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(TaxProf)   Number of taxpayers who renounced U.S. citizenship hits record high. And that's not even counting Edward Snowden   (taxprof.typepad.com) divider line 355
    More: Interesting, U.S. Citizenship, hit records, U.S.  
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8070 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Aug 2013 at 1:40 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-10 02:49:54 PM

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


What services are those you farking retard? I haven't lived in the states for years, I only go (irregularly) to see family and the IRS wants me to pay taxes every year? For what? Your wars? Preventing abortions? Making sure only white people can vote if at all possible? Are you retarded?
 
2013-08-10 02:50:45 PM

generallyso: Southern100: That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.

Romney is one of the people who crafted that system.


The idea was to encourage investment to stimulate the economy instead of sticking the cash in your mattress. Stimulating the wallets of fund managers was a nice side effect.
 
2013-08-10 02:51:00 PM

Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.


So goes the mantra of claiming right to the property of others.

The taxes on a gallon of gas pay for the same use of services. As supposedly does sales tax and utility taxes (many of which were passed as a way to tax the rich who had the utilities first). Social security benefits do not extend upwards beyond the point to which they are taxed. Thus what you are demanding isn't that people who can afford the very expensive process (with some exceptions for some people due to their ancestry)  of leaving the US forever pay for what they use, you are demanding they pay for what other people use.

Thus the services argument is complete bullshiat. Instead what you are doing (beyond justifying theft) is trying to punish the slave that ran away from massa. Why does the runaway slave need to be punished? Because now someone else has to do the runaway's share of the cotton picking along with his own. Also massa has become far more harsh on those who remain on the plantation. The idea of telling massa to fark off doesn't even come up.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:51:24 PM

ManifestDestiny: As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.


Well, consular workers are probably not the people to go to for tax advice.  Did you look at the IRS website?  It sounds like you have gotten some bad advice or taken some spin too seriously,

It would have been sad if you renounced your citizenship to avoid a tax disadvantage that doesn't exist.
 
2013-08-10 02:51:46 PM

ManifestDestiny: dywed88: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

If you are paying tax in the US on Norwegian income you are probably doing something wrong, and if Norwegian taxes are that low you don't have much to complain about. FEIE and FTCs should more than cover your US taxes in pretty much any developed nation barring some weird circumstances. If you have trusts or a corporation or certain types of investments, than you can get some expensive filings but if you just need a 1040, two 1116s and an FBAR it shouldn't be that bad. It is the information returns that are the real problem.

As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.


As a summary:

For employment income you can claim a section 911 exclusion, known as the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion or FEIE, on form 2555. This allows you to exclude up to $97,600 USD of foreign employment or business income from US taxes. This is somewhat simpler to file than an FTC (explained later), so if doing it yourself and you income is all from employment it is probably the better option. This also applies if your local tax rate is lower than in the US.

If you have more income than the limit and/or income that isn't covered you ill need to claim a Foreign Tax Credit (FTC) using form 1116. This can be somewhat more complicated, but is the preferred option if you are in a jurisdiction with higher tax rates than the US. With an FTC, you report to the IRS your Norwegian taxes (and this likely includes some social security taxes, but that is on a case-by-case basis and I can't comment on Norway) and you can claim a credit against US taxes on your foreign income. If your Norwegian taxes are greater than the US ones you will get credit against all US taxes you would otherwise owe. If you have income from US sources, you will still have to pay some to the IRS, but you can get the same credit from Norway for US taxes paid.

The first year especially get a professional to prepare it so that you have a reference if you decide to do it on your own in the future. It will likely cost a couple grand, but I assume you will net more than that from a job. If you were talking to IRS people at the embassy they were probably incompetent, lazy, or both. Talk to an accountant instead (one with US cross border specialists, preferably from a firm with a presence in both the US and Norway). It will cost a bit but they generally know more far than the front line IRS people (and have an incentive to help you minimize taxes as they want your references and business).
 
2013-08-10 02:52:01 PM

Hobodeluxe: that's funny I just had a friend in NY who incorporated himself and his IT business (him and his wife working from home for the most part, she is on there for health insurance savings only ) and it was amazing how easy it was and how much money he is saving.


