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(Miami Herald)   Maybe it's time we stop referring to tasers as 'non'-lethal   (miamiherald.com ) divider line
    More: Scary, Mount Sinai Hospital, Miami Beach, Taser  
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6498 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Aug 2013 at 8:39 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



176 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-08-08 06:55:34 PM  
They're certainly much less lethal than a .40 S&W
 
2013-08-08 07:01:33 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: They're certainly much less lethal than a .40 S&W


Can't argue with that
 
2013-08-08 07:29:22 PM  
Overzealous staffer, etc.
 
2013-08-08 07:44:41 PM  
It's not referred to as "non-lethal" in the first place.
 
2013-08-08 07:49:32 PM  
They're referred to as "less lethal" not "non-lethal" just like clubs, beanbag shot and rubber bullets.
 
2013-08-08 07:50:12 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: They're certainly much less lethal than a .40 S&W


Not this time.
 
2013-08-08 07:52:03 PM  
At just 17, Israel Hernández-Llach was already an award-winning artist, on the threshold of acclaim in Miami Beach art circles. He was a sculptor, painter, writer and photographer whose craft was inspired by his home country of Colombia and his adopted city, Miami.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/08/07/3548779/graffiti-artist-dies-af t er-tasering.html#storylink=cpy

Layin the bias on pretty thick there author. You'd think he was one week away from discovering a cure for cancer.

He was also a graffiti artist, known as "Reefa," who sprayed colorful splashes of paint on the city's abandoned buildings while playing cat-and-mouse with cops, who, like many property owners, consider graffiti taggers to be vandals, not artists.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/08/07/3548779/graffiti-artist-dies-af t er-tasering.html#storylink=cpy
Ahh so he's a vandal.

It does suck that he died from a single taser shot. No one deserves to die for graffiti, but he shouldn't have run. I highly doubt the cops thought the taser would kill the kid.

But if the cops actually high-fived, that's a real asshole move.
 
2013-08-08 08:22:13 PM  
said the officers exchanged high-fives and congratulations after Tasering him.

"He was on the ground and the cops were making jokes," said 19-year-old Thiago Souza.


Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/08/07/3548779/graffiti-artist-dies-af t er-tasering.html#storylink=cpy
Why isnt it legal to kill cops again??
No seriously.
He was spraying paint. PANIC.

In the end, cops will always be lethal.
At least they arent using clubs to beat people to death anymore. or as much ....
 
2013-08-08 08:43:14 PM  
They're referred to as 'non-lethal' by news media.

Other folks say 'less-than-lethal'.

// there's no such thing as non-lethal, given a large enough dose, or sufficient force or temperature.

// which is what makes the rock-it launcher in fallout so much fun
 
2013-08-08 08:44:45 PM  
Taser's lawyers are scarier than tasers.
 
2013-08-08 08:45:46 PM  

dr_blasto: They're referred to as "less lethal" not "non-lethal" just like clubs, beanbag shot and rubber bullets.


I've been assured in the Zimmerman threads that clubs, or flashlights that are marketed as clubs, are completely harmless.

So there's that.
 
2013-08-08 08:45:51 PM  

lordargent: // which is what makes the rock-it launcher in fallout so much fun


For most things, yes. It still doesn't explain how a teddy bear can gib someone.

Now I'm wondering how fast would you have to fire a teddy bear to make it lethal.
 
2013-08-08 08:50:18 PM  
Nobody deserves to die for petty vandalism. But stop romanticizing him. Taggers are like dogs pissing on fire hydrants except that taggers' mess is expensive to clean up
 
2013-08-08 08:50:42 PM  
scottydoesntknow: For most things, yes. It still doesn't explain how a teddy bear can gib someone. Now I'm wondering how fast would you have to fire a teddy bear to make it lethal.

Are the eyes plastic, or bundles of yarn?

What range does it need to be lethal at?
 
2013-08-08 08:50:52 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Doktor_Zhivago: They're certainly much less lethal than a .40 S&W

Can't argue with that


Yep, I'd rather be tased than shot or clubbed, any day of the week.

Personally I think cops are generally good, but I think there is a lack of accountability and a failure to punish those who abuse the public trust.
 
2013-08-08 08:53:10 PM  
Taser doesn't fark around when it comes to suggestions that their device is anything but harmless. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is drawing up a suit against subby and Drew as we speak.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2103450-taser-legal-team-takes-a-t ou gh-line-that-stuns-lawyers-and-ko-s-lawsuits/
 
2013-08-08 08:53:58 PM  

lordargent: scottydoesntknow: For most things, yes. It still doesn't explain how a teddy bear can gib someone. Now I'm wondering how fast would you have to fire a teddy bear to make it lethal.

Are the eyes plastic, or bundles of yarn?

What range does it need to be lethal at?


We need to write into Mythbusters about this. They could afford multiple bears and a launcher (probably compressed air). Have they ever done a video game?
 
2013-08-08 08:54:46 PM  

scottydoesntknow: Now I'm wondering how fast would you have to fire a teddy bear to make it lethal.


Depends if you properly soaked it in water and kept in the freezer overnight.
 
2013-08-08 08:56:08 PM  
Less-than-lethal is the term I usually hear.


Pretty much nobody with any sense says that these weapons are non-lethal. Even smoke grenades and pepper spray can be lethal against someone with respiratory problems.
 
2013-08-08 08:57:14 PM  
Oh yeah?  And maybe we should stop referring to your face as not beat to a pulp by my fists, subby.
 
2013-08-08 09:00:10 PM  
c85c7a.medialib.glogster.com
/oblig
 
2013-08-08 09:02:47 PM  
...or maybe it's time for artist^D^D^D^D^D^Dpunks to stop tagging buildings.

Death-by-taser is just another occupational hazard of being a graffiti artist.
 
2013-08-08 09:03:08 PM  
Cops use Tasers as punishment.  They are not used just to subdue unruly people, they are used to make you pay for inconveniencing them.
 
2013-08-08 09:03:17 PM  
Its called "less than lethal" for a reason, and often it isn't.
The cops lost their sense of perspective on this crime and the kid paid for it with his life.
 
2013-08-08 09:06:14 PM  
Yeah, read the article.  Very sorry he died, but he was committing vandalism and resisting arrest.

That's not to say that he in any way deserved to die, but you can draw a line of causality from the choices he made to the end that he met.   If he hadn't been vandalizing private property, he would be alive today.  If he hadn't tried to run away from the police who caught him vandalizing private property, he would also be alive today.

Bad choices can occasionally produce bad outcomes.
 
2013-08-08 09:06:26 PM  
Tranquilizer darts and blowguns need to make a comeback. Can't be any worse.
 
2013-08-08 09:13:22 PM  

rev. dave: Cops use Tasers as punishment.  They are not used just to subdue unruly people, they are used to make you pay for inconveniencing them.


Maybe we should just take away the Tasers and issue whips?
Maybe I shouldn't suggest this where it might give some police department ideas.
 
2013-08-08 09:13:45 PM  

berylman: Tranquilizer darts and blowguns need to make a comeback. Can't be any worse.


I am currently working on a prototype specifically for parents to use on their kids. Working name is ShaddupNGoToSleep.
 
2013-08-08 09:17:16 PM  

Mambo Bananapatch: Taser doesn't fark around when it comes to suggestions that their device is anything but harmless. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is drawing up a suit against subby and Drew as we speak.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2103450-taser-legal-team-takes-a-t ou gh-line-that-stuns-lawyers-and-ko-s-lawsuits/


WTF?!?
It has even filed a lawsuit demanding an Ohio coroner change her conclusion that a Taser was a contributing factor in the deaths of two men.

Is it even possible that a coroner can be ordered to change their report?
 
2013-08-08 09:17:40 PM  
My daughter is a tougher than expected target.

/Cuz she's fast like a marsupial.
//Hopefully not obscure.
 
2013-08-08 09:18:10 PM  

berylman: Tranquilizer darts and blowguns need to make a comeback. Can't be any worse.


f that, then you would have deaths from random OD because they had some grape fruit juice in their system or something...

bring back rubber bollas and net guns... or teach em to use a lasso.
 
2013-08-08 09:19:34 PM  
I've never heard the term less than lethal. Usually I hear the term "Less lethal." One word missing but a huge difference.

On other notes.
1. High fiving is a major dick move. It also means you are paying atrention to your fellow officers rather than the guy you just tasered.
2. If the damn kid showed so much promise why did he need to go vandalize buildings.
3. Schools need to start teaching kids that they won't change the world with art, but that they can change it by working their asses off.
 
2013-08-08 09:21:51 PM  
"He was also a graffiti artist, vandal known as "Reefa," who sprayed colorful splashes of paint on the city's abandoned buildings"

FTFTFA. You do not have the right to treat private property as your personal canvas, no matter how good others might think you are.

"He was on the ground and the cops were making jokes," said 19-year-old Thiago Souza.

I doubt very much that at this point they knew he was dying. For all we know, they may have been trying to catch this guy for some time and were justifiably happy to have finally caught him.

I don't think anyone should die for an act of vandalism, but I really don't think the cops were trying to kill him. Unfortunately, the dangers of Tasers are greatly downplayed by their makers and the authorities who deploy them. That being said, the cops on the beat are not doctors, if Tasers are presented to them as low-risk devices there is a good chance that they will use them.  I have a-fib, a Taser shot would probably kill me, but I don't expect a cop to know this so I intend to never provoke one into Tasering me.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/08/07/3548779/graffiti-artist-dies-af t er-tasering.html#storylink=cpy
 
2013-08-08 09:22:19 PM  
"Non-Lethal" as used in a description of a weapon means it is designed to stop a person rather than kill. They can still kill if used in an unorthodox way, overused, if the target has a medical condition that doesn't react well , or just plain bad luck.
 
2013-08-08 09:24:51 PM  
Read more here:  http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/08/07/3548779/graffiti-artist-dies-aft er-tasering.html#storylink=cpy"

I don't know how this line crept in there. Please disregard it. There is really no reason to link to the TFA.
 
2013-08-08 09:24:56 PM  

Mambo Bananapatch: Taser doesn't fark around when it comes to suggestions that their device is anything but harmless. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is drawing up a suit against subby and Drew as we speak.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2103450-taser-legal-team-takes-a-t ou gh-line-that-stuns-lawyers-and-ko-s-lawsuits/


That would make all of us the most likely "jury of his peers", right?
 
2013-08-08 09:24:57 PM  

dr_blasto: They're referred to as "less lethal" not "non-lethal" just like clubs, beanbag shot and rubber bullets.


I prefer "survivable" as a term.
 
2013-08-08 09:25:05 PM  

Kiwimann: Yeah, read the article.  Very sorry he died, but he was committing vandalism and resisting arrest.

That's not to say that he in any way deserved to die, but you can draw a line of causality from the choices he made to the end that he met.   If he hadn't been vandalizing private property, he would be alive today.  If he hadn't tried to run away from the police who caught him vandalizing private property, he would also be alive today.

Bad choices can occasionally produce bad outcomes.


You are a goddamned moron.
 
2013-08-08 09:26:20 PM  

rev. dave: Cops use Tasers as punishment.  They are not used just to subdue unruly people, they are used to make you pay for inconveniencing them.


Well, as Chris Rock says, "If the police have to come and get you, they're bringing an ass kicking with them."

/don't tag and don't run from the cops and maybe you won't get tazed
 
2013-08-08 09:29:49 PM  

Prometheus_Unbound: Mambo Bananapatch: Taser doesn't fark around when it comes to suggestions that their device is anything but harmless. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is drawing up a suit against subby and Drew as we speak.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2103450-taser-legal-team-takes-a-t ou gh-line-that-stuns-lawyers-and-ko-s-lawsuits/

WTF?!?
It has even filed a lawsuit demanding an Ohio coroner change her conclusion that a Taser was a contributing factor in the deaths of two men.

Is it even possible that a coroner can be ordered to change their report?


IANAL, but I'd be surprised if it isn't possible to force the coroner's office to spend so much time and money in court that she says the hell with it and changes the report.
 
2013-08-08 09:30:09 PM  
He was also a graffiti artist, known as "Reefa," who sprayed colorful splashes of paint on the city's abandoned buildings while playing cat-and-mouse with cops

i.imgur.com
/and I don't even like cops
 
2013-08-08 09:33:41 PM  
I was a lawn artist in high school. My RWD pickup truck a tool of my craft.
 
2013-08-08 09:34:14 PM  

shaddix: Kiwimann: Yeah, read the article.  Very sorry he died, but he was committing vandalism and resisting arrest.

That's not to say that he in any way deserved to die, but you can draw a line of causality from the choices he made to the end that he met.   If he hadn't been vandalizing private property, he would be alive today.  If he hadn't tried to run away from the police who caught him vandalizing private property, he would also be alive today.

Bad choices can occasionally produce bad outcomes.

You are a goddamned moron.


Care to elaborate? Or are you just mouthing off?
 
2013-08-08 09:34:29 PM  
Cops should use paint ball guns instead of phasers.
 
2013-08-08 09:40:06 PM  
Meh, running from the cops, either via vehicle or on foot, never has a gentle ending.

/kid was probably not used to such intense running
//possible undiagnosed arrhythmia
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-08 09:42:41 PM  
ElLoco:

You are a goddamned moron.

Care to elaborate? Or are you just mouthing off?


You are supposed to hate cops and love criminals because cops.

It's the Fark way.
 
2013-08-08 09:44:33 PM  

shaddix: Kiwimann: Yeah, read the article.  Very sorry he died, but he was committing vandalism and resisting arrest.

