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(TaxProf)   Number of taxpayers who renounced U.S. citizenship hits record high. And that's not even counting Edward Snowden   (taxprof.typepad.com) divider line 355
    More: Interesting, U.S. Citizenship, hit records, U.S.  
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8078 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Aug 2013 at 1:40 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



355 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-08-10 12:27:51 PM  
momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-08-10 01:04:26 PM  

BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]


You can probably hear me rolling my eyes from here.
 
2013-08-10 01:20:36 PM  
Freeloaders.
 
2013-08-10 01:22:28 PM  
Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.
 
2013-08-10 01:23:43 PM  
The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.
 
2013-08-10 01:30:41 PM  
So, just a bunch of takers.
 
2013-08-10 01:42:10 PM  
This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?
 
2013-08-10 01:43:48 PM  

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


THIS times infinity!
 
2013-08-10 01:45:09 PM  

propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.


If you mean the government, then I agree.

People who've lived overseas for years are forced to deal with the IRS and US tax system in a manner that citizens of other countries do not.  How many other countries tax the income of expatriates and nonresidents the way the US does?
 
2013-08-10 01:45:16 PM  
So, corporation executives are actually moving to the Cayman Islands now?
 
2013-08-10 01:45:19 PM  
NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.
 
2013-08-10 01:45:33 PM  
Just curious, how many are (true) millionaires or billionaires and how many are (not rich) expatriates who have settled abroad?
 
2013-08-10 01:45:59 PM  
Bunch of quitters. I'm not leaving until I have to sneak out.
 
2013-08-10 01:46:19 PM  
www.legendsofamerica.com
 
2013-08-10 01:46:41 PM  
www.hogdb.com
 
2013-08-10 01:47:04 PM  

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


Those same laws also apply to people who've lived in other countries for years and haven't even set foot in the US in years.  Foreign banks are choosing to simply not allow US residents to open accounts rather than deal with the US government or breach the privacy of their members.

There is more than one side to an issue.  You would do well to learn that.
 
2013-08-10 01:47:05 PM  
This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.
 
2013-08-10 01:47:13 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


fark 'em. So no, no questions.
 
2013-08-10 01:47:20 PM  
If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.
 
2013-08-10 01:47:44 PM  
I remember reading an article that the USA is the only major nation to tax all offshore income regardless of permanent residence.  I had to pay US taxes even though I lived abroad for nearly 300 days 4 years ago.  Sucked.
 
2013-08-10 01:48:03 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Yeah, which grade school did you drop out of?
 
2013-08-10 01:48:08 PM  

iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.


So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?
 
2013-08-10 01:49:01 PM  

BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]


You masturbate over a blatant work of fiction which ignores the basics of human nature and whose entire universe depends on a perpetual energy deus ex machina that violates every known law of physics?
 
2013-08-10 01:50:05 PM  

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


Benghazi  is still ok, right?
 
2013-08-10 01:50:36 PM  

MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?


Millionaire? Good luck opening a business.
 
2013-08-10 01:50:40 PM  

ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.


At least those countries don't tax you even though haven't been in their borders for a year or more.
 
2013-08-10 01:51:28 PM  
The US does not charge very much in personal income taxes.  Bunch of whiny babies.
 
2013-08-10 01:51:32 PM  

panfried: violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.

Benghazi  is still ok, right?


www.aguywalksinto365bars.com
 
2013-08-10 01:53:06 PM  
DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.

Not sure if ser-

Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country,

Oh, that clears that up, then. Congratulations on the Poe.
 
2013-08-10 01:53:06 PM  

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


you should leave too. want help buying a ticket?
 
2013-08-10 01:53:53 PM  
Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.
 
2013-08-10 01:54:10 PM  

hardinparamedic: BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]

You masturbate over a blatant work of fiction which ignores the basics of human nature and whose entire universe depends on a perpetual energy deus ex machina that violates every known law of physics?


Hell, when you put it like that you're basically describing every porno I've ever seen.
 
2013-08-10 01:54:27 PM  
Dunno if we'll renounce citizenship yet, but me and the SO are heading out soon. We're not rich.
 
2013-08-10 01:54:30 PM  

MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?


there's always someone willing to take their place and pay the taxes on the money they make.
 
2013-08-10 01:54:31 PM  

MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?


At this point; I'm willing to consider the possibility of creating new millionaires. You'd have to do it in the more "bootstrappy" states; because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

/ one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard
 
2013-08-10 01:54:57 PM  

hardinparamedic: panfried: violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.

Benghazi  is still ok, right?

[www.aguywalksinto365bars.com image 504x486]


A properly choked chicken neither speaks nor smokes!
 
2013-08-10 01:56:21 PM  

iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.


bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.
 
2013-08-10 01:56:43 PM  
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-08-10 01:57:47 PM  
All the other derp aside, the article says nothing about whether this is a proportional increase and offers no evidence that taxes, per se, even have anything to do with it. A lot of ex-pats have unrelated reasons for giving up their US citizenship.

But if there simply are more US citizens living abroad in a given year, and the same proportion of them as usual give up their citizenships, then you'd see this kind of spike. There wouldn't even have to be any 'cause' behind the statistical shift. And we're not talking huge numbers, here.

So basically, the article is speculation (and not much of it) based on a statistical spike that may not contain any additional information at all. There's no reason to believe that taxes have anything to do with the increase.

/ probably they do have a little to do with it
// I'm in the So GO, Then, And Who Cares camp
 
2013-08-10 01:57:50 PM  

iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.


Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.
 
2013-08-10 01:59:06 PM  

ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.


Nyaaa I'll take the Caymans where there are no taxes and a flight to the US is $300.

The point being, that the people WITH money can avoid higher taxes, it squeezes the middleclass, not the rich.
 
2013-08-10 01:59:18 PM  
The funny thing is that, according to law, you can only renounce your citizenship outside the US, at a foreign embassy or consulate.
 
2013-08-10 01:59:45 PM  
When I pay taxes, I think of it more like I'm giving foreign aid. So, foreign aid's alright.  Taxes suck.  Therefore, I don't pay taxes, I donate to foreign aid.  Much better feel to it.....
 
2013-08-10 01:59:52 PM  

DubyaHater: abortions at an all time high,


I'm sure that is the reason someone would renounce their citizenship.
 
2013-08-10 02:00:16 PM  

pedrop357: propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.

If you mean the government, then I agree.

People who've lived overseas for years are forced to deal with the IRS and US tax system in a manner that citizens of other countries do not.  How many other countries tax the income of expatriates and nonresidents the way the US does?


So, GTFO.
 
2013-08-10 02:01:07 PM  

Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.


This is why people are leaving now.
 
2013-08-10 02:02:17 PM  

RandomAxe: All the other derp aside, the article says nothing about whether this is a proportional increase and offers no evidence that taxes, per se, even have anything to do with it. A lot of ex-pats have unrelated reasons for giving up their US citizenship.

But if there simply are more US citizens living abroad in a given year, and the same proportion of them as usual give up their citizenships, then you'd see this kind of spike. There wouldn't even have to be any 'cause' behind the statistical shift. And we're not talking huge numbers, here.

So basically, the article is speculation (and not much of it) based on a statistical spike that may not contain any additional information at all. There's no reason to believe that taxes have anything to do with the increase.


There are a series of new reporting laws that are taking affect one by one. Basically, if you're making burger-flipper wages or above in your foreign country of residence, that will now give the US the right to examine ALL of the banking records you have in that country in minute detail. Every transaction.
 
2013-08-10 02:02:31 PM  

pedrop357: ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.

At least those countries don't tax you even though haven't been in their borders for a year or more.


Yeah, this.  I'll be paying taxes in both Canada and the US this year, and every year, because I make more than 80K.  I've always said I'd never renounce my citizenship, but I gotta say it's tempting now.
 
2013-08-10 02:02:53 PM  
Some of the people who are renouncing their citizenship are not high wealth individuals.  They are doing it for tax reasons but mostly because their ignorance of American tax law has resulted in them losing their savings through back taxes and large penalties.  I have sympathy for them unlike the 1-percenters who are just trying to maximize return.
 
2013-08-10 02:03:00 PM  
iheartscotch: You'd have to do it in the more "bootstrappy" states; because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

/ one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard


LOL. It's not regulations and greedy bureaucrats who have driven up the medallion cost in NYC. It's greedy millionaire cab medallion owners. A medallion is very expensive but typically returns about 5-7% in gains per year on the original investment while also gaining value. Rich people compete over things like that and have no desire to let new players into that game.

You can google this example pretty easily. And, in fact, it's pretty typical. Giant corporations have the money for new start-up locations and don't want small businesses horning in, so they lobby to have regulations established that crush smaller competitors. Government regulations are the tool, not the enemy.
 
2013-08-10 02:03:12 PM  
To the Norwegian bride - no, there is a tax treaty between the US and Norway. You get a tax credit and based upon Norway's tax rates you'd essentially only pay tax on investment income in the United States. There are some minor complicating factors for structuring your finances (such as whether a Roth IRA is better than a regular IRA) but it's really not that difficult. I think my accountant charged $1,000 a year when I was living overseas. Yes it's annoying, but it's a lot less than what you could make my working given that Norwegian wages are so much higher, and once they've done it once you can probably just do the forms yourself the next year. Or you can do what you're doing now, and just assume the problem is way too difficult to ever solve.
 
2013-08-10 02:03:29 PM  

Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.


I like this.  Soon we will have to start border patrols to keep the wealthy from leaving.
The new Obama America.  Illegal immigrant, no problem, common in we got lots.

Retiring worker who paid in to everything.  Nope, you cant leave (you have illegals to care for)
How did that work in East Germany again?
 
2013-08-10 02:03:51 PM  
Someone has to pay for Obummers vacations.
 
2013-08-10 02:03:53 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.
 
2013-08-10 02:04:48 PM  

propasaurus: So, GTFO.


That's not the only option. The system can and should be changed.
 
2013-08-10 02:05:02 PM  

badhatharry: Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.

This is why people are leaving now.


There is a financial reniuncement fee already, but i'm not sure how much it is. Also, and this is nuts, one can renounce, burn their passport, become a citizen of another country, and the us gov claims rights to your income for ten years after.
 
2013-08-10 02:05:20 PM  

jnapier: Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.

I like this.  Soon we will have to start border patrols to keep the wealthy from leaving.
The new Obama America.  Illegal immigrant, no problem, common in we got lots.

Retiring worker who paid in to everything.  Nope, you cant leave (you have illegals to care for)
How did that work in East Germany again?


The wealthy can leave anytime they want. It is when the money leaves the United States it should be taxed.
 
2013-08-10 02:06:42 PM  

hardinparamedic: BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]

You masturbate over a blatant work of fiction which ignores the basics of human nature and whose entire universe depends on a perpetual energy deus ex machina that violates every known law of physics?


"Blatant work of fiction"? What kind of charge is that? Do you think that this work of fiction should have been less blatant about being fiction
 
2013-08-10 02:07:18 PM  

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


1/10
 
2013-08-10 02:07:27 PM  
Just because you renounce your citizenship does NOT mean you cant live in America.
Where do you get the idea they have to live in ButtFyckistan?

By the way.  California raised the state tax on people making more than $1M a few years ago.
They thought this would raise revenue.
What happened is that those making more than $1M left the state.

The net result was LESS taxes from rich people.
Questions? See Detroit.
 
2013-08-10 02:07:38 PM  

iheartscotch: / one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard


Interesting. I googled this and it appears to be quite the complicated situation.
 
2013-08-10 02:08:00 PM  

badhatharry: MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?

Millionaire? Good luck opening a business.


The one I work at just moved to a facility twice as large as the one we were in.
 
2013-08-10 02:08:03 PM  

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


Lol wut?
 
2013-08-10 02:08:16 PM  

ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.


That's not the only point. If you live and work overseas you often have to pay taxes in that country AND you get to pay taxes in the U.S..
 
2013-08-10 02:08:27 PM  

jnapier: Nyaaa I'll take the Caymans where there are no taxes


 go live there. everything you buy that isn't made there is +25%.  almost +30% for automobiles.
there's 3 hospitals and one MRI machine for all the islands.
and they mandate health insurance for all residents.
 
2013-08-10 02:08:34 PM  

stevesporn2000: To the Norwegian bride - no, there is a tax treaty between the US and Norway. You get a tax credit and based upon Norway's tax rates you'd essentially only pay tax on investment income in the United States. There are some minor complicating factors for structuring your finances (such as whether a Roth IRA is better than a regular IRA) but it's really not that difficult. I think my accountant charged $1,000 a year when I was living overseas. Yes it's annoying, but it's a lot less than what you could make my working given that Norwegian wages are so much higher, and once they've done it once you can probably just do the forms yourself the next year. Or you can do what you're doing now, and just assume the problem is way too difficult to ever solve.


That must be a very new development because that directly conflicts with the information I got the last time I pulled my hair out trying to figure out my tax situation. I thank you very sincerely for the advice, tho I'm not sure the wages I could pull would cover my costs.  I'll look into this and run the numbers again!
 
2013-08-10 02:09:02 PM  

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: I remember reading an article that the USA is the only major nation to tax all offshore income regardless of permanent residence.  I had to pay US taxes even though I lived abroad for nearly 300 days 4 years ago.  Sucked.


The way I understood abroad taxes was if the tax from something which was taxed by the abroad country was less than the US tax, the US required the difference.  No?

we can afford to lose the small fish by the droves, but if we lose too many big fish, we're screwed ...

/not really
//we want the small fish who haven't gotten their taxes zeroed out yet
 
2013-08-10 02:09:14 PM  

Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.


Frankly, it's almost impossible to start a business in the state of New York without being a millionaire already. The amount of licences, permits and whatever else is is daunting.

Contrast that with a red state. All you need to do is say to yourself, "self, I'd like to start a business". You could go incorperate a business on your lunch hour if you felt like it
 
2013-08-10 02:09:26 PM  
Thieves typically scuttle the ship as they depart once everything of value is secured.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:09:53 PM  

pedrop357: People who've lived overseas for years are forced to deal with the IRS and US tax system in a manner that citizens of other countries do not.  How many other countries tax the income of expatriates and nonresidents the way the US does?


All of the ones that keep carrier battle groups and Marines all over the world to come get your ass when you get into trouble.  And since we are the world police why shouldn't they pay taxes no matter where in the world they are?

Also, American exceptionalisim.
 
2013-08-10 02:10:20 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Did they find a nice country where the taxes are lower on rich people?

Name it.
 
2013-08-10 02:10:26 PM  

ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.


The difference is that in other countries, you pay high taxes... but you  actually see/receive tangible benefits.

I'm a dual US/Canadian citizen (who's never lived in Canada, my mother became a US citizen after I was born). Canadian tax rates are, on the whole, about the same as what my US tax rates would be. Yet, every time I go to Canada, it's way cleaner, the people are far better educated, the population is healthier, crime is exceedingly low, the roads are better maintained, the cops aren't beating the crap out of people because they can, there is no massive citizen spying programs and the trashiest parts of Vancouver are about on par with the lower-middle class parts of where I live (Portland, OR).

That's because Canada spends their tax dollars on things like education and infrastructure and health care.

In the US, we spend our  federal tax dollars on really productive things like a massive military who performs absurdly expensive expeditionary wars with little cause, massive federal bureaucracy, a postal service incapable of pulling it's own weight, a massive Department of Homeland Security, dozens of federal law enforcement agencies, foreign aid payouts to countries who don't like us, a wildly inefficient welfare state that seems geared to enslave people in government handouts instead of helping them become self sufficient, a drug enforcement policy that costs $50B a year with no real benefits (and billions more incarcerating the people it insnares). In short, the vast majority of your federal tax dollars buys you complete shiat.

When people get all uppity about people renouncing their US citizenship to avoid paying federal taxes, they like to cite government services that the sucessful consumed like roads, police and fire. Those are all  state and local funded systems.

Federal taxes are nothing but a feeding trough for special interests and our utterly broken government to keep propping up their power. Fark them.
 
2013-08-10 02:10:27 PM  

propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.


This.
 
2013-08-10 02:11:04 PM  

Deep Contact: Someone has to pay for Obummers vacations.


thenevadaview.com
 
2013-08-10 02:11:27 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Yeah. Why do you suck so badly?
 
2013-08-10 02:11:53 PM  

flucto: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.


I'll be sure to tell my stepmother. I'm sure she would be thrilled to hear that her pinko liberal space muffin step-daughter has seen the light.
 
2013-08-10 02:12:05 PM  

Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.


That wouldn't work on any money that was already overseas.
 
2013-08-10 02:12:51 PM  

Frank N Stein: "Blatant work of fiction"? What kind of charge is that? Do you think that this work of fiction should have been less blatant about being fiction


Well, Republicans seem to think it's the missing book to complete the New Testament.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:12:56 PM  

ManifestDestiny: There are a series of new reporting laws that are taking affect one by one. Basically, if you're making burger-flipper wages or above in your foreign country of residence, that will now give the US the right to examine ALL of the banking records you have in that country in minute detail. Every transaction.


And we can't have them finding out about the money stashed in Switzerland can we?
 
2013-08-10 02:13:27 PM  

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: I remember reading an article that the USA is the only major nation to tax all offshore income regardless of permanent residence.  I had to pay US taxes even though I lived abroad for nearly 300 days 4 years ago.  Sucked.


See it as an extension of your membership of an exclusive club. Or something.
 
2013-08-10 02:14:03 PM  

Hobodeluxe: jnapier: Nyaaa I'll take the Caymans where there are no taxes

 go live there. everything you buy that isn't made there is +25%.  almost +30% for automobiles.
there's 3 hospitals and one MRI machine for all the islands.
and they mandate health insurance for all residents.


Lemme do my math
Someone makes $1M.   The gov takes 39% plus 7.5% SS plus 4.5% ObamaCare plus 5% state
$1M less 56% tax is $460K
Live in Caymens where everything imported is 25% higher. (except some things are a LOT lower, but we will take your ludicrous statement as fact) and we get $750K spending power with no estate tax when I die.

That is of course if I live there 100%.  I could by a house, where they have no residency requirements and go live in, say Anywhere in America I want to.
 
2013-08-10 02:14:08 PM  

iheartscotch: Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.

Frankly, it's almost impossible to start a business in the state of New York without being a millionaire already. The amount of licences, permits and whatever else is is daunting.

Contrast that with a red state. All you need to do is say to yourself, "self, I'd like to start a business". You could go incorperate a business on your lunch hour if you felt like it


that's funny I just had a friend in NY who incorporated himself and his IT business (him and his wife working from home for the most part, she is on there for health insurance savings only ) and it was amazing how easy it was and how much money he is saving.
 
2013-08-10 02:14:11 PM  

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


So you mean the parts of the world where US federal government foreign policy has most farked things up.

FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it. Basically we are talking about the politically unconnected who pay the taxes and have enough money to make fleeing economically feasible. For years people say 'love it or leave it' to those complaining about being so heavily taxed, yet now when people are choosing 'leave it' people like yourself get your panties in bunch over it.

The fact of matter is, those who can successfully place their wealth overseas because of their political and social connections have no need to renounce citizenship. They simply protect their wealth. For those without those connections they have to get citizenship in another country and simply leave. Furthermore, the USA is one of a few nations that taxes people who live outside of its borders. Thus if someone has been living in another country for a decade renouncing US citizenship makes good sense and will keep the IRS from farking with them.

I know two people who have gone to live in other countries permanently. Neither renounced as far as I know, neither has any sort of wealth beyond a typical middle class level if that. Both have had the IRS fark with them.

Then there is the problem where foreign banks simply refuse business with US citizens because of US banking laws. That could make it very difficult to live in a foreign country when you can't use a local bank.

All said and done, your government is encouraging people to leave on multiple levels, of which I've only touched on a few.

Carth: Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.


Right. Keep the slaves on the plantation. Keep the workers in the company town. That's why people who can afford it are leaving now. The parasites in the USA are becoming far too voracious. Me? I cannot afford the cost of renouncing citizenship, so I'll be buying expensive cars and women in the end days. I'll blow every dime before folks like you can get it. I'll end up in the same shanty town either way, I might as well enjoy the way down.
 
2013-08-10 02:14:14 PM  
CPA I know who specializes in helping us citizens abroad. Works with lots of expats.

ustaxhelp.com

/shameless plug
/nice guy
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:15:01 PM  

pedrop357: Those same laws also apply to people who've lived in other countries for years and haven't even set foot in the US in years.  Foreign banks are choosing to simply not allow US residents to open accounts rather than deal with the US government or breach the privacy of their members.

There is more than one side to an issue.  You would do well to learn that.


That's not much of a side.  If that is enough of a reason for you to renounce your citizenship then your ties to the US aren't that strong anyway.
 
2013-08-10 02:15:22 PM  

vpb: ManifestDestiny: There are a series of new reporting laws that are taking affect one by one. Basically, if you're making burger-flipper wages or above in your foreign country of residence, that will now give the US the right to examine ALL of the banking records you have in that country in minute detail. Every transaction.

And we can't have them finding out about the money stashed in Switzerland can we?


More like I can't have them finding out how much I spend on used bacon grease and midget porn.
 
2013-08-10 02:15:28 PM  

Rwa2play: propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.

This.


So, if they are residing overseas and have taken out citizenship there then what are they taking from the United States?
 
2013-08-10 02:15:56 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


If you are paying tax in the US on Norwegian income you are probably doing something wrong, and if Norwegian taxes are that low you don't have much to complain about. FEIE and FTCs should more than cover your US taxes in pretty much any developed nation barring some weird circumstances. If you have trusts or a corporation or certain types of investments, than you can get some expensive filings but if you just need a 1040, two 1116s and an FBAR it shouldn't be that bad. It is the information returns that are the real problem.

iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.


Oh, you are so funny. The countries that the vast majority of rich people would go to live would have far higher taxes than the US. Then they have to pay expatriation tax. And if they have any family in the US they give money to get hammered by gift and estate taxes (which are punitively high for those subject to the expatriation regime).

Enemabag Jones: Just curious, how many are (true) millionaires or billionaires and how many are (not rich) expatriates who have settled abroad?


My guess is that the vast majority renouncing citizenship for tax purposes are people that have lived permanently abroad for an extended period of time (if not their whole lives) without a particularly large amount of assets and receive no benefit from American citizenship. Many either didn't realize their filing requirements or just didn't bother and now that US crackdowns on non-compliance are making the news they are just getting rid of the citizenship as it is nothing more than a liability to them.
 
2013-08-10 02:16:11 PM  

ManifestDestiny: flucto: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.

I'll be sure to tell my stepmother. I'm sure she would be thrilled to hear that her pinko liberal space muffin step-daughter has seen the light.


Bar you from entering the US? Even on a tourist visa?
 
2013-08-10 02:16:27 PM  

clancifer: Freeloaders.


Well not any more, so you should rejoice.
 
2013-08-10 02:16:38 PM  
Ugh, I have to figure out tax stuff from living abroad the last 2 years. Should be fine since I was making less than 95k but still overly complicated and a pain in the ass with some weird, arbitrary seeming reporting requirements like if I ever had a foreign bank account with 10k+ in it.
 