As a cpa who has dealt with NY and NYC residents and business that is BS. From either you, your friend or both.
 
2013-08-10 02:54:25 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Some people don't base their lives around national boundaries, and want to live wherever without being penalized for it. The US is about the only western government on the planet that doesn't comprehend this. If a person makes a living in a foreign country, under what right does the US have claim to a share? Are we really going to run with the juvenile concept that it's a membership fee of some kind?


Have you missed all of the posts explaining that, if you are taxed at a higher rate in another country, you don't pay anything to the US (on foreign earned income). Even if you aren't taxed at a higher rate than the US charges, you still get to deduct the foreign taxes from the US federal taxes you pay. Are you confused or something?
 
2013-08-10 02:54:31 PM

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


Couple of things, first, even with fibbing a little on their tax returns, the wealthy pay far more in taxes than the average person and on average, they receive far fewer government services.  The bottom line is for the big government system to work, we need the wealthy to stick around because they are the ones paying for it all.  I understand class envy and resentment for those you perceive as having "more" than you, but "GTFO" is not what we should be saying to those that fund the government.

France and England have been dealing with this very same issue recently.   The number of millionaires in England dropped by 2/3 after a big hike to their taxes and of course the issue in France was highlighted by Gerard Depardieu renouncing his French citizenship over taxes.
 
2013-08-10 02:55:06 PM

badhatharry: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

Well, since you are serious. You are paying income tax on wages earned. Mitt is paying capital gains tax on returns on investments.  Mitt would pay 30% if he earned a wage at a job. You would pay about 14% if you cashed out your 401K.


Southern100:

If you made more than 50% of your "income" from Capital Gains, you wouldn't have a 30% tax rate either.

That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.



I'm aware of the mechanisms.  I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income.  I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

(I know the actual reason is that rich people write the laws, I was asking for someone to tell me the "rationalization" that makes those laws acceptable to about half of the voters.)
 
2013-08-10 02:55:38 PM

xxdangerbobxx: What services are those you farking retard? I haven't lived in the states for years, I only go (irregularly) to see family and the IRS wants me to pay taxes every year? For what? Your wars? Preventing abortions? Making sure only white people can vote if at all possible? Are you retarded?


Are you? Or are you just living in a tax haven?

If you're living outside the US, the foreign tax credit stipulates that any taxes paid overseas offset any US taxes owed.  So unless you're living in some low-tax or no-tax haven, you shouldn't owe much, if anything.

You're telling me that if your current place of residence turned to shiat tomorrow you wouldn't pack up and head back to the good ole' USA?  Your passport is a fallback.  If having a fallback isn't important to you, then give back the passport and live a happy life overseas.
 
2013-08-10 02:55:52 PM

jnapier: Just because you renounce your citizenship does NOT mean you cant live in America.
Where do you get the idea they have to live in ButtFyckistan?

By the way.  California raised the state tax on people making more than $1M a few years ago.
They thought this would raise revenue.
What happened is that those making more than $1M left the state.

The net result was LESS taxes from rich people.
Questions? See Detroit.


Except, what actually happened was a couple news stations made noise about millionaires leaving, when there was actually a net gain of millionaires moving into the state.

"THESE 5 MILLIONAIRES LEFT CALIFORNIA BECAUSE OF TAXES but never mind that these 7 moved in during the same period."
 
2013-08-10 02:56:04 PM

iheartscotch: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

The same reason Al Gore gets into his private plane



DRINK
 
2013-08-10 02:57:07 PM

xxdangerbobxx: FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

What services are those you farking retard? I haven't lived in the states for years, I only go (irregularly) to see family and the IRS wants me to pay taxes every year? For what? Your wars? Preventing abortions? Making sure only white people can vote if at all possible? Are you retarded?



Zero to [PLONK] in one post.  Impressive.
 
2013-08-10 02:57:49 PM

RandomRandom: vpb: Uh, no. I have lived overseas myself, and it doesn't work that way.

You aren't "taxed twice over", unless you just don't bother to take the Foreign Tax Credit. If you pay more taxes in Norway than in the US you should owe nothing in taxes to the IRS.

