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(Miami Herald)   Maybe it's time we stop referring to tasers as 'non'-lethal   (miamiherald.com) divider line 176
    More: Scary, Mount Sinai Hospital, Miami Beach, Taser  
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6456 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Aug 2013 at 8:39 PM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-09 12:54:25 AM
Why don't they just use a whip instead of a taser?
 
2013-08-09 01:03:05 AM

Greywar: As a shop owner I have one comment for a vandal dying by misadventure while committing a crime:

Good


You sure are annoying for somebody who thinks it's good that annoying people are put to death.
 
2013-08-09 01:10:26 AM
Most police departments allow the use of an ECD (Taser) at the level of active physical resistance. Active physical resistance includes evasive movements to defeat an officer's attempt at control; this include bracing, tensing, pushing, pulling and running or trying to keep the officer from getting close enough to affect an arrest. If you run, a taser will put a quick stop to the chase vs. tackling an offender and then having to wrestle them until you can handcuff them.

I've personally tased two men. The first was running and when we caught up to him he was fighting to get away. He was tased as he charged me after pulling away from my partner. He was 6'2, 250lbs and drunk.  The second was a burglar who I chased for about 50 feet before I put an end to the chase. He was like 5'8, 220lbs. It was safer to end the chase with a taser than get into a fight. Both times the taser did its job and was used within the use of force guidelines of my department.

The taser is not an alternative to a gun or for use against a subject armed with a gun. Taser loses to gun because the person with the gun can kill you. Also, if you tase someone with a gun, they might spasm their hand closed and fire off some rounds. Deadly force is met with deadly force. A gun, knife, bat, machete, crowbar, pipe or potentially deadly weapon pointed at an officer will get you a gun pointed at your face or several bits of lead in your center mass.

The tasing was justified to end the foot chase, the outcome was the offender's fault. Police respond to your actions. Those officers didn't make that young man run, he chose to run and the officers acted accordingly to out an end to the resistance. It's a shame he died, but his actions dictated what occurred.
 
2013-08-09 01:28:04 AM

Dog Man: The tasing was justified to end the foot chase, the outcome was the offender's fault. Police respond to your actions. Those officers didn't make that young man run, he chose to run and the officers acted accordingly to out an end to the resistance. It's a shame he died, but his actions dictated what occurred.


Hey if he was being chased by zimmerman, he would have been just as dead.
The question is NOT did the police follow proceedures, blah blah blah.
The question is How long will we allow this to continue?
Why are police allowed to kill someone like this?
What would the effect been of letting the "bad" guy get away?

The property damage was already done. The cost of clean up was already incurred.
Why was their a rush to apprehend?
Why do the police come in shooting, rather than call a negotiator and wait out a bad guy?
Why did Waco happen, rather than starve them out?
etc etc etc

bah
 
2013-08-09 01:31:18 AM

Gyrfalcon: They were also never intended (except ditto) to be used as handy methods of enforcing compliance. They were originally meant to be used--as the "less-lethal" tag might imply--as an alternative to firing a gun.


I disagree.

That how y'all sold them to the public, but they were always intended as a means of non-judicial punishment for contempt of cop and similar offenses.
 
2013-08-09 01:31:35 AM

Vector R: I'd seen another article without that tidbit


Probably because no one believes "he's coming right at us!" when the guy is half the size of just one of the people involved.
 
2013-08-09 01:34:11 AM

snuff3r: You know, i would have felt some sympathy had I not read that he was involved in Graffiti. I have assholes graffiti my walls all the time and though obviously i don't believe capital punishment is the solution i certainly don't care of they get killed in the process if there was no intention to kill them.

Having said that, i disagree with state thugs carrying tasers. Horrible devices.


Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.
 
2013-08-09 01:37:34 AM

vrax: tortilla burger: I hope criminals start using tasers as defence against cops. That would really stir up the pot. If the cop lives, then great - it's a nonlethal weapon. If he dies, that's great too -- because current legal precedent says you didn't murder the guy. The tables aren't so pretty when they're turned, are they?

They certainly could charge someone with assault, but it would be really interesting if they tried for attempted murder or murder.  I don't see how they could do it without setting precedent that would forever be used against them.


Felony murder rule, actually.  Assault on on Officer is a felony, so even an unintended death leads to Murder 1.

Assault by an Officer on a civilian isn't illegal, so it isn't comparable.
 
