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(TaxProf)   Number of taxpayers who renounced U.S. citizenship hits record high. And that's not even counting Edward Snowden   (taxprof.typepad.com) divider line 112
    More: Interesting, U.S. Citizenship, hit records, U.S.  
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8080 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Aug 2013 at 1:40 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-10 01:23:43 PM  
17 votes:
The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.
2013-08-10 01:47:20 PM  
10 votes:
If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.
2013-08-10 01:53:53 PM  
8 votes:
Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.
2013-08-10 02:10:26 PM  
7 votes:

ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.


The difference is that in other countries, you pay high taxes... but you  actually see/receive tangible benefits.

I'm a dual US/Canadian citizen (who's never lived in Canada, my mother became a US citizen after I was born). Canadian tax rates are, on the whole, about the same as what my US tax rates would be. Yet, every time I go to Canada, it's way cleaner, the people are far better educated, the population is healthier, crime is exceedingly low, the roads are better maintained, the cops aren't beating the crap out of people because they can, there is no massive citizen spying programs and the trashiest parts of Vancouver are about on par with the lower-middle class parts of where I live (Portland, OR).

That's because Canada spends their tax dollars on things like education and infrastructure and health care.

In the US, we spend our  federal tax dollars on really productive things like a massive military who performs absurdly expensive expeditionary wars with little cause, massive federal bureaucracy, a postal service incapable of pulling it's own weight, a massive Department of Homeland Security, dozens of federal law enforcement agencies, foreign aid payouts to countries who don't like us, a wildly inefficient welfare state that seems geared to enslave people in government handouts instead of helping them become self sufficient, a drug enforcement policy that costs $50B a year with no real benefits (and billions more incarcerating the people it insnares). In short, the vast majority of your federal tax dollars buys you complete shiat.

When people get all uppity about people renouncing their US citizenship to avoid paying federal taxes, they like to cite government services that the sucessful consumed like roads, police and fire. Those are all  state and local funded systems.

Federal taxes are nothing but a feeding trough for special interests and our utterly broken government to keep propping up their power. Fark them.
2013-08-10 01:45:09 PM  
7 votes:

propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.


If you mean the government, then I agree.

People who've lived overseas for years are forced to deal with the IRS and US tax system in a manner that citizens of other countries do not.  How many other countries tax the income of expatriates and nonresidents the way the US does?
2013-08-10 02:11:04 PM  
5 votes:

Deep Contact: Someone has to pay for Obummers vacations.


thenevadaview.com
2013-08-10 01:48:03 PM  
5 votes:

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Yeah, which grade school did you drop out of?
2013-08-10 01:45:19 PM  
5 votes:
NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.
2013-08-10 01:43:48 PM  
5 votes:

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


THIS times infinity!
2013-08-10 02:21:01 PM  
4 votes:
I'm planning on doing it in the next year or so. Not for tax reasons, though. I'm not anti-tax. I'm just going to raise my children in a country that values a challenging education and that cares enough to offer healthcare to its citizens. Oh and if my kids are gay, it would be nice if they could marry without religious idiots sticking their noses in.
2013-08-10 01:30:41 PM  
4 votes:
So, just a bunch of takers.
2013-08-10 02:14:11 PM  
3 votes:

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


So you mean the parts of the world where US federal government foreign policy has most farked things up.

FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it. Basically we are talking about the politically unconnected who pay the taxes and have enough money to make fleeing economically feasible. For years people say 'love it or leave it' to those complaining about being so heavily taxed, yet now when people are choosing 'leave it' people like yourself get your panties in bunch over it.

The fact of matter is, those who can successfully place their wealth overseas because of their political and social connections have no need to renounce citizenship. They simply protect their wealth. For those without those connections they have to get citizenship in another country and simply leave. Furthermore, the USA is one of a few nations that taxes people who live outside of its borders. Thus if someone has been living in another country for a decade renouncing US citizenship makes good sense and will keep the IRS from farking with them.

I know two people who have gone to live in other countries permanently. Neither renounced as far as I know, neither has any sort of wealth beyond a typical middle class level if that. Both have had the IRS fark with them.

Then there is the problem where foreign banks simply refuse business with US citizens because of US banking laws. That could make it very difficult to live in a foreign country when you can't use a local bank.

All said and done, your government is encouraging people to leave on multiple levels, of which I've only touched on a few.

Carth: Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.


Right. Keep the slaves on the plantation. Keep the workers in the company town. That's why people who can afford it are leaving now. The parasites in the USA are becoming far too voracious. Me? I cannot afford the cost of renouncing citizenship, so I'll be buying expensive cars and women in the end days. I'll blow every dime before folks like you can get it. I'll end up in the same shanty town either way, I might as well enjoy the way down.
2013-08-10 02:02:31 PM  
3 votes:

pedrop357: ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.

At least those countries don't tax you even though haven't been in their borders for a year or more.


Yeah, this.  I'll be paying taxes in both Canada and the US this year, and every year, because I make more than 80K.  I've always said I'd never renounce my citizenship, but I gotta say it's tempting now.
2013-08-10 02:02:17 PM  
3 votes:

RandomAxe: All the other derp aside, the article says nothing about whether this is a proportional increase and offers no evidence that taxes, per se, even have anything to do with it. A lot of ex-pats have unrelated reasons for giving up their US citizenship.

But if there simply are more US citizens living abroad in a given year, and the same proportion of them as usual give up their citizenships, then you'd see this kind of spike. There wouldn't even have to be any 'cause' behind the statistical shift. And we're not talking huge numbers, here.

So basically, the article is speculation (and not much of it) based on a statistical spike that may not contain any additional information at all. There's no reason to believe that taxes have anything to do with the increase.


There are a series of new reporting laws that are taking affect one by one. Basically, if you're making burger-flipper wages or above in your foreign country of residence, that will now give the US the right to examine ALL of the banking records you have in that country in minute detail. Every transaction.
2013-08-10 01:56:21 PM  
3 votes:

iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.


bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.
2013-08-10 01:53:06 PM  
3 votes:

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


you should leave too. want help buying a ticket?
2013-08-10 01:49:01 PM  
3 votes:

BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]


You masturbate over a blatant work of fiction which ignores the basics of human nature and whose entire universe depends on a perpetual energy deus ex machina that violates every known law of physics?
2013-08-10 01:47:05 PM  
3 votes:
This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.
2013-08-10 01:45:33 PM  
3 votes:
Just curious, how many are (true) millionaires or billionaires and how many are (not rich) expatriates who have settled abroad?
2013-08-10 01:42:10 PM  
3 votes:
This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?
2013-08-10 01:20:36 PM  
3 votes:
Freeloaders.
2013-08-10 12:27:51 PM  
3 votes:
momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com
2013-08-10 03:54:04 PM  
2 votes:

feanorn: RandomRandom: The easy fix would be to grade all received money as income, no matter the source.  Wages = income.  Dividends = income.  Inheritance = income.