That's not to say that he in any way deserved to die, but you can draw a line of causality from the choices he made to the end that he met.   If he hadn't been vandalizing private property, he would be alive today.  If he hadn't tried to run away from the police who caught him vandalizing private property, he would also be alive today.

Bad choices can occasionally produce bad outcomes.

You are a goddamned moron.


No, no he's right.  When, in the line of duty, a police officer uses less-lethal force to "subdue" a person expressing himself on a wall (which human beings have been doing since we had walls. In fact, it's odd that we insist on perfectly clean walls in this society.) and he/she accidentally murders the youth then the officer should loose his/her badge and face other consequences. Bad choices = bad outcomes amiright?

/Wait this is America, I forgot 3 week vacation for the officer, job. well. done.
 
2013-08-08 09:47:39 PM  
Maybe if we stop referring to vandals as "artists".
 
2013-08-08 09:48:23 PM  

Mambo Bananapatch: Prometheus_Unbound: Mambo Bananapatch: Taser doesn't fark around when it comes to suggestions that their device is anything but harmless. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is drawing up a suit against subby and Drew as we speak.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2103450-taser-legal-team-takes-a-t ou gh-line-that-stuns-lawyers-and-ko-s-lawsuits/

WTF?!?
It has even filed a lawsuit demanding an Ohio coroner change her conclusion that a Taser was a contributing factor in the deaths of two men.

Is it even possible that a coroner can be ordered to change their report?

IANAL, but I'd be surprised if it isn't possible to force the coroner's office to spend so much time and money in court that she says the hell with it and changes the report.


That should be impossible if obvious malfeasance cannot be shown.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-08 09:49:25 PM  
Zombie Butler:

No, no he's right.  When, in the line of duty, a police officer uses less-lethal force to "subdue" a person expressing himself on a wall (which human beings have been doing since we had walls. In fact, it's odd that we insist on perfectly clean walls in this society.) and he/she accidentally murders the youth then the officer should loose his/her badge and face other consequences. Bad choices = bad outcomes amiright?

See what I mean?  A piece of shiat criminal has a heart attack and it's "murder".
 
2013-08-08 09:51:59 PM  

Zombie Butler:  When, in the line of duty, a police officer uses less-lethal force to "subdue" a person expressing himself on a wall (which human beings have been doing since we had walls.


He was subdued for fleeing arrest.
 
2013-08-08 09:52:27 PM  
I hate the punk died but if he wasn't being a punk he may not be dead. Defacing someone's property don't make you an artist, it makes you a punk.
 
2013-08-08 09:53:14 PM  

MFAWG: dr_blasto: They're referred to as "less lethal" not "non-lethal" just like clubs, beanbag shot and rubber bullets.

I've been assured in the Zimmerman threads that clubs, or flashlights that are marketed as clubs, are completely harmless.

So there's that.


I was also told on fark that both claw hammers (in a case where cops shot someone charging them with a hammer) and baseball bats (apparently worthless unless you can do a windup swing) should hardly be called weapons.

I'll wait for more info to surface on this one. Iirc it is always folks who would be unlikely to survive a physical encounter in the first place who die after being tased.
 
2013-08-08 09:53:47 PM  
You know, i would have felt some sympathy had I not read that he was involved in Graffiti. I have assholes graffiti my walls all the time and though obviously i don't believe capital punishment is the solution i certainly don't care of they get killed in the process if there was no intention to kill them.

Having said that, i disagree with state thugs carrying tasers. Horrible devices.
 
2013-08-08 09:55:11 PM  

vpb: Zombie Butler:

No, no he's right.  When, in the line of duty, a police officer uses less-lethal force to "subdue" a person expressing himself on a wall (which human beings have been doing since we had walls. In fact, it's odd that we insist on perfectly clean walls in this society.) and he/she accidentally murders the youth then the officer should loose his/her badge and face other consequences. Bad choices = bad outcomes amiright?

See what I mean?  A piece of shiat criminal has a heart attack and it's "murder".


"A piece of shiat criminal"?  While what he was doing was illegal, it was also mostly harmless.  Save the hyperbole.
 
2013-08-08 09:55:28 PM  

vpb: Zombie Butler:

No, no he's right.  When, in the line of duty, a police officer uses less-lethal force to "subdue" a person expressing himself on a wall (which human beings have been doing since we had walls. In fact, it's odd that we insist on perfectly clean walls in this society.) and he/she accidentally murders the youth then the officer should loose his/her badge and face other consequences. Bad choices = bad outcomes amiright?

See what I mean?  A piece of shiat criminal has a heart attack and it's "murder".


mur·der  (mûrn.
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
 
2013-08-08 09:55:37 PM  

shaddix: Kiwimann: Yeah, read the article.  Very sorry he died, but he was committing vandalism and resisting arrest.

That's not to say that he in any way deserved to die, but you can draw a line of causality from the choices he made to the end that he met.   If he hadn't been vandalizing private property, he would be alive today.  If he hadn't tried to run away from the police who caught him vandalizing private property, he would also be alive today.

Bad choices can occasionally produce bad outcomes.

You are a goddamned moron.


Nope he's pretty much right. Stupidity is it's own reward.
 
2013-08-08 09:57:51 PM  

Kiwimann: Zombie Butler:  When, in the line of duty, a police officer uses less-lethal force to "subdue" a person expressing himself on a wall (which human beings have been doing since we had walls.

He was subdued killed for fleeing arrest.




FIFM
 
2013-08-08 09:58:22 PM  

berylman: Tranquilizer darts and blowguns need to make a comeback. Can't be any worse.


Inaccurate doses of tranquilizer dart in lieu of tasers would thousands of times the taser-related death numbers. I hope you realize this and I just missed the joke.
 
2013-08-08 10:02:15 PM  
Tasers were never intended (except possibly by Taser, Inc.) to be "non-lethal". They've always properly been called less-than-lethal or other-than-lethal.

They were also never intended (except ditto) to be used as handy methods of enforcing compliance. They were originally meant to be used--as the "less-lethal" tag might imply--as an alternative to firing a gun. In other words, the Taser was meant to replace a bullet, so that the bad guy could be taken down and might not die in a situation where lethal force was the only other possible alternative. But clearly killing the suspect was still POSSIBLE when using a Taser, so it was not meant to be used except when the only other option was DEFINITELY killing the suspect.

Then it started being used instead of the PR-24, because it was perceived--by police and the public--as being less brutal, mostly because it didn't leave any visible marks; that was post-70's demonstrations, when the public was tired of seeing kids beaten into bloody pulp by blue-clad minions of Mayor Daly. Then along came the Taser, which SEEMED to offer a method of subduing noncompliant suspects without having to physically beat them, disregarding the fact that 50,000 volts of electricity was NEVER MEANT to be used that way.

Tasers were handed to cops basically as an alternative to batons and guns; lost in the translation was the idea that they shouldn't be using ANY of them unless they really really needed to. I know as well as anyone that it can be very difficult to restrain a stubborn, drunk or psycho suspect; that said, most of your suspects are not so drunk or resistant that merely going hands-on will not produce the desired result. But the public perception is that bruises = POLICE BRUTALITY while (so far) Tasers = no marks = not brutality. That's slowly changing, I hope.

It would be nice if all cops had the time and patience to politely talk even the most psycho drugged out killer into the back of a police car without ever having to touch him--that will never happen of course. In a more realistic vein, it would be better if a) Tasers were removed from all cops unless or until b) they can receive the correct training for when and how to use them: To wit, they're lethal weapons to be used only when a bullet would be used. And c) use of a Taser should be treated as use of a firearm for administrative purposes and any cop who uses one should be subject to the same post-incident investigations. And the public needs training too, that Tasers are not "non-lethal." Even if that means taking on Taser, Inc.
 
2013-08-08 10:02:26 PM  

shaddix: Kiwimann: Yeah, read the article.  Very sorry he died, but he was committing vandalism and resisting arrest.

That's not to say that he in any way deserved to die, but you can draw a line of causality from the choices he made to the end that he met.   If he hadn't been vandalizing private property, he would be alive today.  If he hadn't tried to run away from the police who caught him vandalizing private property, he would also be alive today.

Bad choices can occasionally produce bad outcomes.

You are a goddamned moron.


He may be, but he is also right.
 
2013-08-08 10:08:07 PM  

Jument: Personally I think cops are generally good, but I think there is a lack of accountability and a failure to punish those who abuse the public trust.


THIS!

THIS is true in all parts of the public and a lot of the private sector.
Bankers laundering drug money? TOO BIG to jail!
congressmen trading on inside information? PROFIT!
cities settle out of court for cop abuse of power? WIN!!

/sigh
 
2013-08-08 10:12:31 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Tasers were never intended (except possibly by Taser, Inc.) to be "non-lethal". They've always properly been called less-than-lethal or other-than-lethal.

They were also never intended (except ditto) to be used as handy methods of enforcing compliance. They were originally meant to be used--as the "less-lethal" tag might imply--as an alternative to firing a gun. In other words, the Taser was meant to replace a bullet, so that the bad guy could be taken down and might not die in a situation where lethal force was the only other possible alternative. But clearly killing the suspect was still POSSIBLE when using a Taser, so it was not meant to be used except when the only other option was DEFINITELY killing the suspect.

Then it started being used instead of the PR-24, because it was perceived--by police and the public--as being less brutal, mostly because it didn't leave any visible marks; that was post-70's demonstrations, when the public was tired of seeing kids beaten into bloody pulp by blue-clad minions of Mayor Daly. Then along came the Taser, which SEEMED to offer a method of subduing noncompliant suspects without having to physically beat them, disregarding the fact that 50,000 volts of electricity was NEVER MEANT to be used that way.

Tasers were handed to cops basically as an alternative to batons and guns; lost in the translation was the idea that they shouldn't be using ANY of them unless they really really needed to. I know as well as anyone that it can be very difficult to restrain a stubborn, drunk or psycho suspect; that said, most of your suspects are not so drunk or resistant that merely going hands-on will not produce the desired result. But the public perception is that bruises = POLICE BRUTALITY while (so far) Tasers = no marks = not brutality. That's slowly changing, I hope.

It would be nice if all cops had the time and patience to politely talk even the most psycho drugged out killer into the back of a police car without ever having to touch him--that will never happen of course. In a more realistic vein, it would be better if a) Tasers were removed from all cops unless or until b) they can receive the correct training for when and how to use them: To wit, they're lethal weapons to be used only when a bullet would be used. And c) use of a Taser should be treated as use of a firearm for administrative purposes and any cop who uses one should be subject to the same post-incident investigations. And the public needs training too, that Tasers are not "non-lethal." Even if that means taking on Taser, Inc.


Tasers are a worthless alternative to a gun. I would never trust them in a case where I was facing death or serious bodily harm, and I won't ask the people society pays to enforce laws to do so.

You are dead on wrt to perception though. Look at the swap from a tonfa-style club with actual control and defensive/reactive fighting value to the csb, good for nothing but first strike smashing. Guess which of the two the ignorant masses think is a less aggressicve weapon for cops?

I think cops overuse tasers, but limiting them to situations that a baton is justifies makes more sense to me than pretending it is a viable alternative to a gun. While there are taser related deaths, they aren't the extreme deadly weapon farkers (I will remind you it is the same farkers who think cops should be kung fu masters and recomend brilliant things like shooting people in the leg to disable them) make them out to be.

Afaik the majority of cops who carry one are tased themselves in the training. That is how it is by me anyways. Your locality may vary.
 
2013-08-08 10:14:15 PM  

capt.hollister: Read more here:  http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/08/07/3548779/graffiti-artist-dies-aft er-tasering.html#storylink=cpy"

I don't know how this line crept in there. Please disregard it. There is really no reason to link to the TFA.


The site voluntarily infected itself with malware called "Tynt" that does this.

Fark links to such sites even after being notified of the malware.

Luckily, it can be blocked by NoScript and other solutions.
 
2013-08-08 10:16:12 PM  
media.miamiherald.com


This picture screams, "I'm an artsy fartsy little high school biatch who's just found meth or as my friends call it tina and between committing acts of misdemeanor vandalism and acts of sodomy I don't make the best decisions in the world like running at groups of heavily armed cops while high and being placed under arrest."  Of course having a toxicology profile like Jim Morrison's won't deter any libertards from declaring the Taser killed him.
 
2013-08-08 10:18:26 PM  

OscarTamerz: [media.miamiherald.com image 480x640]


This picture screams, "I'm an artsy fartsy little high school biatch who's just found meth or as my friends call it tina and between committing acts of misdemeanor vandalism and acts of sodomy I don't make the best decisions in the world like running at groups of heavily armed cops while high and being placed under arrest."  Of course having a toxicology profile like Jim Morrison's won't deter any libertards from declaring the Taser killed him.


We can all tell what your impromptu caption screams.
 
2013-08-08 10:24:03 PM  

vpb: Zombie Butler:

No, no he's right.  When, in the line of duty, a police officer uses less-lethal force to "subdue" a person expressing himself on a wall (which human beings have been doing since we had walls. In fact, it's odd that we insist on perfectly clean walls in this society.) and he/she accidentally murders the youth then the officer should loose his/her badge and face other consequences. Bad choices = bad outcomes amiright?

See what I mean?  A piece of shiat criminal has a heart attack and it's "murder".


There's also the minor detail of the 50,000 volts that triggered his "heart attack."
That wasn't caused by cheeseburgers, in case you were curious.
 
2013-08-08 10:28:59 PM  
MooseUpNorth: I prefer "survivable" as a term.

