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(Yahoo)   Perfessor say the kidzz no longger needs to learn the spelling and that grammarica stuff because of ur phones is smart enuff   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 137
    More: Dumbass, educational technology, multiplication tables, Newcastle University  
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4245 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Aug 2013 at 6:27 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-04 07:29:51 PM  
The problem is that autocorrect only works if you're close enough to the right word for it to figure out what you meant.
 
2013-08-04 07:30:09 PM  

werty789: The English language needs an overhaul. Modern English is a cobbled together language made up of bits and pieces of many languages. Spelling English is difficult because there are no set rules. English spelling rules all go something like this: Rule, and now the exceptions. I was able to spell in my High School German class better than my English class because all the German spelling followed the rules.


So u iz natsy...hau kuut.
 
2013-08-04 07:30:10 PM  
Typos on a message board are one thing.  They're nothing more than a result of being careless, and there is no reason to expect people to put some great quantity of care into their online goofing off.  We can usually make sense of what was written, though, because our minds correct the errors (sometimes without us even noticing).  We can do this because we know the correct way to write.

Grammar is even more important than spelling.  It's nice to be able to communicate complicated ideas.  Making a particularly bad grammatical error at a critical time can make a sentence unclear or, worse, make it seem as if it means something it was not intended to mean.  I run into this problem all the time when I have to attempt to read stuff written by Chinese colleagues (though they tend to be better with written English than most of the American and Canadian undergrads I have encountered).  More than once, a misconception brought on by a grammatical error has led to me spending over a day wrestling with an idea that turned out to be completely wrong.


While it's supposedly a myth that kids are getting dumber and dumber, it certainly seems to me that their  writing is getting worse and worse.  A few semesters as a teaching assistant for a college class with essays, compared with my memories of high school, taught me that.  It seems plausible, too.  When I was young, I wrote everything by hand.  The only time I used a computer in high school was in programming class.  I wrote my college applications with a typewriter.  I didn't use technology as a crutch; I had to fix my writing on my own.  Today, kids don't write anything.  Saying that they'll be just fine without learning to write is like saying I can look like Arnold Schwarzenegger without ever going to the gym.

The article mentions calculators, too.  Kids need to be banned from using those.  Every time I run across a college kid who can't do the kind of arithmetic I mastered in fourth grade, I die a little inside.
 
2013-08-04 07:30:36 PM  
Actually, it's no worse than some emails I've seen from people who came to the US for grad school or jobs...why should we waste our time in the US teaching our students to spell and put together a coherent sentence when employers don't care if their competition can?
 
2013-08-04 07:31:23 PM  
But ... but ... it's fresh and creative!!  Sarah Palin said so!  Don't argue with a Journalism major!

/or iz dat kreeatuv?
//jurnulizm mager?
 
2013-08-04 07:32:01 PM  

davidphogan: The problem is that autocorrect only works if you're close enough to the right word for it to figure out what you meant.


Oddly enough, that's what makes it so infuriating sometimes. You know, for those of us who care...
 
2013-08-04 07:33:39 PM  

timbrr_wolf: My daughter is going into the 2nd grade, the school is not going to be teaching her "handwriting" because they say she wont need or use it.  The teachers are are also not worried about her spelling in stories that she writes.  When i asked them about this, they said that most things are written on computers and she won't need to worry about.  Thank God for public education.


Thank God for idiot parents that don't take a stand against board of education administration morans.
 
2013-08-04 07:35:23 PM  

Jabberwookiee: davidphogan: The problem is that autocorrect only works if you're close enough to the right word for it to figure out what you meant.

Oddly enough, that's what makes it so infuriating sometimes. You know, for those of us who care...


Sometimes is awesome though. My favorite typo was instead of "fire marshal" I posted "fire narwhal".
 
2013-08-04 07:35:45 PM  
I work for one the largest telecommunications companies in the US and I am amazed on how our new hires cannot spell or speak.

