Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(TaxProf)   Number of taxpayers who renounced U.S. citizenship hits record high. And that's not even counting Edward Snowden   (taxprof.typepad.com) divider line 354
    More: Interesting, U.S. Citizenship, hit records, U.S.  
•       •       •

8096 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Aug 2013 at 1:40 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



354 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-08-10 06:01:58 PM  

Fizpez: Aristocles: Fizpez: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
This string of dollar signs represents the number of people who  became US citizens last year.

$
This string of dollar signs rerepsents the number of people who renounced their US citizenship last year (an all time high)

I think we'll be OK.

So do I, but your numbers are meaningless. Not all citizens pay the same amount of taxes and it's well known that the rich pay far more in taxes than lower income citizens.

Actually most of the people renouncing have never paid any US taxes - and pretty much ALL of the ones becoming US citizens will pay some.  As has been AMPLY described in the thread "normal" people living and working overseas have plenty of ways to avoid paying twice on the same income - theyll figure out the new laws.  People who have lived their entire life outside the US but have a US passport because their mom or dad was an American 50 years ago will probably renounce - they've never filed US taxes and arent about to start now.  Nothing is really lost as I am sure they're happy living where they do.

I'd be happy if they fixed the tax code so 500 companies didnt all have "headquarters" in the same building in the Cayman Islands or some other tax dodge - this legal change is just so individuals can't pull the same shiat.


Granted, but that doesn't change the truth of my comment. Additionally, I'll say that, while some of the new citizens might pay taxes, it's also true that many will still have their share of the tax burden covered by the rich, this might be due to welfare programs they're on, because they are dependents, because their tax bracket is low, etc.
 
2013-08-10 06:11:42 PM  
All I could say to those people leaving the country and renouncing citizenship:  Good riddance.
 
2013-08-10 06:21:16 PM  

FloydA: So... you won't leave because "it's too hard." You realize that you'd actually have to give up something in order to leave, but you still won't admit that you're getting anything. You want all the benefits of civilization handed to you on a plate, without having to pay for anything. (And I bet you have the audacity to use the term "nanny state" too, don't you?)




But what if we are simply being overcharged for those services that are being provided? Combined Federal State and local revenue collections is somewhere around $5 trillion.

We spend more per student on education than any other country (over $800 billion) in the world but what do we get for it? citation

This year we will spend (combined State and Federal) about $1 trillion dollars on mean tested welfare programs, second highest area of government spending (behind Social/Security/MEDICARE and ahead of Defense) and the fastest growing area of spending but what do we get for it? citation

The same goes for Defense(Which at least has something to show in return for dollars spent even with the waste and fraud), transportation, foreign affair etc. etc.

Looks that the stimulus spending -$800 billion shot to hell and still few or no infrastructure improvements or shovel ready jobs.

Green energy jobs-$26 billion for less that 3000 permanent jobs at over $11 million per job.citation

I don't mind paying taxes for roads schools, sanitation, emergency services etc. but don't try blowing smoke up our asses telling us we are getting our monies worth and should be wiling to pay more. Or that if we complain about it we are dreaming of Somalian Utopia I don't want to pay taxes so the Navy has more Admirals than it has ships or so that "socially aware" puppet show can get funded in Philadelphia or so that toll both worker can draw a six figure salary or that the new President of the University of California system can earn $600,000 or that a retired San Francisco civil servant can earn $300,000. my local police force does not need MRAPS or drones.

Government does not need more of our money and in fact can probably do a better job with a lot less.
 
2013-08-10 06:21:53 PM  

Infernalist: lantawa: Infernalist: You know, I lived through the Cold War days and I remember a lot of the old Soviet propaganda.  They called capitalists 'leeches' and 'parasites.'  Back then, I was too young to see those as anything more than insults.

Now, I can see why they'd call capitalists leeches and parasites.  They're killing this country.

Heya, sport. Let's look at the paragraph from the article that I linked. Here it is: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Read that, Infernalist, and, truly, CHOKE ON IT. I also lived through the Cold War times, and I learned and KNOW that communists are the ratlike filth of the world, colluding with and scheming with the nihilists, apocalyptists, and other fringe rodents of the philosophical night that sometimes deign to pretend that they have anything of value to contribute to the lives of men and women.

And they hate paying every single last penny of those taxes.  They spend thousands of dollars a year, paying men to find any and every way that they can find to get out of paying those taxes.  They break laws, they bribe Congressmen for new loopholes and clauses to get out of paying those taxes.  They store money in off-shore accounts to avoid paying taxes, they hide it in shell corporations and generally 'hate' paying back into this country that made their wealth possible.

And for all those taxes that they do pay, THEY AREN'T PAYING ENOUGH.  They control the vast majority of wealth in this country and work hard to increase that 80+%, they do whatever they can to move that wealth from the bottom up to the top.  And once they get it, they sit on it and make stupid noises about 'trickle down theory.'

So, with all that said, let me repeat myself: ...