I prefer ... damage tables, suitable for use in a RPG of your choosing.

// would tasers get a damage bonus if the target is standing in water?

// can you poison the probes of a taser?

// what constitutes non lethal / survivable / less than lethal ... when dealing with demi-humans? Do Drow hate pepperspray? Are smelly Orcs immune to teargas? Can you hit a dragon with a beam from a dazzler and make it fall out of the sky?
 
2013-08-08 10:29:54 PM  

Smackledorfer: MFAWG: dr_blasto: They're referred to as "less lethal" not "non-lethal" just like clubs, beanbag shot and rubber bullets.

I've been assured in the Zimmerman threads that clubs, or flashlights that are marketed as clubs, are completely harmless.

So there's that.

I was also told on fark that both claw hammers (in a case where cops shot someone charging them with a hammer) and baseball bats (apparently worthless unless you can do a windup swing) should hardly be called weapons.

I'll wait for more info to surface on this one. Iirc it is always folks who would be unlikely to survive a physical encounter in the first place who die after being tased.


Glad we can agree that a club is a dangerous weapon, and if someone follows me into an alley carrying one after 'legally following' me, I should prepare to stand my ground.

See how that works?
 
2013-08-08 10:34:17 PM  

MFAWG: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: dr_blasto: They're referred to as "less lethal" not "non-lethal" just like clubs, beanbag shot and rubber bullets.

I've been assured in the Zimmerman threads that clubs, or flashlights that are marketed as clubs, are completely harmless.

So there's that.

I was also told on fark that both claw hammers (in a case where cops shot someone charging them with a hammer) and baseball bats (apparently worthless unless you can do a windup swing) should hardly be called weapons.

I'll wait for more info to surface on this one. Iirc it is always folks who would be unlikely to survive a physical encounter in the first place who die after being tased.

Glad we can agree that a club is a dangerous weapon, and if someone follows me into an alley carrying one after 'legally following' me, I should prepare to stand my ground.

See how that works?


Still really stuck on zimmerman eh?
 
2013-08-08 10:45:02 PM  

Smackledorfer: MFAWG: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: dr_blasto: They're referred to as "less lethal" not "non-lethal" just like clubs, beanbag shot and rubber bullets.

I've been assured in the Zimmerman threads that clubs, or flashlights that are marketed as clubs, are completely harmless.

So there's that.

I was also told on fark that both claw hammers (in a case where cops shot someone charging them with a hammer) and baseball bats (apparently worthless unless you can do a windup swing) should hardly be called weapons.

I'll wait for more info to surface on this one. Iirc it is always folks who would be unlikely to survive a physical encounter in the first place who die after being tased.

Glad we can agree that a club is a dangerous weapon, and if someone follows me into an alley carrying one after 'legally following' me, I should prepare to stand my ground.

See how that works?

Still really stuck on zimmerman eh?


I'm seeing the same pattern here: a supposed 'Thug' ends up dead for no real good reason, and a certain, predictable portion of the population think it's OK, and not just OK, but a good thing overall.
 
2013-08-08 10:47:28 PM  

MFAWG: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: dr_blasto: They're referred to as "less lethal" not "non-lethal" just like clubs, beanbag shot and rubber bullets.

I've been assured in the Zimmerman threads that clubs, or flashlights that are marketed as clubs, are completely harmless.

So there's that.

I was also told on fark that both claw hammers (in a case where cops shot someone charging them with a hammer) and baseball bats (apparently worthless unless you can do a windup swing) should hardly be called weapons.

I'll wait for more info to surface on this one. Iirc it is always folks who would be unlikely to survive a physical encounter in the first place who die after being tased.

Glad we can agree that a club is a dangerous weapon, and if someone follows me into an alley carrying one after 'legally following' me, I should prepare to stand my ground.

See how that works?

Still really stuck on zimmerman eh?

I'm seeing the same pattern here: a supposed 'Thug' ends up dead for no real good reason, and a certain, predictable portion of the population think it's OK, and not just OK, but a good thing overall.


Completely different situation here, imo.
 
2013-08-08 10:51:13 PM  

Smackledorfer: MFAWG: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: dr_blasto: They're referred to as "less lethal" not "non-lethal" just like clubs, beanbag shot and rubber bullets.

I've been assured in the Zimmerman threads that clubs, or flashlights that are marketed as clubs, are completely harmless.

So there's that.

I was also told on fark that both claw hammers (in a case where cops shot someone charging them with a hammer) and baseball bats (apparently worthless unless you can do a windup swing) should hardly be called weapons.

I'll wait for more info to surface on this one. Iirc it is always folks who would be unlikely to survive a physical encounter in the first place who die after being tased.

Glad we can agree that a club is a dangerous weapon, and if someone follows me into an alley carrying one after 'legally following' me, I should prepare to stand my ground.

See how that works?

Still really stuck on zimmerman eh?

I'm seeing the same pattern here: a supposed 'Thug' ends up dead for no real good reason, and a certain, predictable portion of the population think it's OK, and not just OK, but a good thing overall.

Completely different situation here, imo.


True enough. It's an 'accident' that probably should have been avoided,
 
2013-08-08 10:52:41 PM  

OscarTamerz: [media.miamiherald.com image 480x640]


This picture screams, "I'm an artsy fartsy little high school biatch who's just found meth or as my friends call it tina and between committing acts of misdemeanor vandalism and acts of sodomy I don't make the best decisions in the world like running at groups of heavily armed cops while high and being placed under arrest."  Of course having a toxicology profile like Jim Morrison's won't deter any libertards from declaring the Taser killed him.


cf.chucklesnetwork.agj.co
 
2013-08-08 10:57:24 PM  

berylman: Tranquilizer darts and blowguns need to make a comeback. Can't be any worse.


I can see the PD shooting 80 darts, hitting everyone but the perp.
/weapons qualifications should be quarterly.
 
2013-08-08 11:04:20 PM  

Smackledorfer: Afaik the majority of cops who carry one are tased themselves in the training. That is how it is by me anyways. Your locality may vary.


In that case I vote for cops to carry chain saws.
 
2013-08-08 11:08:23 PM  

crab66: Less-than-lethal is the term I usually hear.


Pretty much nobody with any sense says that these weapons are non-lethal. Even smoke grenades and pepper spray can be lethal against someone with respiratory problems.


Taser markets and police policies all reference them as "less-lethal" as opposed to "less-than"
 
2013-08-08 11:12:25 PM  

Mambo Bananapatch: Taser doesn't fark around when it comes to suggestions that their device is anything but harmless. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is drawing up a suit against subby and Drew as we speak.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2103450-taser-legal-team-takes-a-t ou gh-line-that-stuns-lawyers-and-ko-s-lawsuits/


Don't potentially lethally electrical discharge device me bro!
 
2013-08-08 11:13:08 PM  

Smackledorfer: MFAWG: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: dr_blasto: They're referred to as "less lethal" not "non-lethal" just like clubs, beanbag shot and rubber bullets.

I've been assured in the Zimmerman threads that clubs, or flashlights that are marketed as clubs, are completely harmless.

So there's that.

I was also told on fark that both claw hammers (in a case where cops shot someone charging them with a hammer) and baseball bats (apparently worthless unless you can do a windup swing) should hardly be called weapons.

I'll wait for more info to surface on this one. Iirc it is always folks who would be unlikely to survive a physical encounter in the first place who die after being tased.

Glad we can agree that a club is a dangerous weapon, and if someone follows me into an alley carrying one after 'legally following' me, I should prepare to stand my ground.

See how that works?

Still really stuck on zimmerman eh?

I'm seeing the same pattern here: a supposed 'Thug' ends up dead for no real good reason, and a certain, predictable portion of the population think it's OK, and not just OK, but a good thing overall.

Completely different situation here, imo.


Same response from the hoipolloi, though. Different segment of them, perhaps, but "Oh, he was breaking the law, he should have been doing something else and he wouldn't be dead, it's too bad he died, but still...."
 
gja
2013-08-08 11:18:06 PM  
And the taxes in Miami will go up to cover the cost of yet another wrongful death suit.

Awesome work, ignorant cops.
 
2013-08-08 11:19:25 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: dr_blasto: They're referred to as "less lethal" not "non-lethal" just like clubs, beanbag shot and rubber bullets.

I've been assured in the Zimmerman threads that clubs, or flashlights that are marketed as clubs, are completely harmless.

So there's that.

I was also told on fark that both claw hammers (in a case where cops shot someone charging them with a hammer) and baseball bats (apparently worthless unless you can do a windup swing) should hardly be called weapons.

I'll wait for more info to surface on this one. Iirc it is always folks who would be unlikely to survive a physical encounter in the first place who die after being tased.

Glad we can agree that a club is a dangerous weapon, and if someone follows me into an alley carrying one after 'legally following' me, I should prepare to stand my ground.

See how that works?

Still really stuck on zimmerman eh?

I'm seeing the same pattern here: a supposed 'Thug' ends up dead for no real good reason, and a certain, predictable portion of the population think it's OK, and not just OK, but a good thing overall.

Completely different situation here, imo.

Same response from the hoipolloi, though. Different segment of them, perhaps, but "Oh, he was breaking the law, he should have been doing something else and he wouldn't be dead, it's too bad he died, but still...."


Wait until they find out he was a hopeless drug addict who probably smoked marijuana in the days before his death. Then it will become a public service these brave men did.
 
2013-08-08 11:21:44 PM  

AndreMA: capt.hollister: Read more here:  http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/08/07/3548779/graffiti-artist-dies-aft er-tasering.html#storylink=cpy"

I don't know how this line crept in there. Please disregard it. There is really no reason to link to the TFA.

The site voluntarily infected itself with malware called "Tynt" that does this.

Fark links to such sites even after being notified of the malware.

Luckily, it can be blocked by NoScript and other solutions.


Thanks for the useful info.
 
2013-08-08 11:27:40 PM  

gja: And the taxes in Miami will go up to cover the cost of yet another wrongful death suit.

Awesome work, ignorant cops. crazy vandal charging directly at police who are telling him to stand still.



It's the kid's fault 99%. If you really are an artist, act like one. Own the work. It's only a misdemeanor.
 
2013-08-08 11:28:39 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: Smackledorfer: MFAWG: dr_blasto: They're referred to as "less lethal" not "non-lethal" just like clubs, beanbag shot and rubber bullets.

I've been assured in the Zimmerman threads that clubs, or flashlights that are marketed as clubs, are completely harmless.

So there's that.

I was also told on fark that both claw hammers (in a case where cops shot someone charging them with a hammer) and baseball bats (apparently worthless unless you can do a windup swing) should hardly be called weapons.

I'll wait for more info to surface on this one. Iirc it is always folks who would be unlikely to survive a physical encounter in the first place who die after being tased.

Glad we can agree that a club is a dangerous weapon, and if someone follows me into an alley carrying one after 'legally following' me, I should prepare to stand my ground.

See how that works?

Still really stuck on zimmerman eh?

I'm seeing the same pattern here: a supposed 'Thug' ends up dead for no real good reason, and a certain, predictable portion of the population think it's OK, and not just OK, but a good thing overall.

Completely different situation here, imo.

Same response from the hoipolloi, though. Different segment of them, perhaps, but "Oh, he was breaking the law, he should have been doing something else and he wouldn't be dead, it's too bad he died, but still...."


I'm not sure I'd agree that aggressive and violent force is the appropriate response to an asshole tagger. Even less-lethal is potentially lethal and I don't agree that the public's interest in arresting the dude is high enough to warrant tasing. They should have chased him off if he ran.
 
2013-08-08 11:32:54 PM  
I would be outraged if he was innocent.

1. He was vandalizing private property.
2. He resisted arrest.

No need to read further. Outcome was harsh, but avoidable by not being a punk. No loss to society IMO.
 
2013-08-08 11:47:39 PM  
I hope criminals start using tasers as defence against cops. That would really stir up the pot. If the cop lives, then great - it's a nonlethal weapon. If he dies, that's great too -- because current legal precedent says you didn't murder the guy. The tables aren't so pretty when they're turned, are they?

The whole idea of electrocuting somebody as a humane and safe way to disable someone is bogus. Executing someone via electric chair is cruel and unusual, but tasing someone is A-OK? The chance of death by electric chair isn't 100% either.
 
2013-08-08 11:50:34 PM  

BummerDuck: I would be outraged if he was innocent.

1. He was vandalizing private property.
2. He resisted arrest.

No need to read further. Outcome was harsh, but avoidable by not being a punk. No loss to society IMO.


I disagree. Every time the cops use violence society loses. Every time someone dies from cop violence, society loses even more. They should have let the punk go.
 
2013-08-08 11:56:19 PM  

tortilla burger: I hope criminals start using tasers as defence against cops. That would really stir up the pot. If the cop lives, then great - it's a nonlethal weapon. If he dies, that's great too -- because current legal precedent says you didn't murder the guy. The tables aren't so pretty when they're turned, are they?


They certainly could charge someone with assault, but it would be really interesting if they tried for attempted murder or murder.  I don't see how they could do it without setting precedent that would forever be used against them.
 
2013-08-09 12:03:53 AM  

tortilla burger: I hope criminals start using tasers as defence against cops. That would really stir up the pot. If the cop lives, then great - it's a nonlethal weapon. If he dies, that's great too -- because current legal precedent says you didn't murder the guy. The tables aren't so pretty when they're turned, are they?

The whole idea of electrocuting somebody as a humane and safe way to disable someone is bogus. Executing someone via electric chair is cruel and unusual, but tasing someone is A-OK? The chance of death by electric chair isn't 100% either.