Exactly right.  The taxes in places like Norway are far higher than they are in the US.  Perhaps outside some very exceptional circumstances, no US citizen living in Norway should have to pay any US tax.  If you are, it's time to get a new accountant.


One caveat: other countries don't necessarily calculate taxes in the same way.  In the US, everything is calculated as a percentage of gross income - X% in federal income taxes, Y% for state income taxes, Z% for local income taxes.  But here in France, for example, my income taxes are calculated as a percentage of the net that remains after they take out the withholdings for social security, medical, retirement, etc.  And that's a lot of money - up to a third of my pre-tax gross income, in fact.  So much so that if I were merely to claim the credit for the income tax I pay to the French government against my US tax liability (instead of the foreign earned income exclusion), I'd fall about $6,000 short on my US tax liabilities.

Now, the income tax scale here ramps up pretty quickly, so that you hit the top bracket with the 41% marginal rate at around 72,000€/year.  So if you're above the Earned Income Tax Credit, I believe you have a fair bit of headroom until you cross the line and start owing US taxes on top of French ones.  Needless to say, I'm not there yet.
 
2013-08-10 02:58:01 PM
I guess we'll just annex the Cayman's.

Bastards blew up our steamship
 
2013-08-10 02:59:00 PM

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.


Serves you right for muddying your bath of birth with laplanders and square heads.  Should have stayed at home and married a Mexican.
 
2013-08-10 02:59:27 PM
I'm as much of a "Fark you, pay your damn taxes" guy as they come, but I don't see what right the US govt has to tax money made overseas. If you don't live here, don't work here, and don't invest here, you shouldn't be taxed here. I can see some sort of mandatory payout to keep you eligible for SS and Medicare if you come back, but what's the logic of income tax?
 
2013-08-10 03:00:05 PM

MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?


Need the tax revenue right now and what will stop the new millionaires from making the same choice the ones of today are once they finally reach that point?
 
2013-08-10 03:04:45 PM

Pumpernickel bread: they receive far fewer government services


Bullshiat. Most of the wealth they generate depends on infrastructure that is payed for directly or indirectly by federal taxes.
 
2013-08-10 03:06:06 PM

MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?


It's getting there. Making billionaires out of millionaires is becoming easier if you have the right friends in govt., but the average Joe starting a business and becoming rich is becoming much more difficult.
 
2013-08-10 03:06:38 PM

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


Then you are an idiot.

If you are making under 98k I think it is now, you don't have to pay federal income tax in the U.S. If you are making more than that, but are also paying taxes in your host country, those taxes will be deducted from what you owe in federal U.S income taxes, which in most cases since the U.S has the lowest income tax rate in the industrialize world means you won't pay any federal U.S income taxes. So either you are lying or your an idiot that is throwing money away because you are too lazy to do some paper work.

These new reporting laws are in place to get people who are hiding money overseas.
 
2013-08-10 03:07:09 PM

vpb: ManifestDestiny: As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.

Well, consular workers are probably not the people to go to for tax advice.  Did you look at the IRS website?  It sounds like you have gotten some bad advice or taken some spin too seriously,

It would have been sad if you renounced your citizenship to avoid a tax disadvantage that doesn't exist.


The embassy here does offer tax advice. Or did at the time in question.  I don't know if they still do.  I haven't been up there in a while.
 
GBB [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:07:12 PM

TopoGigo: I'm as much of a "Fark you, pay your damn taxes" guy as they come, but I don't see what right the US govt has to tax money made overseas. If you don't live here, don't work here, and don't invest here, you shouldn't be taxed here. I can see some sort of mandatory payout to keep you eligible for SS and Medicare if you come back, but what's the logic of income tax?


As a US citizen, you enjoy all sorts of perks such as government assistance in the event that you end up being kidnapped or some such.  I'm sure someone out there, especially someone that works overseas, can elaborate on what all US citizens have available to them while overseas.
 
2013-08-10 03:07:25 PM

FloydA: badhatharry: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

Well, since you are serious. You are paying income tax on wages earned. Mitt is paying capital gains tax on returns on investments.  Mitt would pay 30% if he earned a wage at a job. You would pay about 14% if you cashed out your 401K.

