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(CBS Sports)   Pete Rose: "I should have picked drugs"   (cbssports.com) divider line 154
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1597 clicks; posted to Sports » on 13 Aug 2013 at 9:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-13 03:13:57 AM  
It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.  Gambling is not the same as PED's.  Whether PED's actually give someone an advantage over another on the field of play is debatable.  What is not debatable is the ethics of a manager or player wagering money on the outcome of games -especially games they are participating in.

(Pete Rose says he never bet on his team -that may be true but who knows except his bookie?)
 
2013-08-13 07:58:21 AM  
No shiat.  he's be in the hall of fame by now, praised as a hero by most.
 
2013-08-13 08:20:53 AM  

ManateeGag: No shiat.  he's be in the hall of fame by now, praised as a hero by most.


Pete Rose isn't banned for gambling; he's banned for being an insufferable, self-entitled prick.  That isn't to say he wasn't a great ball player, but his narcissism has alienated the people who get to make the "ban / no-ban" decision.
 
2013-08-13 08:57:43 AM  
He should have picked a better barber.
 
2013-08-13 09:10:49 AM  
Did Pete ever bet against his team?

Then what's the problem exactly?  Besides the 1919 Black Sox and a bunch of panty twisters with their shorts in knots?
 
2013-08-13 09:17:30 AM  

ManateeGag: No shiat.  he's be in the hall of fame by now, praised as a hero by most.


Seattle recently honored Ken Griffey Jr at a home game against the Brewers. He sat down with the Milwaukee announcers for an inning. At one point they flashed the top 6 leaders in Home Runs. He was asked about how he felt to be in that company:

1 Bonds
2. Aaron
3. Ruth
4. Mays
5. Rodruiguez
6. Griffey Jr

He paused. "Numbers 2, 3 and 4" he replied and commented on how great they were. Silence ensued. He left and later they talked of his not-so-silent indictment of Bonds and Rodruiguez.
 
2013-08-13 09:27:29 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Did Pete ever bet against his team?

Then what's the problem exactly?  Besides the 1919 Black Sox and a bunch of panty twisters with their shorts in knots?


Betting on baseball is a one-year ban. Betting on a game involving your team, to win or lose, is a lifetime ban.
 
2013-08-13 09:28:06 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Did Pete ever bet against his team?

Then what's the problem exactly?


A manager doesn't need to be betting against his team, or even on the game he's managing, in order to corrupt the decisions he makes.
 
2013-08-13 09:30:04 AM  

ElwoodCuse: Marcus Aurelius: Did Pete ever bet against his team?

Then what's the problem exactly?  Besides the 1919 Black Sox and a bunch of panty twisters with their shorts in knots?

Betting on baseball is a one-year ban. Betting on a game involving your team, to win or lose, is a lifetime ban.


How is betting on your team to WIN a problem?  Shouldn't you be trying to win anyway?  I don't see how this conflicts with your interests.  Now, betting on your team to lose?  Ya, you betcha, that's a lifetime ban.
 
2013-08-13 09:31:25 AM  
It's 20-goddamn-13 and people still need to be told that betting on your sport is bad. We have failed as a society
 
2013-08-13 09:34:30 AM  

Lucky LaRue: That isn't to say he wasn't a great ball player, but his narcissism has alienated the people who get to make the "ban / no-ban" decision.


If they ever make time travel possible, after shiatting on Hitler a few times and punching Gavrilo Princip in the face, I'd like to get Bart Giamatti some heart surgery so that we'd know if Pete's "But Bart said they'd revisit the 'lifetime-y-ness' of the ban after a year!" is true.

Certainly, Selig was no fan of Rose's, and he wasn't going to make one of his first actions (or one of the most high-profile decision this side of an All-Star Game tie) an undoing of Giamatti's last.

// or I could bring a copy of "My Prison Without Bars" for him in 1970
 
2013-08-13 09:36:23 AM  

remus: How is betting on your team to WIN a problem?


Because it affects the way you manage a game, possibly putting your players at risk.
 
2013-08-13 09:37:19 AM  

remus: ElwoodCuse: Marcus Aurelius: Did Pete ever bet against his team?

Then what's the problem exactly?  Besides the 1919 Black Sox and a bunch of panty twisters with their shorts in knots?