Nice thought EXCEPT cops generally escalate above the level of the suspect to achieve compliance:
passively resist and they can go hands on
Actively resist and they can strike pressure points or perform take down
Get assaultive with your fists and they can swing a club at you.
Swing a club at them and they can shoot you.

So when you tase them with a potential followup of more damage while they are incapacitated, it will be pretty easy to justify a reaction you won't like. But good luck trying I guess?
 
gja
2013-08-09 12:04:58 AM  

doglover: gja: And the taxes in Miami will go up to cover the cost of yet another wrongful death suit.

Awesome work, ignorant cops. crazy vandal charging directly at police who are telling him to stand still.


It's the kid's fault 99%. If you really are an artist, act like one. Own the work. It's only a misdemeanor.


So......2 cops couldn't manage 1 little punk without resorting to a taser?

Pussies. FTR, go DIS an image of him. He's so skinny I could throw him like a javelin, and I'm not all that big.
 
2013-08-09 12:06:52 AM  

BummerDuck: I would be outraged if he was innocent.

1. He was vandalizing private property.
2. He resisted arrest.

No need to read further. Outcome was harsh, but avoidable by not being a punk. No loss to society IMO.


9/10. Concise, infuriatingly smug, highly inflammatory troll. Will get bites.

/would award a 10 but I never give 10s on the theory that there can always be a better troll
 
2013-08-09 12:07:03 AM  
didnt need to read the fa

for those posters who've opined about tagging - yes, he was

may I suggest you google "wynwood" - about 10 minutes from south beach that celebrates
just this sort of art - featured in movies and videos all over the world.

if this young man deserved to be tasered for this crime, in this area, then I guess everyone who may have ever jacklighted a deer aught to be hung. that is a crime, too.

did the cops set out to kill this person? no
was the use of a taser needed? no
did the community lose a creative, well-liked young person? yes

apparently ALL young men under the age of 25 are "punks" - unless they are on fark
 
2013-08-09 12:08:42 AM  

Kiwimann: Yeah, read the article.  Very sorry he died, but he was committing vandalism and resisting arrest.

That's not to say that he in any way deserved to die, but you can draw a line of causality from the choices he made to the end that he met.   If he hadn't been vandalizing private property, he would be alive today.  If he hadn't tried to run away from the police who caught him vandalizing private property, he would also be alive today.

Bad choices can occasionally produce bad outcomes.


THAT.

FTA: The chief said Hernández-Llach was confronted by officers about 5 a.m. as he was vandalizing private property, and he fled, leading officers on a foot chase. It ended at 71st and Harding when he was cornered by police and ran toward the officers, ignoring commands to stop, Martinez said.

I'd seen another article without that tidbit, and if he's running at the officers, who knows if he was going to whip out a weapon? HDI for being a stupid vandalizing POS.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/08/07/3548779/graffiti-artist-dies-af t er-tasering.html#storylink=cpy
 
2013-08-09 12:09:22 AM  
...I didn't put in the last link. O_o
 
2013-08-09 12:14:17 AM  
As a shop owner I have one comment for a vandal dying by misadventure while committing a crime:

Good
 
2013-08-09 12:16:45 AM  
i really encourage farkers who think this was some aimless person to google

"wynwood miami images"

and extrapolate a bit given age, interest and area of the deceased

tagging is not a capital offense, even at its worst
 
2013-08-09 12:20:34 AM  

Greywar: As a shop owner I have one comment for a vandal dying by misadventure while committing a crime:

Good


Nice!  Death sentence for tagging.  You are obviously the better person.
 
2013-08-09 12:21:15 AM  
greywar:
As a shop owner I have one comment for a vandal dying by misadventure while committing a crime:
Good



As a taxpayer I have one comment for an another actionable death at the hands of the MBPD - "sh*t - how much will this cost me now?"

The business in question was a vacant franchise.....
 
2013-08-09 12:29:14 AM  
dr_blasto They should have let the punk go.They didn't have that choice. He was running at them and was in the 15 foot range of the Taser wrhen he was shot in the chest. Did you want them to wait until he started scratching their eyes out before they responded to the threat. In the good old days that sort of behavior would have been the occasion for a billy club shampoo and testicle massage and that is what the cops will revert to if the Tasers are taken away. There are fewer problems with Tasers than either batons or capsaicin sprays and that's why they're so widely used.
 
2013-08-09 12:38:18 AM  
Oscar Tamerz -

  I am the last person who wants cops to wait until its too late to respond to a lethal threat - and about the first one to understand they don't always know if a threat is lethal or not.

  However? The Miami Beach PD has a history of over-reacting. A smallish young person who was obviously tagging (as opposed to say, standing with a weapon and a hostage and screaming threats) would have been better off with a smack down - I'd guess his folks would appreciate the difference between "injured while arrested" and "dead"
 
2013-08-09 12:54:25 AM  
Why don't they just use a whip instead of a taser?
 
2013-08-09 01:03:05 AM  

Greywar: As a shop owner I have one comment for a vandal dying by misadventure while committing a crime:

Good


You sure are annoying for somebody who thinks it's good that annoying people are put to death.
 
2013-08-09 01:10:26 AM  
Most police departments allow the use of an ECD (Taser) at the level of active physical resistance. Active physical resistance includes evasive movements to defeat an officer's attempt at control; this include bracing, tensing, pushing, pulling and running or trying to keep the officer from getting close enough to affect an arrest. If you run, a taser will put a quick stop to the chase vs. tackling an offender and then having to wrestle them until you can handcuff them.

I've personally tased two men. The first was running and when we caught up to him he was fighting to get away. He was tased as he charged me after pulling away from my partner. He was 6'2, 250lbs and drunk.  The second was a burglar who I chased for about 50 feet before I put an end to the chase. He was like 5'8, 220lbs. It was safer to end the chase with a taser than get into a fight. Both times the taser did its job and was used within the use of force guidelines of my department.

The taser is not an alternative to a gun or for use against a subject armed with a gun. Taser loses to gun because the person with the gun can kill you. Also, if you tase someone with a gun, they might spasm their hand closed and fire off some rounds. Deadly force is met with deadly force. A gun, knife, bat, machete, crowbar, pipe or potentially deadly weapon pointed at an officer will get you a gun pointed at your face or several bits of lead in your center mass.

The tasing was justified to end the foot chase, the outcome was the offender's fault. Police respond to your actions. Those officers didn't make that young man run, he chose to run and the officers acted accordingly to out an end to the resistance. It's a shame he died, but his actions dictated what occurred.
 
2013-08-09 01:28:04 AM  

Dog Man: The tasing was justified to end the foot chase, the outcome was the offender's fault. Police respond to your actions. Those officers didn't make that young man run, he chose to run and the officers acted accordingly to out an end to the resistance. It's a shame he died, but his actions dictated what occurred.


Hey if he was being chased by zimmerman, he would have been just as dead.
The question is NOT did the police follow proceedures, blah blah blah.
The question is How long will we allow this to continue?
Why are police allowed to kill someone like this?
What would the effect been of letting the "bad" guy get away?

The property damage was already done. The cost of clean up was already incurred.
Why was their a rush to apprehend?
Why do the police come in shooting, rather than call a negotiator and wait out a bad guy?
Why did Waco happen, rather than starve them out?
etc etc etc

bah
 
2013-08-09 01:31:18 AM  

Gyrfalcon: They were also never intended (except ditto) to be used as handy methods of enforcing compliance. They were originally meant to be used--as the "less-lethal" tag might imply--as an alternative to firing a gun.


I disagree.

That how y'all sold them to the public, but they were always intended as a means of non-judicial punishment for contempt of cop and similar offenses.
 
2013-08-09 01:31:35 AM  

Vector R: I'd seen another article without that tidbit


Probably because no one believes "he's coming right at us!" when the guy is half the size of just one of the people involved.
 
2013-08-09 01:34:11 AM  

snuff3r: You know, i would have felt some sympathy had I not read that he was involved in Graffiti. I have assholes graffiti my walls all the time and though obviously i don't believe capital punishment is the solution i certainly don't care of they get killed in the process if there was no intention to kill them.

Having said that, i disagree with state thugs carrying tasers. Horrible devices.


Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.
 
2013-08-09 01:37:34 AM  

vrax: tortilla burger: I hope criminals start using tasers as defence against cops. That would really stir up the pot. If the cop lives, then great - it's a nonlethal weapon. If he dies, that's great too -- because current legal precedent says you didn't murder the guy. The tables aren't so pretty when they're turned, are they?

They certainly could charge someone with assault, but it would be really interesting if they tried for attempted murder or murder.  I don't see how they could do it without setting precedent that would forever be used against them.


Felony murder rule, actually.  Assault on on Officer is a felony, so even an unintended death leads to Murder 1.

Assault by an Officer on a civilian isn't illegal, so it isn't comparable.
 
2013-08-09 01:39:24 AM  
Litterbox -

   I rarely guess out loud
   but? i'd guess not cocaine but perhaps heart/bp issues - knowing this PD? perhaps closed trauma
   we'll see
 
2013-08-09 01:47:45 AM  

Dl_white_power: berylman: Tranquilizer darts and blowguns need to make a comeback. Can't be any worse.

I can see the PD shooting 80 darts, hitting everyone but the perp.
/weapons qualifications should be quarterly.

Monthly

FTFY
 
2013-08-09 01:53:36 AM  

Litterbox: Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.


There are over two million people in Chicago, and CPD used their TASERS 836 times in 2011.

You apparently work in a city with 18,000 people where your Department Tases 2% of its population each year.

That's farked up.
 
2013-08-09 01:55:01 AM  

way south: Its called "less than lethal" for a reason, and often it isn't.
The cops lost their sense of perspective on this crime and the kid paid for it with his life.


Pretty damn much.

When I was bouncing, management was willing to throw in some cash for pepper spray and other toys, and the team turned them down. Weapons can be taken from you in a crowd and used against you, plus with sprays there is the chance of folks who have breathing issues, asthma, or allergies to go down, and go down hard. And not in a controlled fashion. The most we relied on were maglights and Sharpies, because without some training, they harder to lose, and if lost, a hand load like those can be dangerous, but less so than say a truncheon. At most the Maglights were to help come-alongs and simple joint applications, and even then, it was with care, because you don't want to snap fingers or accidentally hurt or kill someone with a blows to the head.

Most of the cops I've worked with were on the same page. Mind you, as security for a club, we had a responsibility to protect ALL our patrons, even the drunk or high ones. Police do get in much more dire situations, but tasering a tagger? Really? Property damage isn't on the same par with preventing assault or subduing someone who becoming violent. Tasering a tagger is rucking fecockulous. Yes, it would look bad if a kid outran you, but resorting to a weapon on someone armed with a spraypaint is more than damn silly.
 
2013-08-09 01:58:42 AM  

namatad: Dog Man: The tasing was justified to end the foot chase, the outcome was the offender's fault. Police respond to your actions. Those officers didn't make that young man run, he chose to run and the officers acted accordingly to out an end to the resistance. It's a shame he died, but his actions dictated what occurred.

Hey if he was being chased by zimmerman, he would have been just as dead.
The question is NOT did the police follow proceedures, blah blah blah.
The question is How long will we allow this to continue?
Why are police allowed to kill someone like this?
What would the effect been of letting the "bad" guy get away?

The property damage was already done. The cost of clean up was already incurred.
Why was their a rush to apprehend?
Why do the police come in shooting, rather than call a negotiator and wait out a bad guy?
Why did Waco happen, rather than starve them out?
etc etc etc

bah


It will be a long while before you convince society to tell cops not to chase fleeing suspects.

I am not altogether against the idea, mind you, but it really is the opposite of what most want from police.

It sounds like you wouldn't want the police chasing and tackling someone in this situation either - especially if/when without catching the person they wouldn't have evidence to convict.

Any chasing could easily result in physical harm that we would mostly agree outweighs a non-violemt crime like this (ie, zero physical harm is the appriate punishmemt).

How about speeding? If I steal a car but it hasn't been declared stolen, should I get a free drive-away to prevent my speeding infraction and subsequent chase from resulting in my death?
 
2013-08-09 02:01:20 AM  

fnordfocus: Litterbox: Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.

There are over two million people in Chicago, and CPD used their TASERS 836 times in 2011.

You apparently work in a city with 18,000 people where your Department Tases 2% of its population each year.

That's farked up.


In fairness, despite our turning down non-lethals, we all did undergo training with them, and that included getting shocked, getting pepper sprayed, and the like. And they all suck with varying degrees of sucktitude. The issue here isn't just how he was hit, or why, but how he was treated. You leave someone in a heap following a shock, that's not good. The cops may be saying that they tased him to avoid physical confrontation, but we are talking about a graffiti artist, not a college linebacker on a coke and redbull binge.
 
2013-08-09 02:07:05 AM  
hubiestubert: Really? Property damage isn't on the same par with preventing assault or subduing someone who becoming violent. Tasering a tagger is rucking fecockulous. Yes, it would look bad if a kid outran you, but resorting to a weapon on someone armed with a spraypaint is more than damn silly.


TY for this

I really cant stress enough how parts of this area - Miami Beach/Wynwood - are aligned with young people (16-20's) interested in food and art. Sometimes they play "fast and loose" with food trucks, pop-up restaurants, wall art...
The business in question was vacant and the cost would have been less than a wrongful death suit...
 
