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(NBC News)   It's not just in Detroit where rich, corporate, conservative assholes are trying to use the guise of "fiscal reform" to plunder the pensions promised for decades to public workers   (nbcnews.com) divider line 241
    More: Sad, Detroit, pensions, 34th state, accounting practice, Line-item veto, Meredith Whitney, Arlington County, workers  
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6971 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Aug 2013 at 9:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-05 09:45:28 AM
No duh, they won't stop until they are forced to.
 
2013-08-05 09:45:30 AM
Thieves
 
2013-08-05 09:46:05 AM
If you negotiate a deal that's impossible for the other party to keep, don't be surprised if they don't keep it.
 
2013-08-05 09:46:37 AM
So maybe some Fark conservative can explain to me why these payments are coming out of operating finds? It's not like pensions are an emergency expense. They take literally decades to accrue, and it seems like plans should have been made to you know, save the money to pay them when they come due.
 
2013-08-05 09:47:44 AM
Plundering pension plans is very profitable.  It's one of the reasons we can't have nice things in this country.
 
2013-08-05 09:48:57 AM
Newsflash, liberals also plunder.
 
2013-08-05 09:49:15 AM

MFAWG: So maybe some Fark conservative can explain to me why these payments are coming out of operating finds? It's not like pensions are an emergency expense. They take literally decades to accrue, and it seems like plans should have been made to you know, save the money to pay them when they come due.


Plans have been underfunded for decades and assumed insane returns. My county, one of the richest in the country, hasn't made its full pension contribution for years.

It is however run by Democrats, not conservatives.
 
2013-08-05 09:49:18 AM

MFAWG: So maybe some Fark conservative can explain to me why these payments are coming out of operating finds? It's not like pensions are an emergency expense. They take literally decades to accrue, and it seems like plans should have been made to you know, save the money to pay them when they come due.


I believe their answer will be one word, repeated over and over, while they're in a straitjacket.
 
2013-08-05 09:49:19 AM
Actually, blimps are pretty responsive when it comes to turning. Maybe the guy meant to say "oil tanker".
 
2013-08-05 09:49:37 AM

Marcus Aurelius: Plundering pension plans is very profitable.  It's one of the reasons we can't have nice things in this country.


On the other hand, it's a compelling reason to abandon pensions.
 
2013-08-05 09:50:49 AM

MFAWG: So maybe some Fark conservative can explain to me why these payments are coming out of operating finds? It's not like pensions are an emergency expense. They take literally decades to accrue, and it seems like plans should have been made to you know, save the money to pay them when they come due.


Many local pension plans invested heavily in the stock market to either make more money or to get ahead of rising pension costs (some states did this too). When the bottom fell out of the market, those pension plans lost huge amounts of money, and the bill is now coming due.
 
2013-08-05 09:51:31 AM
DNRTFA, but how can "corporate fatcats" raid public pension funds?  Public pensions are underfunded because it's easy to make a promise that someone else 10 years down the road is going to have to raise taxes to fulfill.
 
2013-08-05 09:51:58 AM
I wouldn't really hold Detroit up as an example of this.  Even if they seized the entire pension fund for every city employee, it still wouldn't save Detroit.
 
2013-08-05 09:53:37 AM
Grade C communist derp headline there subby. I'll give it a 5/10
 
2013-08-05 09:53:52 AM
Well, that's not what's happening in Detroit, it turns out.
 
2013-08-05 09:54:06 AM
These pensions are nothing but Ponzi schemes and in this Great Obama Depression, with unemployment through the roof, the unions don't have enough marks that they can dupe into making payments.
 
2013-08-05 09:54:07 AM
"Our members were promised certain things,"

And you kept voting for them in exchange for those promises made to you which they didn't keep?


BRB gotta find my violin,
 
2013-08-05 09:54:11 AM

YixilTesiphon: If you negotiate a deal that's impossible for the other party to keep, don't be surprised if they don't keep it.


So you'd be just fine working for one huge paycheck a year and then having the company tell you in December - um, hey, we blew your paycheck on gold toilet fixtures for the CEO's doghouse.  You probably should have expected that because it's what companies do.

The politicians over 40 years took the politically expedient route of writing an IOU instead of funding their expenses in real time.  Definitely should screw thousands and thousands of people out of their retirement - I mean, hey, they should have expected it.
 