Betting on baseball is a one-year ban. Betting on a game involving your team, to win or lose, is a lifetime ban.

How is betting on your team to WIN a problem?  Shouldn't you be trying to win anyway?  I don't see how this conflicts with your interests.  Now, betting on your team to lose?  Ya, you betcha, that's a lifetime ban.


Ask Mario Soto. Google "Mario Soto and Pete Rose". Report back with your findings.

As a player/manager, you bet on the game and you ruin the integrity of the game, putting the outcomes on par with professional wrestling. Like was said earlier, PEDs = bad. Betting on the game = worse.
 
2013-08-13 09:37:51 AM  

Nadie_AZ: ManateeGag: No shiat.  he's be in the hall of fame by now, praised as a hero by most.

Seattle recently honored Ken Griffey Jr at a home game against the Brewers. He sat down with the Milwaukee announcers for an inning. At one point they flashed the top 6 leaders in Home Runs. He was asked about how he felt to be in that company:

1 Bonds
2. Aaron
3. Ruth
4. Mays
5. Rodruiguez
6. Griffey Jr

He paused. "Numbers 2, 3 and 4" he replied and commented on how great they were. Silence ensued. He left and later they talked of his not-so-silent indictment of Bonds and Rodruiguez.


Which is ironic since 2, 3 and 4 did PEDs as well. Amphetamines are also performance enhancing drugs
 
2013-08-13 09:37:59 AM  
Yeah, right - like he wasn't on greenies just like every other player in the 60s and 70s.
 
2013-08-13 09:38:02 AM  

sigdiamond2000: remus: How is betting on your team to WIN a problem?

Because it affects the way you manage a game, possibly putting your players at risk.


How so?
 
2013-08-13 09:38:25 AM  

machoprogrammer: Nadie_AZ: ManateeGag: No shiat.  he's be in the hall of fame by now, praised as a hero by most.

Seattle recently honored Ken Griffey Jr at a home game against the Brewers. He sat down with the Milwaukee announcers for an inning. At one point they flashed the top 6 leaders in Home Runs. He was asked about how he felt to be in that company:

1 Bonds
2. Aaron
3. Ruth
4. Mays
5. Rodruiguez
6. Griffey Jr

He paused. "Numbers 2, 3 and 4" he replied and commented on how great they were. Silence ensued. He left and later they talked of his not-so-silent indictment of Bonds and Rodruiguez.

Which is ironic since 2, 3 and 4 did PEDs as well. Amphetamines are also performance enhancing drugs


I would imagine #3 was doing hotdogs and whiskey ...
 
2013-08-13 09:40:01 AM  

machoprogrammer: Amphetamines are also performance enhancing drugs


And many players used to take them, until the drug testers came along and made everything about them.
 
2013-08-13 09:42:45 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: sigdiamond2000: remus: How is betting on your team to WIN a problem?

Because it affects the way you manage a game, possibly putting your players at risk.

How so?


Miguel Cabrera injures his hip flexor in the bottom of the 8th fielding a ground ball in a tie game. Leyland has 10 large on the game, so instead of taking Cabrera out, he makes him bat in the top of the 9th. Cabrera proceeds to tear his hip flexor trying to beat out a ground ball and misses the rest of the season.

There are an infinite amount of scenarios where betting on your own team to win can actually hurt your team, to say nothing about "integrity of the game" issues.
 
2013-08-13 09:47:02 AM  

sigdiamond2000: Marcus Aurelius: sigdiamond2000: remus: How is betting on your team to WIN a problem?

Because it affects the way you manage a game, possibly putting your players at risk.

How so?

Miguel Cabrera injures his hip flexor in the bottom of the 8th fielding a ground ball in a tie game. Leyland has 10 large on the game, so instead of taking Cabrera out, he makes him bat in the top of the 9th. Cabrera proceeds to tear his hip flexor trying to beat out a ground ball and misses the rest of the season.

There are an infinite amount of scenarios where betting on your own team to win can actually hurt your team, to say nothing about "integrity of the game" issues.


OK, I'll admit there may be a very few select instances where a manager with a bet will make different decisions from a manager that hasn't placed a bet.

Let's make believe the same scenario you just presented happens during the wild card playoff.  In that case, Jim Leland is going to make Cabrera go to bat.  That means that the wild card playoff is just as bad as betting on baseball.
 