2013-08-10 02:16:42 PM  

Prophet of Loss: Thieves typically scuttle the ship as they depart once everything of value is secured.


Rats onboard tend to poop on and gnaw down everything of value that's been brought aboard a vessel by the capain and good crew.
 
2013-08-10 02:17:07 PM  

leadmetal: Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.


that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites
 
2013-08-10 02:17:10 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


"I have a question: when exactly did you become a nutbar?"
 
2013-08-10 02:17:30 PM  
On some level we are owed a return by society because we exist in society. It's get and give. Infrastructure, security, finance, peace of mind. These are public goods. Who pays for the roads you travel? Who pays for the cops? Who pays for the banking industry? Who pays for our general concept of civilization? The answer is that I pay my share and you pay yours.
 
2013-08-10 02:17:48 PM  

iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.


Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?
 
2013-08-10 02:18:19 PM  

brantgoose: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Did they find a nice country where the taxes are lower on rich people?

Name it.


Damn it, I thought I had it, but then I realized Antarctica isn't a country.
Don't you find it funny that Aristocles hasn't responded to anyone who's asked him questions?
I've seen him in a few other threads, and everyone seems to be agreed that hes just a lackluster troll.
 
2013-08-10 02:18:34 PM  

lantawa: Prophet of Loss: Thieves typically scuttle the ship as they depart once everything of value is secured.

Rats onboard tend to poop on and gnaw down everything of value that's been brought aboard a vessel by the capain and good crew.


They are also the first to jump ship when it sinks.
 
2013-08-10 02:18:48 PM  

jnapier: Lemme do my math


Your math sucks. You should stop talking.
 
2013-08-10 02:19:00 PM  

iheartscotch: MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?

At this point; I'm willing to consider the possibility of creating new millionaires. You'd have to do it in the more "bootstrappy" states; because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

/ one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard




I look forward to hiring you as a cabbie in Buford Wyoming then.
 
2013-08-10 02:19:25 PM  

Coming on a Bicycle: ManifestDestiny: flucto: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.

I'll be sure to tell my stepmother. I'm sure she would be thrilled to hear that her pinko liberal space muffin step-daughter has seen the light.

Bar you from entering the US? Even on a tourist visa?


According to whomever it was I spoke with at the embassy, yes. If you renounce and then switch citizenships, you get a 10 year timeout.
 
2013-08-10 02:20:00 PM  

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


Surprise!  Paying taxes won't get you any help, either!
 
2013-08-10 02:21:01 PM  
I'm planning on doing it in the next year or so. Not for tax reasons, though. I'm not anti-tax. I'm just going to raise my children in a country that values a challenging education and that cares enough to offer healthcare to its citizens. Oh and if my kids are gay, it would be nice if they could marry without religious idiots sticking their noses in.
 
2013-08-10 02:21:03 PM  
leadmetal:
FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.


Nope.  Try again.
 
2013-08-10 02:21:06 PM  

jnapier: Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.

I like this.  Soon we will have to start border patrols to keep the wealthy from leaving.
The new Obama America.  Illegal immigrant, no problem, common in we got lots.

Retiring worker who paid in to everything.  Nope, you cant leave (you have illegals to care for)
How did that work in East Germany again?


Establish a path to citizenship and today's illegal immigrants become tax paying citizens who can work there way up.  If someone who's made their fortune thanks to the infrastructure and support of the US economy wants to leave, they're free to do so, however they should pay an exit tax as they didn't build their fortune on their own.

When millionaires leave new ones will build themselves up to replace them.

For middle class people living abroad and renouncing due to IRS hassles - good for them too.  If you're living in Thailand/Germany/Sweden/Wherever and you plan on continuing to live there you should become a citizen of that country anyway.
 
2013-08-10 02:21:18 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.




With that $88k+ ex-pat exemption+ deduction for local taxes, you must be pulling down some serious money.
 
2013-08-10 02:21:34 PM  
I know Japan has low taxes compared to the US.

Some considerations:

People will always look on you as a curiosity.

They haven't accepted Chinese and Korean immigrants after 600 years of residence.

Your taxes are low, but the mortgage on your closet sized apartment will take three to four generations to pay off.

You may have to wear surgical masks to breathe.

You may have to pay $100 for a watermelon, or a three ounce Kobo beef "steak", just because it is disgustingly fatty.

You will have to learn Japanese.

You may be beaten up by left wing or far right wing protestors wearing body armor and helmets.

They kill whales every though they have thousands of tons of whale meat on ice that not even the Japanese want to eat.

About three quarters of the country is sacred forest, so your very costly paper comes from Brazil and the population of Canada is crowded into urban Tokyo (and that of California into Metro Tokyo).
 
2013-08-10 02:21:35 PM  

Prophet of Loss: lantawa: Prophet of Loss: Thieves typically scuttle the ship as they depart once everything of value is secured.

Rats onboard tend to poop on and gnaw down everything of value that's been brought aboard a vessel by the capain and good crew.

They are also the first to jump ship when it sinks.


Well, blimey, yon Prophet!  We're certainly coming up with some capital ideas....Nigel, bring me my croquet mallet.
 
2013-08-10 02:22:09 PM  

Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.

Frankly, it's almost impossible to start a business in the state of New York without being a millionaire already. The amount of licences, permits and whatever else is is daunting.

Contrast that with a red state. All you need to do is say to yourself, "self, I'd like to start a business". You could go incorperate a business on your lunch hour if you felt like it

that's funny I just had a friend in NY who incorporated himself and his IT business (him and his wife working from home for the most part, she is on there for health insurance savings only ) and it was amazing how easy it was and how much money he is saving.


Washington is a very blue state, and starting a business here is easy.  At least for a sole proprietorship or LLC; I would assume that forming a corporation is more complicated.
 
2013-08-10 02:22:17 PM  

pedrop357: FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Those same laws also apply to people who've lived in other countries for years and haven't even set foot in the US in years.  Foreign banks are choosing to simply not allow US residents to open accounts rather than deal with the US government or breach the privacy of their members.

There is more than one side to an issue.  You would do well to learn that.


If you interviewed those giving up their citizenship, I suspect that a large percentage would be people who live overseas and are shut out of the financial systems there because the US threatens the institutions with all kinds of mayhem if they don't toe the line regarding US citizens. Far easier (for the institution) to exclude them. So if you're going to stay there, you may as well jettison that baggage before it drags you under.
 
2013-08-10 02:22:48 PM  

BafflerMeal: badhatharry: Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.

This is why people are leaving now.

There is a financial reniuncement fee already, but i'm not sure how much it is. Also, and this is nuts, one can renounce, burn their passport, become a citizen of another country, and the us gov claims rights to your income for ten years after.


It runs 40% if your net assets are over $2 million.
 
2013-08-10 02:22:56 PM  

dywed88: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

If you are paying tax in the US on Norwegian income you are probably doing something wrong, and if Norwegian taxes are that low you don't have much to complain about. FEIE and FTCs should more than cover your US taxes in pretty much any developed nation barring some weird circumstances. If you have trusts or a corporation or certain types of investments, than you can get some expensive filings but if you just need a 1040, two 1116s and an FBAR it shouldn't be that bad. It is the information returns that are the real problem.


As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.
 
2013-08-10 02:24:10 PM  

Shorelinefarker: Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.

Frankly, it's almost impossible to start a business in the state of New York without being a millionaire already. The amount of licences, permits and whatever else is is daunting.

Contrast that with a red state. All you need to do is say to yourself, "self, I'd like to start a business". You could go incorperate a business on your lunch hour if you felt like it

that's funny I just had a friend in NY who incorporated himself and his IT business (him and his wife working from home for the most part, she is on there for health insurance savings only ) and it was amazing how easy it was and how much money he is saving.

Washington is a very blue state, and starting a business here is easy.  At least for a sole proprietorship or LLC; I would assume that forming a corporation is more complicated.


yeah my friend did the LLC thing.
 
2013-08-10 02:26:06 PM  

HempHead: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


With that $88k+ ex-pat exemption+ deduction for local taxes, you must be pulling down some serious money.


LOLNOPE.  I am pulling in no money at all and we live off my husband's modest salary.
 
2013-08-10 02:27:14 PM  

Hobodeluxe: that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites


If people were paying for the services they use, then there is no need for government services, only market services. People would not be leaving if they only paid for what they used. The fact is government is required to make people pay for services -other- people use. So what you're voicing displeasure about is that the people paying the taxes to subsidize things you want to use but not pay for (or only pay a reduced price for) have decided to leave and not subsidize you any longer. So who is the parasite?
 
2013-08-10 02:29:29 PM  

JasonOfOrillia: Rwa2play: propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.

This.

So, if they are residing overseas and have taken out citizenship there then what are they taking from the United States?


Only two things really; a security blanket feeling of protection, and the right to come back with your citizenship instead of a green card and a ridiculously long wait. (usually 20-40 years if at all)
 
2013-08-10 02:30:32 PM  

FloydA: leadmetal:
FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.

Nope.  Try again.


Well there is avoiding the police state, the fact they are living elsewhere already and don't need the IRS farking with them (which is the long version of the above), and the economic decline of the USA, which again is related. But this fark, so keeping things simple is key.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:32:03 PM  

ManifestDestiny: It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


Uh, no.  I have lived overseas myself, and it doesn't work that way.

You aren't "taxed twice over", unless you just don't bother to take the Foreign Tax Credit.  If you pay more taxes in Norway than in the US you should owe nothing in taxes to the IRS.
 
2013-08-10 02:32:09 PM  

leadmetal: Hobodeluxe: that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites

If people were paying for the services they use, then there is no need for government services, only market services. People would not be leaving if they only paid for what they used. The fact is government is required to make people pay for services -other- people use. So what you're voicing displeasure about is that the people paying the taxes to subsidize things you want to use but not pay for (or only pay a reduced price for) have decided to leave and not subsidize you any longer. So who is the parasite?


the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.
 
2013-08-10 02:32:33 PM  
You still have to pay US tax for 10 years.
 
2013-08-10 02:33:13 PM  

ManifestDestiny: That must be a very new development because that directly conflicts with the information I got the last time I pulled my hair out trying to figure out my tax situation. I thank you very sincerely for the advice, tho I'm not sure the wages I could pull would cover my costs.  I'll look into this and run the numbers again!


If you make less than 100k and don't have investments in your name, claim a Section 911 foreign earned income exclusion. If you make more or have significant investment income, claim an Foreign Tax Credit (FTC) on form 1116. Assuming Norwegian tax rates are higher than US, that should eliminate all US taxes on Norwegian income no matter the amount of income or the source. If you have US source income, Norway will provide an FTC to offset it. Now, the return will likely cost a couple grand to prepare, but you should net more than that at a job.

For the vast majority of people, if you pay tax in multiple countries you will just pay the higher of the two tax rates.

dr-shotgun: I'm a dual US/Canadian citizen (who's never lived in Canada, my mother became a US citizen after I was born). Canadian tax rates are, on the whole, about the same as what my US tax rates would be.


Canadian tax rates are almost always higher than the US. Certain exceptions, such as single, very high income earners in California vs Alberta. But for the vast majority of people your taxes in Canada will be higher even before considering sales tax.
 
2013-08-10 02:33:24 PM  

BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]


Bye Bye.
I'm sure they all think they're John Galts, reluctantly denying their valuable services to a society that will sorely miss them.
I will be absolutely amazed if we even notice they're gone.
 
2013-08-10 02:33:48 PM  

buckler: The funny thing is that, according to law, you can only renounce your citizenship outside the US, at a foreign embassy or consulate.


That's just common sense. You don't want some f***er pranking the system. I'd imagine it takes more than one visit, too.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:33:55 PM  

flucto: There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.


Or trolls. Maybe people who believe what they read on Investors.com
 
2013-08-10 02:33:55 PM  

vpb: ManifestDestiny: It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

Uh, no.  I have lived overseas myself, and it doesn't work that way.

You aren't "taxed twice over", unless you just don't bother to take the Foreign Tax Credit.  If you pay more taxes in Norway than in the US you should owe nothing in taxes to the IRS.


As I've said to someone else, I think I've either been lied to or the victim of incompetent embassy staffers.
 
2013-08-10 02:34:00 PM  
Good job, Obama
 
2013-08-10 02:34:41 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Coming on a Bicycle: ManifestDestiny: flucto: ManifestDestiny: Bar you from entering the US? Even on a tourist visa?

According to whomever it was I spoke with at the embassy, yes. If you renounce and then switch citizenships, you get a 10 year timeout.


Wow, that's even worse than I thought. I just thought you'd get put at the back of the line for a green card.
 
2013-08-10 02:35:52 PM  

RandomAxe: iheartscotch: You'd have to do it in the more "bootstrappy" states; because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

/ one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard

LOL. It's not regulations and greedy bureaucrats who have driven up the medallion cost in NYC. It's greedy millionaire cab medallion owners. A medallion is very expensive but typically returns about 5-7% in gains per year on the original investment while also gaining value. Rich people compete over things like that and have no desire to let new players into that game.

You can google this example pretty easily. And, in fact, it's pretty typical. Giant corporations have the money for new start-up locations and don't want small businesses horning in, so they lobby to have regulations established that crush smaller competitors. Government regulations are the tool, not the enemy.


So greedy that they cost themselves extra money? It is still a part of the regulation. What possible harm would it entail to lower the price to $100,000?
 
2013-08-10 02:37:06 PM  

pedrop357: Those same laws also apply to people who've lived in other countries for years and haven't even set foot in the US in years. Foreign banks are choosing to simply not allow US residents to open accounts rather than deal with the US government or breach the privacy of their members.

There is more than one side to an issue. You would do well to learn that.


Clearly you've got some learning to do on your own.  If these people were to actually pay comparable taxes in the countries in which they reside, they could offset the amount paid in foreign taxes from their US taxes.  That doesn't work for them because they're mostly living in tax havens.

These rich assholes don't want to pay any tax, anywhere.

Many of them like having their cake and eating it too.  US citizenship is a great fallback.    You think these folks wouldn't come running and screaming back to the good ole' USA if the paradise they're living in turned to shiat?

These people SHOULD have to choose.  If they want US citizenship, they should pay taxes, somewhere.  They are freeloaders.
 
2013-08-10 02:37:56 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


How do we get the rest of the tax cheats to leave?
 
2013-08-10 02:38:19 PM  

brantgoose: I know Japan has low taxes compared to the US.

Some considerations:

People will always look on you as a curiosity.

They haven't accepted Chinese and Korean immigrants after 600 years of residence.

Your taxes are low, but the mortgage on your closet sized apartment will take three to four generations to pay off.

You may have to wear surgical masks to breathe.

You may have to pay $100 for a watermelon, or a three ounce Kobo beef "steak", just because it is disgustingly fatty.

You will have to learn Japanese.

You may be beaten up by left wing or far right wing protestors wearing body armor and helmets.

They kill whales every though they have thousands of tons of whale meat on ice that not even the Japanese want to eat.

About three quarters of the country is sacred forest, so your very costly paper comes from Brazil and the population of Canada is crowded into urban Tokyo (and that of California into Metro Tokyo).


I may have benefited from being blonde (at the time) but I never got beat up when I was living in Japan. My experience was the girls and women went nutso over me due to my baby face and blonde hair. I remember one time my class went on a field trip to a Japanese school and I was the first to walk into the classroom. As soon as they saw me, they screamed (dunno if it was from terror or from joy). Since I was a stupid kid, I ran out.

/golden-brown hair now
//nobody screams when they see me these days...
 
2013-08-10 02:38:22 PM  

FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?


Well, since you are serious. You are paying income tax on wages earned. Mitt is paying capital gains tax on returns on investments.  Mitt would pay 30% if he earned a wage at a job. You would pay about 14% if you cashed out your 401K.
 
2013-08-10 02:39:42 PM  

FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?


If you made more than 50% of your "income" from Capital Gains, you wouldn't have a 30% tax rate either.

That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.
 
2013-08-10 02:40:56 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


Why can't embassies, foreign relations, and American installations abroad be free?  Then you could enjoy your citizenship benefits without any cost.
 
2013-08-10 02:41:46 PM  

Southern100: That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.


Romney is one of the people who crafted that system.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:41:46 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Bar you from entering the US? Even on a tourist visa?

According to whomever it was I spoke with at the embassy, yes. If you renounce and then switch citizenships, you get a 10 year timeout.


If you specifically state that you are doing it for tax purposes.  If you say it's in protest of the Iraq war or something then no.
 
2013-08-10 02:42:12 PM  

vpb: Uh, no. I have lived overseas myself, and it doesn't work that way.

You aren't "taxed twice over", unless you just don't bother to take the Foreign Tax Credit. If you pay more taxes in Norway than in the US you should owe nothing in taxes to the IRS.


Exactly right.  The taxes in places like Norway are far higher than they are in the US.  Perhaps outside some very exceptional circumstances, no US citizen living in Norway should have to pay any US tax.  If you are, it's time to get a new accountant.
 
2013-08-10 02:42:48 PM  

ManifestDestiny: There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


What the pluck? AFAIK that's only if you're switching to a notax jurisdiction and taking your money with you AND State or IRS finds out, then they bar you from re-entry. How many millions of moneybucks were you planning to run away with?
 
2013-08-10 02:43:25 PM  
Some people don't base their lives around national boundaries, and want to live wherever without being penalized for it. The US is about the only western government on the planet that doesn't comprehend this. If a person makes a living in a foreign country, under what right does the US have claim to a share? Are we really going to run with the juvenile concept that it's a membership fee of some kind?
 
2013-08-10 02:44:50 PM  

Hobodeluxe: Deep Contact: Someone has to pay for Obummers vacations.

[thenevadaview.com image 700x843]


The point is pay for the cost not the frequency.  How much do Obama and family vacations to Hawaii, Africa etc cost compared to Crawford Texas.

 Or put another way 1 trip to Hawaii pays for how many trips to Crawford?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:44:56 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: For middle class people living abroad and renouncing due to IRS hassles - good for them too.  If you're living in Thailand/Germany/Sweden/Wherever and you plan on continuing to live there you should become a citizen of that country anyway.


I don't think it is even an issue for middle class people unless they live in somewhere with no income tax like Monaco.  This "exit tax" people complain about is only on assets over $2 million.

Spin pieces like this tend to leave out important details like that and foreign tax credit.
 
2013-08-10 02:45:15 PM  

propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.


I wasn't aware the majority renouncing were occupiers.
 
2013-08-10 02:45:43 PM  

Alphakronik: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

How do we get the rest of the tax cheats to leave?


At least those cheats will be contributing something. I seem to remember ObamaCare was going to be "budget neutral" due to projected increases in tax revenues. What now?
 
2013-08-10 02:46:56 PM  
They must be part of the freeloading 47%
 
2013-08-10 02:47:00 PM  

FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?


The same reason Al Gore gets into his private plane to go to his speaking engagements. Because, at the end of the day, they have more influence on the system then just about anybody else. Also, they have legions of flunkies to do their bidding.
 
2013-08-10 02:47:41 PM  

leadmetal: FloydA: leadmetal:
FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.

Nope.  Try again.

Well there is avoiding the police state, the fact they are living elsewhere already and don't need the IRS farking with them (which is the long version of the above), and the economic decline of the USA, which again is related. But this fark, so keeping things simple is key.



OK, so you started from the assumption that the US is a police state and the government is stealing people's money and providing nothing in return.  These are demonstrably and obviously false claims, so your premises are crap, and any conclusion you draw from them will be false.

Now you've moved on to claiming that the USA is in economic decline (without, I might add, noting that cause of our current economic problems is the supply side "Reaganomics" nonsense), failing to note that we're actually doing far better than nearly everyone else.

You are still embarrassingly unaware that nobody wants to stop all the "bootstrappy" types from leaving (except perhaps for the nations that you plan on moving to).  You just go on dreaming the apocalyptic dream that society will collapse when you all move to Galt's Gulch.

Go.  Please go.  We won't miss you.  The people who refuse to pay taxes in the US should not have the benefits of US citizenship.   If you're honestly under the impression that the benefits aren't worth the costs, I wholeheartedly encourage you to leave and renounce your citizenship.  Go.  Good riddance.  Need help packing?
 
2013-08-10 02:48:28 PM  

Rand's lacy underwear: ManifestDestiny: There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

What the pluck? AFAIK that's only if you're switching to a notax jurisdiction and taking your money with you AND State or IRS finds out, then they bar you from re-entry. How many millions of moneybucks were you planning to run away with?


Enough to buy all the midget porn ever made.

Heh.  Not really.  I moved with two suitcases and the clothes on my back. And maybe $200 in my pocket after withdrawing whatever was left after a shoestring wedding.
 
2013-08-10 02:48:50 PM  

badhatharry: Well, since you are serious. You are paying income tax on wages earned. Mitt is paying capital gains tax on returns on investments. Mitt would pay 30% if he earned a wage at a job. You would pay about 14% if you cashed out your 401K.


You fail to point out that Mittens purposefully arranged to receive the majority of wages in investment income in order to reduce his tax burden.  If a small businessman moves the majority of his salary to 100k in investment income, the IRS will step on his weener.  If the CEO of a private equity does that with 100 million in investment income, no problem.

The easy fix would be to grade all received money as income, no matter the source.  Wages = income.  Dividends = income.  Inheritance = income.

That single fix would solve most of our debt issues.
 
2013-08-10 02:49:01 PM  

gaslight: buckler: The funny thing is that, according to law, you can only renounce your citizenship outside the US, at a foreign embassy or consulate.

That's just common sense. You don't want some f***er pranking the system. I'd imagine it takes more than one visit, too.


It's "common sense" that the government can refuse to acknowledge your decision to renounce citizenship, and continue taking your money? That's like Comcast saying they refuse to disconnect your service and sending a collection agency after you.

/this coming from a guy who doesn't mind paying taxes and believes in progressive taxation
//but it's a breech of basic human rights to dictate citizenship to a person
 
2013-08-10 02:49:16 PM  
If you are living outside the U.S. and have no plans to ever return, why are you playing U.S. taxes?  Why not just become a citizen of what ever nation you are staying in?  Yeah, I know that it's extremely difficult and expensive and time consuming (someone told me that to become an Australian resident, you have to live in Australia for two years without a job and show proof that you can afford to do that before arriving), but if you've been overseas for the past five years and have no plans to ever return, why not pursue it?
 
2013-08-10 02:49:54 PM  

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


What services are those you farking retard? I haven't lived in the states for years, I only go (irregularly) to see family and the IRS wants me to pay taxes every year? For what? Your wars? Preventing abortions? Making sure only white people can vote if at all possible? Are you retarded?
 
2013-08-10 02:50:45 PM  

generallyso: Southern100: That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.

Romney is one of the people who crafted that system.


The idea was to encourage investment to stimulate the economy instead of sticking the cash in your mattress. Stimulating the wallets of fund managers was a nice side effect.
 
2013-08-10 02:51:00 PM  

Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.