So, you're jealous, disgruntled, and generally unhappy.  Oh, and disenfranchised too.  Let's not forget that, of course.  Okay.  I get it.  I've acknowledged that things aren't perfect and that I'm aggravated at malfeasance and misfeasance on the part of the wealthy.  Do you not see ANY misdeeds by the underclass and middle-class in this economy.  There is a VAST black market that operates under the IRS radar, and it consists of a large majority mix of black-market and illegal/illicit drug goods.  Let's see you opine on those phenomenon for awhile.  Let's see you opine on the explosion of children born to unwed mothers.  Let's see you opine on the grave lack of spirituality that is in place in the U.S. today.  Show us your concern, pilgrim.  Show it.  To us.
 
2013-08-10 06:26:27 PM  

Infernalist: 1% of the population controls over 80% of the wealth in the nation and they don't pay 80% of the taxes.


The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Owns 40 Percent Of The Nation's Wealth:

thinkprogress.org

i.imgur.com

Seems pretty even.. Might be a little off kilter for the top 5%.
 
2013-08-10 06:29:22 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?
 
2013-08-10 06:30:32 PM  

Southern100: Infernalist: 1% of the population controls over 80% of the wealth in the nation and they don't pay 80% of the taxes.

The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Owns 40 Percent Of The Nation's Wealth:

[thinkprogress.org image 277x336]

[i.imgur.com image 470x442]

Seems pretty even.. Might be a little off kilter for the top 5%.


Nice....
 
2013-08-10 06:35:24 PM  

burning_bridge: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?


Get the bottom 50% to act like they had some brains and some sense?  Maybe take some personal responsibility?   I dunno.........
 
2013-08-10 06:38:40 PM  
You only have to pay US taxes if you make more than 90,000$ a year.

Otherwise, you just have to file your country of residence's tax receipts to prove you paid there, and then you don't pay the IRS.

And if you make MORE than 90,000$ a year, fark you. You can afford a percentage off that.

//I still think it's absurd to have to pay taxes to a country you don't live in.
///But I also think it's absurd to biatch about having to have less of what you have, when you already have more than anyone else.
 
2013-08-10 06:42:54 PM  

lantawa: burning_bridge: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?

Get the bottom 50% to act like they had some brains and some sense?  Maybe take some personal responsibility?   I dunno.........


Of course. Poor people are only poor becomes they're dumb and irresponsible. The only reason.
 
2013-08-10 06:46:21 PM  

lantawa: burning_bridge: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?

Get the bottom 50% to act like they had some brains and some sense?  Maybe take some personal responsibility?   I dunno.........


Most people I know in that bottom 50% are the hardest working people I know.  Most people I've come across who like to lecture others about "personal responsibility" are the most lazy, entitled, silver-spooned, arrogant, cry-baby fools I've ever met.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 06:48:46 PM  
leadmetal:
Spoken like love it or leave it, ignoring all the practical concerns of the process.

Furthermore, the US federal government doesn't exactly approve the renouncing citizenship with no where to go. They tend not to is my understanding of the process.


No, spoken like someone who thinks that we don't have an obligation to protect you from the consequences of your poor decisions or cater to your sense of entitlement.
.
If US citizenship is the best deal you can get and yet you aren't happy with it, well too bad.  I don't care, it's you're problem so you solve it.
 
2013-08-10 06:48:50 PM  

lantawa: So, you're jealous, disgruntled, and generally unhappy.  Oh, and disenfranchised too.  Let's not forget that, of course.  Okay.  I get it.  I've acknowledged that things aren't perfect and that I'm aggravated at malfeasance and misfeasance on the part of the wealthy.  Do you not see ANY misdeeds by the underclass and middle-class in this economy.  There is a VAST black market that operates under the IRS radar, and it consists of a large majority mix of black-market and illegal/illicit drug goods.  Let's see you opine on those phenomenon for awhile.  Let's see you opine on the explosion of children born to unwed mothers.  Let's see you opine on the grave lack of spirituality that is in place in the U.S. today.  Show us your concern, pilgrim.  Show it.  To us.


Don't forget the massive and widespread fraud taking place via the explosion in Social Security Disability Insurance enrollment while progressives just look on, smile, and nod approvingly. The percentage of our population in the program has doubled over the past decade, and virtually all of the increase is due to medically unverifiable "musculoskeletal" and "anxiety" disorders. Once you are on SSDI, you have it for life with free medical care and no payroll taxes withdrawn. Unlike the reformed TANF system, SSDI discourages enrollees from returning to work through strong financial disincentives. The damage this plain abuse is doing to our workforce, class divisions, and public trust is incalculable, yet we're supposed to just turn a blind eye because these people are poor and therefore have a license to deceive and steal.
 
2013-08-10 06:50:45 PM  
Man, the Farklib trolls are really stinkin up this thread.

Well, despite that fact, I think we've established that the rich, job creators are Galting because of Obama's oppressive regulations and hostility toward the free market and, therefore, hostility to the American way.
 
2013-08-10 07:11:13 PM  

RightToWork: lantawa: So, you're jealous, disgruntled, and generally unhappy.  Oh, and disenfranchised too.  Let's not forget that, of course.  Okay.  I get it.  I've acknowledged that things aren't perfect and that I'm aggravated at malfeasance and misfeasance on the part of the wealthy.  Do you not see ANY misdeeds by the underclass and middle-class in this economy.  There is a VAST black market that operates under the IRS radar, and it consists of a large majority mix of black-market and illegal/illicit drug goods.  Let's see you opine on those phenomenon for awhile.  Let's see you opine on the explosion of children born to unwed mothers.  Let's see you opine on the grave lack of spirituality that is in place in the U.S. today.  Show us your concern, pilgrim.  Show it.  To us.