2013-08-13 09:47:55 AM  

Nadie_AZ: machoprogrammer: Nadie_AZ: ManateeGag: No shiat.  he's be in the hall of fame by now, praised as a hero by most.

Seattle recently honored Ken Griffey Jr at a home game against the Brewers. He sat down with the Milwaukee announcers for an inning. At one point they flashed the top 6 leaders in Home Runs. He was asked about how he felt to be in that company:

1 Bonds
2. Aaron
3. Ruth
4. Mays
5. Rodruiguez
6. Griffey Jr

He paused. "Numbers 2, 3 and 4" he replied and commented on how great they were. Silence ensued. He left and later they talked of his not-so-silent indictment of Bonds and Rodruiguez.

Which is ironic since 2, 3 and 4 did PEDs as well. Amphetamines are also performance enhancing drugs

I would imagine #3 was doing hotdogs and whiskey ...


And cocaine. Which would help with energy.
 
2013-08-13 09:50:41 AM  

sigdiamond2000: Marcus Aurelius: Did Pete ever bet against his team?

Then what's the problem exactly?

A manager doesn't need to be betting against his team, or even on the game he's managing, in order to corrupt the decisions he makes.


A big part of me doubts/hopes that Rose never bet on/against his own team.  But I can see how his managerial decisions could affect his bets.

Pete's Reds are playing the Dodgers today and tomorrow they play the Pirates. Pete has money down on the Dodgers to lose against the Pirates in the first game.  So during today's game Pete orders someone to take out the Dodgers hottest hitter either with a hard slide/collision or hit by pitch.  Something like that to hobble the Dodgers for a game or two.

I grew up a Red's fan and Charlie Hustle and Johnny Beach were childhood sports heroes of mine but the older I get the more I have to agree with the lifetime ban and the ban from the HOF.  I do feel Shoeless Joe should get in as I truly don't believe he was bright enough to understand exactly what he was being manipulated into doing. 

I would also like to see any of the players who are known to have used PED over the years (90's up) to have any baseball record struck down and no HOF.
 
2013-08-13 09:51:27 AM  
They haven't given too many gamblers a second chances in the world of baseball.

Perhaps that is because since 1919 every ball payer has been told repeatedly what the penalty is for betting on baseball.

I'm uncertain if the people who, after all this time, ask how him betting on the Reds to win is a bad thing truly don't understand or are being willfully obtuse.

Rose has $10,000 on today's game, nothing on tomorrow's. Do you honestly think he's not going to take risks to win today's game that he wouldn't otherwise?

No matter what effects the other behaviors have, betting (for or against your own team) is the only activity that can create incentives to lose or to prefer winning this game rather than that game. That is why MLB treats it as harshly as it does.
 
2013-08-13 09:53:53 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Pete's Reds are playing the Dodgers today and tomorrow they play the Pirates. Pete has money down on the Dodgers to lose against the Pirates in the first game. So during today's game Pete orders someone to take out the Dodgers hottest hitter either with a hard slide/collision or hit by pitch. Something like that to hobble the Dodgers for a game or two


Now that's a valid reason to ban betting.
 
2013-08-13 09:57:50 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Let's make believe the same scenario you just presented happens during the wild card playoff. In that case, Jim Leland is going to make Cabrera go to bat. That means that the wild card playoff is just as bad as betting on baseball.


Managers don't manage regular season games like they manage playoff games - ESPECIALLY win or go home playoff games. That is, unless they have money on the regular season game
 
2013-08-13 10:00:16 AM  

machoprogrammer: Nadie_AZ: ManateeGag: No shiat.  he's be in the hall of fame by now, praised as a hero by most.

Seattle recently honored Ken Griffey Jr at a home game against the Brewers. He sat down with the Milwaukee announcers for an inning. At one point they flashed the top 6 leaders in Home Runs. He was asked about how he felt to be in that company:

1 Bonds
2. Aaron
3. Ruth
4. Mays
5. Rodruiguez
6. Griffey Jr

He paused. "Numbers 2, 3 and 4" he replied and commented on how great they were. Silence ensued. He left and later they talked of his not-so-silent indictment of Bonds and Rodruiguez.

