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(TaxProf)   Number of taxpayers who renounced U.S. citizenship hits record high. And that's not even counting Edward Snowden   (taxprof.typepad.com) divider line 355
    More: Interesting, U.S. Citizenship, hit records, U.S.  
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8070 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Aug 2013 at 1:40 PM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-10 02:03:12 PM
To the Norwegian bride - no, there is a tax treaty between the US and Norway. You get a tax credit and based upon Norway's tax rates you'd essentially only pay tax on investment income in the United States. There are some minor complicating factors for structuring your finances (such as whether a Roth IRA is better than a regular IRA) but it's really not that difficult. I think my accountant charged $1,000 a year when I was living overseas. Yes it's annoying, but it's a lot less than what you could make my working given that Norwegian wages are so much higher, and once they've done it once you can probably just do the forms yourself the next year. Or you can do what you're doing now, and just assume the problem is way too difficult to ever solve.
 
2013-08-10 02:03:29 PM

Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.


I like this.  Soon we will have to start border patrols to keep the wealthy from leaving.
The new Obama America.  Illegal immigrant, no problem, common in we got lots.

Retiring worker who paid in to everything.  Nope, you cant leave (you have illegals to care for)
How did that work in East Germany again?
 
2013-08-10 02:03:51 PM
Someone has to pay for Obummers vacations.
 
2013-08-10 02:03:53 PM

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.
 
2013-08-10 02:04:48 PM

propasaurus: So, GTFO.


That's not the only option. The system can and should be changed.
 
2013-08-10 02:05:02 PM

badhatharry: Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.

This is why people are leaving now.


There is a financial reniuncement fee already, but i'm not sure how much it is. Also, and this is nuts, one can renounce, burn their passport, become a citizen of another country, and the us gov claims rights to your income for ten years after.
 
2013-08-10 02:05:20 PM

jnapier: Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.

I like this.  Soon we will have to start border patrols to keep the wealthy from leaving.
The new Obama America.  Illegal immigrant, no problem, common in we got lots.

Retiring worker who paid in to everything.  Nope, you cant leave (you have illegals to care for)
How did that work in East Germany again?


The wealthy can leave anytime they want. It is when the money leaves the United States it should be taxed.
 
2013-08-10 02:06:42 PM

hardinparamedic: BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]

You masturbate over a blatant work of fiction which ignores the basics of human nature and whose entire universe depends on a perpetual energy deus ex machina that violates every known law of physics?


"Blatant work of fiction"? What kind of charge is that? Do you think that this work of fiction should have been less blatant about being fiction
 
2013-08-10 02:07:18 PM

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


1/10
 
2013-08-10 02:07:27 PM
Just because you renounce your citizenship does NOT mean you cant live in America.
Where do you get the idea they have to live in ButtFyckistan?

By the way.  California raised the state tax on people making more than $1M a few years ago.
They thought this would raise revenue.
What happened is that those making more than $1M left the state.

The net result was LESS taxes from rich people.
Questions? See Detroit.
 
2013-08-10 02:07:38 PM

iheartscotch: / one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard


Interesting. I googled this and it appears to be quite the complicated situation.
 
2013-08-10 02:08:00 PM

badhatharry: MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?

Millionaire? Good luck opening a business.


The one I work at just moved to a facility twice as large as the one we were in.
 
2013-08-10 02:08:03 PM

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


Lol wut?
 
2013-08-10 02:08:16 PM

ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.


That's not the only point. If you live and work overseas you often have to pay taxes in that country AND you get to pay taxes in the U.S..
 
2013-08-10 02:08:27 PM

jnapier: Nyaaa I'll take the Caymans where there are no taxes


 go live there. everything you buy that isn't made there is +25%.  almost +30% for automobiles.
there's 3 hospitals and one MRI machine for all the islands.
and they mandate health insurance for all residents.
 
2013-08-10 02:08:34 PM

stevesporn2000: To the Norwegian bride - no, there is a tax treaty between the US and Norway. You get a tax credit and based upon Norway's tax rates you'd essentially only pay tax on investment income in the United States. There are some minor complicating factors for structuring your finances (such as whether a Roth IRA is better than a regular IRA) but it's really not that difficult. I think my accountant charged $1,000 a year when I was living overseas. Yes it's annoying, but it's a lot less than what you could make my working given that Norwegian wages are so much higher, and once they've done it once you can probably just do the forms yourself the next year. Or you can do what you're doing now, and just assume the problem is way too difficult to ever solve.


