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(TaxProf)   Number of taxpayers who renounced U.S. citizenship hits record high. And that's not even counting Edward Snowden   (taxprof.typepad.com) divider line 354
    More: Interesting, U.S. Citizenship, hit records, U.S.  
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8090 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Aug 2013 at 1:40 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-10 04:22:58 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?



Yes. Why do you continue to troll? You are absolutely farking terrible at it.
 
2013-08-10 04:24:50 PM  

Infernalist: You poor poor man.  I'll tell you what:  I'll look into getting someone to take your place, like in Trading Places.  You can go live in Section 8/Public Housing and live on welfare and public assistance and Tyrone will step up and take your place and live in your much better home, with your car and job.  Because you're plainly jealous of those Lucky Ducks who get by on food assistance and government help every month.

Retard.


It's not that I'm "jealous" of them. It's that I recognize the potential for serious economic and social problems in a heavily bureaucratized system where low-skilled individuals are systematically incentivized to live on public assistance rather than accept difficult or distasteful employment.
 
2013-08-10 04:26:30 PM  

Infernalist: They're a hell of a lot better than you, farker. They gave up homes, wealth, titles, lost family and home and just about everything in order to form up a country with no real expectation that it'd work. So, show them some farking respect, eh?

And if you think rich people have less to lose than poor folk, then you're arrogant 'and' a retard.

But, all of that is irrelevant when you break it right down to is basic facts: You're not an American. You're just another rich fark who's wanting a better deal. So, get the fark out and go live in China or Russia or Mexico or wherever you can 'get a better deal'. You're not wanted, you're not needed.

Parasite.


Irrational, emotional, and ignorant. The so-called founding fathers were born here by and large if not entirely. Furthermore, if were rich, I might be gone by now. However I am just another serf in this company town, the difference is I see it for what it is. You can keep making nonsense arguments about services and social contracts, but they are ultimately nonsense. It all comes down to the monkey experiment and it appears you're quite the well conditioned monkey.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_the_monkey_banana_and_water_spray_expe ri ment_ever_take_place

FloydA: Nope, you're not bound to anything at all. You're free to go. Nobody is stopping you. You go wherever you think is better, and take my blessings and good will with you. If you don't want to, or are not able to, take on the full responsibilities of a citizen, including paying taxes, then go. Find your tax free paradise wherever you can. Send us a postcard.


If were only so easy. Like I stated earlier, the company town makes sure people like myself don't have the means to leave, the means to buy our freedom. The fact you and others defend the company town make it all the more sad. Can't even see it how company town policy became the system of american government we know today.

vpb: Well, people who want to avoid paying taxes on money they made in the US are certainly trying to avoid paying for services they use. You can't live in the US without benefiting from the protection of the military and police and fire departments and the legal system.

And anyone who lives in the US and doesn't think they should pay taxes is certainly a parasite.


Another illogical argument. A person who renounces citizenship isn't using services in or living in the USA. However folks like you apparently think he should still pay for them because he is what? bound by the circumstances of his birth to pay for them?
 
2013-08-10 04:26:32 PM  

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


8/10! Great day for fishing, you're sure to get nibbles. I'll just sit on the bow and drink all the beer.
 
2013-08-10 04:28:01 PM  

RightToWork: Infernalist: You poor poor man.  I'll tell you what:  I'll look into getting someone to take your place, like in Trading Places.  You can go live in Section 8/Public Housing and live on welfare and public assistance and Tyrone will step up and take your place and live in your much better home, with your car and job.  Because you're plainly jealous of those Lucky Ducks who get by on food assistance and government help every month.

Retard.

It's not that I'm "jealous" of them. It's that I recognize the potential for serious economic and social problems in a heavily bureaucratized system where low-skilled individuals are systematically incentivized to live on public assistance rather than accept difficult or distasteful employment.


So you have no problem with low-skilled individuals who happen to be born into proper circumstances becoming hedge fund managers?
 
2013-08-10 04:29:12 PM  

Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.


No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.
 
2013-08-10 04:30:21 PM  

Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.


Uh, no. You're misinformed and, apparently, to easily distracted to read even a few posts from this thread.
 
2013-08-10 04:32:05 PM  

Yankees Team Gynecologist: And therein lies the flaw with these conservatards: for all their talk about the "free market," they can never come up with a market comp example to back up their claim that personal income taxes are too high here.  Always complaining that this country is overpriced for what they're getting, but never showing what else is available.

They're like Corvette fans, except if no Corvette actually existed.


The silver lining of this recession is it seems to have quieted the Fark Consensus from the 2005-2008 period that Europe was a socially enlightened paradise in which life was a giant vacation shared by all, and public streets unencumbered by vehicles richly flowed with government milk and honey.

No argument from me that the United States, for all its problems, remains the best option out there.
 
2013-08-10 04:34:37 PM  

FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.


No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!
 
2013-08-10 04:37:43 PM  

clancifer: Freeloaders.


