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(Business Insider)   75 Cleveland police shoot an unarmed, innocent couple a total of 137 times. Police department's response? To "discipline" them   (businessinsider.com) divider line 233
    More: Sick, Cleveland Police, Ohio Attorney General, Mike DeWine, disciplines  
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21960 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Aug 2013 at 7:42 AM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-05 10:37:03 AM

tblax: Maybe I missed it, but can someone tell me what initiated the chase in the first place? What did this couple do?


According to the cops...who've been found to be untruthful..they ran a stop sign.

According to the forensic mechanic quoted, their car backfired....which sounds like gunfire, if you're a scared little girl...or a Cleveland police officer.

And according to some folks here, traffic violations are a capital crime.
 
2013-08-05 10:40:32 AM

doglover: ReverendJasen: doglover: 1,700 cops for a city of 400,000. I don't know how that stacks up with other cities.

In Tokyo The number of inhabitants per police officer is 290:1

So less cops per capita than Tokyo.

Actually...
400,000:1700 = 235:1
That's more cops per capita than 290:1.

Oh yeah, 235 is citizens, not cops. Duh. Brain fart.


Cops are citizens. Usually. However, the police don't police the police, so for accuracy's sake, they should be counted separately from other citizens. Coincidentally, cops are also usually civilians, although you wouldn't know it from listening to them talk.
 
2013-08-05 10:41:03 AM

gfid: PunGent: Nygis: They tried to run them over with the car.

Nope.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/02/cleveland_police_ch as e_and_shooting_scene.html

And, since the cops here were apparently using unmarked vehicles leading the chase, it's possible the poor bastards didn't even know they were being pursued.

I seriously doubt that.  Unmarked cars generally have hidden lights and I don't believe there were no marked cruisers.

OTOH, from your link it says the shooting lasted 30 seconds, but one of the 13 who fired managed to shoot 49 rounds?   Huh?  I know there are automatic weapons that can easily fire that fast, but seriously?


There were marked cruisers, but the article quotes an officer complaining about UN-marked cars leading the chase...makes it hard to know who's being chased.  We don't know if the un-marked units used their lights, even if they had them...and since the cops have already lied about several other things, you can't really trust them on that point.

Sad when junkies have more credibility than officers, frankly.

Afa the 49 rounds in 30 seconds, I'm not really a handgun guy...I don't know how likely that is.

I suspect the cops are compressing the shooting time frame...easy to do, accidentally, in the heat of "combat", or it might be deliberate, to make themselves look better.   They're pretty much grasping for straws on this one.
 
2013-08-05 10:45:12 AM
"discipline" = Two Weeks Paid Administrative Leave.
 
2013-08-05 10:48:00 AM
FTA: "Use of unnecessary force in the apprehension of the Blues Brothers has been approved."
 
2013-08-05 10:51:38 AM

dickfreckle: I'll never understand why it takes 60 police vehicles to chase one car. This isn't the Blues Brothers.


This story comes from an urban environment. I don't picture 60 cars chasing one, Blues Brothers style. I picture cars "involved in the pursuit" as fanning out, staging at intersections, communicating by radio and attempting a coordinated effort to herd the fleeing vehicle in a particular direction and ultimately stopping it.

I don't know Cleveland, but I imagine it's similar to other larger cities with blocks, side-streets and alleys that would necessitate a good number of police units in order to cast a net sufficient to catch the fleeing suspect.

This is all aside of the propriety of the police officers' actions after the stop, which are certainly questionable.
 
2013-08-05 10:51:54 AM

PunGent: "Found traces of cocaine and alcohol"


There's about a bajillion links so I'll admit that maybe I missed one, but the only link of the seven or eight I opened where the word "trace" was found was in relation to the passenger's marijuana test.

Sooo.... gonna have to do a [citation needed] on ya, buddy.
 
2013-08-05 10:59:05 AM

Loren: Exactly. The military calls it the fog of war, there is no civilian term even though the same thing happens.


That's because even the dumbest cop should be able to figure out that he's not on a battlefield.
 
2013-08-05 11:06:07 AM

skozlaw: PunGent: "Found traces of cocaine and alcohol"

There's about a bajillion links so I'll admit that maybe I missed one, but the only link of the seven or eight I opened where the word "trace" was found was in relation to the passenger's marijuana test.

Sooo.... gonna have to do a [citation needed] on ya, buddy.


Russell might have fled from police initially, fueling the massive chase,. Toxicology results show that Russell was at the time of his death.  Williams was also high on cocaine and had marijuana in her system.