Which is ironic since 2, 3 and 4 did PEDs as well. Amphetamines are also performance enhancing drugs


Really? We're going to equate greenies with the mad-scientist lab experiment that was late 90's/early 00's Barry Bonds? If there's no level of distinction then why not just declare coffee and cigs PED's and burn Cooperstown to the ground?
 
2013-08-13 10:01:43 AM  
There is a difference between managing that way in an elimination game at the end of the season or during the playoffs, and a random game in July.

If you are betting on your team, you fail to recognize the difference--every game you bet on is "must-win" for you.

/On a side note, I hate participating in threads on my iPad.
//couldn't quote and then type.
 
2013-08-13 10:03:06 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: sigdiamond2000: Marcus Aurelius: sigdiamond2000: remus: How is betting on your team to WIN a problem?

Because it affects the way you manage a game, possibly putting your players at risk.

How so?

Miguel Cabrera injures his hip flexor in the bottom of the 8th fielding a ground ball in a tie game. Leyland has 10 large on the game, so instead of taking Cabrera out, he makes him bat in the top of the 9th. Cabrera proceeds to tear his hip flexor trying to beat out a ground ball and misses the rest of the season.

There are an infinite amount of scenarios where betting on your own team to win can actually hurt your team, to say nothing about "integrity of the game" issues.

OK, I'll admit there may be a very few select instances where a manager with a bet will make different decisions from a manager that hasn't placed a bet.

Let's make believe the same scenario you just presented happens during the wild card playoff.  In that case, Jim Leland is going to make Cabrera go to bat.  That means that the wild card playoff is just as bad as betting on baseball.


WTF. A playoff game is more consequential and can dramatically affect whether or not a team will advance towards the World Series, ergo a manager might think it should commensurate with more risks. A regular season game, especially where a team is so far ahead in the pennant race or so far behind, would not merit that same level of risk-taking, unless the manager has a financial stake in its otcome.
 
2013-08-13 10:10:22 AM  

jayhawk88: machoprogrammer: Nadie_AZ: ManateeGag: No shiat.  he's be in the hall of fame by now, praised as a hero by most.

Seattle recently honored Ken Griffey Jr at a home game against the Brewers. He sat down with the Milwaukee announcers for an inning. At one point they flashed the top 6 leaders in Home Runs. He was asked about how he felt to be in that company:

1 Bonds
2. Aaron
3. Ruth
4. Mays
5. Rodruiguez
6. Griffey Jr

He paused. "Numbers 2, 3 and 4" he replied and commented on how great they were. Silence ensued. He left and later they talked of his not-so-silent indictment of Bonds and Rodruiguez.

Which is ironic since 2, 3 and 4 did PEDs as well. Amphetamines are also performance enhancing drugs

Really? We're going to equate greenies with the mad-scientist lab experiment that was late 90's/early 00's Barry Bonds? If there's no level of distinction then why not just declare coffee and cigs PED's and burn Cooperstown to the ground?


You're right, there shouldn't be a level of distinction because the hall is already full of players who "cheated" in one way or another.
 
2013-08-13 10:17:31 AM  
Meanwhile, this guy is still in baseball. Such bullsh*t.

www3.pictures.zimbio.com
 
2013-08-13 10:19:53 AM  

jayhawk88: machoprogrammer: Nadie_AZ: ManateeGag: No shiat.  he's be in the hall of fame by now, praised as a hero by most.

Seattle recently honored Ken Griffey Jr at a home game against the Brewers. He sat down with the Milwaukee announcers for an inning. At one point they flashed the top 6 leaders in Home Runs. He was asked about how he felt to be in that company:

1 Bonds
2. Aaron
3. Ruth
4. Mays
5. Rodruiguez
6. Griffey Jr

He paused. "Numbers 2, 3 and 4" he replied and commented on how great they were. Silence ensued. He left and later they talked of his not-so-silent indictment of Bonds and Rodruiguez.

Which is ironic since 2, 3 and 4 did PEDs as well. Amphetamines are also performance enhancing drugs

Really? We're going to equate greenies with the mad-scientist lab experiment that was late 90's/early 00's Barry Bonds? If there's no level of distinction then why not just declare coffee and cigs PED's and burn Cooperstown to the ground?


Stimulants are a gigantic advantage over the course of a long season. Possibly moreso than steroids, particularly with regards to non power metrics. And why is one banned substance ok but others are not? Is Gaylord Perry's spitball cheating? Is a player getting Lasik cheating?
 
