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(BBC America)   Who will be the Twelfth Doctor? Exactly. More importantly, will The Doctor stay in Cleveland, or play for Miami next season? The Twelfth Doctor is revealed in Doctor Who: The Decision, live at 2 PM Eastern on BBC America   (bbcamerica.com) divider line 414
    More: Interesting, physicians, Eleventh Doctor, Doctor Who  
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3318 clicks; posted to Geek » on 04 Aug 2013 at 1:30 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-05 06:56:35 AM

if_i_really_have_to: ArcadianRefugee: CL: Can you change color? or are you always white?
DW: No, I can be anything.
DW: [is always a white guy]

According to Neil Gaiman the role has been offered to a black guy, and he turned it down.

So, basically, shut the fark up about shiat you don't know about?


Put down the crack pipe.

So, a black actor turned down the role, thus disproving that the role is always played by a white actor.

Your logic is impeccable.
 
2013-08-05 10:14:05 AM

bborchar: Hebalo: mafiageek1980: whizbangthedirtfarmer: You can tell the hipster fans from the actual fans. On Facebook a lot of the hipsters are saying things like "ew a grandpa doctor!!!" Meanwhile most of the real fans are exuberant.

\still no cure for Moffat

^This

That.

I love what Moffat has done.  Infinitely better than RTD.

/not sarcasm


Agreed. Moffat's story lines are better than RTD. His use of time and consequences add a great layer to an already great story.

RTD was good but moffat is a superior story teller.

And a lot of you don't know what a plot hole is. A plot hole is not something missing. A plot hole is where the plot directly contradicts itself. A see a lot of people in this thread claiming moffat has too many plot holes because they didn't see something on screen. That's not a plot hole. That just means it wasn't on screen.
 
2013-08-05 10:20:17 AM

100 Watt Walrus: bborchar: Hebalo: mafiageek1980: whizbangthedirtfarmer: You can tell the hipster fans from the actual fans. On Facebook a lot of the hipsters are saying things like "ew a grandpa doctor!!!" Meanwhile most of the real fans are exuberant.

\still no cure for Moffat

^This

That.

I love what Moffat has done.  Infinitely better than RTD.

/not sarcasm

I love what Moffat has done for the complexity of the narrative. I love his embracing of the wibbly-wobbly, and I like the increased complexity of the characters.

But he's gone off the rails. Series 7b was lifeless and disjointed. Even the Neil Gaiman episode stunk. Clara went from fascinating, sexy enigma to a bland everygirl whose personality changed with every script, and there was very little through-line for her arc. And, as noted above, it's just become clear that he doesn't give a damn if his stories make sense. Worse, in the last year or so, he's relinquished the complexity he brought to the series in favor of his stupid every-episode-as-a-movie-poster concept of plotting.

But I hope he will change direction once again with the 12th Doctor. I'll give him this: He's very good at changing tone and trajectory. I hope he and Capaldi return the show to the level of Series 5 (minus "Victory of the Daleks" and forgiving the ruining of the Angels) and Series 6 (forgiving the colossal, idiotic plot holes in "The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon").


That doesn't even make sense. You say you like the new complexities but then trash the impossible astronaut. Season 6 was Moffat's crowning moment. It kept everyone glued to the TV to see how the hell he was going to save the doctor from death. And let's give him some credit. He covered any major plot hole to the point where the story is congruent. People can at least plot all of season 6 on a time line and it makes sense. There are shows with gigantic plot issues but dr who season 6 was certainly not one of them.
 
2013-08-05 10:30:12 AM
We are through the looking glass. First there were complaints of Matt Smith being too young and now Peter Capaldi is too old. BS. Besides, this same crowd probably wanted a black/female/gay Doctor but now it's discriminating on age to boot?

I don't believe Capaldi is too old to play The Doctor. That said, the mean age for a new Doctor is 40, making Tom Baker, Colin Baker, and Chris Eccleston your average aged Doctors. Capaldi skews it to 42 once he starts. Might as well shoot for that with the 13th, but goddammit let's try not to talk about the 13th Doctor at all until Capaldi is officially stepping down.

And given the average run, we should be able to do just that by 2017.
 
2013-08-05 10:51:26 AM

enforcerpsu: bborchar: Hebalo: mafiageek1980: whizbangthedirtfarmer: You can tell the hipster fans from the actual fans. On Facebook a lot of the hipsters are saying things like "ew a grandpa doctor!!!" Meanwhile most of the real fans are exuberant.

\still no cure for Moffat

^This

That.

I love what Moffat has done.  Infinitely better than RTD.