Don't forget the massive and widespread fraud taking place via the explosion in Social Security Disability Insurance enrollment while progressives just look on, smile, and nod approvingly. The percentage of our population in the program has doubled over the past decade, and virtually all of the increase is due to medically unverifiable "musculoskeletal" and "anxiety" disorders. Once you are on SSDI, you have it for life with free medical care and no payroll taxes withdrawn. Unlike the reformed TANF system, SSDI discourages enrollees from returning to work through strong financial disincentives. The damage this plain abuse is doing to our workforce, class divisions, and public trust is incalculable, yet we're supposed to just turn a blind eye because these people are poor and therefore have a license to deceive and steal.


Massive? Really? I'm going to guess you completely discount what big financials did with the derivative market though, even though it led to orders of magnitude more drain on our economy and society in general.
 
2013-08-10 07:11:55 PM  

Aristocles: Man, the Farklib trolls are really stinkin up this thread.

Well, despite that fact, I think we've established that the rich, job creators are Galting because of Obama's oppressive regulations and hostility toward the free market and, therefore, hostility to the American way.


Heh. A troll calling out "trolls". Cute.
 
2013-08-10 07:16:28 PM  

ModernLuddite: You only have to pay US taxes if you make more than 90,000$ a year.

Otherwise, you just have to file your country of residence's tax receipts to prove you paid there, and then you don't pay the IRS.

And if you make MORE than 90,000$ a year, fark you. You can afford a percentage off that.

//I still think it's absurd to have to pay taxes to a country you don't live in.
///But I also think it's absurd to biatch about having to have less of what you have, when you already have more than anyone else.



The real irony is that the wealthy can afford a couple hundred bucks here and there for a great accountant.  These are not the people waving to the Liberty Puppet as the drive into the HR block.

There are plenty of legal ways to move wealth around to reduce your tax burden.
 
2013-08-10 07:20:16 PM  

Aristocles: job creators are Galting


Hey, guys look! Someone actually believes that "Going Galt" is a real thing, or that other people won't step up and take their places in American society!

31.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-08-10 07:54:09 PM  

verbal_jizm: Massive? Really? I'm going to guess you completely discount what big financials did with the derivative market though, even though it led to orders of magnitude more drain on our economy and society in general.


Yes, it is massive in both scope and amount. Over 11 million working-age Americans are now on the SSDI program, and the number continues to grow at an exponential rate. A trivial amount of them are actually so disabled they can't work, and caring for them is very expensive, threatening to crash the entire Social Security system if something isn't done soon to contain costs. Beyond the direct costs, the SSDI trend encourages sloth, deception, seclusion, and mental and physical breakdown through inactivity. This "new welfare" is a major problem - one progressive-types seem more than happy to deny or ignore.

I'm not "discounting" anything. The financial collapse is a completely separate topic,  and a quite complicated one at that. Is the only way you can respond to this issue by changing the subject to evil rich bankers, corporations, and so on? If so, you're proving my point that progressives are giving the poor people committing this fraud a pass and veritable license to steal simply because they're poor. I'm certainly not on here saying mortgage fraud is okay - by all means, investigate and throw anyone who committed such frauds in jail.
 
2013-08-10 08:01:37 PM  

brantgoose: I know Japan has low taxes compared to the US.

Some considerations:

People will always look on you as a curiosity.

They haven't accepted Chinese and Korean immigrants after 600 years of residence.

Your taxes are low, but the mortgage on your closet sized apartment will take three to four generations to pay off.

You may have to wear surgical masks to breathe.

You may have to pay $100 for a watermelon, or a three ounce Kobo beef "steak", just because it is disgustingly fatty.

You will have to learn Japanese.

You may be beaten up by left wing or far right wing protestors wearing body armor and helmets.

They kill whales every though they have thousands of tons of whale meat on ice that not even the Japanese want to eat.

About three quarters of the country is sacred forest, so your very costly paper comes from Brazil and the population of Canada is crowded into urban Tokyo (and that of California into Metro Tokyo).


There's also the public transportation to consider.
 
2013-08-10 08:10:27 PM  

leadmetal: Hobodeluxe: that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites

If people were paying for the services they use, then there is no need for government services, only market services. People would not be leaving if they only paid for what they used. The fact is government is required to make people pay for services -other- people use. So what you're voicing displeasure about is that the people paying the taxes to subsidize things you want to use but not pay for (or only pay a reduced price for) have decided to leave and not subsidize you any longer. So who is the parasite?


Interestingly enough... Corporate giveaways in the U.S. more than doubles entitlement programs for the poorest among us. Considering that many of these companies make billions in profits and actually receive a tax benefit, the guinea worm in the room shouldn't be too hard to find.
 
2013-08-10 08:15:05 PM  

verbal_jizm: lantawa: burning_bridge: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?

Get the bottom 50% to act like they had some brains and some sense?  Maybe take some personal responsibility?   I dunno.........

Of course. Poor people are only poor becomes they're dumb and irresponsible. The only reason.