2013-08-13 10:24:48 AM  

Nadie_AZ: Seattle recently honored Ken Griffey Jr at a home game against the Brewers. He sat down with the Milwaukee announcers for an inning. At one point they flashed the top 6 leaders in Home Runs. He was asked about how he felt to be in that company:

1 Bonds
2. Aaron
3. Ruth
4. Mays
5. Rodruiguez
6. Griffey Jr

He paused. "Numbers 2, 3 and 4" he replied and commented on how great they were. Silence ensued. He left and later they talked of his not-so-silent indictment of Bonds and Rodruiguez.


And, immediately after leaving, Griffey injured his hamstring and was unable to offer commentary until mid 2014.

/Reds fan
/Griffey Jr. belongs in the HOF...as the biggest bust in the history of baseball.
 
2013-08-13 10:26:00 AM  

machoprogrammer: Nadie_AZ: machoprogrammer: Nadie_AZ: ManateeGag: No shiat.  he's be in the hall of fame by now, praised as a hero by most.

Seattle recently honored Ken Griffey Jr at a home game against the Brewers. He sat down with the Milwaukee announcers for an inning. At one point they flashed the top 6 leaders in Home Runs. He was asked about how he felt to be in that company:

1 Bonds
2. Aaron
3. Ruth
4. Mays
5. Rodruiguez
6. Griffey Jr

He paused. "Numbers 2, 3 and 4" he replied and commented on how great they were. Silence ensued. He left and later they talked of his not-so-silent indictment of Bonds and Rodruiguez.

Which is ironic since 2, 3 and 4 did PEDs as well. Amphetamines are also performance enhancing drugs

I would imagine #3 was doing hotdogs and whiskey ...

And cocaine. Which would help with energy.


And only against white people. Which would help with having sub-par competition.
 
2013-08-13 10:27:43 AM  

sigdiamond2000: He should have picked a better barber.


Now that's farking funny. +1 to you good sir/madam.

sigdiamond2000: Marcus Aurelius: sigdiamond2000: remus: How is betting on your team to WIN a problem?

Because it affects the way you manage a game, possibly putting your players at risk.

How so?

Miguel Cabrera injures his hip flexor in the bottom of the 8th fielding a ground ball in a tie game. Leyland has 10 large on the game, so instead of taking Cabrera out, he makes him bat in the top of the 9th. Cabrera proceeds to tear his hip flexor trying to beat out a ground ball and misses the rest of the season.

There are an infinite amount of scenarios where betting on your own team to win can actually hurt your team, to say nothing about "integrity of the game" issues.


A perfect example except your player choice. Cabrera never tries to leg out a ground ball.
 
2013-08-13 10:29:55 AM  

EyeballKid: /Reds fan
/Griffey Jr. belongs in the HOF...as the biggest bust in the history of baseball.


..a guy 6th on the all-time homer list is a bust?

Ultimately didn't fulfill his career potential sure, but hardly a bust.
 
2013-08-13 10:30:54 AM  

Cubs300: PEDs = bad. Betting on the game = worse.


Becoming freakish hulk-men plagued by bouts of extreme aggression with massacred endocrine systems that will probably never function properly again for the sake of a game, with massively boosted chances for bone fractures and ruptured tendons and things: Not so bad

Betting on a game: Unforgivable, cause potentially, maybe, it could possibly put one of your players at risk.  I checked out that Mario Soto story.

Baseball and its fans are such a weird thing to me, because most people AGREE it isn't fun to watch, its an outing punctuated by some random excitement on occasion.  They treat it like its sacrosanct or something though, which is insane to me.
 
2013-08-13 10:41:23 AM  
Yep, Pete Rose got completely screwed. Just put that on the top of the pile of reasons why the HOF is difficult to take seriously.
 
2013-08-13 10:42:45 AM  

Super_pope: Baseball and its fans are such a weird thing to me, because most people AGREE it isn't fun to watch, its an outing punctuated by some random excitement on occasion.  They treat it like its sacrosanct or something though, which is insane to me.


Different people like different things. Saying things like "most people AGREE" is confirmation bias.

I love watching baseball. I can appreciate the nuance of every pitch. A lot of people can't or don't.. that's cool. If something I like is not your bag, no skin off my nose. It's the "stop liking what I don't like" crowd that's a pest.