/not sarcasm

Agreed. Moffat's story lines are better than RTD. His use of time and consequences add a great layer to an already great story.

RTD was good but moffat is a superior story teller.

And a lot of you don't know what a plot hole is. A plot hole is not something missing. A plot hole is where the plot directly contradicts itself. A see a lot of people in this thread claiming moffat has too many plot holes because they didn't see something on screen. That's not a plot hole. That just means it wasn't on screen.



WAT?
You miss RTD and his masturbatory paving-stone pilot-lines?

/Sarcasm
 
2013-08-05 11:16:24 AM

enforcerpsu: 100 Watt Walrus: bborchar: Hebalo: mafiageek1980: whizbangthedirtfarmer: You can tell the hipster fans from the actual fans. On Facebook a lot of the hipsters are saying things like "ew a grandpa doctor!!!" Meanwhile most of the real fans are exuberant.

\still no cure for Moffat

^This

That.

I love what Moffat has done.  Infinitely better than RTD.

/not sarcasm

I love what Moffat has done for the complexity of the narrative. I love his embracing of the wibbly-wobbly, and I like the increased complexity of the characters.

But he's gone off the rails. Series 7b was lifeless and disjointed. Even the Neil Gaiman episode stunk. Clara went from fascinating, sexy enigma to a bland everygirl whose personality changed with every script, and there was very little through-line for her arc. And, as noted above, it's just become clear that he doesn't give a damn if his stories make sense. Worse, in the last year or so, he's relinquished the complexity he brought to the series in favor of his stupid every-episode-as-a-movie-poster concept of plotting.

But I hope he will change direction once again with the 12th Doctor. I'll give him this: He's very good at changing tone and trajectory. I hope he and Capaldi return the show to the level of Series 5 (minus "Victory of the Daleks" and forgiving the ruining of the Angels) and Series 6 (forgiving the colossal, idiotic plot holes in "The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon").

That doesn't even make sense. You say you like the new complexities but then trash the impossible astronaut. Season 6 was Moffat's crowning moment. It kept everyone glued to the TV to see how the hell he was going to save the doctor from death. And let's give him some credit. He covered any major plot hole to the point where the story is congruent. People can at least plot all of season 6 on a time line and it makes sense. There are shows with gigantic plot issues but dr who season 6 was certainly not one of them.


I think Season 6 serves as an arguable dividing line in the quality of Moffatt's run so far. Season 6a and earlier was Moffatt firing on all cylinders. Season 6b and on is Moffatt off the rails.

I think the key problem is that in S5 and S6a, Moffatt raised DW's season arc standards. Before him, RTD would make light references here, introduce ingredients there, and it all came together in the finale. Moffatt integrated the season arc into the plot of the week and added plot twists along the way. It worked well in S5. He ramped things up with Season 6a by having more plotlines running through the season. They were integrated into episodes of the week and had plot twists but they also intersected. It really was good stuff that kept us in suspense from week to week.

But most of those plotlines resolved by the beginning of S6b and it felt flat from then on. The mystery of River Song was solved, Amy had Melody, she and Rory found Melody, and The Silence was largely dealt with. All that was left was the Death of The Doctor, which wouldn't resolve until the finale and played out more like a RTD finale.

Season 7 continued this. 7a had very little in the ways of season arc. They were like the Tennant specials of 2009 but for The Ponds. 7b had The Impossible Girl which was a flat storyline which only teased but never had twists or actually amounted to anything in a plot of the week. That's what really sucked about Season 7. I'm fine with the episodic, "blockbuster" idea if not always in execution, but imagine if "The Impossible Girl" story arc was more integrated into the departure of The Ponds.

What if Clara/Oswin returned in "A Town Called Mercy" as a local who sacrifices herself to save The Doctor instead of Sheriff Crichton? It would fit for her character in hindsight and start the "Impossible Girl" arc earlier. The Doctor could have been bored during TPOT because of that same mystery he would be obsessed with later. He wants to solve it but The Ponds are mystified by what he's talking about as they move on with their lives.

The Doctor's search leads him to Manhattan, where he meets Clara/Oswin again, but of course she gets nabbed by an angel and dies. Then The Doctor, in his obsession, gets sloppy and it leads to losing Amy and Rory. Or hell, what if it was The Great Intelligence that tipped off the Angels, thus introducing it to the season?

I think those are simple ways S7 could have been better, if only for S7a. Season 7b? Why couldn't The Doctor and Clara have run into... another Clara/Oswin? Why couldn't The Great Intelligence have virtually hijacked an episode or teamed up with the monster/villain of the week at least once?