And, far more than the middle-class or the upper classes, poor people are, literally, mistakes rather than planned children.  It's funny how our mistakes come back to haunt us, isn't it.  Like I said, personal responsibility, common sense, and for fark's sake, someone REALLY TEACH the poor some shiat, okay?  Personal accounting and banking should be mandatory courses, every year, from grade school all the way to collegiate studies. We have an enormous number of financial retards in this country who have been TAUGHT to be retards, FFS.
 
2013-08-10 08:16:08 PM  

FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?


I suppose it is because he is better than us. Look at this horse, it is amazing.

www3.pictures.zimbio.com
 
2013-08-10 08:18:42 PM  

burning_bridge: lantawa: burning_bridge: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?

Get the bottom 50% to act like they had some brains and some sense?  Maybe take some personal responsibility?   I dunno.........

Most people I know in that bottom 50% are the hardest working people I know.  Most people I've come across who like to lecture others about "personal responsibility" are the most lazy, entitled, silver-spooned, arrogant, cry-baby fools I've ever met.


That's not been my experience....but nice insult!  You've done well, per Fark standards....
 
2013-08-10 08:33:20 PM  

iheartscotch: RandomAxe: iheartscotch: You'd have to do it in the more "bootstrappy" states; because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

/ one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard

LOL. It's not regulations and greedy bureaucrats who have driven up the medallion cost in NYC. It's greedy millionaire cab medallion owners. A medallion is very expensive but typically returns about 5-7% in gains per year on the original investment while also gaining value. Rich people compete over things like that and have no desire to let new players into that game.

You can google this example pretty easily. And, in fact, it's pretty typical. Giant corporations have the money for new start-up locations and don't want small businesses horning in, so they lobby to have regulations established that crush smaller competitors. Government regulations are the tool, not the enemy.

So greedy that they cost themselves extra money? It is still a part of the regulation. What possible harm would it entail to lower the price to $100,000?


Yes, because it's cheaper than losing business to the competition. Let's say your widget company pulls in $5 million/year. There are only two other widget sellers who also pull in about the same, so widgets are a roughly $15 million/year industry. New widget owner wants to set up shop, which would bring in a fourth player. If the sales end up splitting evenly, that will reduce your profits by $1.5 million/year. HOWEVER, you could make the cost of doing business more expensive by a couple hundred thousand dollars. It'd knock out the fourth guy, and you've just saved $1.3 million.

Meanwhile, you can collude with your two "competitors" to keep prices at a set rate while not technically remaining a monopoly. It works so long as you don't get caught, and laws regarding that sort of thing are really so laughable that it's really not the end of the world if you do get caught. Real regulation (not crap passed by corporations) is actually needed to prevent this sort of behavior.
 
2013-08-10 08:38:58 PM  

RightToWork: verbal_jizm: Massive? Really? I'm going to guess you completely discount what big financials did with the derivative market though, even though it led to orders of magnitude more drain on our economy and society in general.

Yes, it is massive in both scope and amount. Over 11 million working-age Americans are now on the SSDI program, and the number continues to grow at an exponential rate. A trivial amount of them are actually so disabled they can't work, and caring for them is very expensive, threatening to crash the entire Social Security system if something isn't done soon to contain costs. Beyond the direct costs, the SSDI trend encourages sloth, deception, seclusion, and mental and physical breakdown through inactivity. This "new welfare" is a major problem - one progressive-types seem more than happy to deny or ignore.

I'm not "discounting" anything. The financial collapse is a completely separate topic,  and a quite complicated one at that. Is the only way you can respond to this issue by changing the subject to evil rich bankers, corporations, and so on? If so, you're proving my point that progressives are giving the poor people committing this fraud a pass and veritable license to steal simply because they're poor. I'm certainly not on here saying mortgage fraud is okay - by all means, investigate and throw anyone who committed such frauds in jail.


What is the percentage of that 11 million that are estimated to be on SSDI fraudulently. More than 10-12%? Just curious. I don't discount that the entitlement complex that people can get can be a corrosive thing, particularly for those that have survived off of government programs for generations, and if a program leads to more fraud than legitimate claims then it certainly needs to be reformed ... by someone who actually wants the program to succeed. However, if I were looking to prioritize the types of malfeasance that have the most destabilizing effect on society in the industrialized world it would be that of the financial institutions gambling with our economy and socializing the risk.
 
2013-08-10 09:18:33 PM  
The US/Australia agreement for US citizens living Downunder is that the Aussie gov't gets its income tax at the normal rates then for US taxes, you subtract a figure ($78,000 or so), and then you get your standard deductions.  You then use that as an income level and you calculate your taxes on that and if it is higher than what was paid to Oz, you have to pay the difference to the IRS.  This is also complicated by deductions that work in the US that don't work elsewhere like home mortgage deductions or overseas housing expenses and the alternate minimum taxes come into play as well.

There is the question of taxes most people deal with via IRS like income tax and then there are other taxes like social security and now the health fund taxes.  Was talking with the head of the Aussie Tax office department who dealt with international tax agreements.  The US-Australia agreement now covers about 80,000 pages of documents and no one in his department knows even most of the details.  The general rule is the Aussie government would prefer to get 1st pick of the tax its citizens working in the US would pay than the Americans working here since it has a problem that its millionaires tend to set up businesses in the US.