2013-08-09 02:07:24 AM  

OscarTamerz: [media.miamiherald.com image 480x640]


This picture screams, "I'm an artsy fartsy little high school biatch who's just found meth or as my friends call it tina and between committing acts of misdemeanor vandalism and acts of sodomy I don't make the best decisions in the world like running at groups of heavily armed cops while high and being placed under arrest."  Of course having a toxicology profile like Jim Morrison's won't deter any libertards from declaring the Taser killed him.


Why did he deserve to die more than you?
 
2013-08-09 02:12:05 AM  

The_Time_Master: OscarTamerz: [media.miamiherald.com image 480x640]


This picture screams, "I'm an artsy fartsy little high school biatch who's just found meth or as my friends call it tina and between committing acts of misdemeanor vandalism and acts of sodomy I don't make the best decisions in the world like running at groups of heavily armed cops while high and being placed under arrest."  Of course having a toxicology profile like Jim Morrison's won't deter any libertards from declaring the Taser killed him.

Why did he deserve to die more than you?


In certain, older versions of this culture, his is the sort of attitude that eventually has someone demand satisfaction on the field of honor...
 
2013-08-09 02:18:02 AM  
oscar: This picture screams, "I'm an artsy fartsy little high school biatch who's just found meth or as my friends call it tina and between committing acts of misdemeanor vandalism and acts of sodomy I don't make the best decisions in the world like running at groups of heavily armed cops while high and being placed under arrest."  Of course having a toxicology profile like Jim Morrison's won't deter any libertards from declaring the Taser killed him.


Let's hope, someday, should fate throw you an unexpected death and leave your story to reporters, that you aren't judged by strangers who live far from where you did and want to assume the worst - and share that assumption - with many more strangers. You should have some dignity.
Let's hope that your unexpected death isn't because you committed a misdemeanor
Lets hope you don't have an older sister who loved you and has access to the web, too
 
2013-08-09 02:19:18 AM  

Litterbox: snuff3r: You know, i would have felt some sympathy had I not read that he was involved in Graffiti. I have assholes graffiti my walls all the time and though obviously i don't believe capital punishment is the solution i certainly don't care of they get killed in the process if there was no intention to kill them.

Having said that, i disagree with state thugs carrying tasers. Horrible devices.

Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.


I'm all for LTL weaponry being issued to police, don't get me wrong. But any cop who gets in front of me and tells me that it's a tool that saves lives and then turns around to say that having a Taser pointed at them is justification to shoot somebody has just dropped completely off the list of people who I'd ever do a favor for. Ever. No statements, no questions answered, no aid rendered.

I've had my Edison cherry popped too, I know what it's like. And it's a serious weapon. I didn't carry one because it wouldn't do ME any good to use it if things went pear shaped, I don't have backup on the way or a dispatcher to send help. Police officers have Glock, Motorola, the Justice system and a whole brotherhood of people with the same to back them up. Pain compliance methods, hand to hand training, verbal judo, physical restraints, capsaicin, night sticks, nunchaku (in more and more PDs, yes), sap gloves, batons, you show me a picture of the contents of your average duty bag and I'll show you a picture of what would normally be considered ITG porn by the majority of folks looking at it if it were posted by non LEO people. Police officers have a metric assload of tools available to them to handle dangerous situations, and they're supposed to be the ones who gauge how dangerous a situation is.

The original justification for issuing Tasers (which stands for Thomas A Swift's Electric RIFLE, BTW) was to handle situations where somebody was a lethal threat but could be handled at range. Meth head with knife, roid rager with a bat, things like that. That was the original marketing scheme by Taser itself. "A second to last resort."

Man the fark up and treat it for what it is, a less than lethal GUN. Use your spray, jam your thumb behind his ear, and learn how to manhandle. I'm 5'10" and 180 lbs, just as trained if not moreso than you and I highly doubt I would have even needed help getting this twerp on the ground and in cuffs. You pussies need to start holding yourself accountable and realize that those duty issue Tasers are worn in very similar looking holsters as your duty pistol for a reason. Many PDs have UOF investigations every time a pistol leaves a holster, it should damn well be that way for Tasers too.
 
2013-08-09 02:27:11 AM  

fnordfocus: Litterbox: Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.

There are over two million people in Chicago, and CPD used their TASERS 836 times in 2011.

You apparently work in a city with 18,000 people where your Department Tases 2% of its population each year.

That's farked up.


I live in San Antonio.  Our city and surrounding county is close to 2 million.  My statement included our jail which is the 16th largest in the nation.  Inmates are Tased regularly.  I know this because I deal with it.  Regardless of the numbers, the point is that the chances of someone dying after being Tased is extremely low.  Matter of fact, I dont know of anyone who has actually died from being Tased.  When I took the Taser training, we were told that 1:100,000 *might* have a chance at having something go wrong medically.

Past all this, there is a huge misunderstanding where the Taser comes into play.  Use of Force is something that every police officer and correctional officer has to deal with.  Cops and correctional officers need these tools in their toolbags as intermediate weapons and something other than batons, ASP's and other items which can inflict permanent or deadly results.  There is a specific continuum on use of force, however, the force you use is not set in concrete and what you use to meet force is fluid and will change depending on circumstances and other variables.  As police officers, we are not expected to engage in prolonged combat with someone.  We are expected to resolve the situation as safely as possible for all parties.
 
2013-08-09 02:36:19 AM  

Litterbox: fnordfocus: Litterbox: Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.

There are over two million people in Chicago, and CPD used their TASERS 836 times in 2011.

You apparently work in a city with 18,000 people where your Department Tases 2% of its population each year.

That's farked up.

I live in San Antonio.  Our city and surrounding county is close to 2 million.  My statement included our jail which is the 16th largest in the nation.  Inmates are Tased regularly.  I know this because I deal with it.  Regardless of the numbers, the point is that the chances of someone dying after being Tased is extremely low.  Matter of fact, I dont know of anyone who has actually died from being Tased.  When I took the Taser training, we were told that 1:100,000 *might* have a chance at having something go wrong medically.

Past all this, there is a huge misunderstanding where the Taser comes into play.  Use of Force is something that every police officer and correctional officer has to deal with.  Cops and correctional officers need these tools in their toolbags as intermediate weapons and something other than batons, ASP's and other items which can inflict permanent or deadly results.  There is a specific continuum on use of force, however, the force you use is not set in concrete and what you use to meet force is fluid and will change depending on circumstances and other variables.  As police officers, we are not expected to engage in prolonged combat with someone.  We are expected to resolve the situation as safely as possible for all parties.


And you think that tasering a teenager who was spray painting as his big crime de jour, meets those requirements? Really?
 
2013-08-09 02:37:51 AM  
iq_in_binary:

I'm all for LTL weaponry being issued to police, don't get me wrong. But any cop who gets in front of me and tells me that it's a tool that saves lives and then turns around to say that having a Taser pointed at them is justification to shoot somebody has just dropped completely off the list of people who I'd ever do a favor for. Ever. No statements, no questions answered, no aid rendered.

I was trying to make a point about safety of the device.  With all the cops being Tased for the benefit of training, I don't believe there has ever been a fatality.  The "justification" comes when the person is not complying with you, is fighting you, is assaulting someone etc.  The Taser is very effective most of the time.


I've had my Edison cherry popped too, I know what it's like. And it's a serious weapon. I didn't carry one because it wouldn't do ME any good to use it if things went pear shaped, I don't have backup on the way or a dispatcher to send help. Police officers have Glock, Motorola, the Justice system and a whole brotherhood of people with the same to back them up. Pain compliance methods, hand to hand training, verbal judo, physical restraints, capsaicin, night sticks, nunchaku (in more and more PDs, yes), sap gloves, batons, you show me a picture of the contents of your average duty bag and I'll show you a picture of what would normally be considered ITG porn by the majority of folks looking at it if it were posted by non LEO p ...


Im thankful for having a Taser as a tool.  Its very presence in situations has helped resolve them.  Simply displaying the Taser is often all it takes to gain compliance.  My department only allows ASP's, OC and Tasers.  No nunchaku, no night sticks, PR24 etc. Pain compliance is a joke for the most part...its difficult to stay proficient with all that and you better hope the guy you are using it on has a pain threshold.  Some mental people Ive dealt with don't.  Same with OC.  Sap gloves will get you a lawsuit here although some of the oldtimers still carry them. 

Ill wager that this kid died from either a drug issue or some kind of undiagnosed medical issue.
 
2013-08-09 02:43:25 AM  
hubiestubert: And you think that tasering a teenager who was spray painting as his big crime de jour, meets those requirements? Really?

I never said that.  From what I understand of this event, he ran and then allegedly attacked an officer.  He got Tased because he was not complying with the officers while being arrested, not because he was spraypainting.  Lets look at it another way...what if there were no Taser here and the cops got into a fistfight with this kid or something else happens that didnt need to.  Its unfortunate that he died, but the Taser had little to nothing to do with that.
 
2013-08-09 02:44:56 AM  
I can't believe sap gloves are being trotted out as a police option at all. Seems like the dexterity loss would mean you wouldn't go into a situation with them on. Then what do you do, call for a time out to equip yourself?

/never worn a pair, but even thin gloves make shooting a pistol somewhat annoying.
 
2013-08-09 02:45:53 AM  

Smackledorfer: I can't believe sap gloves are being trotted out as a police option at all. Seems like the dexterity loss would mean you wouldn't go into a situation with them on. Then what do you do, call for a time out to equip yourself?

/never worn a pair, but even thin gloves make shooting a pistol somewhat annoying.


sap gloves are from the 80's-90's, at least around here.
 
2013-08-09 03:08:21 AM  

Litterbox: iq_in_binary:

I'm all for LTL weaponry being issued to police, don't get me wrong. But any cop who gets in front of me and tells me that it's a tool that saves lives and then turns around to say that having a Taser pointed at them is justification to shoot somebody has just dropped completely off the list of people who I'd ever do a favor for. Ever. No statements, no questions answered, no aid rendered.

I was trying to make a point about safety of the device.  With all the cops being Tased for the benefit of training, I don't believe there has ever been a fatality.  The "justification" comes when the person is not complying with you, is fighting you, is assaulting someone etc.  The Taser is very effective most of the time.


I've had my Edison cherry popped too, I know what it's like. And it's a serious weapon. I didn't carry one because it wouldn't do ME any good to use it if things went pear shaped, I don't have backup on the way or a dispatcher to send help. Police officers have Glock, Motorola, the Justice system and a whole brotherhood of people with the same to back them up. Pain compliance methods, hand to hand training, verbal judo, physical restraints, capsaicin, night sticks, nunchaku (in more and more PDs, yes), sap gloves, batons, you show me a picture of the contents of your average duty bag and I'll show you a picture of what would normally be considered ITG porn by the majority of folks looking at it if it were posted by non LEO p ...

Im thankful for having a Taser as a tool.  Its very presence in situations has helped resolve them.  Simply displaying the Taser is often all it takes to gain compliance.  My department only allows ASP's, OC and Tasers.  No nunchaku, no night sticks, PR24 etc. Pain compliance is a joke for the most part...its difficult to stay proficient with all that and you better hope the guy you are using it on has a pain threshold.  Some mental people Ive dealt with don't.  Same with OC.  Sap gloves will get you a lawsuit here al ...


I've read that you're from San Antonio, I'm surprised they care about sap gloves but then again I know TX is strangely more strict about CCW and weapon laws than even "liberal" Colorado.

No, that's not my point. My point is: IT'S YOUR JOB. Proficiency, training, practice and evaluation should be at LEAST %15 of your duty hours. I want my cops well trained, well educated, well paid, well taken care of and to reap the professionalism that damn well should come along with those incentives. You damn well better keep up proficiency on pain compliance. You farking better put at least 100 rounds through that duty pistol a week and be given shiat if you aren't qualifying.

But that's a rant for another time. You have a shield. In the state of Texas you have a statewide and pretty damn well wide ranging set of rights granted to you as an LEO. You get to do a TON of things legally in the pursuit of conserving the peace that nobody else does. You better treat it with respect, and you better hold yourself to a higher standard, both physically and mentally, in order to use those rights and duties in the best interest of the people while doing as little harm as possible.

I won't argue your point with the prisons, sorry right there is a tailor made application for Tasers, extreme close quarters sucks when they're CONFINED extreme close quarters. I know, I'm the guy that nobody wants to get into the box with on situational night. I view that as a good use of the Taser.

This situation? No. Wide open space? No weapons? That's not justifiable, in fact it is so asinine that were I on the UOF panel I'd recommend suspension and probation. You're an LEO with a partner on scene. Break out the elbow grease and go to work, it's surprisingly easy when someone is there to help. Or to do it yourself if you're even halfway worth your salt. This was a KID, getting cuffs on him should be considered not just trivial but something you see a suspension for if you fail to do it with as many resources as you had available to you.

My problem isn't with the use of a Taser, my problem is the asinine way in which it was used.
 
2013-08-09 03:15:05 AM  

fnordfocus: vrax: tortilla burger: I hope criminals start using tasers as defence against cops. That would really stir up the pot. If the cop lives, then great - it's a nonlethal weapon. If he dies, that's great too -- because current legal precedent says you didn't murder the guy. The tables aren't so pretty when they're turned, are they?

They certainly could charge someone with assault, but it would be really interesting if they tried for attempted murder or murder.  I don't see how they could do it without setting precedent that would forever be used against them.

Felony murder rule, actually.  Assault on on Officer is a felony, so even an unintended death leads to Murder 1.

Assault by an Officer on a civilian isn't illegal, so it isn't comparable.


So, no evidence, just instant guilty verdict?
 