So goes the mantra of claiming right to the property of others.

The taxes on a gallon of gas pay for the same use of services. As supposedly does sales tax and utility taxes (many of which were passed as a way to tax the rich who had the utilities first). Social security benefits do not extend upwards beyond the point to which they are taxed. Thus what you are demanding isn't that people who can afford the very expensive process (with some exceptions for some people due to their ancestry)  of leaving the US forever pay for what they use, you are demanding they pay for what other people use.

Thus the services argument is complete bullshiat. Instead what you are doing (beyond justifying theft) is trying to punish the slave that ran away from massa. Why does the runaway slave need to be punished? Because now someone else has to do the runaway's share of the cotton picking along with his own. Also massa has become far more harsh on those who remain on the plantation. The idea of telling massa to fark off doesn't even come up.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:51:24 PM  

ManifestDestiny: As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.


Well, consular workers are probably not the people to go to for tax advice.  Did you look at the IRS website?  It sounds like you have gotten some bad advice or taken some spin too seriously,

It would have been sad if you renounced your citizenship to avoid a tax disadvantage that doesn't exist.
 
2013-08-10 02:51:46 PM  

ManifestDestiny: dywed88: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

If you are paying tax in the US on Norwegian income you are probably doing something wrong, and if Norwegian taxes are that low you don't have much to complain about. FEIE and FTCs should more than cover your US taxes in pretty much any developed nation barring some weird circumstances. If you have trusts or a corporation or certain types of investments, than you can get some expensive filings but if you just need a 1040, two 1116s and an FBAR it shouldn't be that bad. It is the information returns that are the real problem.

As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.


As a summary:

For employment income you can claim a section 911 exclusion, known as the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion or FEIE, on form 2555. This allows you to exclude up to $97,600 USD of foreign employment or business income from US taxes. This is somewhat simpler to file than an FTC (explained later), so if doing it yourself and you income is all from employment it is probably the better option. This also applies if your local tax rate is lower than in the US.

If you have more income than the limit and/or income that isn't covered you ill need to claim a Foreign Tax Credit (FTC) using form 1116. This can be somewhat more complicated, but is the preferred option if you are in a jurisdiction with higher tax rates than the US. With an FTC, you report to the IRS your Norwegian taxes (and this likely includes some social security taxes, but that is on a case-by-case basis and I can't comment on Norway) and you can claim a credit against US taxes on your foreign income. If your Norwegian taxes are greater than the US ones you will get credit against all US taxes you would otherwise owe. If you have income from US sources, you will still have to pay some to the IRS, but you can get the same credit from Norway for US taxes paid.

The first year especially get a professional to prepare it so that you have a reference if you decide to do it on your own in the future. It will likely cost a couple grand, but I assume you will net more than that from a job. If you were talking to IRS people at the embassy they were probably incompetent, lazy, or both. Talk to an accountant instead (one with US cross border specialists, preferably from a firm with a presence in both the US and Norway). It will cost a bit but they generally know more far than the front line IRS people (and have an incentive to help you minimize taxes as they want your references and business).
 
2013-08-10 02:52:01 PM  

Hobodeluxe: that's funny I just had a friend in NY who incorporated himself and his IT business (him and his wife working from home for the most part, she is on there for health insurance savings only ) and it was amazing how easy it was and how much money he is saving.


As a cpa who has dealt with NY and NYC residents and business that is BS. From either you, your friend or both.
 
2013-08-10 02:54:25 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Some people don't base their lives around national boundaries, and want to live wherever without being penalized for it. The US is about the only western government on the planet that doesn't comprehend this. If a person makes a living in a foreign country, under what right does the US have claim to a share? Are we really going to run with the juvenile concept that it's a membership fee of some kind?


Have you missed all of the posts explaining that, if you are taxed at a higher rate in another country, you don't pay anything to the US (on foreign earned income). Even if you aren't taxed at a higher rate than the US charges, you still get to deduct the foreign taxes from the US federal taxes you pay. Are you confused or something?
 
2013-08-10 02:54:31 PM  

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


Couple of things, first, even with fibbing a little on their tax returns, the wealthy pay far more in taxes than the average person and on average, they receive far fewer government services.  The bottom line is for the big government system to work, we need the wealthy to stick around because they are the ones paying for it all.  I understand class envy and resentment for those you perceive as having "more" than you, but "GTFO" is not what we should be saying to those that fund the government.

France and England have been dealing with this very same issue recently.   The number of millionaires in England dropped by 2/3 after a big hike to their taxes and of course the issue in France was highlighted by Gerard Depardieu renouncing his French citizenship over taxes.
 
2013-08-10 02:55:06 PM  

badhatharry: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

Well, since you are serious. You are paying income tax on wages earned. Mitt is paying capital gains tax on returns on investments.  Mitt would pay 30% if he earned a wage at a job. You would pay about 14% if you cashed out your 401K.


Southern100:

If you made more than 50% of your "income" from Capital Gains, you wouldn't have a 30% tax rate either.

That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.



I'm aware of the mechanisms.  I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income.  I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

(I know the actual reason is that rich people write the laws, I was asking for someone to tell me the "rationalization" that makes those laws acceptable to about half of the voters.)
 
2013-08-10 02:55:38 PM  

xxdangerbobxx: What services are those you farking retard? I haven't lived in the states for years, I only go (irregularly) to see family and the IRS wants me to pay taxes every year? For what? Your wars? Preventing abortions? Making sure only white people can vote if at all possible? Are you retarded?


Are you? Or are you just living in a tax haven?

If you're living outside the US, the foreign tax credit stipulates that any taxes paid overseas offset any US taxes owed.  So unless you're living in some low-tax or no-tax haven, you shouldn't owe much, if anything.

You're telling me that if your current place of residence turned to shiat tomorrow you wouldn't pack up and head back to the good ole' USA?  Your passport is a fallback.  If having a fallback isn't important to you, then give back the passport and live a happy life overseas.
 
2013-08-10 02:55:52 PM  

jnapier: Just because you renounce your citizenship does NOT mean you cant live in America.
Where do you get the idea they have to live in ButtFyckistan?

By the way.  California raised the state tax on people making more than $1M a few years ago.
They thought this would raise revenue.
What happened is that those making more than $1M left the state.

The net result was LESS taxes from rich people.
Questions? See Detroit.


Except, what actually happened was a couple news stations made noise about millionaires leaving, when there was actually a net gain of millionaires moving into the state.

"THESE 5 MILLIONAIRES LEFT CALIFORNIA BECAUSE OF TAXES but never mind that these 7 moved in during the same period."
 
2013-08-10 02:56:04 PM  

iheartscotch: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

The same reason Al Gore gets into his private plane



DRINK
 
2013-08-10 02:57:07 PM  

xxdangerbobxx: FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

What services are those you farking retard? I haven't lived in the states for years, I only go (irregularly) to see family and the IRS wants me to pay taxes every year? For what? Your wars? Preventing abortions? Making sure only white people can vote if at all possible? Are you retarded?



Zero to [PLONK] in one post.  Impressive.
 
2013-08-10 02:57:49 PM  

RandomRandom: vpb: Uh, no. I have lived overseas myself, and it doesn't work that way.

You aren't "taxed twice over", unless you just don't bother to take the Foreign Tax Credit. If you pay more taxes in Norway than in the US you should owe nothing in taxes to the IRS.

Exactly right.  The taxes in places like Norway are far higher than they are in the US.  Perhaps outside some very exceptional circumstances, no US citizen living in Norway should have to pay any US tax.  If you are, it's time to get a new accountant.


One caveat: other countries don't necessarily calculate taxes in the same way.  In the US, everything is calculated as a percentage of gross income - X% in federal income taxes, Y% for state income taxes, Z% for local income taxes.  But here in France, for example, my income taxes are calculated as a percentage of the net that remains after they take out the withholdings for social security, medical, retirement, etc.  And that's a lot of money - up to a third of my pre-tax gross income, in fact.  So much so that if I were merely to claim the credit for the income tax I pay to the French government against my US tax liability (instead of the foreign earned income exclusion), I'd fall about $6,000 short on my US tax liabilities.

Now, the income tax scale here ramps up pretty quickly, so that you hit the top bracket with the 41% marginal rate at around 72,000€/year.  So if you're above the Earned Income Tax Credit, I believe you have a fair bit of headroom until you cross the line and start owing US taxes on top of French ones.  Needless to say, I'm not there yet.
 
2013-08-10 02:58:01 PM  
I guess we'll just annex the Cayman's.

Bastards blew up our steamship
 
2013-08-10 02:59:00 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.


Serves you right for muddying your bath of birth with laplanders and square heads.  Should have stayed at home and married a Mexican.
 
2013-08-10 02:59:27 PM  
I'm as much of a "Fark you, pay your damn taxes" guy as they come, but I don't see what right the US govt has to tax money made overseas. If you don't live here, don't work here, and don't invest here, you shouldn't be taxed here. I can see some sort of mandatory payout to keep you eligible for SS and Medicare if you come back, but what's the logic of income tax?
 
2013-08-10 03:00:05 PM  

MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?


Need the tax revenue right now and what will stop the new millionaires from making the same choice the ones of today are once they finally reach that point?
 
2013-08-10 03:04:45 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: they receive far fewer government services


Bullshiat. Most of the wealth they generate depends on infrastructure that is payed for directly or indirectly by federal taxes.
 
2013-08-10 03:06:06 PM  

MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?


It's getting there. Making billionaires out of millionaires is becoming easier if you have the right friends in govt., but the average Joe starting a business and becoming rich is becoming much more difficult.
 
2013-08-10 03:06:38 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


Then you are an idiot.

If you are making under 98k I think it is now, you don't have to pay federal income tax in the U.S. If you are making more than that, but are also paying taxes in your host country, those taxes will be deducted from what you owe in federal U.S income taxes, which in most cases since the U.S has the lowest income tax rate in the industrialize world means you won't pay any federal U.S income taxes. So either you are lying or your an idiot that is throwing money away because you are too lazy to do some paper work.

These new reporting laws are in place to get people who are hiding money overseas.
 
2013-08-10 03:07:09 PM  

vpb: ManifestDestiny: As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.

Well, consular workers are probably not the people to go to for tax advice.  Did you look at the IRS website?  It sounds like you have gotten some bad advice or taken some spin too seriously,

It would have been sad if you renounced your citizenship to avoid a tax disadvantage that doesn't exist.


The embassy here does offer tax advice. Or did at the time in question.  I don't know if they still do.  I haven't been up there in a while.
 
GBB
2013-08-10 03:07:12 PM  

TopoGigo: I'm as much of a "Fark you, pay your damn taxes" guy as they come, but I don't see what right the US govt has to tax money made overseas. If you don't live here, don't work here, and don't invest here, you shouldn't be taxed here. I can see some sort of mandatory payout to keep you eligible for SS and Medicare if you come back, but what's the logic of income tax?


As a US citizen, you enjoy all sorts of perks such as government assistance in the event that you end up being kidnapped or some such.  I'm sure someone out there, especially someone that works overseas, can elaborate on what all US citizens have available to them while overseas.
 
2013-08-10 03:07:25 PM  

FloydA: badhatharry: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

Well, since you are serious. You are paying income tax on wages earned. Mitt is paying capital gains tax on returns on investments.  Mitt would pay 30% if he earned a wage at a job. You would pay about 14% if you cashed out your 401K.

Southern100:

If you made more than 50% of your "income" from Capital Gains, you wouldn't have a 30% tax rate either.

That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.


I'm aware of the mechanisms.  I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income.  I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

(I know the actual reason is that rich people write the laws, I was asking for someone to tell me the "rationalization" that makes those laws acceptable to about half of the voters.)


Because it encourages people to invest instead of save. If taxes are too high on any profit, it might not be worth risking their money.  Things will get ugly if people start saving their money.
 
2013-08-10 03:08:52 PM  

FloydA: iheartscotch: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

The same reason Al Gore gets into his private plane


DRINK


Pretty much.

The real answer to your question is, the system is broken. We should burn it down, collect the insurance money and start from scratch.
 
2013-08-10 03:09:05 PM  

ongbok: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

Then you are an idiot.

If you are making under 98k I think it is now, you don't have to pay federal income tax in the U.S. If you are making more than that, but are also paying taxes in your host country, those taxes will be deducted from what you owe in federal U.S income taxes, which in most cases since the U.S has the lowest income tax rate in the industrialize world means you won't pay any federal U.S income taxes. So either you are lying or your an idiot that is throwing money away because you are too lazy to do some paper work.

These new reporting laws are in place to get people who are hiding money overseas.


Way to not read the thread.  Congrats.  Feel special today.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:09:22 PM  

Robo Beat: One caveat: other countries don't necessarily calculate taxes in the same way.  In the US, everything is calculated as a percentage of gross income - X% in federal income taxes, Y% for state income taxes, Z% for local income taxes.  But here in France, for example, my income taxes are calculated as a percentage of the net that remains after they take out the withholdings for social security, medical, retirement, etc.  And that's a lot of money - up to a third of my pre-tax gross income, in fact.  So much so that if I were merely to claim the credit for the income tax I pay to the French government against my US tax liability (instead of the foreign earned income exclusion), I'd fall about $6,000 short on my US tax liabilities.

Now, the income tax scale here ramps up pretty quickly, so that you hit the top bracket with the 41% marginal rate at around 72,000€/year.  So if you're above the Earned Income Tax Credit, I believe you have a fair bit of headroom until you cross the line and start owing US taxes on top of French ones.  Needless to say, I'm not there yet.


The Foreign Earned Income Exemption is $97,600 for 2013.  And it sounds like the taxes in France are lower than I thought.
 
2013-08-10 03:10:38 PM  
So it looks like about 2000 people so far have renounced citizenship, out of a population of 350 Million or so. It's a rounding error on a rounding error. And no analysis that demonstrates that most of these people are ultra wealthy and paying a lot in taxes. Probably a mix of folks, many who have just relocated to another country. Might even be liberal protestors who object to the right wing craziness in America now. Doesn't prove a thing or necessarily have any effect on tax revenue.
 
2013-08-10 03:10:52 PM  

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


LoL.

You do realise this is dualcitizens right?

If you think there's some Team America thing going on, then you're a moron. These are people with citizenship in an European country.
 
2013-08-10 03:11:26 PM  

vpb: Robo Beat: One caveat: other countries don't necessarily calculate taxes in the same way.  In the US, everything is calculated as a percentage of gross income - X% in federal income taxes, Y% for state income taxes, Z% for local income taxes.  But here in France, for example, my income taxes are calculated as a percentage of the net that remains after they take out the withholdings for social security, medical, retirement, etc.  And that's a lot of money - up to a third of my pre-tax gross income, in fact.  So much so that if I were merely to claim the credit for the income tax I pay to the French government against my US tax liability (instead of the foreign earned income exclusion), I'd fall about $6,000 short on my US tax liabilities.

Now, the income tax scale here ramps up pretty quickly, so that you hit the top bracket with the 41% marginal rate at around 72,000€/year.  So if you're above the Earned Income Tax Credit, I believe you have a fair bit of headroom until you cross the line and start owing US taxes on top of French ones.  Needless to say, I'm not there yet.

The Foreign Earned Income Exemption is $97,600 for 2013.  And it sounds like the taxes in France are lower than I thought.


But as someone described above, if you use the FTC then you may be able to include foreign social security paid.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:11:35 PM  
FloydA:
I'm aware of the mechanisms.  I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income.  I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

Because investors are the "job creators"   Apparently the economy is driven entirely by investment and people who aren't investors are moochers.
 
2013-08-10 03:12:37 PM  
Pumpernickel bread:
Couple of things, first, even with fibbing a little on their tax returns, the wealthy pay far more in taxes than the average person and on average, they receive far fewer government services.

Your first claim, that the wealthy pay far more, is based on a misunderstanding of ratios.  If I'm paying 30% of my income in taxes and Paris Hilton is paying 14% of her income, it is irrelevant that her total contribution is larger than mine; she is being given a benefit that I am not.

Your second claim, that the wealthy receive fewer government services, is patently false.  Roads, bridges, railways, airports, and all of our transportation infrastructure exist largely to allow easy transport of goods from producers to markets.  The wealthy benefit disproportionately from transportation infrastructure.  Police forces and the justice system exist, in large part, to protect property and enforce contracts.  Those who own the most property benefit the most from the existence of our legal and law enforcement system.  FEMA and the National Guard exist, in large part, to protect lives and restore real property in the event of natural disasters.  People who own property benefit from those services, and the more property they own, the more they benefit.

It is popular, among a segment of the population, to assume that "government services" only refers to food stamps and welfare checks, but that is not accurate.


The bottom line is for the big government system to work, we need the wealthy to stick around because they are the ones paying for it all.

Except that, in the US, the middle class are the ones paying for it all.


I understand class envy and resentment for those you perceive as having "more" than you

No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.
 
2013-08-10 03:12:54 PM  

FloydA: leadmetal: FloydA: leadmetal:
FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.

Nope.  Try again.

Well there is avoiding the police state, the fact they are living elsewhere already and don't need the IRS farking with them (which is the long version of the above), and the economic decline of the USA, which again is related. But this fark, so keeping things simple is key.


OK, so you started from the assumption that the US is a police state and the government is stealing people's money and providing nothing in return.  These are demonstrably and obviously false claims, so your premises are crap, and any conclusion you draw from them will be false.

Now you've moved on to claiming that the USA is in economic decline (without, I might add, noting that cause of our current economic problems is the supply side "Reaganomics" nonsense), failing to note that we're actually doing far better than nearly everyone else.

You are still embarrassingly unaware that nobody wants to stop all the "bootstrappy" types from leaving (except perhaps for the nations that you plan on moving to).  You just go on dreaming the apocalyptic dream that society will collapse when you all move to Galt's Gulch.

Go.  Please go.  We won't miss you.  The people who refuse to pay taxes in the US should not have the benefits of US citizenship.   If you're honestly under the impression that the benefits aren't worth the costs, I wholeheartedly encourage you to leave and renounce your citizenship.  Go.  Good riddance.  Need help packing?


You're babbling.

As I have demonstrated to your ideological partner, the services argument is complete bullshiat. What you and your kind want is the resources of other people. Plain and simple. That's why you want this big bloated government. If it was about paying for what one uses, then government services are not needed, only market services. People would pay for what they use. Government services allow forcing other people to pay for them or the bulk of their cost.

Also several people in this thread are voicing on keeping people from leaving via one method or another. In fact many people seem rather upset they are leaving.

The 0.1% that own the USA aren't renouncing citizenship. Their wealth is fully protected from the likes of you. The people who are running are those who cannot politically protect themselves from your kind or the predatory 0.1%. The people who are being stolen from on both ends but can afford to do something about it. Love it or leave it, they are leaving. Golden goose fly away.

It also seems you want to label me with a bunch of right-statism, sorry, I oppose that too. I oppose statism, be it left or right. The right statists are just as vicious regarding keeping people in this company town to exploit them as the left statists.

As to the police state, that should be obvious now. It's still selective and mostly preys upon poor people (but expanding to small business owners and the like), but it should be obvious none the less.  The real main street economic decline should also be obvious. Go see the next whine about how walmart shelve stockers don't make as much money as fork lift drivers, machinists, and other skilled people.

As to me, I cannot afford the cost to leave given my understanding of costs well into the six figures. I am one generation too far removed to get a passport in another country so I would have to buy one and pay for the whole process. Thus my plan is that when things start to get really bad is to blow everything on expensive cars and expensive women. I end up in the same shanty regardless. In fact I am getting really tired of working well into May just to pay for unthankful indignant people like yourself and/or those you champion. Maybe I'll just stop working. Not leave, just not work any more. You can't collect income taxes unless there's an income. Maybe even find a way on to the dole. A few baby mamas too... How about that?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:13:11 PM  

brilett: I guess we'll just annex the Cayman's.

Bastards blew up our steamship


And they shot down helen Keller when she tried to escape from the Germans by flying around the world.
 
2013-08-10 03:13:52 PM  

TopoGigo: If you don't live here, don't work here, and don't invest here, you shouldn't be taxed here.


Well if you want the option of coming back one day you don't want the place to fall apart do you?
 
2013-08-10 03:14:04 PM  

leadmetal: Projection ...

 
2013-08-10 03:15:43 PM  

dywed88: ManifestDestiny: As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.

As a summary:


For employment income you can claim a section 911 exclusion, known as the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion or FEIE, on form 2555. This allows you to exclude up to $97,600 USD of foreign employment or business income from US taxes. This is somewhat simpler to file than an FTC (explained later), so if doing it yourself and you income is all from employment it is probably the better option. This also applies if your local tax rate is lower than in the US.

If you have more income than the limit and/or income that isn't covered you ill need to claim a Foreign Tax Credit (FTC) using form 1116. This can be somewhat more complicated, but is the preferred option if you are in a jurisdiction with higher tax rates than the US. With an FTC, you report to the IRS your Norwegian taxes (and this likely includes some social security taxes, but that is on a case-by-case basis and I can't comment on Norway) and you can claim a credit against US taxes on your foreign income. If your Norwegian taxes are greater than the US ones you will get credit against all US taxes you would otherwise owe. If you have income from US sources, you will still have to pay some to the IRS, but you can get the same credit from Norway for US taxes paid.

The first year especially get a professional to prepare it so that you have a reference if you decide to do it on your own in the future. It will likely cost a couple grand, but I assume you will net more than that from a job. If you were talking to IRS people at the embassy they were probably incompetent, lazy, or both. Talk to an accountant instead (one with US cross border specialists, preferably from a firm with a presence in both the US and Norway). It will cost a bit but they generally know more far than the front line IRS people (and have an incentive to help you minimize taxes as they want your references and business).


Again, thank you so very much!  I will restart my inquiries as far as possible employment goes. At the very least, I won't be afraid of taking odd jobs and other small things.
 
ows
2013-08-10 03:16:06 PM  

badhatharry: Bunch of quitters. I'm not leaving until I have to sneak out.


that's when the "real fence" will go up.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:19:12 PM  

leadmetal: You're babbling.


As to me, I cannot afford the cost to leave given my understanding of costs well into the six figures

So even though the first two million is exempt it would cost you "well into the six figures"?  Or is your understanding of tax law as bad as your understanding of economics and government?
 
2013-08-10 03:20:06 PM  

GBB: As a US citizen, you enjoy all sorts of perks such as government assistance in the event that you end up being kidnapped or some such.


Not particularly. Unless someone can get a senator or something to champion your cause you're pretty much on your own. Of course in many cases the reason an american would be kidnapped in the first place has a lot to do with the US federal government's war on drugs, war on terror, or aggressive foreign policy in general.

Thus I would contend as far as getting kidnapped or some such in a foreign country goes, US citizenship is more of a risk than a benefit. As I understand it, being able to pass one's self off as a Canadian often helps in such situations.
 
2013-08-10 03:22:14 PM  

leadmetal: You're babbling.