Only if you want to make sure that families don't pass businesses on from one generation to the next without incorporating them in the first place. Why encourage one generation to spend what they have on themselves (so the feds don't get it) rather than looking ahead to make sure their progeny can have a leg up because of the work they themselves have put in? Sure, I know, lazy trust fund kids & all that. But then there are those smart families that don't just look to make piles of loot, but rather have significant resources on hand that can be used to aid the family as a whole. Why encourage selfishness and spendthrift behavior when rational planning, cooperation, and long-term plans and projects can be encouraged, with the wisdom, skills, knowledge, and resources built up over generation passed down and used well?


Because long-term wealth is often sat-upon and not spent, not put into the system.  Long-term wealth creates an artificial 'nobility class' in this country based on how rich you are and how 'long' your family has been rich.  Hell, it's so bad that they actually have terms like 'new money' to look down upon the rich people who haven't been rich LONG ENOUGH.

Because long-term wealth that isn't invested in the country is often bad for the country as a whole.  I'm a firm believer that if I were to hit it rich, I either need to find a way to invest it into the country and put it to work, or I need to lose most of it upon my death.

My kids?  I can pay for their college ahead of time and ensure that they get a leg up on life with as much education as they can handle and maybe even buy them a cheap home so that they don't have to worry about that sort of thing while they're going to college.  Everything else is stupid luxury and often 'bad' for people to have.  It breeds contempt for those who aren't rich.

Maybe that explains a little bit of why passing billions down through the generations is a bad thing for this country.
2013-08-10 03:25:10 PM  
2 votes:
yubanet.com
2013-08-10 03:12:37 PM  
2 votes:
Pumpernickel bread:
Couple of things, first, even with fibbing a little on their tax returns, the wealthy pay far more in taxes than the average person and on average, they receive far fewer government services.

Your first claim, that the wealthy pay far more, is based on a misunderstanding of ratios.  If I'm paying 30% of my income in taxes and Paris Hilton is paying 14% of her income, it is irrelevant that her total contribution is larger than mine; she is being given a benefit that I am not.

Your second claim, that the wealthy receive fewer government services, is patently false.  Roads, bridges, railways, airports, and all of our transportation infrastructure exist largely to allow easy transport of goods from producers to markets.  The wealthy benefit disproportionately from transportation infrastructure.  Police forces and the justice system exist, in large part, to protect property and enforce contracts.  Those who own the most property benefit the most from the existence of our legal and law enforcement system.  FEMA and the National Guard exist, in large part, to protect lives and restore real property in the event of natural disasters.  People who own property benefit from those services, and the more property they own, the more they benefit.

It is popular, among a segment of the population, to assume that "government services" only refers to food stamps and welfare checks, but that is not accurate.


The bottom line is for the big government system to work, we need the wealthy to stick around because they are the ones paying for it all.

Except that, in the US, the middle class are the ones paying for it all.


I understand class envy and resentment for those you perceive as having "more" than you

No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.
2013-08-10 02:59:27 PM  
2 votes:
I'm as much of a "Fark you, pay your damn taxes" guy as they come, but I don't see what right the US govt has to tax money made overseas. If you don't live here, don't work here, and don't invest here, you shouldn't be taxed here. I can see some sort of mandatory payout to keep you eligible for SS and Medicare if you come back, but what's the logic of income tax?
2013-08-10 02:51:46 PM  
2 votes:

ManifestDestiny: dywed88: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

If you are paying tax in the US on Norwegian income you are probably doing something wrong, and if Norwegian taxes are that low you don't have much to complain about. FEIE and FTCs should more than cover your US taxes in pretty much any developed nation barring some weird circumstances. If you have trusts or a corporation or certain types of investments, than you can get some expensive filings but if you just need a 1040, two 1116s and an FBAR it shouldn't be that bad. It is the information returns that are the real problem.

As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.


As a summary:

For employment income you can claim a section 911 exclusion, known as the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion or FEIE, on form 2555. This allows you to exclude up to $97,600 USD of foreign employment or business income from US taxes. This is somewhat simpler to file than an FTC (explained later), so if doing it yourself and you income is all from employment it is probably the better option. This also applies if your local tax rate is lower than in the US.

If you have more income than the limit and/or income that isn't covered you ill need to claim a Foreign Tax Credit (FTC) using form 1116. This can be somewhat more complicated, but is the preferred option if you are in a jurisdiction with higher tax rates than the US. With an FTC, you report to the IRS your Norwegian taxes (and this likely includes some social security taxes, but that is on a case-by-case basis and I can't comment on Norway) and you can claim a credit against US taxes on your foreign income. If your Norwegian taxes are greater than the US ones you will get credit against all US taxes you would otherwise owe. If you have income from US sources, you will still have to pay some to the IRS, but you can get the same credit from Norway for US taxes paid.

The first year especially get a professional to prepare it so that you have a reference if you decide to do it on your own in the future. It will likely cost a couple grand, but I assume you will net more than that from a job. If you were talking to IRS people at the embassy they were probably incompetent, lazy, or both. Talk to an accountant instead (one with US cross border specialists, preferably from a firm with a presence in both the US and Norway). It will cost a bit but they generally know more far than the front line IRS people (and have an incentive to help you minimize taxes as they want your references and business).
2013-08-10 02:27:14 PM  
2 votes:

Hobodeluxe: that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites


If people were paying for the services they use, then there is no need for government services, only market services. People would not be leaving if they only paid for what they used. The fact is government is required to make people pay for services -other- people use. So what you're voicing displeasure about is that the people paying the taxes to subsidize things you want to use but not pay for (or only pay a reduced price for) have decided to leave and not subsidize you any longer. So who is the parasite?
2013-08-10 02:20:00 PM  
2 votes:

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


Surprise!  Paying taxes won't get you any help, either!
2013-08-10 02:17:07 PM  
2 votes:

leadmetal: Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.


that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites
2013-08-10 02:10:20 PM  
2 votes:

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Did they find a nice country where the taxes are lower on rich people?

Name it.
2013-08-10 02:08:27 PM  
2 votes:

jnapier: Nyaaa I'll take the Caymans where there are no taxes


 go live there. everything you buy that isn't made there is +25%.  almost +30% for automobiles.
there's 3 hospitals and one MRI machine for all the islands.
and they mandate health insurance for all residents.
2013-08-10 02:03:12 PM  
2 votes:
To the Norwegian bride - no, there is a tax treaty between the US and Norway. You get a tax credit and based upon Norway's tax rates you'd essentially only pay tax on investment income in the United States. There are some minor complicating factors for structuring your finances (such as whether a Roth IRA is better than a regular IRA) but it's really not that difficult. I think my accountant charged $1,000 a year when I was living overseas. Yes it's annoying, but it's a lot less than what you could make my working given that Norwegian wages are so much higher, and once they've done it once you can probably just do the forms yourself the next year. Or you can do what you're doing now, and just assume the problem is way too difficult to ever solve.
2013-08-10 02:02:53 PM  
2 votes:
Some of the people who are renouncing their citizenship are not high wealth individuals.  They are doing it for tax reasons but mostly because their ignorance of American tax law has resulted in them losing their savings through back taxes and large penalties.  I have sympathy for them unlike the 1-percenters who are just trying to maximize return.
2013-08-10 02:01:07 PM  
2 votes:

Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.


This is why people are leaving now.
2013-08-10 01:59:06 PM  
2 votes:

ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.