I don't know about that. They are living in another country  paying taxes in both countries and if you want to give up your citizenship they slap yo with an exit tax plus they don't even pay back any social security and medicare you may have had to pay into  at some point in your life but won't be able to collect.

I don't think Freeeloaders is the term you are looking for.
 
2013-08-10 04:39:58 PM  

lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!


Considering the top 1% of the country's population controls over 80% of the wealth, I maintain that they're not paying enough in taxes just yet.
 
2013-08-10 04:41:57 PM  

doglover: You still have to pay US tax for 10 years.


Yeah, I hope they hold their breath waiting for that check.

Also, it's not like I'm writing my social security number on my job app in Japan.
Plus, when I was there, they paid us in cash.

When the government makes social security needs based .  (ie you paid in but saved you own money, so you don't get it.)  that number is going to skyrocket.

As for waiting years to get into a nice country all you need is an in demand skill set.
My parachute is New Zealand.  If you have an in demand skill set and a certain amount of money saved to prove you wont be a burden they are very happy to have you over.
Which is our plan if the country goes the way of Detroit.
Or if the world gets all nukie and stuff.

I did the research and inquiries and filled out the forms about a year ago.
Just yesterday I got mail from New Zealand suggesting we come over for 6 months and see if we like living there.

We see ourselves like preppers or survivalists.  Only instead of a bunker in the dirt we have a nice place picks out in Hawks Bay near the beach and a boat.

Here is the list of occupations http://www.immigration.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/063ECB35-F5D5-44D8-8325-7 0 41A727A9D5/0/INZ109311February2013.pdf
I'd guess 80% of the people here qualify.
 
2013-08-10 04:42:29 PM  

lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!


So you don't think the people with nearly all of the money should pay the biggest share of taxes?
 
2013-08-10 04:42:35 PM  
leadmetal:

FloydA: Nope, you're not bound to anything at all. You're free to go. Nobody is stopping you. You go wherever you think is better, and take my blessings and good will with you. If you don't want to, or are not able to, take on the full responsibilities of a citizen, including paying taxes, then go. Find your tax free paradise wherever you can. Send us a postcard.

If were only so easy. Like I stated earlier, the company town makes sure people like myself don't have the means to leave, the means to buy our freedom. The fact you and others defend the company town make it all the more sad. Can't even see it how company town policy became the system of american government we know today.



So... you won't leave because "it's too hard."    You realize that you'd actually have to give up something in order to leave, but you still won't admit that you're getting anything.  You want all the benefits of civilization handed to you on a plate, without having to pay for anything.  (And I bet you have the audacity to use the term "nanny state" too, don't you?)

You mentioned how much better things were 1905 in one of your other posts.  I hope that you haven't been anywhere near New Orleans this year, because in 1905, the city was quarantined due to yellow fever.  Subsequently, thanks to government actions, swamps were drained and bugs sprayed and cities are not closed due to yellow fever anymore.  No individual owned all the swampland, and no business could afford to drain and treat all of it, so no "market-based solution" was possible. You are reveling in the benefit of not dying of preventable illness, thanks to the government.  You might tell yourself that you get nothing of value in exchange for your taxes, but that's nothing more than a comforting self-delusion.

Your tax-free libertarian anarchist paradise would be a hellscape ruled by the biggest bully within a few hours.  That might sound appealing if you believe that you'd be the biggest bully, but in my experience, there is always someone bigger.
 
2013-08-10 04:45:32 PM  
 
2013-08-10 04:45:32 PM  

ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.


From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.
 
2013-08-10 04:45:44 PM  

Infernalist: lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!

Considering the top 1% of the country's population controls over 80% of the wealth, I maintain that they're not paying enough in taxes just yet.


Exactly.  The plutocrats are the ones spending other people's money by gaming the system such that the wealthy get wealthier and the working Joes who actually drive the economy and do all of the work get less of the pie each year.

Between ridiculously low effective corporate tax rates, far too low capital gains taxes, and years of decreasing taxes on the wealthy, the wealthy are paying less a percentage of their income today than ever before even as their total share of wealth has increased.
 
2013-08-10 04:46:27 PM  

Yankees Team Gynecologist: Right off the bat, a strawman--or at best a vague non-statement, since "so many" could mean a lot of things. Great start.


It's to point out there are other ways to do things. You may like having government monopolies on various services but that does not mean they go undone. Government has taken them over one by one, often due to government's previous interventions causing problems.

Yankees Team Gynecologist: So, your comp is the America of 1905--with that economy, that infrastructure, that human rights record, that political system?


The question was how much would I make without modern government services. The answer is more.
Introducing other variables, which are also failures of the state, is simply irrelevant and a distraction to move away from the fact that the question asked did not have the expected answer.

Now you change the terms, so 1951, a time of greatly expanded government services, let's see how that works out. I can only find a rough graph. But using round figures it's still a modest increase over my present salary in 2013 dollars.

Yankees Team Gynecologist: blogs.lclark.edu


Another item of complete irrelevance to the question being answered. It's sad that you have to rely on social technique rather than logic, but the simple fact is your question backfires on you. In a time before government took over all these services, a person of my profession was far better off. Hint: I am no where near rich, just another corporate serf.