As I have demonstrated to your ideological partner, the services argument is complete bullshiat. What you and your kind want is the resources of other people. Plain and simple. That's why you want this big bloated government. If it was about paying for what one uses, then government services are not needed, only market services. People would pay for what they use. Government services allow forcing other people to pay for them or the bulk of their cost.


Oh, you're a Randian.  Why didn't you just say so? It would have saved us both some time.  Rand's simplistic philosophy works fine in books where the hack author gets to deus ex machia solutions to any problems that arise, but in the real world, it works no better than any other ideology.   In the real world, you have to adjust your ideals to fit the people - you can't change the people to suit your ideals.  Rand's ideology is no better than Marx's ideology, in that both of them are fantasy worlds that cannot ever possibly exist.  You might just as well base your plan for society on the Harry Potter novels.
 
2013-08-10 03:22:48 PM  

FloydA: iheartscotch: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

The same reason Al Gore gets into his private plane


DRINK


Mr. Floyd A.,

I propose that we found a new nation. It has become obvious to me that the political powers which be cannot allow for meaningful reform. As such we must forge new ground.

Since there is, as it were, no ground to found, this nation must be a technological superiority. Thus shall we craft a nation of floating cities upon the ocean. As the time advances and as our technology advances, we can also build structures beneath the waves and in the Lagrangian points and beyond in the inky black forever.

I respectfully submit that this is a necessary act because there's fark-all chance we can find a proper compromise in-house.

/VR

Casual Disregard
 
2013-08-10 03:23:25 PM  

Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.


Why cant it be both.jpg
 
2013-08-10 03:25:10 PM  
yubanet.com
 
2013-08-10 03:25:55 PM  
Tax cheats give up citizenship rather than pay more taxes.

Just goes to show that once you reach a certain income level, you stop being American.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:26:45 PM  

leadmetal: Not particularly. Unless someone can get a senator or something to champion your cause you're pretty much on your own. Of course in many cases the reason an american would be kidnapped in the first place has a lot to do with the US federal government's war on drugs, war on terror, or aggressive foreign policy in general.

Thus I would contend as far as getting kidnapped or some such in a foreign country goes, US citizenship is more of a risk than a benefit. As I understand it, being able to pass one's self off as a Canadian often helps in such situations.


So go.

I suspect that it wouldn't cost you a dime to leave, but even if you do have more than 2 million in assets then paying 40% on the rest should still leave you with plenty, and you are only having to pay taxes on money you made in the US anyway.
 
2013-08-10 03:26:51 PM  

stevesporn2000: To the Norwegian bride - no, there is a tax treaty between the US and Norway. You get a tax credit and based upon Norway's tax rates you'd essentially only pay tax on investment income in the United States. There are some minor complicating factors for structuring your finances (such as whether a Roth IRA is better than a regular IRA) but it's really not that difficult. I think my accountant charged $1,000 a year when I was living overseas. Yes it's annoying, but it's a lot less than what you could make my working given that Norwegian wages are so much higher, and once they've done it once you can probably just do the forms yourself the next year. Or you can do what you're doing now, and just assume the problem is way too difficult to ever solve.


This. My wife got credit on all the taxes, et al., that she paid in Switzerland. She made a LOT of money there, and only paid taxes on a fraction of it all. Much of that is because we own a house, plane, et al.

/we do pay an accountant
//there are expenses to being a consultant
 
2013-08-10 03:27:18 PM  

vpb: leadmetal: You're babbling.

As to me, I cannot afford the cost to leave given my understanding of costs well into the six figures

So even though the first two million is exempt it would cost you "well into the six figures"?  Or is your understanding of tax law as bad as your understanding of economics and government?


Before you renounce US citizenship you need a passport in another country. The cost of this process varies depending on personal circumstances and ancestry. It's not what the USA takes in taxes, but this process that is the barrier. The cheapest route of course is to think a decade or more in advance and take up residence in another country fully understanding their immigration laws before hand. However not doing that means purchasing a passport and that is a very expensive process as I understand it.
 
2013-08-10 03:27:20 PM  

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


I always find this amusing when I think that here if you want help from the US gov as a US citizen you have to call a 900 number
Yes they charge by the minute
 
2013-08-10 03:28:11 PM  
I'd like to pay no taxes too but since I pay about the same 14% tax that Mitt does, no one will take me seriously


leadmetal: I am getting really tired of working well into May just to pay for unthankful indignant people like yourself and/or those you champion


Because everyone who thinks differently than you is clearly an inferior, unemployed subset of human who has no one to blame but himself  for what he earns?

.
 
2013-08-10 03:29:43 PM  
casual disregard:
Mr. Floyd A.,

I propose that we found a new nation. It has become obvious to me that the political powers which be cannot allow for meaningful reform. As such we must forge new ground.

Since there is, as it were, no ground to found, this nation must be a technological superiority. Thus shall we craft a nation of floating cities upon the ocean. As the time advances and as our technology advances, we can also build structures beneath the waves and in the Lagrangian points and beyond in the inky black forever.

I respectfully submit that this is a necessary act because there's fark-all chance we can find a proper compromise in-house.

/VR

Casual Disregard


You're not planning to ban spinach, onions, and the Reverend Horton Heat are you?
 
2013-08-10 03:29:51 PM  
fark all you haters! I have lived abroad 8 years. Why the hell do I need to file US taxes? Do you file state taxes in all 50 states?

Didn't think so.


I don't think any other country forces nonresidents to file.

I pay an assload of tax living in socialist Europe- FWIW.
 
2013-08-10 03:30:58 PM  

filter: fark all you haters! I have lived abroad 8 years. Why the hell do I need to file US taxes? Do you file state taxes in all 50 states?

Didn't think so.


I don't think any other country forces nonresidents to file.

I pay an assload of tax living in socialist Europe- FWIW.


Cry moar.
 
2013-08-10 03:31:56 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: pedrop357: ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.

At least those countries don't tax you even though haven't been in their borders for a year or more.

Yeah, this.  I'll be paying taxes in both Canada and the US this year, and every year, because I make more than 80K.  I've always said I'd never renounce my citizenship, but I gotta say it's tempting now.


I know a way out of this situation- claim the foreign tax exclusion, rather than the foreign income exemption.
 
2013-08-10 03:32:16 PM  

FloydA: casual disregard:
Mr. Floyd A.,

I propose that we found a new nation. It has become obvious to me that the political powers which be cannot allow for meaningful reform. As such we must forge new ground.

Since there is, as it were, no ground to found, this nation must be a technological superiority. Thus shall we craft a nation of floating cities upon the ocean. As the time advances and as our technology advances, we can also build structures beneath the waves and in the Lagrangian points and beyond in the inky black forever.

I respectfully submit that this is a necessary act because there's fark-all chance we can find a proper compromise in-house.

/VR

Casual Disregard

You're not planning to ban spinach, onions, and the Reverend Horton Heat are you?


I like red onions. Spinach is hit and miss, but some greens go a long way.

Who am I kidding. The whole operation would be overtaken by extremists.

There's literally nothing a leftist can do except whine or die.
 
2013-08-10 03:32:37 PM  

filter: fark all you haters! I have lived abroad 8 years. Why the hell do I need to file US taxes?


You don't.  Renounce your US citizenship.  Nobody is trying to stop you.
 
2013-08-10 03:33:24 PM  
Number of newly self-declared terrorists hits record high. And that's not even counting Edward Snowden

FTFY.

If they want to leave the US for tax reasons, then it is enough of a reason to consider them little different than Al Qaeda
 
2013-08-10 03:33:50 PM  

jjorsett: the US threatens the institutions with all kinds of mayhem if they their customers don't toe the line regarding US citizens.


This is the real problem, the bank can't be sure if the American is lying to them and the *bank* gets hit if *we* are.
 
2013-08-10 03:36:27 PM  
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-08-10 03:36:44 PM  
casual disregard:

I like red onions. Spinach is hit and miss, but some greens go a long way.

Who am I kidding. The whole operation would be overtaken by extremists.

There's literally nothing a leftist can do except whine or die.



We can encourage  them to set up floating cities on the ocean that will be tax-free libertarian paradises.

(Then we just need to find a way to keep them from coming back once they discover how quickly Galt's Gulch turns into Lord of the Flies.)
 
2013-08-10 03:37:49 PM  
This only proves that rich people have no loyalty to anything or anyone other than themselves and their bank accounts.
 
2013-08-10 03:39:07 PM  

FloydA: casual disregard:

I like red onions. Spinach is hit and miss, but some greens go a long way.

Who am I kidding. The whole operation would be overtaken by extremists.

There's literally nothing a leftist can do except whine or die.


We can encourage  them to set up floating cities on the ocean that will be tax-free libertarian paradises.

(Then we just need to find a way to keep them from coming back once they discover how quickly Galt's Gulch turns into Lord of the Flies.)


Galters never seem to grasp the simple reality that the moment that they exit the system, someone from beneath them in the system will step up to take their places.
 
2013-08-10 03:39:26 PM  

FloydA: leadmetal: You're babbling.

As I have demonstrated to your ideological partner, the services argument is complete bullshiat. What you and your kind want is the resources of other people. Plain and simple. That's why you want this big bloated government. If it was about paying for what one uses, then government services are not needed, only market services. People would pay for what they use. Government services allow forcing other people to pay for them or the bulk of their cost.

Oh, you're a Randian.  Why didn't you just say so? It would have saved us both some time.  Rand's simplistic philosophy works fine in books where the hack author gets to deus ex machia solutions to any problems that arise, but in the real world, it works no better than any other ideology.   In the real world, you have to adjust your ideals to fit the people - you can't change the people to suit your ideals.  Rand's ideology is no better than Marx's ideology, in that both of them are fantasy worlds that cannot ever possibly exist.  You might just as well base your plan for society on the Harry Potter novels.


You're wrong again. Never read Rand and what I know of her and her views I often find rather vile actually.

The simple fact is that the "services" argument is bullshiat on plain logical basis. Arguing that people are renouncing citizenship to avoid paying for what they use is simply illogical. Trying to convert it into an equally bullshiat social contract argument doesn't help you any. What you are saying with a social contract argument is that by circumstances of birth a person is bound much like a slave or serf would be bound. Except not being bound to a specific master, but bound to an institution of state which supposedly represents the interests of his fellow slaves. We're back to punishing the runaway slave because any slave that runs away means the rest of us have to pick more cotton per person.
 
2013-08-10 03:40:22 PM  
Love it or leave it!!

Oh wait...
 
2013-08-10 03:40:44 PM  
God forbid we offer citizenship to people that WANT to pay taxes here...
 
2013-08-10 03:41:01 PM  

edmo: Because everyone who thinks differently than you is clearly an inferior, unemployed subset of human who has no one to blame but himself for what he earns?


No because the person I was replying to thinks he or others are entitled to my labor as if it is their natural right.
 
2013-08-10 03:41:21 PM  

FloydA: casual disregard:

I like red onions. Spinach is hit and miss, but some greens go a long way.

Who am I kidding. The whole operation would be overtaken by extremists.

There's literally nothing a leftist can do except whine or die.


We can encourage  them to set up floating cities on the ocean that will be tax-free libertarian paradises.

(Then we just need to find a way to keep them from coming back once they discover how quickly Galt's Gulch turns into Lord of the Flies.)


"They" seem quite content to keep raping the populace in its little euphoria. That's why I think "we" need to make a clean break. At some point, you just stop conversating. We've passed that point. All we need is a few boats, my friend...
 
2013-08-10 03:41:23 PM  

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: I remember reading an article that the USA is the only major nation to tax all offshore income regardless of permanent residence.  I had to pay US taxes even though I lived abroad for nearly 300 days 4 years ago.  Sucked.


Don't evade(yes, creative avoidance counts too) taxes, and do taxes without having to resort to creative accounting.

That said, if you need creative accounting just so taxes are in order, you're doing it wrong.

brilett: I guess we'll just annex the Cayman's.


THIS. Then follow with the rest of the Carribean.  Finally, pressure the UK's domiciles and Ireland to harmonize tax policy.
 
2013-08-10 03:42:01 PM  
Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.

Today was my weekly trip to the grocery store where, as usual, I was the only person in line who actually purchased food with his own money. Tell me again how low-income individuals "pay the same" for their food. Perhaps you aren't aware, but they also frequently qualify for utility assistance.
 
2013-08-10 03:42:12 PM  

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


The problem is not the taxes but the compliance cost with the IRS measures.

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).


Don't you get credit on your taxes for the taxes you pay Norway?

FloydA: I'm aware of the mechanisms. I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income. I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

(I know the actual reason is that rich people write the laws, I was asking for someone to tell me the "rationalization" that makes those laws acceptable to about half of the voters.)


Actually there is a very good reason to tax capital gains lower--inflation.  You're not really making as much as it looks like in paper because you're getting back inflated dollars.  For typical stock market returns you actually pay more on capital gains than income once you consider this.
 
2013-08-10 03:42:14 PM  

leadmetal: FloydA: leadmetal: You're babbling.

As I have demonstrated to your ideological partner, the services argument is complete bullshiat. What you and your kind want is the resources of other people. Plain and simple. That's why you want this big bloated government. If it was about paying for what one uses, then government services are not needed, only market services. People would pay for what they use. Government services allow forcing other people to pay for them or the bulk of their cost.

Oh, you're a Randian.  Why didn't you just say so? It would have saved us both some time.  Rand's simplistic philosophy works fine in books where the hack author gets to deus ex machia solutions to any problems that arise, but in the real world, it works no better than any other ideology.   In the real world, you have to adjust your ideals to fit the people - you can't change the people to suit your ideals.  Rand's ideology is no better than Marx's ideology, in that both of them are fantasy worlds that cannot ever possibly exist.  You might just as well base your plan for society on the Harry Potter novels.

You're wrong again. Never read Rand and what I know of her and her views I often find rather vile actually.

The simple fact is that the "services" argument is bullshiat on plain logical basis. Arguing that people are renouncing citizenship to avoid paying for what they use is simply illogical. Trying to convert it into an equally bullshiat social contract argument doesn't help you any. What you are saying with a social contract argument is that by circumstances of birth a person is bound much like a slave or serf would be bound. Except not being bound to a specific master, but bound to an institution of state which supposedly represents the interests of his fellow slaves. We're back to punishing the runaway slave because any slave that runs away means the rest of us have to pick more cotton per person.


The Founding Fathers described it as a social contract, where we all put in in order to partake in the comforts of civilized society.

And Ben Franklin had harsh words for those who didn't like paying their taxes while still partaking in society's comforts.  He suggested that they get the fark out of America and go live in the wilds of the world.
 
2013-08-10 03:44:00 PM  
leadmetal:

i39.tinypic.com
In fact I am getting really tired of working well into May just to pay for unthankful indignant
people like yourself and/or those you champion.

i43.tinypic.com


Ever stop and wonder what goes into determining your gross income?

If we lowered taxes so that you were "done" paying on January 2, do you really think your gross would remain the same?

Go ahead and check out some comps. Test the market. What other countries offer more and charge less?
 
2013-08-10 03:44:43 PM  

RightToWork: Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.

Today was my weekly trip to the grocery store where, as usual, I was the only person in line who actually purchased food with his own money. Tell me again how low-income individuals "pay the same" for their food. Perhaps you aren't aware, but they also frequently qualify for utility assistance.


You poor poor man, being the only person in line who had enough money to pay for his food without governmental assistance.  lol
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:44:43 PM  

leadmetal: Before you renounce US citizenship you need a passport in another country. The cost of this process varies depending on personal circumstances and ancestry. It's not what the USA takes in taxes, but this process that is the barrier. The cheapest route of course is to think a decade or more in advance and take up residence in another country fully understanding their immigration laws before hand. However not doing that means purchasing a passport and that is a very expensive process as I understand it.


Having another passport is not a requirement and there is no fee.  You might have to pay some taxes if you are a high earner or are wealthy, but that's money earned while enjoying the benefits of US citizenship.  Finding another country to take you might be a problem but it's not the fault of the USA and doesn't mean you aren't free to go be a stateless person.
 
2013-08-10 03:45:36 PM  
Number of unPatriotic moochers and corporate welfare queens renouncing US citizenship hits record high.
 
2013-08-10 03:48:47 PM  

RandomRandom: The easy fix would be to grade all received money as income, no matter the source.  Wages = income.  Dividends = income.  Inheritance = income.


Only if you want to make sure that families don't pass businesses on from one generation to the next without incorporating them in the first place. Why encourage one generation to spend what they have on themselves (so the feds don't get it) rather than looking ahead to make sure their progeny can have a leg up because of the work they themselves have put in? Sure, I know, lazy trust fund kids & all that. But then there are those smart families that don't just look to make piles of loot, but rather have significant resources on hand that can be used to aid the family as a whole. Why encourage selfishness and spendthrift behavior when rational planning, cooperation, and long-term plans and projects can be encouraged, with the wisdom, skills, knowledge, and resources built up over generation passed down and used well?
 
2013-08-10 03:51:39 PM  
ManifestDestiny:

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.


Fire your accountant and find one who knows you get a tax credit for income tax paid to foreign governments.
 
2013-08-10 03:51:49 PM  

filter: Benevolent Misanthrope: pedrop357: ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.

At least those countries don't tax you even though haven't been in their borders for a year or more.

Yeah, this.  I'll be paying taxes in both Canada and the US this year, and every year, because I make more than 80K.  I've always said I'd never renounce my citizenship, but I gotta say it's tempting now.

I know a way out of this situation- claim the foreign tax exclusion, rather than the foreign income exemption.


It is amazing how many people, who are apparently smart enough to be wanted by an overseas employer, aren't smart enough to do a simple Google search, that will take them to the IRS webpage and explain to them their tax liability when working abroad.
 
2013-08-10 03:52:26 PM  

Princess Ryans Knickers: Number of unPatriotic moochers and corporate welfare queens renouncing US citizenship hits record high.


In other words, anyone who disagrees with what YOU say should automatically be silenced, shunned, and abandoned.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:53:11 PM  
filter:
I don't think any other country forces nonresidents to file.

I pay an assload of tax living in socialist Europe- FWIW.


It's not like you are paying any US tax if you are paying such high taxes in "Socialist Europe" anyway so I guess it's just the trouble of filing a form stating that you don't owe any money that is your problem.

If being a US citizen isn't worth such a tiny amount of effort to you then you probably shouldn't be a US citizen anyway.
 
2013-08-10 03:54:03 PM  

Infernalist: The Founding Fathers described it as a social contract, where we all put in in order to partake in the comforts of civilized society.

And Ben Franklin had harsh words for those who didn't like paying their taxes while still partaking in society's comforts. He suggested that they get the fark out of America and go live in the wilds of the world.


Which is relevant to my argument exactly how? Am I supposed to consider these people gods or something? Or your interpretation of them correct?

Besides an attempt to invoke authority you are circling back to the services issue. If taxation was on par with services rendered it would make no sense to leave. However taxation exceeds the value of services one gets by a large enough margin, people leave for places where they get a better deal.

That is one of the ideas behind retaining the many states. People and capital would flow to the states which offered a better value while fleeing others that offered a worse value. This works on an international basis as well. The problem is not that people are fleeing, it is that the USA is no longer offering the best value for various people with the means and opportunity to get out.
 
2013-08-10 03:54:04 PM  

feanorn: RandomRandom: The easy fix would be to grade all received money as income, no matter the source.  Wages = income.  Dividends = income.  Inheritance = income.

Only if you want to make sure that families don't pass businesses on from one generation to the next without incorporating them in the first place. Why encourage one generation to spend what they have on themselves (so the feds don't get it) rather than looking ahead to make sure their progeny can have a leg up because of the work they themselves have put in? Sure, I know, lazy trust fund kids & all that. But then there are those smart families that don't just look to make piles of loot, but rather have significant resources on hand that can be used to aid the family as a whole. Why encourage selfishness and spendthrift behavior when rational planning, cooperation, and long-term plans and projects can be encouraged, with the wisdom, skills, knowledge, and resources built up over generation passed down and used well?


Because long-term wealth is often sat-upon and not spent, not put into the system.  Long-term wealth creates an artificial 'nobility class' in this country based on how rich you are and how 'long' your family has been rich.  Hell, it's so bad that they actually have terms like 'new money' to look down upon the rich people who haven't been rich LONG ENOUGH.

Because long-term wealth that isn't invested in the country is often bad for the country as a whole.  I'm a firm believer that if I were to hit it rich, I either need to find a way to invest it into the country and put it to work, or I need to lose most of it upon my death.

My kids?  I can pay for their college ahead of time and ensure that they get a leg up on life with as much education as they can handle and maybe even buy them a cheap home so that they don't have to worry about that sort of thing while they're going to college.  Everything else is stupid luxury and often 'bad' for people to have.  It breeds contempt for those who aren't rich.

Maybe that explains a little bit of why passing billions down through the generations is a bad thing for this country.
 
2013-08-10 03:54:22 PM  

Infernalist: RightToWork: Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.

Today was my weekly trip to the grocery store where, as usual, I was the only person in line who actually purchased food with his own money. Tell me again how low-income individuals "pay the same" for their food. Perhaps you aren't aware, but they also frequently qualify for utility assistance.

You poor poor man, being the only person in line who had enough money to pay for his food without governmental assistance.  lol


Your sympathy is appreciated. I suffer from a rare affliction known as working. With SSDI enrollment skyrocketing, a less common disease in the United States than it once was.
 
2013-08-10 03:55:47 PM  

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


If you can afford to denounce your citizenship because you stored millions of dollars in offshore accounts, I am not sure that a $100/month for the healthcare mandate is really going to make that much different.

Besides NC just outlawed Sharia law and everything it encompasses. Wait till they find out that Sharia law strictly bans abortion.
 
2013-08-10 03:56:02 PM  

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes

Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats, living together!  Mass hysteria!  .....can anyone blame these people.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:56:22 PM  

Princess Ryans Knickers: Number of unPatriotic moochers and corporate welfare queens renouncing US citizenship hits record high.


Yeah, 1,000 per year.  That's a reall epidemic all right.

losing 0.00033333333% of our population per year will leave us a desolate wasteland right about the time the sun burns out.
 
2013-08-10 03:58:58 PM  

leadmetal: Infernalist: The Founding Fathers described it as a social contract, where we all put in in order to partake in the comforts of civilized society.

And Ben Franklin had harsh words for those who didn't like paying their taxes while still partaking in society's comforts. He suggested that they get the fark out of America and go live in the wilds of the world.

Which is relevant to my argument exactly how? Am I supposed to consider these people gods or something? Or your interpretation of them correct?

Besides an attempt to invoke authority you are circling back to the services issue. If taxation was on par with services rendered it would make no sense to leave. However taxation exceeds the value of services one gets by a large enough margin, people leave for places where they get a better deal.

That is one of the ideas behind retaining the many states. People and capital would flow to the states which offered a better value while fleeing others that offered a worse value. This works on an international basis as well. The problem is not that people are fleeing, it is that the USA is no longer offering the best value for various people with the means and opportunity to get out.


They're a hell of a lot better than you, farker.  They gave up homes, wealth, titles, lost family and home and just about everything in order to form up a country with no real expectation that it'd work.  So, show them some farking respect, eh?