Southern100:

If you made more than 50% of your "income" from Capital Gains, you wouldn't have a 30% tax rate either.

That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.


I'm aware of the mechanisms.  I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income.  I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

(I know the actual reason is that rich people write the laws, I was asking for someone to tell me the "rationalization" that makes those laws acceptable to about half of the voters.)


Because it encourages people to invest instead of save. If taxes are too high on any profit, it might not be worth risking their money.  Things will get ugly if people start saving their money.
 
2013-08-10 03:08:52 PM

FloydA: iheartscotch: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

The same reason Al Gore gets into his private plane


DRINK


Pretty much.

The real answer to your question is, the system is broken. We should burn it down, collect the insurance money and start from scratch.
 
2013-08-10 03:09:05 PM

ongbok: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

Then you are an idiot.

If you are making under 98k I think it is now, you don't have to pay federal income tax in the U.S. If you are making more than that, but are also paying taxes in your host country, those taxes will be deducted from what you owe in federal U.S income taxes, which in most cases since the U.S has the lowest income tax rate in the industrialize world means you won't pay any federal U.S income taxes. So either you are lying or your an idiot that is throwing money away because you are too lazy to do some paper work.

These new reporting laws are in place to get people who are hiding money overseas.


Way to not read the thread.  Congrats.  Feel special today.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:09:22 PM

Robo Beat: One caveat: other countries don't necessarily calculate taxes in the same way.  In the US, everything is calculated as a percentage of gross income - X% in federal income taxes, Y% for state income taxes, Z% for local income taxes.  But here in France, for example, my income taxes are calculated as a percentage of the net that remains after they take out the withholdings for social security, medical, retirement, etc.  And that's a lot of money - up to a third of my pre-tax gross income, in fact.  So much so that if I were merely to claim the credit for the income tax I pay to the French government against my US tax liability (instead of the foreign earned income exclusion), I'd fall about $6,000 short on my US tax liabilities.

Now, the income tax scale here ramps up pretty quickly, so that you hit the top bracket with the 41% marginal rate at around 72,000€/year.  So if you're above the Earned Income Tax Credit, I believe you have a fair bit of headroom until you cross the line and start owing US taxes on top of French ones.  Needless to say, I'm not there yet.


The Foreign Earned Income Exemption is $97,600 for 2013.  And it sounds like the taxes in France are lower than I thought.
 
2013-08-10 03:10:38 PM
So it looks like about 2000 people so far have renounced citizenship, out of a population of 350 Million or so. It's a rounding error on a rounding error. And no analysis that demonstrates that most of these people are ultra wealthy and paying a lot in taxes. Probably a mix of folks, many who have just relocated to another country. Might even be liberal protestors who object to the right wing craziness in America now. Doesn't prove a thing or necessarily have any effect on tax revenue.
 
2013-08-10 03:10:52 PM

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


LoL.

You do realise this is dualcitizens right?

If you think there's some Team America thing going on, then you're a moron. These are people with citizenship in an European country.
 
2013-08-10 03:11:26 PM

vpb: Robo Beat: One caveat: other countries don't necessarily calculate taxes in the same way.  In the US, everything is calculated as a percentage of gross income - X% in federal income taxes, Y% for state income taxes, Z% for local income taxes.  But here in France, for example, my income taxes are calculated as a percentage of the net that remains after they take out the withholdings for social security, medical, retirement, etc.  And that's a lot of money - up to a third of my pre-tax gross income, in fact.  So much so that if I were merely to claim the credit for the income tax I pay to the French government against my US tax liability (instead of the foreign earned income exclusion), I'd fall about $6,000 short on my US tax liabilities.

Now, the income tax scale here ramps up pretty quickly, so that you hit the top bracket with the 41% marginal rate at around 72,000€/year.  So if you're above the Earned Income Tax Credit, I believe you have a fair bit of headroom until you cross the line and start owing US taxes on top of French ones.  Needless to say, I'm not there yet.

The Foreign Earned Income Exemption is $97,600 for 2013.  And it sounds like the taxes in France are lower than I thought.


