the hall of fame.
You baseball fans have no idea what you want.


There's no legitimate discussion.  It's just EyeballKid.

He's still trying to figure out how that .276-hitting shortstop from Baltimore made it in.  Or that .267-hitting catcher from Cincinnati.  This one guy even got into the HoR by only hitting .279 Rickeys, which is 5 Rickeys lower than Griffey.
 
2013-08-13 11:26:28 AM  

chimp_ninja: This one guy even got into the HoR by only hitting .279 Rickeys, which is 5 Rickeys lower than Griffey.


I thought the Rickey was a measure of total bases, not average.
 
2013-08-13 11:28:11 AM  
chimp_ninja:

There's no legitimate discussion.  It's just EyeballKid.

He's still trying to figure out how that .276-hitting shortstop from Baltimore made it in.  Or that .267-hitting catcher from Cincinnati.  This one guy even got into the HoR by only hitting .279 Rickeys, which is 5 Rickeys lower than Griffey.


Unlike Ken Griffey Jr., who was a consistently good player on commercials and that Super Nintendo game, those players were capable of playing full seasons, sometimes one right after the other. A real head-scratcher, I know.
 
2013-08-13 11:29:11 AM  
Pete Rose was my boyhood hero.  My mom used a laundry marker on a white tee shirt to make a Pete Rose jersey for me, how cute is that?  Pete deserved to be un-banned and put in the Hall of Fame.

However, this is Pete Rose's corked bat.

img.gawkerassets.com
 
2013-08-13 11:29:29 AM  
Fortunately next year's hall of fame idiocy will just be "ok who's the jackass that didn't vote for Maddux"
 
2013-08-13 11:30:06 AM  

falcon176: Based on last years vote he's not only a BBWAA voter, but he's one of the smarter and less butthurt ones


Bonds/Clemens tells you all you need to know about known PED users.  Strictly by the numbers, they're among the very best to ever play.  And the vote wasn't close.

But not voting in guys like Trammell, Bagwell, Piazza, Raines, and Edgar was just dumb.  And Kenny Lofton falling off the ballot entirely in his first year was shameful.  He's incredibly underappreciated.  I could see him not getting in, but he should have been given more time and consideration.
 
2013-08-13 11:30:49 AM  
browneye: In his autobiography My Prison Without Bars, published by Rodale Press on January 8, 2004

He should be banned just for that book. That was the worst thing I have read.
 
2013-08-13 11:31:10 AM  

EyeballKid: Lifeless: That's better than Reggie Jackson, and by a large margin. If that's all you've got keeping him out, then your argument falls before the first hurdle.

Reggie Jackson actually won something on a team once. Big diff.

All the pro-Jr.'s arguments boil down to are "well, he was injured so often he clearly wasn't taken 'roids" and "mah childhood."


No. They boil down to the fact that his career numbers show he was one of best power hitters ever, while also being an excellent defender. Batting average doesn't have much to do with how voters judge power hitters. And, in Jr.'s case the argument for the HOF isn't even a particularly tough one.

If you had a career parallel Griffey's and you lastest 22 years -- many cut short by injuries -- hitting .256, with an OBP of .376, slugging .503 and mashing about 26 home runs a year (573 total) with decent defense, you're most likely gonna end up a hall of famer eventually unless you have any hint of PED use -- even if you don't win a world series. You just had Harmon Killebrew's career, by the way.

Jr.'s numbers are better across the board.
 
2013-08-13 11:31:50 AM  

EyeballKid: Unlike Ken Griffey Jr., who was a consistently good player on commercials and that Super Nintendo game, those players were capable of playing full seasons, sometimes one right after the other. A real head-scratcher, I know.


Sheesh, if Nick Johnson ever played for the Reds, you'd be comparing him to Hitler.
 
2013-08-13 11:33:13 AM  

EyeballKid: The Bestest: ..a guy 6th on the all-time homer list is a bust?

Ultimately didn't fulfill his career potential sure, but hardly a bust.

