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(Salon)   You thought it said what??: 5 ways fundamentalists misinterpret the Bible   (salon.com) divider line 129
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6379 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Aug 2013 at 12:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-08 11:43:11 AM  
Only 5?
 
2013-08-08 11:56:49 AM  
Let's be fair, Fundies do not misinterpret the Bible, that would imply the actually READ the book.
 
2013-08-08 12:07:24 PM  

Ennuipoet: Let's be fair, Fundies do not misinterpret the Bible, that would imply the actually READ the book.

Read

, yes.

Understand, no.
 
2013-08-08 12:10:26 PM  
You can't misinterpret something when it has been intentionally written and edited in a way that is open-ended enough that it can be used to mean anything.

That's why smart people don't use parables and fables as their only source of wisdom about the universe around them.
 
2013-08-08 12:10:48 PM  
Misinterpreting it as being meant to be taken literally.
 
2013-08-08 12:11:38 PM  
I'm still waiting for someone to find me a verse which outlaws gay marriage.
 
2013-08-08 12:12:01 PM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Ennuipoet: Let's be fair, Fundies do not misinterpret the Bible, that would imply the actually READ the book.

Read, yes.

Understand, no.


I imagine fundies comprehending the Bible is like me comprehending Finnegan's Wake.

/i'll never finish understand that book
 
2013-08-08 12:12:53 PM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Ennuipoet: Let's be fair, Fundies do not misinterpret the Bible, that would imply the actually READ the book.

Read, yes.

Understand, no.


I'll go with selective reading. If you condemn homosexuals with a ham and cheese sandwich in you hand, you are doing it wrong.
 
2013-08-08 12:13:40 PM  
Nothing about sheep and goats?

If I wanted someone to interpret the Old Testament, I'd talk to a Jew.
 
2013-08-08 12:16:09 PM  
Like how everyone always gets the ten commandments wrong?
 
2013-08-08 12:16:39 PM  
It's because their pastors and FOX News lie to them about what the bible says. They were warned in the New Testament about that.. if they bothered to read it front to back.
 
2013-08-08 12:17:17 PM  

scottydoesntknow: Only 5?


Damn, came to say exactly this...
 
2013-08-08 12:17:46 PM  

scottydoesntknow: Only 5?


Yes, just the five. Husbands should be like Kleenex: soft, strong and disposable.

wait...what?
 
2013-08-08 12:20:21 PM  
#1 They don't actually read it, but just trust their pastor/minister/priest.
 
2013-08-08 12:20:30 PM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Ennuipoet: Let's be fair, Fundies do not misinterpret the Bible, that would imply the actually READ the book.

Read, yes.

Understand, no.


I should have phrased my statement that way.  I read the Bible in my late teens while struggling to come to grips with my lack of faith, and I didn't understand it.  I finally wrapped my head around it years later in college when I took a few classes on Biblical history.
 
2013-08-08 12:21:29 PM  

BafflerMeal: Like how everyone always gets the ten commandments wrong?


That's always been the most humorous bit to me.  Take a look at the wikipedia page on the 10 commandments - it's got seven different numbering systems for them.

Fundamentalists expect me to believe that gays should be stoned because of one single sentence written 3000 years ago and translated about a dozen times - when the same book has trouble consistently counting past 9?
 
2013-08-08 12:21:37 PM  

simplicimus: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Ennuipoet: Let's be fair, Fundies do not misinterpret the Bible, that would imply the actually READ the book.

Read, yes.

Understand, no.

I'll go with selective reading. If you condemn homosexuals with a ham and cheese sandwich in you hand, you are doing it wrong.


Pretty much this.  Unless you live under the precepts of Levitical law, you better watch yourself on how you condemn others.  Article is pretty spot on, though.  My Christian belief system looks nothing like the Fundies and I am surrounded by them here in Texas.  I do love getting into a debate with them where they start spouting scripture, because I can throw it back in their face.  With kindness, of course.  Heap burning coals :D
 
2013-08-08 12:24:17 PM  
Galatians 5:14For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Romans 14:1-23 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

Hebrews 13:2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Jeremiah 22:3 Thus says the Lord: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place.

Leviticus 24:22You shall have the same rule for the sojourner and for the native, for I am the Lord your God."

Exodus 12:49There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you."

Romans 13:8-10Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Malachi 3:5 "Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts.

Leviticus 25:35-38"If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you. Take no interest from him or profit, but fear your God, that your brother may live beside you. You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan, and to be your God.

Leviticus 24:16 Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.

Exodus 23:12 "Six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your servant woman, and the alien, may be refreshed.

Exodus 20:10But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.

Ezekiel 22:29The people of the land have practiced extortion and committed robbery. They have oppressed the poor and needy, and have extorted from the sojourner without justice.

Leviticus 25:45You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.

Isaiah 25:6On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

Genesis 19:1-38 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth and said, "My lords, please turn aside to your servant's house and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you may rise up early and go on your way." They said, "No; we will spend the night in the town square." But he pressed them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house. And he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them." ...

1 Peter 2:9But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Romans 1:26-27 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Romans 1:1-32Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, ...

Numbers 9:11 In the second month on the fourteenth day at twilight they shall keep it. They shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

Numbers 1:51When the tabernacle is to set out, the Levites shall take it down, and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up. And if any outsider comes near, he shall be put to death.

Leviticus 25:44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you.

Leviticus 22:19If it is to be accepted for you it shall be a male without blemish, of the bulls or the sheep or the goats.

Leviticus 22:18"Speak to Aaron and his sons and all the people of Israel and say to them, When any one of the house of Israel or of the sojourners in Israel presents a burnt offering as his offering, for any of their vows or freewill offerings that they offer to the Lord,

Leviticus 22:12If a priest's daughter marries a layman, she shall not eat of the contribution of the holy things.

Leviticus 22:10 "A lay person shall not eat of a holy thing; no foreign guest of the priest or hired servant shall eat of a holy thing,

Leviticus 18:1-30 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, I am the Lord your God. You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you. You shall not walk in their statutes. You shall follow my rules and keep my statutes and walk in them. I am the Lord your God. You shall therefore keep my statutes and my rules; if a person does them, he shall live by them: I am the Lord. ...

Leviticus 17:10"If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people.

Leviticus 17:8 "And you shall say to them, Any one of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice

Exodus 29:33 They shall eat those things with which atonement was made at their ordination and consecration, but an outsider shall not eat of them, because they are holy.

Exodus 12:48 If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

James 1:14-15 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Hebrews 13:4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.

Philemon 1:2 And Apphia our sister and Archippus our fellow soldier, and the church in your house:

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 2:1-29 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man-you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself-that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. ...

Matthew 27:7 So they took counsel and bought with them the potter's field as a burial place for strangers.

Daniel 1:8But Daniel resolved that he would not defile himself with the king's food, or with the wine that he drank. Therefore he asked the chief of the eunuchs to allow him not to defile himself.

Isaiah 5:11 Woe to those who rise early in the morning, that they may run after strong drink, who tarry late into the evening as wine inflames them!

Judges 19:1-30 In those days, when there was no king in Israel, a certain Levite was sojourning in the remote parts of the hill country of Ephraim, who took to himself a concubine from Bethlehem in Judah. And his concubine was unfaithful to him, and she went away from him to her father's house at Bethlehem in Judah, and was there some four months. Then her husband arose and went after her, to speak kindly to her and bring her back. He had with him his servant and a couple of donkeys. And she brought him into her father's house. And when the girl's father saw him, he came with joy to meet him. And his father-in-law, the girl's father, made him stay, and he remained with him three days. So they ate and drank and spent the night there. And on the fourth day they arose early in the morning, and he prepared to go, but the girl's father said to his son-in-law, "Strengthen your heart with a morsel of bread, and after that you may go." ...

