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(The Atlantic)   Those sophisticated European countries with their excellent health-care plans come with the kind of abortion restrictions that would have leftists shredding their garments in rage were Rush Limbaugh to suggest them   (theatlantic.com) divider line 383
    More: Interesting, European countries, abortion law, health cares, abortion restrictions, abortions, Europe, Marie Stopes International, reproductive rights  
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2854 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Aug 2013 at 12:33 PM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-05 10:58:31 AM
And?
 
2013-08-05 10:59:54 AM
Countries with well-below-replacement birthrates and significant social safety nets to aid new mothers in raising productive, educated members of society have a different point of view on reproduction in general and abortion specifically than our country?

Huh.
 
2013-08-05 11:02:37 AM

factoryconnection: Countries with well-below-replacement birthrates and significant social safety nets to aid new mothers in raising productive, educated members of society have a different point of view on reproduction in general and abortion specifically than our country?

Huh.


Apparently, this is supposed to Mean Something™.
 
2013-08-05 11:07:27 AM
Waiting periods, decried by American pro-choicers as infantilizing and unreasonably burdensome, are common in Western Europe

You know what else is common in Europe?

Hospitals providing abortion services.

/shocking
 
2013-08-05 11:18:11 AM
So why are Europe's abortion laws not as libertine and laissez-faire as our stereotypes about those countries might suggest?

Mayhaps because your stereotypes are wrong?
 
2013-08-05 11:25:57 AM

Marcus Aurelius: Waiting periods, decried by American pro-choicers as infantilizing and unreasonably burdensome, are common in Western Europe

You know what else is common in Europe?

Hospitals providing abortion services.



And effective public transportation, for that matter.  Waiting periods may be "infantilizing" in any case, but they aren't necessarily "unreasonably burdensome" where it is relatively easy to find and access an abortion provider.
 
2013-08-05 11:33:42 AM
So judging on the early comments in this thread, this would be a good social compromise for America that reaches across the bipartisan divide?

Scale back abortion to 12 weeks with mandatory waiting peripds and counseling in exchange for single payer healthcare (which would ultimately result in greater postnatal support).

Just curious as to whether or not those of you with views at the more extreme ends of the spectrum would go for a compromise like this.
 
2013-08-05 11:40:13 AM

El_Perro: Marcus Aurelius: Waiting periods, decried by American pro-choicers as infantilizing and unreasonably burdensome, are common in Western Europe

You know what else is common in Europe?

Hospitals providing abortion services.


And effective public transportation, for that matter.  Waiting periods may be "infantilizing" in any case, but they aren't necessarily "unreasonably burdensome" where it is relatively easy to find and access an abortion provider.




This. The big problem with a lot of the anti-abolition laws we're seeing in places like Texas is that they are actually designed to make it highly difficult, if not impossible, for anyone to provide abortion services in the first place. Now, whether or not waiting periods are reasonable is another topic, but that's kind of cover for the real point of these laws.
 
2013-08-05 11:43:13 AM
The counseling they get in Europe is reality-based, not the scare tactics and lies the pro-lifers try to peddle. Also, sex-education is comprehensive and, again, reality based - they even talk about teh ghey in European sex-ed classes! Finally, contraception is freely available and their health insurance covers birth control.

If we could get reality-based counseling, good comprehensive sex-ed, and the same ubiquitous contraception, we could have abortion laws like theirs, too.
 
2013-08-05 11:43:55 AM

Elegy: Scale back abortion to 12 weeks with mandatory waiting peripds and counseling in exchange for single payer healthcare (which would ultimately result in greater postnatal support).


That would be a hell of a compromise, and the rarest kind on contentious issues: substantive.

The underlying assumption when introducing new "regulations" for abortions is that they can be structured to ban abortion, not improve outcomes.  When you have 5 abortion providers in a state, the waiting period means two trips, minimum, across the state for a lot of clients.  That's a financial non-starter in a country with just about zero regional transit systems.  If first-trimester abortions were treated as minor medical procedures that they are and providers weren't rare, then access would be high enough that earlier gestation-time restrictions would not be tantamount to an outright ban.
 
2013-08-05 11:46:27 AM

jake_lex: The big problem with a lot of the anti-abolition laws we're seeing in places like Texas



s13.postimg.org
 
2013-08-05 11:47:05 AM

jake_lex: The big problem with a lot of the anti-abolition gun laws we're seeing in places like Texas New York is that they are actually designed to make it highly difficult, if not impossible, for anyone to provide abortion services own a gun in the first place. Now, whether or not waiting periods are reasonable is another topic, but that's kind of cover for the real point of these laws.