2013-08-09 03:16:28 AM  

Mambo Bananapatch: Greywar: As a shop owner I have one comment for a vandal dying by misadventure while committing a crime:

Good

You sure are annoying for somebody who thinks it's good that annoying people are put to death.


Probably one of the ones who wants Major Nidal Hasan tortured to death even before his trial because hey he's a filthy Mooslimb who killed American soldiers so why not.
 
2013-08-09 03:30:24 AM  
Maybe it's time we stop calling the thugs in blue "police"
 
2013-08-09 03:30:57 AM  

iq_in_binary: My problem isn't with the use of a Taser, my problem is the asinine way in which it was used.


Well, that is the key issue these days.  "What, you said no to me?!" *ttssszzzzzzttttt*  It's like that guy on the bus from the other day.  They are used way, way too often as replacement for patience and simple physical control.  Can you imagine if this old classic had happened here?! http://youtu.be/UuFWItwakSY  The dude would have been lit up like a Christmas tree at the very least and then probably charged with attempted murder.
 
2013-08-09 03:31:08 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Mambo Bananapatch: Greywar: As a shop owner I have one comment for a vandal dying by misadventure while committing a crime:

Good

You sure are annoying for somebody who thinks it's good that annoying people are put to death.

Probably one of the ones who wants Major Nidal Hasan tortured to death even before his trial because hey he's a filthy Mooslimb who killed American soldiers so why not.


I'm of the mind that it would have been a much preferable outcome for him to be shot to death by the armed soldiers on base.

I'm also of the mind that if you have concerns about a soldier being armed on base, he shouldn't be a soldier. Also that if your soldiers have concerns about being disarmed on base and you ordered it anyway, you shouldn't be an officer. It's a farking BASE. That's the entire point.

But that's just me.
 
2013-08-09 03:47:22 AM  
Meanwhile, unlike the German cop in the above video, here's a cop from my neck of the woods response to a similar "threat": http://youtu.be/GPRv0hXOVC0   Typical cop aggression.  Just yell and threaten instead of trying to talk and deescalate.
 
2013-08-09 04:30:37 AM  
Worthwhile human being killed by gang of worthless thugs.  Since when is this news?
 
GBB
2013-08-09 06:05:28 AM  

iq_in_binary: My problem isn't with the use of a Taser, my problem is the asinine way in which it was used.


Properly?
 
2013-08-09 06:38:38 AM  

vpb: Zombie Butler:

No, no he's right.  When, in the line of duty, a police officer uses less-lethal force to "subdue" a person expressing himself on a wall (which human beings have been doing since we had walls. In fact, it's odd that we insist on perfectly clean walls in this society.) and he/she accidentally murders the youth then the officer should loose his/her badge and face other consequences. Bad choices = bad outcomes amiright?

See what I mean?  A piece of shiat criminal has a heart attack and it's "murder".


Yeah because paint on a wall should = a death sentence by a over zealous cop?

It was five on one they couldn't take him down without using a Taser. I also believe the high five story as I have personally seen cops do it after tazing a guy.
 
2013-08-09 07:11:11 AM  

iq_in_binary: Gyrfalcon: Mambo Bananapatch: Greywar: As a shop owner I have one comment for a vandal dying by misadventure while committing a crime:

Good

You sure are annoying for somebody who thinks it's good that annoying people are put to death.

Probably one of the ones who wants Major Nidal Hasan tortured to death even before his trial because hey he's a filthy Mooslimb who killed American soldiers so why not.

I'm of the mind that it would have been a much preferable outcome for him to be shot to death by the armed soldiers on base.

I'm also of the mind that if you have concerns about a soldier being armed on base, he shouldn't be a soldier. Also that if your soldiers have concerns about being disarmed on base and you ordered it anyway, you shouldn't be an officer. It's a farking BASE. That's the entire point.

But that's just me.


Almost nobody on a base (in the US) is armed outside of MPs. Weapons, even personal ones, are generally required to be stored in the armory.
 
2013-08-09 07:11:52 AM  

Nhojwolfe: Yeah because paint on a wall should = a death sentence by a over zealous cop?


Yeah because...
a) police see person committing minor crime, that person resists arrest, and police try to subdue that person using a method which very rarely kills, and
b) police see person committing minor crime, decide the penalty is death, and then enact that punishment
... are TOTALLY the same thing.
 
2013-08-09 07:12:27 AM  
I hate that it happened but a fleeing and resisting suspect is pretty much like the textbook example of when TO use a taser
 
2013-08-09 07:42:20 AM  

LiberalConservative: Nhojwolfe: Yeah because paint on a wall should = a death sentence by a over zealous cop?

Yeah because...
a) police see person committing minor crime, that person resists arrest, and police try to subdue that person using a method which very rarely kills, and
b) police see person committing minor crime, decide the penalty is death, and then enact that punishment
... are TOTALLY the same thing.


In this case yes it was. My point is tasers are over used. And defended by people who don't want to do their job properly are maybe they are not properly trained.
 
2013-08-09 07:55:53 AM  
image.com.com

Officer dash cam footage
 
2013-08-09 08:02:54 AM  
Its time we stop referring to gawkers as bystandars.  They're called principal witnesses and in the case of cop-on-suspect murder they're also called enforcement.
 
2013-08-09 08:21:39 AM  
First, he shouldn't have been vandalizing.
Second, he shouldn't have run.

It's his own damn fault, cops were right in this case.
 
2013-08-09 08:58:18 AM  
They knew who he was... what the hell is the point of tasering him when they could meet him and home and/or subpoena him?!?

Let alone assault/murder him.  These are - at minimum - torture devises.  Obviously, at maximum the inflict painful, inhumane death.

fark these dickless police.
 
2013-08-09 08:59:09 AM  

scottydoesntknow: lordargent: // which is what makes the rock-it launcher in fallout so much fun

For most things, yes. It still doesn't explain how a teddy bear can gib someone.

Now I'm wondering how fast would you have to fire a teddy bear to make it lethal.


Mass * velocity = x

Where x is the energy delivered.

The human ribcage takes around 400lbs of force to crack, head shot will take around 40lbs of force to start farking things up (like instant ko) get above 60 and you can start breaking necks.

So for a 1lb teddy bear you'd need 300 fps at the target to go lethal. Figure a bleed off of 25fps per 10 feet for the less than ideal shape of the bear and you'd need around 600 fps to have any sort of range. The other thing to consider are the energy absorbing properties of stuffing. Might wanna add in some sort of lead shot in a pouch to ensure a lethal transfer of energy into a small enough target area.

I've done the hard part now go look up pneumatic potato launchers and find one that fits our needs.
 
2013-08-09 09:04:41 AM  

Kiwimann: Zombie Butler:  When, in the line of duty, a police officer uses less-lethal force to "subdue" a person expressing himself on a wall (which human beings have been doing since we had walls.

He was subdued for fleeing arrest.


In and of itself, that's a farking waste of time and life.
 
2013-08-09 09:07:42 AM  

Litterbox: hubiestubert: And you think that tasering a teenager who was spray painting as his big crime de jour, meets those requirements? Really?

I never said that.  From what I understand of this event, he ran and then allegedly attacked an officer.  He got Tased because he was not complying with the officers while being arrested, not because he was spraypainting.  Lets look at it another way...what if there were no Taser here and the cops got into a fistfight with this kid or something else happens that didnt need to.  Its unfortunate that he died, but the Taser had little to nothing to do with that.


In a way, you're right: it's not about the taser itself. It's about the over-reaction and use of force on a teenager who was tagging. Much like if someone got a beat down and died as a result of breathing complications after being cuffed and restrained after running from an officer for jaywalking. The investiture and the use of force that was appropriate is the issue. NOT the device itself. I understand their use, and I understand their place in an inventory to allow officers some leeway when confronted with folks in the field. That use is also predicated on the officer using some f*cking judgment about the use of force. The officers went for the taser as a go to, as opposed using some sense. They got tired, they got angry about running, and they got angry about a bullsh*t call to have to run down a kid with a spray paint can, and as a result, their judgment was skewed and they decided "screw this kid, he's getting to juice because he made my ass run." That this kid died only illustrates the string of poor chain of judgment calls here.

And defending folks for making a string of poor calls is what folks are reacting to. Not the taser. Not their mere presence or existence, but that the officers in question made a bad call, that got someone killed, and that alone should be enough for folks who have some experience with the damn things, or police work in general.
 
2013-08-09 09:12:10 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Tasers were never intended (except possibly by Taser, Inc.) to be "non-lethal". They've always properly been called less-than-lethal or other-than-lethal.

They were also never intended (except ditto) to be used as handy methods of enforcing compliance. They were originally meant to be used--as the "less-lethal" tag might imply--as an alternative to firing a gun. In other words, the Taser was meant to replace a bullet, so that the bad guy could be taken down and might not die in a situation where lethal force was the only other possible alternative. But clearly killing the suspect was still POSSIBLE when using a Taser, so it was not meant to be used except when the only other option was DEFINITELY killing the suspect.

Then it started being used instead of the PR-24, because it was perceived--by police and the public--as being less brutal, mostly because it didn't leave any visible marks; that was post-70's demonstrations, when the public was tired of seeing kids beaten into bloody pulp by blue-clad minions of Mayor Daly. Then along came the Taser, which SEEMED to offer a method of subduing noncompliant suspects without having to physically beat them, disregarding the fact that 50,000 volts of electricity was NEVER MEANT to be used that way.

Tasers were handed to cops basically as an alternative to batons and guns; lost in the translation was the idea that they shouldn't be using ANY of them unless they really really needed to. I know as well as anyone that it can be very difficult to restrain a stubborn, drunk or psycho suspect; that said, most of your suspects are not so drunk or resistant that merely going hands-on will not produce the desired result. But the public perception is that bruises = POLICE BRUTALITY while (so far) Tasers = no marks = not brutality. That's slowly changing, I hope.

It would be nice if all cops had the time and patience to politely talk even the most psycho drugged out killer into the back of a police car without ever having to touch him--that will never happen of course. In a more realistic vein, it would be better if a) Tasers were removed from all cops unless or until b) they can receive the correct training for when and how to use them: To wit, they're lethal weapons to be used only when a bullet would be used. And c) use of a Taser should be treated as use of a firearm for administrative purposes and any cop who uses one should be subject to the same post-incident investigations. And the public needs training too, that Tasers are not "non-lethal." Even if that means taking on Taser, Inc.


So much this. Slapjacks are also a viable alternative to a taser - very little force required great compliance tool.

Pr-24's are bulky as sin. With all the stuff on a bat belt right now the tazer is even bulkier than the slapjack the only issue is then you have to close to contact range.
 
2013-08-09 09:22:15 AM  

iq_in_binary: Litterbox: snuff3r: You know, i would have felt some sympathy had I not read that he was involved in Graffiti. I have assholes graffiti my walls all the time and though obviously i don't believe capital punishment is the solution i certainly don't care of they get killed in the process if there was no intention to kill them.

Having said that, i disagree with state thugs carrying tasers. Horrible devices.

Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.

I'm all for LTL weaponry being issued to police, don't get me wrong. But any cop who gets in front of me and tells me that it's a tool that saves lives and then turns around to say that having a Taser pointed at them is justification to shoot somebody has just dropped completely off the list of people who I'd ever do a favor for. Ever. No statements, no questions answered, no aid rendered.

I've had my Edison cherry popped too, I know what it's like. And it's a serious weapon. I didn't carry one because it wouldn't do ME any good to use it if things went pear shaped, I don't have backup on the way or a dispatcher to send help. Police officers have Glock, Motorola, the Justice system and a whole brotherhood of people with the same to back them up. Pain compliance methods, hand to hand training, verbal judo, physical restraints, capsaicin, night sticks, nunchaku (in more and more PDs, yes), sap gloves, batons, you show me a picture of the contents of your average duty bag and I'll show you a picture of what would normally be considered ITG porn by the majority of folks looking at it if it were posted by non LEO p ...


That was awesome...

\not sarcastic
\\sounds like a good cop
\\\didn't think there could be such a thing anymore
 
2013-08-09 09:25:32 AM  

Litterbox: hubiestubert: And you think that tasering a teenager who was spray painting as his big crime de jour, meets those requirements? Really?

I never said that.  From what I understand of this event, he ran and then allegedly attacked an officer.  He got Tased because he was not complying with the officers while being arrested, not because he was spraypainting.  Lets look at it another way...what if there were no Taser here and the cops got into a fistfight with this kid or something else happens that didnt need to.  Its unfortunate that he died, but the Taser had little to nothing to do with that.


thestupiditburns.jpg
itscominrightforus.jpg
 
2013-08-09 09:26:32 AM  
cops are farking scumbags....nothing new here.
 
2013-08-09 10:07:21 AM  

Litterbox: snuff3r: You know, i would have felt some sympathy had I not read that he was involved in Graffiti. I have assholes graffiti my walls all the time and though obviously i don't believe capital punishment is the solution i certainly don't care of they get killed in the process if there was no intention to kill them.

Having said that, i disagree with state thugs carrying tasers. Horrible devices.

Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.


i706.photobucket.com

Difficulty: not from a Taser manufacturer or Police Department

\and not pulled out yer ass, like your statement above
\\it may take week, months or years but anyone who tases me will get tased back
 
2013-08-09 10:20:38 AM  

Kiwimann: Yeah, read the article.


Really?

 If he hadn't tried to run away from the police who caught him vandalizing private property, he would also be alive today.

