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(TaxProf)   Number of taxpayers who renounced U.S. citizenship hits record high. And that's not even counting Edward Snowden   ( taxprof.typepad.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, U.S. Citizenship, hit records, U.S.  
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8159 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Aug 2013 at 1:40 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



353 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2013-08-10 12:27:51 PM  
momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-08-10 01:04:26 PM  

BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]


You can probably hear me rolling my eyes from here.
 
2013-08-10 01:20:36 PM  
Freeloaders.
 
2013-08-10 01:22:28 PM  
Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.
 
2013-08-10 01:23:43 PM  
The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.
 
2013-08-10 01:30:41 PM  
So, just a bunch of takers.
 
2013-08-10 01:42:10 PM  
This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?
 
2013-08-10 01:43:48 PM  

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


THIS times infinity!
 
2013-08-10 01:45:09 PM  

propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.


If you mean the government, then I agree.

People who've lived overseas for years are forced to deal with the IRS and US tax system in a manner that citizens of other countries do not.  How many other countries tax the income of expatriates and nonresidents the way the US does?
 
2013-08-10 01:45:16 PM  
So, corporation executives are actually moving to the Cayman Islands now?
 
2013-08-10 01:45:19 PM  
NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.
 
2013-08-10 01:45:33 PM  
Just curious, how many are (true) millionaires or billionaires and how many are (not rich) expatriates who have settled abroad?
 
2013-08-10 01:45:59 PM  
Bunch of quitters. I'm not leaving until I have to sneak out.
 
2013-08-10 01:46:19 PM  
www.legendsofamerica.com
 
2013-08-10 01:46:41 PM  
www.hogdb.com
 
2013-08-10 01:47:04 PM  

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


Those same laws also apply to people who've lived in other countries for years and haven't even set foot in the US in years.  Foreign banks are choosing to simply not allow US residents to open accounts rather than deal with the US government or breach the privacy of their members.

There is more than one side to an issue.  You would do well to learn that.
 
2013-08-10 01:47:05 PM  
This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.
 
2013-08-10 01:47:13 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


fark 'em. So no, no questions.
 
2013-08-10 01:47:20 PM  
If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.
 
2013-08-10 01:47:44 PM  
I remember reading an article that the USA is the only major nation to tax all offshore income regardless of permanent residence.  I had to pay US taxes even though I lived abroad for nearly 300 days 4 years ago.  Sucked.
 
2013-08-10 01:48:03 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Yeah, which grade school did you drop out of?
 
2013-08-10 01:48:08 PM  

iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.


So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?
 
2013-08-10 01:49:01 PM  

BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]


You masturbate over a blatant work of fiction which ignores the basics of human nature and whose entire universe depends on a perpetual energy deus ex machina that violates every known law of physics?
 
2013-08-10 01:50:05 PM  

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


Benghazi  is still ok, right?
 
2013-08-10 01:50:36 PM  

MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?


Millionaire? Good luck opening a business.
 
2013-08-10 01:50:40 PM  

ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.


At least those countries don't tax you even though haven't been in their borders for a year or more.
 
2013-08-10 01:51:28 PM  
The US does not charge very much in personal income taxes.  Bunch of whiny babies.
 
2013-08-10 01:51:32 PM  

panfried: violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.

Benghazi  is still ok, right?


www.aguywalksinto365bars.com
 
2013-08-10 01:53:06 PM  
DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.

Not sure if ser-

Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country,

Oh, that clears that up, then. Congratulations on the Poe.
 
2013-08-10 01:53:06 PM  

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


you should leave too. want help buying a ticket?
 
2013-08-10 01:53:53 PM  
Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.
 
2013-08-10 01:54:10 PM  

hardinparamedic: BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]

You masturbate over a blatant work of fiction which ignores the basics of human nature and whose entire universe depends on a perpetual energy deus ex machina that violates every known law of physics?


Hell, when you put it like that you're basically describing every porno I've ever seen.
 
2013-08-10 01:54:27 PM  
Dunno if we'll renounce citizenship yet, but me and the SO are heading out soon. We're not rich.
 
2013-08-10 01:54:30 PM  

MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?


there's always someone willing to take their place and pay the taxes on the money they make.
 
2013-08-10 01:54:31 PM  

MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?


At this point; I'm willing to consider the possibility of creating new millionaires. You'd have to do it in the more "bootstrappy" states; because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

/ one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard
 
2013-08-10 01:54:57 PM  

hardinparamedic: panfried: violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.

Benghazi  is still ok, right?

[www.aguywalksinto365bars.com image 504x486]


A properly choked chicken neither speaks nor smokes!
 
2013-08-10 01:56:21 PM  

iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.


bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.
 
2013-08-10 01:56:43 PM  
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-08-10 01:57:47 PM  
All the other derp aside, the article says nothing about whether this is a proportional increase and offers no evidence that taxes, per se, even have anything to do with it. A lot of ex-pats have unrelated reasons for giving up their US citizenship.

But if there simply are more US citizens living abroad in a given year, and the same proportion of them as usual give up their citizenships, then you'd see this kind of spike. There wouldn't even have to be any 'cause' behind the statistical shift. And we're not talking huge numbers, here.

So basically, the article is speculation (and not much of it) based on a statistical spike that may not contain any additional information at all. There's no reason to believe that taxes have anything to do with the increase.

/ probably they do have a little to do with it
// I'm in the So GO, Then, And Who Cares camp
 
2013-08-10 01:57:50 PM  

iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.


Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.
 
2013-08-10 01:59:06 PM  

ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.


Nyaaa I'll take the Caymans where there are no taxes and a flight to the US is $300.

The point being, that the people WITH money can avoid higher taxes, it squeezes the middleclass, not the rich.
 
2013-08-10 01:59:18 PM  
The funny thing is that, according to law, you can only renounce your citizenship outside the US, at a foreign embassy or consulate.
 
2013-08-10 01:59:45 PM  
When I pay taxes, I think of it more like I'm giving foreign aid. So, foreign aid's alright.  Taxes suck.  Therefore, I don't pay taxes, I donate to foreign aid.  Much better feel to it.....
 
2013-08-10 01:59:52 PM  

DubyaHater: abortions at an all time high,


I'm sure that is the reason someone would renounce their citizenship.
 
2013-08-10 02:00:16 PM  

pedrop357: propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.

If you mean the government, then I agree.

People who've lived overseas for years are forced to deal with the IRS and US tax system in a manner that citizens of other countries do not.  How many other countries tax the income of expatriates and nonresidents the way the US does?


So, GTFO.
 
2013-08-10 02:01:07 PM  

Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.


This is why people are leaving now.
 
2013-08-10 02:02:17 PM  

RandomAxe: All the other derp aside, the article says nothing about whether this is a proportional increase and offers no evidence that taxes, per se, even have anything to do with it. A lot of ex-pats have unrelated reasons for giving up their US citizenship.

But if there simply are more US citizens living abroad in a given year, and the same proportion of them as usual give up their citizenships, then you'd see this kind of spike. There wouldn't even have to be any 'cause' behind the statistical shift. And we're not talking huge numbers, here.

So basically, the article is speculation (and not much of it) based on a statistical spike that may not contain any additional information at all. There's no reason to believe that taxes have anything to do with the increase.


There are a series of new reporting laws that are taking affect one by one. Basically, if you're making burger-flipper wages or above in your foreign country of residence, that will now give the US the right to examine ALL of the banking records you have in that country in minute detail. Every transaction.
 
2013-08-10 02:02:31 PM  

pedrop357: ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.

At least those countries don't tax you even though haven't been in their borders for a year or more.


Yeah, this.  I'll be paying taxes in both Canada and the US this year, and every year, because I make more than 80K.  I've always said I'd never renounce my citizenship, but I gotta say it's tempting now.
 
2013-08-10 02:02:53 PM  
Some of the people who are renouncing their citizenship are not high wealth individuals.  They are doing it for tax reasons but mostly because their ignorance of American tax law has resulted in them losing their savings through back taxes and large penalties.  I have sympathy for them unlike the 1-percenters who are just trying to maximize return.
 
2013-08-10 02:03:00 PM  
iheartscotch: You'd have to do it in the more "bootstrappy" states; because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

/ one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard


LOL. It's not regulations and greedy bureaucrats who have driven up the medallion cost in NYC. It's greedy millionaire cab medallion owners. A medallion is very expensive but typically returns about 5-7% in gains per year on the original investment while also gaining value. Rich people compete over things like that and have no desire to let new players into that game.

You can google this example pretty easily. And, in fact, it's pretty typical. Giant corporations have the money for new start-up locations and don't want small businesses horning in, so they lobby to have regulations established that crush smaller competitors. Government regulations are the tool, not the enemy.
 
2013-08-10 02:03:12 PM  
To the Norwegian bride - no, there is a tax treaty between the US and Norway. You get a tax credit and based upon Norway's tax rates you'd essentially only pay tax on investment income in the United States. There are some minor complicating factors for structuring your finances (such as whether a Roth IRA is better than a regular IRA) but it's really not that difficult. I think my accountant charged $1,000 a year when I was living overseas. Yes it's annoying, but it's a lot less than what you could make my working given that Norwegian wages are so much higher, and once they've done it once you can probably just do the forms yourself the next year. Or you can do what you're doing now, and just assume the problem is way too difficult to ever solve.
 
2013-08-10 02:03:29 PM  

Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.


I like this.  Soon we will have to start border patrols to keep the wealthy from leaving.
The new Obama America.  Illegal immigrant, no problem, common in we got lots.

Retiring worker who paid in to everything.  Nope, you cant leave (you have illegals to care for)
How did that work in East Germany again?
 
2013-08-10 02:03:51 PM  
Someone has to pay for Obummers vacations.
 
2013-08-10 02:03:53 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.
 
2013-08-10 02:04:48 PM  

propasaurus: So, GTFO.


That's not the only option. The system can and should be changed.
 
2013-08-10 02:05:02 PM  

badhatharry: Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.

This is why people are leaving now.


There is a financial reniuncement fee already, but i'm not sure how much it is. Also, and this is nuts, one can renounce, burn their passport, become a citizen of another country, and the us gov claims rights to your income for ten years after.
 
2013-08-10 02:05:20 PM  

jnapier: Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.

I like this.  Soon we will have to start border patrols to keep the wealthy from leaving.
The new Obama America.  Illegal immigrant, no problem, common in we got lots.

Retiring worker who paid in to everything.  Nope, you cant leave (you have illegals to care for)
How did that work in East Germany again?


The wealthy can leave anytime they want. It is when the money leaves the United States it should be taxed.
 
2013-08-10 02:06:42 PM  

hardinparamedic: BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]

You masturbate over a blatant work of fiction which ignores the basics of human nature and whose entire universe depends on a perpetual energy deus ex machina that violates every known law of physics?


"Blatant work of fiction"? What kind of charge is that? Do you think that this work of fiction should have been less blatant about being fiction
 
2013-08-10 02:07:18 PM  

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


1/10
 
2013-08-10 02:07:27 PM  
Just because you renounce your citizenship does NOT mean you cant live in America.
Where do you get the idea they have to live in ButtFyckistan?

By the way.  California raised the state tax on people making more than $1M a few years ago.
They thought this would raise revenue.
What happened is that those making more than $1M left the state.

The net result was LESS taxes from rich people.
Questions? See Detroit.
 
2013-08-10 02:07:38 PM  

iheartscotch: / one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard


Interesting. I googled this and it appears to be quite the complicated situation.
 
2013-08-10 02:08:00 PM  

badhatharry: MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?

Millionaire? Good luck opening a business.


The one I work at just moved to a facility twice as large as the one we were in.
 
2013-08-10 02:08:03 PM  

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


Lol wut?
 
2013-08-10 02:08:16 PM  

ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.


That's not the only point. If you live and work overseas you often have to pay taxes in that country AND you get to pay taxes in the U.S..
 
2013-08-10 02:08:27 PM  

jnapier: Nyaaa I'll take the Caymans where there are no taxes


 go live there. everything you buy that isn't made there is +25%.  almost +30% for automobiles.
there's 3 hospitals and one MRI machine for all the islands.
and they mandate health insurance for all residents.
 
2013-08-10 02:08:34 PM  

stevesporn2000: To the Norwegian bride - no, there is a tax treaty between the US and Norway. You get a tax credit and based upon Norway's tax rates you'd essentially only pay tax on investment income in the United States. There are some minor complicating factors for structuring your finances (such as whether a Roth IRA is better than a regular IRA) but it's really not that difficult. I think my accountant charged $1,000 a year when I was living overseas. Yes it's annoying, but it's a lot less than what you could make my working given that Norwegian wages are so much higher, and once they've done it once you can probably just do the forms yourself the next year. Or you can do what you're doing now, and just assume the problem is way too difficult to ever solve.


That must be a very new development because that directly conflicts with the information I got the last time I pulled my hair out trying to figure out my tax situation. I thank you very sincerely for the advice, tho I'm not sure the wages I could pull would cover my costs.  I'll look into this and run the numbers again!
 
2013-08-10 02:09:02 PM  

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: I remember reading an article that the USA is the only major nation to tax all offshore income regardless of permanent residence.  I had to pay US taxes even though I lived abroad for nearly 300 days 4 years ago.  Sucked.


The way I understood abroad taxes was if the tax from something which was taxed by the abroad country was less than the US tax, the US required the difference.  No?

we can afford to lose the small fish by the droves, but if we lose too many big fish, we're screwed ...

/not really
//we want the small fish who haven't gotten their taxes zeroed out yet
 
2013-08-10 02:09:14 PM  

Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.


Frankly, it's almost impossible to start a business in the state of New York without being a millionaire already. The amount of licences, permits and whatever else is is daunting.

Contrast that with a red state. All you need to do is say to yourself, "self, I'd like to start a business". You could go incorperate a business on your lunch hour if you felt like it
 
2013-08-10 02:09:26 PM  
Thieves typically scuttle the ship as they depart once everything of value is secured.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:09:53 PM  

pedrop357: People who've lived overseas for years are forced to deal with the IRS and US tax system in a manner that citizens of other countries do not.  How many other countries tax the income of expatriates and nonresidents the way the US does?