Leviticus 22:25 Neither shall you offer as the bread of your God any such animals gotten from a foreigner. Since there is a blemish in them, because of their mutilation, they will not be accepted for you."

Exodus 12:43 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the statute of the Passover: no foreigner shall eat of it,


You aren't arguing against liberals, "those people" or "commies". You are arguing against God and Jesus. Did not Jesus warn you about being hypocrites and against showing hate?
 
2013-08-08 12:24:26 PM  
I think that number is off by a couple orders of magnitude.
 
2013-08-08 12:24:41 PM  
Cafeteria Christians, they take what they want and leave the rest on the table.
 
2013-08-08 12:26:48 PM  
It's almost as if fundamentalist don't actually care about what is in the bible but instead are using it as an appeal to authority so they can rationalize their own poorly thought out arguments and justify their feeling of supremacy.
 
2013-08-08 12:27:49 PM  

skozlaw: You can't misinterpret something when it has been intentionally written and edited in a way that is open-ended enough that it can be used to mean anything.

That's why smart people don't use parables and fables as their only source of wisdom about the universe around them.


This.  Though, in fairness to (all three or so of) the Christians that are honest in their intentions and not intentionally disingenuous and hypocritical, that is for a fairly broad use of the word "intentional".  Most of the self-contradiction in the book used to justify whatever you feel like at the moment is as much a result of the basic statistics of compiling 1500 years of old wives' tales as it is clerics intentionally being dicks.

For every 'two heads are better than one' you have a 'too many cooks spoil the pot' just in English fake-wisdom from the last century, that only gets worse as you expand the reference pool without any way to categorize which old-woman advice to take seriously.  This is why books of random folk-lore and family/tribal rules from a hundred eras and situations piled together with essentially no context is  not a good guide for your moral decisions.
 
2013-08-08 12:29:11 PM  
Fundies think that all those verses in the bible apply only to the individual. When the government acts to advances those biblical principles, it's a bad thing.

/except for gay marriage, contraception, and abortion, of course
 
2013-08-08 12:29:39 PM  
To be fair, this article is also cherry-picking and decontextualizing Bible verses, just like the Fundamentalists do. The reality is that the Bible is a large document, rife with contradictions, metaphor, poetry, mythology, law, and history. Any large work, of that kind of complexity, compiled over that long a history, re-interpreted and re-envisioned with each new generation, becomes a mirror. The only thing you see in the Bible is what you put there. The Bible  always supports the beliefs of the person using it.
 
2013-08-08 12:31:39 PM  

Karac: BafflerMeal: Like how everyone always gets the ten commandments wrong?

That's always been the most humorous bit to me.  Take a look at the wikipedia page on the 10 commandments - it's got seven different numbering systems for them.

Fundamentalists expect me to believe that gays should be stoned because of one single sentence written 3000 years ago and translated about a dozen times - when the same book has trouble consistently counting past 9?



It's more fun than that even.  In Exodus 20 Moses is like "here's what god said".  And he rattled off a list similar to what people know but there were no tablets or naming them the 'commandments', just him passing along hearsay (yes, I know).  Then later in Exodus 34 Moses goes back up on the mountain and god says, "hey man.  write this stuff down for a change.  And also, I command these things".  So Moses *then* chisels out a bullet'd list on tablets *that is different* from the list a few pages back.

And so everyone around the world with their decorative wall hanging of the tablets, or their courthouse sculpture have the wrong words on their tablets...
 
2013-08-08 12:33:08 PM  
scienceblogs.com
 
2013-08-08 12:34:57 PM  
Think of Martin Luther King Jr., Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi and Thich Quang Duc...

He couldn't come up with even one white guy or a woman to put on the list.
 
2013-08-08 12:37:24 PM  
Does it have the prosperity gospel?

Because the prosperity gospel makes me angry.

Not only does Jesus EXPLICITLY STATE that it does not work that way, the ONLY people he gets angry at in the story/mythology of the Bible are, really, the Moneychangers in the temple.

Not the roman guards that came to take him to his execution (he HEALS one of them).

Not Judas.

Not *SATAN* in the desert. (He seems more..annoyed than angry?)

But the moneychangers in the temple? The folks using a holy site to enrich themselves and line their own coffers? Holy shiat, does he get ripsnortingly pissed.

And then the prosperity gospel comes along and just.. gah. ARGH. I'm not even sure why it makes me so angry, but it does. Maybe because it seems like such a blatant and bizarre perversion.
 
2013-08-08 12:37:35 PM  
In all fairness, lots of Christians misinterpret the Bible, especially the Old Testament. But as Lewis Black said, "Not their fault. Not their book."
 
2013-08-08 12:37:41 PM  
Princess Ryans Knickers:

tl;dr

blah blah "and the genitals of her lovers were like horses, and their ejaculations like those of donkeys" blah blah.  Good Bible.

Heraclitus:
Cafeteria Christians, they take what they want and leave the rest on the table.

Technically, those are "buffet Christians".  Also identified by tipping with religious pamphlets if at all.
 
2013-08-08 12:37:48 PM  
Immigration:

When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. - Leviticus 19:33-34.


Actually there is dispute about the meaning of this given the context of the times. "Stranger" may just mean someone of your culture that speaks your language that you don't know because he comes from some distance away. The Bible is not known for its stories of intercultural tolerance and harmony. Presumably the people who were nice to the Jews in Egypt were other Jews.

There may have been a policy of not killing cultural foreigners outright just because they were foreign but there is no evidence of treating them as family.
 
2013-08-08 12:38:34 PM  
I think we should all remember Matthew 21:17

Yeah, think about it!
 
2013-08-08 12:39:39 PM  
"By applying it to a secular government" suspiciously absent.

Hell, Deuteronomy says you must follow the laws of the place in which you live, laying out pretty clearly that the Biblical author expects The Faithful to live under systems other than the one described.

// also, I don't see a single leader with The Law bound to their arm
 
2013-08-08 12:39:50 PM  

Witty_Retort: Nothing about sheep and goats?

If I wanted someone to interpret the Old Testament, I'd talk to a Jew.


I used to date a Jewish girl. She once told me, "The Bible is a weird book. The hero dies in the middle."
 
2013-08-08 12:39:59 PM  

Karac: I'm still waiting for someone to find me a verse which outlaws gay marriage.


It falls under having sex in the temple of Moloch as parts of the harvest rites and the Jewish worship of Babylonian deities. I thought that was quite clear. That and it help crack down on the practices of Mithras, so it made the conversion of the Roman legions easier by Constantine. If that is not a good enough reason, I do not know what is.
 
2013-08-08 12:43:11 PM  

Karac: Fundamentalists expect me to believe that gays should be stoned because of one single sentence written 3000 years ago and translated about a dozen times - when the same book has trouble consistently counting past 9?


Strictly speaking, in US protestant theology:

1. Leviticus (where most of the 'stoning' bits are) is part of the fulfilled law, and non-Jewish Christians aren't required to obey it because it's part of the pact with the tribe of Israel specifically rather than the general covenant between Jesus and the Church.  Technically the same can be said of the ten commandments, save that they're mostly reaffirmed in the new testament.

2. Similarly, hatred of homosexual acts is not based on the Leviticus shiat strictly speaking, but New Testament statements made by Paul and the post-ressurection Jesus, in what us non-Christians tend to think of as the part of the bible written after dropping the brown acid, but for the Christians the command is legit.  They're actually told _not_ to harm those that sin, though, just that gay men at least are going to hell to burn forever.  Which isn't pleasant, but at least isn't a call to violence, so there's that.