I'm sure others can come up with small ways S7 could have been made more interesting, but there's a few ideas of mine.
 
2013-08-05 11:31:22 AM

enforcerpsu: He covered any major plot hole to the point where the story is congruent.


Please tell me how the story arc of an alien cult kidnapping a kid to raise as their own, watching her escape, then recapture her, then putting her in an astronaut's suit under a lake to shoot the Doctor, then the Doctor figures this out, somehow decides to force humanity to commit genocide on the creatures, and then marrying the girl who tried to shoot him to repair the universe is in any way "congruent."

I call it befuddled and ridiculous.

\let's face it, Moffat's scripts are pretty on the inside, but don't hold up to the slightest scrutiny
\\ditto with Sherlock = pretty, but inane
 
2013-08-05 03:17:45 PM

whizbangthedirtfarmer: enforcerpsu: He covered any major plot hole to the point where the story is congruent.

Please tell me how the story arc of an alien cult kidnapping a kid to raise as their own, watching her escape, then recapture her, then putting her in an astronaut's suit under a lake to shoot the Doctor, then the Doctor figures this out, somehow decides to force humanity to commit genocide on the creatures, and then marrying the girl who tried to shoot him to repair the universe is in any way "congruent."

I call it befuddled and ridiculous.

\let's face it, Moffat's scripts are pretty on the inside, but don't hold up to the slightest scrutiny
\\ditto with Sherlock = pretty, but inane


If you took a moment to understand it instead of just talking...you might understand it. All of this stuff happens over 100s of years.
 
2013-08-05 03:40:38 PM

enforcerpsu: whizbangthedirtfarmer: enforcerpsu: He covered any major plot hole to the point where the story is congruent.

Please tell me how the story arc of an alien cult kidnapping a kid to raise as their own, watching her escape, then recapture her, then putting her in an astronaut's suit under a lake to shoot the Doctor, then the Doctor figures this out, somehow decides to force humanity to commit genocide on the creatures, and then marrying the girl who tried to shoot him to repair the universe is in any way "congruent."

I call it befuddled and ridiculous.

\let's face it, Moffat's scripts are pretty on the inside, but don't hold up to the slightest scrutiny
\\ditto with Sherlock = pretty, but inane

If you took a moment to understand it instead of just talking...you might understand it. All of this stuff happens over 100s of years.


You missed the point.  That is the most convoluted plot point, and you're relying on "it happens over time!" thing, which, in itself, makes no sense (and it also didn't really happen over centuries). Tell me why the Silence, then, brought in Amy's daughter?  And why they put her at the bottom of a lake?  And why she was wearing an astronaut's suit?  And, biggest of all, how the Doctor condoned genocide?  All of these questions don't have clear answers, and never will.  Like "the impossible girl," Moffat just likes the sound of "the impossible astronaut".
 
2013-08-05 04:44:41 PM

whizbangthedirtfarmer: enforcerpsu: whizbangthedirtfarmer: enforcerpsu: He covered any major plot hole to the point where the story is congruent.

Please tell me how the story arc of an alien cult kidnapping a kid to raise as their own, watching her escape, then recapture her, then putting her in an astronaut's suit under a lake to shoot the Doctor, then the Doctor figures this out, somehow decides to force humanity to commit genocide on the creatures, and then marrying the girl who tried to shoot him to repair the universe is in any way "congruent."

I call it befuddled and ridiculous.

\let's face it, Moffat's scripts are pretty on the inside, but don't hold up to the slightest scrutiny
\\ditto with Sherlock = pretty, but inane

If you took a moment to understand it instead of just talking...you might understand it. All of this stuff happens over 100s of years.

You missed the point.  That is the most convoluted plot point, and you're relying on "it happens over time!" thing, which, in itself, makes no sense (and it also didn't really happen over centuries). Tell me why the Silence, then, brought in Amy's daughter?  And why they put her at the bottom of a lake?  And why she was wearing an astronaut's suit?  And, biggest of all, how the Doctor condoned genocide?  All of these questions don't have clear answers, and never will.  Like "the impossible girl," Moffat just likes the sound of "the impossible astronaut".


This.

The worst parts of the "The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon" arc for me tho is the beginning of "Day of the Moon," in which Amy, Rory, and River are being fake hunted down by Delaware. Among the myriad other problems with the plot at that point is that it's never explained why anyone would want them hunted down at that point, who ordered the hunting, why they're being killed instead of captured, and for whose benefit their deaths are being faked. And don't even get me started on the imprisonment of the Doctor. Moffat just wanted a particular set of circumstances, and a particular couple of set pieces (e.g., Amy being chased through the desert), and he didn't give a single fark how he got the characters there. He just threw together a few flashbacks and slapped a "three months later" title card on the screen. It was a sign of things to come from Moffat.