All of the ones that keep carrier battle groups and Marines all over the world to come get your ass when you get into trouble.  And since we are the world police why shouldn't they pay taxes no matter where in the world they are?

Also, American exceptionalisim.
 
2013-08-10 02:10:20 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Did they find a nice country where the taxes are lower on rich people?

Name it.
 
2013-08-10 02:10:26 PM  

ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.


The difference is that in other countries, you pay high taxes... but you  actually see/receive tangible benefits.

I'm a dual US/Canadian citizen (who's never lived in Canada, my mother became a US citizen after I was born). Canadian tax rates are, on the whole, about the same as what my US tax rates would be. Yet, every time I go to Canada, it's way cleaner, the people are far better educated, the population is healthier, crime is exceedingly low, the roads are better maintained, the cops aren't beating the crap out of people because they can, there is no massive citizen spying programs and the trashiest parts of Vancouver are about on par with the lower-middle class parts of where I live (Portland, OR).

That's because Canada spends their tax dollars on things like education and infrastructure and health care.

In the US, we spend our  federal tax dollars on really productive things like a massive military who performs absurdly expensive expeditionary wars with little cause, massive federal bureaucracy, a postal service incapable of pulling it's own weight, a massive Department of Homeland Security, dozens of federal law enforcement agencies, foreign aid payouts to countries who don't like us, a wildly inefficient welfare state that seems geared to enslave people in government handouts instead of helping them become self sufficient, a drug enforcement policy that costs $50B a year with no real benefits (and billions more incarcerating the people it insnares). In short, the vast majority of your federal tax dollars buys you complete shiat.

When people get all uppity about people renouncing their US citizenship to avoid paying federal taxes, they like to cite government services that the sucessful consumed like roads, police and fire. Those are all  state and local funded systems.

Federal taxes are nothing but a feeding trough for special interests and our utterly broken government to keep propping up their power. Fark them.
 
2013-08-10 02:10:27 PM  

propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.


This.
 
2013-08-10 02:11:04 PM  

Deep Contact: Someone has to pay for Obummers vacations.


thenevadaview.com
 
2013-08-10 02:11:27 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


Yeah. Why do you suck so badly?
 
2013-08-10 02:11:53 PM  

flucto: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.


I'll be sure to tell my stepmother. I'm sure she would be thrilled to hear that her pinko liberal space muffin step-daughter has seen the light.
 
2013-08-10 02:12:05 PM  

Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.


That wouldn't work on any money that was already overseas.
 
2013-08-10 02:12:51 PM  

Frank N Stein: "Blatant work of fiction"? What kind of charge is that? Do you think that this work of fiction should have been less blatant about being fiction


Well, Republicans seem to think it's the missing book to complete the New Testament.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:12:56 PM  

ManifestDestiny: There are a series of new reporting laws that are taking affect one by one. Basically, if you're making burger-flipper wages or above in your foreign country of residence, that will now give the US the right to examine ALL of the banking records you have in that country in minute detail. Every transaction.


And we can't have them finding out about the money stashed in Switzerland can we?
 
2013-08-10 02:13:27 PM  

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: I remember reading an article that the USA is the only major nation to tax all offshore income regardless of permanent residence.  I had to pay US taxes even though I lived abroad for nearly 300 days 4 years ago.  Sucked.


See it as an extension of your membership of an exclusive club. Or something.
 
2013-08-10 02:14:03 PM  

Hobodeluxe: jnapier: Nyaaa I'll take the Caymans where there are no taxes

 go live there. everything you buy that isn't made there is +25%.  almost +30% for automobiles.
there's 3 hospitals and one MRI machine for all the islands.
and they mandate health insurance for all residents.


Lemme do my math
Someone makes $1M.   The gov takes 39% plus 7.5% SS plus 4.5% ObamaCare plus 5% state
$1M less 56% tax is $460K
Live in Caymens where everything imported is 25% higher. (except some things are a LOT lower, but we will take your ludicrous statement as fact) and we get $750K spending power with no estate tax when I die.

That is of course if I live there 100%.  I could by a house, where they have no residency requirements and go live in, say Anywhere in America I want to.
 
2013-08-10 02:14:08 PM  

iheartscotch: Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.

Frankly, it's almost impossible to start a business in the state of New York without being a millionaire already. The amount of licences, permits and whatever else is is daunting.

Contrast that with a red state. All you need to do is say to yourself, "self, I'd like to start a business". You could go incorperate a business on your lunch hour if you felt like it


that's funny I just had a friend in NY who incorporated himself and his IT business (him and his wife working from home for the most part, she is on there for health insurance savings only ) and it was amazing how easy it was and how much money he is saving.
 
2013-08-10 02:14:11 PM  

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


So you mean the parts of the world where US federal government foreign policy has most farked things up.

FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it. Basically we are talking about the politically unconnected who pay the taxes and have enough money to make fleeing economically feasible. For years people say 'love it or leave it' to those complaining about being so heavily taxed, yet now when people are choosing 'leave it' people like yourself get your panties in bunch over it.

The fact of matter is, those who can successfully place their wealth overseas because of their political and social connections have no need to renounce citizenship. They simply protect their wealth. For those without those connections they have to get citizenship in another country and simply leave. Furthermore, the USA is one of a few nations that taxes people who live outside of its borders. Thus if someone has been living in another country for a decade renouncing US citizenship makes good sense and will keep the IRS from farking with them.

I know two people who have gone to live in other countries permanently. Neither renounced as far as I know, neither has any sort of wealth beyond a typical middle class level if that. Both have had the IRS fark with them.

Then there is the problem where foreign banks simply refuse business with US citizens because of US banking laws. That could make it very difficult to live in a foreign country when you can't use a local bank.

All said and done, your government is encouraging people to leave on multiple levels, of which I've only touched on a few.

Carth: Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.


Right. Keep the slaves on the plantation. Keep the workers in the company town. That's why people who can afford it are leaving now. The parasites in the USA are becoming far too voracious. Me? I cannot afford the cost of renouncing citizenship, so I'll be buying expensive cars and women in the end days. I'll blow every dime before folks like you can get it. I'll end up in the same shanty town either way, I might as well enjoy the way down.
 
2013-08-10 02:14:14 PM  
CPA I know who specializes in helping us citizens abroad. Works with lots of expats.

ustaxhelp.com

/shameless plug
/nice guy
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:15:01 PM  

pedrop357: Those same laws also apply to people who've lived in other countries for years and haven't even set foot in the US in years.  Foreign banks are choosing to simply not allow US residents to open accounts rather than deal with the US government or breach the privacy of their members.

There is more than one side to an issue.  You would do well to learn that.


That's not much of a side.  If that is enough of a reason for you to renounce your citizenship then your ties to the US aren't that strong anyway.
 
2013-08-10 02:15:22 PM  

vpb: ManifestDestiny: There are a series of new reporting laws that are taking affect one by one. Basically, if you're making burger-flipper wages or above in your foreign country of residence, that will now give the US the right to examine ALL of the banking records you have in that country in minute detail. Every transaction.

And we can't have them finding out about the money stashed in Switzerland can we?


More like I can't have them finding out how much I spend on used bacon grease and midget porn.
 
2013-08-10 02:15:28 PM  

Rwa2play: propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.

This.


So, if they are residing overseas and have taken out citizenship there then what are they taking from the United States?
 
2013-08-10 02:15:56 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


If you are paying tax in the US on Norwegian income you are probably doing something wrong, and if Norwegian taxes are that low you don't have much to complain about. FEIE and FTCs should more than cover your US taxes in pretty much any developed nation barring some weird circumstances. If you have trusts or a corporation or certain types of investments, than you can get some expensive filings but if you just need a 1040, two 1116s and an FBAR it shouldn't be that bad. It is the information returns that are the real problem.

iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.


Oh, you are so funny. The countries that the vast majority of rich people would go to live would have far higher taxes than the US. Then they have to pay expatriation tax. And if they have any family in the US they give money to get hammered by gift and estate taxes (which are punitively high for those subject to the expatriation regime).

Enemabag Jones: Just curious, how many are (true) millionaires or billionaires and how many are (not rich) expatriates who have settled abroad?


My guess is that the vast majority renouncing citizenship for tax purposes are people that have lived permanently abroad for an extended period of time (if not their whole lives) without a particularly large amount of assets and receive no benefit from American citizenship. Many either didn't realize their filing requirements or just didn't bother and now that US crackdowns on non-compliance are making the news they are just getting rid of the citizenship as it is nothing more than a liability to them.
 
2013-08-10 02:16:11 PM  

ManifestDestiny: flucto: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.

I'll be sure to tell my stepmother. I'm sure she would be thrilled to hear that her pinko liberal space muffin step-daughter has seen the light.


Bar you from entering the US? Even on a tourist visa?
 
2013-08-10 02:16:27 PM  

clancifer: Freeloaders.


Well not any more, so you should rejoice.
 
2013-08-10 02:16:38 PM  
Ugh, I have to figure out tax stuff from living abroad the last 2 years. Should be fine since I was making less than 95k but still overly complicated and a pain in the ass with some weird, arbitrary seeming reporting requirements like if I ever had a foreign bank account with 10k+ in it.
 
2013-08-10 02:16:42 PM  

Prophet of Loss: Thieves typically scuttle the ship as they depart once everything of value is secured.


Rats onboard tend to poop on and gnaw down everything of value that's been brought aboard a vessel by the capain and good crew.
 
2013-08-10 02:17:07 PM  

leadmetal: Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.


that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites
 
2013-08-10 02:17:10 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


"I have a question: when exactly did you become a nutbar?"
 
2013-08-10 02:17:30 PM  
On some level we are owed a return by society because we exist in society. It's get and give. Infrastructure, security, finance, peace of mind. These are public goods. Who pays for the roads you travel? Who pays for the cops? Who pays for the banking industry? Who pays for our general concept of civilization? The answer is that I pay my share and you pay yours.
 
2013-08-10 02:17:48 PM  

iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.


Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?
 
2013-08-10 02:18:19 PM  

brantgoose: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

Did they find a nice country where the taxes are lower on rich people?

Name it.


Damn it, I thought I had it, but then I realized Antarctica isn't a country.
Don't you find it funny that Aristocles hasn't responded to anyone who's asked him questions?
I've seen him in a few other threads, and everyone seems to be agreed that hes just a lackluster troll.
 
2013-08-10 02:18:34 PM  

lantawa: Prophet of Loss: Thieves typically scuttle the ship as they depart once everything of value is secured.

Rats onboard tend to poop on and gnaw down everything of value that's been brought aboard a vessel by the capain and good crew.


They are also the first to jump ship when it sinks.
 
2013-08-10 02:18:48 PM  

jnapier: Lemme do my math


Your math sucks. You should stop talking.
 
2013-08-10 02:19:00 PM  

iheartscotch: MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?

At this point; I'm willing to consider the possibility of creating new millionaires. You'd have to do it in the more "bootstrappy" states; because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

/ one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard




I look forward to hiring you as a cabbie in Buford Wyoming then.
 
2013-08-10 02:19:25 PM  

Coming on a Bicycle: ManifestDestiny: flucto: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.

I'll be sure to tell my stepmother. I'm sure she would be thrilled to hear that her pinko liberal space muffin step-daughter has seen the light.

Bar you from entering the US? Even on a tourist visa?


According to whomever it was I spoke with at the embassy, yes. If you renounce and then switch citizenships, you get a 10 year timeout.
 
2013-08-10 02:20:00 PM  

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


Surprise!  Paying taxes won't get you any help, either!
 
2013-08-10 02:21:01 PM  
I'm planning on doing it in the next year or so. Not for tax reasons, though. I'm not anti-tax. I'm just going to raise my children in a country that values a challenging education and that cares enough to offer healthcare to its citizens. Oh and if my kids are gay, it would be nice if they could marry without religious idiots sticking their noses in.
 
2013-08-10 02:21:03 PM  
leadmetal:
FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.


Nope.  Try again.
 
2013-08-10 02:21:06 PM  

jnapier: Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.

I like this.  Soon we will have to start border patrols to keep the wealthy from leaving.
The new Obama America.  Illegal immigrant, no problem, common in we got lots.

Retiring worker who paid in to everything.  Nope, you cant leave (you have illegals to care for)
How did that work in East Germany again?


Establish a path to citizenship and today's illegal immigrants become tax paying citizens who can work there way up.  If someone who's made their fortune thanks to the infrastructure and support of the US economy wants to leave, they're free to do so, however they should pay an exit tax as they didn't build their fortune on their own.

When millionaires leave new ones will build themselves up to replace them.

For middle class people living abroad and renouncing due to IRS hassles - good for them too.  If you're living in Thailand/Germany/Sweden/Wherever and you plan on continuing to live there you should become a citizen of that country anyway.
 
2013-08-10 02:21:18 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.




With that $88k+ ex-pat exemption+ deduction for local taxes, you must be pulling down some serious money.
 
2013-08-10 02:21:34 PM  
I know Japan has low taxes compared to the US.

Some considerations:

People will always look on you as a curiosity.

They haven't accepted Chinese and Korean immigrants after 600 years of residence.

Your taxes are low, but the mortgage on your closet sized apartment will take three to four generations to pay off.

You may have to wear surgical masks to breathe.

You may have to pay $100 for a watermelon, or a three ounce Kobo beef "steak", just because it is disgustingly fatty.

You will have to learn Japanese.

You may be beaten up by left wing or far right wing protestors wearing body armor and helmets.

They kill whales every though they have thousands of tons of whale meat on ice that not even the Japanese want to eat.

About three quarters of the country is sacred forest, so your very costly paper comes from Brazil and the population of Canada is crowded into urban Tokyo (and that of California into Metro Tokyo).
 
2013-08-10 02:21:35 PM  

Prophet of Loss: lantawa: Prophet of Loss: Thieves typically scuttle the ship as they depart once everything of value is secured.

Rats onboard tend to poop on and gnaw down everything of value that's been brought aboard a vessel by the capain and good crew.

They are also the first to jump ship when it sinks.


Well, blimey, yon Prophet!  We're certainly coming up with some capital ideas....Nigel, bring me my croquet mallet.
 
2013-08-10 02:22:09 PM  

Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.