Oddly enough I applied for a a new job within the company and I was given a battery of of language tests in English and Spanish.
 
2013-08-04 07:36:43 PM  
I had one teacher in all of K-12 who taught grammar, and she was amazing at it. We diagrammed sentences and learned all the parts of speech. The problem was that it was just that one semester in 8th grade. The reason teachers don't teach students how to write well is that they don't know how to write well. Even in college, I find that good writing is hard to find. I had a college professor at a prestigious university force us to never use the passive voice. She must have heard that somewhere along the way, but it made for very awkward writing to never use passive voice. I had a 12th grade AP English teacher who would not believe me when I told her that English had a subjunctive case (e.g., "I wish that you were there," "It's important that you be there").

On the other hand, I've heard tale of students who not only learn how to diagram sentences but then use that knowledge to write better sentences. That is a bridge I have not crossed. I don't even know what a class like that is called. But I would like to take it. I got AP credit for my college's introductory writing class, and past that they offer no classes in writing-and it shows when you look at their web-site (a lot of poorly written copy).
 
2013-08-04 07:37:30 PM  
Firstly.
 
2013-08-04 07:38:00 PM  
Because spell check knows when you meant to use your/you're.

WTF.
 
2013-08-04 07:39:08 PM  

timbrr_wolf: My daughter is going into the 2nd grade, the school is not going to be teaching her "handwriting" because they say she wont need or use it.  The teachers are are also not worried about her spelling in stories that she writes.  When i asked them about this, they said that most things are written on computers and she won't need to worry about.  Thank God for public education.


Seriously?

If I have to, I'll teach my daughter to write on my own (once she's old enough), but that takes a lot of time and effort, and I'm probably already going to be spending a lot of my time teaching her to do math the right way.  There's a reason schools are supposed to teach that sort of thing.
 
2013-08-04 07:41:08 PM  
A tech professor from India WOULD say that.

If quants come to the US and can't speak English without sounding like they're choking, then that belies the "excellent verbal and written language skills" listed on job descriptions.

Corporations and financial houses should persuade governments to ban all classes they don't respect: most of us are serfs just doing their bidding anyway.  "Free To Choose" is a myth.
 
2013-08-04 07:44:34 PM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: A world where every novel reads like a Damn You Autocorrect entry is not one in which I am wont to live.


I am want to live. :D
 
2013-08-04 07:44:36 PM  

red5ish: werty789: The English language needs an overhaul. Modern English is a cobbled together language made up of bits and pieces of many languages. Spelling English is difficult because there are no set rules. English spelling rules all go something like this: Rule, and now the exceptions. I was able to spell in my High School German class better than my English class because all the German spelling followed the rules.

Good idea. You get right on that; I'll be over here laughing. I had the same idea when I was taking German in High School. I have a theory about German teachers that involves them all telling their students about how superior German spelling is to English spelling. What they fail to mention is the problem with compound nouns.


/Der Geschirrspülmaschine
//(checking dictionary)
///misremembered only the article (die)
////high school German wins
//long compound nouns suck
 
2013-08-04 07:44:52 PM  
red5ish
Good idea. You get right on that; I'll be over here laughing. I had the same idea when I was taking German in High School. I have a theory about German teachers that involves them all telling their students about how superior German spelling is to English spelling. What they fail to mention is the problem with compound nouns.


Was ist dieses Zusammengesetztenomenproblem?
 
2013-08-04 07:44:53 PM  

robohobo: [media.kgw.com image 470x264]
/crybaby jeopardy kid misspells his agreement


I agree with him.

and her.

/progress is a biatch.
 
2013-08-04 07:47:33 PM  

timbrr_wolf: My daughter is going into the 2nd grade, the school is not going to be teaching her "handwriting" because they say she wont need or use it.  The teachers are are also not worried about her spelling in stories that she writes.  When i asked them about this, they said that most things are written on computers and she won't need to worry about.  Thank God for public education.