Yankees Team Gynecologist: And therein lies the flaw with these conservatards: for all their talk about the "free market,"


Conservatives don't believe in a free market. They are corporatists, just like the american liberals. However they employ the term in their blather much like the liberals employ terms regarding civil rights. It's all just marketing. It doesn't mean anything in a real practical sense.
 
2013-08-10 04:47:31 PM  

verbal_jizm: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

Uh, no. You're misinformed and, apparently, to easily distracted to read even a few posts from this thread.


When it comes to US income taxes, I prefer to believe the opinion of the IRS over that of anonymous FARK users.
 
2013-08-10 04:48:53 PM  

Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.


You were able to look that up and completely miss out on the FTC or the FEIE. Please don't ever become responsible for anyone else's money.
 
2013-08-10 04:51:34 PM  

FloydA: Pumpernickel bread:
Couple of things, first, even with fibbing a little on their tax returns, the wealthy pay far more in taxes than the average person and on average, they receive far fewer government services.

Your first claim, that the wealthy pay far more, is based on a misunderstanding of ratios.  If I'm paying 30% of my income in taxes and Paris Hilton is paying 14% of her income, it is irrelevant that her total contribution is larger than mine; she is being given a benefit that I am not.

Your second claim, that the wealthy receive fewer government services, is patently false.  Roads, bridges, railways, airports, and all of our transportation infrastructure exist largely to allow easy transport of goods from producers to markets.  The wealthy benefit disproportionately from transportation infrastructure.  Police forces and the justice system exist, in large part, to protect property and enforce contracts.  Those who own the most property benefit the most from the existence of our legal and law enforcement system.  FEMA and the National Guard exist, in large part, to protect lives and restore real property in the event of natural disasters.  People who own property benefit from those services, and the more property they own, the more they benefit.

It is popular, among a segment of the population, to assume that "government services" only refers to food stamps and welfare checks, but that is not accurate.


The bottom line is for the big government system to work, we need the wealthy to stick around because they are the ones paying for it all.

Except that, in the US, the middle class are the ones paying for it all.


I understand class envy and resentment for those you perceive as having "more" than you

No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.


To your first point, I misunderstand nothing. You are comparing the long term capital gains tax rate to the income tax rate for upper middle class earner. Hardly the rich vs. poor comparison you were shooting for. Neglected to mention that most of those people paying 30% income tax also own stocks that they will ultimately have to pay the 15% taxon (and I am assuming this includes you).

I would also say your description of "big government" isn't that at all. For the most part, those are basic services any first world govt should provide and I submit to you the U.S. government wouldn't be 17 trillion in the hole (20 if you count the federal reserve balance sheet) if they limited the services they provided to those you listed. Moreover, no one would balk at paying taxes for a govt like that
 
2013-08-10 04:53:46 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: Moreover, no one would balk at paying taxes for a govt like that


Sure you would.
 
2013-08-10 04:57:07 PM  

Infernalist: lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!

Considering the top 1% of the country's population controls over 80% of the wealth, I maintain that they're not paying enough in taxes just yet.


It has been a problem equation for some decades now.  Personally, I am still pissed at the credit default swaps, the Standard and Poor/Moody's AAA shenanigans, and the Fannie/Freddie foolishness from 2005 to 2008.  Not happy at all about that----it's part of what vaulted Obama into office (and I'm not happy about that, either).  Actions have reactions, even in the subjective realms.  What's funny, though, is that even though I may protest a bit, and debate for constraints on taxes, I have continued to pay a large percentage of my earnings to tax requirements.  The "one percent" acted like douchebags with their shenanigans regarding capital manipulation from 2005 to 2008, but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.
 
2013-08-10 05:01:00 PM  

lantawa: but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.


As it should be because they make most of the money. They're still not paying their fair share though.
 
2013-08-10 05:02:18 PM  

lantawa: Infernalist: lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!

Considering the top 1% of the country's population controls over 80% of the wealth, I maintain that they're not paying enough in taxes just yet.

It has been a problem equation for some decades now.  Personally, I am still pissed at the credit default swaps, the Standard and Poor/Moody's AAA shenanigans, and the Fannie/Freddie foolishness from 2005 to 2008.  Not happy at all about that----it's part of what vaulted Obama into office (and I'm not happy about that, either).  Actions have reactions, even in the subjective realms.  What's funny, though, is that even though I may protest a bit, and debate for constraints on taxes, I have continued to pay a large percentage of my earnings to tax requirements.  The "one percent" acted like douchebags with their shenanigans regarding capital manipulation from 2005 to 2008, but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.


Considering that those in the top 1%-20% of the income range are the ones responsible for so many problems in this country by pushing for less corporate and banking regulation (which has lead to many abuses against employees and the economic crisis), by outsourcing jobs and manufacturing to third world countries just to get bigger profits for shareholders, by fighting against unions, by fighting against a higher minimum wage, and by engaging is environmentally destructive business practices that effect the world we all live in, I'm fine with them paying more.  In fact, I'd love to see them pay much, much, much, more than they do.
 