Read more:http://www.businessinsider.com/cleveland-police-disciplined-in-d eadly- chase-2013-8#ixzz2b6it56Qc
 
2013-08-05 11:11:45 AM
To "discipline" them?

75 Shades of Blue
 
2013-08-05 11:14:19 AM
But after the chase ended in a gunfight near Heritage Middle School, police checked the car and realized neither Williams nor Russell was armed.

Nobody had a throwdown gun? The cops should be disciplined.
 
2013-08-05 11:15:24 AM

wambu: To "discipline" them?

75 Shades of Blue


Doesn't that movie have Kathleen Turner in it?
 
2013-08-05 11:17:05 AM

NutWrench: Loren: Exactly. The military calls it the fog of war, there is no civilian term even though the same thing happens.

That's because even the dumbest cop should be able to figure out that he's not on a battlefield.


"Should" be able to, but probably doesn't. They talk about it being "a war out there" and a lot of them really think of themselves as semi-military. Post 9/11 hysteria made us give up the 4th Amendment in favor of security, so they expect their authority to be unquestioned and react aggressively when it is not.
 
2013-08-05 11:17:07 AM

cwolf20: Harry.  Dang wake up alarm.


Actually, I liked your original posting suggesting  Dirty Hairy.  You could have a bright future as a fetish porn director...or Ke$ha's business manager.
 
2013-08-05 11:20:23 AM

gglibertine: Oh, for christ's sake, people. The victims were moronic scumbags who ran from the police, the cops were moronic scumbags who went all shock 'n awe on a couple of unarmed moronic scumbags.

I think in this case, we should all be able to agree that both sides were bad.


Sure.  Now in the aftermath, I've noticed that ONE side is dead, executed in public.  Since BOTH sides were bad, how can we even things up in the here and now, whatwith one side publicly executed and the other not just still breathing, but still being paid by our taxes.

/things that make you go hmmmmmmmm
 
2013-08-05 11:27:32 AM

theflatline: Read more:http://www.businessinsider.com/cleveland-police-disciplined-in-d eadly- chase-2013-8#ixzz2b6it56Qc


Heh... wrong citation in the wrong direction. He claimed the amounts were 'trace' but none of the links seem to say that in relation to anything but the THC in the passenger's blood. They all either outright state or imply that the driver was high as a kite and possibly drunk as well.
 
2013-08-05 11:32:37 AM
Next they're gonna be calling in airstrikes on jaywalkers...nothing against the guys and gals coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan, but they sometimes forget that they're back home. A couple of weeks ago, at the bar I go to, there was a little scuffle outside and some of the local yokels showed up. Every one had a high-and-tight and instead of the normal uniform, all of them were wearing the "alternate" uniform the town I live in has authorized for situations like searches and stuff that'd mess up the standard uniform-black BDUS with bloused boots. They looked more like a bunch of the Stormfront guys than cops and hearing them talk on the radios reminded me of when I was in the service again.
 
2013-08-05 11:34:56 AM
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-08-05 11:36:34 AM

Evil Mackerel: wambu: To "discipline" them?

75 Shades of Blue

Doesn't that movie have Kathleen Turner in it?


I hope it was from one of her few "good years".
 
2013-08-05 11:45:59 AM
Thread needs William Defoe.
 
2013-08-05 12:04:55 PM

flynn80: Thread needs William Defoe.


Really? You wanna fap to this?
 
2013-08-05 12:16:38 PM

skozlaw: theflatline: Read more:http://www.businessinsider.com/cleveland-police-disciplined-in-d eadly- chase-2013-8#ixzz2b6it56Qc

Heh... wrong citation in the wrong direction. He claimed the amounts were 'trace' but none of the links seem to say that in relation to anything but the THC in the passenger's blood. They all either outright state or imply that the driver was high as a kite and possibly drunk as well.


Did we maybe check 75 cops' blood for cocaine and MJ?
No need, they are being "disciplined". Since I have first person experience w/ this sorta thingie, I'll wager 75% of them fail the same standards foisted on the deceased.

"Backfire" o, rly?
Most of you have never seen a backfire in your life. They went out of use in like 1970 when engine controls started their incremental climb.

The lesson I take away is there is a real problem with disconnecting the police from the policed and the solution will self find. And you will not like it.
At the top, the Chief, is where you start to find the real asshats running things. The ones that know they cannot replace all those sociopaths, must keep 'em on "discipline" rather than dismissal.
"Police spokespersons" have got to invent some better up to date lies.
 