If you keep the doctrine of fullfillment or whatever in mind and remember the influence of Calvinism and the dominionist movement on US protestant thought, a lot of the behavior of the churches makes a lot more sense.  Don't get me wrong, it's still stupid, but you'll find yourself less flabbergasted by the randomness of who they decided to target this week and be more of the "eh, that's dumb, but I guess I get it" type.
 
2013-08-08 12:43:58 PM  
Boyd Crowder, please report to the Fark Politics tab.
 
2013-08-08 12:44:04 PM  

HairBolus: Actually there is dispute about the meaning of this given the context of the times.


[citation needed]

A "stranger" is someone who lives there who practices another faith. In Hebrew, the term "ger" means "nation" - the verse implying that just because a member of another tribe lives among you doesn't give you license to treat them badly. In fact, Exodus (among others) specifically says you can't use a different measure for the stranger, and in general that you can't withhold alms (aid) from them because of that status. There are many times where the phrase "the stranger (ger) that lives in your midst" is used, which would be meaningless if "stranger" always meant "someone who lives far away".
 
2013-08-08 12:45:34 PM  
There was no APPLE in the story of Adam and Eve. TOTES CRAY
 
2013-08-08 12:45:40 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Karac: Fundamentalists expect me to believe that gays should be stoned because of one single sentence written 3000 years ago and translated about a dozen times - when the same book has trouble consistently counting past 9?

Strictly speaking, in US protestant theology:

1. Leviticus (where most of the 'stoning' bits are) is part of the fulfilled law, and non-Jewish Christians aren't required to obey it because it's part of the pact with the tribe of Israel specifically rather than the general covenant between Jesus and the Church.  Technically the same can be said of the ten commandments, save that they're mostly reaffirmed in the new testament.

2. Similarly, hatred of homosexual acts is not based on the Leviticus shiat strictly speaking, but New Testament statements made by Paul and the post-ressurection Jesus, in what us non-Christians tend to think of as the part of the bible written after dropping the brown acid, but for the Christians the command is legit.  They're actually told _not_ to harm those that sin, though, just that gay men at least are going to hell to burn forever.  Which isn't pleasant, but at least isn't a call to violence, so there's that.

If you keep the doctrine of fullfillment or whatever in mind and remember the influence of Calvinism and the dominionist movement on US protestant thought, a lot of the behavior of the churches makes a lot more sense.  Don't get me wrong, it's still stupid, but you'll find yourself less flabbergasted by the randomness of who they decided to target this week and be more of the "eh, that's dumb, but I guess I get it" type.


You seem like an intelligent and well reasoned person, why are you here?
 
2013-08-08 12:46:17 PM  

DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: He couldn't come up with even one white guy or a woman to put on the list.


Jesus was white.

/ runs away
 
2013-08-08 12:49:26 PM  

SovietCanuckistan: There was no APPLE in the story of Adam and Eve. TOTES CRAY


The story of Adam & Eve also appears AFTER God populates the earth. There's a school of thought that believes Augustine of Hippo had it added to the Bible around 400 AD/
 
2013-08-08 12:49:52 PM  
6. They don't understand that the Bible is the most successful fantasy novel ever.
 
2013-08-08 12:50:03 PM  

Crewmannumber6: Boyd Crowder, please report to the Fark Politics tab.



<threadjack>

What is the deal with that show?  Why do people rave about it?  Me and the Bafflerette have watched almost through season 4 now based on frien'ds recommendations and it seems like a just another CBS-style prime time crime procedural that gets to say dirty words.  It has some of the most convoluted plotting and lazy scripts on tv.  No real character development either aside from the Boyd side of the house.  I guess people just like watching Raylan chew up scenery and squint alot while learning nothing about his co-workers, or what the rest of the small Marshall office does.

Season 4 is off the rails crazy convoluted.  Only four episodes left, I've read al the episode summaries online up to what I've watched and the 'big plot arc' seems freakishly convoluted and not rational.  Just a series of event A, then event B, then event C.

</threadjack>
 
2013-08-08 12:50:46 PM  
Out of boredom, and not being a fundamentalist.. or really a Christian, let me retort one that's often parroted:

One of the most humorous aspects of modern-day, far-right Christianity is its reverence of capitalism. in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus tells the rich man, "go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."

Giving to charity and having your money taken and spent by government bureaucracies are two different things.  Christians aren't anti-charity, they're anti-government hand outs.  Different things
 
2013-08-08 12:50:49 PM  

Crewmannumber6: Jim_Callahan: Karac: Fundamentalists expect me to believe that gays should be stoned because of one single sentence written 3000 years ago and translated about a dozen times - when the same book has trouble consistently counting past 9?

Strictly speaking, in US protestant theology:

1. Leviticus (where most of the 'stoning' bits are) is part of the fulfilled law, and non-Jewish Christians aren't required to obey it because it's part of the pact with the tribe of Israel specifically rather than the general covenant between Jesus and the Church.  Technically the same can be said of the ten commandments, save that they're mostly reaffirmed in the new testament.

2. Similarly, hatred of homosexual acts is not based on the Leviticus shiat strictly speaking, but New Testament statements made by Paul and the post-ressurection Jesus, in what us non-Christians tend to think of as the part of the bible written after dropping the brown acid, but for the Christians the command is legit.  They're actually told _not_ to harm those that sin, though, just that gay men at least are going to hell to burn forever.  Which isn't pleasant, but at least isn't a call to violence, so there's that.

If you keep the doctrine of fullfillment or whatever in mind and remember the influence of Calvinism and the dominionist movement on US protestant thought, a lot of the behavior of the churches makes a lot more sense.  Don't get me wrong, it's still stupid, but you'll find yourself less flabbergasted by the randomness of who they decided to target this week and be more of the "eh, that's dumb, but I guess I get it" type.

You seem like an intelligent and well reasoned person, why are you here?


It's funny cuz it's true.

/oh politics tab, you so silly
 
2013-08-08 12:51:09 PM  
No mention of the deal that environmentalism and global warming are sinful because da Lord gave Man the Earth to use as we please and Man cannot break the Earth and if the Earth is gone....ummmmmmmm....the Lord will take care of us?
 
2013-08-08 12:52:01 PM  
Matthew 10:7-8: And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

I interpret this as meaning if you're going to preach, don't ask to get paid.
 
2013-08-08 12:52:14 PM  
How do you not misinterpret something that was passed down through oral tradition, transcribed and translated through multiple languages? Something of which the oldest known copies are at least a hundred years younger than the events that they describe?

The record is far too damaged and unreliable. Anyone saying that they know the original message of these stories is farking fooling themselves.
 
2013-08-08 12:52:41 PM  

MugzyBrown: Out of boredom, and not being a fundamentalist.. or really a Christian, let me retort one that's often parroted:

One of the most humorous aspects of modern-day, far-right Christianity is its reverence of capitalism. in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus tells the rich man, "go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."

Giving to charity and having your money taken and spent by government bureaucracies are two different things.  Christians aren't anti-charity, they're anti-government hand outs.  Different things


Yes, how dare the government make sure everyone has at least a bare minimum of food and other needs. How very un-Christian of them.

/wait, what?
 