A friend got a high paying job with Google in the US and Google pays their accounting firm to provide these guys advice on international taxes.  He asked how much that service would cost the next year and the answer was "more than you make in a year"
 
2013-08-10 09:47:30 PM  

DON.MAC: A friend got a high paying job with Google in the US and Google pays their accounting firm to provide these guys advice on international taxes.  He asked how much that service would cost the next year and the answer was "more than you make in a year"


As a person that works in an accounting firm performing these services that was more than a little overstated or he is getting pretty pathetic pay. Assuming he has fairly normal taxes it probably doesn't cost Google much more than $5,000, certainly not more than $10,000.
 
2013-08-10 09:50:32 PM  
How does this correlate to the amount of tea in the harbor?
 
2013-08-10 09:52:14 PM  

verbal_jizm: What is the percentage of that 11 million that are estimated to be on SSDI fraudulently. More than 10-12%? Just curious. I don't discount that the entitlement complex that people can get can be a corrosive thing, particularly for those that have survived off of government programs for generations, and if a program leads to more fraud than legitimate claims then it certainly needs to be reformed ... by someone who actually wants the program to succeed. However, if I were looking to prioritize the types of malfeasance that have the most destabilizing effect on society in the industrialized world it ...


There is no way to know for sure how many of them are fraudulent, but since the number and percentage on SSDI has more than doubled over the past decade, and the overwhelming majority of these cases are for highly questionable "disabilities" like back pain and anxiety, I'm going to go with "most of them." This American Life and EconTalk did specials on the topic a year or two ago if you're interested. Both programs implied there are plenty of fakers out there, but pointed to lax eligibility requirements as a culprit as well. One contributing factor is nobody represents the public/government in appeal hearings, so applicants denied on their first application are almost always successful on appeal. Where everyone seems to agree is that SSDI is functioning as a new, souped-up welfare program for those who have trouble finding work, except all the important limitations of unemployment and TANF don't apply.
 
2013-08-10 10:59:30 PM  

hasty ambush: But what if we are simply being overcharged for those services that are being provided? Combined Federal State and local revenue collections is somewhere around $5 trillion.

We spend more per student on education than any other country (over $800 billion) in the world but what do we get for it? citation

This year we will spend (combined State and Federal) about $1 trillion dollars on mean tested welfare programs, second highest area of government spending (behind Social/Security/MEDICARE and ahead of Defense) and the fastest growing area of spending but what do we get for it? citation

The same goes for Defense(Which at least has something to show in return for dollars spent even with the waste and fraud), transportation, foreign affair etc. etc.

Looks that the stimulus spending -$800 billion shot to hell and still few or no infrastructure improvements or shovel ready jobs.

Green energy jobs-$26 billion for less that 3000 permanent jobs at over $11 million per job.citation

I don't mind paying taxes for roads schools, sanitation, emergency services etc. but don't try blowing smoke up our asses telling us we are getting our monies worth and should be wiling to pay more. Or that if we complain about it we are dreaming of Somalian Utopia I don't want to pay taxes so the Navy has more Admirals than it has ships or so that "socially aware" puppet show can get funded in Philadelphia or so that toll both worker can draw a six figure salary or that the new President of the University of California system can earn $600,000 or that a retired San Francisco civil servant can earn $300,000. my local police force does not need MRAPS or drones.

Government does not need more of our money and in fact can probably do a better job with a lot less.



If you want to argue that the government could spend money more wisely, you'll get no argument from me.  I agree with you.  There are lots of programs that could and should be cut.  We can debate and discuss about which particulat expenditures are "necessary" and which are "wasteful," and I expect that some good could come of that discussion if we all enter into it with honest intentions.

Personally, I don't think that you and I are getting our money's worth.  I think that Paris Hilton and Mitt Romney and others of their ilk have been getting a free ride on my and your money.  I agree with you about the problem, although we may have different ideas about the cause.

But my argument is not with you.  It's with the people who conclude that, since money is being spent on things they don't like, they shouldn't have to pay taxes at all, and should move to another country, but continue to get the benefits of being a US citizen without paying for them.  Those people are parasites.  If they want to get out without paying for the US to continue to function, I'm OK with them leaving.  But in exchange, they forego ALL of the benefits of being a US citizen.  Pay and play or don't pay and GTFO.  That seems fair to me.

Am I wrong?
 
2013-08-10 11:08:28 PM  

Hobodeluxe: leadmetal: Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.

that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites


Funny, I would rather keep the money I pay the government to give to some poor soul so they can get that plasma screen, so I can give it to a poor person that can't afford shoes. That is a parasite?
 
2013-08-10 11:11:57 PM  

Hobodeluxe: Deep Contact: Someone has to pay for Obummers vacations.

[thenevadaview.com image 700x843]


Cheaper at the ranch.
 
2013-08-10 11:58:25 PM  
pedrop357

Why do you hate America?
 
2013-08-10 11:58:54 PM  

dywed88: As a person that works in an accounting firm performing these services that was more than a little overstated or he is getting pretty pathetic pay. Assuming he has fairly normal taxes it probably doesn't cost Google much more than $5,000, certainly not more than $10,000.