2013-08-10 05:02:25 PM  

FloydA: So... you won't leave because "it's too hard." You realize that you'd actually have to give up something in order to leave, but you still won't admit that you're getting anything.


It's not a matter of too hard. It's a matter that it would cost me a significant amount of savings. Then there are non-economic aspects involved like people. In that regard, as I mentioned earlier, I'd prefer to blow it on expensive cars and expensive women. That's my plan for when things get really bad. I am also considering quitting working when the effective tax rate exceeds 50%. It's closing in on it. I already have a business model for what I would do to get by.

You want all the benefits of civilization handed to you on a plate, without having to pay for anything. (And I bet you have the audacity to use the term "nanny state" too, don't you?)


I am one of the people that builds and maintains civilization. Without people like me you'd be living a hunter-gatherer life style. Oh wait, someone like me came up with the first weapons to hunt with. You'd be a starving gatherer who couldn't find enough berries. Then you'd try to get someone else to beat up a hunter so you could eat. That big bully who got food for you would become your government.
 

You mentioned how much better things were 1905 in one of your other posts. I hope that you haven't been anywhere near New Orleans this year, because in 1905, the city was quarantined due to yellow fever. Subsequently, thanks to government actions, swamps were drained and bugs sprayed and cities are not closed due to yellow fever anymore. No individual owned all the swampland, and no business could afford to drain and treat all of it, so no "market-based solution" was possible. You are reveling in the benefit of not dying of preventable illness, thanks to the government. You might tell yourself that you get nothing of value in exchange for your taxes, but that's nothing more than a comforting self-delusion.

Why do statists continually reply with irrelevancies? The question asked was, what would my compensation be without all these services we know today provided by government. It was an attempt to show that the benefit is greater than the services I actually receive. That is that somehow I receive value for what I pay rather than subsidizing others. The simple calculation shows my compensation with all this modern government is less, thus the question did not turn out as the person asking it had hoped. Introducing other factors is just plain irrelevant nonsense.

BTW Today your government considers those swamps protected wetlands and thus cannot be drained. Live by the state, die by the state.

Your tax-free libertarian anarchist paradise would be a hellscape ruled by the biggest bully within a few hours. That might sound appealing if you believe that you'd be the biggest bully, but in my experience, there is always someone bigger.

So you say it would be little different than now, where we are ruled over by the biggest bully. Ruled by a mafia that demands a cut or else. Oh but today's version has fancy badges and uniforms... I guess that makes it all ok.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngpsJKQR_ZE
 
2013-08-10 05:04:32 PM  
FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


Well you do realize if you are a US citizen living overseas you have to pay the US govt taxes on money you made overseas even though you are living overseas and using none of the US govts services? I don't think any other country's require citizens not still living in them to pay tax on income they made in whatever country they are now living in.
 
2013-08-10 05:06:08 PM  

Oldiron_79: FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Well you do realize if you are a US citizen living overseas you have to pay the US govt taxes on money you made overseas even though you are living overseas and using none of the US govts services? I don't think any other country's require citizens not still living in them to pay tax on income they made in whatever country they are now living in.


Unless you're getting taxed by that other country, in which case you get to deduct that from the taxes you pay to the US.
 
2013-08-10 05:06:14 PM  

verbal_jizm: Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.

You were able to look that up and completely miss out on the FTC or the FEIE. Please don't ever become responsible for anyone else's money.


You have to qualify to both FTC and FEIE.  They both include the text "you MAY be able to qualify UP TO A CERTAIN AMOUNT".  It is not a given, and not your full income.
 
2013-08-10 05:09:28 PM  

Joe Peanut: verbal_jizm: Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.

You were able to look that up and completely miss out on the FTC or the FEIE. Please don't ever become responsible for anyone else's money.

You have to qualify to both FTC and FEIE.  They both include the text "you MAY be able to qualify UP TO A CERTAIN AMOUNT".  It is not a given, and not your full income.


The FEIE applies up to $97000 of your income, the FTC applies beyond that. Seriously, don't ever become an accountant.
 
2013-08-10 05:12:18 PM  

bikkurikun: ManifestDestiny:

According to whomever it was I spoke with at the embassy, yes. If you renounce and then switch citizenships, you get a 10 year timeout.

Not true. You can just get a tourist visa and visit. I have a good friend who changed citizenship two years ago and he still visits the U.S. multiple times a year. The only thing is that you in theory can get blacklisted if the citizenship changed is deemed to have been purely for tax reasons, but in practice this is never enforced.  No idea what the 10 year limit is, maybe 10 years before you can apply for U.S. citizenship again?


There are no restrictions to entering the US other than than those for other non-citizens with your same status in other countries. However, if you spend 30 days in the US in any calendar year for the 10 years after renouncing your citizenship you are taxed as if you were a citizen. In addition, any US investment income is taxed at the lesser of 30% and your marginal rate. Then you have significant taxes that any US persons receiving gifts or bequests for you.
 