2013-08-08 12:53:46 PM  

t3knomanser: To be fair, this article is also cherry-picking and decontextualizing Bible verses, just like the Fundamentalists do. The reality is that the Bible is a large document, rife with contradictions, metaphor, poetry, mythology, law, and history. Any large work, of that kind of complexity, compiled over that long a history, re-interpreted and re-envisioned with each new generation, becomes a mirror. The only thing you see in the Bible is what you put there. The Bible  always supports the beliefs of the person using it.


Sure, every believer has to pick and choose or they'll pretty much be Osama Bin Laden (that said, they'd have to do a lot less cherry picking if they would concentrate on the new testament and ditch the very different old testament). But there's nothing wrong with pointing out that these supposed followers of Christ are only cherry picking the parts which tell them to be an asshole, ignoring the parts which tell them not to be an asshole and blatantly misinterpreting or twisting even the parts which tell them to be good in order to justify asshole behavior.
 
2013-08-08 12:54:16 PM  
And then there are the passages that you just have to read and say "Uh, OK."

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
2013-08-08 12:54:22 PM  

Felgraf: But the moneychangers in the temple? The folks using a holy site to enrich themselves and line their own coffers? Holy shiat, does he get ripsnortingly pissed..


I don't know that I'd read to much into that, he also went into a random incoherent rage at a fig tree once for not bearing fruit out of season, there was a bit with some pigs where he got pretty nasty, and a lot of his answers to the pharisees were as rudely or incitingly worded as possible while carefully not quite rising to the bait.

Probably the dude was just intentionally written as a moody bastard whose anger wasn't entirely under control.  It was sort of obligatory for demigods in contemporary mythology.

You do bring up a broader point about Christianity in general though, that goes beyond the more limited US version we're talking about: Christianity is a non-ascetic religion whose primary figure was an ascetic, with all the random hatred of people that have the temerity to work for a living or provide for their future that that implies meshing very oddly with the fact that the roots of the religion lie almost entirely within the equivalent of the blue-collar laborers.

This is one of the big sources of trouble, I think.  Not the prosperity gospel all the time, necessarily, but the difficulty of reconciling a faith built on people being productive with a primary figure who never contributed a thing to society in his life, very intentionally.  In retrospect, not really surprising that trying to work that one out has spawned a couple genocides here and there.
 
2013-08-08 12:57:08 PM  

Ennuipoet: Let's be fair, Fundies do not misinterpret the Bible, that would imply the actually READ the book.


Why bother reading when you can just show up at church, hungover on Sunday morning and have someone tell you what to think?
 
2013-08-08 12:57:11 PM  

Ennuipoet: Let's be fair, Fundies do not misinterpret the Bible, that would imply the actually READ the book.


This too. I have met soooo many evangelical Christians and almost none of them have ever bothered to read the whole bible they claim to revere. Then they get all confused when I explain to them that I, an atheist, have. Every single one assumes I must not have read it because I don't believe. Then I quote a few bible verses.
 
2013-08-08 12:57:44 PM  

grumpfuff: Yes, how dare the government make sure everyone has at least a bare minimum of food and other needs. How very un-Christian of them.

/wait, what?


Ya know you don't need a massive federal government  to "make sure everyone has at leasta bare minimum of food and other needs. "  In fact, you don't need a government at all to do that.

And do you really see the programs currently offering the "bare minimum" ?
 
2013-08-08 12:58:13 PM  
Book of Revelations is not only misunderstood by the fundies, but it is like erection-producing end-of-the-Earth porn. These guys get a hard-on that the world will burn or wage global nuclear war. Let that soak in for a minute. They get on their farking knees and pray, Come soon' to a gun-loving 'God' that hates poor people and apparently hates taking care of the sick and elderly. Can't make the shiat up.
 
2013-08-08 12:58:15 PM  
Old Testament: The Silmarillion
The Gospels: The Lord of the Rings
The Acts of the Apostles: Unfinished Tales
The Pauline Epistles: The 12 volumes of "The History of Middle Earth"

Papal encyclicals and other official church publications: The Complete Guide to Middle Earth, The Atlas of Middle Earth, The Encyclopedia of Arda, and other authoritative derivative works

The Prosperity Gospel and modern Ayn Randian Christianity:

media.tumblr.com
 
2013-08-08 01:00:10 PM  

MugzyBrown: grumpfuff: Yes, how dare the government make sure everyone has at least a bare minimum of food and other needs. How very un-Christian of them.

/wait, what?

Ya know you don't need a massive federal government  to "make sure everyone has at leasta bare minimum of food and other needs. "  In fact, you don't need a government at all to do that.

And do you really see the programs currently offering the "bare minimum" ?



Hey now. We're mocking Christians. Let's not turn this into a real conversation.
 
2013-08-08 01:00:21 PM  

Crewmannumber6: You seem like an intelligent and well reasoned person, why are you here?


Eh, I'm usually more bull-headed and use the tab to vent suppressed frustration like everyone else, amateur theology is just one of my real-life hobbies (like many atheists, I got there kind of the long way) so I sometimes forget to imply that you're all losers when discussing it and write closer to the way I talk in RL to students or colleagues instead.

I'm sure I'll be back to calling you all dicks in the next gun thread or whatever.
 
2013-08-08 01:05:14 PM  
Noah was originally instructed to get 7 male and female 'clean' animals and 2 male and female 'unclean' animals. TOTES CRAY.
 
2013-08-08 01:05:16 PM  
Basing any form of rational morality On a book written thousands of years ago, By slaveowning misogynistic goatherder's with an ax to grind, is no way to go through life son.
 
2013-08-08 01:09:07 PM  
Individuals giving to other individuals is good. Individuals make up people. Government is by and of the people. Government giving to (and taking from) people is bad.

There is a breakdown in logic in that sequence of sentences somewhere, I just can't figure out where.
I'd really like to hear the argument against the government, representing us, doing jobs it can do more efficiently than each of us individually. The only reason I can think of is that some don't think the government is not representative enough of "us" (especially when the head of government has a different skin color than "us").

Makes you wonder what the bible has to say about representative democracy.
 
2013-08-08 01:12:41 PM  
Leviticus 20:13:  "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable..."

Has anyone pointed out to fundamentalists that this clearly applies to neither women nor gay men who bottom?  I'd love to hear what they have to say when they learn that tidbit.
 
2013-08-08 01:13:21 PM  
While it is clear that fundies are wrong about the Bible supporting capitalism -- indeed the Bible is clearly hostile to anything like it in both old and new testaments, the fundies are right about the Bible being hostile to homosexuals.

The article mentions some of Paul's statements that what we might call pro-woman.  Oddly enough this is true.   "Paul's" more anti-woman statements were not written by him.   That that does not mean those statements are not in the Bible.  And of course a fundy can't admit someone created scripture so that women would be required to stay silent in church, etc.  This means that fundies must somehow rationalize the same person singling out woman preachers for praise and saying that women should not preach assuming they read enough to notice the contradiction in the first place.

The Bible is a mix of moral stuff mixed with bigoted stuff.
 
2013-08-08 01:16:05 PM  
hinten: Individuals giving to other individuals is good. Individuals make up people. Government is by and of the people. Government giving to (and taking from) people is bad.


One of these things is not like the other.
 
2013-08-08 01:18:41 PM  
I would rather follow the Narnia books, then the bible.

Aslan is my favorite Christ figure. I actually cried when Aslan went to the white witch and laid down on the stone table to save Edmund.

Not so much with Christ on the cross.
 
2013-08-08 01:21:18 PM  
Either this is satire or the author knows very little about the vast majority of Christians and has placed the exceptions as the rule.
 
2013-08-08 01:22:18 PM  

Tyee: Either this is satire or the author knows very little about the vast majority of Christians and has placed the exceptions as the rule.