He was a great player for 10 years.
He played for 20 years.
You can't act like the shiat half of his career didn't happen, unless the HOF has sections for partial careers. Among those inductees could be Will Clark, for those years he was good with the Giants, or Tommy John before the famous surgery, and Mark Fidyrich.

Career BA: .284. Really? That's a Hall of Famer?


8/10.
 
2013-08-13 11:33:59 AM  

Lucky LaRue: Pete Rose isn't banned for gambling; he's banned for being an insufferable, self-entitled prick.  That isn't to say he wasn't a great ball player, but his narcissism has alienated the people who get to make the "ban / no-ban" decision.


Barry Bonds wasn't? A-Rod isn't? If personality was a reason for banning, who wouldn't be banned?

The difference between Rose's deeds and the ones listed is gambling throws a shadow of fixing over the game. Whereas juicing to the point of increasing your performances puts butts in the seat and, make of this what you will, beating your wife doesn't affect the game so long as it isn't a "serious" beating.
 
2013-08-13 11:36:50 AM  

The Bestest: chimp_ninja: This one guy even got into the HoR by only hitting .279 Rickeys, which is 5 Rickeys lower than Griffey.

 
I thought the Rickey was a measure of total bases, not average.

I have it on good horrible authority that batting average is the only way to judge a player.  Maybe World Series wins, but then I can't tell if Ted Williams is awesome or horrible.
 
2013-08-13 11:38:55 AM  

chimp_ninja: The Bestest: chimp_ninja: This one guy even got into the HoR by only hitting .279 Rickeys, which is 5 Rickeys lower than Griffey.
 
I thought the Rickey was a measure of total bases, not average.

I have it on good horrible authority that batting average is the only way to judge a player.  Maybe World Series wins, but then I can't tell if Ted Williams is awesome or horrible.


Also getting injured but only in non-consecutive years.  So we have to take Joe Morgan out of the Hall and replace him with Jeff Blauser.
 
2013-08-13 11:39:01 AM  

Frederick: It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.


Correct.

Frederick: Whether PED's actually give someone an advantage over another on the field of play is debatable.


Not really.  It is debatable in only the loosest sense.
 
2013-08-13 11:40:21 AM  

Lifeless: chimp_ninja: The Bestest: chimp_ninja: This one guy even got into the HoR by only hitting .279 Rickeys, which is 5 Rickeys lower than Griffey.
 
I thought the Rickey was a measure of total bases, not average.

I have it on good horrible authority that batting average is the only way to judge a player.  Maybe World Series wins, but then I can't tell if Ted Williams is awesome or horrible.

Also getting injured but only in non-consecutive years.  So we have to take Joe Morgan out of the Hall and replace him with Jeff Blauser.


I assume if you were music writers, A-Ha would go into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame because "Take on Me" was such a good song.
 
2013-08-13 11:40:44 AM  

chimp_ninja: The Bestest: Will his hobbled years hurt his HoF considerations? Sure, as they should, but how can you call someone still being considered a "bust"?

I doubt it.  If Pete Rose hadn't gambled, he would have no problem getting in on the first ballot, and he tacked on a ton of hobbled years.  Heck, as a player-manager, he was putting himself into games at his team's expense, so he had even less excuse.

Ditto Andruw Jones, who I also think should make the Hall, but I admit is a much more borderline call than Griffey.  Defense tends to be largely unappreciated, but Jones has a "Brooks Robinson" case, and he was a better overall player than some of the other glove-first inductees (Maranville, Mazeroski, etc.).


Jones really, really should get in.  Advanced metrics say he might be the single best defensive OF of all time.  And he's got 400 something home runs.

But people don't really think of defense and offense at the same time.  You have a few glove-first guys, as you listed.  And then everyone else is bat only.

Also, Jones will inexplicably be punished for being too young.  He came up at 19 and fell apart at 31.  People will say "oh, he was lazy and fat."  Had he come up at 24 and fallen apart at 35, nobody would have a problem with his career.  It's really strange.

Also, fools will say that a guy like Jim Edmonds was a better glove because he made more diving catches.
 
