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(PBS)   It turns out that eliminating your state's income tax doesn't do squat for growth, but it does punish poor people, so there's that   (pbs.org) divider line 183
    More: Obvious, Arthur Laffer, Reagan White House, income taxes, Martin Feldstein, economic growths, per capita incomes, inflection points, Emmanuel Saez  
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4863 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Aug 2013 at 4:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-04 11:22:18 AM
Because an opinion piece based on a couple of strawman conversations is "obvious"...
 
2013-08-04 12:01:24 PM

LordZorch: Because an opinion piece based on a couple of strawman conversations is "obvious"...


Well, if the counter-argument is from Arthur Laffer, you can easily say yes, it is obvious. Guy's a f*cking toolbox.
 
2013-08-04 02:25:59 PM
Because no company has relocated from CA to Texas.....
 
2013-08-04 02:36:57 PM

EnviroDude: Because no company has relocated from CA to Texas.....


That might have more to do with way less pesky and expen$ive regulation safety and environment wise.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-04 03:22:10 PM

sno man: EnviroDude: Because no company has relocated from CA to Texas.....

That might have more to do with way less pesky and expen$ive regulation safety and environment wise.


Or lower wages.
 
2013-08-04 04:14:19 PM

sno man: EnviroDude: Because no company has relocated from CA to Texas.....

That might have more to do with way less pesky and expen$ive regulation safety and environment wise.


Businesses in Texas are booming I hear.

/Regulation is only expensive until your business goes BOOM
 
2013-08-04 04:14:20 PM
Oh, lookie here:

TFA: Paul's interview begins with Laffer offering himself and his family as a data point for the proposition that taxes, in this case, state income taxes, matter. He claims his family moved from California to Tennessee exclusively because of taxes; they would not have moved unless Tennessee had zero income tax. Of course, budgets being what they are, the lack of an income tax has other implications -- something has to give.

In Tennessee's case, one thing that gives is that it has the highest combined state and local retail sales tax rate in the United States: 9.45 percent, according to the Tax Foundation. That the sales tax rate in Tennessee did not figure prominently in the Laffer residence's decision to move suggests something about the family's projected mix of income and consumption, and many others would undoubtedly weight the sales tax rate relatively more than he does.


In other words, it's okay for the state to rape you at the cash register, just as long as you don't have to file an income tax, which is nothing but theft and state-sponsored bullying. Something something penny wise something something pound foolish.
 
2013-08-04 04:15:09 PM

sno man: EnviroDude: Because no company has relocated from CA to Texas.....

That might have more to do with way less pesky and expen$ive regulation safety and environment wise.


Boy, do I have a deal on a fertilizer plant for you!
 
2013-08-04 04:18:12 PM

theorellior: sno man: EnviroDude: Because no company has relocated from CA to Texas.....

That might have more to do with way less pesky and expen$ive regulation safety and environment wise.

Boy, do I have a deal on a fertilizer plant for you!


exactly!
 
2013-08-04 04:20:49 PM

vpb: sno man: EnviroDude: Because no company has relocated from CA to Texas.....

That might have more to do with way less pesky and expen$ive regulation safety and environment wise.

Or lower wages.


Or, EXCATLY WTF'ing article is talking about, gasbag.
 
2013-08-04 04:23:33 PM
So you pulled the 'punish poor people' out of your ass?  good job.

You'd still rather start your own business in Texas than California.
 
2013-08-04 04:23:43 PM

vpb: sno man: EnviroDude: Because no company has relocated from CA to Texas.....

That might have more to do with way less pesky and expen$ive regulation safety and environment wise.

Or lower wages.




So when the managers and execs pick up from Sacramento and move to Houston, the elimination of 10% taxes has nothing to do with it? Looks like a cheap increase in pay.
 
2013-08-04 04:24:37 PM

vpb: sno man: EnviroDude: Because no company has relocated from CA to Texas.....

That might have more to do with way less pesky and expen$ive regulation safety and environment wise.

Or lower wages.


And lower wages, yes.

And lower corporate taxes, and probably property tax breaks for companies that move there..

The point being the personal state income tax would have very little to do with a company's decision to move to a non or lower income tax state.
 
2013-08-04 04:25:54 PM
Sales taxes are regressive on the poor.

Here in WA, we don't have a state income tax. That's a bad move for such a progressive state. King County sales taxes hover around 9.5% - way too much for people in lower income brackets. It's ridiculous. We had a limited state income tax a couple years ago on the ballot. It would have only been on higher income folks, but it got shot down. I voted for it, and I would vote for a state income tax on myself (I make about 70K a year, so I'm well off, but not exactly wealthy) if it meant that sales taxes went down by 3% or so.
 