But as someone described above, if you use the FTC then you may be able to include foreign social security paid.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:11:35 PM
FloydA:
I'm aware of the mechanisms.  I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income.  I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

Because investors are the "job creators"   Apparently the economy is driven entirely by investment and people who aren't investors are moochers.
 
2013-08-10 03:12:37 PM
Pumpernickel bread:
Couple of things, first, even with fibbing a little on their tax returns, the wealthy pay far more in taxes than the average person and on average, they receive far fewer government services.

Your first claim, that the wealthy pay far more, is based on a misunderstanding of ratios.  If I'm paying 30% of my income in taxes and Paris Hilton is paying 14% of her income, it is irrelevant that her total contribution is larger than mine; she is being given a benefit that I am not.

Your second claim, that the wealthy receive fewer government services, is patently false.  Roads, bridges, railways, airports, and all of our transportation infrastructure exist largely to allow easy transport of goods from producers to markets.  The wealthy benefit disproportionately from transportation infrastructure.  Police forces and the justice system exist, in large part, to protect property and enforce contracts.  Those who own the most property benefit the most from the existence of our legal and law enforcement system.  FEMA and the National Guard exist, in large part, to protect lives and restore real property in the event of natural disasters.  People who own property benefit from those services, and the more property they own, the more they benefit.

It is popular, among a segment of the population, to assume that "government services" only refers to food stamps and welfare checks, but that is not accurate.


The bottom line is for the big government system to work, we need the wealthy to stick around because they are the ones paying for it all.

Except that, in the US, the middle class are the ones paying for it all.


I understand class envy and resentment for those you perceive as having "more" than you

No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.
 
2013-08-10 03:12:54 PM

FloydA: leadmetal: FloydA: leadmetal:
FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.

Nope.  Try again.

Well there is avoiding the police state, the fact they are living elsewhere already and don't need the IRS farking with them (which is the long version of the above), and the economic decline of the USA, which again is related. But this fark, so keeping things simple is key.


OK, so you started from the assumption that the US is a police state and the government is stealing people's money and providing nothing in return.  These are demonstrably and obviously false claims, so your premises are crap, and any conclusion you draw from them will be false.

Now you've moved on to claiming that the USA is in economic decline (without, I might add, noting that cause of our current economic problems is the supply side "Reaganomics" nonsense), failing to note that we're actually doing far better than nearly everyone else.

You are still embarrassingly unaware that nobody wants to stop all the "bootstrappy" types from leaving (except perhaps for the nations that you plan on moving to).  You just go on dreaming the apocalyptic dream that society will collapse when you all move to Galt's Gulch.

Go.  Please go.  We won't miss you.  The people who refuse to pay taxes in the US should not have the benefits of US citizenship.   If you're honestly under the impression that the benefits aren't worth the costs, I wholeheartedly encourage you to leave and renounce your citizenship.  Go.  Good riddance.  Need help packing?


You're babbling.

As I have demonstrated to your ideological partner, the services argument is complete bullshiat. What you and your kind want is the resources of other people. Plain and simple. That's why you want this big bloated government. If it was about paying for what one uses, then government services are not needed, only market services. People would pay for what they use. Government services allow forcing other people to pay for them or the bulk of their cost.

Also several people in this thread are voicing on keeping people from leaving via one method or another. In fact many people seem rather upset they are leaving.

The 0.1% that own the USA aren't renouncing citizenship. Their wealth is fully protected from the likes of you. The people who are running are those who cannot politically protect themselves from your kind or the predatory 0.1%. The people who are being stolen from on both ends but can afford to do something about it. Love it or leave it, they are leaving. Golden goose fly away.

It also seems you want to label me with a bunch of right-statism, sorry, I oppose that too. I oppose statism, be it left or right. The right statists are just as vicious regarding keeping people in this company town to exploit them as the left statists.

As to the police state, that should be obvious now. It's still selective and mostly preys upon poor people (but expanding to small business owners and the like), but it should be obvious none the less.  The real main street economic decline should also be obvious. Go see the next whine about how walmart shelve stockers don't make as much money as fork lift drivers, machinists, and other skilled people.