Frankly, it's almost impossible to start a business in the state of New York without being a millionaire already. The amount of licences, permits and whatever else is is daunting.

Contrast that with a red state. All you need to do is say to yourself, "self, I'd like to start a business". You could go incorperate a business on your lunch hour if you felt like it

that's funny I just had a friend in NY who incorporated himself and his IT business (him and his wife working from home for the most part, she is on there for health insurance savings only ) and it was amazing how easy it was and how much money he is saving.


Washington is a very blue state, and starting a business here is easy.  At least for a sole proprietorship or LLC; I would assume that forming a corporation is more complicated.
 
2013-08-10 02:22:17 PM  

pedrop357: FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Those same laws also apply to people who've lived in other countries for years and haven't even set foot in the US in years.  Foreign banks are choosing to simply not allow US residents to open accounts rather than deal with the US government or breach the privacy of their members.

There is more than one side to an issue.  You would do well to learn that.


If you interviewed those giving up their citizenship, I suspect that a large percentage would be people who live overseas and are shut out of the financial systems there because the US threatens the institutions with all kinds of mayhem if they don't toe the line regarding US citizens. Far easier (for the institution) to exclude them. So if you're going to stay there, you may as well jettison that baggage before it drags you under.
 
2013-08-10 02:22:48 PM  

BafflerMeal: badhatharry: Carth: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Export tax on wealth when renouncing citizenship. Say 80% should work.

This is why people are leaving now.

There is a financial reniuncement fee already, but i'm not sure how much it is. Also, and this is nuts, one can renounce, burn their passport, become a citizen of another country, and the us gov claims rights to your income for ten years after.


It runs 40% if your net assets are over $2 million.
 
2013-08-10 02:22:56 PM  

dywed88: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

If you are paying tax in the US on Norwegian income you are probably doing something wrong, and if Norwegian taxes are that low you don't have much to complain about. FEIE and FTCs should more than cover your US taxes in pretty much any developed nation barring some weird circumstances. If you have trusts or a corporation or certain types of investments, than you can get some expensive filings but if you just need a 1040, two 1116s and an FBAR it shouldn't be that bad. It is the information returns that are the real problem.


As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.
 
2013-08-10 02:24:10 PM  

Shorelinefarker: Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.

Frankly, it's almost impossible to start a business in the state of New York without being a millionaire already. The amount of licences, permits and whatever else is is daunting.

Contrast that with a red state. All you need to do is say to yourself, "self, I'd like to start a business". You could go incorperate a business on your lunch hour if you felt like it

that's funny I just had a friend in NY who incorporated himself and his IT business (him and his wife working from home for the most part, she is on there for health insurance savings only ) and it was amazing how easy it was and how much money he is saving.

Washington is a very blue state, and starting a business here is easy.  At least for a sole proprietorship or LLC; I would assume that forming a corporation is more complicated.


yeah my friend did the LLC thing.
 
2013-08-10 02:26:06 PM  

HempHead: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


With that $88k+ ex-pat exemption+ deduction for local taxes, you must be pulling down some serious money.


LOLNOPE.  I am pulling in no money at all and we live off my husband's modest salary.
 
2013-08-10 02:27:14 PM  

Hobodeluxe: that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites


If people were paying for the services they use, then there is no need for government services, only market services. People would not be leaving if they only paid for what they used. The fact is government is required to make people pay for services -other- people use. So what you're voicing displeasure about is that the people paying the taxes to subsidize things you want to use but not pay for (or only pay a reduced price for) have decided to leave and not subsidize you any longer. So who is the parasite?
 
2013-08-10 02:29:29 PM  

JasonOfOrillia: Rwa2play: propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.

This.

So, if they are residing overseas and have taken out citizenship there then what are they taking from the United States?


Only two things really; a security blanket feeling of protection, and the right to come back with your citizenship instead of a green card and a ridiculously long wait. (usually 20-40 years if at all)
 
2013-08-10 02:30:32 PM  

FloydA: leadmetal:
FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.

Nope.  Try again.


Well there is avoiding the police state, the fact they are living elsewhere already and don't need the IRS farking with them (which is the long version of the above), and the economic decline of the USA, which again is related. But this fark, so keeping things simple is key.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:32:03 PM  

ManifestDestiny: It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


Uh, no.  I have lived overseas myself, and it doesn't work that way.

You aren't "taxed twice over", unless you just don't bother to take the Foreign Tax Credit.  If you pay more taxes in Norway than in the US you should owe nothing in taxes to the IRS.
 
2013-08-10 02:32:09 PM  

leadmetal: Hobodeluxe: that's what I call people who want the benefits of living here but don't want to pay the taxes.
parasites

If people were paying for the services they use, then there is no need for government services, only market services. People would not be leaving if they only paid for what they used. The fact is government is required to make people pay for services -other- people use. So what you're voicing displeasure about is that the people paying the taxes to subsidize things you want to use but not pay for (or only pay a reduced price for) have decided to leave and not subsidize you any longer. So who is the parasite?


the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.
 
2013-08-10 02:32:33 PM  
You still have to pay US tax for 10 years.
 
2013-08-10 02:33:13 PM  

ManifestDestiny: That must be a very new development because that directly conflicts with the information I got the last time I pulled my hair out trying to figure out my tax situation. I thank you very sincerely for the advice, tho I'm not sure the wages I could pull would cover my costs.  I'll look into this and run the numbers again!


If you make less than 100k and don't have investments in your name, claim a Section 911 foreign earned income exclusion. If you make more or have significant investment income, claim an Foreign Tax Credit (FTC) on form 1116. Assuming Norwegian tax rates are higher than US, that should eliminate all US taxes on Norwegian income no matter the amount of income or the source. If you have US source income, Norway will provide an FTC to offset it. Now, the return will likely cost a couple grand to prepare, but you should net more than that at a job.

For the vast majority of people, if you pay tax in multiple countries you will just pay the higher of the two tax rates.

dr-shotgun: I'm a dual US/Canadian citizen (who's never lived in Canada, my mother became a US citizen after I was born). Canadian tax rates are, on the whole, about the same as what my US tax rates would be.


Canadian tax rates are almost always higher than the US. Certain exceptions, such as single, very high income earners in California vs Alberta. But for the vast majority of people your taxes in Canada will be higher even before considering sales tax.
 
2013-08-10 02:33:24 PM  

BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]


Bye Bye.
I'm sure they all think they're John Galts, reluctantly denying their valuable services to a society that will sorely miss them.
I will be absolutely amazed if we even notice they're gone.
 
2013-08-10 02:33:48 PM  

buckler: The funny thing is that, according to law, you can only renounce your citizenship outside the US, at a foreign embassy or consulate.


That's just common sense. You don't want some f***er pranking the system. I'd imagine it takes more than one visit, too.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:33:55 PM  

flucto: There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

That's nonsense. Only cheap, selfish billionaires whine about the unfairness of the US tax system to Americans living outside the US. Everyone knows that. You're obviously a Republican shill.


Or trolls. Maybe people who believe what they read on Investors.com
 
2013-08-10 02:33:55 PM  

vpb: ManifestDestiny: It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

Uh, no.  I have lived overseas myself, and it doesn't work that way.

You aren't "taxed twice over", unless you just don't bother to take the Foreign Tax Credit.  If you pay more taxes in Norway than in the US you should owe nothing in taxes to the IRS.


As I've said to someone else, I think I've either been lied to or the victim of incompetent embassy staffers.
 
2013-08-10 02:34:00 PM  
Good job, Obama
 
2013-08-10 02:34:41 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Coming on a Bicycle: ManifestDestiny: flucto: ManifestDestiny: Bar you from entering the US? Even on a tourist visa?

According to whomever it was I spoke with at the embassy, yes. If you renounce and then switch citizenships, you get a 10 year timeout.


Wow, that's even worse than I thought. I just thought you'd get put at the back of the line for a green card.
 
2013-08-10 02:35:52 PM  

RandomAxe: iheartscotch: You'd have to do it in the more "bootstrappy" states; because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

/ one example is taxi placards; last I knew, it cost a New York cab company $1 million per placard

LOL. It's not regulations and greedy bureaucrats who have driven up the medallion cost in NYC. It's greedy millionaire cab medallion owners. A medallion is very expensive but typically returns about 5-7% in gains per year on the original investment while also gaining value. Rich people compete over things like that and have no desire to let new players into that game.

You can google this example pretty easily. And, in fact, it's pretty typical. Giant corporations have the money for new start-up locations and don't want small businesses horning in, so they lobby to have regulations established that crush smaller competitors. Government regulations are the tool, not the enemy.


So greedy that they cost themselves extra money? It is still a part of the regulation. What possible harm would it entail to lower the price to $100,000?
 
2013-08-10 02:37:06 PM  

pedrop357: Those same laws also apply to people who've lived in other countries for years and haven't even set foot in the US in years. Foreign banks are choosing to simply not allow US residents to open accounts rather than deal with the US government or breach the privacy of their members.

There is more than one side to an issue. You would do well to learn that.


Clearly you've got some learning to do on your own.  If these people were to actually pay comparable taxes in the countries in which they reside, they could offset the amount paid in foreign taxes from their US taxes.  That doesn't work for them because they're mostly living in tax havens.

These rich assholes don't want to pay any tax, anywhere.

Many of them like having their cake and eating it too.  US citizenship is a great fallback.    You think these folks wouldn't come running and screaming back to the good ole' USA if the paradise they're living in turned to shiat?

These people SHOULD have to choose.  If they want US citizenship, they should pay taxes, somewhere.  They are freeloaders.
 
2013-08-10 02:37:56 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?


How do we get the rest of the tax cheats to leave?
 
2013-08-10 02:38:19 PM  

brantgoose: I know Japan has low taxes compared to the US.

Some considerations:

People will always look on you as a curiosity.

They haven't accepted Chinese and Korean immigrants after 600 years of residence.

Your taxes are low, but the mortgage on your closet sized apartment will take three to four generations to pay off.

You may have to wear surgical masks to breathe.

You may have to pay $100 for a watermelon, or a three ounce Kobo beef "steak", just because it is disgustingly fatty.

You will have to learn Japanese.

You may be beaten up by left wing or far right wing protestors wearing body armor and helmets.

They kill whales every though they have thousands of tons of whale meat on ice that not even the Japanese want to eat.

About three quarters of the country is sacred forest, so your very costly paper comes from Brazil and the population of Canada is crowded into urban Tokyo (and that of California into Metro Tokyo).


I may have benefited from being blonde (at the time) but I never got beat up when I was living in Japan. My experience was the girls and women went nutso over me due to my baby face and blonde hair. I remember one time my class went on a field trip to a Japanese school and I was the first to walk into the classroom. As soon as they saw me, they screamed (dunno if it was from terror or from joy). Since I was a stupid kid, I ran out.

/golden-brown hair now
//nobody screams when they see me these days...
 
2013-08-10 02:38:22 PM  

FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?


Well, since you are serious. You are paying income tax on wages earned. Mitt is paying capital gains tax on returns on investments.  Mitt would pay 30% if he earned a wage at a job. You would pay about 14% if you cashed out your 401K.
 
2013-08-10 02:39:42 PM  

FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?


If you made more than 50% of your "income" from Capital Gains, you wouldn't have a 30% tax rate either.

That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.
 
2013-08-10 02:40:56 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


Why can't embassies, foreign relations, and American installations abroad be free?  Then you could enjoy your citizenship benefits without any cost.
 
2013-08-10 02:41:46 PM  

Southern100: That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.


Romney is one of the people who crafted that system.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:41:46 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Bar you from entering the US? Even on a tourist visa?

According to whomever it was I spoke with at the embassy, yes. If you renounce and then switch citizenships, you get a 10 year timeout.


If you specifically state that you are doing it for tax purposes.  If you say it's in protest of the Iraq war or something then no.
 
2013-08-10 02:42:12 PM  

vpb: Uh, no. I have lived overseas myself, and it doesn't work that way.

You aren't "taxed twice over", unless you just don't bother to take the Foreign Tax Credit. If you pay more taxes in Norway than in the US you should owe nothing in taxes to the IRS.


Exactly right.  The taxes in places like Norway are far higher than they are in the US.  Perhaps outside some very exceptional circumstances, no US citizen living in Norway should have to pay any US tax.  If you are, it's time to get a new accountant.
 
2013-08-10 02:42:48 PM  

ManifestDestiny: There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


What the pluck? AFAIK that's only if you're switching to a notax jurisdiction and taking your money with you AND State or IRS finds out, then they bar you from re-entry. How many millions of moneybucks were you planning to run away with?
 
2013-08-10 02:43:25 PM  
Some people don't base their lives around national boundaries, and want to live wherever without being penalized for it. The US is about the only western government on the planet that doesn't comprehend this. If a person makes a living in a foreign country, under what right does the US have claim to a share? Are we really going to run with the juvenile concept that it's a membership fee of some kind?
 
2013-08-10 02:44:50 PM  

Hobodeluxe: Deep Contact: Someone has to pay for Obummers vacations.

[thenevadaview.com image 700x843]


The point is pay for the cost not the frequency.  How much do Obama and family vacations to Hawaii, Africa etc cost compared to Crawford Texas.

 Or put another way 1 trip to Hawaii pays for how many trips to Crawford?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:44:56 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: For middle class people living abroad and renouncing due to IRS hassles - good for them too.  If you're living in Thailand/Germany/Sweden/Wherever and you plan on continuing to live there you should become a citizen of that country anyway.


I don't think it is even an issue for middle class people unless they live in somewhere with no income tax like Monaco.  This "exit tax" people complain about is only on assets over $2 million.

Spin pieces like this tend to leave out important details like that and foreign tax credit.
 
2013-08-10 02:45:15 PM  

propasaurus: So, just a bunch of takers.


I wasn't aware the majority renouncing were occupiers.
 
2013-08-10 02:45:43 PM  

Alphakronik: Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?

How do we get the rest of the tax cheats to leave?


At least those cheats will be contributing something. I seem to remember ObamaCare was going to be "budget neutral" due to projected increases in tax revenues. What now?
 