Bears repeating then:

www.rottenecards.com
 
2013-08-04 07:48:14 PM  

lifeboat: Bedstead Polisher: Semi-related: I heard one of the upper managers at work say the other day, "are we in agreeance?"

What's wrong with agreeance? It's a perfectly cromulent word.


So while there is no rule preventing the formation agree + -ance, the coinage may sound quaint or pretentious to some people.
It also puts the origins at almost 500 years ago so it's not a new thing. Personally I think it sounds stupid especially when I see no difference between that and agreement.
 
2013-08-04 07:48:46 PM  

werty789: The English language needs an overhaul. Modern English is a cobbled together language made up of bits and pieces of many languages. Spelling English is difficult because there are no set rules. English spelling rules all go something like this: Rule, and now the exceptions. I was able to spell in my High School German class better than my English class because all the German spelling followed the rules.


English is far from unique in this regard.
 
2013-08-04 07:49:47 PM  

The Voice of Doom: red5ish
Good idea. You get right on that; I'll be over here laughing. I had the same idea when I was taking German in High School. I have a theory about German teachers that involves them all telling their students about how superior German spelling is to English spelling. What they fail to mention is the problem with compound nouns.

Was ist dieses Zusammengesetztenomenproblem?


I'll bet you've got a real Backpfeifengesicht...
 
2013-08-04 07:50:24 PM  

MrHappyRotter: [insert gratuitusley misspelled comment here]


You fail. You spelled "misspelled" right.
 
2013-08-04 07:52:07 PM  

Cybernetic: This article proves that one can be a professor and still be an idiot.


Well, he did manage to set up a gloryhole experiment in India. So you know he's a happy idiot.
 
2013-08-04 07:54:37 PM  
Grammar: The difference between knowing you're shiat... and knowing your shiat.

And knowing yore shiat... I guess.
 
2013-08-04 07:54:56 PM  

Gyrfalcon: MrHappyRotter: [insert gratuitusley misspelled comment here]

You fail. You spelled "misspelled" right.


There's a pet peeve in there somewhere
 
2013-08-04 07:55:41 PM  

hitlersbrain: Actually, spelling is so farked up that "learning" it is probably bad for a kids brain anyway. There's more important stuff to learn, like critical thinking, math and science.


Critical thinking without a grasp of grammar and syntax is kind of hard.
 
2013-08-04 07:55:45 PM  
Hooked on Phonics has ruined generations of kids.  Especially when you consider English is not the most phonetic langauge on the planet.
 
2013-08-04 07:56:23 PM  

hitlersbrain: Actually, spelling is so farked up that "learning" it is probably bad for a kids brain anyway. There's more important stuff to learn, like critical thinking, math and science.


The funny thing is, many of the people apparently baffled by the English system of measurements are just fine with the English system of spelling and grammar, which may I point out is a damn sight more confusing.

/Nothing against the metric system, which was state-of-the-art for the 18th century, but can we fix the most confusing spelling and grammar rules, too? Though, through, cough, rough, plough, ought, borough -- come on, you are going to give little kids an aneurysm.
 
2013-08-04 07:59:30 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Grammar: The difference between knowing you're shiat... and knowing your shiat.

And knowing yore shiat... I guess.


That would be "shiat of yore".
 
2013-08-04 08:01:30 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Pray 4 Mojo: Grammar: The difference between knowing you're shiat... and knowing your shiat.

And knowing yore shiat... I guess.

That would be "shiat of yore".


Ye Olde Shiat, if you will.
 
2013-08-04 08:01:54 PM  
Jabberwookiee
I'll bet you've got a real Backpfeifengesicht...


The funny thing about "Backpfeifengesicht" is how is has become Internet-famous during the last one or two years.
I don't think I've ever heard it used in Germany outside of that Ärzte song.