FTA: It ended at 71st and Harding when he was cornered by police and ran toward the officers, ignoring commands to stop

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/08/07/3548779/graffiti-artist-dies-af t er-tasering.html#storylink=cpy
Let's just set the scene here:

FTA: Félix Fernández said he saw about five police officers chasing Hernández and shoving him against a wall. ..."He is a very skinny guy, very small"

You have a small guy, unarmed, surrounded by several cops, a wall at his back, who tries to get away by running straight at them.

You think they really needed to taser him, as opposed to just grabbing the guy? Sounds to me like they thought, "har de har, let's zip this sucker."

When some old white person is tazed instead of tackled, there's a furious uproar followed by a six figure out of court settlement.

Do it to someone young and/or brown, meh.
 
2013-08-09 10:24:58 AM  

Litterbox: hubiestubert: And you think that tasering a teenager who was spray painting as his big crime de jour, meets those requirements? Really?

I never said that.  From what I understand of this event, he ran and then allegedly attacked an officer.  He got Tased because he was not complying with the officers while being arrested, not because he was spraypainting.  Lets look at it another way...what if there were no Taser here and the cops got into a fistfight with this kid or something else happens that didnt need to.  Its unfortunate that he died, but the Taser had little to nothing to do with that.


I'm not against cops (well, except when they give me a ticket, in which case they are nothing more that tax collectors) and I will not insult you or call you names. But that last statement leaves me wondering. The kid may have been high, he may have had a preexisting medical condition, but what ultimately killed him was the cops' Taser. Until he ran into the Taser, he had managed to live quite well (though perhaps not productively) with his hypothesized drug habit or medical condition, so those are not what killed him. Have you ever considered that every single time your department uses a Taser there is a possibility (you place it 1:100000) that it will kill someone ? in your city of 20,000,000 that's at least 200 people who should not be tasered. Are you willing to take the risk that everyone you taser is not one of these 200 ?

I bet that within your own department, every time a Taser is used to train one of your own, a doctor is present...
 
2013-08-09 10:38:30 AM  

CheapEngineer: Litterbox: snuff3r: You know, i would have felt some sympathy had I not read that he was involved in Graffiti. I have assholes graffiti my walls all the time and though obviously i don't believe capital punishment is the solution i certainly don't care of they get killed in the process if there was no intention to kill them.

Having said that, i disagree with state thugs carrying tasers. Horrible devices.

Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.

[i706.photobucket.com image 271x271]

Difficulty: not from a Taser manufacturer or Police Department

\and not pulled out yer ass, like your statement above
\\it may take week, months or years but anyone who tases me will get tased back


Not that it is harmless, but statistically it is easily possible that a PD is tasering the shiat out of everyone in town and still not killing anyone.

As has been pointed out, damn near 100% of LEOs that carry have been tased and can tell you that the second it is over you get right back up feeling fine, then you get a little soreness the next day.  Adverse reactions certainly exist, but they really are quite rare.  The question is whether that rarity of occurrence should be grounds to raise the taser higher on the use of force than it is.  Answering that question should be based on something other than letting emotions defeat statistics. Emotions should NEVER be allowed to cloud one's judgement when it comes to statistical probabilities*.

*which doesn't mean emotions shouldn't factor into the decision you make, it doesn't matter how few people die, you are more than welcome to hold the opinion that it is terrible and horrific. What you aren't welcome to do is pretend numbers don't exist and embrace every psychological brain-failure in the book to turn a rare yet salient event into commonplace.  Well, you are allowed to, but it makes you an idiot.
 
2013-08-09 10:47:39 AM  

capt.hollister: I bet that within your own department, every time a Taser is used to train one of your own, a doctor is present...


You might lose that bet.  I know CBP doesn't bring in a doc for taser training.  I couldn't speak to a random internet cop's station though.

capt.hollister: Have you ever considered that every single time your department uses a Taser there is a possibility (you place it 1:100000) that it will kill someone ? in your city of 20,000,000 that's at least 200 people who should not be tasered


Perhaps I am nitpick here, but you did a fair bit of twisting to push this logic through.  First of all he said 1/100,000 has a chance of medical complication, not death.  Furthermore he did not say the odds of anyone getting tazed and having a medical complication was 1/100,000, because even after the 1/100,000 he had a "might" in there.  Finally, if 1/100,000 individuals have perfect storm that makes the taser unsafe, it is unlikely to be distributed among the population evenly.  I highly doubt the average tased individual is the 60 year old with a pacemaker.  I mean, I couldn't speak to the veracity of his 1/100,000 claim to begin with, but if you are going to use his numbers, be honest about it.


capt.hollister: Until he ran into the Taser, he had managed to live quite well (though perhaps not productively) with his hypothesized drug habit or medical condition, so those are not what killed him.


Also, I have to disagree with this line of thinking as well. If a man had a heart condition and fled from the cops and excitement of the chase did him in, would you call the cops murderers for chasing/tackling/etc?  If you would then your statement makes sense for the taser too, I suppose.  But personally I wouldn't in this case blame the police for the heart attack.
 
2013-08-09 11:25:04 AM  

Smackledorfer: capt.hollister: I bet that within your own department, every time a Taser is used to train one of your own, a doctor is present...

You might lose that bet.  I know CBP doesn't bring in a doc for taser training.  I couldn't speak to a random internet cop's station though.

capt.hollister: Have you ever considered that every single time your department uses a Taser there is a possibility (you place it 1:100000) that it will kill someone ? in your city of 20,000,000 that's at least 200 people who should not be tasered

Perhaps I am nitpick here, but you did a fair bit of twisting to push this logic through.  First of all he said 1/100,000 has a chance of medical complication, not death.  Furthermore he did not say the odds of anyone getting tazed and having a medical complication was 1/100,000, because even after the 1/100,000 he had a "might" in there.  Finally, if 1/100,000 individuals have perfect storm that makes the taser unsafe, it is unlikely to be distributed among the population evenly.  I highly doubt the average tased individual is the 60 year old with a pacemaker.  I mean, I couldn't speak to the veracity of his 1/100,000 claim to begin with, but if you are going to use his numbers, be honest about it.


capt.hollister: Until he ran into the Taser, he had managed to live quite well (though perhaps not productively) with his hypothesized drug habit or medical condition, so those are not what killed him.

Also, I have to disagree with this line of thinking as well. If a man had a heart condition and fled from the cops and excitement of the chase did him in, would you call the cops murderers for chasing/tackling/etc?  If you would then your statement makes sense for the taser too, I suppose.  But personally I wouldn't in this case blame the police for the heart attack.


Points well-made and well-taken. I am one of those people who probably should not be tasered, so I am a little sensitive about the issue of Taser safety. The point I was trying to make, perhaps clumsily, is that the safety of Tasers is not absolute (I know that Litterbox did not say it was, but his statement that his dept tasers people on a daily basis with no harm suggests that the officers in his department act as though it were). Cops should keep in mind that every single time they use one, they run the risk of causing serious damage or even death to the individual.

To do a little nitpicking of my own, I did not imply that the cops were murderers. I am reasonably sure that they were not intending to kill the kid and I do not believe that they were left unmoved by his unexpected death. But perhaps that illustrates my point: police officers do not expect a tasering to be lethal, but sometimes it is.
 
2013-08-09 11:43:49 AM  

capt.hollister: Cops should keep in mind that every single time they use one


Agreed.

capt.hollister: To do a little nitpicking of my own, I did not imply that the cops were murderers. I am reasonably sure that they were not intending to kill the kid and I do not believe that they were left unmoved by his unexpected death. But perhaps that illustrates my point: police officers do not expect a tasering to be lethal, but sometimes it is.


My bad, and I agree.
 
2013-08-09 11:50:17 AM  

iq_in_binary: Litterbox: iq_in_binary:

I'm all for LTL weaponry being issued to police, don't get me wrong. But any cop who gets in front of me and tells me that it's a tool that saves lives and then turns around to say that having a Taser pointed at them is justification to shoot somebody has just dropped completely off the list of people who I'd ever do a favor for. Ever. No statements, no questions answered, no aid rendered.

I was trying to make a point about safety of the device.  With all the cops being Tased for the benefit of training, I don't believe there has ever been a fatality.  The "justification" comes when the person is not complying with you, is fighting you, is assaulting someone etc.  The Taser is very effective most of the time.


I've had my Edison cherry popped too, I know what it's like. And it's a serious weapon. I didn't carry one because it wouldn't do ME any good to use it if things went pear shaped, I don't have backup on the way or a dispatcher to send help. Police officers have Glock, Motorola, the Justice system and a whole brotherhood of people with the same to back them up. Pain compliance methods, hand to hand training, verbal judo, physical restraints, capsaicin, night sticks, nunchaku (in more and more PDs, yes), sap gloves, batons, you show me a picture of the contents of your average duty bag and I'll show you a picture of what would normally be considered ITG porn by the majority of folks looking at it if it were posted by non LEO p ...

Im thankful for having a Taser as a tool.  Its very presence in situations has helped resolve them.  Simply displaying the Taser is often all it takes to gain compliance.  My department only allows ASP's, OC and Tasers.  No nunchaku, no night sticks, PR24 etc. Pain compliance is a joke for the most part...its difficult to stay proficient with all that and you better hope the guy you are using it on has a pain threshold.  Some mental people Ive dealt with don't.  Same with OC.  Sap gloves will get you a laws ...


I hear you and agree with most of what you said.  Having a partner makes a huge difference, yes.  That said, we still do not know what actually happened in this case ( at least I haven't heard anything) so trying to quarterback it is folly.  Im proficient with everything I carry, but your suggestion to do 100 rounds a month is crazy!  Nobody got money for that lol.  And if you know where we can get that kind of ammo, let me know!
 
2013-08-09 11:54:00 AM  

Nhojwolfe: LiberalConservative: Nhojwolfe: Yeah because paint on a wall should = a death sentence by a over zealous cop?

Yeah because...
a) police see person committing minor crime, that person resists arrest, and police try to subdue that person using a method which very rarely kills, and
b) police see person committing minor crime, decide the penalty is death, and then enact that punishment
... are TOTALLY the same thing.

In this case yes it was. My point is tasers are over used. And defended by people who don't want to do their job properly are maybe they are not properly trained.


And you apparently know zero about either of those issues.  Why is it that the least educated people on a topic have to comment as if they know?
 
2013-08-09 11:54:35 AM  

Oldiron_79: I hate that it happened but a fleeing and resisting suspect is pretty much like the textbook example of when TO use a taser


ding ding ding.  Winner winner....
 
2013-08-09 11:59:21 AM  

CheapEngineer: Litterbox: snuff3r: You know, i would have felt some sympathy had I not read that he was involved in Graffiti. I have assholes graffiti my walls all the time and though obviously i don't believe capital punishment is the solution i certainly don't care of they get killed in the process if there was no intention to kill them.

Having said that, i disagree with state thugs carrying tasers. Horrible devices.

Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.

[i706.photobucket.com image 271x271]

Difficulty: not from a Taser manufacturer or Police Department

\and not pulled out yer ass, like your statement above
\\it may take week, months or years but anyone who tases me will get tased back


Between our law enforcement division (serving somewhere around 500K) and detention division (about 3,500 inmates), I would put the number at anywhere between 3-5 a week.
 
2013-08-09 12:02:55 PM  
Threads like this make me want to smile and condescendingly pat some people on the head, like the children they appear to be.

We get it, you have decided that the police are your enemy; maybe you absorb youth culture like a sponge or perhaps engage in illegal activity of your own, and thus are a criminal.  Whatever the reason, you feel personally and directly threatened by the police, and so automatically view every act by the police not as upholding the law, but rather as a potential injury to your own person.

I especially enjoy when folks like this work against their own best interests, and advocate more lethal alternatives to devices like tasers, such as pepper spray (rarely used now a days), clubbing with nightsticks, asps or other device, or simple, straight up physically tacking and beating, all of which have a statistically higher injury and mortality rate than tasers.

Perhaps the most amusing of all is those who suggest that, because the crime is small in scope, the police should be negligent, or lazy, when they come across a perpetrator, especially one caught in the act.  The ones that use phrases like, "They should have just let him go."  If law enforcement is going to make a ruling like, "We won't chase you if you're involved in the commission of these crimes: ____" official, they are really making them legal.  If there's no enforcement of the law, there's no purpose to the law.

The fact that these claimants effectively want police to be able to have this power to subjectively determine which laws they should enforce or not is doubly amusing, given the standard distrust of law enforcement.  If I distrusted law enforcement, I certainly wouldn't want them to be able to effectively overrule both prior legislation and the entire judicial system on a whim.

Then again, the individuals who do suggest these views are thinking like children, after all.  It's all remedial 'Us vs. Them' with no rational basis other than the concept of opposing sides.
 
2013-08-09 12:10:10 PM  

Litterbox: Nhojwolfe: LiberalConservative: Nhojwolfe: Yeah because paint on a wall should = a death sentence by a over zealous cop?

Yeah because...
a) police see person committing minor crime, that person resists arrest, and police try to subdue that person using a method which very rarely kills, and
b) police see person committing minor crime, decide the penalty is death, and then enact that punishment
... are TOTALLY the same thing.

In this case yes it was. My point is tasers are over used. And defended by people who don't want to do their job properly are maybe they are not properly trained.

And you apparently know zero about either of those issues.  Why is it that the least educated people on a topic have to comment as if they know?



Im glad you know my background and training.
Please continue with other things about myself I may not be aware of.

Im also guessing when you go to taze someone you know their complete medical history before hand, and know that a electric shock through the system wont cause painful injury or in this case death.