2013-08-09 01:39:24 AM
Litterbox -

   I rarely guess out loud
   but? i'd guess not cocaine but perhaps heart/bp issues - knowing this PD? perhaps closed trauma
   we'll see
 
2013-08-09 01:47:45 AM

Dl_white_power: berylman: Tranquilizer darts and blowguns need to make a comeback. Can't be any worse.

I can see the PD shooting 80 darts, hitting everyone but the perp.
/weapons qualifications should be quarterly.

Monthly

FTFY
 
2013-08-09 01:53:36 AM

Litterbox: Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.


There are over two million people in Chicago, and CPD used their TASERS 836 times in 2011.

You apparently work in a city with 18,000 people where your Department Tases 2% of its population each year.

That's farked up.
 
2013-08-09 01:55:01 AM

way south: Its called "less than lethal" for a reason, and often it isn't.
The cops lost their sense of perspective on this crime and the kid paid for it with his life.


Pretty damn much.

When I was bouncing, management was willing to throw in some cash for pepper spray and other toys, and the team turned them down. Weapons can be taken from you in a crowd and used against you, plus with sprays there is the chance of folks who have breathing issues, asthma, or allergies to go down, and go down hard. And not in a controlled fashion. The most we relied on were maglights and Sharpies, because without some training, they harder to lose, and if lost, a hand load like those can be dangerous, but less so than say a truncheon. At most the Maglights were to help come-alongs and simple joint applications, and even then, it was with care, because you don't want to snap fingers or accidentally hurt or kill someone with a blows to the head.

Most of the cops I've worked with were on the same page. Mind you, as security for a club, we had a responsibility to protect ALL our patrons, even the drunk or high ones. Police do get in much more dire situations, but tasering a tagger? Really? Property damage isn't on the same par with preventing assault or subduing someone who becoming violent. Tasering a tagger is rucking fecockulous. Yes, it would look bad if a kid outran you, but resorting to a weapon on someone armed with a spraypaint is more than damn silly.
 
2013-08-09 01:58:42 AM

namatad: Dog Man: The tasing was justified to end the foot chase, the outcome was the offender's fault. Police respond to your actions. Those officers didn't make that young man run, he chose to run and the officers acted accordingly to out an end to the resistance. It's a shame he died, but his actions dictated what occurred.

Hey if he was being chased by zimmerman, he would have been just as dead.
The question is NOT did the police follow proceedures, blah blah blah.
The question is How long will we allow this to continue?
Why are police allowed to kill someone like this?
What would the effect been of letting the "bad" guy get away?

The property damage was already done. The cost of clean up was already incurred.
Why was their a rush to apprehend?
Why do the police come in shooting, rather than call a negotiator and wait out a bad guy?
Why did Waco happen, rather than starve them out?
etc etc etc

bah


It will be a long while before you convince society to tell cops not to chase fleeing suspects.

I am not altogether against the idea, mind you, but it really is the opposite of what most want from police.

It sounds like you wouldn't want the police chasing and tackling someone in this situation either - especially if/when without catching the person they wouldn't have evidence to convict.

Any chasing could easily result in physical harm that we would mostly agree outweighs a non-violemt crime like this (ie, zero physical harm is the appriate punishmemt).

How about speeding? If I steal a car but it hasn't been declared stolen, should I get a free drive-away to prevent my speeding infraction and subsequent chase from resulting in my death?
 
2013-08-09 02:01:20 AM

fnordfocus: Litterbox: Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.

There are over two million people in Chicago, and CPD used their TASERS 836 times in 2011.

You apparently work in a city with 18,000 people where your Department Tases 2% of its population each year.

That's farked up.


In fairness, despite our turning down non-lethals, we all did undergo training with them, and that included getting shocked, getting pepper sprayed, and the like. And they all suck with varying degrees of sucktitude. The issue here isn't just how he was hit, or why, but how he was treated. You leave someone in a heap following a shock, that's not good. The cops may be saying that they tased him to avoid physical confrontation, but we are talking about a graffiti artist, not a college linebacker on a coke and redbull binge.
 
2013-08-09 02:07:05 AM
hubiestubert: Really? Property damage isn't on the same par with preventing assault or subduing someone who becoming violent. Tasering a tagger is rucking fecockulous. Yes, it would look bad if a kid outran you, but resorting to a weapon on someone armed with a spraypaint is more than damn silly.


TY for this

I really cant stress enough how parts of this area - Miami Beach/Wynwood - are aligned with young people (16-20's) interested in food and art. Sometimes they play "fast and loose" with food trucks, pop-up restaurants, wall art...
The business in question was vacant and the cost would have been less than a wrongful death suit...
 