Google is doing this for many employees and it is done by a major accounting firm with a dedicated team so their total bill for this is not going to be cheap.

The problem is to be sure of everything in a tax return is an impossible job.  As an example, an Aussie programmer making $200k in the USA (so clearly above the threshold) a year but you have stock in a company in North America that makes glass and you get a dividend.  That is taxed at a different rate if they sell glass into Australia.  The rate also changes depending on the type of glass and there are categories like float glass or car glass or glass for picture frames.  And if it was car glass, then it matters if that profit was before or after the tax threshold on the goods changed from 22% to 11% or 0%.  You can throw in exchange rate on the day for added fun.  The IRS also must be informed if you happen to be involved in the committee of a club that has more than $10k going through it s bank account.  I don't think you can get proper advice on all the issues that may apply for $5k.
 
2013-08-11 12:34:23 AM  

DON.MAC: Google is doing this for many employees and it is done by a major accounting firm with a dedicated team so their total bill for this is not going to be cheap.


Ok. I thought you were referring to one person. It will almost certainly be well into the seven figures

DON.MAC: The problem is to be sure of everything in a tax return is an impossible job.  As an example, an Aussie programmer making $200k in the USA (so clearly above the threshold) a year but you have stock in a company in North America that makes glass and you get a dividend.  That is taxed at a different rate if they sell glass into Australia.  The rate also changes depending on the type of glass and there are categories like float glass or car glass or glass for picture frames.  And if it was car glass, then it matters if that profit was before or after the tax threshold on the goods changed from 22% to 11% or 0%.  You can throw in exchange rate on the day for added fun.  The IRS also must be informed if you happen to be involved in the committee of a club that has more than $10k going through it s bank account.  I don't think you can get proper advice on all the issues that may apply for $5k.


Like I said, I do that for a living working at a Big 4 accounting firm. I don't work with Google, but I work on that stuff for other companies. I don't do Aussie stuff, but I do both Canadian and U.S interviews and returns.

You couldn't get the advice and returns for $5k, but Google putting hundreds of employees through can easily get those kinds of rates. For a major company getting bulk rates, US federal return, one state return, FBAR (I don't know about Google, but a lot of companies don't cover FBARs), one foreign return and entrance and exit interviews for a regular person with primarily employment income and a some investments would probably run around $5k. The vast majority of the people that Google hires will have fairly simple returns and will offset the fewer more complicated ones (and the really crazy ones will likely have additional fees).
 
2013-08-11 01:20:44 AM  

ManifestDestiny: Coming on a Bicycle: ManifestDestiny: flucto: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.

I'll be sure to tell my stepmother. I'm sure she would be thrilled to hear that her pinko liberal space muffin step-daughter has seen the light.

Bar you from entering the US? Even on a tourist visa?

According to whomever it was I spoke with at the embassy, yes. If you renounce and then switch citizenships, you get a 10 year timeout.


what's your tax rate like? from what I understand you only get tax if you make over USD $93K and can deduct an addtional 30% of the FEIE in Foreign Housing Allowance.
As to the 10 yr travel ban I've never heard of it.
 
2013-08-11 01:36:56 AM  

FloydA: badhatharry: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

Well, since you are serious. You are paying income tax on wages earned. Mitt is paying capital gains tax on returns on investments.  Mitt would pay 30% if he earned a wage at a job. You would pay about 14% if you cashed out your 401K.

Southern100:

If you made more than 50% of your "income" from Capital Gains, you wouldn't have a 30% tax rate either.

That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.


I'm aware of the mechanisms.  I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income.  I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

(I know the actual reason is that rich people write the laws, I was asking for someone to tell me the "rationalization" that makes those laws acceptable to about half of the voters.)


I think the simplest answer to that is when the law was crafted, the justification is that there is an inherent risk to investment unlike a regular straight salary. Thereotically speaking, Romney's investments has the potential to return %0 thereby giving him 0 income (straight math) whereas your salary is consistent.

Think of it this way. who would you tax more (percentage wise)? someone who consistently makes $100 everyday or someone who may make $100 today or may make $5 tomorrow?

The actual amount Romney or (billionaire of choice) has in the bank or investment vehicle is immaterial.

Its one of those things that can be both fair or unfair depending on how you look at things.
 
2013-08-11 01:55:25 AM  

RandomRandom: xxdangerbobxx: What services are those you farking retard? I haven't lived in the states for years, I only go (irregularly) to see family and the IRS wants me to pay taxes every year? For what? Your wars? Preventing abortions? Making sure only white people can vote if at all possible? Are you retarded?

Are you? Or are you just living in a tax haven?

If you're living outside the US, the foreign tax credit stipulates that any taxes paid overseas offset any US taxes owed.  So unless you're living in some low-tax or no-tax haven, you shouldn't owe much, if anything.

You're telling me that if your current place of residence turned to shiat tomorrow you wouldn't pack up and head back to the good ole' USA?  Your passport is a fallback.  If having a fallback isn't important to you, then give back the passport and live a happy life overseas.


I live in the UK. Should it make a difference if I lived in the Canary Islands or another tax haven? If I have nothing to do with the US, I don't live there, I don't work there, have any of my stuff there or go there. Why should I be paying taxes there?
 