Fundamentalists are not the vast majority of Christians.
 
2013-08-08 01:23:05 PM  

gnosis301: Tyee: Either this is satire or the author knows very little about the vast majority of Christians and has placed the exceptions as the rule.

Fundamentalists are not the vast majority of Christians.


But they are the loudest and most visible segment.
 
2013-08-08 01:25:17 PM  

meat0918: But they are the loudest and most visible segment.


Boy, are they.
 
2013-08-08 01:25:36 PM  

MugzyBrown: Giving to charity and having your money taken and spent by government bureaucracies are two different things. Christians aren't anti-charity, they're anti-government hand outs. Different things


After the Industrial Revolution the population got too big for retail-level charity. The evolution of the Corn Laws in the UK basically traces how badly parish-level giving was at feeding the needy populace.
 
2013-08-08 01:26:03 PM  
Satire.
 
2013-08-08 01:26:47 PM  

MugzyBrown: hinten: Individuals giving to other individuals is good. Individuals make up people. Government is by and of the people. Government giving to (and taking from) people is bad.


One of these things is not like the other.


Are you going to show how that system works without the taking part, or were you just spontaneously bolding three words and showing you can differentiate them?
 
2013-08-08 01:27:38 PM  

MugzyBrown: In fact, you don't need a government at all to do that.


What, exactly, is the Roman Catholic Church (or the Presbyterian, or the Episcopalian) but a government wrapped in a religious robe? Why is a tithe okay but a tax is theft?
 
2013-08-08 01:31:56 PM  

theorellior: MugzyBrown: In fact, you don't need a government at all to do that.

What, exactly, is the Roman Catholic Church (or the Presbyterian, or the Episcopalian) but a government wrapped in a religious robe? Why is a required tithe okay but a tax is theft?


FTFY.
 
2013-08-08 01:31:58 PM  
FTFA:

Why Fundamentalists Hate This Verse:

Because fundamentalists are xenophobic: religious fundamentalism is a reaction to the multiculturalism of liberal democracy. Rather than seek a "brotherhood of man," religious fundamentalism longs for a tribal community, without the necessary friction from those with foreign beliefs, cultures and customs
.

My thought was, they hate that verse because John Lennon used it in his song Imagine.

It's been cracking me up the past few years the hate I've seen for Lennon by hardcore Christians (seen on Facebook and the like).  What is it with that?  Man, they hate that guy!  They sure like their daemons those Christians.

Just an example of how they have to have a point of vilification, I guess.

//yeah I know it goes back almost 50 years to the "Bigger than Jesus" thing
//way off topic
 
2013-08-08 01:34:41 PM  

quiotu: Are you going to show how that system works without the taking part, or were you just spontaneously bolding three words and showing you can differentiate them?


I'm sorry you can't follow a conversation, but you shouldn't get angry about it.

The article talked how Christians should embrace charity and used that to defend federal assistance programs.  I discussed how Christians do embrace charity and then showed the difference between charity (giving) and taxation to fund government assistance programs (taking).

Thus, people are for giving to charities of their choosing, they are against having money taken from them to go to a charity they didn't not choose.

theorellior: Why is a tithe okay but a tax is theft?


If I put $10 into the church basket, can I have the priest arrested for theft?

If somebody removes $10 from my wallet against my will, can I have this person arrested for theft (robbery)?
 
2013-08-08 01:36:17 PM  

grumpfuff: Why is a required tithe okay but a tax is theft?

FTFY.


Ok I will adjust my example

If I leave the church or do not tithe, can the priest put me in jail or sell my possessions?

If I do not pay my taxes, can the government put me in jail or sell my possessions?
 
2013-08-08 01:43:55 PM  
Oblig President Bartlett:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSXJzybEeJM
 
2013-08-08 01:44:05 PM  

MugzyBrown: If I leave the church or do not tithe, can the priest put me in jail or sell my possessions?


The Holy Spirit could kill you and your wife.
 
2013-08-08 01:46:16 PM  

gnosis301: The Holy Spirit could kill you and your wife.


The Holy Spirit has a special set of skills...
 
2013-08-08 01:46:30 PM  

MugzyBrown: grumpfuff: Why is a required tithe okay but a tax is theft?

FTFY.

Ok I will adjust my example

If I leave the church or do not tithe, can the priest put me in jail or sell my possessions?

If I do not pay my taxes, can the government put me in jail or sell my possessions?


If the church had it's way...

It still doesn't explain how one is fundamentally different than the other. Both are a person in authority requiring you to give them some of their money. Just because one is (no longer) enforceable, doesn't mean they're fundamentally different.
 
2013-08-08 01:48:53 PM  
Dahnkster:
Book of Revelations is not only misunderstood by the fundies, but it is like erection-producing end-of-the-Earth porn. These guys get a hard-on that the world will burn or wage global nuclear war. Let that soak in for a minute. They get on their farking knees and pray, Come soon' to a gun-loving 'God' that hates poor people and apparently hates taking care of the sick and elderly. Can't make the shiat up.

They're like the internet nerds who fantasize about the zombie apocalypse, picturing themselves as shotgun-toting corpse killers and not the guy who trips over his shoelaces and gets eaten on day 1.  Your average Evangelical would not be lifted bodily to heaven, they'd be more likely to be first in line behind a handsome and charismatic Antichrist.
 
2013-08-08 01:49:53 PM  

grumpfuff: Just because one is (no longer) not enforceable, doesn't mean they're fundamentally different.


Actually it exactly means they are fundamentally different, because they are totally different.  They are in fact opposite they're so different.
 
2013-08-08 01:51:22 PM  

MugzyBrown: If I leave the church or do not tithe, can the priest put me in jail or sell my possessions?

If I do not pay my taxes, can the government put me in jail or sell my possessions?


Oh, so you're one of those people. Back in the day, sure the Church would. If you didn't tithe, you were excommunicated and run out of town. Like it or not, someone's gotta do the big projects like roads and public buildings, and whether you call it a toll, a tithe or a tax, someone's going to take your money, and enforce that taking if you try to skip out.
 
2013-08-08 01:52:21 PM  

MugzyBrown: Actually it exactly means they are fundamentally different, because they are totally different. They are in fact opposite they're so different.


No they're not. You're just trying to get out of paying taxes because you're a dumbshiat libertarian.
 
2013-08-08 01:53:08 PM  

MugzyBrown: grumpfuff: Just because one is (no longer) not enforceable, doesn't mean they're fundamentally different.

Actually it exactly means they are fundamentally different, because they are totally different.  They are in fact opposite they're so different.


Never heard of the Dark Ages, huh?


theorellior: Oh, so you're one of those people. Back in the day, sure the Church would. If you didn't tithe, you were excommunicated and run out of town. Like it or not, someone's gotta do the big projects like roads and public buildings, and whether you call it a toll, a tithe or a tax, someone's going to take your money, and enforce that taking if you try to skip out.


Said it for me. Thanks for that. o/
 
2013-08-08 01:55:19 PM  

theorellior: Oh, so you're one of those people. Back in the day, sure the Church would. If you didn't tithe, you were excommunicated and run out of town. Like it or not, someone's gotta do the big projects like roads and public buildings, and whether you call it a toll, a tithe or a tax, someone's going to take your money, and enforce that taking if you try to skip out.


Not only does this discussion not matter because you're talking about vague, possible realities of the world 300+ years ago, but roads are not charity.

And to top it off, a tithe, tax, and toll are all very different things.

We've already distinguished the difference between a tithe and a tax (voluntary vs involuntary).  A toll is a 'tax', but is at least associated with a fee-for-service type of arrangement.