2013-08-10 02:46:56 PM  
They must be part of the freeloading 47%
 
2013-08-10 02:47:00 PM  

FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?


The same reason Al Gore gets into his private plane to go to his speaking engagements. Because, at the end of the day, they have more influence on the system then just about anybody else. Also, they have legions of flunkies to do their bidding.
 
2013-08-10 02:47:41 PM  

leadmetal: FloydA: leadmetal:
FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.

Nope.  Try again.

Well there is avoiding the police state, the fact they are living elsewhere already and don't need the IRS farking with them (which is the long version of the above), and the economic decline of the USA, which again is related. But this fark, so keeping things simple is key.



OK, so you started from the assumption that the US is a police state and the government is stealing people's money and providing nothing in return.  These are demonstrably and obviously false claims, so your premises are crap, and any conclusion you draw from them will be false.

Now you've moved on to claiming that the USA is in economic decline (without, I might add, noting that cause of our current economic problems is the supply side "Reaganomics" nonsense), failing to note that we're actually doing far better than nearly everyone else.

You are still embarrassingly unaware that nobody wants to stop all the "bootstrappy" types from leaving (except perhaps for the nations that you plan on moving to).  You just go on dreaming the apocalyptic dream that society will collapse when you all move to Galt's Gulch.

Go.  Please go.  We won't miss you.  The people who refuse to pay taxes in the US should not have the benefits of US citizenship.   If you're honestly under the impression that the benefits aren't worth the costs, I wholeheartedly encourage you to leave and renounce your citizenship.  Go.  Good riddance.  Need help packing?
 
2013-08-10 02:48:28 PM  

Rand's lacy underwear: ManifestDestiny: There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

What the pluck? AFAIK that's only if you're switching to a notax jurisdiction and taking your money with you AND State or IRS finds out, then they bar you from re-entry. How many millions of moneybucks were you planning to run away with?


Enough to buy all the midget porn ever made.

Heh.  Not really.  I moved with two suitcases and the clothes on my back. And maybe $200 in my pocket after withdrawing whatever was left after a shoestring wedding.
 
2013-08-10 02:48:50 PM  

badhatharry: Well, since you are serious. You are paying income tax on wages earned. Mitt is paying capital gains tax on returns on investments. Mitt would pay 30% if he earned a wage at a job. You would pay about 14% if you cashed out your 401K.


You fail to point out that Mittens purposefully arranged to receive the majority of wages in investment income in order to reduce his tax burden.  If a small businessman moves the majority of his salary to 100k in investment income, the IRS will step on his weener.  If the CEO of a private equity does that with 100 million in investment income, no problem.

The easy fix would be to grade all received money as income, no matter the source.  Wages = income.  Dividends = income.  Inheritance = income.

That single fix would solve most of our debt issues.
 
2013-08-10 02:49:01 PM  

gaslight: buckler: The funny thing is that, according to law, you can only renounce your citizenship outside the US, at a foreign embassy or consulate.

That's just common sense. You don't want some f***er pranking the system. I'd imagine it takes more than one visit, too.


It's "common sense" that the government can refuse to acknowledge your decision to renounce citizenship, and continue taking your money? That's like Comcast saying they refuse to disconnect your service and sending a collection agency after you.

/this coming from a guy who doesn't mind paying taxes and believes in progressive taxation
//but it's a breech of basic human rights to dictate citizenship to a person
 
2013-08-10 02:49:16 PM  
If you are living outside the U.S. and have no plans to ever return, why are you playing U.S. taxes?  Why not just become a citizen of what ever nation you are staying in?  Yeah, I know that it's extremely difficult and expensive and time consuming (someone told me that to become an Australian resident, you have to live in Australia for two years without a job and show proof that you can afford to do that before arriving), but if you've been overseas for the past five years and have no plans to ever return, why not pursue it?
 
2013-08-10 02:49:54 PM  

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


What services are those you farking retard? I haven't lived in the states for years, I only go (irregularly) to see family and the IRS wants me to pay taxes every year? For what? Your wars? Preventing abortions? Making sure only white people can vote if at all possible? Are you retarded?
 
2013-08-10 02:50:45 PM  

generallyso: Southern100: That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.

Romney is one of the people who crafted that system.


The idea was to encourage investment to stimulate the economy instead of sticking the cash in your mattress. Stimulating the wallets of fund managers was a nice side effect.
 
2013-08-10 02:51:00 PM  

Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.


So goes the mantra of claiming right to the property of others.

The taxes on a gallon of gas pay for the same use of services. As supposedly does sales tax and utility taxes (many of which were passed as a way to tax the rich who had the utilities first). Social security benefits do not extend upwards beyond the point to which they are taxed. Thus what you are demanding isn't that people who can afford the very expensive process (with some exceptions for some people due to their ancestry)  of leaving the US forever pay for what they use, you are demanding they pay for what other people use.

Thus the services argument is complete bullshiat. Instead what you are doing (beyond justifying theft) is trying to punish the slave that ran away from massa. Why does the runaway slave need to be punished? Because now someone else has to do the runaway's share of the cotton picking along with his own. Also massa has become far more harsh on those who remain on the plantation. The idea of telling massa to fark off doesn't even come up.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 02:51:24 PM  

ManifestDestiny: As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.


Well, consular workers are probably not the people to go to for tax advice.  Did you look at the IRS website?  It sounds like you have gotten some bad advice or taken some spin too seriously,

It would have been sad if you renounced your citizenship to avoid a tax disadvantage that doesn't exist.
 
2013-08-10 02:51:46 PM  

ManifestDestiny: dywed88: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

If you are paying tax in the US on Norwegian income you are probably doing something wrong, and if Norwegian taxes are that low you don't have much to complain about. FEIE and FTCs should more than cover your US taxes in pretty much any developed nation barring some weird circumstances. If you have trusts or a corporation or certain types of investments, than you can get some expensive filings but if you just need a 1040, two 1116s and an FBAR it shouldn't be that bad. It is the information returns that are the real problem.

As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.


As a summary:

For employment income you can claim a section 911 exclusion, known as the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion or FEIE, on form 2555. This allows you to exclude up to $97,600 USD of foreign employment or business income from US taxes. This is somewhat simpler to file than an FTC (explained later), so if doing it yourself and you income is all from employment it is probably the better option. This also applies if your local tax rate is lower than in the US.

If you have more income than the limit and/or income that isn't covered you ill need to claim a Foreign Tax Credit (FTC) using form 1116. This can be somewhat more complicated, but is the preferred option if you are in a jurisdiction with higher tax rates than the US. With an FTC, you report to the IRS your Norwegian taxes (and this likely includes some social security taxes, but that is on a case-by-case basis and I can't comment on Norway) and you can claim a credit against US taxes on your foreign income. If your Norwegian taxes are greater than the US ones you will get credit against all US taxes you would otherwise owe. If you have income from US sources, you will still have to pay some to the IRS, but you can get the same credit from Norway for US taxes paid.

The first year especially get a professional to prepare it so that you have a reference if you decide to do it on your own in the future. It will likely cost a couple grand, but I assume you will net more than that from a job. If you were talking to IRS people at the embassy they were probably incompetent, lazy, or both. Talk to an accountant instead (one with US cross border specialists, preferably from a firm with a presence in both the US and Norway). It will cost a bit but they generally know more far than the front line IRS people (and have an incentive to help you minimize taxes as they want your references and business).
 
2013-08-10 02:52:01 PM  

Hobodeluxe: that's funny I just had a friend in NY who incorporated himself and his IT business (him and his wife working from home for the most part, she is on there for health insurance savings only ) and it was amazing how easy it was and how much money he is saving.


As a cpa who has dealt with NY and NYC residents and business that is BS. From either you, your friend or both.
 
2013-08-10 02:54:25 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Some people don't base their lives around national boundaries, and want to live wherever without being penalized for it. The US is about the only western government on the planet that doesn't comprehend this. If a person makes a living in a foreign country, under what right does the US have claim to a share? Are we really going to run with the juvenile concept that it's a membership fee of some kind?


Have you missed all of the posts explaining that, if you are taxed at a higher rate in another country, you don't pay anything to the US (on foreign earned income). Even if you aren't taxed at a higher rate than the US charges, you still get to deduct the foreign taxes from the US federal taxes you pay. Are you confused or something?
 
2013-08-10 02:54:31 PM  

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


Couple of things, first, even with fibbing a little on their tax returns, the wealthy pay far more in taxes than the average person and on average, they receive far fewer government services.  The bottom line is for the big government system to work, we need the wealthy to stick around because they are the ones paying for it all.  I understand class envy and resentment for those you perceive as having "more" than you, but "GTFO" is not what we should be saying to those that fund the government.

France and England have been dealing with this very same issue recently.   The number of millionaires in England dropped by 2/3 after a big hike to their taxes and of course the issue in France was highlighted by Gerard Depardieu renouncing his French citizenship over taxes.
 
2013-08-10 02:55:06 PM  

badhatharry: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

Well, since you are serious. You are paying income tax on wages earned. Mitt is paying capital gains tax on returns on investments.  Mitt would pay 30% if he earned a wage at a job. You would pay about 14% if you cashed out your 401K.


Southern100:

If you made more than 50% of your "income" from Capital Gains, you wouldn't have a 30% tax rate either.

That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.



I'm aware of the mechanisms.  I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income.  I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

(I know the actual reason is that rich people write the laws, I was asking for someone to tell me the "rationalization" that makes those laws acceptable to about half of the voters.)
 
2013-08-10 02:55:38 PM  

xxdangerbobxx: What services are those you farking retard? I haven't lived in the states for years, I only go (irregularly) to see family and the IRS wants me to pay taxes every year? For what? Your wars? Preventing abortions? Making sure only white people can vote if at all possible? Are you retarded?


Are you? Or are you just living in a tax haven?

If you're living outside the US, the foreign tax credit stipulates that any taxes paid overseas offset any US taxes owed.  So unless you're living in some low-tax or no-tax haven, you shouldn't owe much, if anything.

You're telling me that if your current place of residence turned to shiat tomorrow you wouldn't pack up and head back to the good ole' USA?  Your passport is a fallback.  If having a fallback isn't important to you, then give back the passport and live a happy life overseas.
 
2013-08-10 02:55:52 PM  

jnapier: Just because you renounce your citizenship does NOT mean you cant live in America.
Where do you get the idea they have to live in ButtFyckistan?

By the way.  California raised the state tax on people making more than $1M a few years ago.
They thought this would raise revenue.
What happened is that those making more than $1M left the state.

The net result was LESS taxes from rich people.
Questions? See Detroit.


Except, what actually happened was a couple news stations made noise about millionaires leaving, when there was actually a net gain of millionaires moving into the state.

"THESE 5 MILLIONAIRES LEFT CALIFORNIA BECAUSE OF TAXES but never mind that these 7 moved in during the same period."
 
2013-08-10 02:56:04 PM  

iheartscotch: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

The same reason Al Gore gets into his private plane



DRINK
 
2013-08-10 02:57:07 PM  

xxdangerbobxx: FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no.  If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer.  GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

What services are those you farking retard? I haven't lived in the states for years, I only go (irregularly) to see family and the IRS wants me to pay taxes every year? For what? Your wars? Preventing abortions? Making sure only white people can vote if at all possible? Are you retarded?



Zero to [favorited!] in one post.  Impressive.
 
2013-08-10 02:57:49 PM  

RandomRandom: vpb: Uh, no. I have lived overseas myself, and it doesn't work that way.

You aren't "taxed twice over", unless you just don't bother to take the Foreign Tax Credit. If you pay more taxes in Norway than in the US you should owe nothing in taxes to the IRS.

Exactly right.  The taxes in places like Norway are far higher than they are in the US.  Perhaps outside some very exceptional circumstances, no US citizen living in Norway should have to pay any US tax.  If you are, it's time to get a new accountant.


One caveat: other countries don't necessarily calculate taxes in the same way.  In the US, everything is calculated as a percentage of gross income - X% in federal income taxes, Y% for state income taxes, Z% for local income taxes.  But here in France, for example, my income taxes are calculated as a percentage of the net that remains after they take out the withholdings for social security, medical, retirement, etc.  And that's a lot of money - up to a third of my pre-tax gross income, in fact.  So much so that if I were merely to claim the credit for the income tax I pay to the French government against my US tax liability (instead of the foreign earned income exclusion), I'd fall about $6,000 short on my US tax liabilities.

Now, the income tax scale here ramps up pretty quickly, so that you hit the top bracket with the 41% marginal rate at around 72,000€/year.  So if you're above the Earned Income Tax Credit, I believe you have a fair bit of headroom until you cross the line and start owing US taxes on top of French ones.  Needless to say, I'm not there yet.
 
2013-08-10 02:58:01 PM  
I guess we'll just annex the Cayman's.

Bastards blew up our steamship
 
2013-08-10 02:59:00 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.


Serves you right for muddying your bath of birth with laplanders and square heads.  Should have stayed at home and married a Mexican.
 
2013-08-10 02:59:27 PM  
I'm as much of a "Fark you, pay your damn taxes" guy as they come, but I don't see what right the US govt has to tax money made overseas. If you don't live here, don't work here, and don't invest here, you shouldn't be taxed here. I can see some sort of mandatory payout to keep you eligible for SS and Medicare if you come back, but what's the logic of income tax?
 
2013-08-10 03:00:05 PM  

MFAWG: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

So America is completely incapable of makingg new millionaires?


Need the tax revenue right now and what will stop the new millionaires from making the same choice the ones of today are once they finally reach that point?
 
2013-08-10 03:04:45 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: they receive far fewer government services


Bullshiat. Most of the wealth they generate depends on infrastructure that is payed for directly or indirectly by federal taxes.
 
2013-08-10 03:06:38 PM  

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.


Then you are an idiot.

If you are making under 98k I think it is now, you don't have to pay federal income tax in the U.S. If you are making more than that, but are also paying taxes in your host country, those taxes will be deducted from what you owe in federal U.S income taxes, which in most cases since the U.S has the lowest income tax rate in the industrialize world means you won't pay any federal U.S income taxes. So either you are lying or your an idiot that is throwing money away because you are too lazy to do some paper work.

These new reporting laws are in place to get people who are hiding money overseas.
 