2013-08-11 02:01:44 AM  

Infernalist: filter: fark all you haters! I have lived abroad 8 years. Why the hell do I need to file US taxes? Do you file state taxes in all 50 states?

Didn't think so.


I don't think any other country forces nonresidents to file.

I pay an assload of tax living in socialist Europe- FWIW.

Cry moar.


What a worthless response.
 
2013-08-11 02:03:43 AM  

FloydA: filter: fark all you haters! I have lived abroad 8 years. Why the hell do I need to file US taxes?

You don't.  Renounce your US citizenship.  Nobody is trying to stop you.


You are so farking stupid it's unreal. Should he be a stateless person then if he doesn't have dual citizenship somewhere else? And all over not wanting to pay taxes for somewhere he doesn't live or have lived in almost a decade.

You're pathetic.
 
2013-08-11 02:06:44 AM  

SuperNinjaToad: what's your tax rate like? from what I understand you only get tax if you make over USD $93K and can deduct an addtional 30% of the FEIE in Foreign Housing Allowance.
As to the 10 yr travel ban I've never heard of it.


The housing allowance is quite limited. The exclusion is only available for taxable employer provided housing benefits and the deduction if paid out of self-employment earnings. Neither apply to costs of purchasing a home. The maximum amount that can be claimed is 30% of the FEIE limit or the city specific amount for the city you are living in, less 16% of the FEIE limit. For someone in most developed countries, you should be claiming an FTC.

There are no legal travel restrictions (it is possible it could be looked at on any visa application, though) beyond those for anyone in the country you became a citizen/resident of. However, if the expatriation regime applies to you, meaning you are a citizen or greencard holder that had your greencard during 8 of the past 15 years and meet one of the following
- Average income over the past five years of $155,000 (inflation adjusted)
- Total assets over $2,000,000
- Do not certify that you were fully compliant for the previous 5 years

If you meet these criteria and you are present for more than 30 days in any year (there is a limited exception for employment up to 60 days) you are taxed as a citizen.
 
2013-08-11 02:16:54 AM  
Ever notice all these "celeb" hollywood types living off shore?  Madonna, Pitt, Moore and the like?
THESE are the once renouncing their citizenship.  They've lived overseas because they say it's
because "they are out of the spotlight for the sake of their families".  Yeah, it's about TAXES.
They don't like paying any more than anyone else, but they have the resources to escape it.
Now, the government is going after them in other countries, so they just say screw it and leave
permanently.  But, they come back here and make movies, release music, and we are stupid
enough to continue to support them.
 
2013-08-11 02:32:17 AM  

p51d007: Ever notice all these "celeb" hollywood types living off shore?  Madonna, Pitt, Moore and the like?
THESE are the once renouncing their citizenship.  They've lived overseas because they say it's
because "they are out of the spotlight for the sake of their families".  Yeah, it's about TAXES.
They don't like paying any more than anyone else, but they have the resources to escape it.
Now, the government is going after them in other countries, so they just say screw it and leave
permanently.  But, they come back here and make movies, release music, and we are stupid
enough to continue to support them.


Most major entertainers wouldn't even consider it. They would be hit hard by expatriation tax and they want to be able to travel freely to the US, where most of their income is earned.

The people renouncing citizenship will primarily be dual citizens permanently living abroad with no intention of returning the the US. Most will be not particularly wealthy.
 
2013-08-11 02:36:15 AM  

p51d007: Ever notice all these "celeb" hollywood types living off shore?  Madonna, Pitt, Moore and the like?
THESE are the once renouncing their citizenship.  They've lived overseas because they say it's
because "they are out of the spotlight for the sake of their families".  Yeah, it's about TAXES.
They don't like paying any more than anyone else, but they have the resources to escape it.
Now, the government is going after them in other countries, so they just say screw it and leave
permanently.   But, they come back here and make movies, release music, and we are stupid
enough to continue to support them.


What are you still supporting if they've dropped their citizenship and just come back to release a whatever? That's similar to a tourist. Tourists don't COST countries money you big dummy.
 
2013-08-11 02:48:50 AM  

xxdangerbobxx: p51d007: Ever notice all these "celeb" hollywood types living off shore?  Madonna, Pitt, Moore and the like?
THESE are the once renouncing their citizenship.  They've lived overseas because they say it's
because "they are out of the spotlight for the sake of their families".  Yeah, it's about TAXES.
They don't like paying any more than anyone else, but they have the resources to escape it.
Now, the government is going after them in other countries, so they just say screw it and leave
permanently.   But, they come back here and make movies, release music, and we are stupid
enough to continue to support them.

What are you still supporting if they've dropped their citizenship and just come back to release a whatever? That's similar to a tourist. Tourists don't COST countries money you big dummy.


Also, they will pay taxes in the US for the work they do in the US.
 
2013-08-11 03:33:49 AM  

dywed88: Like I said, I do that for a living working at a Big 4 accounting firm. I don't work with Google, but I work on that stuff for other companies. I don't do Aussie stuff, but I do both Canadian and U.S interviews and returns.


From what I can tell, the US/Canada stuff is easier compared to US/Other countries.  The Aussie/UK pension stuff is easy because of the number of people who have to cope with both.  Get into US/third world and your only hope is to have a quiet agreement with the local officials and make sure everyone gets paid.