And I'm right there with you on "Sherlock." For the most part, those stories don't stand up to even a modicum of intellectual scrutiny. The leads are brilliant (and brilliantly cast), and the storytelling is unique and compelling enough to make them fun to watch. But if your Sherlock farking Holmes story requires the viewer to check his/her brain at the door, you've utterly failed to write a good Sherlock Holmes story.
 
2013-08-05 07:54:03 PM

ZeroCorpse: First of all, regarding River Song's story, if any of you are really interested in 'what happened between such-and-such times' then you should check this out:  http://kickass.to/doctor-who-fan-edit-the-river-song-chronology-t7193 9 91.html

It's a fan edit that present River's story in HER chronological order, with some handy captions that help explain the way thing went. It's actually pretty handy if you have time and the interest in the character to watch all of it.



Thanks. I downloaded that, and the separately torrented new part 6 (her post-upload 'life' in "The Name of the Doctor").

It was well done, and something I had considered doing myself. I liked the momentary captions for Amy, Rory and the Doctor, whenever a new point in their lives occurs, showing how many years it is for them until or since Demon's Run.

In addition to some editing discontinuities with the material from "The Wedding of River Song" and "The Name of the Doctor", and leaving out "Good Night" (River was off-camera at the start of it), it had one rather significant chronology error: He put "The Pandorica Opens"/"The Big Bang" several stories too late.

From River's perspective, those two episodes (with the possible exception of her parents' wedding reception) occurred during the first five years of her sentence;  i.e., between her younger two selves in "First Night"/"Last Night". It was at the beginning of "The Pandorica Opens" that she extorted the vortex manipulator from Dorium Moldovar. That particular scene was missing, so that would explain the editor's confusion. Did it get cut on BBCA maybe?

I would also argue that adult River at the beginning of "A Good Man Goes to War" had already lived through her arrival and reveal at the end of the episode.

Re-watching the scenes of her at the end of "The Pandorica Opens" confirmed for me that, even though Moffat and Kingston knew that River was Amy & Rory's daughter, he had not yet decided to make her their childhood best mate. River was surprised by Amelia's collection of TARDIS sculptures & Raggedy Doctor dolls, sighing about the impact the Doctor unwittingly had on the girl. She then proceeded to search through Amelia's books, not as one who had not seen them for years, but as one who had never been in the room before.
 
2013-08-05 09:49:28 PM

HopScotchNSoda: It was well done, and something I had considered doing myself. I liked the momentary captions for Amy, Rory and the Doctor, whenever a new point in their lives occurs, showing how many years it is for them until or since Demon's Run.

In addition to some editing discontinuities with the material from "The Wedding of River Song" and "The Name of the Doctor", and leaving out "Good Night" (River was off-camera at the start of it), it had one rather significant chronology error: He put "The Pandorica Opens"/"The Big Bang" several stories too late.

From River's perspective, those two episodes (with the possible exception of her parents' wedding reception) occurred during the first five years of her sentence;  i.e., between her younger two selves in "First Night"/"Last Night". It was at the beginning of "The Pandorica Opens" that she extorted the vortex manipulator from Dorium Moldovar. That particular scene was missing, so that would explain the editor's confusion. Did it get cut on BBCA maybe?

I would also argue that adult River at the beginning of "A Good Man Goes to War" had already lived through her arrival and reveal at the end of the episode.

Re-watching the scenes of her at the end of "The Pandorica Opens" confirmed for me that, even though Moffat and Kingston knew that River was Amy & Rory's daughter, he had not yet decided to make her their childhood best mate. River was surprised by Amelia's collection of TARDIS sculptures & Raggedy Doctor dolls, sighing about the impact the Doctor unwittingly had on the girl. She then proceeded to search through Amelia's books, not as one who had not seen them for years, but as one who had never been in the room before.


Agree with all of this except River at the beginning of "Good Man" having already lived through her visit to Demon's run. That could be the case, but I don't know that there's any evidence pointing to it being so.

You're 100% right about River's visit to Amy's room in "Pandorica." The whole Mels thing was pulled out of Moffat's ass and crowbarred into River's timeline. It seems obvious to me that Moffat didn't have a biography ready for her, and was just making up each encounter as he went along. There are many, many, many points in her storylines that she is supposedly "acting" like she doesn't know something that it's later revealed she did know - but there are only hints of foreknowledge in Kingston's performance when that foreknowledge has been pre-planned. Moffat retcons the shiat out of River's story every time he writes a new script with her.