2013-08-05 12:23:52 PM

snocone: "Backfire" o, rly?
Most of you have never seen a backfire in your life. They went out of use in like 1970 when engine controls started their incremental climb.


Most recent one I remember was in 1991. A K-Car.
 
2013-08-05 12:35:29 PM

skozlaw: PunGent: "Found traces of cocaine and alcohol"

There's about a bajillion links so I'll admit that maybe I missed one, but the only link of the seven or eight I opened where the word "trace" was found was in relation to the passenger's marijuana test.

Sooo.... gonna have to do a [citation needed] on ya, buddy.


They charge 'em with DUI?  there ya go.
 
2013-08-05 12:39:19 PM

theflatline: skozlaw: PunGent: "Found traces of cocaine and alcohol"

There's about a bajillion links so I'll admit that maybe I missed one, but the only link of the seven or eight I opened where the word "trace" was found was in relation to the passenger's marijuana test.

Sooo.... gonna have to do a [citation needed] on ya, buddy.

Russell might have fled from police initially, fueling the massive chase,. Toxicology results show that Russell was at the time of his death.  Williams was also high on cocaine and had marijuana in her system.

Read more:http://www.businessinsider.com/cleveland-police-disciplined-in-d eadly- chase-2013-8#ixzz2b6it56Qc


Again, we don't know that.  That link you post says "he was high" and gives a sub-link...which DOESN'T say any such thing.

Crappy reporting at best, mindlessly taking the cop's word for it at worst.

Hell, at this point, I'd have to be suspicious of even the formal pathologist's report.  Gonna need an independent autopsy before I trust the locals on this one.
 
2013-08-05 12:39:21 PM
Russell might have fled from police initially, fueling the massive chase,. Toxicology results show that Russell was at the time of his death.  Williams was also high on cocaine and had marijuana in her system.

And nothing of value was lost.  fark people who drive under the influence.  I wish they'd all get shot.
 
2013-08-05 12:41:07 PM

wolfpaq777: Russell might have fled from police initially, fueling the massive chase,. Toxicology results show that Russell was at the time of his death.  Williams was also high on cocaine and had marijuana in her system.

And nothing of value was lost.  fark people who drive under the influence.  I wish they'd all get shot.


Yeah...go read the actual links again.  NO proof they were "high"...and that's not a legal definition, anyway.
If there was, the cops would be shouting it from the rooftops.

You may be right, these two may be losers of the first degree...but that shouldn't be a death sentence.

We'd have to dig a LOT of graves, in that case :)
 
2013-08-05 12:44:14 PM

skozlaw: theflatline: Read more:http://www.businessinsider.com/cleveland-police-disciplined-in-d eadly- chase-2013-8#ixzz2b6it56Qc

Heh... wrong citation in the wrong direction. He claimed the amounts were 'trace' but none of the links seem to say that in relation to anything but the THC in the passenger's blood. They all either outright state or imply that the driver was high as a kite and possibly drunk as well.


Actually, those reporters may have set themselves up for a serious slander/libel suit, unless the tox screen backs them up.   The cops didn't allege weaving, which you'd expect from a DUI suspect.

The driver is high as a kite, ran a stop sign, but kept it between the lines?  Please.
 
2013-08-05 12:45:09 PM

MooseUpNorth: snocone: "Backfire" o, rly?
Most of you have never seen a backfire in your life. They went out of use in like 1970 when engine controls started their incremental climb.

Most recent one I remember was in 1991. A K-Car.


Been at least ten years for me, I think.  I guess if it was a young cop who called it in, partly excusable.
 
2013-08-05 12:52:33 PM

Bit'O'Gristle: Sucks to be them, but don't get all hopped up on drugs and run from the cops for hours, putting everyone's lives at risk, but nobody is saying anything about that. What if they had hit your wife and children while running from the cops in their car? And killed them? You probably wouldn't mind the cops firing them up then.


And if my aunt had a dick she'd be my uncle.

But cool story anyways.

Oink oink oink
 
2013-08-05 12:57:04 PM
"Ditched in the Mailbu!?"

"Oh, heinous!"

"That car's like your castle, man!"
 
2013-08-05 01:06:48 PM

gglibertine: Oh, for christ's sake, people. The victims were moronic scumbags who ran from the police, the cops were moronic scumbags who went all shock 'n awe on a couple of unarmed moronic scumbags.

I think in this case, we should all be able to agree that both sides were bad.


