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(Above the Law)   New York City appeals a dismissed $50 ticket because there's absolutely no better use of its resources   (abovethelaw.com ) divider line
    More: Stupid, New York City, West Streets, Leslie Knope, witness testimony, prima facie case, administrative law judge, resources  
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4231 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Aug 2013 at 1:07 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



22 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-08-09 01:11:22 PM  
Why is it illegal to run in the park?
 
2013-08-09 01:12:27 PM  
"After successfully challenging a $50 ticket, attorney Leonard Kohen ..."

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded.
 
2013-08-09 01:13:29 PM  
Precedence.

We cannot allow a precedent be set that says someone is innocent until proven guilty.
 
2013-08-09 01:13:44 PM  
I'm about to take a $40 parking ticket to court, so I'm getting a kick..
 
2013-08-09 01:14:18 PM  
You can get a $850 fine in New York for riding your bike the wrong way on a one way street, but if you kill someone with your car, the fine is only $500.  NYC is an interesting place.

http://gothamist.com/2013/08/08/speeding_unliscensed_killer_given_o. ph p
 
2013-08-09 01:16:10 PM  

garandman1a: Precedence.

We cannot allow a precedent be set that says someone is innocent until proven guilty.


Option A: Consistently and conspicuously post the closing time
Option B: Fight anyone who uses the haphazard signage as a defense
/it isn't their money being spent
 
2013-08-09 01:19:49 PM  
They're not fighting for this $50 ticket.  They're fighting for all of the other tickets they've issued that they can't support with pesky things like evidence.
 
2013-08-09 01:23:01 PM  

Cheron: garandman1a: Precedence.

We cannot allow a precedent be set that says someone is innocent until proven guilty.

Option A: Consistently and conspicuously post the closing time
Option B: Fight anyone who uses the haphazard signage as a defense
/it isn't their money being spent


They already did option A.
The sign beside the employee locker room say exactly what time each individual service of the park closes.  It's in perfectly legible 18-point font 2 feet wide and 4 feet tall.  It's not their fault that parkgoers dont enter the park, go to the southwest quadrant, past the fallen tree, between those two hedges, up the 20 foot path inaccessable by wheelchair, across the ditch and to the employee only building. It was POSTED.
 
2013-08-09 01:33:47 PM  
As an engineer who entered the legal profession I can attest that lawyers are often complete idiots.  Up to and including judges.

I've had one decision reversed on appeal by a new appeal judge because "I wasn't persuasive enough".  Rather than have any knowledge of how law works, and sit down and determine if I erred in my fact finding to invalidly arrive at my legal conclusion, this bonehead reverses under the guise that "well, I don't have time to figure out if he was correct in fact finding, but he wasn't persuasive enough".

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why you get complete shiat quality patents issued.
 
2013-08-09 01:34:37 PM  
Welcome to New York!
 
2013-08-09 01:36:55 PM  
Let's not gloss over the fact that this guy is a lawyer. Lawers are scum, and should be subjected to this sort of treatment. It's not like he's a person...
 
2013-08-09 01:37:17 PM  

nickerj1: As an engineer who entered the legal profession I can attest that lawyers are often complete idiots.  Up to and including judges.

I've had one decision reversed on appeal by a new appeal judge because "I wasn't persuasive enough".  Rather than have any knowledge of how law works, and sit down and determine if I erred in my fact finding to invalidly arrive at my legal conclusion, this bonehead reverses under the guise that "well, I don't have time to figure out if he was correct in fact finding, but he wasn't persuasive enough".

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why you get complete shiat quality patents issued.


=================
"The law isn't justice. It's a very imperfect mechanism. If you press exactly the right buttons and are also lucky, justice may show up in the answer. A mechanism is all the law was ever intended to be."

   --Raymond Chandler
 
2013-08-09 01:47:04 PM  

Cheron: garandman1a: Precedence.

We cannot allow a precedent be set that says someone is innocent until proven guilty.

Option A: Consistently and conspicuously post the closing time
Option B: Fight anyone who uses the haphazard signage as a defense
/it isn't their money being spent


The bizarre thing is that this was the decision of an Administrative Law Judge. Nobody would even have known about it but for this appeal making it news.

It is also an absolutely piss-poor legal brief. All it does is state, without any citation to particular testimony, that the judge was not allowed to believe the person. They aren't even saying the judge shouldn't have agreed with him... they say the judge couldn't. And it looks like the City didn't even show up for the initial hearing, so their position was basically "the ticket says what happened and that's all there is to it." It's an interesting theory, because it would mean that judges are obligated to decide a case based only on the factual information written on a ticket. And by "interesting" I mean "moronic."

Now, I will give the intern a pass because he is still in school (but even he should know better), but that supervising attorney should be run out of the office for signing off on something like that. Even if the decision to appeal could be justified, there is no excuse for how horrible that brief is. And it shows how little respect the City attorneys have for these judges.
 
2013-08-09 01:51:36 PM  

Fissile: nickerj1: As an engineer who entered the legal profession I can attest that lawyers are often complete idiots.  Up to and including judges.