That must be a very new development because that directly conflicts with the information I got the last time I pulled my hair out trying to figure out my tax situation. I thank you very sincerely for the advice, tho I'm not sure the wages I could pull would cover my costs.  I'll look into this and run the numbers again!
 
2013-08-10 02:09:02 PM

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: I remember reading an article that the USA is the only major nation to tax all offshore income regardless of permanent residence.  I had to pay US taxes even though I lived abroad for nearly 300 days 4 years ago.  Sucked.


The way I understood abroad taxes was if the tax from something which was taxed by the abroad country was less than the US tax, the US required the difference.  No?

we can afford to lose the small fish by the droves, but if we lose too many big fish, we're screwed ...

/not really
//we want the small fish who haven't gotten their taxes zeroed out yet
 
2013-08-10 02:09:14 PM

Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.


Frankly, it's almost impossible to start a business in the state of New York without being a millionaire already. The amount of licences, permits and whatever else is is daunting.

Contrast that with a red state. All you need to do is say to yourself, "self, I'd like to start a business". You could go incorperate a business on your lunch hour if you felt like it
 
2013-08-10 02:09:26 PM
Thieves typically scuttle the ship as they depart once everything of value is secured.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:09:53 PM

pedrop357: People who've lived overseas for years are forced to deal with the IRS and US tax system in a manner that citizens of other countries do not.  How many other countries tax the income of expatriates and nonresidents the way the US does?


All of the ones that keep carrier battle groups and Marines all over the world to come get your ass when you get into trouble.  And since we are the world police why shouldn't they pay taxes no matter where in the world they are?

Also, American exceptionalisim.
 
2013-08-10 02:10:20 PM

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Did they find a nice country where the taxes are lower on rich people?

Name it.
 
2013-08-10 02:10:26 PM

ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.


The difference is that in other countries, you pay high taxes... but you  actually see/receive tangible benefits.

I'm a dual US/Canadian citizen (who's never lived in Canada, my mother became a US citizen after I was born). Canadian tax rates are, on the whole, about the same as what my US tax rates would be. Yet, every time I go to Canada, it's way cleaner, the people are far better educated, the population is healthier, crime is exceedingly low, the roads are better maintained, the cops aren't beating the crap out of people because they can, there is no massive citizen spying programs and the trashiest parts of Vancouver are about on par with the lower-middle class parts of where I live (Portland, OR).

That's because Canada spends their tax dollars on things like education and infrastructure and health care.

In the US, we spend our  federal tax dollars on really productive things like a massive military who performs absurdly expensive expeditionary wars with little cause, massive federal bureaucracy, a postal service incapable of pulling it's own weight, a massive Department of Homeland Security, dozens of federal law enforcement agencies, foreign aid payouts to countries who don't like us, a wildly inefficient welfare state that seems geared to enslave people in government handouts instead of helping them become self sufficient, a drug enforcement policy that costs $50B a year with no real benefits (and billions more incarcerating the people it insnares). In short, the vast majority of your federal tax dollars buys you complete shiat.

When people get all uppity about people renouncing their US citizenship to avoid paying federal taxes, they like to cite government services that the sucessful consumed like roads, police and fire. Those are all  state and local funded systems.

Federal taxes are nothing but a feeding trough for special interests and our utterly broken government to keep propping up their power. Fark them.
 
2013-08-10 02:10:27 PM

propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.


This.
 
2013-08-10 02:11:04 PM

Deep Contact: Someone has to pay for Obummers vacations.


thenevadaview.com
 
2013-08-10 02:11:27 PM

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Yeah. Why do you suck so badly?
 
2013-08-10 02:11:53 PM

flucto: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.


I'll be sure to tell my stepmother. I'm sure she would be thrilled to hear that her pinko liberal space muffin step-daughter has seen the light.
 
2013-08-10 02:12:05 PM

Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.


That wouldn't work on any money that was already overseas.
 