Nyaaa I'll take the Caymans where there are no taxes and a flight to the US is $300.

The point being, that the people WITH money can avoid higher taxes, it squeezes the middleclass, not the rich.
2013-08-10 01:57:47 PM  
2 votes:
All the other derp aside, the article says nothing about whether this is a proportional increase and offers no evidence that taxes, per se, even have anything to do with it. A lot of ex-pats have unrelated reasons for giving up their US citizenship.

But if there simply are more US citizens living abroad in a given year, and the same proportion of them as usual give up their citizenships, then you'd see this kind of spike. There wouldn't even have to be any 'cause' behind the statistical shift. And we're not talking huge numbers, here.

So basically, the article is speculation (and not much of it) based on a statistical spike that may not contain any additional information at all. There's no reason to believe that taxes have anything to do with the increase.

/ probably they do have a little to do with it
// I'm in the So GO, Then, And Who Cares camp
2013-08-10 01:56:43 PM  
2 votes:
2.bp.blogspot.com
2013-08-10 01:47:44 PM  
2 votes:
I remember reading an article that the USA is the only major nation to tax all offshore income regardless of permanent residence.  I had to pay US taxes even though I lived abroad for nearly 300 days 4 years ago.  Sucked.
2013-08-10 01:47:13 PM  
2 votes:

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


fark 'em. So no, no questions.
2013-08-10 01:47:04 PM  
2 votes:

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


Those same laws also apply to people who've lived in other countries for years and haven't even set foot in the US in years.  Foreign banks are choosing to simply not allow US residents to open accounts rather than deal with the US government or breach the privacy of their members.

There is more than one side to an issue.  You would do well to learn that.
2013-08-10 01:22:28 PM  
2 votes:
Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.
2013-08-10 01:04:26 PM  
2 votes:

BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]


You can probably hear me rolling my eyes from here.
2013-08-11 05:43:16 AM  
1 votes:

dr-shotgun: a drug enforcement policy that costs $50B a year with no real benefits


Maybe no real benefits to you...
2013-08-11 03:58:34 AM  
1 votes:

DON.MAC: From what I can tell, the US/Canada stuff is easier compared to US/Other countries.


Not really. The biggest complication is that you have a non-calendar tax year. But having experience with Canada-UK and Canada-Australia it isn't that bad and you can even use the taxes paid method in the US instead of calculating estimates and proration and can take advantage of extensions to avoid filing amended returns. You may need more information filings for retirement plans and the like that aren't covered under the treaty but Canadian equivalents are, but those would not be covered under the typical relocation package. There are more people affected by Canada-US so there are more experienced practitioners, but US-Aus is not uncommon.

Also keep in mind that all the calculations and such will be done electronically. So things like different tax rates on different forms of income are pretty irrelevant (if I input long and short term capital gains into a return, the computer automatically calculates the correct tax on them and runs the appropriate FTC calculations.

DON.MAC: A guy at the ATO told me that he had heard about a case where someone overstated their income to the IRS so they wouldn't have anything to chase him about and they investigated him under the guise of overstating the income was a violation of a US treaty and effectively limited tax he paid to some other country.


The issue is that FTCs are the lesser of, the foreign taxes you paid or the domestic taxes on the foreign source income. The latter is calculated by dividing foreign source income by domestic source income and multiplying by domestic taxes payable (it can get more complicated, but that is the basic idea). So, if you overstate your income one country, you mess up the ratio and/or pay extra taxes and can end up allocating extra taxes to that country. Needless to say the country getting shorted would not be happy.

For someone not familiar with the rules it gets pretty complicated quite quickly and in certain situations it does get crazy, but most cases aren't that bad for someone familiar with cross-border tax unless you are talking executives and other rich people.
2013-08-11 02:32:17 AM  
1 votes:

p51d007: Ever notice all these "celeb" hollywood types living off shore?  Madonna, Pitt, Moore and the like?
THESE are the once renouncing their citizenship.  They've lived overseas because they say it's
because "they are out of the spotlight for the sake of their families".  Yeah, it's about TAXES.
They don't like paying any more than anyone else, but they have the resources to escape it.
Now, the government is going after them in other countries, so they just say screw it and leave
permanently.  But, they come back here and make movies, release music, and we are stupid
enough to continue to support them.


Most major entertainers wouldn't even consider it. They would be hit hard by expatriation tax and they want to be able to travel freely to the US, where most of their income is earned.

The people renouncing citizenship will primarily be dual citizens permanently living abroad with no intention of returning the the US. Most will be not particularly wealthy.
2013-08-11 02:06:44 AM  
1 votes:

SuperNinjaToad: what's your tax rate like? from what I understand you only get tax if you make over USD $93K and can deduct an addtional 30% of the FEIE in Foreign Housing Allowance.
As to the 10 yr travel ban I've never heard of it.


The housing allowance is quite limited. The exclusion is only available for taxable employer provided housing benefits and the deduction if paid out of self-employment earnings. Neither apply to costs of purchasing a home. The maximum amount that can be claimed is 30% of the FEIE limit or the city specific amount for the city you are living in, less 16% of the FEIE limit. For someone in most developed countries, you should be claiming an FTC.

There are no legal travel restrictions (it is possible it could be looked at on any visa application, though) beyond those for anyone in the country you became a citizen/resident of. However, if the expatriation regime applies to you, meaning you are a citizen or greencard holder that had your greencard during 8 of the past 15 years and meet one of the following
- Average income over the past five years of $155,000 (inflation adjusted)
- Total assets over $2,000,000
- Do not certify that you were fully compliant for the previous 5 years

If you meet these criteria and you are present for more than 30 days in any year (there is a limited exception for employment up to 60 days) you are taxed as a citizen.
2013-08-11 12:34:23 AM  
1 votes:

DON.MAC: Google is doing this for many employees and it is done by a major accounting firm with a dedicated team so their total bill for this is not going to be cheap.


Ok. I thought you were referring to one person. It will almost certainly be well into the seven figures

DON.MAC: The problem is to be sure of everything in a tax return is an impossible job.  As an example, an Aussie programmer making $200k in the USA (so clearly above the threshold) a year but you have stock in a company in North America that makes glass and you get a dividend.  That is taxed at a different rate if they sell glass into Australia.  The rate also changes depending on the type of glass and there are categories like float glass or car glass or glass for picture frames.  And if it was car glass, then it matters if that profit was before or after the tax threshold on the goods changed from 22% to 11% or 0%.  You can throw in exchange rate on the day for added fun.  The IRS also must be informed if you happen to be involved in the committee of a club that has more than $10k going through it s bank account.  I don't think you can get proper advice on all the issues that may apply for $5k.


Like I said, I do that for a living working at a Big 4 accounting firm. I don't work with Google, but I work on that stuff for other companies. I don't do Aussie stuff, but I do both Canadian and U.S interviews and returns.