As to me, I cannot afford the cost to leave given my understanding of costs well into the six figures. I am one generation too far removed to get a passport in another country so I would have to buy one and pay for the whole process. Thus my plan is that when things start to get really bad is to blow everything on expensive cars and expensive women. I end up in the same shanty regardless. In fact I am getting really tired of working well into May just to pay for unthankful indignant people like yourself and/or those you champion. Maybe I'll just stop working. Not leave, just not work any more. You can't collect income taxes unless there's an income. Maybe even find a way on to the dole. A few baby mamas too... How about that?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:13:11 PM

brilett: I guess we'll just annex the Cayman's.

Bastards blew up our steamship


And they shot down helen Keller when she tried to escape from the Germans by flying around the world.
 
2013-08-10 03:13:52 PM

TopoGigo: If you don't live here, don't work here, and don't invest here, you shouldn't be taxed here.


Well if you want the option of coming back one day you don't want the place to fall apart do you?
 
2013-08-10 03:14:04 PM

leadmetal: Projection ...

 
2013-08-10 03:15:43 PM

dywed88: ManifestDestiny: As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.

As a summary:


For employment income you can claim a section 911 exclusion, known as the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion or FEIE, on form 2555. This allows you to exclude up to $97,600 USD of foreign employment or business income from US taxes. This is somewhat simpler to file than an FTC (explained later), so if doing it yourself and you income is all from employment it is probably the better option. This also applies if your local tax rate is lower than in the US.

If you have more income than the limit and/or income that isn't covered you ill need to claim a Foreign Tax Credit (FTC) using form 1116. This can be somewhat more complicated, but is the preferred option if you are in a jurisdiction with higher tax rates than the US. With an FTC, you report to the IRS your Norwegian taxes (and this likely includes some social security taxes, but that is on a case-by-case basis and I can't comment on Norway) and you can claim a credit against US taxes on your foreign income. If your Norwegian taxes are greater than the US ones you will get credit against all US taxes you would otherwise owe. If you have income from US sources, you will still have to pay some to the IRS, but you can get the same credit from Norway for US taxes paid.

The first year especially get a professional to prepare it so that you have a reference if you decide to do it on your own in the future. It will likely cost a couple grand, but I assume you will net more than that from a job. If you were talking to IRS people at the embassy they were probably incompetent, lazy, or both. Talk to an accountant instead (one with US cross border specialists, preferably from a firm with a presence in both the US and Norway). It will cost a bit but they generally know more far than the front line IRS people (and have an incentive to help you minimize taxes as they want your references and business).


Again, thank you so very much!  I will restart my inquiries as far as possible employment goes. At the very least, I won't be afraid of taking odd jobs and other small things.
 
ows
2013-08-10 03:16:06 PM

badhatharry: Bunch of quitters. I'm not leaving until I have to sneak out.


that's when the "real fence" will go up.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:19:12 PM

leadmetal: You're babbling.


As to me, I cannot afford the cost to leave given my understanding of costs well into the six figures

So even though the first two million is exempt it would cost you "well into the six figures"?  Or is your understanding of tax law as bad as your understanding of economics and government?
 
2013-08-10 03:20:06 PM

GBB: As a US citizen, you enjoy all sorts of perks such as government assistance in the event that you end up being kidnapped or some such.


Not particularly. Unless someone can get a senator or something to champion your cause you're pretty much on your own. Of course in many cases the reason an american would be kidnapped in the first place has a lot to do with the US federal government's war on drugs, war on terror, or aggressive foreign policy in general.

Thus I would contend as far as getting kidnapped or some such in a foreign country goes, US citizenship is more of a risk than a benefit. As I understand it, being able to pass one's self off as a Canadian often helps in such situations.
 
2013-08-10 03:22:14 PM

leadmetal: You're babbling.

As I have demonstrated to your ideological partner, the services argument is complete bullshiat. What you and your kind want is the resources of other people. Plain and simple. That's why you want this big bloated government. If it was about paying for what one uses, then government services are not needed, only market services. People would pay for what they use. Government services allow forcing other people to pay for them or the bulk of their cost.