2013-08-10 03:07:09 PM  

vpb: ManifestDestiny: As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.

Well, consular workers are probably not the people to go to for tax advice.  Did you look at the IRS website?  It sounds like you have gotten some bad advice or taken some spin too seriously,

It would have been sad if you renounced your citizenship to avoid a tax disadvantage that doesn't exist.


The embassy here does offer tax advice. Or did at the time in question.  I don't know if they still do.  I haven't been up there in a while.
 
GBB
2013-08-10 03:07:12 PM  

TopoGigo: I'm as much of a "Fark you, pay your damn taxes" guy as they come, but I don't see what right the US govt has to tax money made overseas. If you don't live here, don't work here, and don't invest here, you shouldn't be taxed here. I can see some sort of mandatory payout to keep you eligible for SS and Medicare if you come back, but what's the logic of income tax?


As a US citizen, you enjoy all sorts of perks such as government assistance in the event that you end up being kidnapped or some such.  I'm sure someone out there, especially someone that works overseas, can elaborate on what all US citizens have available to them while overseas.
 
2013-08-10 03:07:25 PM  

FloydA: badhatharry: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

Well, since you are serious. You are paying income tax on wages earned. Mitt is paying capital gains tax on returns on investments.  Mitt would pay 30% if he earned a wage at a job. You would pay about 14% if you cashed out your 401K.

Southern100:

If you made more than 50% of your "income" from Capital Gains, you wouldn't have a 30% tax rate either.

That's not Romney's fault, that's the fault of our tax system.


I'm aware of the mechanisms.  I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income.  I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

(I know the actual reason is that rich people write the laws, I was asking for someone to tell me the "rationalization" that makes those laws acceptable to about half of the voters.)


Because it encourages people to invest instead of save. If taxes are too high on any profit, it might not be worth risking their money.  Things will get ugly if people start saving their money.
 
2013-08-10 03:08:52 PM  

FloydA: iheartscotch: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

The same reason Al Gore gets into his private plane


DRINK


Pretty much.

The real answer to your question is, the system is broken. We should burn it down, collect the insurance money and start from scratch.
 
2013-08-10 03:09:05 PM  

ongbok: ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.

There was a point when I contemplated handing in my passport just so that I could work. But I as far as I understand, that would bar me from returning home to visit family for 10 years. It would be wrenching if a family member got seriously ill or died and I could not come home to see them or pay respects.

Then you are an idiot.

If you are making under 98k I think it is now, you don't have to pay federal income tax in the U.S. If you are making more than that, but are also paying taxes in your host country, those taxes will be deducted from what you owe in federal U.S income taxes, which in most cases since the U.S has the lowest income tax rate in the industrialize world means you won't pay any federal U.S income taxes. So either you are lying or your an idiot that is throwing money away because you are too lazy to do some paper work.

These new reporting laws are in place to get people who are hiding money overseas.


Way to not read the thread.  Congrats.  Feel special today.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:09:22 PM  

Robo Beat: One caveat: other countries don't necessarily calculate taxes in the same way.  In the US, everything is calculated as a percentage of gross income - X% in federal income taxes, Y% for state income taxes, Z% for local income taxes.  But here in France, for example, my income taxes are calculated as a percentage of the net that remains after they take out the withholdings for social security, medical, retirement, etc.  And that's a lot of money - up to a third of my pre-tax gross income, in fact.  So much so that if I were merely to claim the credit for the income tax I pay to the French government against my US tax liability (instead of the foreign earned income exclusion), I'd fall about $6,000 short on my US tax liabilities.

Now, the income tax scale here ramps up pretty quickly, so that you hit the top bracket with the 41% marginal rate at around 72,000€/year.  So if you're above the Earned Income Tax Credit, I believe you have a fair bit of headroom until you cross the line and start owing US taxes on top of French ones.  Needless to say, I'm not there yet.


The Foreign Earned Income Exemption is $97,600 for 2013.  And it sounds like the taxes in France are lower than I thought.
 
2013-08-10 03:10:38 PM  
So it looks like about 2000 people so far have renounced citizenship, out of a population of 350 Million or so. It's a rounding error on a rounding error. And no analysis that demonstrates that most of these people are ultra wealthy and paying a lot in taxes. Probably a mix of folks, many who have just relocated to another country. Might even be liberal protestors who object to the right wing craziness in America now. Doesn't prove a thing or necessarily have any effect on tax revenue.
 
2013-08-10 03:10:52 PM  

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


LoL.

You do realise this is dualcitizens right?

If you think there's some Team America thing going on, then you're a moron. These are people with citizenship in an European country.
 
2013-08-10 03:11:26 PM  

vpb: Robo Beat: One caveat: other countries don't necessarily calculate taxes in the same way.  In the US, everything is calculated as a percentage of gross income - X% in federal income taxes, Y% for state income taxes, Z% for local income taxes.  But here in France, for example, my income taxes are calculated as a percentage of the net that remains after they take out the withholdings for social security, medical, retirement, etc.  And that's a lot of money - up to a third of my pre-tax gross income, in fact.  So much so that if I were merely to claim the credit for the income tax I pay to the French government against my US tax liability (instead of the foreign earned income exclusion), I'd fall about $6,000 short on my US tax liabilities.

Now, the income tax scale here ramps up pretty quickly, so that you hit the top bracket with the 41% marginal rate at around 72,000€/year.  So if you're above the Earned Income Tax Credit, I believe you have a fair bit of headroom until you cross the line and start owing US taxes on top of French ones.  Needless to say, I'm not there yet.

The Foreign Earned Income Exemption is $97,600 for 2013.  And it sounds like the taxes in France are lower than I thought.


But as someone described above, if you use the FTC then you may be able to include foreign social security paid.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:11:35 PM  
FloydA:
I'm aware of the mechanisms.  I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income.  I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

Because investors are the "job creators"   Apparently the economy is driven entirely by investment and people who aren't investors are moochers.
 
2013-08-10 03:12:37 PM  
Pumpernickel bread:
Couple of things, first, even with fibbing a little on their tax returns, the wealthy pay far more in taxes than the average person and on average, they receive far fewer government services.

Your first claim, that the wealthy pay far more, is based on a misunderstanding of ratios.  If I'm paying 30% of my income in taxes and Paris Hilton is paying 14% of her income, it is irrelevant that her total contribution is larger than mine; she is being given a benefit that I am not.

Your second claim, that the wealthy receive fewer government services, is patently false.  Roads, bridges, railways, airports, and all of our transportation infrastructure exist largely to allow easy transport of goods from producers to markets.  The wealthy benefit disproportionately from transportation infrastructure.  Police forces and the justice system exist, in large part, to protect property and enforce contracts.  Those who own the most property benefit the most from the existence of our legal and law enforcement system.  FEMA and the National Guard exist, in large part, to protect lives and restore real property in the event of natural disasters.  People who own property benefit from those services, and the more property they own, the more they benefit.

It is popular, among a segment of the population, to assume that "government services" only refers to food stamps and welfare checks, but that is not accurate.


The bottom line is for the big government system to work, we need the wealthy to stick around because they are the ones paying for it all.

Except that, in the US, the middle class are the ones paying for it all.


I understand class envy and resentment for those you perceive as having "more" than you

No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.
 
2013-08-10 03:12:54 PM  

FloydA: leadmetal: FloydA: leadmetal:
FloydA: eah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.

Most people doing this, do so to get their money out of the USA so the parasites can't get it.

Nope.  Try again.

Well there is avoiding the police state, the fact they are living elsewhere already and don't need the IRS farking with them (which is the long version of the above), and the economic decline of the USA, which again is related. But this fark, so keeping things simple is key.


OK, so you started from the assumption that the US is a police state and the government is stealing people's money and providing nothing in return.  These are demonstrably and obviously false claims, so your premises are crap, and any conclusion you draw from them will be false.

Now you've moved on to claiming that the USA is in economic decline (without, I might add, noting that cause of our current economic problems is the supply side "Reaganomics" nonsense), failing to note that we're actually doing far better than nearly everyone else.

You are still embarrassingly unaware that nobody wants to stop all the "bootstrappy" types from leaving (except perhaps for the nations that you plan on moving to).  You just go on dreaming the apocalyptic dream that society will collapse when you all move to Galt's Gulch.

Go.  Please go.  We won't miss you.  The people who refuse to pay taxes in the US should not have the benefits of US citizenship.   If you're honestly under the impression that the benefits aren't worth the costs, I wholeheartedly encourage you to leave and renounce your citizenship.  Go.  Good riddance.  Need help packing?


You're babbling.

As I have demonstrated to your ideological partner, the services argument is complete bullshiat. What you and your kind want is the resources of other people. Plain and simple. That's why you want this big bloated government. If it was about paying for what one uses, then government services are not needed, only market services. People would pay for what they use. Government services allow forcing other people to pay for them or the bulk of their cost.

Also several people in this thread are voicing on keeping people from leaving via one method or another. In fact many people seem rather upset they are leaving.

The 0.1% that own the USA aren't renouncing citizenship. Their wealth is fully protected from the likes of you. The people who are running are those who cannot politically protect themselves from your kind or the predatory 0.1%. The people who are being stolen from on both ends but can afford to do something about it. Love it or leave it, they are leaving. Golden goose fly away.

It also seems you want to label me with a bunch of right-statism, sorry, I oppose that too. I oppose statism, be it left or right. The right statists are just as vicious regarding keeping people in this company town to exploit them as the left statists.

As to the police state, that should be obvious now. It's still selective and mostly preys upon poor people (but expanding to small business owners and the like), but it should be obvious none the less.  The real main street economic decline should also be obvious. Go see the next whine about how walmart shelve stockers don't make as much money as fork lift drivers, machinists, and other skilled people.

As to me, I cannot afford the cost to leave given my understanding of costs well into the six figures. I am one generation too far removed to get a passport in another country so I would have to buy one and pay for the whole process. Thus my plan is that when things start to get really bad is to blow everything on expensive cars and expensive women. I end up in the same shanty regardless. In fact I am getting really tired of working well into May just to pay for unthankful indignant people like yourself and/or those you champion. Maybe I'll just stop working. Not leave, just not work any more. You can't collect income taxes unless there's an income. Maybe even find a way on to the dole. A few baby mamas too... How about that?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:13:11 PM  

brilett: I guess we'll just annex the Cayman's.

Bastards blew up our steamship


And they shot down helen Keller when she tried to escape from the Germans by flying around the world.
 
2013-08-10 03:13:52 PM  

TopoGigo: If you don't live here, don't work here, and don't invest here, you shouldn't be taxed here.


Well if you want the option of coming back one day you don't want the place to fall apart do you?
 
2013-08-10 03:14:04 PM  

leadmetal: Projection ...

 
2013-08-10 03:15:43 PM  

dywed88: ManifestDestiny: As I said to someone else, the information I got the last time I tried was that you paid on the gross. So either I was lied to or the staffers are incompetent. Either could be the case, really.

As a summary:

For employment income you can claim a section 911 exclusion, known as the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion or FEIE, on form 2555. This allows you to exclude up to $97,600 USD of foreign employment or business income from US taxes. This is somewhat simpler to file than an FTC (explained later), so if doing it yourself and you income is all from employment it is probably the better option. This also applies if your local tax rate is lower than in the US.

If you have more income than the limit and/or income that isn't covered you ill need to claim a Foreign Tax Credit (FTC) using form 1116. This can be somewhat more complicated, but is the preferred option if you are in a jurisdiction with higher tax rates than the US. With an FTC, you report to the IRS your Norwegian taxes (and this likely includes some social security taxes, but that is on a case-by-case basis and I can't comment on Norway) and you can claim a credit against US taxes on your foreign income. If your Norwegian taxes are greater than the US ones you will get credit against all US taxes you would otherwise owe. If you have income from US sources, you will still have to pay some to the IRS, but you can get the same credit from Norway for US taxes paid.

The first year especially get a professional to prepare it so that you have a reference if you decide to do it on your own in the future. It will likely cost a couple grand, but I assume you will net more than that from a job. If you were talking to IRS people at the embassy they were probably incompetent, lazy, or both. Talk to an accountant instead (one with US cross border specialists, preferably from a firm with a presence in both the US and Norway). It will cost a bit but they generally know more far than the front line IRS people (and have an incentive to help you minimize taxes as they want your references and business).


Again, thank you so very much!  I will restart my inquiries as far as possible employment goes. At the very least, I won't be afraid of taking odd jobs and other small things.
 
ows
2013-08-10 03:16:06 PM  

badhatharry: Bunch of quitters. I'm not leaving until I have to sneak out.


that's when the "real fence" will go up.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:19:12 PM  

leadmetal: You're babbling.


As to me, I cannot afford the cost to leave given my understanding of costs well into the six figures

So even though the first two million is exempt it would cost you "well into the six figures"?  Or is your understanding of tax law as bad as your understanding of economics and government?
 
2013-08-10 03:20:06 PM  

GBB: As a US citizen, you enjoy all sorts of perks such as government assistance in the event that you end up being kidnapped or some such.


Not particularly. Unless someone can get a senator or something to champion your cause you're pretty much on your own. Of course in many cases the reason an american would be kidnapped in the first place has a lot to do with the US federal government's war on drugs, war on terror, or aggressive foreign policy in general.

Thus I would contend as far as getting kidnapped or some such in a foreign country goes, US citizenship is more of a risk than a benefit. As I understand it, being able to pass one's self off as a Canadian often helps in such situations.
 
2013-08-10 03:22:14 PM  

leadmetal: You're babbling.

As I have demonstrated to your ideological partner, the services argument is complete bullshiat. What you and your kind want is the resources of other people. Plain and simple. That's why you want this big bloated government. If it was about paying for what one uses, then government services are not needed, only market services. People would pay for what they use. Government services allow forcing other people to pay for them or the bulk of their cost.


Oh, you're a Randian.  Why didn't you just say so? It would have saved us both some time.  Rand's simplistic philosophy works fine in books where the hack author gets to deus ex machia solutions to any problems that arise, but in the real world, it works no better than any other ideology.   In the real world, you have to adjust your ideals to fit the people - you can't change the people to suit your ideals.  Rand's ideology is no better than Marx's ideology, in that both of them are fantasy worlds that cannot ever possibly exist.  You might just as well base your plan for society on the Harry Potter novels.
 