You couldn't get the advice and returns for $5k, but Google putting hundreds of employees through can easily get those kinds of rates. For a major company getting bulk rates, US federal return, one state return, FBAR (I don't know about Google, but a lot of companies don't cover FBARs), one foreign return and entrance and exit interviews for a regular person with primarily employment income and a some investments would probably run around $5k. The vast majority of the people that Google hires will have fairly simple returns and will offset the fewer more complicated ones (and the really crazy ones will likely have additional fees).
2013-08-10 11:58:54 PM  
1 votes:

dywed88: As a person that works in an accounting firm performing these services that was more than a little overstated or he is getting pretty pathetic pay. Assuming he has fairly normal taxes it probably doesn't cost Google much more than $5,000, certainly not more than $10,000.


Google is doing this for many employees and it is done by a major accounting firm with a dedicated team so their total bill for this is not going to be cheap.

The problem is to be sure of everything in a tax return is an impossible job.  As an example, an Aussie programmer making $200k in the USA (so clearly above the threshold) a year but you have stock in a company in North America that makes glass and you get a dividend.  That is taxed at a different rate if they sell glass into Australia.  The rate also changes depending on the type of glass and there are categories like float glass or car glass or glass for picture frames.  And if it was car glass, then it matters if that profit was before or after the tax threshold on the goods changed from 22% to 11% or 0%.  You can throw in exchange rate on the day for added fun.  The IRS also must be informed if you happen to be involved in the committee of a club that has more than $10k going through it s bank account.  I don't think you can get proper advice on all the issues that may apply for $5k.
2013-08-10 08:38:58 PM  
1 votes:

RightToWork: verbal_jizm: Massive? Really? I'm going to guess you completely discount what big financials did with the derivative market though, even though it led to orders of magnitude more drain on our economy and society in general.

Yes, it is massive in both scope and amount. Over 11 million working-age Americans are now on the SSDI program, and the number continues to grow at an exponential rate. A trivial amount of them are actually so disabled they can't work, and caring for them is very expensive, threatening to crash the entire Social Security system if something isn't done soon to contain costs. Beyond the direct costs, the SSDI trend encourages sloth, deception, seclusion, and mental and physical breakdown through inactivity. This "new welfare" is a major problem - one progressive-types seem more than happy to deny or ignore.

I'm not "discounting" anything. The financial collapse is a completely separate topic,  and a quite complicated one at that. Is the only way you can respond to this issue by changing the subject to evil rich bankers, corporations, and so on? If so, you're proving my point that progressives are giving the poor people committing this fraud a pass and veritable license to steal simply because they're poor. I'm certainly not on here saying mortgage fraud is okay - by all means, investigate and throw anyone who committed such frauds in jail.


What is the percentage of that 11 million that are estimated to be on SSDI fraudulently. More than 10-12%? Just curious. I don't discount that the entitlement complex that people can get can be a corrosive thing, particularly for those that have survived off of government programs for generations, and if a program leads to more fraud than legitimate claims then it certainly needs to be reformed ... by someone who actually wants the program to succeed. However, if I were looking to prioritize the types of malfeasance that have the most destabilizing effect on society in the industrialized world it would be that of the financial institutions gambling with our economy and socializing the risk.
2013-08-10 08:33:20 PM  
1 votes:

iheartscotch: RandomAxe: iheartscotch: You'd have to do it in the more "bootstrappy" states; because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

/ one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard

LOL. It's not regulations and greedy bureaucrats who have driven up the medallion cost in NYC. It's greedy millionaire cab medallion owners. A medallion is very expensive but typically returns about 5-7% in gains per year on the original investment while also gaining value. Rich people compete over things like that and have no desire to let new players into that game.

You can google this example pretty easily. And, in fact, it's pretty typical. Giant corporations have the money for new start-up locations and don't want small businesses horning in, so they lobby to have regulations established that crush smaller competitors. Government regulations are the tool, not the enemy.

So greedy that they cost themselves extra money? It is still a part of the regulation. What possible harm would it entail to lower the price to $100,000?


Yes, because it's cheaper than losing business to the competition. Let's say your widget company pulls in $5 million/year. There are only two other widget sellers who also pull in about the same, so widgets are a roughly $15 million/year industry. New widget owner wants to set up shop, which would bring in a fourth player. If the sales end up splitting evenly, that will reduce your profits by $1.5 million/year. HOWEVER, you could make the cost of doing business more expensive by a couple hundred thousand dollars. It'd knock out the fourth guy, and you've just saved $1.3 million.

Meanwhile, you can collude with your two "competitors" to keep prices at a set rate while not technically remaining a monopoly. It works so long as you don't get caught, and laws regarding that sort of thing are really so laughable that it's really not the end of the world if you do get caught. Real regulation (not crap passed by corporations) is actually needed to prevent this sort of behavior.
2013-08-10 08:10:27 PM  
1 votes:

leadmetal: Hobodeluxe: that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites

If people were paying for the services they use, then there is no need for government services, only market services. People would not be leaving if they only paid for what they used. The fact is government is required to make people pay for services -other- people use. So what you're voicing displeasure about is that the people paying the taxes to subsidize things you want to use but not pay for (or only pay a reduced price for) have decided to leave and not subsidize you any longer. So who is the parasite?


Interestingly enough... Corporate giveaways in the U.S. more than doubles entitlement programs for the poorest among us. Considering that many of these companies make billions in profits and actually receive a tax benefit, the guinea worm in the room shouldn't be too hard to find.
2013-08-10 06:48:50 PM  
1 votes:

lantawa: So, you're jealous, disgruntled, and generally unhappy.  Oh, and disenfranchised too.  Let's not forget that, of course.  Okay.  I get it.  I've acknowledged that things aren't perfect and that I'm aggravated at malfeasance and misfeasance on the part of the wealthy.  Do you not see ANY misdeeds by the underclass and middle-class in this economy.  There is a VAST black market that operates under the IRS radar, and it consists of a large majority mix of black-market and illegal/illicit drug goods.  Let's see you opine on those phenomenon for awhile.  Let's see you opine on the explosion of children born to unwed mothers.  Let's see you opine on the grave lack of spirituality that is in place in the U.S. today.  Show us your concern, pilgrim.  Show it.  To us.


Don't forget the massive and widespread fraud taking place via the explosion in Social Security Disability Insurance enrollment while progressives just look on, smile, and nod approvingly. The percentage of our population in the program has doubled over the past decade, and virtually all of the increase is due to medically unverifiable "musculoskeletal" and "anxiety" disorders. Once you are on SSDI, you have it for life with free medical care and no payroll taxes withdrawn. Unlike the reformed TANF system, SSDI discourages enrollees from returning to work through strong financial disincentives. The damage this plain abuse is doing to our workforce, class divisions, and public trust is incalculable, yet we're supposed to just turn a blind eye because these people are poor and therefore have a license to deceive and steal.
2013-08-10 06:46:21 PM  
1 votes:

lantawa: burning_bridge: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?

Get the bottom 50% to act like they had some brains and some sense?  Maybe take some personal responsibility?   I dunno.........


Most people I know in that bottom 50% are the hardest working people I know.  Most people I've come across who like to lecture others about "personal responsibility" are the most lazy, entitled, silver-spooned, arrogant, cry-baby fools I've ever met.
2013-08-10 06:42:54 PM  
1 votes:

lantawa: burning_bridge: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?