Now, personally, I'm against any major restrictions for abortion or guns to adults, but it seems that if you're for one, you're against the other in most cases.  Having said that, I've yet to meet a person who was for both banning guns and abortion, but I have met a number of people who are like me, and think adults should have easy access to both.
 
2013-08-05 11:52:52 AM

Elegy: So judging on the early comments in this thread, this would be a good social compromise for America that reaches across the bipartisan divide?

Scale back abortion to 12 weeks with mandatory waiting peripds and counseling in exchange for single payer healthcare (which would ultimately result in greater postnatal support).

Just curious as to whether or not those of you with views at the more extreme ends of the spectrum would go for a compromise like this.


12 weeks is entirely too early. The mandatory waiting periods and counseling don't work when we've shut down most clinics that provide those services.

As far as getting on the same track as Europe, the anti-choice crowd has already more than farked us up.
 
2013-08-05 11:52:59 AM
Western Europe also has the lowest abortion rates in the world (about 12 per 1,000). Rates are much higher in the now more restrictive Eastern European countries at about 43 per 1,000, with a lot of those being unsafe procedures. Countries in Africa and Latin America with extremely restrictive abortion laws also tend have very high rates, with the percentage of unsafe procedures being in the high-90s in some places. It's almost as though the best way to actually reduce the number of abortions is to provide good sex ed and easily available contraception.
 
2013-08-05 12:03:34 PM

sigdiamond2000: factoryconnection: Countries with well-below-replacement birthrates and significant social safety nets to aid new mothers in raising productive, educated members of society have a different point of view on reproduction in general and abortion specifically than our country?

Huh.

Apparently, this is supposed to Mean Something™.


Actually, it does for some countries in Europe that have large number of Turkish and other Islamic "guest workers".
 
2013-08-05 12:17:48 PM
I tell you what: Let's get Germany's health care system, transportation system, universal education- including comprehensive sex education- and social services and then I'll be ok with a waiting period on a third trimester abortion.

I'm flexible.
 
2013-08-05 12:21:01 PM
We're going to be arguing abortion for the next 50 years, aren't we?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-05 12:34:47 PM
No, those are not all that stringent, although I don't know if anyone would call Belgium sophisticated.

I think much of the problem in the US is concern over the way in which they would be applied.  I don't think a counseling session in Germans would really be the same as a counseling session in South Carolina for instance.
 
2013-08-05 12:36:01 PM
 
2013-08-05 12:37:04 PM
So subby, what you're saying is that nobody agrees 100% on everything? Wow, thanks for that, I'll just put it in my notebook here next to my last observation...that water is wet.
 
2013-08-05 12:39:23 PM

factoryconnection: Countries with well-below-replacement birthrates and significant social safety nets to aid new mothers in raising productive, educated members of society have a different point of view on reproduction in general and abortion specifically than our country?

Huh.


You mean they're actually "pro-life", not just pro-fetus?
 
2013-08-05 12:41:00 PM
Does Europe have fundie nutcases picketing the places where abortions are performed?

Serious question.
 
2013-08-05 12:41:10 PM

Sybarite: Western Europe also has the lowest abortion rates in the world (about 12 per 1,000). Rates are much higher in the now more restrictive Eastern European countries at about 43 per 1,000, with a lot of those being unsafe procedures. Countries in Africa and Latin America with extremely restrictive abortion laws also tend have very high rates, with the percentage of unsafe procedures being in the high-90s in some places. It's almost as though the best way to actually reduce the number of abortions is to provide good sex ed and easily available contraception.


Look at you expecting our derptastic legislators to be reality-based and such as. Like they won't get caught sayof in the primaries if there's a breath of compromise in anything they say.
 
2013-08-05 12:42:20 PM

Elegy: So judging on the early comments in this thread, this would be a good social compromise for America that reaches across the bipartisan divide?

Scale back abortion to 12 weeks with mandatory waiting peripds and counseling in exchange for single payer healthcare (which would ultimately result in greater postnatal support).

Just curious as to whether or not those of you with views at the more extreme ends of the spectrum would go for a compromise like this.