2013-08-04 04:27:15 PM

RobertBruce: You'd still rather start your own business in Texas than California.


No, because that would mean I'd have to live in Texas.
 
2013-08-04 04:27:31 PM

EnviroDude: vpb: sno man: EnviroDude: Because no company has relocated from CA to Texas.....

That might have more to do with way less pesky and expen$ive regulation safety and environment wise.

Or lower wages.

So when the managers and execs pick up from Sacramento and move to Houston, the elimination of 10% taxes has nothing to do with it? Looks like a cheap increase in pay.


When was the last time a corporation gave a shiat about anyone that works for them other than maybe the board and the CEO?  They only care about the stock holders.  That may be enough of a perk for a manager to relocate, but from the company perspective who cares?
 
2013-08-04 04:29:43 PM

EnviroDude: So when the managers and execs pick up from Sacramento and move to Houston, the elimination of 10% taxes has nothing to do with it? Looks like a cheap increase in pay.


FTA: "When you ask business leaders to rank the top 10 factors in a business location decision, taxes often come out near the bottom of the list. But if you ask CEOs whether they make decisions based on pre-tax values or after-tax values, they look at you like you're crazy and say 'after-tax, of course.'"
 
2013-08-04 04:30:39 PM

RobertBruce: So you pulled the 'punish poor people' out of your ass?  good job.


It's simple math. Who do you thinks spends a greater percentage of their income on things that qualify for the sales tax - and thus a greater percentage of their income on the sales tax itself - Mr. Laffer and his family, or a single mother with two kids?

RobertBruce: You'd still rather start your own business in Texas than California.


Texas is great, if you need workers with few skills and little education.
 
2013-08-04 04:31:00 PM
More like when your home state votes down a 5% state income tax on people making more than 200K annually, it sends the message that there are indeed some greedy f*ckers living here.
 
2013-08-04 04:32:03 PM

dookdookdook: RobertBruce: You'd still rather start your own business in Texas than California.

No, because that would mean I'd have to live in Texas.


This.
 
2013-08-04 04:33:20 PM
So let's see.  Government media says that all states should have income taxes and it doesn't help anybody if they don't.  What a shocker.

Texas has no state income tax.  It leads the nation in job growth and liberals from the Rust Belt have been moving here since the early 80's - now joined by liberals from California and the east coast.
 
2013-08-04 04:35:35 PM
TLDR. Is this the old "states without income tax have higher sales tax" argument?

Sales tax is something I can control, income tax is not. Most necessities (food etc.) aren't taxed so if times are tough I can get by tax free for the most part. I can take advantage of tax free weekends to stock up on some items and I can also buy used and not pay sales tax. I would never live in a state that had an income tax.
 
2013-08-04 04:36:26 PM

Neighborhood Watch: Government media


i.imgur.com
 
2013-08-04 04:39:31 PM

ReapTheChaos: TLDR. Is this the old "states without income tax have higher sales tax" argument?


They also have higher property taxes. And higher fees. Basically, everything that the government charges you for is higher, because there's no EEEEEVIL income tax. But you can control all that, so it's A-OK.
 
2013-08-04 04:43:28 PM

ReapTheChaos: TLDR. Is this the old "states without income tax have higher sales tax" argument?

Sales tax is something I can control, income tax is not. Most necessities (food etc.) aren't taxed so if times are tough I can get by tax free for the most part. I can take advantage of tax free weekends to stock up on some items and I can also buy used and not pay sales tax. I would never live in a state that had an income tax.


Sounds like a fun hobby. Do you wait in lines at Walmart at 4am to save a few bucks on Black Friday, too?
 
2013-08-04 04:43:45 PM
Oh, and CSB time, when I moved from the libertarian paradise of Texas to good ole Taxachusetts, I was a little worried about the state income tax and how I would deal with the added burden. Turns out it's pretty damn cheap, and I get a lower sales tax, schools that are far farking better that Texas' ridiculous excuse for and education system, and I hear fewer people whining about bootstraps. Except from the New Hampshire people who commute 100 miles a day because they'd rather pay $500 a month in gas than pay a state income tax.

In short, people are retarded.
 
2013-08-04 04:44:20 PM

Neighborhood Watch: So let's see.  Government media says that all states should have income taxes and it doesn't help anybody if they don't.  What a shocker.

Texas has no state income tax.  It leads the nation in job growth and liberals from the Rust Belt have been moving here since the early 80's - now joined by liberals from California and the east coast.