Get the bottom 50% to act like they had some brains and some sense?  Maybe take some personal responsibility?   I dunno.........


Of course. Poor people are only poor becomes they're dumb and irresponsible. The only reason.
2013-08-10 06:26:27 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: 1% of the population controls over 80% of the wealth in the nation and they don't pay 80% of the taxes.


The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Owns 40 Percent Of The Nation's Wealth:

thinkprogress.org

i.imgur.com

Seems pretty even.. Might be a little off kilter for the top 5%.
2013-08-10 05:52:59 PM  
1 votes:

Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.


^^^^See people, this is why we don't let brothers and sisters fark.

Here you go buddy.
Tax guide for U.S citizens and resident aliens living abroad


You may be able to exclude up to $95,100 ofyour foreign earned income in 2012. You cannot exclude more than the smaller of $95,000 or Your foreign earned income (discussed earlier) for the tax year minus your foreign housing exclusion (discussed later). If both you and your spouse work abroad and each of you meets either the bona fide residence test or the physical presence test, you can each choose the foreign earned income exclusion. You do not both need to meet the same test. Together, you and your spouse can exclude as much as $190,20

You can take either a credit or a deduction for income taxes paid to a foreign country or a U.S. possession. Taken as a deduction, foreign income taxes reduce your taxable income. Taken as a credit, foreign income taxes reduce your tax liability.



So basically if you make under 97k(it was raised from 95k), you don't have to pay U.S taxes. If you make over that and pay taxes in a foreign country, those taxes you paid there will offset the U.S taxes, and in most cases since the U.S has the lowest tax rates in the world, you won't be paying any U.S taxes.


So the scenario you dreamed up earlier won't happen unless the person is a complete moron, kinda like yourself.
2013-08-10 05:52:09 PM  
1 votes:

Aristocles: Fizpez: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
This string of dollar signs represents the number of people who  became US citizens last year.

$
This string of dollar signs rerepsents the number of people who renounced their US citizenship last year (an all time high)

I think we'll be OK.

So do I, but your numbers are meaningless. Not all citizens pay the same amount of taxes and it's well known that the rich pay far more in taxes than lower income citizens.


Actually most of the people renouncing have never paid any US taxes - and pretty much ALL of the ones becoming US citizens will pay some.  As has been AMPLY described in the thread "normal" people living and working overseas have plenty of ways to avoid paying twice on the same income - theyll figure out the new laws.  People who have lived their entire life outside the US but have a US passport because their mom or dad was an American 50 years ago will probably renounce - they've never filed US taxes and arent about to start now.  Nothing is really lost as I am sure they're happy living where they do.

I'd be happy if they fixed the tax code so 500 companies didnt all have "headquarters" in the same building in the Cayman Islands or some other tax dodge - this legal change is just so individuals can't pull the same shiat.
2013-08-10 05:32:18 PM  
1 votes:
Give them credit, at least they are actually "leaving the country".  Unlike so many who have threatened to do so if so and so is elected, yet here they still are.
2013-08-10 05:26:24 PM  
1 votes:
So you are giving up your citizenship? Where do you run to?

"Not too long ago two friends of mine were talking to a Cuban refugee, a businessman who had escaped from Castro, and in the midst of his story one of my friends turned to the other and said, "We don't know how lucky we are." And the Cuban stopped and said, "How lucky you are! I had someplace to escape to." In that sentence he told us the entire story. If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth. "
-- Ronald Reagan

I know, I know some are going to ay x, y and z countries have more freedom but you would have been lying, particular on issues like free speech, privacy and gun rights etc, and No, I don't consider a bunch of free stuff from a cradle to grave welfare state part of being free. You are just free of some of the burdens of freedom-self responsibility and self reliance. Without those burdens you are not really free just more reliant on the generosity of politicians with other people's money.

So having decided to leave the America that could have been where to go knowing that for the most part they are the never was or will be? You could stay knowing that the US will be like the rest of them, perhaps in your lifetime. You can't pick a low tax low services state to live in because the heavy had of the Federal government still reaches in. So no it is time for you to leave but where to go?

Many of the so called good places have pretty strict immigration laws, that would shock our open borders progressives, these may include: have a marketable skill their country needs, already having a job waiting for you when get there, money to live on for x amount time, money for plane ticket back, pass a medical screening, pass a background check, private health insurance (yes they may have socialized medicine but some countries.require new arrivals to have private insurance coverage for x amount of time) Forget about voting (not that we Americans have had much of a choice lately). Many communities and regions are like living with a hyper HOA probably necessary given the cramped urban living of many destinations you might choose from.

If you can get pass the restrictions their are many countries to chose from. Australia and New Zealand of course come to mind. I lean toward Iceland-kind of like Volcanoes but jobs opportunities are not great. Also think about Singapore.

FYI Australia is offering relaxed immigration rules for EX US military with certain skills they need mostly Navy submarine types-worth looking into if you are willing to serve in the Australian Military-whic is a professional group IMHO.

I have written off Central and South America has my time down South says nice place to visit but.....


So where do you run to?

YO have basically decided to give up liviing in a place that had so much potential but is failing for place
2013-08-10 05:18:43 PM  
1 votes:

lantawa: Infernalist: lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!

Considering the top 1% of the country's population controls over 80% of the wealth, I maintain that they're not paying enough in taxes just yet.

It has been a problem equation for some decades now.  Personally, I am still pissed at the credit default swaps, the Standard and Poor/Moody's AAA shenanigans, and the Fannie/Freddie foolishness from 2005 to 2008.  Not happy at all about that----it's part of what vaulted Obama into office (and I'm not happy about that, either).  Actions have reactions, even in the subjective realms.  What's funny, though, is that even though I may protest a bit, and debate for constraints on taxes, I have continued to pay a large percentage of my earnings to tax requirements.  The "one percent" acted like douchebags with their shenanigans regarding capital manipulation from 2005 to 2008, but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.


I don't think 'disproportionate' means what you think it means.

1% of the population controls over 80% of the wealth in the nation and they don't pay 80% of the taxes.

Or do you expect the poorest parts of the population to pay the vast majority of taxes?

This is how I see you:  Three men sitting at a table with a dozen cookies.  The first guy takes 11 cookies and gives one to the other two guys.  The second guy gets mad at the first guy, while the third guy is pissed at the second guy for wanting some of his cookie.

You're the third guy.  You're too busy getting pissed at people in far worse shape than yourself, while ignoring the bloated rich farks who continue to bleed this country dry.

You know, I lived through the Cold War days and I remember a lot of the old Soviet propaganda.  They called capitalists 'leeches' and 'parasites.'  Back then, I was too young to see those as anything more than insults.

Now, I can see why they'd call capitalists leeches and parasites.  They're killing this country.
2013-08-10 05:12:18 PM  
1 votes:

bikkurikun: ManifestDestiny:

According to whomever it was I spoke with at the embassy, yes. If you renounce and then switch citizenships, you get a 10 year timeout.

Not true. You can just get a tourist visa and visit. I have a good friend who changed citizenship two years ago and he still visits the U.S. multiple times a year. The only thing is that you in theory can get blacklisted if the citizenship changed is deemed to have been purely for tax reasons, but in practice this is never enforced.  No idea what the 10 year limit is, maybe 10 years before you can apply for U.S. citizenship again?