Stop being racist!  Please ignore this or you're racist!  Glenn Beck killed someone in the 90s!  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
 
2013-08-05 12:42:36 PM

Elegy: So judging on the early comments in this thread, this would be a good social compromise for America that reaches across the bipartisan divide?

Scale back abortion to 12 weeks with mandatory waiting peripds and counseling in exchange for single payer healthcare (which would ultimately result in greater postnatal support).

Just curious as to whether or not those of you with views at the more extreme ends of the spectrum would go for a compromise like this.


I'm at the pretty far end of the anti-abortion spectrum, and i'd be fine with it.  And it should be pointed out, Abortion should always be legal in the case of a health threat to the life of the mother, regardless of length of the pregnancy.  I think single payer healthcare (in general) is it's own can of worms, but i would be perfectly fine with a single payer system for prenatal healthcare and pregnancy costs.
 
2013-08-05 12:42:58 PM
I would personally have very little problem with only first-trimester abortions being legal. But you cannot just say "let's ban all abortions after the first trimester" and ignore all of the other policies that interlock with such a ban. The people in America who would most support such a policy also want to shut down abortion providers entirely, prevent women from using reliable birth control, and stop pregnant women from getting prenatal care that would help ensure the birth of a healthy baby. I would never support a first-trimester abortion limitation without ensuring women who want abortions don't have to drive hundreds of miles to get them, can control their reproductive cycle with affordable birth control, and can take care of their babies' health both in utero and after birth.
 
2013-08-05 12:45:21 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Waiting periods, decried by American pro-choicers as infantilizing and unreasonably burdensome, are common in Western Europe

You know what else is common in Europe?

Hospitals providing abortion services.

/shocking


You know what else is common in Europe/Scandinavia? The morning after pill is sold over the counter.
 
2013-08-05 12:45:34 PM

houginator: I'm at the pretty far end of the anti-abortion spectrum, and i'd be fine with it. And it should be pointed out, Abortion should always be legal in the case of a health threat to the life of the mother, regardless of length of the pregnancy. I think single payer healthcare (in general) is it's own can of worms, but i would be perfectly fine with a single payer system for prenatal healthcare and pregnancy costs

any case because the circumstances aren't any of your goddamn business.

There. All fixed.
 
2013-08-05 12:46:04 PM

DarwiOdrade: If we could get reality-based counseling, good comprehensive sex-ed, and the same ubiquitous contraception, we could have abortion laws like theirs, too.


Bingo.
 
2013-08-05 12:46:44 PM
Um, no, alot of those restrictions seemed quite reasonable, like free on demand up to 12 weeks with an increasing series of execptions based on health and even financial burden? Yeah, I only wish our policy ever became that reasonable.
 
2013-08-05 12:49:09 PM
the Jewish state of Israel has fairly heavy-handed abortion laws. Abortion is illegal for married women between ages 17 and 40, except in cases of rape, incest, fetal malformation, or risk to the mother's physical or mental health.

Well, that just seems to be horrendously misogynistic.
Who knew that in Israel part of the marriage ceremony involved handing over to your husband all rights to making medical decisions about your own body?
 
2013-08-05 12:49:51 PM

Nemo's Brother: Stop being racist! Please ignore this or you're racist! Glenn Beck killed someone in the 90s! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


I think this guy might be having a stroke.
 
2013-08-05 12:49:57 PM

DarwiOdrade: The counseling they get in Europe is reality-based, not the scare tactics and lies the pro-lifers try to peddle. Also, sex-education is comprehensive and, again, reality based - they even talk about teh ghey in European sex-ed classes! Finally, contraception is freely available and their health insurance covers birth control.

If we could get reality-based counseling, good comprehensive sex-ed, and the same ubiquitous contraception, we could have abortion laws like theirs, too.


But then the Republicans wouldn't be able to continue treating women like chattel.

And that would interfere with their ultimate goal of being indistinguishable from the Taliban.

/Not that there's any meaningful difference right now.
 
2013-08-05 12:50:43 PM

factoryconnection: Countries with well-below-replacement birthrates and significant social safety nets to aid new mothers in raising productive, educated members of society have a different point of view on reproduction in general and abortion specifically than our country?

Huh.