2013-08-13 11:41:25 AM  

TeamEd: If you had a career parallel Griffey's and you lastest 22 years -- many cut short by injuries -- hitting .256, with an OBP of .376, slugging .503 and mashing about 26 home runs a year (573 total) with decent defense, you're most likely gonna end up a hall of famer eventually unless you have any hint of PED use -- even if you don't win a world series. You just had Harmon Killebrew's career, by the way.


Yup.  Mize might even be a better comp.  Hard to knock a multi-faceted player for hitting 630 home runs when the HoF has established that one-dimensional guys with 500 qualify.

I'm sure EyeballKid will be in shortly to complain about how that .262-hitting guy from the Cardinals got in.  I mean, he only hit 28 HR.
 
2013-08-13 11:42:04 AM  

EyeballKid: Lifeless: chimp_ninja: The Bestest: chimp_ninja: This one guy even got into the HoR by only hitting .279 Rickeys, which is 5 Rickeys lower than Griffey.
 
I thought the Rickey was a measure of total bases, not average.

I have it on good horrible authority that batting average is the only way to judge a player.  Maybe World Series wins, but then I can't tell if Ted Williams is awesome or horrible.

Also getting injured but only in non-consecutive years.  So we have to take Joe Morgan out of the Hall and replace him with Jeff Blauser.

I assume if you were music writers, A-Ha would go into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame because "Take on Me" was such a good song.


And you'd vote them in because it was a hit.
 
2013-08-13 11:42:27 AM  

Slow To Return: machoprogrammer: And why is one banned substance ok but others are not? Is Gaylord Perry's spitball cheating? Is a player getting Lasik cheating?

The answer to this question is probably the same as the answer to the Pete Rose question.


The spitter was legal for what 30 years or so until the 1920's.  

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1080112/
 
2013-08-13 11:44:02 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Slow To Return: machoprogrammer: And why is one banned substance ok but others are not? Is Gaylord Perry's spitball cheating? Is a player getting Lasik cheating?

The answer to this question is probably the same as the answer to the Pete Rose question.

The spitter was legal for what 30 years or so until the 1920's.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1080112/


Gaylord Perry pitched from 1962 to 1983.
 
2013-08-13 11:46:15 AM  

EyeballKid: I assume if you were music writers, A-Ha would go into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame because "Take on Me" was such a good song.


Griffey played in 2,671 games.  Exactly 30 players in history have played in more.

He hit 630 HR.  Exactly 5 players have hit more.

12 have more total bases.  33 players have reached base more times.  7 have won more Gold Gloves.

You seem to think he was a flash in the pan.  Were you born in 2005?
 
2013-08-13 11:47:49 AM  

EyeballKid: Lifeless: chimp_ninja: The Bestest: chimp_ninja: This one guy even got into the HoR by only hitting .279 Rickeys, which is 5 Rickeys lower than Griffey.
 
I thought the Rickey was a measure of total bases, not average.

I have it on good horrible authority that batting average is the only way to judge a player.  Maybe World Series wins, but then I can't tell if Ted Williams is awesome or horrible.

Also getting injured but only in non-consecutive years.  So we have to take Joe Morgan out of the Hall and replace him with Jeff Blauser.

I assume if you were music writers, A-Ha would go into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame because "Take on Me" was such a good song.


A-Ha only had one good song. Griffey had way more than one good season.

You're blaming a guy for getting hurt. Often, sure, I agree. But his numbers were STILL amazing. 6th all time in home runs isn't enough for you?

Next thing you know Mario Lemieux shouldn't be in the Hockey HoF because he had his career shortened by injury too.
 
2013-08-13 11:49:38 AM  

The Bestest: chimp_ninja: This one guy even got into the HoR by only hitting .279 Rickeys, which is 5 Rickeys lower than Griffey.

I thought the Rickey was a measure of total bases, not average.


The Rickey is actually a measure of pure awesomeness
 
2013-08-13 11:51:00 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Slow To Return: machoprogrammer: And why is one banned substance ok but others are not? Is Gaylord Perry's spitball cheating? Is a player getting Lasik cheating?