2013-08-10 05:17:11 PM  

leadmetal: The question was how much would I make without modern government services. The answer is more.


Doubtful.  Show your work.  Just because you applied an inflation formula to the average income from 1905 in your industry (data that may not even be accurate) doesn't mean you should be making that much today.  Industries and jobs grow and shrink with the times, like phone operators and milkmen.  And America wasn't even really a first-world country in 1905.  If you want lower taxes and at least a 1905-USA standard of living, at least one of the Baltic states would probably suit you.

Do you work in a specific industry that was particularly botched by government intervention and waste?  That seems to be your argument.  And no, don't say "that's all industries."  It would have to be an industry that was especially harmed such that all the gains from the proliferation of infrastructure and government-sponsored technology (like the internet) were erased, and then some.  I can't think of one of the top of my head but I'm open to the possibility that a few exist.
 
2013-08-10 05:18:43 PM  

lantawa: Infernalist: lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!

Considering the top 1% of the country's population controls over 80% of the wealth, I maintain that they're not paying enough in taxes just yet.

It has been a problem equation for some decades now.  Personally, I am still pissed at the credit default swaps, the Standard and Poor/Moody's AAA shenanigans, and the Fannie/Freddie foolishness from 2005 to 2008.  Not happy at all about that----it's part of what vaulted Obama into office (and I'm not happy about that, either).  Actions have reactions, even in the subjective realms.  What's funny, though, is that even though I may protest a bit, and debate for constraints on taxes, I have continued to pay a large percentage of my earnings to tax requirements.  The "one percent" acted like douchebags with their shenanigans regarding capital manipulation from 2005 to 2008, but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.


I don't think 'disproportionate' means what you think it means.

1% of the population controls over 80% of the wealth in the nation and they don't pay 80% of the taxes.

Or do you expect the poorest parts of the population to pay the vast majority of taxes?

This is how I see you:  Three men sitting at a table with a dozen cookies.  The first guy takes 11 cookies and gives one to the other two guys.  The second guy gets mad at the first guy, while the third guy is pissed at the second guy for wanting some of his cookie.

You're the third guy.  You're too busy getting pissed at people in far worse shape than yourself, while ignoring the bloated rich farks who continue to bleed this country dry.

You know, I lived through the Cold War days and I remember a lot of the old Soviet propaganda.  They called capitalists 'leeches' and 'parasites.'  Back then, I was too young to see those as anything more than insults.

Now, I can see why they'd call capitalists leeches and parasites.  They're killing this country.
 
2013-08-10 05:18:54 PM  

verbal_jizm: lantawa: but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.

As it should be because they make most of the money. They're still not paying their fair share though.


I guess that's the big debate....it's all a matter of percentages.

I can tell you something right now, and let's use a round figure of 1 million.

Last year, a capital gain tax of 15% on 1 MIL capital gains would have been $150K.

This year, with a revised 20% capital gains tax, PLUS a 3.8% Obamacare tax, the tax on that same 1MIL capital event is----$238,000.

Does that make you happy?  Will $88,000 EXTRA dollars, beyond last year's tax receipts, on this theoretical one-time capital event of a 1MIL transaction make you happy?

Large capital events that are taxable are a BIG deal to those people who are undergoing the events.  People's retirement plans rest significantly on how much will be TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM in the tax phase of their cash-ins.

I'm thinking that, maybe, yaknow, let's all get beyond the LCD that civil law represents, and let's all start pulling towards a more character-filled and spiritual set of values that involves self-improvement, self-sufficiency, and respect for ourselves and others. You could see your way to that, right?
 
2013-08-10 05:19:44 PM  

Joe Peanut: verbal_jizm: Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.

You were able to look that up and completely miss out on the FTC or the FEIE. Please don't ever become responsible for anyone else's money.

You have to qualify to both FTC and FEIE.  They both include the text "you MAY be able to qualify UP TO A CERTAIN AMOUNT".  It is not a given, and not your full income.


If you are living overseas you will qualify for the FEIE. If you live in a foreign country for a full calendar year and pay taxes there you will qualify under the BFR. If you spend 330 days outside the US in a 12 month period you qualify under the PPT.

Every US resident or citizen is eligible for an FTC for foreign taxes paid. You can claim the lesser of the foreign taxes paid or the US tax on your foreign income. If all your income is in Brazil and you pay higher taxes in Brazil you will have zero US taxes.
 
2013-08-10 05:21:52 PM  
leadmetal: It's not a matter of too hard. It's a matter that it would cost me a significant amount of savings. Then there are non-economic aspects involved like people.

Yep.  You would have to give up the benefits of living in a civilized society, and that would be hard.  To actually make it work, you'd have to do something, rather than just posting on the (government created) internet about how rugged and individualistic you are.  You claim to be John Galt, but as soon as someone points at the door, you refuse to walk through.  You're a manly man, one of the strong and powerful creators of society who provides food for the poor wretched "takers" like me, but you can't bear the thought of actually striking out on your own.  Typical libertarian; lots of talk, but not much action.