A guy at the ATO told me that he had heard about a case where someone overstated their income to the IRS so they wouldn't have anything to chase him about and they investigated him under the guise of overstating the income was a violation of a US treaty and effectively limited tax he paid to some other country.  That story was told at a bar after a few drinks so who knows if it true.  Then again comments about being "Caponed" are increasing.
 
2013-08-11 03:58:34 AM  

DON.MAC: From what I can tell, the US/Canada stuff is easier compared to US/Other countries.


Not really. The biggest complication is that you have a non-calendar tax year. But having experience with Canada-UK and Canada-Australia it isn't that bad and you can even use the taxes paid method in the US instead of calculating estimates and proration and can take advantage of extensions to avoid filing amended returns. You may need more information filings for retirement plans and the like that aren't covered under the treaty but Canadian equivalents are, but those would not be covered under the typical relocation package. There are more people affected by Canada-US so there are more experienced practitioners, but US-Aus is not uncommon.

Also keep in mind that all the calculations and such will be done electronically. So things like different tax rates on different forms of income are pretty irrelevant (if I input long and short term capital gains into a return, the computer automatically calculates the correct tax on them and runs the appropriate FTC calculations.

DON.MAC: A guy at the ATO told me that he had heard about a case where someone overstated their income to the IRS so they wouldn't have anything to chase him about and they investigated him under the guise of overstating the income was a violation of a US treaty and effectively limited tax he paid to some other country.


The issue is that FTCs are the lesser of, the foreign taxes you paid or the domestic taxes on the foreign source income. The latter is calculated by dividing foreign source income by domestic source income and multiplying by domestic taxes payable (it can get more complicated, but that is the basic idea). So, if you overstate your income one country, you mess up the ratio and/or pay extra taxes and can end up allocating extra taxes to that country. Needless to say the country getting shorted would not be happy.

For someone not familiar with the rules it gets pretty complicated quite quickly and in certain situations it does get crazy, but most cases aren't that bad for someone familiar with cross-border tax unless you are talking executives and other rich people.
 
2013-08-11 04:29:30 AM  

RightToWork: Don't forget the massive and widespread fraud taking place via the explosion in Social Security Disability Insurance enrollment while progressives just look on, smile, and nod approvingly. The percentage of our population in the program has doubled over the past decade, and virtually all of the increase is due to medically unverifiable "musculoskeletal" and "anxiety" disorders. Once you are on SSDI, you have it for life with free medical care and no payroll taxes withdrawn. Unlike the reformed TANF system, SSDI discourages enrollees from returning to work through strong financial disincentives. The damage this plain abuse is doing to our workforce, class divisions, and public trust is incalculable, yet we're supposed to just turn a blind eye because these people are poor and therefore have a license to deceive and steal.


OK, first of all, nice handle. It's almost like you created this account specifically to say things like this.

Anyway, I find it amazing that you see 95% of the problem with SSI, but completely fail to see the cause. SSI is a secret unemployment number. Sure, there are some people who are legitimately disabled, and there are some people who are just gaming the system. The vast majority of people on SSI, though, are collecting literally ones of thousands of dollars per year because THEY CAN'T GET A GODDAMNED JOB. Get some f*cking decent jobs in this country and you'd see a whole lot of disabled people have miraculous recoveries--nobody wants to live on $13k when they could get a job and make $20k.

You're right in your assertion that SSI strongly discourages people from ever getting a job once they're on it. You could say the same thing about TANF and SNAP. You can lay this directly at the feet of Republicans. Any right-thinking American should realize that if you pro-rate these benefits so it doesn't cost money to get a job, more people would actually go get jobs if they were available. Unfortunately, there are too many outraged conservatives convinced that Shaniquas are out there driving Cadillacs and eating skrimps and lobsters for dinner every night on their dime, so we have to punish poor people for being poor.
 
2013-08-11 05:41:01 AM  

TopoGigo: Anyway, I find it amazing that you see 95% of the problem with SSI, but completely fail to see the cause. SSI is a secret unemployment number. Sure, there are some people who are legitimately disabled, and there are some people who are just gaming the system. The vast majority of people on SSI, though, are collecting literally ones of thousands of dollars per year because THEY CAN'T GET A GODDAMNED JOB. Get some f*cking decent jobs in this country and you'd see a whole lot of disabled people have miraculous recoveries--nobody wants to live on $13k when they could get a job and make $20k.


So much farking THIS.

SSI, and the similar programs that it covers are defintely worse off compared to work.  That said, about the only way to get the private sector to budge seems to be by making it a royal pain to not hire(directly, full-time, and for the long-term).  Employers would rather use every trick in the book to avoid hiring(guest or illegal worker abuse), or do so in bad faith(such as the rampant use of 29er/49er/permatemp/agency employment).  Once employers have to actually compete for workers (for lack of ways to avoid hiring them), things can get better.

~$1200/mo is not pleasant by any means, especially with all the paperwork and documentation involved - it is almost a job in itself.  In my case, I'd rather deal with tax forms(1040 + W-2, no 1099/agency employment tax forms) as a result of having a good employer(which I've had) than the bureaucracy involved in maintaining benefits.
 
Displayed 50 of 354 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report