What's worse, there are times when she supposedly knows things (after retconning) but "pretends" she doesn't even when there's nobody around.

It really pisses me off sometimes how much Moffat expects to go over the heads of fans, even when he knows (from personal experience) how fans pour over the details and expect some kind of internal logic from a show that is centered on an intellectual character who's usually 10 steps ahead of everyone around him.

Moffat's all about the "wouldn't it be clever if..." and never considers the "yeah, but what about..."
 
2013-08-05 11:37:30 PM
100 Watt Walrus:

The worst parts of the "The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon" arc for me tho is the beginning of "Day of the Moon," in which Amy, Rory, and River are being fake hunted down by Delaware. Among the myriad other problems with the plot at that point is that it's never explained why anyone would want them hunted down at that point,

They split up to search for evidence of the Silence/Silents and possibly for weaknesses, and had themselves hunted down as a ruse to bring them all back together to compare notes, since they could not completely remember why they were searching or what they were searching for except upon seeing the Silents, but they could remember a suggestion given to them while in the visual presence of one.
Earlier in the story they had come up with a plan to mark themselves every time they encountered one of the Aliens, and by doing so they came up with a sample census of their population and whereabouts on Earth.

who ordered the hunting,

President Nixon ordered the manhunt, at the request of the Doctor in return for solving the mystery of the phone calls to the oval office coming from a scared little girl in Florida.  Delaware was highly enough ranked in government service to be allowed free reign to do so.

why they're being killed instead of captured,

To Fool any Silents/Silence who might be observing the hunt to conclude they were being eliminated as a possible threat, even to the remote possibility of a threat they seemed to be.   In the meantime the Doctor had concocted a plan to find their hideout or weakness to fight them with.

 and for whose benefit their deaths are being faked.

See above.

And don't even get me started on the imprisonment of the Doctor.

That part made the most sense of all.  The Doctor could not trick the Silents into entering the Tardis to be captured.  So he had himself captured first, placed under 24 hour observation by no less than 4 armed special forces soldiers (multiple eyes watching the scene at all times) and imprisoned in a room that an enemy would eventually have to physically enter to challenge the Doctor - But could not themselves escape from.  Then he arranged for Rory, Amy, and River to be brought in (Dead or Alive, preferably fake Dead) to the same place where they could compare notes.

The setup was the scene in the Tardis where the doctor was able to create a holographic projection of a Silent and used that to force some post hypnotic suggestions into the minds of his companions.
 
2013-08-06 01:12:06 AM

Seequinn: 100 Watt Walrus:

The worst parts of the "The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon" arc for me tho is the beginning of "Day of the Moon," in which Amy, Rory, and River are being fake hunted down by Delaware. Among the myriad other problems with the plot at that point is that it's never explained why anyone would want them hunted down at that point,

They split up to search for evidence of the Silence/Silents and possibly for weaknesses, and had themselves hunted down as a ruse to bring them all back together to compare notes, since they could not completely remember why they were searching or what they were searching for except upon seeing the Silents, but they could remember a suggestion given to them while in the visual presence of one.
Earlier in the story they had come up with a plan to mark themselves every time they encountered one of the Aliens, and by doing so they came up with a sample census of their population and whereabouts on Earth.

who ordered the hunting,

President Nixon ordered the manhunt, at the request of the Doctor in return for solving the mystery of the phone calls to the oval office coming from a scared little girl in Florida.  Delaware was highly enough ranked in government service to be allowed free reign to do so.

why they're being killed instead of captured,

To Fool any Silents/Silence who might be observing the hunt to conclude they were being eliminated as a possible threat, even to the remote possibility of a threat they seemed to be.   In the meantime the Doctor had concocted a plan to find their hideout or weakness to fight them with.

 and for whose benefit their deaths are being faked.

See above.

And don't even get me started on the imprisonment of the Doctor.

That part made the most sense of all.  The Doctor could not trick the Silents into entering the Tardis to be captured.  So he had himself captured first, placed under 24 hour observation by no less than 4 armed special forces soldiers (multiple eyes watching the ...


Holy crap. All of that seems to actually make sense. Too bad none of it was explained in the show.

Have to ask: How much work was it to figure that out? I'm a pretty bright guy, and one who appreciates complex storytelling, and a life-long "Doctor Who" fan, so I'm wondering if you feel this was all somehow obvious and I missed it, or if you worked on figuring it out instead of just getting frustrated with Moffat's lack of clarity, like I did.
 
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