The answer to this question is probably the same as the answer to the Pete Rose question.

The spitter was legal for what 30 years or so until the 1920's.  

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1080112/


Perry played way after the 20s
 
2013-08-13 11:52:35 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Frederick: It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

Correct.

Frederick: Whether PED's actually give someone an advantage over another on the field of play is debatable.

Not really.  It is debatable in only the loosest sense.


If steroids make you better at baseball why do so many guys who suck test positive

Hell, what about all the people who take them and never even get to the low minor leagues? Steroids are a health and safety issue, not "Holy shiat they make baseball too easy" issue
 
2013-08-13 11:52:53 AM  

chimp_ninja: Griffey played in 2,671 games.  Exactly 30 players in history have played in more.

He hit 630 HR.  Exactly 5 players have hit more.

12 have more total bases.  33 players have reached base more times.  7 have won more Gold Gloves.


He was on the cover of 4 video games. Only A-Rod (5) and Jeter (9) have more.
 
2013-08-13 11:54:07 AM  

EyeballKid: Lifeless: chimp_ninja: The Bestest: chimp_ninja: This one guy even got into the HoR by only hitting .279 Rickeys, which is 5 Rickeys lower than Griffey.
 
I thought the Rickey was a measure of total bases, not average.

I have it on good horrible authority that batting average is the only way to judge a player.  Maybe World Series wins, but then I can't tell if Ted Williams is awesome or horrible.

Also getting injured but only in non-consecutive years.  So we have to take Joe Morgan out of the Hall and replace him with Jeff Blauser.

I assume if you were music writers, A-Ha would go into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame because "Take on Me" was such a good song.


Eh, "The Sun Always Shines On TV" is their magnum opus.

/Also,the Rock & Roll HOF is a bigger joke than even the damned WWE HOF.
 
2013-08-13 12:04:30 PM  

chimp_ninja: You seem to think he was a flash in the pan.  Were you born in 2005?


He, like most of the American media and sports public, likely thinks that Seattle is somewhere with a view of Russia and  is surprised they have a team.
 
2013-08-13 12:05:55 PM  

The Bestest: [Griffey] was on the cover of 4 video games. Only A-Rod (5) and Jeter (9) have more.


Jeter (2) also leads that pack in Calm Eyes.
 
2013-08-13 12:14:10 PM  

ElwoodCuse: If steroids make you better at baseball why do so many guys who suck test positive


Because they can elevate guys from "permanent AA player" to "fringe MLB player", and that's quite an incentive.  The 2012 MLB minimum was $480K/yr.

Hell, what about all the people who take them and never even get to the low minor leagues?

That's the real tragedy.  At least A-Rod has a Scrooge McDuck vault to cover his inevitable medical expenses.  Untold numbers of no-name high-school, college, and low-minors guys use, hoping to break through to the next level, and they get all the health problems and no payoff to help with them.  There are only 725 major-league jobs out there.  (750 if you count Miami.)  Tens of thousands of MLB-wannabe users can't all win.

Steroids are a health and safety issue, not "Holy shiat they make baseball too easy" issue

No one is claiming that any person on the street can take PEDs and sign a MLB contract next year.  The claim is that they allow you to work out longer and build strength more rapidly than if you don't use, and can push "very good" baseball players towards "MLB-ready", or "MLB-ready" to "All-Star" at the expense of their long-term health.
 
2013-08-13 12:18:02 PM  

chimp_ninja: At least A-Rod has a Scrooge McDuck vault to cover his inevitable medical expenses.


Even if A-Rod were to be banned tomorrow and his Yankee contract essentially voided, he still gets $40M in Bobby Bonilla style deferred money from the Rangers.
 
2013-08-13 12:18:53 PM  
Q: How did kid let his parents know he was going into the Turkish consignment business during his intervention?

A:  Mom and Dad.  I used rugs.
 
2013-08-13 12:19:38 PM  

ElwoodCuse: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Frederick: It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

Correct.