And if you think rich people have less to lose than poor folk, then you're arrogant 'and' a retard.

But, all of that is irrelevant when you break it right down to is basic facts: You're not an American.  You're just another rich fark who's wanting a better deal.  So, get the fark out and go live in China or Russia or Mexico or wherever you can 'get a better deal'.  You're not wanted, you're not needed.

Parasite.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 04:01:50 PM  

leadmetal: .

The simple fact is that the "services" argument is bullshiat on plain logical basis. Arguing that people are renouncing citizenship to avoid paying for what they use is simply illogical. Trying to convert it into an equally bullshiat social contract argument doesn't help you any. What you are saying with a social contract argument is that by circumstances of birth a person is bound much like a slave or serf would be bound. Except not being bound to a specific master, but bound to an institution of state which supposedly represents the interests of his fellow slaves. We're back to punishing the runaway slave because any slave that runs away means the rest of us have to pick more cotton per person.


Well, people who want to avoid paying taxes on money they made in the US are certainly trying to avoid paying for services they use.  You can't live in the US without benefiting from the protection of the military and police and fire departments and the legal system.

And anyone who lives in the US and doesn't think they should pay taxes is certainly a parasite.
 
2013-08-10 04:02:07 PM  

Infernalist: But, all of that is irrelevant when you break it right down to is basic facts: You're not an American. You're just another rich fark who's wanting a better deal.


Exactly
 
2013-08-10 04:03:10 PM  
ManifestDestiny:

According to whomever it was I spoke with at the embassy, yes. If you renounce and then switch citizenships, you get a 10 year timeout.

Not true. You can just get a tourist visa and visit. I have a good friend who changed citizenship two years ago and he still visits the U.S. multiple times a year. The only thing is that you in theory can get blacklisted if the citizenship changed is deemed to have been purely for tax reasons, but in practice this is never enforced.  No idea what the 10 year limit is, maybe 10 years before you can apply for U.S. citizenship again?
 
2013-08-10 04:03:35 PM  

RightToWork: Infernalist: RightToWork: Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.

Today was my weekly trip to the grocery store where, as usual, I was the only person in line who actually purchased food with his own money. Tell me again how low-income individuals "pay the same" for their food. Perhaps you aren't aware, but they also frequently qualify for utility assistance.

You poor poor man, being the only person in line who had enough money to pay for his food without governmental assistance.  lol

Your sympathy is appreciated. I suffer from a rare affliction known as working. With SSDI enrollment skyrocketing, a less common disease in the United States than it once was.


You are what is wrong with is country. And what is wrong with this species.

The fact that you don't understand that is what will destroy us. Your blithe ignorance merely serves to perpetuate your empty ideals.

I sincerely wish you would die as soon as possible, but the unfortunate truth is that you will probably successfully procreate and spawn an ugly demon cloned from your mind.

God Damn You. Literally and viscerally God Damn You.
 
2013-08-10 04:05:19 PM  

verbal_jizm: vpb: Robo Beat: One caveat: other countries don't necessarily calculate taxes in the same way.  In the US, everything is calculated as a percentage of gross income - X% in federal income taxes, Y% for state income taxes, Z% for local income taxes.  But here in France, for example, my income taxes are calculated as a percentage of the net that remains after they take out the withholdings for social security, medical, retirement, etc.  And that's a lot of money - up to a third of my pre-tax gross income, in fact.  So much so that if I were merely to claim the credit for the income tax I pay to the French government against my US tax liability (instead of the foreign earned income exclusion), I'd fall about $6,000 short on my US tax liabilities.

Now, the income tax scale here ramps up pretty quickly, so that you hit the top bracket with the 41% marginal rate at around 72,000€/year.  So if you're above the Earned Income Tax Credit, I believe you have a fair bit of headroom until you cross the line and start owing US taxes on top of French ones.  Needless to say, I'm not there yet.

The Foreign Earned Income Exemption is $97,600 for 2013.  And it sounds like the taxes in France are lower than I thought.

But as someone described above, if you use the FTC then you may be able to include foreign social security paid.


Not in France.  There's an equalization treaty in place specifically excluding the social security taxes I pay here from any kind of exemption or credit.  But on the other hand, IIRC I don't have to pay into the US social security system, but will still be able to collect on it if and when I retire to the US (assuming I give up my French pension, of course).

And the taxes here are indeed higher than in the States, though perhaps less than you had thought if I understand your post correctly.  Between the 33% off the top for my SS/Medical/retirement contributions and the 19.6% VAT, you feel the pinch.  And like any large organization, the government could be more efficient with the money they get.  But all in all, I feel it's worth it.  Or, put another way, I come a lot closer to getting my money's worth here than when I was living in and paying taxes to the US.
 
2013-08-10 04:05:25 PM  

RightToWork: Infernalist: RightToWork: Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.

Today was my weekly trip to the grocery store where, as usual, I was the only person in line who actually purchased food with his own money. Tell me again how low-income individuals "pay the same" for their food. Perhaps you aren't aware, but they also frequently qualify for utility assistance.

You poor poor man, being the only person in line who had enough money to pay for his food without governmental assistance.  lol

Your sympathy is appreciated. I suffer from a rare affliction known as working. With SSDI enrollment skyrocketing, a less common disease in the United States than it once was.


You poor poor man.  I'll tell you what:  I'll look into getting someone to take your place, like in Trading Places.  You can go live in Section 8/Public Housing and live on welfare and public assistance and Tyrone will step up and take your place and live in your much better home, with your car and job.  Because you're plainly jealous of those Lucky Ducks who get by on food assistance and government help every month.

Retard.
 
2013-08-10 04:06:07 PM  

Yankees Team Gynecologist: leadmetal:

[i39.tinypic.com image 640x75]
In fact I am getting really tired of working well into May just to pay for unthankful indignant
people like yourself and/or those you champion.
[i43.tinypic.com image 640x144]


Ever stop and wonder what goes into determining your gross income?

If we lowered taxes so that you were "done" paying on January 2, do you really think your gross would remain the same?

Go ahead and check out some comps. Test the market. What other countries offer more and charge less?


Do you think that government monopolizing so many services is the only way things can be organized?  Of course you do, you cannot conceptualize anything differently. But for you, I know what men of my profession earned in 1905 or so where I presently live. Now converted by CPI to 2013 dollars that is a considerable increase over my present salary. However, in those barbaric times before all these government services that barbarous relic gold was used for money. In $20 gold pieces,  that becomes a few multiples of my present salary.  Also in those days savings gained buying power instead of lost it. Oh and not only that, back then it was before the income tax too... so I would get to keep it all making it even more on top of my present net salary.

So much for this system of corporate serfdom being a benefit to productive people.
 
2013-08-10 04:06:09 PM  
leadmetal:What you are saying with a social contract argument is that by circumstances of birth a person is bound much like a slave or serf would be bound. Except not being bound to a specific master, but bound to an institution of state which supposedly represents the interests of his fellow slaves. We're back to punishing the runaway slave because any slave that runs away means the rest of us have to pick more cotton per person.


Nope, you're not bound to anything at all.  You're free to go.  Nobody is stopping you.  You go wherever you think is better, and take my blessings and good will with you.  If you don't want to, or are not able to, take on the full responsibilities of a citizen, including paying taxes, then go.  Find your tax free paradise wherever you can.  Send us a postcard.
 
2013-08-10 04:08:59 PM  

vpb: Having another passport is not a requirement and there is no fee. You might have to pay some taxes if you are a high earner or are wealthy, but that's money earned while enjoying the benefits of US citizenship. Finding another country to take you might be a problem but it's not the fault of the USA and doesn't mean you aren't free to go be a stateless person.


Spoken like love it or leave it, ignoring all the practical concerns of the process.

Furthermore, the US federal government doesn't exactly approve the renouncing citizenship with no where to go. They tend not to is my understanding of the process.
 
2013-08-10 04:09:46 PM  

Infernalist: But, all of that is irrelevant when you break it right down to is basic facts: You're not an American. You're just another rich fark who's wanting a better deal. So, get the fark out and go live in China or Russia or Mexico or wherever you can 'get a better deal'. You're not wanted, you're not needed.

Parasite.


And therein lies the flaw with these conservatards: for all their talk about the "free market," they can never come up with a market comp example to back up their claim that personal income taxes are too high here.  Always complaining that this country is overpriced for what they're getting, but never showing what else is available.

They're like Corvette fans, except if no Corvette actually existed.
 
2013-08-10 04:14:57 PM  

jnapier: Hobodeluxe: jnapier: Nyaaa I'll take the Caymans where there are no taxes

 go live there. everything you buy that isn't made there is +25%.  almost +30% for automobiles.
there's 3 hospitals and one MRI machine for all the islands.
and they mandate health insurance for all residents.

Lemme do my math
Someone makes $1M.   The gov takes 39% plus 7.5% SS plus 4.5% ObamaCare plus 5% state
$1M less 56% tax is $460K
Live in Caymens where everything imported is 25% higher. (except some things are a LOT lower, but we will take your ludicrous statement as fact) and we get $750K spending power with no estate tax when I die.

That is of course if I live there 100%.  I could by a house, where they have no residency requirements and go live in, say Anywhere in America I want to.


You don't know how to calculate your taxes. Please don't be an accountant.

Your first $250,000 or so is taxed at a lower rate. Then there's another rate until $500,000 or something like that and then yet another higher rate after that. The 6.2% for SSN is taxed on the first $117,000. After
that, there's no more FICA tax. There is no Obamacare tax. There is Medicare/Medicaid, which is 1.45%, no limit (like FICA). There is also state and SUI/SDI, which varies depending on which state you live in: states with better infrastructure will charge some positive % rate. States with terrible infrastructure may charge nothing.
 
2013-08-10 04:19:12 PM  

leadmetal: Do you think that government monopolizing so many services is the only way things can be organized?


Right off the bat, a strawman--or at best a vague non-statement, since "so many" could mean a lot of things. Great start.

leadmetal: Of course you do, you cannot conceptualize anything differently. But for you, I know what men of my profession earned in 1905 or so where I presently live. Now converted by CPI to 2013 dollars that is a considerable increase over my present salary. However, in those barbaric times before all these government services that barbarous relic gold was used for money. In $20 gold pieces, that becomes a few multiples of my present salary. Also in those days savings gained buying power instead of lost it. Oh and not only that, back then it was before the income tax too... so I would get to keep it all making it even more on top of my present net salary.

So much for this system of corporate serfdom being a benefit to productive people.


So, your comp is the America of 1905--with that economy, that infrastructure, that human rights record, that political system?  That's even funnier than any realistic modern-day answer you could possibly provide.

Keep in mind that's pre-WWI, not just pre-WWII.  If you had gone back to 1955, you MIGHT be able to make a "good old days" argument (at least on behalf of white people) but of course even that wouldn't help your case:

blogs.lclark.edu
 
2013-08-10 04:19:19 PM  

BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]



i651.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-10 04:20:52 PM  
This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.
 
2013-08-10 04:22:58 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?



Yes. Why do you continue to troll? You are absolutely farking terrible at it.
 
2013-08-10 04:24:50 PM  

Infernalist: You poor poor man.  I'll tell you what:  I'll look into getting someone to take your place, like in Trading Places.  You can go live in Section 8/Public Housing and live on welfare and public assistance and Tyrone will step up and take your place and live in your much better home, with your car and job.  Because you're plainly jealous of those Lucky Ducks who get by on food assistance and government help every month.

Retard.


It's not that I'm "jealous" of them. It's that I recognize the potential for serious economic and social problems in a heavily bureaucratized system where low-skilled individuals are systematically incentivized to live on public assistance rather than accept difficult or distasteful employment.
 
2013-08-10 04:26:30 PM  

Infernalist: They're a hell of a lot better than you, farker. They gave up homes, wealth, titles, lost family and home and just about everything in order to form up a country with no real expectation that it'd work. So, show them some farking respect, eh?

And if you think rich people have less to lose than poor folk, then you're arrogant 'and' a retard.

But, all of that is irrelevant when you break it right down to is basic facts: You're not an American. You're just another rich fark who's wanting a better deal. So, get the fark out and go live in China or Russia or Mexico or wherever you can 'get a better deal'. You're not wanted, you're not needed.

Parasite.


Irrational, emotional, and ignorant. The so-called founding fathers were born here by and large if not entirely. Furthermore, if were rich, I might be gone by now. However I am just another serf in this company town, the difference is I see it for what it is. You can keep making nonsense arguments about services and social contracts, but they are ultimately nonsense. It all comes down to the monkey experiment and it appears you're quite the well conditioned monkey.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_the_monkey_banana_and_water_spray_expe ri ment_ever_take_place

FloydA: Nope, you're not bound to anything at all. You're free to go. Nobody is stopping you. You go wherever you think is better, and take my blessings and good will with you. If you don't want to, or are not able to, take on the full responsibilities of a citizen, including paying taxes, then go. Find your tax free paradise wherever you can. Send us a postcard.


If were only so easy. Like I stated earlier, the company town makes sure people like myself don't have the means to leave, the means to buy our freedom. The fact you and others defend the company town make it all the more sad. Can't even see it how company town policy became the system of american government we know today.

vpb: Well, people who want to avoid paying taxes on money they made in the US are certainly trying to avoid paying for services they use. You can't live in the US without benefiting from the protection of the military and police and fire departments and the legal system.

And anyone who lives in the US and doesn't think they should pay taxes is certainly a parasite.


Another illogical argument. A person who renounces citizenship isn't using services in or living in the USA. However folks like you apparently think he should still pay for them because he is what? bound by the circumstances of his birth to pay for them?
 
2013-08-10 04:26:32 PM  

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


8/10! Great day for fishing, you're sure to get nibbles. I'll just sit on the bow and drink all the beer.
 
2013-08-10 04:28:01 PM  

RightToWork: Infernalist: You poor poor man.  I'll tell you what:  I'll look into getting someone to take your place, like in Trading Places.  You can go live in Section 8/Public Housing and live on welfare and public assistance and Tyrone will step up and take your place and live in your much better home, with your car and job.  Because you're plainly jealous of those Lucky Ducks who get by on food assistance and government help every month.

Retard.

It's not that I'm "jealous" of them. It's that I recognize the potential for serious economic and social problems in a heavily bureaucratized system where low-skilled individuals are systematically incentivized to live on public assistance rather than accept difficult or distasteful employment.


So you have no problem with low-skilled individuals who happen to be born into proper circumstances becoming hedge fund managers?
 
2013-08-10 04:29:12 PM  

Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.


No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.
 
2013-08-10 04:30:21 PM  

Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.


Uh, no. You're misinformed and, apparently, to easily distracted to read even a few posts from this thread.
 
2013-08-10 04:32:05 PM  

Yankees Team Gynecologist: And therein lies the flaw with these conservatards: for all their talk about the "free market," they can never come up with a market comp example to back up their claim that personal income taxes are too high here.  Always complaining that this country is overpriced for what they're getting, but never showing what else is available.

They're like Corvette fans, except if no Corvette actually existed.


The silver lining of this recession is it seems to have quieted the Fark Consensus from the 2005-2008 period that Europe was a socially enlightened paradise in which life was a giant vacation shared by all, and public streets unencumbered by vehicles richly flowed with government milk and honey.

No argument from me that the United States, for all its problems, remains the best option out there.
 
2013-08-10 04:34:37 PM  

FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.


No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!
 
2013-08-10 04:37:43 PM  

clancifer: Freeloaders.


I don't know about that. They are living in another country  paying taxes in both countries and if you want to give up your citizenship they slap yo with an exit tax plus they don't even pay back any social security and medicare you may have had to pay into  at some point in your life but won't be able to collect.

I don't think Freeeloaders is the term you are looking for.
 
2013-08-10 04:39:58 PM  

lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!


Considering the top 1% of the country's population controls over 80% of the wealth, I maintain that they're not paying enough in taxes just yet.
 
2013-08-10 04:41:57 PM  

doglover: You still have to pay US tax for 10 years.


Yeah, I hope they hold their breath waiting for that check.

Also, it's not like I'm writing my social security number on my job app in Japan.
Plus, when I was there, they paid us in cash.

When the government makes social security needs based .  (ie you paid in but saved you own money, so you don't get it.)  that number is going to skyrocket.

As for waiting years to get into a nice country all you need is an in demand skill set.
My parachute is New Zealand.  If you have an in demand skill set and a certain amount of money saved to prove you wont be a burden they are very happy to have you over.
Which is our plan if the country goes the way of Detroit.
Or if the world gets all nukie and stuff.

I did the research and inquiries and filled out the forms about a year ago.
Just yesterday I got mail from New Zealand suggesting we come over for 6 months and see if we like living there.

We see ourselves like preppers or survivalists.  Only instead of a bunker in the dirt we have a nice place picks out in Hawks Bay near the beach and a boat.

Here is the list of occupations http://www.immigration.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/063ECB35-F5D5-44D8-8325-7 0 41A727A9D5/0/INZ109311February2013.pdf
I'd guess 80% of the people here qualify.
 
2013-08-10 04:42:29 PM  

lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!


So you don't think the people with nearly all of the money should pay the biggest share of taxes?
 
2013-08-10 04:42:35 PM  
leadmetal:

FloydA: Nope, you're not bound to anything at all. You're free to go. Nobody is stopping you. You go wherever you think is better, and take my blessings and good will with you. If you don't want to, or are not able to, take on the full responsibilities of a citizen, including paying taxes, then go. Find your tax free paradise wherever you can. Send us a postcard.

If were only so easy. Like I stated earlier, the company town makes sure people like myself don't have the means to leave, the means to buy our freedom. The fact you and others defend the company town make it all the more sad. Can't even see it how company town policy became the system of american government we know today.



So... you won't leave because "it's too hard."    You realize that you'd actually have to give up something in order to leave, but you still won't admit that you're getting anything.  You want all the benefits of civilization handed to you on a plate, without having to pay for anything.  (And I bet you have the audacity to use the term "nanny state" too, don't you?)

You mentioned how much better things were 1905 in one of your other posts.  I hope that you haven't been anywhere near New Orleans this year, because in 1905, the city was quarantined due to yellow fever.  Subsequently, thanks to government actions, swamps were drained and bugs sprayed and cities are not closed due to yellow fever anymore.  No individual owned all the swampland, and no business could afford to drain and treat all of it, so no "market-based solution" was possible. You are reveling in the benefit of not dying of preventable illness, thanks to the government.  You might tell yourself that you get nothing of value in exchange for your taxes, but that's nothing more than a comforting self-delusion.

Your tax-free libertarian anarchist paradise would be a hellscape ruled by the biggest bully within a few hours.  That might sound appealing if you believe that you'd be the biggest bully, but in my experience, there is always someone bigger.
 
2013-08-10 04:45:32 PM  
 
2013-08-10 04:45:32 PM  

ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.


From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.
 
2013-08-10 04:45:44 PM  

Infernalist: lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!

Considering the top 1% of the country's population controls over 80% of the wealth, I maintain that they're not paying enough in taxes just yet.


Exactly.  The plutocrats are the ones spending other people's money by gaming the system such that the wealthy get wealthier and the working Joes who actually drive the economy and do all of the work get less of the pie each year.

Between ridiculously low effective corporate tax rates, far too low capital gains taxes, and years of decreasing taxes on the wealthy, the wealthy are paying less a percentage of their income today than ever before even as their total share of wealth has increased.
 
2013-08-10 04:46:27 PM  

Yankees Team Gynecologist: Right off the bat, a strawman--or at best a vague non-statement, since "so many" could mean a lot of things. Great start.


It's to point out there are other ways to do things. You may like having government monopolies on various services but that does not mean they go undone. Government has taken them over one by one, often due to government's previous interventions causing problems.

Yankees Team Gynecologist: So, your comp is the America of 1905--with that economy, that infrastructure, that human rights record, that political system?


The question was how much would I make without modern government services. The answer is more.
Introducing other variables, which are also failures of the state, is simply irrelevant and a distraction to move away from the fact that the question asked did not have the expected answer.

Now you change the terms, so 1951, a time of greatly expanded government services, let's see how that works out. I can only find a rough graph. But using round figures it's still a modest increase over my present salary in 2013 dollars.

Yankees Team Gynecologist: blogs.lclark.edu


Another item of complete irrelevance to the question being answered. It's sad that you have to rely on social technique rather than logic, but the simple fact is your question backfires on you. In a time before government took over all these services, a person of my profession was far better off. Hint: I am no where near rich, just another corporate serf.


Yankees Team Gynecologist: And therein lies the flaw with these conservatards: for all their talk about the "free market,"


Conservatives don't believe in a free market. They are corporatists, just like the american liberals. However they employ the term in their blather much like the liberals employ terms regarding civil rights. It's all just marketing. It doesn't mean anything in a real practical sense.
 
2013-08-10 04:47:31 PM  

verbal_jizm: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

Uh, no. You're misinformed and, apparently, to easily distracted to read even a few posts from this thread.


When it comes to US income taxes, I prefer to believe the opinion of the IRS over that of anonymous FARK users.
 
2013-08-10 04:48:53 PM  

Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.


You were able to look that up and completely miss out on the FTC or the FEIE. Please don't ever become responsible for anyone else's money.
 
2013-08-10 04:51:34 PM  

FloydA: Pumpernickel bread:
Couple of things, first, even with fibbing a little on their tax returns, the wealthy pay far more in taxes than the average person and on average, they receive far fewer government services.

Your first claim, that the wealthy pay far more, is based on a misunderstanding of ratios.  If I'm paying 30% of my income in taxes and Paris Hilton is paying 14% of her income, it is irrelevant that her total contribution is larger than mine; she is being given a benefit that I am not.

Your second claim, that the wealthy receive fewer government services, is patently false.  Roads, bridges, railways, airports, and all of our transportation infrastructure exist largely to allow easy transport of goods from producers to markets.  The wealthy benefit disproportionately from transportation infrastructure.  Police forces and the justice system exist, in large part, to protect property and enforce contracts.  Those who own the most property benefit the most from the existence of our legal and law enforcement system.  FEMA and the National Guard exist, in large part, to protect lives and restore real property in the event of natural disasters.  People who own property benefit from those services, and the more property they own, the more they benefit.

It is popular, among a segment of the population, to assume that "government services" only refers to food stamps and welfare checks, but that is not accurate.


The bottom line is for the big government system to work, we need the wealthy to stick around because they are the ones paying for it all.

Except that, in the US, the middle class are the ones paying for it all.


I understand class envy and resentment for those you perceive as having "more" than you

No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.


To your first point, I misunderstand nothing. You are comparing the long term capital gains tax rate to the income tax rate for upper middle class earner. Hardly the rich vs. poor comparison you were shooting for. Neglected to mention that most of those people paying 30% income tax also own stocks that they will ultimately have to pay the 15% taxon (and I am assuming this includes you).

I would also say your description of "big government" isn't that at all. For the most part, those are basic services any first world govt should provide and I submit to you the U.S. government wouldn't be 17 trillion in the hole (20 if you count the federal reserve balance sheet) if they limited the services they provided to those you listed. Moreover, no one would balk at paying taxes for a govt like that
 
2013-08-10 04:53:46 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: Moreover, no one would balk at paying taxes for a govt like that


Sure you would.
 