I've had one decision reversed on appeal by a new appeal judge because "I wasn't persuasive enough".  Rather than have any knowledge of how law works, and sit down and determine if I erred in my fact finding to invalidly arrive at my legal conclusion, this bonehead reverses under the guise that "well, I don't have time to figure out if he was correct in fact finding, but he wasn't persuasive enough".

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why you get complete shiat quality patents issued.

=================
"The law isn't justice. It's a very imperfect mechanism. If you press exactly the right buttons and are also lucky, justice may show up in the answer. A mechanism is all the law was ever intended to be."

   --Raymond Chandler


I was recently talking to a lawyer and he was explaining a legal mechanism to me.

I stopped him and said something along the lines of "that's not rational, it's a rationalization. It starts with the premise that the accused is guilty and invents a process from end to beginning based on the assumption of wrongdoing"

He didn't get it, he just saw it as the process he was supposed to follow and if it's the process, it must be fair, right?
 
2013-08-09 02:07:34 PM  
I'm getting a chuckle over this.

Around here the parks close at 11:00pm. On a few occasions I have passed a patrol car while out on a late-evening walk or bicycle ride. They will wave hello or occasionally ask me if everything is ok, but not once have they asked what I was doing or pointed that the park was closed.

I think they're more interested in the activities of those who occasionally damage property or loudly disrupt the peace of people who live near the parks, than they are in the exercise of a middle-aged farker.
 
2013-08-09 02:49:42 PM  

Thingster: I was recently talking to a lawyer and he was explaining a legal mechanism to me.

I stopped him and said something along the lines of "that's not rational, it's a rationalization. It starts with the premise that the accused is guilty and invents a process from end to beginning based on the assumption of wrongdoing"


That's a great story, but without knowing the particular issue your observation is useless.

There are plenty of legal situations where one side has the burden to show why they are entitled to relief at all. In other words, they start off losing and need to prove why they should win. Take a claim of self defense... your starting position is "I did those things that would be a crime," and you then have to show why you have an excuse under the law. Same with an alibi defense... it is assumed you don't have one unless you prove you do. You can't just say "I wasn't there" and suddenly the other side has to disprove that.
 
2013-08-09 02:55:42 PM  
Seriously how man thousands of dollars have the wasted defending a $50 fine?  let it go man let it go.
 
2013-08-09 03:01:28 PM  

garandman1a: Precedence.

We cannot allow a precedent be set that says someone is innocent until proven guilty.


Exactly.  The city doesn't want a defense on record.  It's not the $50, it's all the other $50s.

capt.hollister: I'm getting a chuckle over this.

Around here the parks close at 11:00pm. On a few occasions I have passed a patrol car while out on a late-evening walk or bicycle ride. They will wave hello or occasionally ask me if everything is ok, but not once have they asked what I was doing or pointed that the park was closed.

I think they're more interested in the activities of those who occasionally damage property or loudly disrupt the peace of people who live near the parks, than they are in the exercise of a middle-aged farker.


I'm not surprised.  Such laws exist to let the cops deal with troublemakers.  Don't make trouble and decent cops will likely leave you alone.
 
2013-08-09 03:03:35 PM  
Under the signature of Legal Intern Joseph Tuck and Supervising Attorney Sharmila Rampersaud.

going to go out on a limb and assume they're using this to give an intern experience with minimum risk.
 
2013-08-09 03:44:16 PM  
  You can't just say "I wasn't there" and suddenly the other side has to disprove that.


Absolutely they should.

I'm telling you I wasn't there, if you don't believe me, then it's on you to prove I'm lying.

Burden of proof is on the accuser, if you don't think what I'm saying is true, then you prove it.
 
2013-08-09 04:19:49 PM  

mike_d85: Cheron: garandman1a: Precedence.

We cannot allow a precedent be set that says someone is innocent until proven guilty.

Option A: Consistently and conspicuously post the closing time
Option B: Fight anyone who uses the haphazard signage as a defense
/it isn't their money being spent

They already did option A.
The sign beside the employee locker room say exactly what time each individual service of the park closes.  It's in perfectly legible 18-point font 2 feet wide and 4 feet tall.  It's not their fault that parkgoers dont enter the park, go to the southwest quadrant, past the fallen tree, between those two hedges, up the 20 foot path inaccessable by wheelchair, across the ditch and to the employee only building. It was POSTED.


Was it the one with the sign on the door saying 'beware of the leopard'?
 
2013-08-10 08:05:40 PM  

grimlock1972: Seriously how man thousands of dollars have the wasted defending a $50 fine?  let it go man let it go.


Thousands? The lawyer who appealed it is still in school, so he's either an unpaid intern or at most making $18,000 a year, and he probably won't even show for this hearing either. My guess is that he was supposed to go, knew he'd get in deep shiat if anyone found out he didn't, and this is his way of attempting to cover it up. Normally that might fly, but he farked over someone who made his day absolute hell. It's probably not the first time he's blown off these things, it's just the first time it's gone so wrong.

Even when you include the judge's and court's time, it's still in the low tens of dollars because so many other people are tried at once.
 
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