Like a toll road, I don't have to use the toll road.
 
2013-08-08 01:57:15 PM  

theorellior: No they're not. You're just trying to get out of paying taxes because you're a dumbshiat libertarian.


You can scream at the monitor all you want, but let me know when the catholic church is going to start deducting money from my check or when they are going to start arresting people for tithe evasion.
 
2013-08-08 01:57:26 PM  

MugzyBrown: theorellior: Oh, so you're one of those people. Back in the day, sure the Church would. If you didn't tithe, you were excommunicated and run out of town. Like it or not, someone's gotta do the big projects like roads and public buildings, and whether you call it a toll, a tithe or a tax, someone's going to take your money, and enforce that taking if you try to skip out.

Not only does this discussion not matter because you're talking about vague, possible realities of the world 300+ years ago, but roads are not charity.

And to top it off, a tithe, tax, and toll are all very different things.

We've already distinguished the difference between a tithe and a tax (voluntary vs involuntary).  A toll is a 'tax', but is at least associated with a fee-for-service type of arrangement.

Like a toll road, I don't have to use the toll road.


Wrong. By dogma of the Church(the group that makes the rules of that particular community), a tithe is involuntary. Just because they don't have the legal authority to enforce it anymore, doesn't change the fact that it's involuntary from the perspective of the community itself.

Though I'd probably agree on the tax/toll being different party.
 
2013-08-08 01:58:18 PM  
I often wonder if Jesus took the OT literally, and why or why not?
Seems to me he would of done us all a favour if he could have just cleared that up.

Discuss.
 
2013-08-08 02:00:40 PM  

grumpfuff: Wrong. By dogma of the Church(the group that makes the rules of that particular community), a tithe is involuntary. Just because they don't have the legal authority to enforce it anymore, doesn't change the fact that it's involuntary from the perspective of the community itself.


Ya know what's weird... I'm technically catholic.  I've been baptised catholic, I've been married in a catholic church, and my son was baptised catholic.

The only money of mine that has gone to the catholic church has been the fee for the priest, and small donation, for the wedding, and the same when I had my son baptised.

I must have fallen through the cracks of the bureaucracy.  I'm sure the next time I step into a church, I'll have my pockets pulled inside out.
 
2013-08-08 02:01:03 PM  

MugzyBrown: grumpfuff: Just because one is (no longer) not enforceable, doesn't mean they're fundamentally different.

Actually it exactly means they are fundamentally different, because they are totally different.  They are in fact opposite they're so different.


I like how the difference between the two is the church allows you to be greedy, which is rather ironic. People like choice in this matter because it assumes you're a good person who would give anyway.
Considering which is doing a better job to tackle major social issues, church or government, I think we can safely assume that government does it better because people are by and large douchebags if given a choice. The fear of God doesn't sway people like it used to anymore because civilization's mostly grown past it, accept it.
 
2013-08-08 02:01:20 PM  

gnosis301: Tyee: Either this is satire or the author knows very little about the vast majority of Christians and has placed the exceptions as the rule.

Fundamentalists are not the vast majority of Christians.


But they desperately want us to think they are, since they are so very foully oppressed.

Seriously!! The ObaMarxoHippies are, like, going out and burning hundreds and hundreds of fundies alive every single day in America. And shooting them and gassing them and hanging them off streetlights and crucifying them on telephone poles and such as.

Thus, they must get in the media and make constant LOUDNOISE.

PS your dum Tyee.
/I think I got lost in there.
 
2013-08-08 02:02:28 PM  

MugzyBrown: We've already distinguished the difference between a tithe and a tax (voluntary vs involuntary).


That makes no sense. A tax is just as "voluntary" as a tithe, or Biblical duties towards charity. You can refuse to do it; you just have to be prepared for the consequences.
 
2013-08-08 02:02:37 PM  

MugzyBrown: grumpfuff: Wrong. By dogma of the Church(the group that makes the rules of that particular community), a tithe is involuntary. Just because they don't have the legal authority to enforce it anymore, doesn't change the fact that it's involuntary from the perspective of the community itself.

Ya know what's weird... I'm technically catholic.  I've been baptised catholic, I've been married in a catholic church, and my son was baptised catholic.

The only money of mine that has gone to the catholic church has been the fee for the priest, and small donation, for the wedding, and the same when I had my son baptised.

I must have fallen through the cracks of the bureaucracy.  I'm sure the next time I step into a church, I'll have my pockets pulled inside out.


So hey then, all those other things that are required, like fasting on holy days and following the 10 Commandments, are actually just suggestions that have no actual relevance or authority?
 
2013-08-08 02:03:37 PM  

MugzyBrown: Not only does this discussion not matter because you're talking about vague, possible realities of the world 300+ years ago, but roads are not charity.


No, this discussion does not matter because you've staked out a claim that tithes are voluntary and taxes are not, yet there are centuries of church history that put paid to your claim. Just because you feel better handing over your money to a priest rather than a bureaucrat in order to make the trains run on time and the poor be fed, does not make it any different. So you go on believing that God loves you more because you pay for your spiritual salvation, and that the taxman is hiding just around your door with a gun to rape you of your hard-earned cash. Just do it elsewhere.
 
2013-08-08 02:04:55 PM  

grumpfuff: So hey then, all those other things that are required, like fasting on holy days and following the 10 Commandments, are actually just suggestions that have no actual relevance or authority?


This is the very definition of a cafeteria Christian.
 
2013-08-08 02:06:32 PM  

quiotu: I like how the difference between the two is the church allows you to be greedy, which is rather ironic. People like choice in this matter because it assumes you're a good person who would give anyway.
Considering which is doing a better job to tackle major social issues, church or government, I think we can safely assume that government does it better because people are by and large douchebags if given a choice.


Your first point isn't about greed, it's about freedom.  Using poor comparison, the church doesn't "allow" me to be greedy, it "allows" me the freedom to give to the charity of my choosing, if I choose to or if I am able to, when and how often as I like.

Whereas the government forces me to give to the government, and then they get to choose what % of that is spent on charity, what is spent on war, what is spent on corruption, what is spent on waste.

Your second point is a false dichotomy.  It's not a case of the church vs the government 'doing it better' (though I don't remember the last time the church went to war and blew people up and tortured.  It's been quite a long time.  There are many charities, large and small, that could use some money.
 
2013-08-08 02:07:26 PM  
a sermon for the Republicans

"Here beginneth the Gospel according to the silver Marks. In those days the pope said to the Romans: When the Son of Man shall come to the throne of our majesty, first say to him: Friend, why comest thou? And if he continue to knock, giving you nothing, ye shall cast him into outer darkness. And it came to pass that a certain poor clerk came to the court of the lord pope and cried out, saying: Have mercy on me, ye gate-keepers of the pope, for the hand of poverty hath touched me. I am poor and hungry, I pray you to help my misery. Then were they wroth and said: Friend, thy poverty perish with thee; get thee behind me Satan, for thou knowest not the odor of money. Verily, verily, I say unto thee that thou shalt not enter into the joy of thy Lord until thou hast given thy last farthing.{625} "Then the poor man went away and sold his cloak and his coat and all that he had, and gave it to the cardinals and gate-keepers and chamberlains. But they said: What is this among so many? And they cast him beyond the gates, and he wept bitterly and could find nought to comfort him. Then came to the court a rich clerk, fat and broad and heavy, who in his wrath had slain a man. First he gave to the gate-keeper, then to the chamberlain, then to the cardinals; and they thought they were about to receive more. But the lord pope, hearing that the cardinals and servants had many gifts from the clerk, fell sick unto death. Then unto him the rich man sent an electuary of gold and silver, and straightway he was cured. Then the lord pope called unto him the cardinals and servants, and said unto them: Brethren, take heed that no one seduce you with empty words. I set you an example; even as I take, so shall ye take."
==========
 approx 1510, a Franciscan was complaining about the rampant Simone in the Church.
 