2013-08-09 02:07:24 AM

OscarTamerz: [media.miamiherald.com image 480x640]


This picture screams, "I'm an artsy fartsy little high school biatch who's just found meth or as my friends call it tina and between committing acts of misdemeanor vandalism and acts of sodomy I don't make the best decisions in the world like running at groups of heavily armed cops while high and being placed under arrest."  Of course having a toxicology profile like Jim Morrison's won't deter any libertards from declaring the Taser killed him.


Why did he deserve to die more than you?
 
2013-08-09 02:12:05 AM

The_Time_Master: OscarTamerz: [media.miamiherald.com image 480x640]


This picture screams, "I'm an artsy fartsy little high school biatch who's just found meth or as my friends call it tina and between committing acts of misdemeanor vandalism and acts of sodomy I don't make the best decisions in the world like running at groups of heavily armed cops while high and being placed under arrest."  Of course having a toxicology profile like Jim Morrison's won't deter any libertards from declaring the Taser killed him.

Why did he deserve to die more than you?


In certain, older versions of this culture, his is the sort of attitude that eventually has someone demand satisfaction on the field of honor...
 
2013-08-09 02:18:02 AM
oscar: This picture screams, "I'm an artsy fartsy little high school biatch who's just found meth or as my friends call it tina and between committing acts of misdemeanor vandalism and acts of sodomy I don't make the best decisions in the world like running at groups of heavily armed cops while high and being placed under arrest."  Of course having a toxicology profile like Jim Morrison's won't deter any libertards from declaring the Taser killed him.


Let's hope, someday, should fate throw you an unexpected death and leave your story to reporters, that you aren't judged by strangers who live far from where you did and want to assume the worst - and share that assumption - with many more strangers. You should have some dignity.
Let's hope that your unexpected death isn't because you committed a misdemeanor
Lets hope you don't have an older sister who loved you and has access to the web, too
 
2013-08-09 02:19:18 AM

Litterbox: snuff3r: You know, i would have felt some sympathy had I not read that he was involved in Graffiti. I have assholes graffiti my walls all the time and though obviously i don't believe capital punishment is the solution i certainly don't care of they get killed in the process if there was no intention to kill them.

Having said that, i disagree with state thugs carrying tasers. Horrible devices.

Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.


I'm all for LTL weaponry being issued to police, don't get me wrong. But any cop who gets in front of me and tells me that it's a tool that saves lives and then turns around to say that having a Taser pointed at them is justification to shoot somebody has just dropped completely off the list of people who I'd ever do a favor for. Ever. No statements, no questions answered, no aid rendered.

I've had my Edison cherry popped too, I know what it's like. And it's a serious weapon. I didn't carry one because it wouldn't do ME any good to use it if things went pear shaped, I don't have backup on the way or a dispatcher to send help. Police officers have Glock, Motorola, the Justice system and a whole brotherhood of people with the same to back them up. Pain compliance methods, hand to hand training, verbal judo, physical restraints, capsaicin, night sticks, nunchaku (in more and more PDs, yes), sap gloves, batons, you show me a picture of the contents of your average duty bag and I'll show you a picture of what would normally be considered ITG porn by the majority of folks looking at it if it were posted by non LEO people. Police officers have a metric assload of tools available to them to handle dangerous situations, and they're supposed to be the ones who gauge how dangerous a situation is.

The original justification for issuing Tasers (which stands for Thomas A Swift's Electric RIFLE, BTW) was to handle situations where somebody was a lethal threat but could be handled at range. Meth head with knife, roid rager with a bat, things like that. That was the original marketing scheme by Taser itself. "A second to last resort."

Man the fark up and treat it for what it is, a less than lethal GUN. Use your spray, jam your thumb behind his ear, and learn how to manhandle. I'm 5'10" and 180 lbs, just as trained if not moreso than you and I highly doubt I would have even needed help getting this twerp on the ground and in cuffs. You pussies need to start holding yourself accountable and realize that those duty issue Tasers are worn in very similar looking holsters as your duty pistol for a reason. Many PDs have UOF investigations every time a pistol leaves a holster, it should damn well be that way for Tasers too.
 
2013-08-09 02:27:11 AM

fnordfocus: Litterbox: Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.

There are over two million people in Chicago, and CPD used their TASERS 836 times in 2011.

You apparently work in a city with 18,000 people where your Department Tases 2% of its population each year.

That's farked up.