2013-08-10 04:57:07 PM  

Infernalist: lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!

Considering the top 1% of the country's population controls over 80% of the wealth, I maintain that they're not paying enough in taxes just yet.


It has been a problem equation for some decades now.  Personally, I am still pissed at the credit default swaps, the Standard and Poor/Moody's AAA shenanigans, and the Fannie/Freddie foolishness from 2005 to 2008.  Not happy at all about that----it's part of what vaulted Obama into office (and I'm not happy about that, either).  Actions have reactions, even in the subjective realms.  What's funny, though, is that even though I may protest a bit, and debate for constraints on taxes, I have continued to pay a large percentage of my earnings to tax requirements.  The "one percent" acted like douchebags with their shenanigans regarding capital manipulation from 2005 to 2008, but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.
 
2013-08-10 05:01:00 PM  

lantawa: but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.


As it should be because they make most of the money. They're still not paying their fair share though.
 
2013-08-10 05:02:18 PM  

lantawa: Infernalist: lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!

Considering the top 1% of the country's population controls over 80% of the wealth, I maintain that they're not paying enough in taxes just yet.

It has been a problem equation for some decades now.  Personally, I am still pissed at the credit default swaps, the Standard and Poor/Moody's AAA shenanigans, and the Fannie/Freddie foolishness from 2005 to 2008.  Not happy at all about that----it's part of what vaulted Obama into office (and I'm not happy about that, either).  Actions have reactions, even in the subjective realms.  What's funny, though, is that even though I may protest a bit, and debate for constraints on taxes, I have continued to pay a large percentage of my earnings to tax requirements.  The "one percent" acted like douchebags with their shenanigans regarding capital manipulation from 2005 to 2008, but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.


Considering that those in the top 1%-20% of the income range are the ones responsible for so many problems in this country by pushing for less corporate and banking regulation (which has lead to many abuses against employees and the economic crisis), by outsourcing jobs and manufacturing to third world countries just to get bigger profits for shareholders, by fighting against unions, by fighting against a higher minimum wage, and by engaging is environmentally destructive business practices that effect the world we all live in, I'm fine with them paying more.  In fact, I'd love to see them pay much, much, much, more than they do.
 
2013-08-10 05:02:25 PM  

FloydA: So... you won't leave because "it's too hard." You realize that you'd actually have to give up something in order to leave, but you still won't admit that you're getting anything.


It's not a matter of too hard. It's a matter that it would cost me a significant amount of savings. Then there are non-economic aspects involved like people. In that regard, as I mentioned earlier, I'd prefer to blow it on expensive cars and expensive women. That's my plan for when things get really bad. I am also considering quitting working when the effective tax rate exceeds 50%. It's closing in on it. I already have a business model for what I would do to get by.

You want all the benefits of civilization handed to you on a plate, without having to pay for anything. (And I bet you have the audacity to use the term "nanny state" too, don't you?)


I am one of the people that builds and maintains civilization. Without people like me you'd be living a hunter-gatherer life style. Oh wait, someone like me came up with the first weapons to hunt with. You'd be a starving gatherer who couldn't find enough berries. Then you'd try to get someone else to beat up a hunter so you could eat. That big bully who got food for you would become your government.
 

You mentioned how much better things were 1905 in one of your other posts. I hope that you haven't been anywhere near New Orleans this year, because in 1905, the city was quarantined due to yellow fever. Subsequently, thanks to government actions, swamps were drained and bugs sprayed and cities are not closed due to yellow fever anymore. No individual owned all the swampland, and no business could afford to drain and treat all of it, so no "market-based solution" was possible. You are reveling in the benefit of not dying of preventable illness, thanks to the government. You might tell yourself that you get nothing of value in exchange for your taxes, but that's nothing more than a comforting self-delusion.

Why do statists continually reply with irrelevancies? The question asked was, what would my compensation be without all these services we know today provided by government. It was an attempt to show that the benefit is greater than the services I actually receive. That is that somehow I receive value for what I pay rather than subsidizing others. The simple calculation shows my compensation with all this modern government is less, thus the question did not turn out as the person asking it had hoped. Introducing other factors is just plain irrelevant nonsense.

BTW Today your government considers those swamps protected wetlands and thus cannot be drained. Live by the state, die by the state.

Your tax-free libertarian anarchist paradise would be a hellscape ruled by the biggest bully within a few hours. That might sound appealing if you believe that you'd be the biggest bully, but in my experience, there is always someone bigger.

So you say it would be little different than now, where we are ruled over by the biggest bully. Ruled by a mafia that demands a cut or else. Oh but today's version has fancy badges and uniforms... I guess that makes it all ok.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngpsJKQR_ZE
 
2013-08-10 05:04:32 PM  
FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


Well you do realize if you are a US citizen living overseas you have to pay the US govt taxes on money you made overseas even though you are living overseas and using none of the US govts services? I don't think any other country's require citizens not still living in them to pay tax on income they made in whatever country they are now living in.
 
2013-08-10 05:06:08 PM  

Oldiron_79: FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Well you do realize if you are a US citizen living overseas you have to pay the US govt taxes on money you made overseas even though you are living overseas and using none of the US govts services? I don't think any other country's require citizens not still living in them to pay tax on income they made in whatever country they are now living in.


Unless you're getting taxed by that other country, in which case you get to deduct that from the taxes you pay to the US.
 
2013-08-10 05:06:14 PM  

verbal_jizm: Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.

You were able to look that up and completely miss out on the FTC or the FEIE. Please don't ever become responsible for anyone else's money.


You have to qualify to both FTC and FEIE.  They both include the text "you MAY be able to qualify UP TO A CERTAIN AMOUNT".  It is not a given, and not your full income.
 
2013-08-10 05:09:28 PM  

Joe Peanut: verbal_jizm: Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.

You were able to look that up and completely miss out on the FTC or the FEIE. Please don't ever become responsible for anyone else's money.

You have to qualify to both FTC and FEIE.  They both include the text "you MAY be able to qualify UP TO A CERTAIN AMOUNT".  It is not a given, and not your full income.


The FEIE applies up to $97000 of your income, the FTC applies beyond that. Seriously, don't ever become an accountant.
 
2013-08-10 05:12:18 PM  

bikkurikun: ManifestDestiny:

According to whomever it was I spoke with at the embassy, yes. If you renounce and then switch citizenships, you get a 10 year timeout.

Not true. You can just get a tourist visa and visit. I have a good friend who changed citizenship two years ago and he still visits the U.S. multiple times a year. The only thing is that you in theory can get blacklisted if the citizenship changed is deemed to have been purely for tax reasons, but in practice this is never enforced.  No idea what the 10 year limit is, maybe 10 years before you can apply for U.S. citizenship again?


There are no restrictions to entering the US other than than those for other non-citizens with your same status in other countries. However, if you spend 30 days in the US in any calendar year for the 10 years after renouncing your citizenship you are taxed as if you were a citizen. In addition, any US investment income is taxed at the lesser of 30% and your marginal rate. Then you have significant taxes that any US persons receiving gifts or bequests for you.
 
2013-08-10 05:17:11 PM  

leadmetal: The question was how much would I make without modern government services. The answer is more.


Doubtful.  Show your work.  Just because you applied an inflation formula to the average income from 1905 in your industry (data that may not even be accurate) doesn't mean you should be making that much today.  Industries and jobs grow and shrink with the times, like phone operators and milkmen.  And America wasn't even really a first-world country in 1905.  If you want lower taxes and at least a 1905-USA standard of living, at least one of the Baltic states would probably suit you.

Do you work in a specific industry that was particularly botched by government intervention and waste?  That seems to be your argument.  And no, don't say "that's all industries."  It would have to be an industry that was especially harmed such that all the gains from the proliferation of infrastructure and government-sponsored technology (like the internet) were erased, and then some.  I can't think of one of the top of my head but I'm open to the possibility that a few exist.
 
2013-08-10 05:18:43 PM  

lantawa: Infernalist: lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!

Considering the top 1% of the country's population controls over 80% of the wealth, I maintain that they're not paying enough in taxes just yet.

It has been a problem equation for some decades now.  Personally, I am still pissed at the credit default swaps, the Standard and Poor/Moody's AAA shenanigans, and the Fannie/Freddie foolishness from 2005 to 2008.  Not happy at all about that----it's part of what vaulted Obama into office (and I'm not happy about that, either).  Actions have reactions, even in the subjective realms.  What's funny, though, is that even though I may protest a bit, and debate for constraints on taxes, I have continued to pay a large percentage of my earnings to tax requirements.  The "one percent" acted like douchebags with their shenanigans regarding capital manipulation from 2005 to 2008, but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.


I don't think 'disproportionate' means what you think it means.

1% of the population controls over 80% of the wealth in the nation and they don't pay 80% of the taxes.

Or do you expect the poorest parts of the population to pay the vast majority of taxes?

This is how I see you:  Three men sitting at a table with a dozen cookies.  The first guy takes 11 cookies and gives one to the other two guys.  The second guy gets mad at the first guy, while the third guy is pissed at the second guy for wanting some of his cookie.

You're the third guy.  You're too busy getting pissed at people in far worse shape than yourself, while ignoring the bloated rich farks who continue to bleed this country dry.

You know, I lived through the Cold War days and I remember a lot of the old Soviet propaganda.  They called capitalists 'leeches' and 'parasites.'  Back then, I was too young to see those as anything more than insults.

Now, I can see why they'd call capitalists leeches and parasites.  They're killing this country.
 
2013-08-10 05:18:54 PM  

verbal_jizm: lantawa: but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.

As it should be because they make most of the money. They're still not paying their fair share though.


I guess that's the big debate....it's all a matter of percentages.

I can tell you something right now, and let's use a round figure of 1 million.

Last year, a capital gain tax of 15% on 1 MIL capital gains would have been $150K.

This year, with a revised 20% capital gains tax, PLUS a 3.8% Obamacare tax, the tax on that same 1MIL capital event is----$238,000.

Does that make you happy?  Will $88,000 EXTRA dollars, beyond last year's tax receipts, on this theoretical one-time capital event of a 1MIL transaction make you happy?

Large capital events that are taxable are a BIG deal to those people who are undergoing the events.  People's retirement plans rest significantly on how much will be TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM in the tax phase of their cash-ins.

I'm thinking that, maybe, yaknow, let's all get beyond the LCD that civil law represents, and let's all start pulling towards a more character-filled and spiritual set of values that involves self-improvement, self-sufficiency, and respect for ourselves and others. You could see your way to that, right?
 
2013-08-10 05:19:44 PM  

Joe Peanut: verbal_jizm: Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.

You were able to look that up and completely miss out on the FTC or the FEIE. Please don't ever become responsible for anyone else's money.

You have to qualify to both FTC and FEIE.  They both include the text "you MAY be able to qualify UP TO A CERTAIN AMOUNT".  It is not a given, and not your full income.


If you are living overseas you will qualify for the FEIE. If you live in a foreign country for a full calendar year and pay taxes there you will qualify under the BFR. If you spend 330 days outside the US in a 12 month period you qualify under the PPT.

Every US resident or citizen is eligible for an FTC for foreign taxes paid. You can claim the lesser of the foreign taxes paid or the US tax on your foreign income. If all your income is in Brazil and you pay higher taxes in Brazil you will have zero US taxes.
 
2013-08-10 05:21:52 PM  
leadmetal: It's not a matter of too hard. It's a matter that it would cost me a significant amount of savings. Then there are non-economic aspects involved like people.

Yep.  You would have to give up the benefits of living in a civilized society, and that would be hard.  To actually make it work, you'd have to do something, rather than just posting on the (government created) internet about how rugged and individualistic you are.  You claim to be John Galt, but as soon as someone points at the door, you refuse to walk through.  You're a manly man, one of the strong and powerful creators of society who provides food for the poor wretched "takers" like me, but you can't bear the thought of actually striking out on your own.  Typical libertarian; lots of talk, but not much action.

Why do statists continually reply with irrelevancies? The question asked was, what would my compensation be without all these services we know today provided by government. It was an attempt to show that the benefit is greater than the services I actually receive. That is that somehow I receive value for what I pay rather than subsidizing others. The simple calculation shows my compensation with all this modern government is less, thus the question did not turn out as the person asking it had hoped. Introducing other factors is just plain irrelevant nonsense.

One of those "services" that you take for granted is disease control.  If you consider not being dead of yellow fever to be an insufficient benefit, then you and I just have very, very different perspectives about life.
 
2013-08-10 05:26:24 PM  
So you are giving up your citizenship? Where do you run to?

"Not too long ago two friends of mine were talking to a Cuban refugee, a businessman who had escaped from Castro, and in the midst of his story one of my friends turned to the other and said, "We don't know how lucky we are." And the Cuban stopped and said, "How lucky you are! I had someplace to escape to." In that sentence he told us the entire story. If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth. "
-- Ronald Reagan

I know, I know some are going to ay x, y and z countries have more freedom but you would have been lying, particular on issues like free speech, privacy and gun rights etc, and No, I don't consider a bunch of free stuff from a cradle to grave welfare state part of being free. You are just free of some of the burdens of freedom-self responsibility and self reliance. Without those burdens you are not really free just more reliant on the generosity of politicians with other people's money.

So having decided to leave the America that could have been where to go knowing that for the most part they are the never was or will be? You could stay knowing that the US will be like the rest of them, perhaps in your lifetime. You can't pick a low tax low services state to live in because the heavy had of the Federal government still reaches in. So no it is time for you to leave but where to go?

Many of the so called good places have pretty strict immigration laws, that would shock our open borders progressives, these may include: have a marketable skill their country needs, already having a job waiting for you when get there, money to live on for x amount time, money for plane ticket back, pass a medical screening, pass a background check, private health insurance (yes they may have socialized medicine but some countries.require new arrivals to have private insurance coverage for x amount of time) Forget about voting (not that we Americans have had much of a choice lately). Many communities and regions are like living with a hyper HOA probably necessary given the cramped urban living of many destinations you might choose from.

If you can get pass the restrictions their are many countries to chose from. Australia and New Zealand of course come to mind. I lean toward Iceland-kind of like Volcanoes but jobs opportunities are not great. Also think about Singapore.

FYI Australia is offering relaxed immigration rules for EX US military with certain skills they need mostly Navy submarine types-worth looking into if you are willing to serve in the Australian Military-whic is a professional group IMHO.

I have written off Central and South America has my time down South says nice place to visit but.....


So where do you run to?

YO have basically decided to give up liviing in a place that had so much potential but is failing for place
 
2013-08-10 05:26:28 PM  

RightToWork: Yankees Team Gynecologist: And therein lies the flaw with these conservatards: for all their talk about the "free market," they can never come up with a market comp example to back up their claim that personal income taxes are too high here.  Always complaining that this country is overpriced for what they're getting, but never showing what else is available.

They're like Corvette fans, except if no Corvette actually existed.

The silver lining of this recession is it seems to have quieted the Fark Consensus from the 2005-2008 period that Europe was a socially enlightened paradise in which life was a giant vacation shared by all, and public streets unencumbered by vehicles richly flowed with government milk and honey.

No argument from me that the United States, for all its problems, remains the best option out there.



This.

Talk to someone from another country that came here because there were more opportunities to keep your own money.  I know plenty of Canadian / French / Belgian folks to have no equivocations expounding on why the USA is great for taxes.  Belgian guy was complaining about 50% tax rate.
 
2013-08-10 05:29:38 PM  

Infernalist: You know, I lived through the Cold War days and I remember a lot of the old Soviet propaganda.  They called capitalists 'leeches' and 'parasites.'  Back then, I was too young to see those as anything more than insults.

Now, I can see why they'd call capitalists leeches and parasites.  They're killing this country.


Heya, sport. Let's look at the paragraph from the article that I linked. Here it is: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Read that, Infernalist, and, truly, CHOKE ON IT. I also lived through the Cold War times, and I learned and KNOW that communists are the ratlike filth of the world, colluding with and scheming with the nihilists, apocalyptists, and other fringe rodents of the philosophical night that sometimes deign to pretend that they have anything of value to contribute to the lives of men and women.
 
2013-08-10 05:29:44 PM  

lantawa: verbal_jizm: lantawa: but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.

As it should be because they make most of the money. They're still not paying their fair share though.

I guess that's the big debate....it's all a matter of percentages.

I can tell you something right now, and let's use a round figure of 1 million.

Last year, a capital gain tax of 15% on 1 MIL capital gains would have been $150K.

This year, with a revised 20% capital gains tax, PLUS a 3.8% Obamacare tax, the tax on that same 1MIL capital event is----$238,000.

Does that make you happy?  Will $88,000 EXTRA dollars, beyond last year's tax receipts, on this theoretical one-time capital event of a 1MIL transaction make you happy?

Large capital events that are taxable are a BIG deal to those people who are undergoing the events.  People's retirement plans rest significantly on how much will be TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM in the tax phase of their cash-ins.

I'm thinking that, maybe, yaknow, let's all get beyond the LCD that civil law represents, and let's all start pulling towards a more character-filled and spiritual set of values that involves self-improvement, self-sufficiency, and respect for ourselves and others. You could see your way to that, right?


I'd be happy if capital gains were taxed at the same rate as regular income (with no deductions) which would make the tax bill for that $1,000,000 capital gains profit approximately $361,000 with our current brackets

I'd rather see the top bracket at closer to 50% than the current 39.6% though.
 
2013-08-10 05:32:18 PM  
Give them credit, at least they are actually "leaving the country".  Unlike so many who have threatened to do so if so and so is elected, yet here they still are.
 
2013-08-10 05:35:20 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: lantawa: verbal_jizm: lantawa: but the fact remains that the overall taxes paid are paid disproportionately by the higher-earning citizens of this country.

As it should be because they make most of the money. They're still not paying their fair share though.

I guess that's the big debate....it's all a matter of percentages.

I can tell you something right now, and let's use a round figure of 1 million.

Last year, a capital gain tax of 15% on 1 MIL capital gains would have been $150K.

This year, with a revised 20% capital gains tax, PLUS a 3.8% Obamacare tax, the tax on that same 1MIL capital event is----$238,000.

Does that make you happy?  Will $88,000 EXTRA dollars, beyond last year's tax receipts, on this theoretical one-time capital event of a 1MIL transaction make you happy?

Large capital events that are taxable are a BIG deal to those people who are undergoing the events.  People's retirement plans rest significantly on how much will be TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM in the tax phase of their cash-ins.

I'm thinking that, maybe, yaknow, let's all get beyond the LCD that civil law represents, and let's all start pulling towards a more character-filled and spiritual set of values that involves self-improvement, self-sufficiency, and respect for ourselves and others. You could see your way to that, right?

I'd be happy if capital gains were taxed at the same rate as regular income (with no deductions) which would make the tax bill for that $1,000,000 capital gains profit approximately $361,000 with our current brackets

I'd rather see the top bracket at closer to 50% than the current 39.6% though.


When going through the brackets, there's going to be some room for negotiation, always.  I get that.  I think that you're a touch high on what would make you happy, but I'm not losing sleep over the current ratios that are in place.  I'm not rich, so a lot of this stuff does not bug me too much, but every now and then I see that I'm paying X number of thousands more under a Democratic Pres than I would probably be paying under a Repub, and I get a tad clutchy with my money.  Only human, I guess.
 
2013-08-10 05:36:48 PM  

lantawa: Infernalist: You know, I lived through the Cold War days and I remember a lot of the old Soviet propaganda.  They called capitalists 'leeches' and 'parasites.'  Back then, I was too young to see those as anything more than insults.

Now, I can see why they'd call capitalists leeches and parasites.  They're killing this country.

Heya, sport. Let's look at the paragraph from the article that I linked. Here it is: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Read that, Infernalist, and, truly, CHOKE ON IT. I also lived through the Cold War times, and I learned and KNOW that communists are the ratlike filth of the world, colluding with and scheming with the nihilists, apocalyptists, and other fringe rodents of the philosophical night that sometimes deign to pretend that they have anything of value to contribute to the lives of men and women.


And they hate paying every single last penny of those taxes.  They spend thousands of dollars a year, paying men to find any and every way that they can find to get out of paying those taxes.  They break laws, they bribe Congressmen for new loopholes and clauses to get out of paying those taxes.  They store money in off-shore accounts to avoid paying taxes, they hide it in shell corporations and generally 'hate' paying back into this country that made their wealth possible.

And for all those taxes that they do pay, THEY AREN'T PAYING ENOUGH.  They control the vast majority of wealth in this country and work hard to increase that 80+%, they do whatever they can to move that wealth from the bottom up to the top.  And once they get it, they sit on it and make stupid noises about 'trickle down theory.'

So, with all that said, let me repeat myself: Capitalists are parasites and leeches that are killing this country.  This thread is based on an article talking about how rich people are increasingly fleeing the country in order to avoid paying those taxes that they owe.  They're not Americans, they're rich farks who just want to find the best place to live where they can pay the least possible in taxes.  They're the typical 'noble class' that flees every country when the poor finally have enough and rise up to tear them down.
 
2013-08-10 05:41:25 PM  
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
This string of dollar signs represents the number of people who  became US citizens last year.

$
This string of dollar signs rerepsents the number of people who renounced their US citizenship last year (an all time high)

I think we'll be OK.
 
2013-08-10 05:43:50 PM  

ayenull: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Yes. Why do you continue to troll? You are absolutely farking terrible at it.


Troll? What's there to troll?

The link above to a blog post which cites a WSJ online post vindicates my position on Obama's economic policies in regard to discouraging private market job growth.

Some of y'all Farklibs have a funny definition of "trolling."
 
2013-08-10 05:46:26 PM  

Fizpez: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
This string of dollar signs represents the number of people who  became US citizens last year.

$
This string of dollar signs rerepsents the number of people who renounced their US citizenship last year (an all time high)

I think we'll be OK.


So do I, but your numbers are meaningless. Not all citizens pay the same amount of taxes and it's well known that the rich pay far more in taxes than lower income citizens.
 
2013-08-10 05:52:09 PM  

Aristocles: Fizpez: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
This string of dollar signs represents the number of people who  became US citizens last year.

$
This string of dollar signs rerepsents the number of people who renounced their US citizenship last year (an all time high)

I think we'll be OK.

So do I, but your numbers are meaningless. Not all citizens pay the same amount of taxes and it's well known that the rich pay far more in taxes than lower income citizens.


Actually most of the people renouncing have never paid any US taxes - and pretty much ALL of the ones becoming US citizens will pay some.  As has been AMPLY described in the thread "normal" people living and working overseas have plenty of ways to avoid paying twice on the same income - theyll figure out the new laws.  People who have lived their entire life outside the US but have a US passport because their mom or dad was an American 50 years ago will probably renounce - they've never filed US taxes and arent about to start now.  Nothing is really lost as I am sure they're happy living where they do.