2013-08-10 03:22:48 PM  

FloydA: iheartscotch: FloydA: iheartscotch: This is why raising taxes on the rich to absurd levels won't work. Millionaires and billionaires can afford to move somewhere else and give the IRS the finger.

Let me ask a serious question.  Mitt Romney pays about 14% taxes on his income, and I pay about 30% on my much smaller income.  Why is it "absurd" to want us both to pay the same rate?

The same reason Al Gore gets into his private plane


DRINK


Mr. Floyd A.,

I propose that we found a new nation. It has become obvious to me that the political powers which be cannot allow for meaningful reform. As such we must forge new ground.

Since there is, as it were, no ground to found, this nation must be a technological superiority. Thus shall we craft a nation of floating cities upon the ocean. As the time advances and as our technology advances, we can also build structures beneath the waves and in the Lagrangian points and beyond in the inky black forever.

I respectfully submit that this is a necessary act because there's fark-all chance we can find a proper compromise in-house.

/VR

Casual Disregard
 
2013-08-10 03:23:25 PM  

Hobodeluxe: iheartscotch: because, regulations in other states sufficate small business.

bullshiat. freaking subsidies and handouts to the big boys by the govt are why the little fish can't compete. they have to play by a different set of rules.


Why cant it be both.jpg
 
2013-08-10 03:25:10 PM  
yubanet.com
 
2013-08-10 03:25:55 PM  
Tax cheats give up citizenship rather than pay more taxes.

Just goes to show that once you reach a certain income level, you stop being American.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:26:45 PM  

leadmetal: Not particularly. Unless someone can get a senator or something to champion your cause you're pretty much on your own. Of course in many cases the reason an american would be kidnapped in the first place has a lot to do with the US federal government's war on drugs, war on terror, or aggressive foreign policy in general.

Thus I would contend as far as getting kidnapped or some such in a foreign country goes, US citizenship is more of a risk than a benefit. As I understand it, being able to pass one's self off as a Canadian often helps in such situations.


So go.

I suspect that it wouldn't cost you a dime to leave, but even if you do have more than 2 million in assets then paying 40% on the rest should still leave you with plenty, and you are only having to pay taxes on money you made in the US anyway.
 
2013-08-10 03:26:51 PM  

stevesporn2000: To the Norwegian bride - no, there is a tax treaty between the US and Norway. You get a tax credit and based upon Norway's tax rates you'd essentially only pay tax on investment income in the United States. There are some minor complicating factors for structuring your finances (such as whether a Roth IRA is better than a regular IRA) but it's really not that difficult. I think my accountant charged $1,000 a year when I was living overseas. Yes it's annoying, but it's a lot less than what you could make my working given that Norwegian wages are so much higher, and once they've done it once you can probably just do the forms yourself the next year. Or you can do what you're doing now, and just assume the problem is way too difficult to ever solve.


This. My wife got credit on all the taxes, et al., that she paid in Switzerland. She made a LOT of money there, and only paid taxes on a fraction of it all. Much of that is because we own a house, plane, et al.

/we do pay an accountant
//there are expenses to being a consultant
 
2013-08-10 03:27:18 PM  

vpb: leadmetal: You're babbling.

As to me, I cannot afford the cost to leave given my understanding of costs well into the six figures

So even though the first two million is exempt it would cost you "well into the six figures"?  Or is your understanding of tax law as bad as your understanding of economics and government?


Before you renounce US citizenship you need a passport in another country. The cost of this process varies depending on personal circumstances and ancestry. It's not what the USA takes in taxes, but this process that is the barrier. The cheapest route of course is to think a decade or more in advance and take up residence in another country fully understanding their immigration laws before hand. However not doing that means purchasing a passport and that is a very expensive process as I understand it.
 
2013-08-10 03:27:20 PM  

violentsalvation: Okay, see ya. Stay out of the Middle East, most of Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia - because if anything happens to you we aren't coming to help.


I always find this amusing when I think that here if you want help from the US gov as a US citizen you have to call a 900 number
Yes they charge by the minute
 
2013-08-10 03:28:11 PM  
I'd like to pay no taxes too but since I pay about the same 14% tax that Mitt does, no one will take me seriously


leadmetal: I am getting really tired of working well into May just to pay for unthankful indignant people like yourself and/or those you champion


Because everyone who thinks differently than you is clearly an inferior, unemployed subset of human who has no one to blame but himself  for what he earns?

.
 
2013-08-10 03:29:43 PM  
casual disregard:
Mr. Floyd A.,

I propose that we found a new nation. It has become obvious to me that the political powers which be cannot allow for meaningful reform. As such we must forge new ground.

Since there is, as it were, no ground to found, this nation must be a technological superiority. Thus shall we craft a nation of floating cities upon the ocean. As the time advances and as our technology advances, we can also build structures beneath the waves and in the Lagrangian points and beyond in the inky black forever.

I respectfully submit that this is a necessary act because there's fark-all chance we can find a proper compromise in-house.

/VR

Casual Disregard


You're not planning to ban spinach, onions, and the Reverend Horton Heat are you?
 
2013-08-10 03:29:51 PM  
fark all you haters! I have lived abroad 8 years. Why the hell do I need to file US taxes? Do you file state taxes in all 50 states?

Didn't think so.


I don't think any other country forces nonresidents to file.

I pay an assload of tax living in socialist Europe- FWIW.
 
2013-08-10 03:30:58 PM  

filter: fark all you haters! I have lived abroad 8 years. Why the hell do I need to file US taxes? Do you file state taxes in all 50 states?

Didn't think so.


I don't think any other country forces nonresidents to file.

I pay an assload of tax living in socialist Europe- FWIW.


Cry moar.
 
2013-08-10 03:31:56 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: pedrop357: ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.

At least those countries don't tax you even though haven't been in their borders for a year or more.

Yeah, this.  I'll be paying taxes in both Canada and the US this year, and every year, because I make more than 80K.  I've always said I'd never renounce my citizenship, but I gotta say it's tempting now.


I know a way out of this situation- claim the foreign tax exclusion, rather than the foreign income exemption.
 
2013-08-10 03:32:16 PM  

FloydA: casual disregard:
Mr. Floyd A.,

I propose that we found a new nation. It has become obvious to me that the political powers which be cannot allow for meaningful reform. As such we must forge new ground.

Since there is, as it were, no ground to found, this nation must be a technological superiority. Thus shall we craft a nation of floating cities upon the ocean. As the time advances and as our technology advances, we can also build structures beneath the waves and in the Lagrangian points and beyond in the inky black forever.

I respectfully submit that this is a necessary act because there's fark-all chance we can find a proper compromise in-house.

/VR

Casual Disregard

You're not planning to ban spinach, onions, and the Reverend Horton Heat are you?


I like red onions. Spinach is hit and miss, but some greens go a long way.

Who am I kidding. The whole operation would be overtaken by extremists.

There's literally nothing a leftist can do except whine or die.
 
2013-08-10 03:32:37 PM  

filter: fark all you haters! I have lived abroad 8 years. Why the hell do I need to file US taxes?


You don't.  Renounce your US citizenship.  Nobody is trying to stop you.
 
2013-08-10 03:33:24 PM  
Number of newly self-declared terrorists hits record high. And that's not even counting Edward Snowden

FTFY.

If they want to leave the US for tax reasons, then it is enough of a reason to consider them little different than Al Qaeda
 
2013-08-10 03:33:50 PM  

jjorsett: the US threatens the institutions with all kinds of mayhem if they their customers don't toe the line regarding US citizens.


This is the real problem, the bank can't be sure if the American is lying to them and the *bank* gets hit if *we* are.
 
2013-08-10 03:36:27 PM  
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-08-10 03:36:44 PM  
casual disregard:

I like red onions. Spinach is hit and miss, but some greens go a long way.

Who am I kidding. The whole operation would be overtaken by extremists.

There's literally nothing a leftist can do except whine or die.



We can encourage  them to set up floating cities on the ocean that will be tax-free libertarian paradises.

(Then we just need to find a way to keep them from coming back once they discover how quickly Galt's Gulch turns into Lord of the Flies.)
 
2013-08-10 03:37:49 PM  
This only proves that rich people have no loyalty to anything or anyone other than themselves and their bank accounts.
 
2013-08-10 03:39:07 PM  

FloydA: casual disregard:

I like red onions. Spinach is hit and miss, but some greens go a long way.

Who am I kidding. The whole operation would be overtaken by extremists.

There's literally nothing a leftist can do except whine or die.


We can encourage  them to set up floating cities on the ocean that will be tax-free libertarian paradises.

(Then we just need to find a way to keep them from coming back once they discover how quickly Galt's Gulch turns into Lord of the Flies.)


Galters never seem to grasp the simple reality that the moment that they exit the system, someone from beneath them in the system will step up to take their places.
 
2013-08-10 03:39:26 PM  

FloydA: leadmetal: You're babbling.

As I have demonstrated to your ideological partner, the services argument is complete bullshiat. What you and your kind want is the resources of other people. Plain and simple. That's why you want this big bloated government. If it was about paying for what one uses, then government services are not needed, only market services. People would pay for what they use. Government services allow forcing other people to pay for them or the bulk of their cost.

Oh, you're a Randian.  Why didn't you just say so? It would have saved us both some time.  Rand's simplistic philosophy works fine in books where the hack author gets to deus ex machia solutions to any problems that arise, but in the real world, it works no better than any other ideology.   In the real world, you have to adjust your ideals to fit the people - you can't change the people to suit your ideals.  Rand's ideology is no better than Marx's ideology, in that both of them are fantasy worlds that cannot ever possibly exist.  You might just as well base your plan for society on the Harry Potter novels.


You're wrong again. Never read Rand and what I know of her and her views I often find rather vile actually.

The simple fact is that the "services" argument is bullshiat on plain logical basis. Arguing that people are renouncing citizenship to avoid paying for what they use is simply illogical. Trying to convert it into an equally bullshiat social contract argument doesn't help you any. What you are saying with a social contract argument is that by circumstances of birth a person is bound much like a slave or serf would be bound. Except not being bound to a specific master, but bound to an institution of state which supposedly represents the interests of his fellow slaves. We're back to punishing the runaway slave because any slave that runs away means the rest of us have to pick more cotton per person.
 
2013-08-10 03:40:22 PM  
Love it or leave it!!

Oh wait...
 
2013-08-10 03:40:44 PM  
God forbid we offer citizenship to people that WANT to pay taxes here...
 
2013-08-10 03:41:01 PM  

edmo: Because everyone who thinks differently than you is clearly an inferior, unemployed subset of human who has no one to blame but himself for what he earns?


No because the person I was replying to thinks he or others are entitled to my labor as if it is their natural right.
 
2013-08-10 03:41:21 PM  

FloydA: casual disregard:

I like red onions. Spinach is hit and miss, but some greens go a long way.

Who am I kidding. The whole operation would be overtaken by extremists.

There's literally nothing a leftist can do except whine or die.


We can encourage  them to set up floating cities on the ocean that will be tax-free libertarian paradises.

(Then we just need to find a way to keep them from coming back once they discover how quickly Galt's Gulch turns into Lord of the Flies.)


"They" seem quite content to keep raping the populace in its little euphoria. That's why I think "we" need to make a clean break. At some point, you just stop conversating. We've passed that point. All we need is a few boats, my friend...
 
2013-08-10 03:41:23 PM  

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: I remember reading an article that the USA is the only major nation to tax all offshore income regardless of permanent residence.  I had to pay US taxes even though I lived abroad for nearly 300 days 4 years ago.  Sucked.


Don't evade(yes, creative avoidance counts too) taxes, and do taxes without having to resort to creative accounting.

That said, if you need creative accounting just so taxes are in order, you're doing it wrong.

brilett: I guess we'll just annex the Cayman's.


THIS. Then follow with the rest of the Carribean.  Finally, pressure the UK's domiciles and Ireland to harmonize tax policy.
 
2013-08-10 03:42:01 PM  
Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.

Today was my weekly trip to the grocery store where, as usual, I was the only person in line who actually purchased food with his own money. Tell me again how low-income individuals "pay the same" for their food. Perhaps you aren't aware, but they also frequently qualify for utility assistance.
 
2013-08-10 03:42:12 PM  

FloydA: The number of U.S. taxpayers renouncing citizenship or permanent-resident status surged to a record high in the second quarter, as new laws aimed at cracking down on overseas assets ...

Yeah, um, no. If you're hiding your wealth in offshore accounts, you don't get to call yourself a taxpayer. GTFO and stop using up the services that the rest of us are paying for, you got dam parasites.


The problem is not the taxes but the compliance cost with the IRS measures.

ManifestDestiny: Actually, I find myself quite affected by this issue and it's not really what a lot of people think. Yeah, yeah...getting a kick out of this, etc.

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).


Don't you get credit on your taxes for the taxes you pay Norway?

FloydA: I'm aware of the mechanisms. I was asking for someone to justify why capital gains income is taxed at a different rate than salary and wages income. I'm not blaming Mitt for taking advantage of the law as it is written, I'm just asking for someone who supports that aspect of the current tax code to explain why it is acceptable.

(I know the actual reason is that rich people write the laws, I was asking for someone to tell me the "rationalization" that makes those laws acceptable to about half of the voters.)


Actually there is a very good reason to tax capital gains lower--inflation.  You're not really making as much as it looks like in paper because you're getting back inflated dollars.  For typical stock market returns you actually pay more on capital gains than income once you consider this.
 
2013-08-10 03:42:14 PM  

leadmetal: FloydA: leadmetal: You're babbling.

As I have demonstrated to your ideological partner, the services argument is complete bullshiat. What you and your kind want is the resources of other people. Plain and simple. That's why you want this big bloated government. If it was about paying for what one uses, then government services are not needed, only market services. People would pay for what they use. Government services allow forcing other people to pay for them or the bulk of their cost.