And if I want an eight-dollar an hour job, I'll be sure to move to Texas.

I have lived in Texas. That state has some good tech jobs in Austin and some good oil jobs in Dallas and the like, but it's filled with minimum-wage jobs and terrible schools because the Board of Education isn't into teaching students actual facts.

And this is a state held up as the best of the states in the South! My goodness.
 
2013-08-04 04:44:25 PM

theorellior: They also have higher property taxes. And higher fees. Basically, everything that the government charges you for is higher, because there's no EEEEEVIL income tax. But you can control all that, so it's A-OK.


Silly lib, 'tis better to not own a house or a car and never buy anything except unprepared food while living in a Free State than to succumb to the tyranny of a 5% state income tax.
 
2013-08-04 04:44:52 PM
Why exactly are we trying to Maximize revenue to government?  Shoudn't it be the job of government to maximize the income of the citizens?
 
2013-08-04 04:47:17 PM

dookdookdook: Neighborhood Watch: Government media

[i.imgur.com image 320x216]


Why does he have captain americas shield mounted on the wall back there?
 
2013-08-04 04:47:55 PM

Kumana Wanalaia: ReapTheChaos: TLDR. Is this the old "states without income tax have higher sales tax" argument?

Sales tax is something I can control, income tax is not. Most necessities (food etc.) aren't taxed so if times are tough I can get by tax free for the most part. I can take advantage of tax free weekends to stock up on some items and I can also buy used and not pay sales tax. I would never live in a state that had an income tax.

Sounds like a fun hobby. Do you wait in lines at Walmart at 4am to save a few bucks on Black Friday, too?


Never done that, but judging by the reports on the news every year plenty of people do so I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to make.
 
2013-08-04 04:49:16 PM

o5iiawah: Shoudn't it be the job of government to maximize the income of the citizens?


So you're saying Texas should bus its students to a different state rather than try to educate them itself?
 
2013-08-04 04:50:12 PM
umm...Benghazi.......

yeah...Benghazi......that's the ticket
i1.ytimg.com


yup...I got nuttin here
 
2013-08-04 04:50:17 PM

EnviroDude: Because no company has relocated from CA to Texas.....


Everything is cheaper in Texas because, well, it is Texas.

California has hills, mountains, earthquakes, more limited water supplies, more expensive electricity and limited climate zones where people want to live (the coast is prohibitively expensive while people dislike living inland).  Texas is flat, has few earthquakes, has good access to water in central and eastern counties, has a more gradual climate change from east to west, and has cheaper utility costs.  All of that equates to a lower cost of living in Texas.

The more friendly business climate is just icing on the top.  The location costs and living costs are what drives a lot of companies to Texas.  It also drives them to Arizona, Nevada, Utah and Idaho.
 
2013-08-04 04:51:10 PM

theorellior: They also have higher property taxes. And higher fees. Basically, everything that the government charges you for is higher, because there's no EEEEEVIL income tax. But you can control all that, so it's A-OK.


Yes, because the cost of living in a place like New York is the same in a place like Florida.

i'm fine with a higher sales tax.  It punishes those who spend and encourages those who earn and save and with all of this nonsense about punishing the poor and what-not, most states have no sales tax on food, medicine and clothing - or at least they have sales holidays on clothes during certain times.  A lower income individual at least has control over how they spend their money and a lower income tax means that if they are judicious about how they spend, the tax wont hurt them too much.

An income tax simply takes it all up front regardless.
 
2013-08-04 04:52:49 PM

dookdookdook: So you're saying Texas should bus its students to a different state rather than try to educate them itself?


No, Texas should find funding to run its programs effectively, just as the US or any other state or county should look to do the same - take just enough taxes to run what it needs to run.  The more tax revenue that gets collected, the less people have to spend.  In a consumer and service economy that we have the more that is in people's pockets, the better.
 
2013-08-04 04:53:08 PM
TFA's original headline:
State Tax Cuts: Is Arthur Laffer All Wet?

Answer: Yes. Duh.
 
2013-08-04 04:53:10 PM

Smoking GNU: Why does he have captain americas shield mounted on the wall back there?


Captain America left it to Stephen in his will, so Stephen got it when CA  died in 2007.

yarly
 
2013-08-04 04:53:35 PM
I don't know that businesses are driven to Arizona. Except for Chandler, which is experiencing lots of growth in terms of tech companies, Arizona has always been a tourism-and-construction state, and with the Republicans in Maricopa County driving policies like SB 1070 (unfriendly to EVERYONE, not just businesses) on a consistent basis, that's how it'll stay.
 