There are no restrictions to entering the US other than than those for other non-citizens with your same status in other countries. However, if you spend 30 days in the US in any calendar year for the 10 years after renouncing your citizenship you are taxed as if you were a citizen. In addition, any US investment income is taxed at the lesser of 30% and your marginal rate. Then you have significant taxes that any US persons receiving gifts or bequests for you.
2013-08-10 05:09:28 PM  
1 votes:

Joe Peanut: verbal_jizm: Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.

You were able to look that up and completely miss out on the FTC or the FEIE. Please don't ever become responsible for anyone else's money.

You have to qualify to both FTC and FEIE.  They both include the text "you MAY be able to qualify UP TO A CERTAIN AMOUNT".  It is not a given, and not your full income.


The FEIE applies up to $97000 of your income, the FTC applies beyond that. Seriously, don't ever become an accountant.
2013-08-10 05:06:08 PM  
1 votes:

Oldiron_79: FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Well you do realize if you are a US citizen living overseas you have to pay the US govt taxes on money you made overseas even though you are living overseas and using none of the US govts services? I don't think any other country's require citizens not still living in them to pay tax on income they made in whatever country they are now living in.


Unless you're getting taxed by that other country, in which case you get to deduct that from the taxes you pay to the US.
2013-08-10 04:48:53 PM  
1 votes:

Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.


You were able to look that up and completely miss out on the FTC or the FEIE. Please don't ever become responsible for anyone else's money.
2013-08-10 04:42:35 PM  
1 votes:
leadmetal:

FloydA: Nope, you're not bound to anything at all. You're free to go. Nobody is stopping you. You go wherever you think is better, and take my blessings and good will with you. If you don't want to, or are not able to, take on the full responsibilities of a citizen, including paying taxes, then go. Find your tax free paradise wherever you can. Send us a postcard.

If were only so easy. Like I stated earlier, the company town makes sure people like myself don't have the means to leave, the means to buy our freedom. The fact you and others defend the company town make it all the more sad. Can't even see it how company town policy became the system of american government we know today.



So... you won't leave because "it's too hard."    You realize that you'd actually have to give up something in order to leave, but you still won't admit that you're getting anything.  You want all the benefits of civilization handed to you on a plate, without having to pay for anything.  (And I bet you have the audacity to use the term "nanny state" too, don't you?)

You mentioned how much better things were 1905 in one of your other posts.  I hope that you haven't been anywhere near New Orleans this year, because in 1905, the city was quarantined due to yellow fever.  Subsequently, thanks to government actions, swamps were drained and bugs sprayed and cities are not closed due to yellow fever anymore.  No individual owned all the swampland, and no business could afford to drain and treat all of it, so no "market-based solution" was possible. You are reveling in the benefit of not dying of preventable illness, thanks to the government.  You might tell yourself that you get nothing of value in exchange for your taxes, but that's nothing more than a comforting self-delusion.

Your tax-free libertarian anarchist paradise would be a hellscape ruled by the biggest bully within a few hours.  That might sound appealing if you believe that you'd be the biggest bully, but in my experience, there is always someone bigger.
2013-08-10 04:30:21 PM  
1 votes:

Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.


Uh, no. You're misinformed and, apparently, to easily distracted to read even a few posts from this thread.
2013-08-10 04:28:01 PM  
1 votes:

RightToWork: Infernalist: You poor poor man.  I'll tell you what:  I'll look into getting someone to take your place, like in Trading Places.  You can go live in Section 8/Public Housing and live on welfare and public assistance and Tyrone will step up and take your place and live in your much better home, with your car and job.  Because you're plainly jealous of those Lucky Ducks who get by on food assistance and government help every month.

Retard.

It's not that I'm "jealous" of them. It's that I recognize the potential for serious economic and social problems in a heavily bureaucratized system where low-skilled individuals are systematically incentivized to live on public assistance rather than accept difficult or distasteful employment.


So you have no problem with low-skilled individuals who happen to be born into proper circumstances becoming hedge fund managers?
2013-08-10 04:20:52 PM  
1 votes:
This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.
2013-08-10 04:19:19 PM  
1 votes:

BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]



i651.photobucket.com
2013-08-10 04:06:09 PM  
1 votes:
leadmetal:What you are saying with a social contract argument is that by circumstances of birth a person is bound much like a slave or serf would be bound. Except not being bound to a specific master, but bound to an institution of state which supposedly represents the interests of his fellow slaves. We're back to punishing the runaway slave because any slave that runs away means the rest of us have to pick more cotton per person.


Nope, you're not bound to anything at all.  You're free to go.  Nobody is stopping you.  You go wherever you think is better, and take my blessings and good will with you.  If you don't want to, or are not able to, take on the full responsibilities of a citizen, including paying taxes, then go.  Find your tax free paradise wherever you can.  Send us a postcard.
2013-08-10 04:05:25 PM  
1 votes:

RightToWork: Infernalist: RightToWork: Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.

Today was my weekly trip to the grocery store where, as usual, I was the only person in line who actually purchased food with his own money. Tell me again how low-income individuals "pay the same" for their food. Perhaps you aren't aware, but they also frequently qualify for utility assistance.

You poor poor man, being the only person in line who had enough money to pay for his food without governmental assistance.  lol

Your sympathy is appreciated. I suffer from a rare affliction known as working. With SSDI enrollment skyrocketing, a less common disease in the United States than it once was.


You poor poor man.  I'll tell you what:  I'll look into getting someone to take your place, like in Trading Places.  You can go live in Section 8/Public Housing and live on welfare and public assistance and Tyrone will step up and take your place and live in your much better home, with your car and job.  Because you're plainly jealous of those Lucky Ducks who get by on food assistance and government help every month.

Retard.
2013-08-10 03:44:43 PM  
1 votes:

RightToWork: Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.

Today was my weekly trip to the grocery store where, as usual, I was the only person in line who actually purchased food with his own money. Tell me again how low-income individuals "pay the same" for their food. Perhaps you aren't aware, but they also frequently qualify for utility assistance.


You poor poor man, being the only person in line who had enough money to pay for his food without governmental assistance.  lol
2013-08-10 03:42:12 PM  
1 votes:

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


The problem is not the taxes but the compliance cost with the IRS measures.

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).


Don't you get credit on your taxes for the taxes you pay Norway?

FloydA: I'm aware of the mechanisms. I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income. I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

(I know the actual reason is that rich people write the laws, I was asking for someone to tell me the "rationalization" that makes those laws acceptable to about half of the voters.)


Actually there is a very good reason to tax capital gains lower--inflation.  You're not really making as much as it looks like in paper because you're getting back inflated dollars.  For typical stock market returns you actually pay more on capital gains than income once you consider this.
2013-08-10 03:40:44 PM  
1 votes:
God forbid we offer citizenship to people that WANT to pay taxes here...
2013-08-10 03:37:49 PM  
1 votes:
This only proves that rich people have no loyalty to anything or anyone other than themselves and their bank accounts.
2013-08-10 03:29:43 PM  
1 votes:
casual disregard:
Mr. Floyd A.,

I propose that we found a new nation. It has become obvious to me that the political powers which be cannot allow for meaningful reform. As such we must forge new ground.