Surely. Because when the police violate the 5th, 6th and 14th Amendments it's not nearly as bad as, ya know.... running away. Surely.

/ Smart to run? Nope. But getting shot at 137 times while unarmed is a different animal in a different ballpark.
 
2013-08-05 01:08:01 PM

Frederick: Screw you Pamela Engel for a horribly written article.

I cant tell if there was four people shot or two people shot.

"The pair were shot at 137 times while in their car..."
"One suspect, 30-year-old Malissa Williams, was shot 24 times, and the other, 43-year-old Timothy Russell, was shot 23 times."


They were shot at 137 times but only struck the couple 47 times, meaning that 90 of their shots either missed or were fired in warning. I'm confused as to whether the cops should be berated for shooting an unarmed couple or for being such horrible marksmen.
 
2013-08-05 01:13:40 PM

PunGent: wolfpaq777: Russell might have fled from police initially, fueling the massive chase,. Toxicology results show that Russell was at the time of his death.  Williams was also high on cocaine and had marijuana in her system.

And nothing of value was lost.  fark people who drive under the influence.  I wish they'd all get shot.

Yeah...go read the actual links again.  NO proof they were "high"...and that's not a legal definition, anyway.
If there was, the cops would be shouting it from the rooftops.

You may be right, these two may be losers of the first degree...but that shouldn't be a death sentence.

We'd have to dig a LOT of graves, in that case :)


Either they were or they weren't.  If they were, I'm glad they got shot.

I'm not "hoping" they were under the influence or arguing that they were, I just farking hate assholes who drive under the influence.  The article mentioned that they were thus my comment.
 
2013-08-05 01:14:39 PM

NickelP: NutWrench: vladimpaler: "innocent couple"?

Innocent people are not high on cocaine, driving on an suspended license, and running from the police.

Innocent people don't file false information on official documents either, but they seem to keep getting away with it.
Remember that the next time a cop decides to fark up your day just for the fun of it.

I will agree with this. Id like to hear more details on what false information was provided.


As TFA notes...they lied to the dispatcher.

RTFA.
 
2013-08-05 01:14:53 PM
In Cleveland's defense, it hasn't started snowing yet and we're already into Aug. (although we did come very close to a frost last night) Plus, housing prices have jumped from an averge of $40 to $140 on ababdoned homes (which make up 35% of the sales within the city. And we haven't had a major hurricane hit for more than 10 years! Unemployment is down to 17% and aveage household income is up to 16k.
All in all Cleveland's a lump, plump, dump, plum! You can take your chances on a warm, high income, vibrant locale; me I'll take Cleveland where the weather is immune from catasrophies other than ice storms, straight-line winds, flodding from weeks of rain, blizzards and the occasional mass suicide from six months of no sunny days.
 
2013-08-05 01:21:01 PM

NutWrench: Nineteen of the 75 officers facing discipline for offenses ranging from engaging in a chase without permission to providing false information on police reports will have disciplinary hearings and might be suspended temporarily, according to The Plain Dealer.

Fark you!

Ever wonder where these "cop hate" thread come from? Well, here you go.


I'd wager that quite a few cops are upset when things like this happen, too. I know my father (former cop) is always ticked when he sees it. Bad cops make it harder for good cops to do their jobs.
 
2013-08-05 01:27:05 PM
I pretty much just came here for the storm trooper jokes. Leaving satisfied.
 
2013-08-05 01:38:28 PM
I needed to know what ethnicity they were before I could be compelled to care. I have since found that the couple in question were black, thus clearly suspicious. So suspicious that they had to be fired upon over 100 times. Can't be too careful, you know. One of them might have sprang forth from the car and tried to beat up one of the armed officers. It's the Zimmerman Standard. Well, the Zimmerman Standard Pro (as it involves actual law enforcement, not a random dipshiat with a gun).
 
2013-08-05 01:49:29 PM

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: Bit'O'Gristle: Sucks to be them, but don't get all hopped up on drugs and run from the cops for hours, putting everyone's lives at risk, but nobody is saying anything about that. What if they had hit your wife and children while running from the cops in their car? And killed them? You probably wouldn't mind the cops firing them up then.

Yeah, that's a great way to look at it.  That never happened but if it did happen we sure would feel this way about that!  Wait....wtf was your point?


Don't mind Bit'OGristle - he's a cop himself, so his point is the same as always  - cops can do no wrong. You'll find him in every police misconduct thread, defending any and all police actions while slandering and disparaging the wrongly arrested/injured/murdered civilians in the story.