Oh, you're a Randian.  Why didn't you just say so? It would have saved us both some time.  Rand's simplistic philosophy works fine in books where the hack author gets to deus ex machia solutions to any problems that arise, but in the real world, it works no better than any other ideology.   In the real world, you have to adjust your ideals to fit the people - you can't change the people to suit your ideals.  Rand's ideology is no better than Marx's ideology, in that both of them are fantasy worlds that cannot ever possibly exist.  You might just as well base your plan for society on the Harry Potter novels.

You're wrong again. Never read Rand and what I know of her and her views I often find rather vile actually.

The simple fact is that the "services" argument is bullshiat on plain logical basis. Arguing that people are renouncing citizenship to avoid paying for what they use is simply illogical. Trying to convert it into an equally bullshiat social contract argument doesn't help you any. What you are saying with a social contract argument is that by circumstances of birth a person is bound much like a slave or serf would be bound. Except not being bound to a specific master, but bound to an institution of state which supposedly represents the interests of his fellow slaves. We're back to punishing the runaway slave because any slave that runs away means the rest of us have to pick more cotton per person.


The Founding Fathers described it as a social contract, where we all put in in order to partake in the comforts of civilized society.

And Ben Franklin had harsh words for those who didn't like paying their taxes while still partaking in society's comforts.  He suggested that they get the fark out of America and go live in the wilds of the world.
 
2013-08-10 03:44:00 PM  
leadmetal:

i39.tinypic.com
In fact I am getting really tired of working well into May just to pay for unthankful indignant
people like yourself and/or those you champion.

i43.tinypic.com


Ever stop and wonder what goes into determining your gross income?

If we lowered taxes so that you were "done" paying on January 2, do you really think your gross would remain the same?

Go ahead and check out some comps. Test the market. What other countries offer more and charge less?
 
2013-08-10 03:44:43 PM  

RightToWork: Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.

Today was my weekly trip to the grocery store where, as usual, I was the only person in line who actually purchased food with his own money. Tell me again how low-income individuals "pay the same" for their food. Perhaps you aren't aware, but they also frequently qualify for utility assistance.


You poor poor man, being the only person in line who had enough money to pay for his food without governmental assistance.  lol
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:44:43 PM  

leadmetal: Before you renounce US citizenship you need a passport in another country. The cost of this process varies depending on personal circumstances and ancestry. It's not what the USA takes in taxes, but this process that is the barrier. The cheapest route of course is to think a decade or more in advance and take up residence in another country fully understanding their immigration laws before hand. However not doing that means purchasing a passport and that is a very expensive process as I understand it.


Having another passport is not a requirement and there is no fee.  You might have to pay some taxes if you are a high earner or are wealthy, but that's money earned while enjoying the benefits of US citizenship.  Finding another country to take you might be a problem but it's not the fault of the USA and doesn't mean you aren't free to go be a stateless person.
 
2013-08-10 03:45:36 PM  
Number of unPatriotic moochers and corporate welfare queens renouncing US citizenship hits record high.
 
2013-08-10 03:48:47 PM  

RandomRandom: The easy fix would be to grade all received money as income, no matter the source.  Wages = income.  Dividends = income.  Inheritance = income.


Only if you want to make sure that families don't pass businesses on from one generation to the next without incorporating them in the first place. Why encourage one generation to spend what they have on themselves (so the feds don't get it) rather than looking ahead to make sure their progeny can have a leg up because of the work they themselves have put in? Sure, I know, lazy trust fund kids & all that. But then there are those smart families that don't just look to make piles of loot, but rather have significant resources on hand that can be used to aid the family as a whole. Why encourage selfishness and spendthrift behavior when rational planning, cooperation, and long-term plans and projects can be encouraged, with the wisdom, skills, knowledge, and resources built up over generation passed down and used well?
 
2013-08-10 03:51:39 PM  
ManifestDestiny:

I am a permanent resident of my host country and married to a native who is a government peon. The problem for ordinary people like me is that not only do I have to pay steep Norwegian taxes, I also have to give the US its pound of flesh calculated by the pre-Norwegian-tax gross. It's complicated enough that I'd have to hire an accountant (at Norwegian rates).

It is so expensive to be taxed twice over (plus all the costs that go into being employed like clothes, transportation, etc) that it's cheaper for my husband and myself if I just stay home and be a housewife. It's insane.


Fire your accountant and find one who knows you get a tax credit for income tax paid to foreign governments.
 
2013-08-10 03:51:49 PM  

filter: Benevolent Misanthrope: pedrop357: ramblinwreck: If you think taxes are high in the U.S. versus the rest of the first world, then I have oceanfront property to sell you in Nebraska.

At least those countries don't tax you even though haven't been in their borders for a year or more.

Yeah, this.  I'll be paying taxes in both Canada and the US this year, and every year, because I make more than 80K.  I've always said I'd never renounce my citizenship, but I gotta say it's tempting now.

I know a way out of this situation- claim the foreign tax exclusion, rather than the foreign income exemption.


It is amazing how many people, who are apparently smart enough to be wanted by an overseas employer, aren't smart enough to do a simple Google search, that will take them to the IRS webpage and explain to them their tax liability when working abroad.
 
2013-08-10 03:52:26 PM  

Princess Ryans Knickers: Number of unPatriotic moochers and corporate welfare queens renouncing US citizenship hits record high.


In other words, anyone who disagrees with what YOU say should automatically be silenced, shunned, and abandoned.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:53:11 PM  
filter:
I don't think any other country forces nonresidents to file.

I pay an assload of tax living in socialist Europe- FWIW.


It's not like you are paying any US tax if you are paying such high taxes in "Socialist Europe" anyway so I guess it's just the trouble of filing a form stating that you don't owe any money that is your problem.

If being a US citizen isn't worth such a tiny amount of effort to you then you probably shouldn't be a US citizen anyway.
 
2013-08-10 03:54:03 PM  

Infernalist: The Founding Fathers described it as a social contract, where we all put in in order to partake in the comforts of civilized society.

And Ben Franklin had harsh words for those who didn't like paying their taxes while still partaking in society's comforts. He suggested that they get the fark out of America and go live in the wilds of the world.


Which is relevant to my argument exactly how? Am I supposed to consider these people gods or something? Or your interpretation of them correct?

Besides an attempt to invoke authority you are circling back to the services issue. If taxation was on par with services rendered it would make no sense to leave. However taxation exceeds the value of services one gets by a large enough margin, people leave for places where they get a better deal.

That is one of the ideas behind retaining the many states. People and capital would flow to the states which offered a better value while fleeing others that offered a worse value. This works on an international basis as well. The problem is not that people are fleeing, it is that the USA is no longer offering the best value for various people with the means and opportunity to get out.
 
2013-08-10 03:54:04 PM  

feanorn: RandomRandom: The easy fix would be to grade all received money as income, no matter the source.  Wages = income.  Dividends = income.  Inheritance = income.

Only if you want to make sure that families don't pass businesses on from one generation to the next without incorporating them in the first place. Why encourage one generation to spend what they have on themselves (so the feds don't get it) rather than looking ahead to make sure their progeny can have a leg up because of the work they themselves have put in? Sure, I know, lazy trust fund kids & all that. But then there are those smart families that don't just look to make piles of loot, but rather have significant resources on hand that can be used to aid the family as a whole. Why encourage selfishness and spendthrift behavior when rational planning, cooperation, and long-term plans and projects can be encouraged, with the wisdom, skills, knowledge, and resources built up over generation passed down and used well?


Because long-term wealth is often sat-upon and not spent, not put into the system.  Long-term wealth creates an artificial 'nobility class' in this country based on how rich you are and how 'long' your family has been rich.  Hell, it's so bad that they actually have terms like 'new money' to look down upon the rich people who haven't been rich LONG ENOUGH.

Because long-term wealth that isn't invested in the country is often bad for the country as a whole.  I'm a firm believer that if I were to hit it rich, I either need to find a way to invest it into the country and put it to work, or I need to lose most of it upon my death.

My kids?  I can pay for their college ahead of time and ensure that they get a leg up on life with as much education as they can handle and maybe even buy them a cheap home so that they don't have to worry about that sort of thing while they're going to college.  Everything else is stupid luxury and often 'bad' for people to have.  It breeds contempt for those who aren't rich.

Maybe that explains a little bit of why passing billions down through the generations is a bad thing for this country.
 
2013-08-10 03:54:22 PM  

Infernalist: RightToWork: Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.

Today was my weekly trip to the grocery store where, as usual, I was the only person in line who actually purchased food with his own money. Tell me again how low-income individuals "pay the same" for their food. Perhaps you aren't aware, but they also frequently qualify for utility assistance.

You poor poor man, being the only person in line who had enough money to pay for his food without governmental assistance.  lol


Your sympathy is appreciated. I suffer from a rare affliction known as working. With SSDI enrollment skyrocketing, a less common disease in the United States than it once was.
 
2013-08-10 03:55:47 PM  

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


If you can afford to denounce your citizenship because you stored millions of dollars in offshore accounts, I am not sure that a $100/month for the healthcare mandate is really going to make that much different.

Besides NC just outlawed Sharia law and everything it encompasses. Wait till they find out that Sharia law strictly bans abortion.
 
2013-08-10 03:56:02 PM  

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes

Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats, living together!  Mass hysteria!  .....can anyone blame these people.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 03:56:22 PM  

Princess Ryans Knickers: Number of unPatriotic moochers and corporate welfare queens renouncing US citizenship hits record high.


Yeah, 1,000 per year.  That's a reall epidemic all right.

losing 0.00033333333% of our population per year will leave us a desolate wasteland right about the time the sun burns out.
 
2013-08-10 03:58:58 PM  

leadmetal: Infernalist: The Founding Fathers described it as a social contract, where we all put in in order to partake in the comforts of civilized society.

And Ben Franklin had harsh words for those who didn't like paying their taxes while still partaking in society's comforts. He suggested that they get the fark out of America and go live in the wilds of the world.

Which is relevant to my argument exactly how? Am I supposed to consider these people gods or something? Or your interpretation of them correct?

Besides an attempt to invoke authority you are circling back to the services issue. If taxation was on par with services rendered it would make no sense to leave. However taxation exceeds the value of services one gets by a large enough margin, people leave for places where they get a better deal.

That is one of the ideas behind retaining the many states. People and capital would flow to the states which offered a better value while fleeing others that offered a worse value. This works on an international basis as well. The problem is not that people are fleeing, it is that the USA is no longer offering the best value for various people with the means and opportunity to get out.


They're a hell of a lot better than you, farker.  They gave up homes, wealth, titles, lost family and home and just about everything in order to form up a country with no real expectation that it'd work.  So, show them some farking respect, eh?

And if you think rich people have less to lose than poor folk, then you're arrogant 'and' a retard.

But, all of that is irrelevant when you break it right down to is basic facts: You're not an American.  You're just another rich fark who's wanting a better deal.  So, get the fark out and go live in China or Russia or Mexico or wherever you can 'get a better deal'.  You're not wanted, you're not needed.

Parasite.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-10 04:01:50 PM  

leadmetal: .

The simple fact is that the "services" argument is bullshiat on plain logical basis. Arguing that people are renouncing citizenship to avoid paying for what they use is simply illogical. Trying to convert it into an equally bullshiat social contract argument doesn't help you any. What you are saying with a social contract argument is that by circumstances of birth a person is bound much like a slave or serf would be bound. Except not being bound to a specific master, but bound to an institution of state which supposedly represents the interests of his fellow slaves. We're back to punishing the runaway slave because any slave that runs away means the rest of us have to pick more cotton per person.


Well, people who want to avoid paying taxes on money they made in the US are certainly trying to avoid paying for services they use.  You can't live in the US without benefiting from the protection of the military and police and fire departments and the legal system.

And anyone who lives in the US and doesn't think they should pay taxes is certainly a parasite.
 
2013-08-10 04:02:07 PM  

Infernalist: But, all of that is irrelevant when you break it right down to is basic facts: You're not an American. You're just another rich fark who's wanting a better deal.


Exactly
 
2013-08-10 04:03:10 PM  
ManifestDestiny:

According to whomever it was I spoke with at the embassy, yes. If you renounce and then switch citizenships, you get a 10 year timeout.

Not true. You can just get a tourist visa and visit. I have a good friend who changed citizenship two years ago and he still visits the U.S. multiple times a year. The only thing is that you in theory can get blacklisted if the citizenship changed is deemed to have been purely for tax reasons, but in practice this is never enforced.  No idea what the 10 year limit is, maybe 10 years before you can apply for U.S. citizenship again?
 
2013-08-10 04:03:35 PM  

RightToWork: Infernalist: RightToWork: Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.

Today was my weekly trip to the grocery store where, as usual, I was the only person in line who actually purchased food with his own money. Tell me again how low-income individuals "pay the same" for their food. Perhaps you aren't aware, but they also frequently qualify for utility assistance.

You poor poor man, being the only person in line who had enough money to pay for his food without governmental assistance.  lol

Your sympathy is appreciated. I suffer from a rare affliction known as working. With SSDI enrollment skyrocketing, a less common disease in the United States than it once was.


You are what is wrong with is country. And what is wrong with this species.

The fact that you don't understand that is what will destroy us. Your blithe ignorance merely serves to perpetuate your empty ideals.

I sincerely wish you would die as soon as possible, but the unfortunate truth is that you will probably successfully procreate and spawn an ugly demon cloned from your mind.

God Damn You. Literally and viscerally God Damn You.
 
2013-08-10 04:05:19 PM  

verbal_jizm: vpb: Robo Beat: One caveat: other countries don't necessarily calculate taxes in the same way.  In the US, everything is calculated as a percentage of gross income - X% in federal income taxes, Y% for state income taxes, Z% for local income taxes.  But here in France, for example, my income taxes are calculated as a percentage of the net that remains after they take out the withholdings for social security, medical, retirement, etc.  And that's a lot of money - up to a third of my pre-tax gross income, in fact.  So much so that if I were merely to claim the credit for the income tax I pay to the French government against my US tax liability (instead of the foreign earned income exclusion), I'd fall about $6,000 short on my US tax liabilities.

Now, the income tax scale here ramps up pretty quickly, so that you hit the top bracket with the 41% marginal rate at around 72,000€/year.  So if you're above the Earned Income Tax Credit, I believe you have a fair bit of headroom until you cross the line and start owing US taxes on top of French ones.  Needless to say, I'm not there yet.