Since there is, as it were, no ground to found, this nation must be a technological superiority. Thus shall we craft a nation of floating cities upon the ocean. As the time advances and as our technology advances, we can also build structures beneath the waves and in the Lagrangian points and beyond in the inky black forever.

I respectfully submit that this is a necessary act because there's fark-all chance we can find a proper compromise in-house.

/VR

Casual Disregard


You're not planning to ban spinach, onions, and the Reverend Horton Heat are you?
2013-08-10 03:22:14 PM  
1 votes:

leadmetal: You're babbling.

As I have demonstrated to your ideological partner, the services argument is complete bullshiat. What you and your kind want is the resources of other people. Plain and simple. That's why you want this big bloated government. If it was about paying for what one uses, then government services are not needed, only market services. People would pay for what they use. Government services allow forcing other people to pay for them or the bulk of their cost.


Oh, you're a Randian.  Why didn't you just say so? It would have saved us both some time.  Rand's simplistic philosophy works fine in books where the hack author gets to deus ex machia solutions to any problems that arise, but in the real world, it works no better than any other ideology.   In the real world, you have to adjust your ideals to fit the people - you can't change the people to suit your ideals.  Rand's ideology is no better than Marx's ideology, in that both of them are fantasy worlds that cannot ever possibly exist.  You might just as well base your plan for society on the Harry Potter novels.
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:13:11 PM  
1 votes:

brilett: I guess we'll just annex the Cayman's.

Bastards blew up our steamship


And they shot down helen Keller when she tried to escape from the Germans by flying around the world.
2013-08-10 03:09:05 PM  
1 votes:

ongbok: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

Then you are an idiot.

If you are making under 98k I think it is now, you don't have to pay federal income tax in the U.S. If you are making more than that, but are also paying taxes in your host country, those taxes will be deducted from what you owe in federal U.S income taxes, which in most cases since the U.S has the lowest income tax rate in the industrialize world means you won't pay any federal U.S income taxes. So either you are lying or your an idiot that is throwing money away because you are too lazy to do some paper work.

These new reporting laws are in place to get people who are hiding money overseas.


Way to not read the thread.  Congrats.  Feel special today.
2013-08-10 03:04:45 PM  
1 votes:

Pumpernickel bread: they receive far fewer government services


Bullshiat. Most of the wealth they generate depends on infrastructure that is payed for directly or indirectly by federal taxes.
2013-08-10 02:57:49 PM  
1 votes:

RandomRandom: vpb: Uh, no. I have lived overseas myself, and it doesn't work that way.

You aren't "taxed twice over", unless you just don't bother to take the Foreign Tax Credit. If you pay more taxes in Norway than in the US you should owe nothing in taxes to the IRS.

Exactly right.  The taxes in places like Norway are far higher than they are in the US.  Perhaps outside some very exceptional circumstances, no US citizen living in Norway should have to pay any US tax.  If you are, it's time to get a new accountant.


One caveat: other countries don't necessarily calculate taxes in the same way.  In the US, everything is calculated as a percentage of gross income - X% in federal income taxes, Y% for state income taxes, Z% for local income taxes.  But here in France, for example, my income taxes are calculated as a percentage of the net that remains after they take out the withholdings for social security, medical, retirement, etc.  And that's a lot of money - up to a third of my pre-tax gross income, in fact.  So much so that if I were merely to claim the credit for the income tax I pay to the French government against my US tax liability (instead of the foreign earned income exclusion), I'd fall about $6,000 short on my US tax liabilities.

Now, the income tax scale here ramps up pretty quickly, so that you hit the top bracket with the 41% marginal rate at around 72,000€/year.  So if you're above the Earned Income Tax Credit, I believe you have a fair bit of headroom until you cross the line and start owing US taxes on top of French ones.  Needless to say, I'm not there yet.
2013-08-10 02:55:52 PM  
1 votes:

jnapier: Just because you renounce your citizenship does NOT mean you cant live in America.
Where do you get the idea they have to live in ButtFyckistan?

By the way.  California raised the state tax on people making more than $1M a few years ago.
They thought this would raise revenue.
What happened is that those making more than $1M left the state.

The net result was LESS taxes from rich people.
Questions? See Detroit.


Except, what actually happened was a couple news stations made noise about millionaires leaving, when there was actually a net gain of millionaires moving into the state.

"THESE 5 MILLIONAIRES LEFT CALIFORNIA BECAUSE OF TAXES but never mind that these 7 moved in during the same period."
2013-08-10 02:48:50 PM  
1 votes:

badhatharry: Well, since you are serious. You are paying income tax on wages earned. Mitt is paying capital gains tax on returns on investments. Mitt would pay 30% if he earned a wage at a job. You would pay about 14% if you cashed out your 401K.


You fail to point out that Mittens purposefully arranged to receive the majority of wages in investment income in order to reduce his tax burden.  If a small businessman moves the majority of his salary to 100k in investment income, the IRS will step on his weener.  If the CEO of a private equity does that with 100 million in investment income, no problem.

The easy fix would be to grade all received money as income, no matter the source.  Wages = income.  Dividends = income.  Inheritance = income.

That single fix would solve most of our debt issues.
2013-08-10 02:47:41 PM  
1 votes:

leadmetal: FloydA: leadmetal:
FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.

Nope.  Try again.

Well there is avoiding the police state, the fact they are living elsewhere already and don't need the IRS farking with them (which is the long version of the above), and the economic decline of the USA, which again is related. But this fark, so keeping things simple is key.



OK, so you started from the assumption that the US is a police state and the government is stealing people's money and providing nothing in return.  These are demonstrably and obviously false claims, so your premises are crap, and any conclusion you draw from them will be false.

Now you've moved on to claiming that the USA is in economic decline (without, I might add, noting that cause of our current economic problems is the supply side "Reaganomics" nonsense), failing to note that we're actually doing far better than nearly everyone else.

You are still embarrassingly unaware that nobody wants to stop all the "bootstrappy" types from leaving (except perhaps for the nations that you plan on moving to).  You just go on dreaming the apocalyptic dream that society will collapse when you all move to Galt's Gulch.

Go.  Please go.  We won't miss you.  The people who refuse to pay taxes in the US should not have the benefits of US citizenship.   If you're honestly under the impression that the benefits aren't worth the costs, I wholeheartedly encourage you to leave and renounce your citizenship.  Go.  Good riddance.  Need help packing?
2013-08-10 02:41:46 PM  
1 votes:

Southern100: That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.


Romney is one of the people who crafted that system.
2013-08-10 02:37:56 PM  
1 votes:

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


How do we get the rest of the tax cheats to leave?
2013-08-10 02:37:06 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: Those same laws also apply to people who've lived in other countries for years and haven't even set foot in the US in years. Foreign banks are choosing to simply not allow US residents to open accounts rather than deal with the US government or breach the privacy of their members.

There is more than one side to an issue. You would do well to learn that.


Clearly you've got some learning to do on your own.  If these people were to actually pay comparable taxes in the countries in which they reside, they could offset the amount paid in foreign taxes from their US taxes.  That doesn't work for them because they're mostly living in tax havens.