2013-08-04 05:00:08 PM

o5iiawah: take just enough taxes to run what it needs to run.


So just to be clear then, education is not a "need", wildfire protection is not a "need", infrastructure is not a "need", etc. etc.

But tax cuts for millionaires?  You bet that's a "need".
 
2013-08-04 05:03:43 PM

Smelly McUgly: Sales taxes are regressive on the poor.

Here in WA, we don't have a state income tax. That's a bad move for such a progressive state. King County sales taxes hover around 9.5% - way too much for people in lower income brackets. It's ridiculous. We had a limited state income tax a couple years ago on the ballot. It would have only been on higher income folks, but it got shot down. I voted for it, and I would vote for a state income tax on myself (I make about 70K a year, so I'm well off, but not exactly wealthy) if it meant that sales taxes went down by 3% or so.


Yep, we voted for that, too. WA has shiatty infrastructure thanks to the lack if income tax.

Smoking GNU: dookdookdook: Neighborhood Watch: Government media

[i.imgur.com image 320x216]

Why does he have captain americas shield mounted on the wall back there?


I have a Captain America shield mounted to a wall in my office.

/nerd
 
2013-08-04 05:05:15 PM

RobertBruce: So you pulled the 'punish poor people' out of your ass?  good job.

You'd still rather start your own business in Texas than California.


Depends on what my business is. If it's something concerning oil or gas development, then definitely better to start in Texas because they have the infrastructure and the people to meet to get that business off the ground. But if it's high-tech, it's better to start in CA than TX. Whether it's better to stay in CA is another matter. Lastly, if you look at other small business like restaurants or service providing business, it's better to start in CA than TX. Your patrons will pay you more and you will be among other very interesting restaurants and interesting service providers.
 
2013-08-04 05:08:12 PM
it takes less than 10 words to stitch retardation into our economic policy, and an essay of 3000 words to show a small aspect of the retardation as what it is.

if somebody could figure a way to counter retardation with a doodle on a cocktail napkin, we might actually get somewhere.
 
2013-08-04 05:08:28 PM

o5iiawah: Why exactly are we trying to Maximize revenue to government?  Shoudn't it be the job of government to maximize the income of the citizens?


Generally, almost all money going into the government goes back out to the citizens. The government doesn't keep a store of money like businesses might. Getting money to churn is one of the roles of a government, by causing churn, wealth is created.
 
2013-08-04 05:10:22 PM

heap: if somebody could figure a way to counter retardation with a doodle on a cocktail napkin, we might actually get somewhere.


amidoinitrite?

images.sodahead.com
 
2013-08-04 05:11:18 PM

LordZorch: Because an opinion piece based on a couple of strawman conversations is "obvious"...


If by opinion piece you mean including citations:
http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/sites/default/files/docs/pdf/gradingpla ce s.pdf
http://www.itep.org/pdf/lafferhighrate.pdf
http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/diamond-saezJEP11opttax.pdf
and written by a guy who taught at Harvard.
 
2013-08-04 05:11:59 PM

dericwater: Getting money to churn is one of the roles of a government, by causing churn, wealth is created.



You don't 'create' wealth by dividing it.
 
2013-08-04 05:13:49 PM

dericwater: o5iiawah: Why exactly are we trying to Maximize revenue to government?  Shoudn't it be the job of government to maximize the income of the citizens?

Generally, almost all money going into the government goes back out to the citizens. The government doesn't keep a store of money like businesses might. Getting money to churn is one of the roles of a government, by causing churn, wealth is created.


You're wasting your time. He believes money vanishes from the economy once it's paid to government workers and contractors.
 
2013-08-04 05:13:56 PM

EnviroDude: Because no company has relocated from CA to Texas.....


It may have to do with the fact that your company can move to Texas and blow up an entire town and face little to no penalties on it. California may frown on murdering its citizens. Just saying.
 
2013-08-04 05:17:26 PM

theorellior: ReapTheChaos: TLDR. Is this the old "states without income tax have higher sales tax" argument?

They also have higher property taxes. And higher fees. Basically, everything that the government charges you for is higher, because there's no EEEEEVIL income tax. But you can control all that, so it's A-OK.


Here in Texas we do pay a pretty high property tax, but our actual property values are a lot lower. The cost of a decent home here wouldn't buy you a roach infested shiathole in a lot of states. Overall it works out cheaper.

Along those lines, I recall reading an article on those $500 houses you can buy in Detroit and I when I saw the yearly property tax I was shocked because it was higher than I pay for mortgage and tax in a year, yet Michigan property tax is lower than Texas.
 
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