I live in San Antonio.  Our city and surrounding county is close to 2 million.  My statement included our jail which is the 16th largest in the nation.  Inmates are Tased regularly.  I know this because I deal with it.  Regardless of the numbers, the point is that the chances of someone dying after being Tased is extremely low.  Matter of fact, I dont know of anyone who has actually died from being Tased.  When I took the Taser training, we were told that 1:100,000 *might* have a chance at having something go wrong medically.

Past all this, there is a huge misunderstanding where the Taser comes into play.  Use of Force is something that every police officer and correctional officer has to deal with.  Cops and correctional officers need these tools in their toolbags as intermediate weapons and something other than batons, ASP's and other items which can inflict permanent or deadly results.  There is a specific continuum on use of force, however, the force you use is not set in concrete and what you use to meet force is fluid and will change depending on circumstances and other variables.  As police officers, we are not expected to engage in prolonged combat with someone.  We are expected to resolve the situation as safely as possible for all parties.
 
2013-08-09 02:36:19 AM

Litterbox: fnordfocus: Litterbox: Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.

There are over two million people in Chicago, and CPD used their TASERS 836 times in 2011.

You apparently work in a city with 18,000 people where your Department Tases 2% of its population each year.

That's farked up.

I live in San Antonio.  Our city and surrounding county is close to 2 million.  My statement included our jail which is the 16th largest in the nation.  Inmates are Tased regularly.  I know this because I deal with it.  Regardless of the numbers, the point is that the chances of someone dying after being Tased is extremely low.  Matter of fact, I dont know of anyone who has actually died from being Tased.  When I took the Taser training, we were told that 1:100,000 *might* have a chance at having something go wrong medically.

Past all this, there is a huge misunderstanding where the Taser comes into play.  Use of Force is something that every police officer and correctional officer has to deal with.  Cops and correctional officers need these tools in their toolbags as intermediate weapons and something other than batons, ASP's and other items which can inflict permanent or deadly results.  There is a specific continuum on use of force, however, the force you use is not set in concrete and what you use to meet force is fluid and will change depending on circumstances and other variables.  As police officers, we are not expected to engage in prolonged combat with someone.  We are expected to resolve the situation as safely as possible for all parties.


And you think that tasering a teenager who was spray painting as his big crime de jour, meets those requirements? Really?
 
2013-08-09 02:37:51 AM
iq_in_binary:

I'm all for LTL weaponry being issued to police, don't get me wrong. But any cop who gets in front of me and tells me that it's a tool that saves lives and then turns around to say that having a Taser pointed at them is justification to shoot somebody has just dropped completely off the list of people who I'd ever do a favor for. Ever. No statements, no questions answered, no aid rendered.

I was trying to make a point about safety of the device.  With all the cops being Tased for the benefit of training, I don't believe there has ever been a fatality.  The "justification" comes when the person is not complying with you, is fighting you, is assaulting someone etc.  The Taser is very effective most of the time.


I've had my Edison cherry popped too, I know what it's like. And it's a serious weapon. I didn't carry one because it wouldn't do ME any good to use it if things went pear shaped, I don't have backup on the way or a dispatcher to send help. Police officers have Glock, Motorola, the Justice system and a whole brotherhood of people with the same to back them up. Pain compliance methods, hand to hand training, verbal judo, physical restraints, capsaicin, night sticks, nunchaku (in more and more PDs, yes), sap gloves, batons, you show me a picture of the contents of your average duty bag and I'll show you a picture of what would normally be considered ITG porn by the majority of folks looking at it if it were posted by non LEO p ...


Im thankful for having a Taser as a tool.  Its very presence in situations has helped resolve them.  Simply displaying the Taser is often all it takes to gain compliance.  My department only allows ASP's, OC and Tasers.  No nunchaku, no night sticks, PR24 etc. Pain compliance is a joke for the most part...its difficult to stay proficient with all that and you better hope the guy you are using it on has a pain threshold.  Some mental people Ive dealt with don't.  Same with OC.  Sap gloves will get you a lawsuit here although some of the oldtimers still carry them. 

Ill wager that this kid died from either a drug issue or some kind of undiagnosed medical issue.
 
2013-08-09 02:43:25 AM
hubiestubert: And you think that tasering a teenager who was spray painting as his big crime de jour, meets those requirements? Really?

I never said that.  From what I understand of this event, he ran and then allegedly attacked an officer.  He got Tased because he was not complying with the officers while being arrested, not because he was spraypainting.  Lets look at it another way...what if there were no Taser here and the cops got into a fistfight with this kid or something else happens that didnt need to.  Its unfortunate that he died, but the Taser had little to nothing to do with that.
 