These rich assholes don't want to pay any tax, anywhere.

Many of them like having their cake and eating it too.  US citizenship is a great fallback.    You think these folks wouldn't come running and screaming back to the good ole' USA if the paradise they're living in turned to shiat?

These people SHOULD have to choose.  If they want US citizenship, they should pay taxes, somewhere.  They are freeloaders.
2013-08-10 02:33:13 PM  
1 votes:

ManifestDestiny: That must be a very new development because that directly conflicts with the information I got the last time I pulled my hair out trying to figure out my tax situation. I thank you very sincerely for the advice, tho I'm not sure the wages I could pull would cover my costs.  I'll look into this and run the numbers again!


If you make less than 100k and don't have investments in your name, claim a Section 911 foreign earned income exclusion. If you make more or have significant investment income, claim an Foreign Tax Credit (FTC) on form 1116. Assuming Norwegian tax rates are higher than US, that should eliminate all US taxes on Norwegian income no matter the amount of income or the source. If you have US source income, Norway will provide an FTC to offset it. Now, the return will likely cost a couple grand to prepare, but you should net more than that at a job.

For the vast majority of people, if you pay tax in multiple countries you will just pay the higher of the two tax rates.

dr-shotgun: I'm a dual US/Canadian citizen (who's never lived in Canada, my mother became a US citizen after I was born). Canadian tax rates are, on the whole, about the same as what my US tax rates would be.


Canadian tax rates are almost always higher than the US. Certain exceptions, such as single, very high income earners in California vs Alberta. But for the vast majority of people your taxes in Canada will be higher even before considering sales tax.
2013-08-10 02:32:33 PM  
1 votes:
You still have to pay US tax for 10 years.
2013-08-10 02:22:48 PM  
1 votes:

BafflerMeal: badhatharry: Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.

This is why people are leaving now.

There is a financial reniuncement fee already, but i'm not sure how much it is. Also, and this is nuts, one can renounce, burn their passport, become a citizen of another country, and the us gov claims rights to your income for ten years after.


It runs 40% if your net assets are over $2 million.
2013-08-10 02:22:17 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Those same laws also apply to people who've lived in other countries for years and haven't even set foot in the US in years.  Foreign banks are choosing to simply not allow US residents to open accounts rather than deal with the US government or breach the privacy of their members.

There is more than one side to an issue.  You would do well to learn that.


If you interviewed those giving up their citizenship, I suspect that a large percentage would be people who live overseas and are shut out of the financial systems there because the US threatens the institutions with all kinds of mayhem if they don't toe the line regarding US citizens. Far easier (for the institution) to exclude them. So if you're going to stay there, you may as well jettison that baggage before it drags you under.
2013-08-10 02:17:48 PM  
1 votes:

iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.


Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?
2013-08-10 02:17:10 PM  
1 votes:

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


"I have a question: when exactly did you become a nutbar?"
2013-08-10 02:16:38 PM  
1 votes:
Ugh, I have to figure out tax stuff from living abroad the last 2 years. Should be fine since I was making less than 95k but still overly complicated and a pain in the ass with some weird, arbitrary seeming reporting requirements like if I ever had a foreign bank account with 10k+ in it.
2013-08-10 02:15:28 PM  
1 votes:

Rwa2play: propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.

This.


So, if they are residing overseas and have taken out citizenship there then what are they taking from the United States?
2013-08-10 02:14:14 PM  
1 votes:
CPA I know who specializes in helping us citizens abroad. Works with lots of expats.

ustaxhelp.com

/shameless plug
/nice guy
2013-08-10 02:09:26 PM  
1 votes:
Thieves typically scuttle the ship as they depart once everything of value is secured.
2013-08-10 02:09:02 PM  
1 votes:

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: I remember reading an article that the USA is the only major nation to tax all offshore income regardless of permanent residence.  I had to pay US taxes even though I lived abroad for nearly 300 days 4 years ago.  Sucked.


The way I understood abroad taxes was if the tax from something which was taxed by the abroad country was less than the US tax, the US required the difference.  No?

we can afford to lose the small fish by the droves, but if we lose too many big fish, we're screwed ...

/not really
//we want the small fish who haven't gotten their taxes zeroed out yet
2013-08-10 02:07:27 PM  
1 votes:
Just because you renounce your citizenship does NOT mean you cant live in America.
Where do you get the idea they have to live in ButtFyckistan?

By the way.  California raised the state tax on people making more than $1M a few years ago.
They thought this would raise revenue.
What happened is that those making more than $1M left the state.

The net result was LESS taxes from rich people.
Questions? See Detroit.
2013-08-10 02:07:18 PM  
1 votes:

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


1/10
2013-08-10 02:05:20 PM  
1 votes:

jnapier: Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.

I like this.  Soon we will have to start border patrols to keep the wealthy from leaving.
The new Obama America.  Illegal immigrant, no problem, common in we got lots.

Retiring worker who paid in to everything.  Nope, you cant leave (you have illegals to care for)
How did that work in East Germany again?


The wealthy can leave anytime they want. It is when the money leaves the United States it should be taxed.
2013-08-10 02:05:02 PM  
1 votes:

badhatharry: Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.

This is why people are leaving now.


There is a financial reniuncement fee already, but i'm not sure how much it is. Also, and this is nuts, one can renounce, burn their passport, become a citizen of another country, and the us gov claims rights to your income for ten years after.
2013-08-10 02:03:53 PM  
1 votes:

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.
2013-08-10 02:03:00 PM  
1 votes:
iheartscotch: You'd have to do it in the more "bootstrappy" states; because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

/ one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard


LOL. It's not regulations and greedy bureaucrats who have driven up the medallion cost in NYC. It's greedy millionaire cab medallion owners. A medallion is very expensive but typically returns about 5-7% in gains per year on the original investment while also gaining value. Rich people compete over things like that and have no desire to let new players into that game.

You can google this example pretty easily. And, in fact, it's pretty typical. Giant corporations have the money for new start-up locations and don't want small businesses horning in, so they lobby to have regulations established that crush smaller competitors. Government regulations are the tool, not the enemy.
2013-08-10 01:54:10 PM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]

You masturbate over a blatant work of fiction which ignores the basics of human nature and whose entire universe depends on a perpetual energy deus ex machina that violates every known law of physics?


Hell, when you put it like that you're basically describing every porno I've ever seen.
2013-08-10 01:51:32 PM  
1 votes:

panfried: violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.

Benghazi  is still ok, right?


www.aguywalksinto365bars.com
2013-08-10 01:51:28 PM  
1 votes:
The US does not charge very much in personal income taxes.  Bunch of whiny babies.
2013-08-10 01:50:40 PM  
1 votes:

ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.


At least those countries don't tax you even though haven't been in their borders for a year or more.
2013-08-10 01:50:36 PM  
1 votes:

MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?


Millionaire? Good luck opening a business.
2013-08-10 01:48:08 PM  
1 votes:

iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.


So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?
2013-08-10 01:45:16 PM  
1 votes:
So, corporation executives are actually moving to the Cayman Islands now?
 
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