Frederick: Whether PED's actually give someone an advantage over another on the field of play is debatable.

Not really.  It is debatable in only the loosest sense.

If steroids make you better at baseball why do so many guys who suck test positive

Hell, what about all the people who take them and never even get to the low minor leagues? Steroids are a health and safety issue, not "Holy shiat they make baseball too easy" issue


Steroids make you better. If you suck without steriods you will probably suck a little less with them.

There is a much greater incentive for poor players to use steroids as even a little improvement could put them over the top. And that players using them don't make the majors doesn't mean that steroids don't work, it means the guys weren't good enough to make it even with the benefit of steroids.
 
2013-08-13 12:20:31 PM  
There are seriously people on this earth who think Ken Griffey Jr. doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame?

Wow.
 
2013-08-13 12:25:15 PM  

Earguy: Pete Rose was my boyhood hero.  My mom used a laundry marker on a white tee shirt to make a Pete Rose jersey for me, how cute is that?  Pete deserved to be un-banned and put in the Hall of Fame.

However, this is Pete Rose's corked bat.

[img.gawkerassets.com image 640x480]


pufone.org1.bp.blogspot.com
What he uses to cork it bat, now. And his HoF consolation prize.,
 
2013-08-13 12:26:51 PM  

sigdiamond2000: There are seriously people on this earth who think Ken Griffey Jr. doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame?

Wow.


He's no Joe Carter.
 
2013-08-13 12:29:36 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Did Pete ever bet against his team?

Then what's the problem exactly?  Besides the 1919 Black Sox and a bunch of panty twisters with their shorts in knots?


I know there's already been several examples thrown at you, but in general, MLB baseball is probably the ONE sport where a manager is a f*cking idiot to seriously manage every single regular season game to win at all costs, regardless if he bet his house on it or not.

Even the best teams with the best pitchers will have that one game every couple weeks where their starter just has no command on any of his pitches and you find yourself down 10 runs by the 5th inning or even worse. While teams will come back from those deficits from time to time, you have long relievers in your bullpen for a reason. Constantly using up innings on your best set-up relievers time and time again in otherwise hopeless looking situations only burns them out over the season.
 
2013-08-13 12:30:19 PM  
Pete Rose: "I should have picked drugs"

And ODed on them to save us all the years of sniveling and whining.
 
2013-08-13 12:38:45 PM  

machoprogrammer: Waldo Pepper: Slow To Return: machoprogrammer: And why is one banned substance ok but others are not? Is Gaylord Perry's spitball cheating? Is a player getting Lasik cheating?

The answer to this question is probably the same as the answer to the Pete Rose question.

The spitter was legal for what 30 years or so until the 1920's.  

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1080112/

Perry played way after the 20s


Yes I realize Perry played way after the 20's.  My point is the spitter once had a place in baseball and was perfectly legal, plus unlike Steroids and Gambling, throwing the spitter is one of the "acceptable as long you don't caught" kinds o cheating. How many of the past basketball HOFamers traveled numerous times during a game, before the NFL got all uppity how many football players did not so legal acts as with pretty much all major team sports.

The reason this type of "cheating" isn't a major deal is that it doesn't really affect the integrity of the game. If Gaylord Perry was a horrible pitcher he would have never lasted as long as he did and there is no way he could get away with throwing the spitter every pitch or even every game.

A 16 year kid won't harm himself by learning to throw the spitter or any of the other acceptable cheats.  That same 16 year old taking PED's isn't a good thing
 
2013-08-13 12:42:25 PM  

Killer Cars: but in general, MLB baseball is probably the ONE sport where a manager is a f*cking idiot to seriously manage every single regular season game to win at all costs, regardless if he bet his house on it or not.


Nah, it's true in the NBA and NHL as well - they're called "schedule losses".
 
2013-08-13 12:45:43 PM  
On August 24, 1989, Rose voluntarily accepted a permanent place on baseball's ineligible list

And then continued to lie about it.  fark him.

And we arent seriously talking about Griffey not being a HOFer are we?
 
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