2013-08-09 02:44:56 AM
I can't believe sap gloves are being trotted out as a police option at all. Seems like the dexterity loss would mean you wouldn't go into a situation with them on. Then what do you do, call for a time out to equip yourself?

/never worn a pair, but even thin gloves make shooting a pistol somewhat annoying.
 
2013-08-09 02:45:53 AM

Smackledorfer: I can't believe sap gloves are being trotted out as a police option at all. Seems like the dexterity loss would mean you wouldn't go into a situation with them on. Then what do you do, call for a time out to equip yourself?

/never worn a pair, but even thin gloves make shooting a pistol somewhat annoying.


sap gloves are from the 80's-90's, at least around here.
 
2013-08-09 03:08:21 AM

Litterbox: iq_in_binary:

I'm all for LTL weaponry being issued to police, don't get me wrong. But any cop who gets in front of me and tells me that it's a tool that saves lives and then turns around to say that having a Taser pointed at them is justification to shoot somebody has just dropped completely off the list of people who I'd ever do a favor for. Ever. No statements, no questions answered, no aid rendered.

I was trying to make a point about safety of the device.  With all the cops being Tased for the benefit of training, I don't believe there has ever been a fatality.  The "justification" comes when the person is not complying with you, is fighting you, is assaulting someone etc.  The Taser is very effective most of the time.


I've had my Edison cherry popped too, I know what it's like. And it's a serious weapon. I didn't carry one because it wouldn't do ME any good to use it if things went pear shaped, I don't have backup on the way or a dispatcher to send help. Police officers have Glock, Motorola, the Justice system and a whole brotherhood of people with the same to back them up. Pain compliance methods, hand to hand training, verbal judo, physical restraints, capsaicin, night sticks, nunchaku (in more and more PDs, yes), sap gloves, batons, you show me a picture of the contents of your average duty bag and I'll show you a picture of what would normally be considered ITG porn by the majority of folks looking at it if it were posted by non LEO p ...

Im thankful for having a Taser as a tool.  Its very presence in situations has helped resolve them.  Simply displaying the Taser is often all it takes to gain compliance.  My department only allows ASP's, OC and Tasers.  No nunchaku, no night sticks, PR24 etc. Pain compliance is a joke for the most part...its difficult to stay proficient with all that and you better hope the guy you are using it on has a pain threshold.  Some mental people Ive dealt with don't.  Same with OC.  Sap gloves will get you a lawsuit here al ...


I've read that you're from San Antonio, I'm surprised they care about sap gloves but then again I know TX is strangely more strict about CCW and weapon laws than even "liberal" Colorado.

No, that's not my point. My point is: IT'S YOUR JOB. Proficiency, training, practice and evaluation should be at LEAST %15 of your duty hours. I want my cops well trained, well educated, well paid, well taken care of and to reap the professionalism that damn well should come along with those incentives. You damn well better keep up proficiency on pain compliance. You farking better put at least 100 rounds through that duty pistol a week and be given shiat if you aren't qualifying.

But that's a rant for another time. You have a shield. In the state of Texas you have a statewide and pretty damn well wide ranging set of rights granted to you as an LEO. You get to do a TON of things legally in the pursuit of conserving the peace that nobody else does. You better treat it with respect, and you better hold yourself to a higher standard, both physically and mentally, in order to use those rights and duties in the best interest of the people while doing as little harm as possible.

I won't argue your point with the prisons, sorry right there is a tailor made application for Tasers, extreme close quarters sucks when they're CONFINED extreme close quarters. I know, I'm the guy that nobody wants to get into the box with on situational night. I view that as a good use of the Taser.

This situation? No. Wide open space? No weapons? That's not justifiable, in fact it is so asinine that were I on the UOF panel I'd recommend suspension and probation. You're an LEO with a partner on scene. Break out the elbow grease and go to work, it's surprisingly easy when someone is there to help. Or to do it yourself if you're even halfway worth your salt. This was a KID, getting cuffs on him should be considered not just trivial but something you see a suspension for if you fail to do it with as many resources as you had available to you.

My problem isn't with the use of a Taser, my problem is the asinine way in which it was used.
 
2013-08-09 03:15:05 AM

fnordfocus: vrax: tortilla burger: I hope criminals start using tasers as defence against cops. That would really stir up the pot. If the cop lives, then great - it's a nonlethal weapon. If he dies, that's great too -- because current legal precedent says you didn't murder the guy. The tables aren't so pretty when they're turned, are they?