Two points:

Firstly, no, it isn't some different-but-still-leftist thing, it's just that most European nations are in many ways what someone thinking in terms of US politics would call extremely socially conservative.  Church influence on government, for instance, is generally considered allowable and in some cases is even formalized, and on a number of topics the European consensus just straight-up agrees with the US far right.  Don't break your brain trying to turn Europe into some sort of leftist Marysuetopia, it's a real place with its own real, practical politics and the weird fetishization the left sometimes applies to northern and western Europe is frankly just stupid.

Short version: Europeans have restrictions on abortion for the same root reasons the US's GOP wants restrictions... mostly religion.

Secondly, the problem with abortion restrictions in the US isn't really the restrictions themselves, it's using the restrictions as a lever to deny women access to abortion services at all.  Things like waiting periods and so on in the context of a system that guarantees care if you're willing to seek it are different from sticking artificial barriers in front of a procedure to make it difficult to obtain.
 
2013-08-05 12:51:35 PM

Whiskey Pete: houginator: I'm at the pretty far end of the anti-abortion spectrum, and i'd be fine with it. And it should be pointed out, Abortion should always be legal in the case of a health threat to the life of the mother, regardless of length of the pregnancy. I think single payer healthcare (in general) is it's own can of worms, but i would be perfectly fine with a single payer system for prenatal healthcare and pregnancy costs any case because the circumstances aren't any of your goddamn business.

There. All fixed.


Any case?

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pd f
 
2013-08-05 12:53:55 PM

Karac: the Jewish state of Israel has fairly heavy-handed abortion laws. Abortion is illegal for married women between ages 17 and 40, except in cases of rape, incest, fetal malformation, or risk to the mother's physical or mental health.

Well, that just seems to be horrendously misogynistic.
Who knew that in Israel part of the marriage ceremony involved handing over to your husband all rights to making medical decisions about your own body?


"The Jewish womb belongs to the Jewish people."  that's Handmaid's Tale scary.
 
2013-08-05 12:54:40 PM
Leaving aside the idiocy of the typical Fark troll headline, there's this:

"I assumed that Western Europe would be the land of abortion on demand, likely government-subsidized, and possibly with a free bag of condoms afterward."

There isn't even an attempt to explain the basis of this ridiculous assumption; the author just throws out "I assumed" and leaves it there like a flaming paper bag of dogsh*t. I know journalism pays worse than ever these days, but jeezus.
 
2013-08-05 12:55:11 PM

houginator: Whiskey Pete: houginator: I'm at the pretty far end of the anti-abortion spectrum, and i'd be fine with it. And it should be pointed out, Abortion should always be legal in the case of a health threat to the life of the mother, regardless of length of the pregnancy. I think single payer healthcare (in general) is it's own can of worms, but i would be perfectly fine with a single payer system for prenatal healthcare and pregnancy costs any case because the circumstances aren't any of your goddamn business.

There. All fixed.

Any case?

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pd f


You folks can pull Gosnell out of your asses for all of eternity for all that I care (and you will). It was a very extreme exception. So yes. The circumstances should remain between a woman and her physician. Not a bunch of nutty god-botherers.
 
2013-08-05 12:55:38 PM

Elegy: So judging on the early comments in this thread, this would be a good social compromise for America that reaches across the bipartisan divide?

Scale back abortion to 12 weeks with mandatory waiting peripds and counseling in exchange for single payer healthcare (which would ultimately result in greater postnatal support).

Just curious as to whether or not those of you with views at the more extreme ends of the spectrum would go for a compromise like this.


I fail to see how it's a compromise. One side wants to restrict abortions and control women, the other side wants medical privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive freedom. Your suggestion restricts abortions and controls women, while offering no privacy, autonomy, or freedom. In what way is that a compromise?

How about this for a compromise: abortions are a private medical procedure, between a woman and her physician; and in exchange, you don't have to have a mandatory waiting period and mandatory ultrasounds for your hemorrhoid surgery?
 
2013-08-05 12:58:32 PM

houginator: http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pd f


Was that GJ report written by an eighth grader? Yeesh.
 
2013-08-05 12:59:11 PM

DarwiOdrade: The counseling they get in Europe is reality-based, not the scare tactics and lies the pro-lifers try to peddle. Also, sex-education is comprehensive and, again, reality based - they even talk about teh ghey in European sex-ed classes! Finally, contraception is freely available and their health insurance covers birth control.

If we could get reality-based counseling, good comprehensive sex-ed, and the same ubiquitous contraception, we could have abortion laws like theirs, too.


Marcus Aurelius:
You know what else is common in Europe?