I'd be happy if they fixed the tax code so 500 companies didnt all have "headquarters" in the same building in the Cayman Islands or some other tax dodge - this legal change is just so individuals can't pull the same shiat.
 
2013-08-10 05:52:59 PM  

Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.


^^^^See people, this is why we don't let brothers and sisters fark.

Here you go buddy.
Tax guide for U.S citizens and resident aliens living abroad


You may be able to exclude up to $95,100 ofyour foreign earned income in 2012. You cannot exclude more than the smaller of $95,000 or Your foreign earned income (discussed earlier) for the tax year minus your foreign housing exclusion (discussed later). If both you and your spouse work abroad and each of you meets either the bona fide residence test or the physical presence test, you can each choose the foreign earned income exclusion. You do not both need to meet the same test. Together, you and your spouse can exclude as much as $190,20

You can take either a credit or a deduction for income taxes paid to a foreign country or a U.S. possession. Taken as a deduction, foreign income taxes reduce your taxable income. Taken as a credit, foreign income taxes reduce your tax liability.



So basically if you make under 97k(it was raised from 95k), you don't have to pay U.S taxes. If you make over that and pay taxes in a foreign country, those taxes you paid there will offset the U.S taxes, and in most cases since the U.S has the lowest tax rates in the world, you won't be paying any U.S taxes.


So the scenario you dreamed up earlier won't happen unless the person is a complete moron, kinda like yourself.
 
2013-08-10 05:53:55 PM  

Infernalist: And they hate paying every single last penny of those taxes. They spend thousands of dollars a year, paying men to find any and every way that they can find to get out of paying those taxes. They break laws, they bribe Congressmen for new loopholes and clauses to get out of paying those taxes. They store money in off-shore accounts to avoid paying taxes, they hide it in shell corporations and generally 'hate' paying back into this country that made their wealth possible.


As is their wont which is perfectly legal.

Infernalist: And for all those taxes that they do pay, THEY AREN'T PAYING ENOUGH. They control the vast majority of wealth in this country and work hard to increase that 80+%, they do whatever they can to move that wealth from the bottom up to the top. And once they get it, they sit on it and make stupid noises about 'trickle down theory.'


You're assuming, incorrectly I might add, that ours is a zero-sum economy. Not true. One can be prosperous without it coming at the expense of someone else's well-being. In fact, the more prosperity the better.

Infernalist: So, with all that said, let me repeat myself: Capitalists are parasites and leeches that are killing this country. This thread is based on an article talking about how rich people are increasingly fleeing the country in order to avoid paying those taxes that they owe. They're not Americans, they're rich farks who just want to find the best place to live where they can pay the least possible in taxes. They're the typical 'noble class' that flees every country when the poor finally have enough and rise up to tear them down.


Pardon? Are you referring to the college kids, hippies and anarchists of OWS who stood around in a park while the rest of us worked or looked for jobs?

The poor are hardly the reason that rich folks seek to live in locations where they won't be molested by burdensome taxes. Rather, it's the government.
 
2013-08-10 05:56:46 PM  

ongbok: Joe Peanut: ongbok: Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.

No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.

From our good old friend in the IRS:  http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens- a nd-Resident-Aliens-Abroad

Quote:  If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad. Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside.

^^^^See people, this is why we don't let brothers and sisters fark.

Here you go buddy.
Tax guide for U.S citizens and resident aliens living abroad


You may be able to exclude up to $95,100 ofyour foreign earned income in 2012. You cannot exclude more than the smaller of $95,000 or Your foreign earned income (discussed earlier) for the tax year minus your foreign housing exclusion (discussed later). If both you and your spouse work abroad and each of you meets either the bona fide residence test or the physical presence test, you can each choose the foreign earned income exclusion. You do not both need to meet the same test. Together, you and your spouse can exclude as much as $190,20

You can take either a credit or a deduction for income taxes paid to a foreign country or a U.S. possession. Taken as a deduction, foreign income taxes reduce your taxable income. Taken as a credit, foreign incom ...


But even above the 97000 they can use the FTC.
 
2013-08-10 06:01:58 PM  

Fizpez: Aristocles: Fizpez: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
This string of dollar signs represents the number of people who  became US citizens last year.

$
This string of dollar signs rerepsents the number of people who renounced their US citizenship last year (an all time high)

I think we'll be OK.

So do I, but your numbers are meaningless. Not all citizens pay the same amount of taxes and it's well known that the rich pay far more in taxes than lower income citizens.

Actually most of the people renouncing have never paid any US taxes - and pretty much ALL of the ones becoming US citizens will pay some.  As has been AMPLY described in the thread "normal" people living and working overseas have plenty of ways to avoid paying twice on the same income - theyll figure out the new laws.  People who have lived their entire life outside the US but have a US passport because their mom or dad was an American 50 years ago will probably renounce - they've never filed US taxes and arent about to start now.  Nothing is really lost as I am sure they're happy living where they do.

I'd be happy if they fixed the tax code so 500 companies didnt all have "headquarters" in the same building in the Cayman Islands or some other tax dodge - this legal change is just so individuals can't pull the same shiat.


Granted, but that doesn't change the truth of my comment. Additionally, I'll say that, while some of the new citizens might pay taxes, it's also true that many will still have their share of the tax burden covered by the rich, this might be due to welfare programs they're on, because they are dependents, because their tax bracket is low, etc.
 
2013-08-10 06:11:42 PM  
All I could say to those people leaving the country and renouncing citizenship:  Good riddance.
 
2013-08-10 06:21:16 PM  

FloydA: So... you won't leave because "it's too hard." You realize that you'd actually have to give up something in order to leave, but you still won't admit that you're getting anything. You want all the benefits of civilization handed to you on a plate, without having to pay for anything. (And I bet you have the audacity to use the term "nanny state" too, don't you?)




But what if we are simply being overcharged for those services that are being provided? Combined Federal State and local revenue collections is somewhere around $5 trillion.

We spend more per student on education than any other country (over $800 billion) in the world but what do we get for it? citation

This year we will spend (combined State and Federal) about $1 trillion dollars on mean tested welfare programs, second highest area of government spending (behind Social/Security/MEDICARE and ahead of Defense) and the fastest growing area of spending but what do we get for it? citation

The same goes for Defense(Which at least has something to show in return for dollars spent even with the waste and fraud), transportation, foreign affair etc. etc.

Looks that the stimulus spending -$800 billion shot to hell and still few or no infrastructure improvements or shovel ready jobs.

Green energy jobs-$26 billion for less that 3000 permanent jobs at over $11 million per job.citation

I don't mind paying taxes for roads schools, sanitation, emergency services etc. but don't try blowing smoke up our asses telling us we are getting our monies worth and should be wiling to pay more. Or that if we complain about it we are dreaming of Somalian Utopia I don't want to pay taxes so the Navy has more Admirals than it has ships or so that "socially aware" puppet show can get funded in Philadelphia or so that toll both worker can draw a six figure salary or that the new President of the University of California system can earn $600,000 or that a retired San Francisco civil servant can earn $300,000. my local police force does not need MRAPS or drones.

Government does not need more of our money and in fact can probably do a better job with a lot less.
 
2013-08-10 06:21:53 PM  

Infernalist: lantawa: Infernalist: You know, I lived through the Cold War days and I remember a lot of the old Soviet propaganda.  They called capitalists 'leeches' and 'parasites.'  Back then, I was too young to see those as anything more than insults.

Now, I can see why they'd call capitalists leeches and parasites.  They're killing this country.

Heya, sport. Let's look at the paragraph from the article that I linked. Here it is: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Read that, Infernalist, and, truly, CHOKE ON IT. I also lived through the Cold War times, and I learned and KNOW that communists are the ratlike filth of the world, colluding with and scheming with the nihilists, apocalyptists, and other fringe rodents of the philosophical night that sometimes deign to pretend that they have anything of value to contribute to the lives of men and women.

And they hate paying every single last penny of those taxes.  They spend thousands of dollars a year, paying men to find any and every way that they can find to get out of paying those taxes.  They break laws, they bribe Congressmen for new loopholes and clauses to get out of paying those taxes.  They store money in off-shore accounts to avoid paying taxes, they hide it in shell corporations and generally 'hate' paying back into this country that made their wealth possible.

And for all those taxes that they do pay, THEY AREN'T PAYING ENOUGH.  They control the vast majority of wealth in this country and work hard to increase that 80+%, they do whatever they can to move that wealth from the bottom up to the top.  And once they get it, they sit on it and make stupid noises about 'trickle down theory.'

So, with all that said, let me repeat myself: ...


So, you're jealous, disgruntled, and generally unhappy.  Oh, and disenfranchised too.  Let's not forget that, of course.  Okay.  I get it.  I've acknowledged that things aren't perfect and that I'm aggravated at malfeasance and misfeasance on the part of the wealthy.  Do you not see ANY misdeeds by the underclass and middle-class in this economy.  There is a VAST black market that operates under the IRS radar, and it consists of a large majority mix of black-market and illegal/illicit drug goods.  Let's see you opine on those phenomenon for awhile.  Let's see you opine on the explosion of children born to unwed mothers.  Let's see you opine on the grave lack of spirituality that is in place in the U.S. today.  Show us your concern, pilgrim.  Show it.  To us.
 
2013-08-10 06:26:27 PM  

Infernalist: 1% of the population controls over 80% of the wealth in the nation and they don't pay 80% of the taxes.


The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Owns 40 Percent Of The Nation's Wealth:

thinkprogress.org

i.imgur.com

Seems pretty even.. Might be a little off kilter for the top 5%.
 
2013-08-10 06:29:22 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?
 
2013-08-10 06:30:32 PM  

Southern100: Infernalist: 1% of the population controls over 80% of the wealth in the nation and they don't pay 80% of the taxes.

The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Owns 40 Percent Of The Nation's Wealth:

[thinkprogress.org image 277x336]

[i.imgur.com image 470x442]

Seems pretty even.. Might be a little off kilter for the top 5%.


Nice....
 
2013-08-10 06:35:24 PM  

burning_bridge: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?


Get the bottom 50% to act like they had some brains and some sense?  Maybe take some personal responsibility?   I dunno.........
 
2013-08-10 06:38:40 PM  
You only have to pay US taxes if you make more than 90,000$ a year.

Otherwise, you just have to file your country of residence's tax receipts to prove you paid there, and then you don't pay the IRS.

And if you make MORE than 90,000$ a year, fark you. You can afford a percentage off that.

//I still think it's absurd to have to pay taxes to a country you don't live in.
///But I also think it's absurd to biatch about having to have less of what you have, when you already have more than anyone else.
 
2013-08-10 06:42:54 PM  

lantawa: burning_bridge: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?

Get the bottom 50% to act like they had some brains and some sense?  Maybe take some personal responsibility?   I dunno.........


Of course. Poor people are only poor becomes they're dumb and irresponsible. The only reason.
 
2013-08-10 06:46:21 PM  

lantawa: burning_bridge: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?

Get the bottom 50% to act like they had some brains and some sense?  Maybe take some personal responsibility?   I dunno.........


Most people I know in that bottom 50% are the hardest working people I know.  Most people I've come across who like to lecture others about "personal responsibility" are the most lazy, entitled, silver-spooned, arrogant, cry-baby fools I've ever met.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 06:48:46 PM  
leadmetal:
Spoken like love it or leave it, ignoring all the practical concerns of the process.

Furthermore, the US federal government doesn't exactly approve the renouncing citizenship with no where to go. They tend not to is my understanding of the process.


No, spoken like someone who thinks that we don't have an obligation to protect you from the consequences of your poor decisions or cater to your sense of entitlement.
.
If US citizenship is the best deal you can get and yet you aren't happy with it, well too bad.  I don't care, it's you're problem so you solve it.
 
2013-08-10 06:48:50 PM  

lantawa: So, you're jealous, disgruntled, and generally unhappy.  Oh, and disenfranchised too.  Let's not forget that, of course.  Okay.  I get it.  I've acknowledged that things aren't perfect and that I'm aggravated at malfeasance and misfeasance on the part of the wealthy.  Do you not see ANY misdeeds by the underclass and middle-class in this economy.  There is a VAST black market that operates under the IRS radar, and it consists of a large majority mix of black-market and illegal/illicit drug goods.  Let's see you opine on those phenomenon for awhile.  Let's see you opine on the explosion of children born to unwed mothers.  Let's see you opine on the grave lack of spirituality that is in place in the U.S. today.  Show us your concern, pilgrim.  Show it.  To us.


Don't forget the massive and widespread fraud taking place via the explosion in Social Security Disability Insurance enrollment while progressives just look on, smile, and nod approvingly. The percentage of our population in the program has doubled over the past decade, and virtually all of the increase is due to medically unverifiable "musculoskeletal" and "anxiety" disorders. Once you are on SSDI, you have it for life with free medical care and no payroll taxes withdrawn. Unlike the reformed TANF system, SSDI discourages enrollees from returning to work through strong financial disincentives. The damage this plain abuse is doing to our workforce, class divisions, and public trust is incalculable, yet we're supposed to just turn a blind eye because these people are poor and therefore have a license to deceive and steal.
 
2013-08-10 06:50:45 PM  
Man, the Farklib trolls are really stinkin up this thread.

Well, despite that fact, I think we've established that the rich, job creators are Galting because of Obama's oppressive regulations and hostility toward the free market and, therefore, hostility to the American way.
 
2013-08-10 07:11:13 PM  

RightToWork: lantawa: So, you're jealous, disgruntled, and generally unhappy.  Oh, and disenfranchised too.  Let's not forget that, of course.  Okay.  I get it.  I've acknowledged that things aren't perfect and that I'm aggravated at malfeasance and misfeasance on the part of the wealthy.  Do you not see ANY misdeeds by the underclass and middle-class in this economy.  There is a VAST black market that operates under the IRS radar, and it consists of a large majority mix of black-market and illegal/illicit drug goods.  Let's see you opine on those phenomenon for awhile.  Let's see you opine on the explosion of children born to unwed mothers.  Let's see you opine on the grave lack of spirituality that is in place in the U.S. today.  Show us your concern, pilgrim.  Show it.  To us.

Don't forget the massive and widespread fraud taking place via the explosion in Social Security Disability Insurance enrollment while progressives just look on, smile, and nod approvingly. The percentage of our population in the program has doubled over the past decade, and virtually all of the increase is due to medically unverifiable "musculoskeletal" and "anxiety" disorders. Once you are on SSDI, you have it for life with free medical care and no payroll taxes withdrawn. Unlike the reformed TANF system, SSDI discourages enrollees from returning to work through strong financial disincentives. The damage this plain abuse is doing to our workforce, class divisions, and public trust is incalculable, yet we're supposed to just turn a blind eye because these people are poor and therefore have a license to deceive and steal.


Massive? Really? I'm going to guess you completely discount what big financials did with the derivative market though, even though it led to orders of magnitude more drain on our economy and society in general.
 
2013-08-10 07:11:55 PM  

Aristocles: Man, the Farklib trolls are really stinkin up this thread.

Well, despite that fact, I think we've established that the rich, job creators are Galting because of Obama's oppressive regulations and hostility toward the free market and, therefore, hostility to the American way.


Heh. A troll calling out "trolls". Cute.
 
2013-08-10 07:16:28 PM  

ModernLuddite: You only have to pay US taxes if you make more than 90,000$ a year.

Otherwise, you just have to file your country of residence's tax receipts to prove you paid there, and then you don't pay the IRS.

And if you make MORE than 90,000$ a year, fark you. You can afford a percentage off that.

//I still think it's absurd to have to pay taxes to a country you don't live in.
///But I also think it's absurd to biatch about having to have less of what you have, when you already have more than anyone else.



The real irony is that the wealthy can afford a couple hundred bucks here and there for a great accountant.  These are not the people waving to the Liberty Puppet as the drive into the HR block.

There are plenty of legal ways to move wealth around to reduce your tax burden.
 
2013-08-10 07:20:16 PM  

Aristocles: job creators are Galting


Hey, guys look! Someone actually believes that "Going Galt" is a real thing, or that other people won't step up and take their places in American society!

31.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-08-10 07:54:09 PM  

verbal_jizm: Massive? Really? I'm going to guess you completely discount what big financials did with the derivative market though, even though it led to orders of magnitude more drain on our economy and society in general.


Yes, it is massive in both scope and amount. Over 11 million working-age Americans are now on the SSDI program, and the number continues to grow at an exponential rate. A trivial amount of them are actually so disabled they can't work, and caring for them is very expensive, threatening to crash the entire Social Security system if something isn't done soon to contain costs. Beyond the direct costs, the SSDI trend encourages sloth, deception, seclusion, and mental and physical breakdown through inactivity. This "new welfare" is a major problem - one progressive-types seem more than happy to deny or ignore.

I'm not "discounting" anything. The financial collapse is a completely separate topic,  and a quite complicated one at that. Is the only way you can respond to this issue by changing the subject to evil rich bankers, corporations, and so on? If so, you're proving my point that progressives are giving the poor people committing this fraud a pass and veritable license to steal simply because they're poor. I'm certainly not on here saying mortgage fraud is okay - by all means, investigate and throw anyone who committed such frauds in jail.
 
2013-08-10 08:01:37 PM  

brantgoose: I know Japan has low taxes compared to the US.

Some considerations:

People will always look on you as a curiosity.

They haven't accepted Chinese and Korean immigrants after 600 years of residence.

Your taxes are low, but the mortgage on your closet sized apartment will take three to four generations to pay off.

You may have to wear surgical masks to breathe.

You may have to pay $100 for a watermelon, or a three ounce Kobo beef "steak", just because it is disgustingly fatty.

You will have to learn Japanese.

You may be beaten up by left wing or far right wing protestors wearing body armor and helmets.

They kill whales every though they have thousands of tons of whale meat on ice that not even the Japanese want to eat.

About three quarters of the country is sacred forest, so your very costly paper comes from Brazil and the population of Canada is crowded into urban Tokyo (and that of California into Metro Tokyo).


There's also the public transportation to consider.
 
2013-08-10 08:10:27 PM  

leadmetal: Hobodeluxe: that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites

If people were paying for the services they use, then there is no need for government services, only market services. People would not be leaving if they only paid for what they used. The fact is government is required to make people pay for services -other- people use. So what you're voicing displeasure about is that the people paying the taxes to subsidize things you want to use but not pay for (or only pay a reduced price for) have decided to leave and not subsidize you any longer. So who is the parasite?


Interestingly enough... Corporate giveaways in the U.S. more than doubles entitlement programs for the poorest among us. Considering that many of these companies make billions in profits and actually receive a tax benefit, the guinea worm in the room shouldn't be too hard to find.
 
2013-08-10 08:15:05 PM  

verbal_jizm: lantawa: burning_bridge: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?

Get the bottom 50% to act like they had some brains and some sense?  Maybe take some personal responsibility?   I dunno.........

Of course. Poor people are only poor becomes they're dumb and irresponsible. The only reason.


And, far more than the middle-class or the upper classes, poor people are, literally, mistakes rather than planned children.  It's funny how our mistakes come back to haunt us, isn't it.  Like I said, personal responsibility, common sense, and for fark's sake, someone REALLY TEACH the poor some shiat, okay?  Personal accounting and banking should be mandatory courses, every year, from grade school all the way to collegiate studies. We have an enormous number of financial retards in this country who have been TAUGHT to be retards, FFS.
 
2013-08-10 08:16:08 PM  

FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?


I suppose it is because he is better than us. Look at this horse, it is amazing.

www3.pictures.zimbio.com
 
2013-08-10 08:18:42 PM  

burning_bridge: lantawa: burning_bridge: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Yeah.  What can we do to help expedite the process?

Get the bottom 50% to act like they had some brains and some sense?  Maybe take some personal responsibility?   I dunno.........

Most people I know in that bottom 50% are the hardest working people I know.  Most people I've come across who like to lecture others about "personal responsibility" are the most lazy, entitled, silver-spooned, arrogant, cry-baby fools I've ever met.


That's not been my experience....but nice insult!  You've done well, per Fark standards....
 
2013-08-10 08:33:20 PM  

iheartscotch: RandomAxe: iheartscotch: You'd have to do it in the more "bootstrappy" states; because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

/ one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard

LOL. It's not regulations and greedy bureaucrats who have driven up the medallion cost in NYC. It's greedy millionaire cab medallion owners. A medallion is very expensive but typically returns about 5-7% in gains per year on the original investment while also gaining value. Rich people compete over things like that and have no desire to let new players into that game.

You can google this example pretty easily. And, in fact, it's pretty typical. Giant corporations have the money for new start-up locations and don't want small businesses horning in, so they lobby to have regulations established that crush smaller competitors. Government regulations are the tool, not the enemy.

So greedy that they cost themselves extra money? It is still a part of the regulation. What possible harm would it entail to lower the price to $100,000?


Yes, because it's cheaper than losing business to the competition. Let's say your widget company pulls in $5 million/year. There are only two other widget sellers who also pull in about the same, so widgets are a roughly $15 million/year industry. New widget owner wants to set up shop, which would bring in a fourth player. If the sales end up splitting evenly, that will reduce your profits by $1.5 million/year. HOWEVER, you could make the cost of doing business more expensive by a couple hundred thousand dollars. It'd knock out the fourth guy, and you've just saved $1.3 million.

Meanwhile, you can collude with your two "competitors" to keep prices at a set rate while not technically remaining a monopoly. It works so long as you don't get caught, and laws regarding that sort of thing are really so laughable that it's really not the end of the world if you do get caught. Real regulation (not crap passed by corporations) is actually needed to prevent this sort of behavior.
 
2013-08-10 08:38:58 PM  

RightToWork: verbal_jizm: Massive? Really? I'm going to guess you completely discount what big financials did with the derivative market though, even though it led to orders of magnitude more drain on our economy and society in general.

Yes, it is massive in both scope and amount. Over 11 million working-age Americans are now on the SSDI program, and the number continues to grow at an exponential rate. A trivial amount of them are actually so disabled they can't work, and caring for them is very expensive, threatening to crash the entire Social Security system if something isn't done soon to contain costs. Beyond the direct costs, the SSDI trend encourages sloth, deception, seclusion, and mental and physical breakdown through inactivity. This "new welfare" is a major problem - one progressive-types seem more than happy to deny or ignore.

I'm not "discounting" anything. The financial collapse is a completely separate topic,  and a quite complicated one at that. Is the only way you can respond to this issue by changing the subject to evil rich bankers, corporations, and so on? If so, you're proving my point that progressives are giving the poor people committing this fraud a pass and veritable license to steal simply because they're poor. I'm certainly not on here saying mortgage fraud is okay - by all means, investigate and throw anyone who committed such frauds in jail.


What is the percentage of that 11 million that are estimated to be on SSDI fraudulently. More than 10-12%? Just curious. I don't discount that the entitlement complex that people can get can be a corrosive thing, particularly for those that have survived off of government programs for generations, and if a program leads to more fraud than legitimate claims then it certainly needs to be reformed ... by someone who actually wants the program to succeed. However, if I were looking to prioritize the types of malfeasance that have the most destabilizing effect on society in the industrialized world it would be that of the financial institutions gambling with our economy and socializing the risk.
 