2013-08-10 02:12:51 PM

Frank N Stein: "Blatant work of fiction"? What kind of charge is that? Do you think that this work of fiction should have been less blatant about being fiction


Well, Republicans seem to think it's the missing book to complete the New Testament.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:12:56 PM

ManifestDestiny: There are a series of new reporting laws that are taking affect one by one. Basically, if you're making burger-flipper wages or above in your foreign country of residence, that will now give the US the right to examine ALL of the banking records you have in that country in minute detail. Every transaction.


And we can't have them finding out about the money stashed in Switzerland can we?
 
2013-08-10 02:13:27 PM

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: I remember reading an article that the USA is the only major nation to tax all offshore income regardless of permanent residence.  I had to pay US taxes even though I lived abroad for nearly 300 days 4 years ago.  Sucked.


See it as an extension of your membership of an exclusive club. Or something.
 
2013-08-10 02:14:03 PM

Hobodeluxe: jnapier: Nyaaa I'll take the Caymans where there are no taxes

 go live there. everything you buy that isn't made there is +25%.  almost +30% for automobiles.
there's 3 hospitals and one MRI machine for all the islands.
and they mandate health insurance for all residents.


Lemme do my math
Someone makes $1M.   The gov takes 39% plus 7.5% SS plus 4.5% ObamaCare plus 5% state
$1M less 56% tax is $460K
Live in Caymens where everything imported is 25% higher. (except some things are a LOT lower, but we will take your ludicrous statement as fact) and we get $750K spending power with no estate tax when I die.

That is of course if I live there 100%.  I could by a house, where they have no residency requirements and go live in, say Anywhere in America I want to.
 
2013-08-10 02:14:08 PM

iheartscotch: Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.

Frankly, it's almost impossible to start a business in the state of New York without being a millionaire already. The amount of licences, permits and whatever else is is daunting.

Contrast that with a red state. All you need to do is say to yourself, "self, I'd like to start a business". You could go incorperate a business on your lunch hour if you felt like it


that's funny I just had a friend in NY who incorporated himself and his IT business (him and his wife working from home for the most part, she is on there for health insurance savings only ) and it was amazing how easy it was and how much money he is saving.
 
2013-08-10 02:14:11 PM

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


So you mean the parts of the world where US federal government foreign policy has most farked things up.

FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it. Basically we are talking about the politically unconnected who pay the taxes and have enough money to make fleeing economically feasible. For years people say 'love it or leave it' to those complaining about being so heavily taxed, yet now when people are choosing 'leave it' people like yourself get your panties in bunch over it.

The fact of matter is, those who can successfully place their wealth overseas because of their political and social connections have no need to renounce citizenship. They simply protect their wealth. For those without those connections they have to get citizenship in another country and simply leave. Furthermore, the USA is one of a few nations that taxes people who live outside of its borders. Thus if someone has been living in another country for a decade renouncing US citizenship makes good sense and will keep the IRS from farking with them.

I know two people who have gone to live in other countries permanently. Neither renounced as far as I know, neither has any sort of wealth beyond a typical middle class level if that. Both have had the IRS fark with them.

Then there is the problem where foreign banks simply refuse business with US citizens because of US banking laws. That could make it very difficult to live in a foreign country when you can't use a local bank.

All said and done, your government is encouraging people to leave on multiple levels, of which I've only touched on a few.

Carth: Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.


Right. Keep the slaves on the plantation. Keep the workers in the company town. That's why people who can afford it are leaving now. The parasites in the USA are becoming far too voracious. Me? I cannot afford the cost of renouncing citizenship, so I'll be buying expensive cars and women in the end days. I'll blow every dime before folks like you can get it. I'll end up in the same shanty town either way, I might as well enjoy the way down.
 
2013-08-10 02:14:14 PM
CPA I know who specializes in helping us citizens abroad. Works with lots of expats.

ustaxhelp.com

/shameless plug
/nice guy
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:15:01 PM

pedrop357: Those same laws also apply to people who've lived in other countries for years and haven't even set foot in the US in years.  Foreign banks are choosing to simply not allow US residents to open accounts rather than deal with the US government or breach the privacy of their members.

There is more than one side to an issue.  You would do well to learn that.


That's not much of a side.  If that is enough of a reason for you to renounce your citizenship then your ties to the US aren't that strong anyway.
 