Oh, you're a Randian.  Why didn't you just say so? It would have saved us both some time.  Rand's simplistic philosophy works fine in books where the hack author gets to deus ex machia solutions to any problems that arise, but in the real world, it works no better than any other ideology.   In the real world, you have to adjust your ideals to fit the people - you can't change the people to suit your ideals.  Rand's ideology is no better than Marx's ideology, in that both of them are fantasy worlds that cannot ever possibly exist.  You might just as well base your plan for society on the Harry Potter novels.
 
2013-08-10 03:22:48 PM

FloydA: iheartscotch: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

The same reason Al Gore gets into his private plane


DRINK


Mr. Floyd A.,

I propose that we found a new nation. It has become obvious to me that the political powers which be cannot allow for meaningful reform. As such we must forge new ground.

Since there is, as it were, no ground to found, this nation must be a technological superiority. Thus shall we craft a nation of floating cities upon the ocean. As the time advances and as our technology advances, we can also build structures beneath the waves and in the Lagrangian points and beyond in the inky black forever.

I respectfully submit that this is a necessary act because there's fark-all chance we can find a proper compromise in-house.

/VR

Casual Disregard
 
2013-08-10 03:23:25 PM

Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.


Why cant it be both.jpg
 
2013-08-10 03:25:10 PM
yubanet.com
 
2013-08-10 03:25:55 PM
Tax cheats give up citizenship rather than pay more taxes.

Just goes to show that once you reach a certain income level, you stop being American.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:26:45 PM

leadmetal: Not particularly. Unless someone can get a senator or something to champion your cause you're pretty much on your own. Of course in many cases the reason an american would be kidnapped in the first place has a lot to do with the US federal government's war on drugs, war on terror, or aggressive foreign policy in general.

Thus I would contend as far as getting kidnapped or some such in a foreign country goes, US citizenship is more of a risk than a benefit. As I understand it, being able to pass one's self off as a Canadian often helps in such situations.


So go.

I suspect that it wouldn't cost you a dime to leave, but even if you do have more than 2 million in assets then paying 40% on the rest should still leave you with plenty, and you are only having to pay taxes on money you made in the US anyway.
 
2013-08-10 03:26:51 PM

stevesporn2000: To the Norwegian bride - no, there is a tax treaty between the US and Norway. You get a tax credit and based upon Norway's tax rates you'd essentially only pay tax on investment income in the United States. There are some minor complicating factors for structuring your finances (such as whether a Roth IRA is better than a regular IRA) but it's really not that difficult. I think my accountant charged $1,000 a year when I was living overseas. Yes it's annoying, but it's a lot less than what you could make my working given that Norwegian wages are so much higher, and once they've done it once you can probably just do the forms yourself the next year. Or you can do what you're doing now, and just assume the problem is way too difficult to ever solve.


This. My wife got credit on all the taxes, et al., that she paid in Switzerland. She made a LOT of money there, and only paid taxes on a fraction of it all. Much of that is because we own a house, plane, et al.

/we do pay an accountant
//there are expenses to being a consultant
 
2013-08-10 03:27:18 PM

vpb: leadmetal: You're babbling.

As to me, I cannot afford the cost to leave given my understanding of costs well into the six figures

So even though the first two million is exempt it would cost you "well into the six figures"?  Or is your understanding of tax law as bad as your understanding of economics and government?


Before you renounce US citizenship you need a passport in another country. The cost of this process varies depending on personal circumstances and ancestry. It's not what the USA takes in taxes, but this process that is the barrier. The cheapest route of course is to think a decade or more in advance and take up residence in another country fully understanding their immigration laws before hand. However not doing that means purchasing a passport and that is a very expensive process as I understand it.
 
2013-08-10 03:27:20 PM

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


I always find this amusing when I think that here if you want help from the US gov as a US citizen you have to call a 900 number
Yes they charge by the minute
 
2013-08-10 03:28:11 PM
I'd like to pay no taxes too but since I pay about the same 14% tax that Mitt does, no one will take me seriously


leadmetal: I am getting really tired of working well into May just to pay for unthankful indignant people like yourself and/or those you champion


Because everyone who thinks differently than you is clearly an inferior, unemployed subset of human who has no one to blame but himself  for what he earns?

.
 
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