If you search for it on google.de with "-ärzte" and restrict it to pages in German, you get like just 3000 hits and the first page is all dictionaries and a couple of of forums where people are asking about the meaning of the word.
 
2013-08-04 08:03:25 PM  
Wee don't kneed education wen wee have dictionary.com too due hour werk!


i651.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-04 08:03:47 PM  

davidphogan: The problem is that autocorrect only works if you're close enough to the right word for it to figure out what you meant.


Autocorrect also learns so if someone "uncorrects" the word enough time the phone/app learns the new spelling and won't correct it any longer. As a tech coordinator at an elementary school I had to fight tooth and nail to disable spell check on the iPads and in Microsoft Office. Teachers were pissed.
 
2013-08-04 08:07:47 PM  

The Voice of Doom: Jabberwookiee
I'll bet you've got a real Backpfeifengesicht...

The funny thing about "Backpfeifengesicht" is how is has become Internet-famous during the last one or two years.
I don't think I've ever heard it used in Germany outside of that Ärzte song.

If you search for it on google.de with "-ärzte" and restrict it to pages in German, you get like just 3000 hits and the first page is all dictionaries and a couple of of forums where people are asking about the meaning of the word.


Yeah, I was kind of worried about that. I took a few German courses in high school and college, but that was a long time ago. At least I can order a beer. Maybe ask for directions.

/what the fark is the internet
//should have done a study abroad program
///so much for being clever
 
2013-08-04 08:10:19 PM  
For those who consider English spelling too random and difficult, consider Japanese. There are multiple, correct ways of writing pretty much everything.

Sushi:

すし (plain syllabic)
スシ (different plain syllabic, more forceful)
寿司 (most common)
壽司 (same as above, but using traditional characters; more hoity-toity)
鮨 (Single character, emphasizing and chosen for its relation to 酢, vinegar)
鮨 (Single character, emphasizing the ageing process)

"To take"

取る (something)
撮る (a picture)
採る (a fruit from a tree)
捕る (a living thing under confinement)
執る (firmly, not letting go)
摂る (nutrition)
獲る (forcefully)
盗る (illegally, the property of another)

All the above are pronounced the same way: toru, because it's the same basic verb.

Compound verbs

Example: 陥れる (Otoshii・reru; to plunge, to drive in)
or: 落とし入れる (Same word, but spelled with its component parts: Otosu; to let go, to drop, and ireru; to insert)

Inflection deletion

Most people have heard of yaki-tori. It comes from "roasted fowl". The root word, yaku, is written 焼く. In its connective form: 焼き (yaki). So, most properly, one should write yaki tori as 焼き鳥, but the き inflection is usually understood and therefore deleted: 焼鳥.

There's even more crazy shiat, but that's a good primer.

Fun language, eh?
 
2013-08-04 08:16:07 PM  

Snarfangel: hitlersbrain: Actually, spelling is so farked up that "learning" it is probably bad for a kids brain anyway. There's more important stuff to learn, like critical thinking, math and science.

The funny thing is, many of the people apparently baffled by the English system of measurements are just fine with the English system of spelling and grammar, which may I point out is a damn sight more confusing.

/Nothing against the metric system, which was state-of-the-art for the 18th century, but can we fix the most confusing spelling and grammar rules, too? Though, through, cough, rough, plough, ought, borough -- come on, you are going to give little kids an aneurysm.


The metric system is more mathematically precise than the Standard English system. It makes calculations much simpler when dealing with stress forces, chemicals, weights, diameters etc. Any engineer worth a damn is going to do all the work in Metric.

Of course, that means the Germans and the Japanese tend to shoehorn their engine compartments like the inside of a Piano Makers toolbox.

www.phoenixmasonry.org
 
2013-08-04 08:19:40 PM  

aagrajag: For those who consider English spelling too random and difficult, consider Japanese. There are multiple, correct ways of writing pretty much everything.