2013-08-10 02:15:22 PM

vpb: ManifestDestiny: There are a series of new reporting laws that are taking affect one by one. Basically, if you're making burger-flipper wages or above in your foreign country of residence, that will now give the US the right to examine ALL of the banking records you have in that country in minute detail. Every transaction.

And we can't have them finding out about the money stashed in Switzerland can we?


More like I can't have them finding out how much I spend on used bacon grease and midget porn.
 
2013-08-10 02:15:28 PM

Rwa2play: propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.

This.


So, if they are residing overseas and have taken out citizenship there then what are they taking from the United States?
 
2013-08-10 02:15:56 PM

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


If you are paying tax in the US on Norwegian income you are probably doing something wrong, and if Norwegian taxes are that low you don't have much to complain about. FEIE and FTCs should more than cover your US taxes in pretty much any developed nation barring some weird circumstances. If you have trusts or a corporation or certain types of investments, than you can get some expensive filings but if you just need a 1040, two 1116s and an FBAR it shouldn't be that bad. It is the information returns that are the real problem.

iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.


Oh, you are so funny. The countries that the vast majority of rich people would go to live would have far higher taxes than the US. Then they have to pay expatriation tax. And if they have any family in the US they give money to get hammered by gift and estate taxes (which are punitively high for those subject to the expatriation regime).

Enemabag Jones: Just curious, how many are (true) millionaires or billionaires and how many are (not rich) expatriates who have settled abroad?


My guess is that the vast majority renouncing citizenship for tax purposes are people that have lived permanently abroad for an extended period of time (if not their whole lives) without a particularly large amount of assets and receive no benefit from American citizenship. Many either didn't realize their filing requirements or just didn't bother and now that US crackdowns on non-compliance are making the news they are just getting rid of the citizenship as it is nothing more than a liability to them.
 
2013-08-10 02:16:11 PM

ManifestDestiny: flucto: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.

I'll be sure to tell my stepmother. I'm sure she would be thrilled to hear that her pinko liberal space muffin step-daughter has seen the light.


Bar you from entering the US? Even on a tourist visa?
 
2013-08-10 02:16:27 PM

clancifer: Freeloaders.


Well not any more, so you should rejoice.
 
2013-08-10 02:16:38 PM
Ugh, I have to figure out tax stuff from living abroad the last 2 years. Should be fine since I was making less than 95k but still overly complicated and a pain in the ass with some weird, arbitrary seeming reporting requirements like if I ever had a foreign bank account with 10k+ in it.
 
2013-08-10 02:16:42 PM

Prophet of Loss: Thieves typically scuttle the ship as they depart once everything of value is secured.


Rats onboard tend to poop on and gnaw down everything of value that's been brought aboard a vessel by the capain and good crew.
 
2013-08-10 02:17:07 PM

leadmetal: Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.


that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites
 
2013-08-10 02:17:10 PM

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


"I have a question: when exactly did you become a nutbar?"
 
2013-08-10 02:17:30 PM
On some level we are owed a return by society because we exist in society. It's get and give. Infrastructure, security, finance, peace of mind. These are public goods. Who pays for the roads you travel? Who pays for the cops? Who pays for the banking industry? Who pays for our general concept of civilization? The answer is that I pay my share and you pay yours.
 
2013-08-10 02:17:48 PM

iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.


Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?
 
2013-08-10 02:18:19 PM

brantgoose: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Did they find a nice country where the taxes are lower on rich people?

Name it.


Damn it, I thought I had it, but then I realized Antarctica isn't a country.
Don't you find it funny that Aristocles hasn't responded to anyone who's asked him questions?
I've seen him in a few other threads, and everyone seems to be agreed that hes just a lackluster troll.
 
2013-08-10 02:18:34 PM

lantawa: Prophet of Loss: Thieves typically scuttle the ship as they depart once everything of value is secured.

Rats onboard tend to poop on and gnaw down everything of value that's been brought aboard a vessel by the capain and good crew.


They are also the first to jump ship when it sinks.
 
2013-08-10 02:18:48 PM

jnapier: Lemme do my math


Your math sucks. You should stop talking.
 
2013-08-10 02:19:00 PM

iheartscotch: MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?

At this point; I'm willing to consider the possibility of creating new millionaires. You'd have to do it in the more "bootstrappy" states; because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

/ one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard




I look forward to hiring you as a cabbie in Buford Wyoming then.
 
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