Why do statists continually reply with irrelevancies? The question asked was, what would my compensation be without all these services we know today provided by government. It was an attempt to show that the benefit is greater than the services I actually receive. That is that somehow I receive value for what I pay rather than subsidizing others. The simple calculation shows my compensation with all this modern government is less, thus the question did not turn out as the person asking it had hoped. Introducing other factors is just plain irrelevant nonsense.

One of those "services" that you take for granted is disease control.  If you consider not being dead of yellow fever to be an insufficient benefit, then you and I just have very, very different perspectives about life.
 
2013-08-10 05:26:24 PM  
So you are giving up your citizenship? Where do you run to?

"Not too long ago two friends of mine were talking to a Cuban refugee, a businessman who had escaped from Castro, and in the midst of his story one of my friends turned to the other and said, "We don't know how lucky we are." And the Cuban stopped and said, "How lucky you are! I had someplace to escape to." In that sentence he told us the entire story. If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth. "
-- Ronald Reagan

I know, I know some are going to ay x, y and z countries have more freedom but you would have been lying, particular on issues like free speech, privacy and gun rights etc, and No, I don't consider a bunch of free stuff from a cradle to grave welfare state part of being free. You are just free of some of the burdens of freedom-self responsibility and self reliance. Without those burdens you are not really free just more reliant on the generosity of politicians with other people's money.

So having decided to leave the America that could have been where to go knowing that for the most part they are the never was or will be? You could stay knowing that the US will be like the rest of them, perhaps in your lifetime. You can't pick a low tax low services state to live in because the heavy had of the Federal government still reaches in. So no it is time for you to leave but where to go?

Many of the so called good places have pretty strict immigration laws, that would shock our open borders progressives, these may include: have a marketable skill their country needs, already having a job waiting for you when get there, money to live on for x amount time, money for plane ticket back, pass a medical screening, pass a background check, private health insurance (yes they may have socialized medicine but some countries.require new arrivals to have private insurance coverage for x amount of time) Forget about voting (not that we Americans have had much of a choice lately). Many communities and regions are like living with a hyper HOA probably necessary given the cramped urban living of many destinations you might choose from.

If you can get pass the restrictions their are many countries to chose from. Australia and New Zealand of course come to mind. I lean toward Iceland-kind of like Volcanoes but jobs opportunities are not great. Also think about Singapore.

FYI Australia is offering relaxed immigration rules for EX US military with certain skills they need mostly Navy submarine types-worth looking into if you are willing to serve in the Australian Military-whic is a professional group IMHO.

I have written off Central and South America has my time down South says nice place to visit but.....


So where do you run to?

YO have basically decided to give up liviing in a place that had so much potential but is failing for place
 
2013-08-10 05:26:28 PM  

RightToWork: Yankees Team Gynecologist: And therein lies the flaw with these conservatards: for all their talk about the "free market," they can never come up with a market comp example to back up their claim that personal income taxes are too high here.  Always complaining that this country is overpriced for what they're getting, but never showing what else is available.

They're like Corvette fans, except if no Corvette actually existed.

The silver lining of this recession is it seems to have quieted the Fark Consensus from the 2005-2008 period that Europe was a socially enlightened paradise in which life was a giant vacation shared by all, and public streets unencumbered by vehicles richly flowed with government milk and honey.

No argument from me that the United States, for all its problems, remains the best option out there.



This.

Talk to someone from another country that came here because there were more opportunities to keep your own money.  I know plenty of Canadian / French / Belgian folks to have no equivocations expounding on why the USA is great for taxes.  Belgian guy was complaining about 50% tax rate.
 
2013-08-10 05:29:38 PM  

Infernalist: You know, I lived through the Cold War days and I remember a lot of the old Soviet propaganda.  They called capitalists 'leeches' and 'parasites.'  Back then, I was too young to see those as anything more than insults.

Now, I can see why they'd call capitalists leeches and parasites.  They're killing this country.


Heya, sport. Let's look at the paragraph from the article that I linked. Here it is: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Read that, Infernalist, and, truly, CHOKE ON IT. I also lived through the Cold War times, and I learned and KNOW that communists are the ratlike filth of the world, colluding with and scheming with the nihilists, apocalyptists, and other fringe rodents of the philosophical night that sometimes deign to pretend that they have anything of value to contribute to the lives of men and women.
 
2013-08-10 05:29:44 PM  

lantawa: verbal_jizm: lantawa: but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.

As it should be because they make most of the money. They're still not paying their fair share though.

I guess that's the big debate....it's all a matter of percentages.

I can tell you something right now, and let's use a round figure of 1 million.

Last year, a capital gain tax of 15% on 1 MIL capital gains would have been $150K.

This year, with a revised 20% capital gains tax, PLUS a 3.8% Obamacare tax, the tax on that same 1MIL capital event is----$238,000.

Does that make you happy?  Will $88,000 EXTRA dollars, beyond last year's tax receipts, on this theoretical one-time capital event of a 1MIL transaction make you happy?