2013-08-05 09:54:11 AM

Mr. Eugenides: DNRTFA, but how can "corporate fatcats" raid public pension funds?  Public pensions are underfunded because it's easy to make a promise that someone else 10 years down the road is going to have to raise taxes to fulfill.


Everything is the fault of corporate fatcats when it has to do in some way with money. Public schools ineffective? Corporate fatcats!
 
2013-08-05 09:54:15 AM

YixilTesiphon: MFAWG: So maybe some Fark conservative can explain to me why these payments are coming out of operating finds? It's not like pensions are an emergency expense. They take literally decades to accrue, and it seems like plans should have been made to you know, save the money to pay them when they come due.

Plans have been underfunded for decades and assumed insane returns. My county, one of the richest in the country, hasn't made its full pension contribution for years.

It is however run by Democrats, not conservatives.


I find it comforting that when it comes to a crisis, both Democrat and Republican leaders alike can join hands, roll up their sleeves, and take advantage of the rest of us.

Politicians are just like corporate executives.  They don't really care about the long term, because they can get theirs as long as people are happy in the short term.
 
2013-08-05 09:54:18 AM

YixilTesiphon: If you negotiate a deal that's impossible for the other party to keep, don't be surprised if they don't keep it.


"Yeah we decided to stop contributing to the fund, so we obviously can't pay it. You shouldn't be surprised, it's really your fault."
 
2013-08-05 09:54:43 AM
See Myth: Social Security Lock Box.

Thanks Al Gore.
 
2013-08-05 09:55:56 AM
I think we should raise CEO wages by another factor of 10.  That'll fix everything.
 
2013-08-05 09:56:26 AM

Fizpez: YixilTesiphon: If you negotiate a deal that's impossible for the other party to keep, don't be surprised if they don't keep it.

So you'd be just fine working for one huge paycheck a year and then having the company tell you in December - um, hey, we blew your paycheck on gold toilet fixtures for the CEO's doghouse.  You probably should have expected that because it's what companies do.

The politicians over 40 years took the politically expedient route of writing an IOU instead of funding their expenses in real time.  Definitely should screw thousands and thousands of people out of their retirement - I mean, hey, they should have expected it.


No, of course it's wrong that the retirees are getting screwed out of what they were promised. The fault lies with the union leaders and politicians that negotiated these impossible benefits, not with the people who want governments to provide services or with the low-level employees that made plans based on what they were promised.
 
2013-08-05 09:56:57 AM
they're taking away the pensions of career military service folk? that's reprehensible!

wait, sanitation engineers and child brain-molding cog-stampers might not get their pensions? good. why'd they ever think they deserved pensions in the first place? if they had personally negotiated some sort of pension arrangement where none otherwise would have existed then i'd feel some sympathy, but if it's just something they feel entitled to for sticking around in a job they probably disliked and for which they were overpaid then i'm glad that their pension fantasies are being crushed.

/how many people upset about maybe having an underfunded govt. pension plan are people who vocally oppose 'big government' and families who get food stamps and such? just curious.
 
2013-08-05 09:56:59 AM

YixilTesiphon: MFAWG: So maybe some Fark conservative can explain to me why these payments are coming out of operating finds? It's not like pensions are an emergency expense. They take literally decades to accrue, and it seems like plans should have been made to you know, save the money to pay them when they come due.

Plans have been underfunded for decades and assumed insane returns. My county, one of the richest in the country, hasn't made its full pension contribution for years.

It is however run by Democrats, not conservatives.


NJ has the same problem with underfunded pensions....a state with some of the highest income and property taxes in the country....which has also had a democratic majority in the state legislature since forever.
 
2013-08-05 09:57:26 AM

HotWingConspiracy: YixilTesiphon: If you negotiate a deal that's impossible for the other party to keep, don't be surprised if they don't keep it.

"Yeah we decided to stop contributing to the fund, so we obviously can't pay it. You shouldn't be surprised, it's really your fault."


What is the point of the unions that negotiated these benefits if they don't make sure steps are taken to ensure the benefits are there?
 
2013-08-05 09:58:09 AM

YixilTesiphon: MFAWG: So maybe some Fark conservative can explain to me why these payments are coming out of operating finds? It's not like pensions are an emergency expense. They take literally decades to accrue, and it seems like plans should have been made to you know, save the money to pay them when they come due.

Plans have been underfunded for decades and assumed insane returns. My county, one of the richest in the country, hasn't made its full pension contribution for years.