I like football, but I'm nowhere near as passionate about it as baseball, or as much as the average sports Farker seems to be. I played both in HS (pitcher and defensive back) , so I understand the nuance of every down too.. I just don't care as much.
 
2013-08-13 10:47:13 AM  

The Bestest: ..a guy 6th on the all-time homer list is a bust?

Ultimately didn't fulfill his career potential sure, but hardly a bust.


He was a great player for 10 years.
He played for 20 years.
You can't act like the shiat half of his career didn't happen, unless the HOF has sections for partial careers. Among those inductees could be Will Clark, for those years he was good with the Giants, or Tommy John before the famous surgery, and Mark Fidyrich.

Career BA: .284. Really? That's a Hall of Famer?
 
2013-08-13 10:51:28 AM  

machoprogrammer: And why is one banned substance ok but others are not? Is Gaylord Perry's spitball cheating? Is a player getting Lasik cheating?


The answer to this question is probably the same as the answer to the Pete Rose question.
 
2013-08-13 10:52:23 AM  

Rex_Banner: It's 20-goddamn-13 and people still need to be told that betting on your sport is bad. We have failed as a society


To be fair, gambling is MUCH more prevalent, and accepted, in today's society than it has ever been before.
 
2013-08-13 10:54:38 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Let's make believe the same scenario you just presented happens during the wild card playoff. In that case, Jim Leland is going to make Cabrera go to bat. That means that the wild card playoff is just as bad as betting on baseball.


I prefer the "Mike Shanahan / Robert Griffin III" example.
 
2013-08-13 10:56:09 AM  

EyeballKid: Nadie_AZ: Seattle recently honored Ken Griffey Jr at a home game against the Brewers. He sat down with the Milwaukee announcers for an inning. At one point they flashed the top 6 leaders in Home Runs. He was asked about how he felt to be in that company:

1 Bonds
2. Aaron
3. Ruth
4. Mays
5. Rodruiguez
6. Griffey Jr

He paused. "Numbers 2, 3 and 4" he replied and commented on how great they were. Silence ensued. He left and later they talked of his not-so-silent indictment of Bonds and Rodruiguez.

And, immediately after leaving, Griffey injured his hamstring and was unable to offer commentary until mid 2014.

/Reds fan
/Griffey Jr. belongs in the HOF...as the biggest bust in the history of baseball.


A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!!!!!

I lived in Cincinnati when Mr. Wonderful was brought to the Reds in that "epic" trade. Then GM Jim Bowden was hailed as the greatest GM in Baseball history. It was pretty much guaranteed, in our minds, that we were going to the playoffs and Jr. was going to join McGwire and Sosa in turning the NL Central into Home Run Central.

...then Mr. Wonderful became Mr. Strikeout, and from there became Mr. Disabled List, breaking every bone in his body just from catching a fly ball. (Every season, he was earning frequent flyer miles on that DL bench, let me tell you.)
And that awesome GM Jim Bowden made the boneheaded decision to fire Manager Jack McKeon (who went on to win the World Series with the hapless Florida Marlins) and hired Bob Boone to replace him, turning an NL Central team that was competitive in the Pennant race into a team that was competitive for last place with the Milwaukee Brewers.

/happy the Reds finally turned themselves around.
//figures they'd wait to do it until long after I move away.
 
2013-08-13 10:59:46 AM  

EyeballKid: The Bestest: ..a guy 6th on the all-time homer list is a bust?

Ultimately didn't fulfill his career potential sure, but hardly a bust.

He was a great player for 10 years.
He played for 20 years.
You can't act like the shiat half of his career didn't happen, unless the HOF has sections for partial careers. Among those inductees could be Will Clark, for those years he was good with the Giants, or Tommy John before the famous surgery, and Mark Fidyrich.

Career BA: .284. Really? That's a Hall of Famer?


That's better than Reggie Jackson, and by a large margin. If that's all you've got keeping him out, then your argument falls before the first hurdle.
 
2013-08-13 11:00:26 AM  

EyeballKid: He was a great player for 10 years.
He played for 20 years.
You can't act like the shiat half of his career didn't happen, unless the HOF has sections for partial careers.


Conversely, you can't ignore the great years either. By your definition, Andruw Jones is also a bust.