2013-08-08 02:09:42 PM  

theorellior: grumpfuff: So hey then, all those other things that are required, like fasting on holy days and following the 10 Commandments, are actually just suggestions that have no actual relevance or authority?

This is the very definition of a cafeteria Christian.


Or idiot. Interchangeable I guess.
 
2013-08-08 02:17:54 PM  

MugzyBrown: quiotu: I like how the difference between the two is the church allows you to be greedy, which is rather ironic. People like choice in this matter because it assumes you're a good person who would give anyway.
Considering which is doing a better job to tackle major social issues, church or government, I think we can safely assume that government does it better because people are by and large douchebags if given a choice.

Your first point isn't about greed, it's about freedom.  Using poor comparison, the church doesn't "allow" me to be greedy, it "allows" me the freedom to give to the charity of my choosing, if I choose to or if I am able to, when and how often as I like.

Whereas the government forces me to give to the government, and then they get to choose what % of that is spent on charity, what is spent on war, what is spent on corruption, what is spent on waste.

Your second point is a false dichotomy.  It's not a case of the church vs the government 'doing it better' (though I don't remember the last time the church went to war and blew people up and tortured.  It's been quite a long time.  There are many charities, large and small, that could use some money.


Yet I'm pretty sure you give more money to the government than you give to charity.  If you had the choice to give to the government, would you give as much?  Would you give at all?  You already admitted giving virtually NO money to your church, so I know you're an inherently greedy asshat anyway.

Many assume the church and the charity somehow use that money better than the government, when there's been plenty of charity scams out there to prove them wrong.  Fraud and embezzlement happen all the time, and there's no guarantee your money's doing better going to charity than to the government.

Again, what you call freedom I call greed.  Programs to help the needy aren't free, and the government provides much more aid than any other charity organization because you HAVE to give, in many cases because you'll HAVE to take from the government just as much before you die.  You can spew 'it's not fair' at your monitor all you like, but the results speak for themselves.
 
2013-08-08 02:24:16 PM  

MugzyBrown: theorellior: No they're not. You're just trying to get out of paying taxes because you're a dumbshiat libertarian.

You can scream at the monitor all you want, but let me know when the catholic church is going to start deducting money from my check or when they are going to start arresting people for tithe evasion.


They'll do better than that.  They'll send you to hell.  For somebody that actually believes, that's scarier.
 
2013-08-08 02:27:50 PM  

MugzyBrown: Out of boredom, and not being a fundamentalist.. or really a Christian, let me retort one that's often parroted:

One of the most humorous aspects of modern-day, far-right Christianity is its reverence of capitalism. in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus tells the rich man, "go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."

Giving to charity and having your money taken and spent by government bureaucracies are two different things.  Christians aren't anti-charity, they're anti-government hand outs.  Different things


Maybe if Christians were truly as generous as their bible encouraged them to be, there wouldn't be a need for "government hand outs."
 
2013-08-08 02:28:10 PM  
The author of this article shows his/her ignoranceoof the bible as well. Any scholar will tell you that you can't take a sentence from a book out of context and gain any value from it.
 
2013-08-08 02:30:31 PM  

gnosis301: DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: He couldn't come up with even one white guy or a woman to put on the list.

Jesus was white.


And not on the list!   Racist misogynist list-maker is obviously racist and misogynist.

/wharrgrrrbbll
 
2013-08-08 02:34:33 PM  

gnosis301: MugzyBrown: If I leave the church or do not tithe, can the priest put me in jail or sell my possessions?

The Holy Spirit could kill you and your wife.


LOL.  I grew up in a fundamentalist Baptist church.

Every year, as the church asked its members to pledge their contributions, the sad cautionary tale of Ananias and Sapphira was trotted out.  For our own good, of course.
 
2013-08-08 02:42:46 PM  

MugzyBrown: Out of boredom, and not being a fundamentalist.. or really a Christian, let me retort one that's often parroted:

One of the most humorous aspects of modern-day, far-right Christianity is its reverence of capitalism. in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus tells the rich man, "go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."

Giving to charity and having your money taken and spent by government bureaucracies are two different things.  Christians aren't anti-charity, they're anti-government hand outs.  Different things


These are the same people that claim we are a "Christian Nation" and that our laws come from this book.  A logical extension of that would be a legal requirement to give to charity.  It's not a stretch at all.
 
2013-08-08 02:52:28 PM  

wildcardjack: [scienceblogs.com image 585x670]


RIP Peter Gabriel

RIP Phil Collins
 
2013-08-08 03:08:04 PM  
friday13: ...These are the same people that claim we are a "Christian Nation" and that our laws come from this book.  A logical extension of that would be a legal requirement to give to charity.  It's not a stretch at all.

And WE MUST STOP SHARIA LAW!   Imagine, law based on religion!

Ban abortions because it's killing babies, and arrest da gays because the Lord calls them an abomination and you better have the Ten Commandments posted in court and in city hall.
 
2013-08-08 03:18:05 PM  

netringer: friday13: ...These are the same people that claim we are a "Christian Nation" and that our laws come from this book.  A logical extension of that would be a legal requirement to give to charity.  It's not a stretch at all.

And WE MUST STOP SHARIA LAW!   Imagine, law based on religion!

Ban abortions because it's killing babies, and arrest da gays because the Lord calls them an abomination and you better have the Ten Commandments posted in court and in city hall.


I can't buy booze on Sunday. Or test drive a car. Dumb.
 
2013-08-08 03:44:06 PM  

MugzyBrown: hinten: Individuals giving to other individuals is good. Individuals make up people. Government is by and of the people. Government giving to (and taking from) people is bad.


One of these things is not like the other.



When you give you take it out of your own pocket. The bible or Atlas Shrugged really did a number on you.
 
2013-08-08 03:49:31 PM  

MugzyBrown: Whereas the government forces me to give to the government, and then they get to choose what % of that is spent on charity, what is spent on war, what is spent on corruption, what is spent on waste.


That ignorant vision of government is a moral cop-out to justify greedy douchbaggery.

You pay the church nothing, but get nothing anyway.  Big deal.
You pay society nothing, but benefit from a safe and progressive society you aren't supporting.  Douchbaggery.
 
2013-08-08 04:16:01 PM  

scottydoesntknow: Only 5?


Give them time, they're still working on the first aliyah of parsha bereshiat.
 
2013-08-08 06:18:25 PM  
Area Man Passionate Defender of what he Imagines the Bible to be?

/Tempted to actually write that.
 
2013-08-08 06:41:21 PM  
I realize it's completely silly to make a serious point in a Fark thread, but as an ex-fundamentalist who's now an atheist...

Christian fundamentalism is  not about strict adherence to the Bible, because the first thing any fundie will tell you is that the Old Testament doesn't apply to modern day Christians because Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the Jewish law and freed mankind from it. And yet, at the same time, that same fundamentalist will argue that the laws that aren't specifically for the Israelites tell us how God would live if he were a man, and therefore, we need to adhere to as many of them as we can. Hence, the cherry-picking of verses to support literal readings of Genesis and conservative beliefs (even if some of that cherry-picking contradicts the teachings of Christ or his disciples).