Sushi:

すし (plain syllabic)
スシ (different plain syllabic, more forceful)
寿司 (most common)
壽司 (same as above, but using traditional characters; more hoity-toity)
鮨 (Single character, emphasizing and chosen for its relation to 酢, vinegar)
鮨 (Single character, emphasizing the ageing process)

"To take"

取る (something)
撮る (a picture)
採る (a fruit from a tree)
捕る (a living thing under confinement)
執る (firmly, not letting go)
摂る (nutrition)
獲る (forcefully)
盗る (illegally, the property of another)

All the above are pronounced the same way: toru, because it's the same basic verb.

Compound verbs

Example: 陥れる (Otoshii・reru; to plunge, to drive in)
or: 落とし入れる (Same word, but spelled with its component parts: Otosu; to let go, to drop, and ireru; to insert)

Inflection deletion

Most people have heard of yaki-tori. It comes from "roasted fowl". The root word, yaku, is written 焼く. In its connective form: 焼き (yaki). So, most properly, one should write yaki tori as 焼き鳥, but the き inflection is usually understood and therefore deleted: 焼鳥.

There's even more crazy shiat, but that's a good primer.

Fun language, eh?


Not that anyone cares, but the second-to-last sushi character should be: 鮓
 
2013-08-04 08:37:48 PM  
You can't build a decent house without a good foundation
 
2013-08-04 08:42:19 PM  
Every time I hear a professor spout off like this, and realize that he probably gets tenure and will continue to get paid to be a moron, I die a little inside.

Colleges are scams.
 
2013-08-04 08:51:37 PM  

optional: Every time I hear a professor spout off like this, and realize that he probably gets tenure and will continue to get paid to be a moron, I die a little inside.

Colleges are scams.


But if the colleges are scams, and businesses require colleges degrees for professionals, then...

i.imgur.com
 
2013-08-04 08:53:04 PM  

optional: Every time I hear a professor spout off like this, and realize that he probably gets tenure and will continue to get paid to be a moron, I die a little inside.

Colleges are scams.


I tend to agree with you. I teach at a small college and have followed Mitra's work for a while. But he has just said some jack arse things over the years. "Why remember it when you can google it?" And the like.

I feel like a few key policy drivers like him might take down any good system of learning.
 
2013-08-04 08:59:23 PM  

aagrajag: For those who consider English spelling too random and difficult, consider Japanese. There are multiple, correct ways of writing pretty much everything.

Sushi:

すし (plain syllabic)
スシ (different plain syllabic, more forceful)
寿司 (most common)
壽司 (same as above, but using traditional characters; more hoity-toity)
鮨 (Single character, emphasizing and chosen for its relation to 酢, vinegar)
鮨 (Single character, emphasizing the ageing process)

"To take"

取る (something)
撮る (a picture)
採る (a fruit from a tree)
捕る (a living thing under confinement)
執る (firmly, not letting go)
摂る (nutrition)
獲る (forcefully)
盗る (illegally, the property of another)

All the above are pronounced the same way: toru, because it's the same basic verb.

Compound verbs

Example: 陥れる (Otoshii・reru; to plunge, to drive in)
or: 落とし入れる (Same word, but spelled with its component parts: Otosu; to let go, to drop, and ireru; to insert)

Inflection deletion

Most people have heard of yaki-tori. It comes from "roasted fowl". The root word, yaku, is written 焼く. In its connective form: 焼き (yaki). So, most properly, one should write yaki tori as 焼き鳥, but the き inflection is usually understood and therefore deleted: 焼鳥.

There's even more crazy shiat, but that's a good primer.

Fun language, eh?


And this is why I'll never bother to learn the moon runes.
 
2013-08-04 09:05:58 PM  
"Standardized" English is not really a thing, the language changes as it goes along. Accepted spellings and even the accepted way to shape the letters of our alphabet have changed pretty dramatically. Why not expect things to change further?
 