2013-08-10 09:18:33 PM  
The US/Australia agreement for US citizens living Downunder is that the Aussie gov't gets its income tax at the normal rates then for US taxes, you subtract a figure ($78,000 or so), and then you get your standard deductions.  You then use that as an income level and you calculate your taxes on that and if it is higher than what was paid to Oz, you have to pay the difference to the IRS.  This is also complicated by deductions that work in the US that don't work elsewhere like home mortgage deductions or overseas housing expenses and the alternate minimum taxes come into play as well.

There is the question of taxes most people deal with via IRS like income tax and then there are other taxes like social security and now the health fund taxes.  Was talking with the head of the Aussie Tax office department who dealt with international tax agreements.  The US-Australia agreement now covers about 80,000 pages of documents and no one in his department knows even most of the details.  The general rule is the Aussie government would prefer to get 1st pick of the tax its citizens working in the US would pay than the Americans working here since it has a problem that its millionaires tend to set up businesses in the US.

A friend got a high paying job with Google in the US and Google pays their accounting firm to provide these guys advice on international taxes.  He asked how much that service would cost the next year and the answer was "more than you make in a year"
 
2013-08-10 09:47:30 PM  

DON.MAC: A friend got a high paying job with Google in the US and Google pays their accounting firm to provide these guys advice on international taxes.  He asked how much that service would cost the next year and the answer was "more than you make in a year"


As a person that works in an accounting firm performing these services that was more than a little overstated or he is getting pretty pathetic pay. Assuming he has fairly normal taxes it probably doesn't cost Google much more than $5,000, certainly not more than $10,000.
 
2013-08-10 09:50:32 PM  
How does this correlate to the amount of tea in the harbor?
 
2013-08-10 09:52:14 PM  

verbal_jizm: What is the percentage of that 11 million that are estimated to be on SSDI fraudulently. More than 10-12%? Just curious. I don't discount that the entitlement complex that people can get can be a corrosive thing, particularly for those that have survived off of government programs for generations, and if a program leads to more fraud than legitimate claims then it certainly needs to be reformed ... by someone who actually wants the program to succeed. However, if I were looking to prioritize the types of malfeasance that have the most destabilizing effect on society in the industrialized world it ...


There is no way to know for sure how many of them are fraudulent, but since the number and percentage on SSDI has more than doubled over the past decade, and the overwhelming majority of these cases are for highly questionable "disabilities" like back pain and anxiety, I'm going to go with "most of them." This American Life and EconTalk did specials on the topic a year or two ago if you're interested. Both programs implied there are plenty of fakers out there, but pointed to lax eligibility requirements as a culprit as well. One contributing factor is nobody represents the public/government in appeal hearings, so applicants denied on their first application are almost always successful on appeal. Where everyone seems to agree is that SSDI is functioning as a new, souped-up welfare program for those who have trouble finding work, except all the important limitations of unemployment and TANF don't apply.
 
2013-08-10 10:59:30 PM  

hasty ambush: But what if we are simply being overcharged for those services that are being provided? Combined Federal State and local revenue collections is somewhere around $5 trillion.

We spend more per student on education than any other country (over $800 billion) in the world but what do we get for it? citation

This year we will spend (combined State and Federal) about $1 trillion dollars on mean tested welfare programs, second highest area of government spending (behind Social/Security/MEDICARE and ahead of Defense) and the fastest growing area of spending but what do we get for it? citation

The same goes for Defense(Which at least has something to show in return for dollars spent even with the waste and fraud), transportation, foreign affair etc. etc.

Looks that the stimulus spending -$800 billion shot to hell and still few or no infrastructure improvements or shovel ready jobs.

Green energy jobs-$26 billion for less that 3000 permanent jobs at over $11 million per job.citation

I don't mind paying taxes for roads schools, sanitation, emergency services etc. but don't try blowing smoke up our asses telling us we are getting our monies worth and should be wiling to pay more. Or that if we complain about it we are dreaming of Somalian Utopia I don't want to pay taxes so the Navy has more Admirals than it has ships or so that "socially aware" puppet show can get funded in Philadelphia or so that toll both worker can draw a six figure salary or that the new President of the University of California system can earn $600,000 or that a retired San Francisco civil servant can earn $300,000. my local police force does not need MRAPS or drones.

Government does not need more of our money and in fact can probably do a better job with a lot less.



If you want to argue that the government could spend money more wisely, you'll get no argument from me.  I agree with you.  There are lots of programs that could and should be cut.  We can debate and discuss about which particulat expenditures are "necessary" and which are "wasteful," and I expect that some good could come of that discussion if we all enter into it with honest intentions.

Personally, I don't think that you and I are getting our money's worth.  I think that Paris Hilton and Mitt Romney and others of their ilk have been getting a free ride on my and your money.  I agree with you about the problem, although we may have different ideas about the cause.

But my argument is not with you.  It's with the people who conclude that, since money is being spent on things they don't like, they shouldn't have to pay taxes at all, and should move to another country, but continue to get the benefits of being a US citizen without paying for them.  Those people are parasites.  If they want to get out without paying for the US to continue to function, I'm OK with them leaving.  But in exchange, they forego ALL of the benefits of being a US citizen.  Pay and play or don't pay and GTFO.  That seems fair to me.

Am I wrong?
 
2013-08-10 11:08:28 PM  

Hobodeluxe: leadmetal: Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.

that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites


Funny, I would rather keep the money I pay the government to give to some poor soul so they can get that plasma screen, so I can give it to a poor person that can't afford shoes. That is a parasite?
 
2013-08-10 11:11:57 PM  

Hobodeluxe: Deep Contact: Someone has to pay for Obummers vacations.

[thenevadaview.com image 700x843]


Cheaper at the ranch.
 
2013-08-10 11:58:25 PM  
pedrop357

Why do you hate America?
 
2013-08-10 11:58:54 PM  

dywed88: As a person that works in an accounting firm performing these services that was more than a little overstated or he is getting pretty pathetic pay. Assuming he has fairly normal taxes it probably doesn't cost Google much more than $5,000, certainly not more than $10,000.


Google is doing this for many employees and it is done by a major accounting firm with a dedicated team so their total bill for this is not going to be cheap.

The problem is to be sure of everything in a tax return is an impossible job.  As an example, an Aussie programmer making $200k in the USA (so clearly above the threshold) a year but you have stock in a company in North America that makes glass and you get a dividend.  That is taxed at a different rate if they sell glass into Australia.  The rate also changes depending on the type of glass and there are categories like float glass or car glass or glass for picture frames.  And if it was car glass, then it matters if that profit was before or after the tax threshold on the goods changed from 22% to 11% or 0%.  You can throw in exchange rate on the day for added fun.  The IRS also must be informed if you happen to be involved in the committee of a club that has more than $10k going through it s bank account.  I don't think you can get proper advice on all the issues that may apply for $5k.
 
2013-08-11 12:34:23 AM  

DON.MAC: Google is doing this for many employees and it is done by a major accounting firm with a dedicated team so their total bill for this is not going to be cheap.


Ok. I thought you were referring to one person. It will almost certainly be well into the seven figures

DON.MAC: The problem is to be sure of everything in a tax return is an impossible job.  As an example, an Aussie programmer making $200k in the USA (so clearly above the threshold) a year but you have stock in a company in North America that makes glass and you get a dividend.  That is taxed at a different rate if they sell glass into Australia.  The rate also changes depending on the type of glass and there are categories like float glass or car glass or glass for picture frames.  And if it was car glass, then it matters if that profit was before or after the tax threshold on the goods changed from 22% to 11% or 0%.  You can throw in exchange rate on the day for added fun.  The IRS also must be informed if you happen to be involved in the committee of a club that has more than $10k going through it s bank account.  I don't think you can get proper advice on all the issues that may apply for $5k.


Like I said, I do that for a living working at a Big 4 accounting firm. I don't work with Google, but I work on that stuff for other companies. I don't do Aussie stuff, but I do both Canadian and U.S interviews and returns.

You couldn't get the advice and returns for $5k, but Google putting hundreds of employees through can easily get those kinds of rates. For a major company getting bulk rates, US federal return, one state return, FBAR (I don't know about Google, but a lot of companies don't cover FBARs), one foreign return and entrance and exit interviews for a regular person with primarily employment income and a some investments would probably run around $5k. The vast majority of the people that Google hires will have fairly simple returns and will offset the fewer more complicated ones (and the really crazy ones will likely have additional fees).
 
2013-08-11 01:20:44 AM  

ManifestDestiny: Coming on a Bicycle: ManifestDestiny: flucto: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.

I'll be sure to tell my stepmother. I'm sure she would be thrilled to hear that her pinko liberal space muffin step-daughter has seen the light.

Bar you from entering the US? Even on a tourist visa?

According to whomever it was I spoke with at the embassy, yes. If you renounce and then switch citizenships, you get a 10 year timeout.


what's your tax rate like? from what I understand you only get tax if you make over USD $93K and can deduct an addtional 30% of the FEIE in Foreign Housing Allowance.
As to the 10 yr travel ban I've never heard of it.
 
2013-08-11 01:36:56 AM  

FloydA: badhatharry: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

Well, since you are serious. You are paying income tax on wages earned. Mitt is paying capital gains tax on returns on investments.  Mitt would pay 30% if he earned a wage at a job. You would pay about 14% if you cashed out your 401K.

Southern100:

If you made more than 50% of your "income" from Capital Gains, you wouldn't have a 30% tax rate either.

That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.


I'm aware of the mechanisms.  I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income.  I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

(I know the actual reason is that rich people write the laws, I was asking for someone to tell me the "rationalization" that makes those laws acceptable to about half of the voters.)


I think the simplest answer to that is when the law was crafted, the justification is that there is an inherent risk to investment unlike a regular straight salary. Thereotically speaking, Romney's investments has the potential to return %0 thereby giving him 0 income (straight math) whereas your salary is consistent.

Think of it this way. who would you tax more (percentage wise)? someone who consistently makes $100 everyday or someone who may make $100 today or may make $5 tomorrow?

The actual amount Romney or (billionaire of choice) has in the bank or investment vehicle is immaterial.

Its one of those things that can be both fair or unfair depending on how you look at things.
 
2013-08-11 01:55:25 AM  

RandomRandom: xxdangerbobxx: What services are those you farking retard? I haven't lived in the states for years, I only go (irregularly) to see family and the IRS wants me to pay taxes every year? For what? Your wars? Preventing abortions? Making sure only white people can vote if at all possible? Are you retarded?

Are you? Or are you just living in a tax haven?

If you're living outside the US, the foreign tax credit stipulates that any taxes paid overseas offset any US taxes owed.  So unless you're living in some low-tax or no-tax haven, you shouldn't owe much, if anything.

You're telling me that if your current place of residence turned to shiat tomorrow you wouldn't pack up and head back to the good ole' USA?  Your passport is a fallback.  If having a fallback isn't important to you, then give back the passport and live a happy life overseas.


I live in the UK. Should it make a difference if I lived in the Canary Islands or another tax haven? If I have nothing to do with the US, I don't live there, I don't work there, have any of my stuff there or go there. Why should I be paying taxes there?
 
2013-08-11 02:01:44 AM  

Infernalist: filter: fark all you haters! I have lived abroad 8 years. Why the hell do I need to file US taxes? Do you file state taxes in all 50 states?

Didn't think so.


I don't think any other country forces nonresidents to file.

I pay an assload of tax living in socialist Europe- FWIW.

Cry moar.


What a worthless response.
 
2013-08-11 02:03:43 AM  

FloydA: filter: fark all you haters! I have lived abroad 8 years. Why the hell do I need to file US taxes?

You don't.  Renounce your US citizenship.  Nobody is trying to stop you.


You are so farking stupid it's unreal. Should he be a stateless person then if he doesn't have dual citizenship somewhere else? And all over not wanting to pay taxes for somewhere he doesn't live or have lived in almost a decade.

You're pathetic.
 
2013-08-11 02:06:44 AM  

SuperNinjaToad: what's your tax rate like? from what I understand you only get tax if you make over USD $93K and can deduct an addtional 30% of the FEIE in Foreign Housing Allowance.
As to the 10 yr travel ban I've never heard of it.


The housing allowance is quite limited. The exclusion is only available for taxable employer provided housing benefits and the deduction if paid out of self-employment earnings. Neither apply to costs of purchasing a home. The maximum amount that can be claimed is 30% of the FEIE limit or the city specific amount for the city you are living in, less 16% of the FEIE limit. For someone in most developed countries, you should be claiming an FTC.

There are no legal travel restrictions (it is possible it could be looked at on any visa application, though) beyond those for anyone in the country you became a citizen/resident of. However, if the expatriation regime applies to you, meaning you are a citizen or greencard holder that had your greencard during 8 of the past 15 years and meet one of the following
- Average income over the past five years of $155,000 (inflation adjusted)
- Total assets over $2,000,000
- Do not certify that you were fully compliant for the previous 5 years

If you meet these criteria and you are present for more than 30 days in any year (there is a limited exception for employment up to 60 days) you are taxed as a citizen.
 
2013-08-11 02:16:54 AM  
Ever notice all these "celeb" hollywood types living off shore?  Madonna, Pitt, Moore and the like?
THESE are the once renouncing their citizenship.  They've lived overseas because they say it's
because "they are out of the spotlight for the sake of their families".  Yeah, it's about TAXES.
They don't like paying any more than anyone else, but they have the resources to escape it.
Now, the government is going after them in other countries, so they just say screw it and leave
permanently.  But, they come back here and make movies, release music, and we are stupid
enough to continue to support them.
 
2013-08-11 02:32:17 AM  

p51d007: Ever notice all these "celeb" hollywood types living off shore?  Madonna, Pitt, Moore and the like?
THESE are the once renouncing their citizenship.  They've lived overseas because they say it's
because "they are out of the spotlight for the sake of their families".  Yeah, it's about TAXES.
They don't like paying any more than anyone else, but they have the resources to escape it.
Now, the government is going after them in other countries, so they just say screw it and leave
permanently.  But, they come back here and make movies, release music, and we are stupid
enough to continue to support them.


Most major entertainers wouldn't even consider it. They would be hit hard by expatriation tax and they want to be able to travel freely to the US, where most of their income is earned.

The people renouncing citizenship will primarily be dual citizens permanently living abroad with no intention of returning the the US. Most will be not particularly wealthy.
 
2013-08-11 02:36:15 AM  

p51d007: Ever notice all these "celeb" hollywood types living off shore?  Madonna, Pitt, Moore and the like?
THESE are the once renouncing their citizenship.  They've lived overseas because they say it's
because "they are out of the spotlight for the sake of their families".  Yeah, it's about TAXES.
They don't like paying any more than anyone else, but they have the resources to escape it.
Now, the government is going after them in other countries, so they just say screw it and leave
permanently.   But, they come back here and make movies, release music, and we are stupid
enough to continue to support them.


What are you still supporting if they've dropped their citizenship and just come back to release a whatever? That's similar to a tourist. Tourists don't COST countries money you big dummy.
 
2013-08-11 02:48:50 AM  

xxdangerbobxx: p51d007: Ever notice all these "celeb" hollywood types living off shore?  Madonna, Pitt, Moore and the like?
THESE are the once renouncing their citizenship.  They've lived overseas because they say it's
because "they are out of the spotlight for the sake of their families".  Yeah, it's about TAXES.
They don't like paying any more than anyone else, but they have the resources to escape it.
Now, the government is going after them in other countries, so they just say screw it and leave
permanently.   But, they come back here and make movies, release music, and we are stupid
enough to continue to support them.

What are you still supporting if they've dropped their citizenship and just come back to release a whatever? That's similar to a tourist. Tourists don't COST countries money you big dummy.


Also, they will pay taxes in the US for the work they do in the US.
 
2013-08-11 03:33:49 AM  

dywed88: Like I said, I do that for a living working at a Big 4 accounting firm. I don't work with Google, but I work on that stuff for other companies. I don't do Aussie stuff, but I do both Canadian and U.S interviews and returns.


From what I can tell, the US/Canada stuff is easier compared to US/Other countries.  The Aussie/UK pension stuff is easy because of the number of people who have to cope with both.  Get into US/third world and your only hope is to have a quiet agreement with the local officials and make sure everyone gets paid.

A guy at the ATO told me that he had heard about a case where someone overstated their income to the IRS so they wouldn't have anything to chase him about and they investigated him under the guise of overstating the income was a violation of a US treaty and effectively limited tax he paid to some other country.  That story was told at a bar after a few drinks so who knows if it true.  Then again comments about being "Caponed" are increasing.
 
2013-08-11 03:58:34 AM  

DON.MAC: From what I can tell, the US/Canada stuff is easier compared to US/Other countries.


Not really. The biggest complication is that you have a non-calendar tax year. But having experience with Canada-UK and Canada-Australia it isn't that bad and you can even use the taxes paid method in the US instead of calculating estimates and proration and can take advantage of extensions to avoid filing amended returns. You may need more information filings for retirement plans and the like that aren't covered under the treaty but Canadian equivalents are, but those would not be covered under the typical relocation package. There are more people affected by Canada-US so there are more experienced practitioners, but US-Aus is not uncommon.

Also keep in mind that all the calculations and such will be done electronically. So things like different tax rates on different forms of income are pretty irrelevant (if I input long and short term capital gains into a return, the computer automatically calculates the correct tax on them and runs the appropriate FTC calculations.

DON.MAC: A guy at the ATO told me that he had heard about a case where someone overstated their income to the IRS so they wouldn't have anything to chase him about and they investigated him under the guise of overstating the income was a violation of a US treaty and effectively limited tax he paid to some other country.


The issue is that FTCs are the lesser of, the foreign taxes you paid or the domestic taxes on the foreign source income. The latter is calculated by dividing foreign source income by domestic source income and multiplying by domestic taxes payable (it can get more complicated, but that is the basic idea). So, if you overstate your income one country, you mess up the ratio and/or pay extra taxes and can end up allocating extra taxes to that country. Needless to say the country getting shorted would not be happy.

For someone not familiar with the rules it gets pretty complicated quite quickly and in certain situations it does get crazy, but most cases aren't that bad for someone familiar with cross-border tax unless you are talking executives and other rich people.
 
2013-08-11 04:29:30 AM  

RightToWork: Don't forget the massive and widespread fraud taking place via the explosion in Social Security Disability Insurance enrollment while progressives just look on, smile, and nod approvingly. The percentage of our population in the program has doubled over the past decade, and virtually all of the increase is due to medically unverifiable "musculoskeletal" and "anxiety" disorders. Once you are on SSDI, you have it for life with free medical care and no payroll taxes withdrawn. Unlike the reformed TANF system, SSDI discourages enrollees from returning to work through strong financial disincentives. The damage this plain abuse is doing to our workforce, class divisions, and public trust is incalculable, yet we're supposed to just turn a blind eye because these people are poor and therefore have a license to deceive and steal.


OK, first of all, nice handle. It's almost like you created this account specifically to say things like this.

Anyway, I find it amazing that you see 95% of the problem with SSI, but completely fail to see the cause. SSI is a secret unemployment number. Sure, there are some people who are legitimately disabled, and there are some people who are just gaming the system. The vast majority of people on SSI, though, are collecting literally ones of thousands of dollars per year because THEY CAN'T GET A GODDAMNED JOB. Get some f*cking decent jobs in this country and you'd see a whole lot of disabled people have miraculous recoveries--nobody wants to live on $13k when they could get a job and make $20k.

You're right in your assertion that SSI strongly discourages people from ever getting a job once they're on it. You could say the same thing about TANF and SNAP. You can lay this directly at the feet of Republicans. Any right-thinking American should realize that if you pro-rate these benefits so it doesn't cost money to get a job, more people would actually go get jobs if they were available. Unfortunately, there are too many outraged conservatives convinced that Shaniquas are out there driving Cadillacs and eating skrimps and lobsters for dinner every night on their dime, so we have to punish poor people for being poor.
 
2013-08-11 05:41:01 AM  

TopoGigo: Anyway, I find it amazing that you see 95% of the problem with SSI, but completely fail to see the cause. SSI is a secret unemployment number. Sure, there are some people who are legitimately disabled, and there are some people who are just gaming the system. The vast majority of people on SSI, though, are collecting literally ones of thousands of dollars per year because THEY CAN'T GET A GODDAMNED JOB. Get some f*cking decent jobs in this country and you'd see a whole lot of disabled people have miraculous recoveries--nobody wants to live on $13k when they could get a job and make $20k.


So much farking THIS.

SSI, and the similar programs that it covers are defintely worse off compared to work.  That said, about the only way to get the private sector to budge seems to be by making it a royal pain to not hire(directly, full-time, and for the long-term).  Employers would rather use every trick in the book to avoid hiring(guest or illegal worker abuse), or do so in bad faith(such as the rampant use of 29er/49er/permatemp/agency employment).  Once employers have to actually compete for workers (for lack of ways to avoid hiring them), things can get better.

~$1200/mo is not pleasant by any means, especially with all the paperwork and documentation involved - it is almost a job in itself.  In my case, I'd rather deal with tax forms(1040 + W-2, no 1099/agency employment tax forms) as a result of having a good employer(which I've had) than the bureaucracy involved in maintaining benefits.
 
2013-08-11 05:43:16 AM  

dr-shotgun: a drug enforcement policy that costs $50B a year with no real benefits


Maybe no real benefits to you...
 
2013-08-11 06:28:59 AM  

FloydA: Personally, I don't think that you and I are getting our money's worth. I think that Paris Hilton and Mitt Romney and others of their ilk have been getting a free ride on my and your money. I agree with you about the problem, although we may have different ideas about the cause.


I don't know about Paris Hilton's taxes but a guy who paid $3 million in taxes and gave another $4 million to charity is not getting  a free ride regardless of income. Giving what government does with our money more power and praises to anybody who can legally lower his or her tax burden.   Those getting the free ride  are the millions who not only pay no taxes but get extra money from the rest of us in the form of things like EITC or business that  get subsidies that exceed their taxes and loans  they don't have to pay back.
 
2013-08-11 10:30:55 AM  
There are other considerations beside taxation that will influence a decision to renounce citizenship. For example, a person's adopted country may prohibit dual nationality. While much of the time such laws are ignored by dual-nationals, occasionally a fish or cut bait situation arises that will force such a person to make a decision.

For example, Canada does not collect taxes from non-resident Canadians.Thirty years ago, and I do not know if this situation exists today, an Austrian-born Canadian, i.e., a dual-national, living in Austria, could not obtain certain old-age benefits if they held a second nationality. It was fairly common at the embassy to process renunciation of Canadian citizenship by elderly Austrians. They were at a stage in their lives when, from a practical viewpoint, they needed to maximize the extensive benefits paid by the Austrian government, and unlikely to reside in Canada for the remainder of their life.
 
2013-08-11 10:32:48 PM  

iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.


How about raising them to reasonable levels then? And then, any that still want to pike out and renounce their citizenship should be allowed to go. But permanently.
 
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