They certainly could charge someone with assault, but it would be really interesting if they tried for attempted murder or murder.  I don't see how they could do it without setting precedent that would forever be used against them.

Felony murder rule, actually.  Assault on on Officer is a felony, so even an unintended death leads to Murder 1.

Assault by an Officer on a civilian isn't illegal, so it isn't comparable.


So, no evidence, just instant guilty verdict?
 
2013-08-09 03:16:28 AM

Mambo Bananapatch: Greywar: As a shop owner I have one comment for a vandal dying by misadventure while committing a crime:

Good

You sure are annoying for somebody who thinks it's good that annoying people are put to death.


Probably one of the ones who wants Major Nidal Hasan tortured to death even before his trial because hey he's a filthy Mooslimb who killed American soldiers so why not.
 
2013-08-09 03:30:24 AM
Maybe it's time we stop calling the thugs in blue "police"
 
2013-08-09 03:30:57 AM

iq_in_binary: My problem isn't with the use of a Taser, my problem is the asinine way in which it was used.


Well, that is the key issue these days.  "What, you said no to me?!" *ttssszzzzzzttttt*  It's like that guy on the bus from the other day.  They are used way, way too often as replacement for patience and simple physical control.  Can you imagine if this old classic had happened here?! http://youtu.be/UuFWItwakSY  The dude would have been lit up like a Christmas tree at the very least and then probably charged with attempted murder.
 
2013-08-09 03:31:08 AM

Gyrfalcon: Mambo Bananapatch: Greywar: As a shop owner I have one comment for a vandal dying by misadventure while committing a crime:

Good

You sure are annoying for somebody who thinks it's good that annoying people are put to death.

Probably one of the ones who wants Major Nidal Hasan tortured to death even before his trial because hey he's a filthy Mooslimb who killed American soldiers so why not.


I'm of the mind that it would have been a much preferable outcome for him to be shot to death by the armed soldiers on base.

I'm also of the mind that if you have concerns about a soldier being armed on base, he shouldn't be a soldier. Also that if your soldiers have concerns about being disarmed on base and you ordered it anyway, you shouldn't be an officer. It's a farking BASE. That's the entire point.

But that's just me.
 
2013-08-09 03:47:22 AM
Meanwhile, unlike the German cop in the above video, here's a cop from my neck of the woods response to a similar "threat": http://youtu.be/GPRv0hXOVC0   Typical cop aggression.  Just yell and threaten instead of trying to talk and deescalate.
 
2013-08-09 04:30:37 AM
Worthwhile human being killed by gang of worthless thugs.  Since when is this news?
 
GBB
2013-08-09 06:05:28 AM

iq_in_binary: My problem isn't with the use of a Taser, my problem is the asinine way in which it was used.


Properly?
 
2013-08-09 06:38:38 AM

vpb: Zombie Butler:

No, no he's right.  When, in the line of duty, a police officer uses less-lethal force to "subdue" a person expressing himself on a wall (which human beings have been doing since we had walls. In fact, it's odd that we insist on perfectly clean walls in this society.) and he/she accidentally murders the youth then the officer should loose his/her badge and face other consequences. Bad choices = bad outcomes amiright?

See what I mean?  A piece of shiat criminal has a heart attack and it's "murder".


Yeah because paint on a wall should = a death sentence by a over zealous cop?

It was five on one they couldn't take him down without using a Taser. I also believe the high five story as I have personally seen cops do it after tazing a guy.
 
2013-08-09 07:11:11 AM

iq_in_binary: Gyrfalcon: Mambo Bananapatch: Greywar: As a shop owner I have one comment for a vandal dying by misadventure while committing a crime:

Good

You sure are annoying for somebody who thinks it's good that annoying people are put to death.

Probably one of the ones who wants Major Nidal Hasan tortured to death even before his trial because hey he's a filthy Mooslimb who killed American soldiers so why not.

I'm of the mind that it would have been a much preferable outcome for him to be shot to death by the armed soldiers on base.

I'm also of the mind that if you have concerns about a soldier being armed on base, he shouldn't be a soldier. Also that if your soldiers have concerns about being disarmed on base and you ordered it anyway, you shouldn't be an officer. It's a farking BASE. That's the entire point.

But that's just me.


Almost nobody on a base (in the US) is armed outside of MPs. Weapons, even personal ones, are generally required to be stored in the armory.
 