The Foreign Earned Income Exemption is $97,600 for 2013.  And it sounds like the taxes in France are lower than I thought.

But as someone described above, if you use the FTC then you may be able to include foreign social security paid.


Not in France.  There's an equalization treaty in place specifically excluding the social security taxes I pay here from any kind of exemption or credit.  But on the other hand, IIRC I don't have to pay into the US social security system, but will still be able to collect on it if and when I retire to the US (assuming I give up my French pension, of course).

And the taxes here are indeed higher than in the States, though perhaps less than you had thought if I understand your post correctly.  Between the 33% off the top for my SS/Medical/retirement contributions and the 19.6% VAT, you feel the pinch.  And like any large organization, the government could be more efficient with the money they get.  But all in all, I feel it's worth it.  Or, put another way, I come a lot closer to getting my money's worth here than when I was living in and paying taxes to the US.
 
2013-08-10 04:05:25 PM  

RightToWork: Infernalist: RightToWork: Hobodeluxe: the person who thinks they are entitled to keep all their money. poor people pay the same for their gallon of gas or their bologna sandwich. and all of their income is taxed in sales taxes and other fees the utility companies charge them. they pay soc security tax on every dollar they make. rich people don't.

Today was my weekly trip to the grocery store where, as usual, I was the only person in line who actually purchased food with his own money. Tell me again how low-income individuals "pay the same" for their food. Perhaps you aren't aware, but they also frequently qualify for utility assistance.

You poor poor man, being the only person in line who had enough money to pay for his food without governmental assistance.  lol

Your sympathy is appreciated. I suffer from a rare affliction known as working. With SSDI enrollment skyrocketing, a less common disease in the United States than it once was.


You poor poor man.  I'll tell you what:  I'll look into getting someone to take your place, like in Trading Places.  You can go live in Section 8/Public Housing and live on welfare and public assistance and Tyrone will step up and take your place and live in your much better home, with your car and job.  Because you're plainly jealous of those Lucky Ducks who get by on food assistance and government help every month.

Retard.
 
2013-08-10 04:06:07 PM  

Yankees Team Gynecologist: leadmetal:

[i39.tinypic.com image 640x75]
In fact I am getting really tired of working well into May just to pay for unthankful indignant
people like yourself and/or those you champion.
[i43.tinypic.com image 640x144]


Ever stop and wonder what goes into determining your gross income?

If we lowered taxes so that you were "done" paying on January 2, do you really think your gross would remain the same?

Go ahead and check out some comps. Test the market. What other countries offer more and charge less?


Do you think that government monopolizing so many services is the only way things can be organized?  Of course you do, you cannot conceptualize anything differently. But for you, I know what men of my profession earned in 1905 or so where I presently live. Now converted by CPI to 2013 dollars that is a considerable increase over my present salary. However, in those barbaric times before all these government services that barbarous relic gold was used for money. In $20 gold pieces,  that becomes a few multiples of my present salary.  Also in those days savings gained buying power instead of lost it. Oh and not only that, back then it was before the income tax too... so I would get to keep it all making it even more on top of my present net salary.

So much for this system of corporate serfdom being a benefit to productive people.
 
2013-08-10 04:06:09 PM  
leadmetal:What you are saying with a social contract argument is that by circumstances of birth a person is bound much like a slave or serf would be bound. Except not being bound to a specific master, but bound to an institution of state which supposedly represents the interests of his fellow slaves. We're back to punishing the runaway slave because any slave that runs away means the rest of us have to pick more cotton per person.


Nope, you're not bound to anything at all.  You're free to go.  Nobody is stopping you.  You go wherever you think is better, and take my blessings and good will with you.  If you don't want to, or are not able to, take on the full responsibilities of a citizen, including paying taxes, then go.  Find your tax free paradise wherever you can.  Send us a postcard.
 
2013-08-10 04:08:59 PM  

vpb: Having another passport is not a requirement and there is no fee. You might have to pay some taxes if you are a high earner or are wealthy, but that's money earned while enjoying the benefits of US citizenship. Finding another country to take you might be a problem but it's not the fault of the USA and doesn't mean you aren't free to go be a stateless person.


Spoken like love it or leave it, ignoring all the practical concerns of the process.

Furthermore, the US federal government doesn't exactly approve the renouncing citizenship with no where to go. They tend not to is my understanding of the process.
 
2013-08-10 04:09:46 PM  

Infernalist: But, all of that is irrelevant when you break it right down to is basic facts: You're not an American. You're just another rich fark who's wanting a better deal. So, get the fark out and go live in China or Russia or Mexico or wherever you can 'get a better deal'. You're not wanted, you're not needed.

Parasite.


And therein lies the flaw with these conservatards: for all their talk about the "free market," they can never come up with a market comp example to back up their claim that personal income taxes are too high here.  Always complaining that this country is overpriced for what they're getting, but never showing what else is available.

They're like Corvette fans, except if no Corvette actually existed.
 
2013-08-10 04:14:57 PM  

jnapier: Hobodeluxe: jnapier: Nyaaa I'll take the Caymans where there are no taxes

 go live there. everything you buy that isn't made there is +25%.  almost +30% for automobiles.
there's 3 hospitals and one MRI machine for all the islands.
and they mandate health insurance for all residents.

Lemme do my math
Someone makes $1M.   The gov takes 39% plus 7.5% SS plus 4.5% ObamaCare plus 5% state
$1M less 56% tax is $460K
Live in Caymens where everything imported is 25% higher. (except some things are a LOT lower, but we will take your ludicrous statement as fact) and we get $750K spending power with no estate tax when I die.

That is of course if I live there 100%.  I could by a house, where they have no residency requirements and go live in, say Anywhere in America I want to.


You don't know how to calculate your taxes. Please don't be an accountant.

Your first $250,000 or so is taxed at a lower rate. Then there's another rate until $500,000 or something like that and then yet another higher rate after that. The 6.2% for SSN is taxed on the first $117,000. After
that, there's no more FICA tax. There is no Obamacare tax. There is Medicare/Medicaid, which is 1.45%, no limit (like FICA). There is also state and SUI/SDI, which varies depending on which state you live in: states with better infrastructure will charge some positive % rate. States with terrible infrastructure may charge nothing.
 
2013-08-10 04:19:12 PM  

leadmetal: Do you think that government monopolizing so many services is the only way things can be organized?


Right off the bat, a strawman--or at best a vague non-statement, since "so many" could mean a lot of things. Great start.

leadmetal: Of course you do, you cannot conceptualize anything differently. But for you, I know what men of my profession earned in 1905 or so where I presently live. Now converted by CPI to 2013 dollars that is a considerable increase over my present salary. However, in those barbaric times before all these government services that barbarous relic gold was used for money. In $20 gold pieces, that becomes a few multiples of my present salary. Also in those days savings gained buying power instead of lost it. Oh and not only that, back then it was before the income tax too... so I would get to keep it all making it even more on top of my present net salary.

So much for this system of corporate serfdom being a benefit to productive people.


So, your comp is the America of 1905--with that economy, that infrastructure, that human rights record, that political system?  That's even funnier than any realistic modern-day answer you could possibly provide.

Keep in mind that's pre-WWI, not just pre-WWII.  If you had gone back to 1955, you MIGHT be able to make a "good old days" argument (at least on behalf of white people) but of course even that wouldn't help your case:

blogs.lclark.edu
 
2013-08-10 04:19:19 PM  

BravadoGT: [momentsofexhilaration.files.wordpress.com image 324x324]



i651.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-10 04:20:52 PM  
This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.
 
2013-08-10 04:22:58 PM  

Aristocles: This is what happens in Obama's America.

Any questions?



Yes. Why do you continue to troll? You are absolutely farking terrible at it.
 
2013-08-10 04:24:50 PM  

Infernalist: You poor poor man.  I'll tell you what:  I'll look into getting someone to take your place, like in Trading Places.  You can go live in Section 8/Public Housing and live on welfare and public assistance and Tyrone will step up and take your place and live in your much better home, with your car and job.  Because you're plainly jealous of those Lucky Ducks who get by on food assistance and government help every month.

Retard.


It's not that I'm "jealous" of them. It's that I recognize the potential for serious economic and social problems in a heavily bureaucratized system where low-skilled individuals are systematically incentivized to live on public assistance rather than accept difficult or distasteful employment.
 
2013-08-10 04:26:30 PM  

Infernalist: They're a hell of a lot better than you, farker. They gave up homes, wealth, titles, lost family and home and just about everything in order to form up a country with no real expectation that it'd work. So, show them some farking respect, eh?

And if you think rich people have less to lose than poor folk, then you're arrogant 'and' a retard.

But, all of that is irrelevant when you break it right down to is basic facts: You're not an American. You're just another rich fark who's wanting a better deal. So, get the fark out and go live in China or Russia or Mexico or wherever you can 'get a better deal'. You're not wanted, you're not needed.

Parasite.


Irrational, emotional, and ignorant. The so-called founding fathers were born here by and large if not entirely. Furthermore, if were rich, I might be gone by now. However I am just another serf in this company town, the difference is I see it for what it is. You can keep making nonsense arguments about services and social contracts, but they are ultimately nonsense. It all comes down to the monkey experiment and it appears you're quite the well conditioned monkey.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_the_monkey_banana_and_water_spray_expe ri ment_ever_take_place

FloydA: Nope, you're not bound to anything at all. You're free to go. Nobody is stopping you. You go wherever you think is better, and take my blessings and good will with you. If you don't want to, or are not able to, take on the full responsibilities of a citizen, including paying taxes, then go. Find your tax free paradise wherever you can. Send us a postcard.


If were only so easy. Like I stated earlier, the company town makes sure people like myself don't have the means to leave, the means to buy our freedom. The fact you and others defend the company town make it all the more sad. Can't even see it how company town policy became the system of american government we know today.

vpb: Well, people who want to avoid paying taxes on money they made in the US are certainly trying to avoid paying for services they use. You can't live in the US without benefiting from the protection of the military and police and fire departments and the legal system.

And anyone who lives in the US and doesn't think they should pay taxes is certainly a parasite.


Another illogical argument. A person who renounces citizenship isn't using services in or living in the USA. However folks like you apparently think he should still pay for them because he is what? bound by the circumstances of his birth to pay for them?
 
2013-08-10 04:26:32 PM  

DubyaHater: NSA spying, Obamacare, impending tax hikes, record numbers mooching off the system, open borders, abortions at an all time high, Sharia law spreading its tentacles across the country, American way of life decaying before our eyes.......can anyone blame these people.


8/10! Great day for fishing, you're sure to get nibbles. I'll just sit on the bow and drink all the beer.
 
2013-08-10 04:28:01 PM  

RightToWork: Infernalist: You poor poor man.  I'll tell you what:  I'll look into getting someone to take your place, like in Trading Places.  You can go live in Section 8/Public Housing and live on welfare and public assistance and Tyrone will step up and take your place and live in your much better home, with your car and job.  Because you're plainly jealous of those Lucky Ducks who get by on food assistance and government help every month.

Retard.

It's not that I'm "jealous" of them. It's that I recognize the potential for serious economic and social problems in a heavily bureaucratized system where low-skilled individuals are systematically incentivized to live on public assistance rather than accept difficult or distasteful employment.


So you have no problem with low-skilled individuals who happen to be born into proper circumstances becoming hedge fund managers?
 
2013-08-10 04:29:12 PM  

Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.


No you don't. Take a minute and do a little research before you open your mouth and make yourself look like an idiot.
 
2013-08-10 04:30:21 PM  

Joe Peanut: This isn't just about hiding wealth overseas.  I bet most of these cases are Americans working overseas.  The US is the only country where you must pay income taxes no matter where that income happens to be.  So if you're a US Citizen, and gets a job making 100k in say Brazil for example, you have to pay 50k income tax to the Brazilian government AND 30+k income tax to Uncle Sam, leaving you with just 20k of your own money.  By renouncing your American citizenship, your spendable income goes up by 150%.


Uh, no. You're misinformed and, apparently, to easily distracted to read even a few posts from this thread.
 
2013-08-10 04:32:05 PM  

Yankees Team Gynecologist: And therein lies the flaw with these conservatards: for all their talk about the "free market," they can never come up with a market comp example to back up their claim that personal income taxes are too high here.  Always complaining that this country is overpriced for what they're getting, but never showing what else is available.

They're like Corvette fans, except if no Corvette actually existed.


The silver lining of this recession is it seems to have quieted the Fark Consensus from the 2005-2008 period that Europe was a socially enlightened paradise in which life was a giant vacation shared by all, and public streets unencumbered by vehicles richly flowed with government milk and honey.

No argument from me that the United States, for all its problems, remains the best option out there.
 
2013-08-10 04:34:37 PM  

FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.


No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!

 
2013-08-10 04:37:43 PM  

clancifer: Freeloaders.


I don't know about that. They are living in another country  paying taxes in both countries and if you want to give up your citizenship they slap yo with an exit tax plus they don't even pay back any social security and medicare you may have had to pay into  at some point in your life but won't be able to collect.

I don't think Freeeloaders is the term you are looking for.
 
2013-08-10 04:39:58 PM  

lantawa: FloydA: No, you  imagine envy and resentment are the basis for my opinions.  You don't "understand" my opinions at all.  Please be aware that the people on TV who are telling you that my opinions are based on envy and resentment are lying to you.

No. You're lying to yourself and others. Your opinions ARE, in fact, based on envy and resentment, and your dogma is truly going to eat your kharma. The top ten percent pay an enormous portion of total taxes paid. From the linked article: In 2010, the top 1 percent of tax returns included 18.87 percent of all adjusted gross income and 37.38 percent of all federal individual income taxes paid. The top 5 percent earned 33.78 percent of income and paid 59.07 percent of taxes, and the top 10 percent earned 45.17 percent of income and paid 70.62 percent of taxes.

Link that shows that top 10% pay 70% of taxes
Thinking of how to spend OPM must be so much fun!


Considering the top 1% of the country's population controls over 80% of the wealth, I maintain that they're not paying enough in taxes just yet.