It is however run by Democrats, not conservatives.


I don't care which party they're in.  There is a renascent Reaganism in this country, that says, "We here job-creatin' job creators are tired of being limited to four or five mansions and absurdly disproportionate influence in wealth and power.  We want 25 superestates, each with a private airport, and hyperbolically ridiciulous wealth and influence, and it's about time the so-called 'working poor' started paying their fair share."

They're starting with public union employees and they won't stop until they've seized every single asset in the entire world.  You have no right to own a house; you should be renting in Potterville and buying at the company store.

And their number one tool is telling the people they're not currently plundering, "Look at how those lazy...um...urbanites are laughing up their sleeve at you while you work all day long.  Are you going to stand for that, um...Real Murcan? Well are you?"
 
2013-08-05 09:58:51 AM

Ker_Thwap: Newsflash, liberals also plunder.


Example? Tip: "Democrat" and "Liberal" are not synonyms.
 
2013-08-05 09:58:57 AM
YixilTesiphon:Everything is the fault of corporate fatcats when it has to do in some way with money. Public schools ineffective? Corporate fatcats!

Oddly enough, public schools are more effective than private and charter schools.  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090226093423.htm
 
2013-08-05 10:00:21 AM

GoldSpider: Marcus Aurelius: Plundering pension plans is very profitable.  It's one of the reasons we can't have nice things in this country.

On the other hand, it's a compelling reason to abandon pensions.


Or, I don't know, make it more difficult to plunder them...
 
2013-08-05 10:00:54 AM

the801: they're taking away the pensions of career military service folk? that's reprehensible!

wait, sanitation engineers and child brain-molding cog-stampers might not get their pensions? good. why'd they ever think they deserved pensions in the first place? if they had personally negotiated some sort of pension arrangement where none otherwise would have existed then i'd feel some sympathy, but if it's just something they feel entitled to for sticking around in a job they probably disliked and for which they were overpaid then i'm glad that their pension fantasies are being crushed.

/how many people upset about maybe having an underfunded govt. pension plan are people who vocally oppose 'big government' and families who get food stamps and such? just curious.


We don't need sewage workers, because cholera is hilarious.
 
2013-08-05 10:02:06 AM
Yay, ignorant classists.
 
2013-08-05 10:02:41 AM
This is just a symptom of the underlying issue. When wages do not keep pace with inflation, and a significant percentage of the wealth is held by just a few, the economic engine runs out of gas. Government debts increase, pensions go unfunded, tax revenues fall.
 
2013-08-05 10:03:13 AM

YixilTesiphon: HotWingConspiracy: YixilTesiphon: If you negotiate a deal that's impossible for the other party to keep, don't be surprised if they don't keep it.

"Yeah we decided to stop contributing to the fund, so we obviously can't pay it. You shouldn't be surprised, it's really your fault."

What is the point of the unions that negotiated these benefits if they don't make sure steps are taken to ensure the benefits are there?


I'm really not willing to discuss what the "point" of a union is with you, as you clearly already know.

What powers would a union invoke to compel the government to spend money a specific way?
 
2013-08-05 10:03:15 AM

Kibbler: YixilTesiphon: MFAWG: So maybe some Fark conservative can explain to me why these payments are coming out of operating finds? It's not like pensions are an emergency expense. They take literally decades to accrue, and it seems like plans should have been made to you know, save the money to pay them when they come due.

Plans have been underfunded for decades and assumed insane returns. My county, one of the richest in the country, hasn't made its full pension contribution for years.

It is however run by Democrats, not conservatives.

I don't care which party they're in.  There is a renascent Reaganism in this country, that says, "We here job-creatin' job creators are tired of being limited to four or five mansions and absurdly disproportionate influence in wealth and power.  We want 25 superestates, each with a private airport, and hyperbolically ridiciulous wealth and influence, and it's about time the so-called 'working poor' started paying their fair share."

They're starting with public union employees and they won't stop until they've seized every single asset in the entire world.  You have no right to own a house; you should be renting in Potterville and buying at the company store.

And their number one tool is telling the people they're not currently plundering, "Look at how those lazy...um...urbanites are laughing up their sleeve at you while you work all day long.  Are you going to stand for that, um...Real Murcan? Well are you?"


Which do you prefer, governments stop services, or stop paying pensions? Neither is a good choice, but you can't just complain that the choice exists.
 
2013-08-05 10:04:00 AM
Conservatives in Detroit?

wtf?
 