2013-08-09 07:11:52 AM

Nhojwolfe: Yeah because paint on a wall should = a death sentence by a over zealous cop?


Yeah because...
a) police see person committing minor crime, that person resists arrest, and police try to subdue that person using a method which very rarely kills, and
b) police see person committing minor crime, decide the penalty is death, and then enact that punishment
... are TOTALLY the same thing.
 
2013-08-09 07:12:27 AM
I hate that it happened but a fleeing and resisting suspect is pretty much like the textbook example of when TO use a taser
 
2013-08-09 07:42:20 AM

LiberalConservative: Nhojwolfe: Yeah because paint on a wall should = a death sentence by a over zealous cop?

Yeah because...
a) police see person committing minor crime, that person resists arrest, and police try to subdue that person using a method which very rarely kills, and
b) police see person committing minor crime, decide the penalty is death, and then enact that punishment
... are TOTALLY the same thing.


In this case yes it was. My point is tasers are over used. And defended by people who don't want to do their job properly are maybe they are not properly trained.
 
2013-08-09 07:55:53 AM
image.com.com

Officer dash cam footage
 
2013-08-09 08:02:54 AM
Its time we stop referring to gawkers as bystandars.  They're called principal witnesses and in the case of cop-on-suspect murder they're also called enforcement.
 
2013-08-09 08:21:39 AM
First, he shouldn't have been vandalizing.
Second, he shouldn't have run.

It's his own damn fault, cops were right in this case.
 
2013-08-09 08:58:18 AM
They knew who he was... what the hell is the point of tasering him when they could meet him and home and/or subpoena him?!?

Let alone assault/murder him.  These are - at minimum - torture devises.  Obviously, at maximum the inflict painful, inhumane death.

fark these dickless police.
 
2013-08-09 08:59:09 AM

scottydoesntknow: lordargent: // which is what makes the rock-it launcher in fallout so much fun

For most things, yes. It still doesn't explain how a teddy bear can gib someone.

Now I'm wondering how fast would you have to fire a teddy bear to make it lethal.


Mass * velocity = x

Where x is the energy delivered.

The human ribcage takes around 400lbs of force to crack, head shot will take around 40lbs of force to start farking things up (like instant ko) get above 60 and you can start breaking necks.

So for a 1lb teddy bear you'd need 300 fps at the target to go lethal. Figure a bleed off of 25fps per 10 feet for the less than ideal shape of the bear and you'd need around 600 fps to have any sort of range. The other thing to consider are the energy absorbing properties of stuffing. Might wanna add in some sort of lead shot in a pouch to ensure a lethal transfer of energy into a small enough target area.

I've done the hard part now go look up pneumatic potato launchers and find one that fits our needs.
 
2013-08-09 09:04:41 AM

Kiwimann: Zombie Butler:  When, in the line of duty, a police officer uses less-lethal force to "subdue" a person expressing himself on a wall (which human beings have been doing since we had walls.

He was subdued for fleeing arrest.


In and of itself, that's a farking waste of time and life.
 
2013-08-09 09:07:42 AM

Litterbox: hubiestubert: And you think that tasering a teenager who was spray painting as his big crime de jour, meets those requirements? Really?

I never said that.  From what I understand of this event, he ran and then allegedly attacked an officer.  He got Tased because he was not complying with the officers while being arrested, not because he was spraypainting.  Lets look at it another way...what if there were no Taser here and the cops got into a fistfight with this kid or something else happens that didnt need to.  Its unfortunate that he died, but the Taser had little to nothing to do with that.


In a way, you're right: it's not about the taser itself. It's about the over-reaction and use of force on a teenager who was tagging. Much like if someone got a beat down and died as a result of breathing complications after being cuffed and restrained after running from an officer for jaywalking. The investiture and the use of force that was appropriate is the issue. NOT the device itself. I understand their use, and I understand their place in an inventory to allow officers some leeway when confronted with folks in the field. That use is also predicated on the officer using some f*cking judgment about the use of force. The officers went for the taser as a go to, as opposed using some sense. They got tired, they got angry about running, and they got angry about a bullsh*t call to have to run down a kid with a spray paint can, and as a result, their judgment was skewed and they decided "screw this kid, he's getting to juice because he made my ass run." That this kid died only illustrates the string of poor chain of judgment calls here.

And defending folks for making a string of poor calls is what folks are reacting to. Not the taser. Not their mere presence or existence, but that the officers in question made a bad call, that got someone killed, and that alone should be enough for folks who have some experience with the damn things, or police work in general.
 