/This is the third time I've seen this assclown rationalize extrajudicial execution.
//assclown
///A_S_S_C_L_O_W_N
 
2013-08-05 01:50:15 PM
What was running through the thick-skulled and overzealous copper's "brains":  'Dispatch said we gonna bag some big criminals.  We gonna be famous!!!"

assets.nydailynews.com

Favorite quote from article, "Officers told investigators they saw the suspects in the car with what looked like a gun."  Which is police code for anything visible to the naked eye.
 
2013-08-05 01:51:11 PM
BTW, Faye Dunaway is the hottest criminal of all time
 
2013-08-05 02:04:16 PM
For the record, that's 30 fewer bullets than the 167 bullets that were fired at Bonnie & Clyde, who were armed, most definitely and distinctly.

Yes, some people just Google the picture and leave it hanging there for you to draw your own conclusions, but Brantgoose gets you the hard numbers, thanks to the Channel 6 News Team and Cherry Cola, both of which Brantgoose hates with a passion.
 
2013-08-05 02:11:27 PM
Nineteen of the 75 officers facingdiscipline for offenses ranging from engaging in a chase without permission to providing false information on police reports will have disciplinary hearings and might be suspended temporarily, according to The Plain Dealer.

...Suspended temporarily for joining a police chase without permission? You are therefore leaving your patrol and using department resources unnecessarily as well as complicating the direction of other resources which is possibly dangerous during high speed pursuits. There were sixty vehicles in the end; not as though you are an action hero who won't let the perp get away. Then to provide false information on the report.

Sh*t needs to happen there.
 
2013-08-05 02:23:24 PM

NutWrench: Nineteen of the 75 officers facing discipline for offenses ranging from engaging in a chase without permission to providing false information on police reports will have disciplinary hearings and might be suspended temporarily, according to The Plain Dealer.

Fark you!

Ever wonder where these "cop hate" thread come from? Well, here you go.


Vangor: Nineteen of the 75 officers facingdiscipline for offenses ranging from engaging in a chase without permission to providing false information on police reports will have disciplinary hearings and might be suspended temporarily, according to The Plain Dealer.

...Suspended temporarily for joining a police chase without permission? You are therefore leaving your patrol and using department resources unnecessarily as well as complicating the direction of other resources which is possibly dangerous during high speed pursuits. There were sixty vehicles in the end; not as though you are an action hero who won't let the perp get away. Then to provide false information on the report.

Sh*t needs to happen there.


If ever I saw a cop face justice, I'd stop instantly hating all cops.
 
2013-08-05 03:05:13 PM

PunGent: They charge 'em with DUI? there ya go.


Yes, they charged a dead man with DUI. WTF is wrong with you?

PunGent: Actually, those reporters may have set themselves up for a serious slander/libel suit, unless the tox screen backs them up. The cops didn't allege weaving, which you'd expect from a DUI suspect.


In other words, not only do you have no citation for your claim of "trace" intoxicants, a claim in direct contradiction to the claim made by the people reporting from closer to the story and with more access to the evidence than you, you actually made up the words you put in quotes?

snocone: Did we maybe check 75 cops' blood for cocaine and MJ?


What would that have to do with anything? Would that make the driver less drunk and/or high if the cops were also on dope?
 
2013-08-05 03:09:56 PM
IMHO, the use of deadly force has gotten WAY out of hand, along with such ass-hattery as using SWAT units to serve misdemeanor warrants and such.

I think any time a cop fires his/her weapon, it's an automatic one-month admin leave on half-pay.  Is the cop more interested in blazing away or keeping half their paycheck?  I suspect most would hold their fire until the situation trulybecame one of life-or-death.

Yeah, the guy ran, but having 60+ vehicles chasing him, along with 90 rounds unaccounted for, posed a SIGNIFICANTLY greater danger than simply letting them go.  I'm guessing they got the tag number; they can drop by some morning while the 2 are still sleeping it off and pick them up.
 
2013-08-05 03:12:46 PM
No it was suicide, they jumped in front of those bullets.
 
2013-08-05 03:25:35 PM

JerkyMeat: America is a farking nightmare.  It deserves the worse the world can offer.


Do you know how I know you don't travel or read the news?
 
2013-08-05 03:44:32 PM
The discipline for not following procedures and/or lying--good.  Cops need to abide by the rules they are told to follow.

Basically no trouble for shooting the two losers?  Fine by me.  The more repeat offenders off the streets the better.
 
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