2013-08-04 09:11:58 PM  

Arumat: aagrajag: For those who consider English spelling too random and difficult, consider Japanese. There are multiple, correct ways of writing pretty much everything.

Sushi:

すし (plain syllabic)
スシ (different plain syllabic, more forceful)
寿司 (most common)
壽司 (same as above, but using traditional characters; more hoity-toity)
鮨 (Single character, emphasizing and chosen for its relation to 酢, vinegar)
鮨 (Single character, emphasizing the ageing process)

"To take"

取る (something)
撮る (a picture)
採る (a fruit from a tree)
捕る (a living thing under confinement)
執る (firmly, not letting go)
摂る (nutrition)
獲る (forcefully)
盗る (illegally, the property of another)

All the above are pronounced the same way: toru, because it's the same basic verb.

Compound verbs

Example: 陥れる (Otoshii・reru; to plunge, to drive in)
or: 落とし入れる (Same word, but spelled with its component parts: Otosu; to let go, to drop, and ireru; to insert)

Inflection deletion

Most people have heard of yaki-tori. It comes from "roasted fowl". The root word, yaku, is written 焼く. In its connective form: 焼き (yaki). So, most properly, one should write yaki tori as 焼き鳥, but the き inflection is usually understood and therefore deleted: 焼鳥.

There's even more crazy shiat, but that's a good primer.

Fun language, eh?

And this is why I'll never bother to learn the moon runes.


A great deal of beauty springs from that complexity, but yeah, I don't see Japanese becoming an international language.
 
2013-08-04 09:23:57 PM  

UsikFark: "Standardized" English is not really a thing, the language changes as it goes along. Accepted spellings and even the accepted way to shape the letters of our alphabet have changed pretty dramatically. Why not expect things to change further?


Get the fark out of here with your descriptive linguistics. We're all about prescribing proper grammar and spelling up in this biatch.
 
2013-08-04 09:35:02 PM  
The problem is that the dictionaries on the phones and tablets doesn't have any idea of certain technical and medical terms. Pretty annoying and I get tired of having to add correctly spelled items to the dictionary. It's true even on Firefox, Word, and many other applications. They were not written for technical terminology.
 
2013-08-04 09:40:28 PM  

Jabberwookiee: UsikFark: "Standardized" English is not really a thing, the language changes as it goes along. Accepted spellings and even the accepted way to shape the letters of our alphabet have changed pretty dramatically. Why not expect things to change further?

Get the fark out of here with your descriptive linguistics. We're all about prescribing proper grammar and spelling up in this biatch.


"Up in this" will be next century's Olde Poetic Seaying.
 
2013-08-04 09:44:31 PM  

UsikFark: Jabberwookiee: UsikFark: "Standardized" English is not really a thing, the language changes as it goes along. Accepted spellings and even the accepted way to shape the letters of our alphabet have changed pretty dramatically. Why not expect things to change further?

Get the fark out of here with your descriptive linguistics. We're all about prescribing proper grammar and spelling up in this biatch.

"Up in this" will be next century's Olde Poetic Seaying.


And with regard to the particular challenges up in this biatch, the industry must address the reality that shiat be all like highly protean, no wham sane, ladies and gentlemen.
 
2013-08-04 09:44:43 PM  
I taught high school English for 5 years.  In each grade 3/4 of the class was literature and writing skills.  1/4 of the class was parts of speech, punctuation, grammar and diagramming.  By graduation, my kids knew grammar, how to write, how to analyze, and some even learned the dark secrets of diagramming.  I actually use diagramming.  I edit my husband's novels and he often uses complex sentences with some really crappy punctuation.  (And he was an English major, too).  I often need to diagram the sentence in my head to figure out how many commas to toss out and what goes in where.

My 12th grade English teacher asked the class to give an example of a pronoun.  Everyone sat there with a blank look.  I asked, "What case?"  She could not grasp that pronouns had case.  I learned that back in 7th grade.
 
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