Will his hobbled years hurt his HoF considerations? Sure, as they should, but how can you call someone still being considered a "bust"?
 
2013-08-13 11:04:13 AM  

Lifeless: That's better than Reggie Jackson, and by a large margin. If that's all you've got keeping him out, then your argument falls before the first hurdle.


Reggie Jackson actually won something on a team once. Big diff.

All the pro-Jr.'s arguments boil down to are "well, he was injured so often he clearly wasn't taken 'roids" and "mah childhood."
 
2013-08-13 11:06:17 AM  
Girffey had 600+ HR and an OPS north of .900 for his career. He was also a fantastic center fielder for the first half of his career. He's inner circle Hall of Fame
 
2013-08-13 11:07:47 AM  

EyeballKid: The Bestest: ..a guy 6th on the all-time homer list is a bust?

Ultimately didn't fulfill his career potential sure, but hardly a bust.

He was a great player for 10 years.
He played for 20 years.
You can't act like the shiat half of his career didn't happen, unless the HOF has sections for partial careers. Among those inductees could be Will Clark, for those years he was good with the Giants, or Tommy John before the famous surgery, and Mark Fidyrich.

Career BA: .284. Really? That's a Hall of Famer?


Batting average is only one measure of productivity, and it's not a very good one.  Juan Pierre is a career .295 hitter, and he sucks.

Ken Griffey Jr. had ridiculous power, and he was a premiere defender at one of the game's more difficult positions.  He got on base at a .370 clip, which is plenty respectable for a slugger.

He was in the conversation for the best non-Bonds player in baseball for a full decade.  He then got injured, added 5-6 partial years of decent baseball, and then tacked on 4 years of meh.  That's more than plenty of Hall of Famers accomplish.

By WAR, he's 56th all-time, 34th among position players.  Nearly all of that value was 2005 and earlier, but it's still there.

Better center fielders than Griffey: Mantle, Mays, Cobb, DiMaggio, Speaker.  Throw in Oscar Charleston if the stories are even remotely true.  But he's a clear top-10 all-time CF, and that's more than enough to be Hall-worthy.

For the record, Griffey was a better player than Pete Rose ever was.
 
2013-08-13 11:10:18 AM  
From Wiki:

In his autobiography My Prison Without Bars, published by Rodale Press on January 8, 2004, Rose finally admitted publicly to betting on baseball games and other sports while playing for and managing the Reds. He also admitted to betting on Reds games, but said that he never bet against the Reds. He repeated his admissions in an interview on the ABC news program Primetime Thursday. He also said in the book that he hoped his admissions would help end his ban from baseball so that he could reapply for reinstatement.
In March 2007 during an interview on The Dan Patrick Show on ESPN Radio, Rose said, "I bet on my team every night. I didn't bet on my team four nights a week. I bet on my team to win every night because I loved my team, I believed in my team," he said. "I did everything in my power every night to win that game."
John Dowd disputed Rose's contention that he bet on the Reds every night, asserting that Rose did not bet on his team when Mario Soto or Bill Gullickson pitched.However, Dowd's allegations did not match the records contained in his own report. A notebook detailing Rose's daily betting activity shows that Rose did in fact place bets on 5 of the 6 games Soto started in 1987.The lone exception was April 26, 1987, when Rose allegedly placed bets on hockey and basketball games but no baseball games. Those records also show he bet on every game that Gullickson started during the time period which the betting notebook covered.

The criticism of Rose did not diminish after this admission-even some Rose supporters were outraged that Rose would suddenly reverse fifteen years of denials as part of a book publicity tour.  In addition, the timing was called into question-by making his admission just two days after the Baseball Hall of Fame announced its class of 2004 inductees, Rose appeared to be linking himself publicly to the Hall.  Further adding to the debate was the 2004 ESPN made-for-TV movie Hustle, starring Tom Sizemore as Rose, which documents Rose's gambling problem and his subsequent ban from baseball.
 
2013-08-13 11:10:46 AM  

chimp_ninja: He was in the conversation for the best non-Bonds player in baseball for a full decade. He then got injured, added 5-6 partial years of decent baseball, and then tacked on 4 years of meh.


5 to 6 partial years of decent baseball? That's a kind way to re-brand "played like shiat and his body gave out after every All-Star break."
 
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