Hospitals providing abortion services.



shastacola:

You know what else is common in Europe/Scandinavia? The morning after pill is sold over the counter.

I came here to make note of all these things.  I see it's been done.  Thank you.
 
2013-08-05 12:59:39 PM

Karac: the Jewish state of Israel has fairly heavy-handed abortion laws. Abortion is illegal for married women between ages 17 and 40, except in cases of rape, incest, fetal malformation, or risk to the mother's physical or mental health.

Well, that just seems to be horrendously misogynistic.
Who knew that in Israel part of the marriage ceremony involved handing over to your husband all rights to making medical decisions about your own body?


Wait, what? How do you get that from the pull quote? Looks like no one gets to OK the decision to have an abortion other than a doctor or cop (or judge).

And actually, the Torah is A-OK with abortion in the case of risk to anyone's health, though not in the case of rape/incest. (I can provide a citation or two if need be.)
 
2013-08-05 12:59:51 PM
Once again, conservatives COMPLETELY miss the big picture.

Shocking.
 
2013-08-05 01:00:34 PM
Who cares, just because Europe is messing up does not mean we should. It's not a contest to find how sucks the most, the ongoing enterprise of society that dictates we engineer government to create the best society for as many of us to prosper as possible (at least since the during the events leading up to the Magna Carte signing taught nobles etc. that the commoner doesn't really need them as much as the nobles needed the commoner etc.).

Sorry you "lionize the Bible into law" or "raid society" Rightwing types didn't get the memo.
 
2013-08-05 01:01:32 PM
If subby doesn't like the freedoms granted under the U.S. constitution then he can go love in Europe.
 
2013-08-05 01:02:15 PM

houginator: Whiskey Pete: houginator: I'm at the pretty far end of the anti-abortion spectrum, and i'd be fine with it. And it should be pointed out, Abortion should always be legal in the case of a health threat to the life of the mother, regardless of length of the pregnancy. I think single payer healthcare (in general) is it's own can of worms, but i would be perfectly fine with a single payer system for prenatal healthcare and pregnancy costs any case because the circumstances aren't any of your goddamn business.

There. All fixed.

Any case?

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pd f


Yes, abortion should be legal in any case. Gross medical malpractice should be illegal. Or are you suggesting that every woman who obtained an abortion at Gosnell's clinic should be charged with a crime because they did something wrong?

What crime would you charge women seeking an abortion with, and what punishment would you impose?
 
2013-08-05 01:04:57 PM

Theaetetus: Yes, abortion should be legal in any case. Gross medical malpractice should be illegal. Or are you suggesting that every woman who obtained an abortion at Gosnell's clinic should be charged with a crime because they did something wrong?

What crime would you charge women seeking an abortion with, and what punishment would you impose?


It should also be noted that if Gosnell's office and surroundings were so unsavory then a woman should be able to just go elsewhere. What's that? Oh. Because of the wingnuts there is no "elsewhere".
 
2013-08-05 01:07:50 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: themindiswatching: We're going to be arguing abortion for the next 50 years, aren't we?

Yes. Related: Why Patriarchal Men Are Utterly Petrified of Birth Control -- And Why We'll Still Be Fighting About it 100 Years From Now


Interesting read, thanks!
 
2013-08-05 01:12:09 PM
"...the Jewish state of Israel has fairly heavy-handed abortion laws. Abortion is illegal for married women between ages 17 and 40, except in cases of rape, incest, fetal malformation, or risk to the mother's physical or mental health. "

Er, what other legitimate reasons are there to have an abortion? Inconvenience? Need to look good in a bikini? Admittedly economic concerns are not on that list, but I suspect they would fall under "mental health" if the mother were sufficiently anxious about the baby's economic impact. As a matter of fact, the Torah is pretty explicit about the moral issues surrounding abortion. Ironically, it comes right out of every Standyergrounder's favorite biblical passage:

"When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." (Exodus 20:22)

In other words causing fetal death is a property crime, punishable with a fine. In fact, the baby is not considered fully human until it's head and shoulders out of the womb (according to some, until it graduates from medical school)Tough, but you gotta draw the line somewhere and as we're seeing now, the alternative we're seeing proposed now is that life begins when the condom breaks.
 
2013-08-05 01:13:10 PM
I'd like to see Rush or any elected GOP official recommend any of that. They'd be shut down before they completed the sentence.
 
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