Large capital events that are taxable are a BIG deal to those people who are undergoing the events.  People's retirement plans rest significantly on how much will be TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM in the tax phase of their cash-ins.

I'm thinking that, maybe, yaknow, let's all get beyond the LCD that civil law represents, and let's all start pulling towards a more character-filled and spiritual set of values that involves self-improvement, self-sufficiency, and respect for ourselves and others. You could see your way to that, right?


I'd be happy if capital gains were taxed at the same rate as regular income (with no deductions) which would make the tax bill for that $1,000,000 capital gains profit approximately $361,000 with our current brackets

I'd rather see the top bracket at closer to 50% than the current 39.6% though.
 
2013-08-10 05:32:18 PM  
Give them credit, at least they are actually "leaving the country".  Unlike so many who have threatened to do so if so and so is elected, yet here they still are.
 
2013-08-10 05:35:20 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: lantawa: verbal_jizm: lantawa: but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.

As it should be because they make most of the money. They're still not paying their fair share though.

I guess that's the big debate....it's all a matter of percentages.

I can tell you something right now, and let's use a round figure of 1 million.

Last year, a capital gain tax of 15% on 1 MIL capital gains would have been $150K.

This year, with a revised 20% capital gains tax, PLUS a 3.8% Obamacare tax, the tax on that same 1MIL capital event is----$238,000.

Does that make you happy?  Will $88,000 EXTRA dollars, beyond last year's tax receipts, on this theoretical one-time capital event of a 1MIL transaction make you happy?

Large capital events that are taxable are a BIG deal to those people who are undergoing the events.  People's retirement plans rest significantly on how much will be TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM in the tax phase of their cash-ins.

I'm thinking that, maybe, yaknow, let's all get beyond the LCD that civil law represents, and let's all start pulling towards a more character-filled and spiritual set of values that involves self-improvement, self-sufficiency, and respect for ourselves and others. You could see your way to that, right?

I'd be happy if capital gains were taxed at the same rate as regular income (with no deductions) which would make the tax bill for that $1,000,000 capital gains profit approximately $361,000 with our current brackets

I'd rather see the top bracket at closer to 50% than the current 39.6% though.


When going through the brackets, there's going to be some room for negotiation, always.  I get that.  I think that you're a touch high on what would make you happy, but I'm not losing sleep over the current ratios that are in place.  I'm not rich, so a lot of this stuff does not bug me too much, but every now and then I see that I'm paying X number of thousands more under a Democratic Pres than I would probably be paying under a Repub, and I get a tad clutchy with my money.  Only human, I guess.
 
2013-08-10 05:36:48 PM  

lantawa: Infernalist: You know, I lived through the Cold War days and I remember a lot of the old Soviet propaganda.  They called capitalists 'leeches' and 'parasites.'  Back then, I was too young to see those as anything more than insults.

Now, I can see why they'd call capitalists leeches and parasites.  They're killing this country.

Heya, sport. Let's look at the paragraph from the article that I linked. Here it is: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Read that, Infernalist, and, truly, CHOKE ON IT. I also lived through the Cold War times, and I learned and KNOW that communists are the ratlike filth of the world, colluding with and scheming with the nihilists, apocalyptists, and other fringe rodents of the philosophical night that sometimes deign to pretend that they have anything of value to contribute to the lives of men and women.


And they hate paying every single last penny of those taxes.  They spend thousands of dollars a year, paying men to find any and every way that they can find to get out of paying those taxes.  They break laws, they bribe Congressmen for new loopholes and clauses to get out of paying those taxes.  They store money in off-shore accounts to avoid paying taxes, they hide it in shell corporations and generally 'hate' paying back into this country that made their wealth possible.

And for all those taxes that they do pay, THEY AREN'T PAYING ENOUGH.  They control the vast majority of wealth in this country and work hard to increase that 80+%, they do whatever they can to move that wealth from the bottom up to the top.  And once they get it, they sit on it and make stupid noises about 'trickle down theory.'

So, with all that said, let me repeat myself: Capitalists are parasites and leeches that are killing this country.  This thread is based on an article talking about how rich people are increasingly fleeing the country in order to avoid paying those taxes that they owe.  They're not Americans, they're rich farks who just want to find the best place to live where they can pay the least possible in taxes.  They're the typical 'noble class' that flees every country when the poor finally have enough and rise up to tear them down.
 
2013-08-10 05:41:25 PM  
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This string of dollar signs represents the number of people who  became US citizens last year.

$
This string of dollar signs rerepsents the number of people who renounced their US citizenship last year (an all time high)

I think we'll be OK.
 
2013-08-10 05:43:50 PM  

ayenull: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Yes. Why do you continue to troll? You are absolutely farking terrible at it.


Troll? What's there to troll?

The link above to a blog post which cites a WSJ online post vindicates my position on Obama's economic policies in regard to discouraging private market job growth.

Some of y'all Farklibs have a funny definition of "trolling."
 
2013-08-10 05:46:26 PM  

Fizpez: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
This string of dollar signs represents the number of people who  became US citizens last year.