2013-08-05 10:04:25 AM

HotWingConspiracy: YixilTesiphon: HotWingConspiracy: YixilTesiphon: If you negotiate a deal that's impossible for the other party to keep, don't be surprised if they don't keep it.

"Yeah we decided to stop contributing to the fund, so we obviously can't pay it. You shouldn't be surprised, it's really your fault."

What is the point of the unions that negotiated these benefits if they don't make sure steps are taken to ensure the benefits are there?

I'm really not willing to discuss what the "point" of a union is with you, as you clearly already know.

What powers would a union invoke to compel the government to spend money a specific way?


The same ones they use to negotiate benefits, presumably.
 
2013-08-05 10:04:58 AM

Carn: I think we should raise CEO wages by another factor of 10.  That'll fix everything.


What? No tax cut?
 
2013-08-05 10:05:47 AM

YixilTesiphon: Which do you prefer, governments stop services, or stop paying pensions?


Given the unshakeable premise that all taxation is theft, why not both?
 
2013-08-05 10:05:58 AM

ltr77: YixilTesiphon:Everything is the fault of corporate fatcats when it has to do in some way with money. Public schools ineffective? Corporate fatcats!

Oddly enough, public schools are more effective than private and charter schools.  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090226093423.htm


It's easy to outscore the private and charter schools when there are massive cheating scandals going on across the country within the public school system.
 
2013-08-05 10:07:04 AM
Last report on my company's pension fund is we're funded to 115% of project liabilities.  It's good to work for a good organization.  6% 401k match as well.

Despite that, according to our pension fund guy, PBGC premiums have been steadily rising against inflation over the past 10 - 15 years due to the bankruptcy of some rather large companies with promised pension benefits.  I always wondered why PBGC didn't have to cover state and local governments.
 
2013-08-05 10:07:06 AM
You think Detroit has any actual pension money to plunder?
 
2013-08-05 10:07:17 AM
Shouldn't the city leaders go to jail for this?
 
2013-08-05 10:07:34 AM

LordJiro: Ker_Thwap: Newsflash, liberals also plunder.

Example? Tip: "Democrat" and "Liberal" are not synonyms.


I've spent 30 years in the business world.  I've learned that people seldom let their ideology stand in the way of profit.  Religious, political, social, etc.   Thanks for the patronizing lesson on synonyms.
 
2013-08-05 10:08:21 AM
Also, my county has a very high credit rating despite underfunding its pension, which is part of the problem.
 
2013-08-05 10:08:46 AM

Lerxst2k: Conservatives in Detroit?

wtf?


Subby is a maroon, they've been gone for over 60 years.... dems ran it into the ground
 
2013-08-05 10:10:23 AM

YixilTesiphon: HotWingConspiracy: YixilTesiphon: HotWingConspiracy: YixilTesiphon: If you negotiate a deal that's impossible for the other party to keep, don't be surprised if they don't keep it.

"Yeah we decided to stop contributing to the fund, so we obviously can't pay it. You shouldn't be surprised, it's really your fault."

What is the point of the unions that negotiated these benefits if they don't make sure steps are taken to ensure the benefits are there?

I'm really not willing to discuss what the "point" of a union is with you, as you clearly already know.

What powers would a union invoke to compel the government to spend money a specific way?

The same ones they use to negotiate benefits, presumably.


If you think the union has the ability to veto or approve municipal spending, I'm not really sure what to tell you. The states have obligations that they intentionally ignored, and you want us to blame the union for it for some reason.
 
2013-08-05 10:10:30 AM

propasaurus: Carn: I think we should raise CEO wages by another factor of 10.  That'll fix everything.

What? No tax cut?


Ok ok.  Lop another, oh, 5% off the top bracket too.  And give each person in that bracket a family of poor urban people to live with them and work for them.  We'll contract it and the rich guy can make them do whatever as long as he feeds them a bowl of gruel every day.  Every other day.  There we go!
 
2013-08-05 10:10:52 AM

Mose: PBGC premiums have been steadily rising against inflation over the past 10 - 15 years due to the bankruptcy of some rather large companies with promised pension benefits. I always wondered why PBGC didn't have to cover state and local governments.


I think it explains why in the fine print of the TPS Report.

BMFPitt: You think Detroit has any actual pension money to plunder?


Nah... we just chewed them out for flying in on private jets to ask our Congresscritters for bailout cash.
 
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