Tasers should be used one step above guns.  Its been my experience latley that they are used way to early,  and situations can be defused the old fashion way most of the time.  Hey why waist the time taze them book or send them to the morge and move on.
 
2013-08-09 12:13:49 PM  

capt.hollister: Litterbox: hubiestubert: And you think that tasering a teenager who was spray painting as his big crime de jour, meets those requirements? Really?

I never said that.  From what I understand of this event, he ran and then allegedly attacked an officer.  He got Tased because he was not complying with the officers while being arrested, not because he was spraypainting.  Lets look at it another way...what if there were no Taser here and the cops got into a fistfight with this kid or something else happens that didnt need to.  Its unfortunate that he died, but the Taser had little to nothing to do with that.

I'm not against cops (well, except when they give me a ticket, in which case they are nothing more that tax collectors) and I will not insult you or call you names. But that last statement leaves me wondering. The kid may have been high, he may have had a preexisting medical condition, but what ultimately killed him was the cops' Taser. Until he ran into the Taser, he had managed to live quite well (though perhaps not productively) with his hypothesized drug habit or medical condition, so those are not what killed him. Have you ever considered that every single time your department uses a Taser there is a possibility (you place it 1:100000) that it will kill someone ? in your city of 20,000,000 that's at least 200 people who should not be tasered. Are you willing to take the risk that everyone you taser is not one of these 200 ?

I bet that within your own department, every time a Taser is used to train one of your own, a doctor is present...


You would categorically lose that bet.  Doctors are not present at all because there is no need for them.  Hell, when these people are shot with the Taser in the field, the probes are removed by the officers in most cases.  In our detention center, we remove the probes with our response team and the inmates are checked by either an LVN or a MA. They get a band-aid for the probe wound and sent back to their cell.  The 1:100,000 figure is from Taser themselves.  There is nothing to prove that this kid died from the Taser..heck, for all we know it was excited delirium. Everything is pure speculation at this point.  Also, keep in mind that when we train new officers as Taser operators, you are looking at 20-25 people all getting shot with the Taser in one instance.  Thats like a years worth of people for a medium sized department.  0 deaths. 0 complications.  Also, no cocaine, no heroin, no meth, no excited delirium etc.  The Taser instructors are shot repeatedly during their training and have to endure it yearly.  Again, 0 deaths, 0 complications.
 
2013-08-09 01:14:51 PM  

quietwalker: Threads like this make me want to smile and condescendingly pat some people on the head, like the children they appear to be.

We get it, you have decided that the police are your enemy; maybe you absorb youth culture like a sponge or perhaps engage in illegal activity of your own, and thus are a criminal.  Whatever the reason, you feel personally and directly threatened by the police, and so automatically view every act by the police not as upholding the law, but rather as a potential injury to your own person.

I especially enjoy when folks like this work against their own best interests, and advocate more lethal alternatives to devices like tasers, such as pepper spray (rarely used now a days), clubbing with nightsticks, asps or other device, or simple, straight up physically tacking and beating, all of which have a statistically higher injury and mortality rate than tasers.

Perhaps the most amusing of all is those who suggest that, because the crime is small in scope, the police should be negligent, or lazy, when they come across a perpetrator, especially one caught in the act.  The ones that use phrases like, "They should have just let him go."  If law enforcement is going to make a ruling like, "We won't chase you if you're involved in the commission of these crimes: ____" official, they are really making them legal.  If there's no enforcement of the law, there's no purpose to the law.

The fact that these claimants effectively want police to be able to have this power to subjectively determine which laws they should enforce or not is doubly amusing, given the standard distrust of law enforcement.  If I distrusted law enforcement, I certainly wouldn't want them to be able to effectively overrule both prior legislation and the entire judicial system on a whim.

Then again, the individuals who do suggest these views are thinking like children, after all.  It's all remedial 'Us vs. Them' with no rational basis other than the concept of opposing sides.


Best post in this whole thread.  Nice.
 
2013-08-09 04:09:02 PM  

Smackledorfer: CheapEngineer: Litterbox: snuff3r: You know, i would have felt some sympathy had I not read that he was involved in Graffiti. I have assholes graffiti my walls all the time and though obviously i don't believe capital punishment is the solution i certainly don't care of they get killed in the process if there was no intention to kill them.

Having said that, i disagree with state thugs carrying tasers. Horrible devices.

Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.

[i706.photobucket.com image 271x271]

Difficulty: not from a Taser manufacturer or Police Department

\and not pulled out yer ass, like your statement above
\\it may take week, months or years but anyone who tases me will get tased back

Not that it is harmless, but statistically it is easily possible that a PD is tasering the shiat out of everyone in town and still not killing anyone.

As has been pointed out, damn near 100% of LEOs that carry have been tased and can tell you that the second it is over you get right back up feeling fine, then you get a little soreness the next day.  Adverse reactions certainly exist, but they really are quite rare.  The question is whether that rarity of occurrence should be grounds to raise the taser higher on the use of force than it is.  Answering that question should be based on something other than letting emotions defeat statistics. Emotions should NEVER be allowed to cloud one's judgement when it comes to statistical probabilities*.

*which doesn't mean emotions shouldn't factor into the decision you make, it doesn't matter how few people die, you are mor ...


You're comparing the response of a prepared, relaxed Police officer who *knows* there are trained personnel there to help them( and knows it's just a demonstration) - to someone who is at *minimum* seriously agitated and thinks, true or not, that they are running for their life and someone's tryibng to torture them.

Comparing the effect of a taser under controlled conditions with Real Life is silly, and pointless.

If I was sure that all police officers are well trained, thoughtful stewards of the law who considered each situation before using the appropriate amount of force (somehow police forces for years and years managed to find ways to control the situation *before* tasers and pepper spray, and *didn't* just shoot people in the head) then tasers as a tool for law enforcement wouldn't bother me.

But the "fact" that more often than ever we are hearing about dumb-ass cops and security guards are firing tasers and spraying pepper spray for punishment's sake makes me think that since y'all wont police yourselves, I'm all for taking your f'ing toys away until you know how to use them.
 
2013-08-09 04:12:54 PM  

quietwalker: Threads like this make me want to smile and condescendingly pat some people on the head, like the children they appear to be.

We get it, you have decided that the police are your enemy; maybe you absorb youth culture like a sponge or perhaps engage in illegal activity of your own, and thus are a criminal.  Whatever the reason, you feel personally and directly threatened by the police, and so automatically view every act by the police not as upholding the law, but rather as a potential injury to your own person.

I especially enjoy when folks like this work against their own best interests, and advocate more lethal alternatives to devices like tasers, such as pepper spray (rarely used now a days), clubbing with nightsticks, asps or other device, or simple, straight up physically tacking and beating, all of which have a statistically higher injury and mortality rate than tasers.

Perhaps the most amusing of all is those who suggest that, because the crime is small in scope, the police should be negligent, or lazy, when they come across a perpetrator, especially one caught in the act.  The ones that use phrases like, "They should have just let him go."  If law enforcement is going to make a ruling like, "We won't chase you if you're involved in the commission of these crimes: ____" official, they are really making them legal.  If there's no enforcement of the law, there's no purpose to the law.

The fact that these claimants effectively want police to be able to have this power to subjectively determine which laws they should enforce or not is doubly amusing, given the standard distrust of law enforcement.  If I distrusted law enforcement, I certainly wouldn't want them to be able to effectively overrule both prior legislation and the entire judicial system on a whim.

Then again, the individuals who do suggest these views are thinking like children, after all.  It's all remedial 'Us vs. Them' with no rational basis other than the concept of opposing sides.


Beautiful Strawman. Lovingly constructed with Artisinal WheatStraw by a Licensed Bullshiat artist.

\it's so much easier to win your arguments when you can tell everyone what your opponents think
\\saves time, and conserves valuable electrons
 
2013-08-09 04:16:09 PM  

quietwalker: more lethal alternatives to devices like tasers, such as pepper spray


Is that really true? The stats I can easily find show somewhere around 500 documented taser deaths in the US, vs. less than 100 for pepper spray... I suppose that could just be due to tasers being used more often than pepper spray... But, I'm curious what source you're going by to determine pepper spray is more lethal?
 
2013-08-09 04:17:36 PM  
I've long wished they would declare open season on taggers. Nothing turns a nice are into a shiat hole faster than a bunch of graffiti. Costs millions each year to clean up.
 
2013-08-09 04:59:02 PM  

CheapEngineer: Smackledorfer: CheapEngineer: Litterbox: snuff3r: You know, i would have felt some sympathy had I not read that he was involved in Graffiti. I have assholes graffiti my walls all the time and though obviously i don't believe capital punishment is the solution i certainly don't care of they get killed in the process if there was no intention to kill them.

Having said that, i disagree with state thugs carrying tasers. Horrible devices.

Those "horrible devices" have saved a lot of lives, prevented a lot of injuries and resolved an untold number of incidents where it could have gone a whole lot worse.  My department Tases people on a daily basis and we have yet to have anyone die.  And the officers that carry them are required to be Tasered every year.  Taser instructors have been Tased dozens of times.  Lets wait for the toxicology test to come back on this "artist".  My guess is cocaine.

[i706.photobucket.com image 271x271]

Difficulty: not from a Taser manufacturer or Police Department

\and not pulled out yer ass, like your statement above
\\it may take week, months or years but anyone who tases me will get tased back

Not that it is harmless, but statistically it is easily possible that a PD is tasering the shiat out of everyone in town and still not killing anyone.

As has been pointed out, damn near 100% of LEOs that carry have been tased and can tell you that the second it is over you get right back up feeling fine, then you get a little soreness the next day.  Adverse reactions certainly exist, but they really are quite rare.  The question is whether that rarity of occurrence should be grounds to raise the taser higher on the use of force than it is.  Answering that question should be based on something other than letting emotions defeat statistics. Emotions should NEVER be allowed to cloud one's judgement when it comes to statistical probabilities*.

*which doesn't mean emotions shouldn't factor into the decision you make, it doesn't matter how few people die, you are mor ...

You're comparing the response of a prepared, relaxed Police officer who *knows* there are trained personnel there to help them( and knows it's just a demonstration) - to someone who is at *minimum* seriously agitated and thinks, true or not, that they are running for their life and someone's tryibng to torture them.

Comparing the effect of a taser under controlled conditions with Real Life is silly, and pointless.

If I was sure that all police officers are well trained, thoughtful stewards of the law who considered each situation before using the appropriate amount of force (somehow police forces for years and years managed to find ways to control the situation *before* tasers and pepper spray, and *didn't* just shoot people in the head) then tasers as a tool for law enforcement wouldn't bother me.

But the "fact" that more often than ever we are hearing about dumb-ass cops and security guards are firing tasers and spraying pepper spray for punishment's sake makes me think that since y'all wont police yourselves, I'm all for taking your f'ing toys away until you know how to use them.


First, I am not a cop so I don't know why you are addressing me as one.

Second, your post is shenanigans.
 
2013-08-09 06:05:38 PM  

anuran: Nobody deserves to die for petty vandalism. But stop romanticizing him. Taggers are like dogs pissing on fire hydrants except that taggers' mess is expensive to clean up


Who is romanticising him ?

(taggers are worse than dogs pissing, dog piss is easier to clean off)
 
2013-08-09 06:12:00 PM  

dr_blasto: BummerDuck: I would be outraged if he was innocent.

1. He was vandalizing private property.
2. He resisted arrest.

No need to read further. Outcome was harsh, but avoidable by not being a punk. No loss to society IMO.

I disagree. Every time the cops use violence society loses. Every time someone dies from cop violence, society loses even more. They should have let the punk go.


Let him go? So he keeps trashing our stuff? My buddy had his truck get tagged right in his own driveway, twice in as many months. Cost close to two grand to have the panel repainted twice. A bunch of other victims in the same neighborhood were hit with tags on their homes and cars. The kind of human trash who vandalizes other people's property benefits nobody.
 
2013-08-09 06:13:00 PM  

Smackledorfer: First, I am not a cop so I don't know why you are addressing me as one.


Don't remember calling you a cop. It's not generally an insult, but sorry regardless.

Second, your post is shenanigans.

xaxor.com

\Cheers!
 
2013-08-09 07:19:51 PM  
Under no circumstances is vandalism an acceptable reason to put someone's life in danger.
 
2013-08-09 07:33:35 PM  

parasol: Let's hope, someday, should fate throw you an unexpected death and leave your story to reporters, that you aren't judged by strangers who live far from where you did and want to assume the worst - and share that assumption - with many more strangers. You should have some dignity.
Let's hope that your unexpected death isn't because you committed a misdemeanor
Lets hope you don't have an older sister who loved you and has access to the web, too


Let's hope that you emulate your hero, get high, commit a misdemeanor and are confronted by the police.

Let's hope you miscalculate the dosage of whatever street drug you're on and it makes you irrational.

Let's hope that that your last act is to attack some police who have had their Tasers taken away because of bullshiat artists like yourself and so they use their service weapons to spray paint your brains onto whatever wall you happen to be running by as you attack them.

It wouldn't be ironic but it would be an unfortuitous coincidence.

No life is ever truly wasted, yours or his can always serve as a cautionary tale.  Don't be a dumbass.
 
2013-08-09 07:48:43 PM  

koder: Under no circumstances is vandalism an acceptable reason to put someone's life in danger.


They tazed his ass and the weak little punk couldn't take it and died. The kid made a terrible decision and paid dearly for it, not the cops fault. Being an idiot is sometimes deadly.
 
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