$
This string of dollar signs rerepsents the number of people who renounced their US citizenship last year (an all time high)

I think we'll be OK.


So do I, but your numbers are meaningless. Not all citizens pay the same amount of taxes and it's well known that the rich pay far more in taxes than lower income citizens.
 
2013-08-10 05:52:09 PM  

Aristocles: Fizpez: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
This string of dollar signs represents the number of people who  became US citizens last year.

$
This string of dollar signs rerepsents the number of people who renounced their US citizenship last year (an all time high)

I think we'll be OK.

So do I, but your numbers are meaningless. Not all citizens pay the same amount of taxes and it's well known that the rich pay far more in taxes than lower income citizens.


Actually most of the people renouncing have never paid any US taxes - and pretty much ALL of the ones becoming US citizens will pay some.  As has been AMPLY described in the thread "normal" people living and working overseas have plenty of ways to avoid paying twice on the same income - theyll figure out the new laws.  People who have lived their entire life outside the US but have a US passport because their mom or dad was an American 50 years ago will probably renounce - they've never filed US taxes and arent about to start now.  Nothing is really lost as I am sure they're happy living where they do.

I'd be happy if they fixed the tax code so 500 companies didnt all have "headquarters" in the same building in the Cayman Islands or some other tax dodge - this legal change is just so individuals can't pull the same shiat.
 
2013-08-10 05:52:59 PM  

Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.


^^^^See people, this is why we don't let brothers and sisters fark.

Here you go buddy.
Tax guide for U.S citizens and resident aliens living abroad


You may be able to exclude up to $95,100 ofyour foreign earned income in 2012. You cannot exclude more than the smaller of $95,000 or Your foreign earned income (discussed earlier) for the tax year minus your foreign housing exclusion (discussed later). If both you and your spouse work abroad and each of you meets either the bona fide residence test or the physical presence test, you can each choose the foreign earned income exclusion. You do not both need to meet the same test. Together, you and your spouse can exclude as much as $190,20

You can take either a credit or a deduction for income taxes paid to a foreign country or a U.S. possession. Taken as a deduction, foreign income taxes reduce your taxable income. Taken as a credit, foreign income taxes reduce your tax liability.



So basically if you make under 97k(it was raised from 95k), you don't have to pay U.S taxes. If you make over that and pay taxes in a foreign country, those taxes you paid there will offset the U.S taxes, and in most cases since the U.S has the lowest tax rates in the world, you won't be paying any U.S taxes.


So the scenario you dreamed up earlier won't happen unless the person is a complete moron, kinda like yourself.
 
2013-08-10 05:53:55 PM  

Infernalist: And they hate paying every single last penny of those taxes. They spend thousands of dollars a year, paying men to find any and every way that they can find to get out of paying those taxes. They break laws, they bribe Congressmen for new loopholes and clauses to get out of paying those taxes. They store money in off-shore accounts to avoid paying taxes, they hide it in shell corporations and generally 'hate' paying back into this country that made their wealth possible.


As is their wont which is perfectly legal.

Infernalist: And for all those taxes that they do pay, THEY AREN'T PAYING ENOUGH. They control the vast majority of wealth in this country and work hard to increase that 80+%, they do whatever they can to move that wealth from the bottom up to the top. And once they get it, they sit on it and make stupid noises about 'trickle down theory.'


You're assuming, incorrectly I might add, that ours is a zero-sum economy. Not true. One can be prosperous without it coming at the expense of someone else's well-being. In fact, the more prosperity the better.

Infernalist: So, with all that said, let me repeat myself: Capitalists are parasites and leeches that are killing this country. This thread is based on an article talking about how rich people are increasingly fleeing the country in order to avoid paying those taxes that they owe. They're not Americans, they're rich farks who just want to find the best place to live where they can pay the least possible in taxes. They're the typical 'noble class' that flees every country when the poor finally have enough and rise up to tear them down.


Pardon? Are you referring to the college kids, hippies and anarchists of OWS who stood around in a park while the rest of us worked or looked for jobs?

The poor are hardly the reason that rich folks seek to live in locations where they won't be molested by burdensome taxes. Rather, it's the government.
 
2013-08-10 05:56:46 PM  

ongbok: Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.

^^^^See people, this is why we don't let brothers and sisters fark.

Here you go buddy.
Tax guide for U.S citizens and resident aliens living abroad


You may be able to exclude up to $95,100 ofyour foreign earned income in 2012. You cannot exclude more than the smaller of $95,000 or Your foreign earned income (discussed earlier) for the tax year minus your foreign housing exclusion (discussed later). If both you and your spouse work abroad and each of you meets either the bona fide residence test or the physical presence test, you can each choose the foreign earned income exclusion. You do not both need to meet the same test. Together, you and your spouse can exclude as much as $190,20

You can take either a credit or a deduction for income taxes paid to a foreign country or a U.S. possession. Taken as a deduction, foreign income taxes reduce your taxable income. Taken as a credit, foreign incom ...


But even above the 97000 they can use the FTC.
 
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