2013-08-09 09:12:10 AM

Gyrfalcon: Tasers were never intended (except possibly by Taser, Inc.) to be "non-lethal". They've always properly been called less-than-lethal or other-than-lethal.

They were also never intended (except ditto) to be used as handy methods of enforcing compliance. They were originally meant to be used--as the "less-lethal" tag might imply--as an alternative to firing a gun. In other words, the Taser was meant to replace a bullet, so that the bad guy could be taken down and might not die in a situation where lethal force was the only other possible alternative. But clearly killing the suspect was still POSSIBLE when using a Taser, so it was not meant to be used except when the only other option was DEFINITELY killing the suspect.

Then it started being used instead of the PR-24, because it was perceived--by police and the public--as being less brutal, mostly because it didn't leave any visible marks; that was post-70's demonstrations, when the public was tired of seeing kids beaten into bloody pulp by blue-clad minions of Mayor Daly. Then along came the Taser, which SEEMED to offer a method of subduing noncompliant suspects without having to physically beat them, disregarding the fact that 50,000 volts of electricity was NEVER MEANT to be used that way.

Tasers were handed to cops basically as an alternative to batons and guns; lost in the translation was the idea that they shouldn't be using ANY of them unless they really really needed to. I know as well as anyone that it can be very difficult to restrain a stubborn, drunk or psycho suspect; that said, most of your suspects are not so drunk or resistant that merely going hands-on will not produce the desired result. But the public perception is that bruises = POLICE BRUTALITY while (so far) Tasers = no marks = not brutality. That's slowly changing, I hope.

It would be nice if all cops had the time and patience to politely talk even the most psycho drugged out killer into the back of a police car without ever having to touch him--that will never happen of course. In a more realistic vein, it would be better if a) Tasers were removed from all cops unless or until b) they can receive the correct training for when and how to use them: To wit, they're lethal weapons to be used only when a bullet would be used. And c) use of a Taser should be treated as use of a firearm for administrative purposes and any cop who uses one should be subject to the same post-incident investigations. And the public needs training too, that Tasers are not "non-lethal." Even if that means taking on Taser, Inc.


So much this. Slapjacks are also a viable alternative to a taser - very little force required great compliance tool.

Pr-24's are bulky as sin. With all the stuff on a bat belt right now the tazer is even bulkier than the slapjack the only issue is then you have to close to contact range.
 
2013-08-09 09:22:15 AM

iq_in_binary: Litterbox: snuff3r: You know, i would have felt some sympathy had I not read that he was involved in Graffiti. I have assholes graffiti my walls all the time and though obviously i don't believe capital punishment is the solution i certainly don't care of they get killed in the process if there was no intention to kill them.

Having said that, i disagree with state thugs carrying tasers. Horrible devices.

Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.

I'm all for LTL weaponry being issued to police, don't get me wrong. But any cop who gets in front of me and tells me that it's a tool that saves lives and then turns around to say that having a Taser pointed at them is justification to shoot somebody has just dropped completely off the list of people who I'd ever do a favor for. Ever. No statements, no questions answered, no aid rendered.

I've had my Edison cherry popped too, I know what it's like. And it's a serious weapon. I didn't carry one because it wouldn't do ME any good to use it if things went pear shaped, I don't have backup on the way or a dispatcher to send help. Police officers have Glock, Motorola, the Justice system and a whole brotherhood of people with the same to back them up. Pain compliance methods, hand to hand training, verbal judo, physical restraints, capsaicin, night sticks, nunchaku (in more and more PDs, yes), sap gloves, batons, you show me a picture of the contents of your average duty bag and I'll show you a picture of what would normally be considered ITG porn by the majority of folks looking at it if it were posted by non LEO p ...


That was awesome...

\not sarcastic
\\sounds like a good cop
\\\didn't think there could be such a thing anymore
 
2013-08-09 09:25:32 AM

Litterbox: hubiestubert: And you think that tasering a teenager who was spray painting as his big crime de jour, meets those requirements? Really?

I never said that.  From what I understand of this event, he ran and then allegedly attacked an officer.  He got Tased because he was not complying with the officers while being arrested, not because he was spraypainting.  Lets look at it another way...what if there were no Taser here and the cops got into a fistfight with this kid or something else happens that didnt need to.  Its unfortunate that he died, but the Taser had little to nothing to do with that.


thestupiditburns.jpg
itscominrightforus.jpg
 
2013-08-09 09:26:32 AM
cops are farking scumbags....nothing new here.
 
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