If that sort of thinking doesn't make sense to you, then congratulations -- you aren't cut out to be a fundamentalist, because as much as these folks portray themselves as Biblical literalists, they do all sorts of mental gymnastics to claim that the Bible is 100% literally true and inerrant AND consistent with their beliefs.

For me, it all began to fall apart when I noticed that the Jewish people, who have 2/3 of the same book that Christians do, practice their religion very differently from Christians. I started looking into why those differences exist (or why, for example, Christianity has a devil figure and Judaism does not) and explored even further into the religion of ancient Egyptians and Babylonians that Judaism derives from. A few years later, I found myself in the position of disbelief of all of it -- and I haven't turned back since.

But that sort of inquisitive nature isn't typical of fundamentalists. They see the world as being very black and white, and they anchor those beliefs to their understanding of the Bible. If you try to show them what the Bible really says, they can say that the devil is working through you to try to confuse them and distort God's word. If you try to point out the many, many problems with the historicity of the Bible, they argue that the devil used heathen cultures to give us false records to cast doubt. If you point out that Jesus Christ himself is a figure who seems to have picked up some mythology along the way (particularly in the book of Matthew), they tell you that you don't have enough faith.

The only way to really understand a fundamentalist is to accept that they believe what they believe because they believe it, and they seek out like-minded people to be their echo chamber. If you want to help them out of this pattern of thinking, you have to first recognize that faith always trumps reason in their minds and that the devil is a real force trying to tear them away from their narrow view of God. And then you have to challenge them to think and pray about the things they aren't so sure about and to seek God's counsel instead of that of their peers.

That might sound counter-intuitive, but that's often the path that leads them to realize that God might be bigger than they previously thought. That path led me to eventually realize that there were many conflicting views of God, and it made me easier to recognize that maybe, just maybe, there was no God at all.
 
2013-08-08 08:32:47 PM  

cranked: MugzyBrown: Whereas the government forces me to give to the government, and then they get to choose what % of that is spent on charity, what is spent on war, what is spent on corruption, what is spent on waste.

That ignorant vision of government is a moral cop-out to justify greedy douchbaggery.

You pay the church nothing, but get nothing anyway.  Big deal.
You pay society nothing, but benefit from a safe and progressive society you aren't supporting.  Douchbaggery.


Does that dollar bill or coin in your pocket have your name or the name "United States of America" printed on it?

Mark 12:17

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.


"Your" money according to Jesus, never belonged to you in the first place, it belongs to the government. Stop whining about the government that comprises of officials elected by the people having laws to take care of the people. What about those that don't belong to a Christian group? Should they go without because they aren't able to gain charity? Charity is not an efficient means of making sure people are fed.
 
2013-08-08 08:42:50 PM  

Anti_illuminati: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Ennuipoet: Let's be fair, Fundies do not misinterpret the Bible, that would imply the actually READ the book.

Read, yes.

Understand, no.

I imagine fundies comprehending the Bible is like me comprehending Finnegan's Wake.

/i'll never finish understand that book


I'm an English teacher who's attempting to get a masters in literature and who has a special enjoyment of Celtic stories and I don't get it at all.
 
2013-08-08 09:28:35 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: scottydoesntknow: Only 5?

Give them time, they're still working on the first aliyah of parsha bereshiat.


Seriously Fark? Filterpwning the transliterated Hebrew name of the first book of the Torah, בראשית, is taking it one step too far.
 
2013-08-08 09:48:11 PM  
I've been saying this since the evening of 9/11/01:  Fundamentalism is its own religion, and the religion that it claims at any given point is just a veneer.  Fundamentalist atheists have been as awful as Fundamentalist christians have been as awful as Fundamentalist buddhists have been as awful as Fundamentalist muslims.  It's the real enemy culture.
 
2013-08-08 11:30:03 PM  

netringer: friday13: ...These are the same people that claim we are a "Christian Nation" and that our laws come from this book.  A logical extension of that would be a legal requirement to give to charity.  It's not a stretch at all.

And WE MUST STOP SHARIA LAW!   Imagine, law based on religion!

Ban abortions because it's killing babies, and arrest da gays because the Lord calls them an abomination and you better have the Ten Commandments posted in court and in city hall.


Doesn't Romans 2 say that God allows and even causes homosexuality?
 
2013-08-09 04:53:30 AM  
I got told a longass time ago that the sailors that got killed on the USS Stark died because of MY sins.

I had thought they were already FULLY PAID FOR, FOR ALL TIME by whatshisface on the wooden thingy with the nails. Guess all that "all sins are wiped away by the blood of jeezuss" stuff was just me misinterpreting something, huh?

I've said this before elsewhere on Fark, but I also got told "the Founding Fathers were divinely inspired to write the Constitution" but six months later they're ZOMG Freemason servants of Satan!!1!

I finally got so pissed that I ended up telling the One God to go f*ck Itself for deliberately providing me a teacher who taught unscriptural crazymaking that blatantly.
 
2013-08-09 05:48:27 AM  

madgordy: a sermon for the Republicans

"Here beginneth the Gospel according to the silver Marks. In those days the pope said to the Romans: When the Son of Man shall come to the throne of our majesty, first say to him: Friend, why comest thou? And if he continue to knock, giving you nothing, ye shall cast him into outer darkness. And it came to pass that a certain poor clerk came to the court of the lord pope and cried out, saying: Have mercy on me, ye gate-keepers of the pope, for the hand of poverty hath touched me. I am poor and hungry, I pray you to help my misery. Then were they wroth and said: Friend, thy poverty perish with thee; get thee behind me Satan, for thou knowest not the odor of money. Verily, verily, I say unto thee that thou shalt not enter into the joy of thy Lord until thou hast given thy last farthing.{625} "Then the poor man went away and sold his cloak and his coat and all that he had, and gave it to the cardinals and gate-keepers and chamberlains. But they said: What is this among so many? And they cast him beyond the gates, and he wept bitterly and could find nought to comfort him. Then came to the court a rich clerk, fat and broad and heavy, who in his wrath had slain a man. First he gave to the gate-keeper, then to the chamberlain, then to the cardinals; and they thought they were about to receive more. But the lord pope, hearing that the cardinals and servants had many gifts from the clerk, fell sick unto death. Then unto him the rich man sent an electuary of gold and silver, and straightway he was cured. Then the lord pope called unto him the cardinals and servants, and said unto them: Brethren, take heed that no one seduce you with empty words. I set you an example; even as I take, so shall ye take."
==========
 approx 1510, a Franciscan was complaining about the rampant Simone in the Church.


i.imgur.com

RIP Rampant Simone
 
2013-08-09 03:24:59 PM  
What would be the clever new term for non-Christians telling Christians what their book says?  Godsplaining?
 
2013-08-09 04:14:21 PM  

JNowe: What would be the clever new term for non-Christians telling Christians what their book says?  Godsplaining?



Hmm.
Unrelated question: What's the term for when Christians using a crappy fifth-hand "translation" try to tell Jews what our book says?
חצפה ?

/Yes, that is the term.
 
2013-08-09 04:44:48 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: What's the term for when Christians using a crappy fifth-hand "translation" try to tell Jews what our book says?
חצפה ?


חֻצְפָּה
1. Defective spelling of חוצפה

(our book)
 
2013-08-09 05:02:58 PM  

HairBolus: demaL-demaL-yeH: What's the term for when Christians using a crappy fifth-hand "translation" try to tell Jews what our book says?
חצפה ?

חֻצְפָּה
1. Defective spelling of חוצפה
(our book)


Interesting. Care(1869) to go back in your time machine to make corrections?
 
2013-08-09 06:13:42 PM  
Six months, two months. Whatever.
 
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