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(Yahoo)   Failure is an option, America. We have become a nation of hamburger flippers   (finance.yahoo.com) divider line 298
    More: Fail, Dan Alpert, Economic sector, losers  
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12757 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Aug 2013 at 2:53 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



298 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-08-03 09:22:20 AM  
You asked for jobs. Its your fault for not being specific.
 
2013-08-03 09:35:35 AM  
We've been well aware that our entire economy is shifting to service based for at least a few decades now.
 
2013-08-03 09:42:17 AM  
I just hope this doesn't reflect poorly on Obama.
 
2013-08-03 09:43:24 AM  
FTA:  "According to Alpert's analysis, 69% of the jobs created in the second quarter - and 57% in the first half of 2013 - were in the three lowest-paying sectors of the economy: retail trade, administrative and waste services, and leisure and hospitality. These jobs, which account for 33% of all private sector jobs, pay an average of $15.80 per hour."

I wonder how many of these jobs were filled by recent college graduates who can't find work in their field?
 
2013-08-03 09:44:04 AM  
Thanks, GOP!
 
2013-08-03 09:52:19 AM  
15.80 an hr. Wow, I'm surprised that its that high. If that's the true # then its not to bad.
 
2013-08-03 09:57:29 AM  

johnryan51: 15.80 an hr. Wow, I'm surprised that its that high. If that's the true # then its not to bad.


Well, in my case, I make $12/hr as a full-timer in retail.  That's not that much, considering I live in SoCal.  Between rent and student loans, that's my whole paycheck.  *shrugs*   If I wasn't married, I'd have to live with my parents.
 
2013-08-03 10:19:51 AM  
Lived in Germany for a bit after exiting the Army, I found it interesting that in Germany, 'management and unions worked closely together in the interests of the common good. Indeed, by law all major German firms are required to set up Works Councils, where the bosses and the unions must work together 'in a spirit of mutual trust'.


///words from a BBC story
 
2013-08-03 10:35:31 AM  

jim32rr: Lived in Germany for a bit after exiting the Army, I found it interesting that in Germany, 'management and unions worked closely together in the interests of the common good. Indeed, by law all major German firms are required to set up Works Councils, where the bosses and the unions must work together 'in a spirit of mutual trust'.


///words from a BBC story


So well that even doctors in Germany have to go on strike to be paid well.

/from Frontline: sick around the world
 
2013-08-03 10:48:23 AM  
We have become a nation of hamburger flippers eaters


/prefers 'Whopper Flopper'
 
2013-08-03 10:49:54 AM  
"The world needs ditch diggers. Not everyone is a special snowflake."

"I'm a ditch digger. "

"LOL you f*ckin loser!"
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-03 11:15:38 AM  

BunkyBrewman: We've been well aware that our entire economy is shifting to service based for at least a few decades now.


Yes, since we decided to shift it in that direction in the 80's.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-03 11:17:02 AM  

jim32rr: Lived in Germany for a bit after exiting the Army, I found it interesting that in Germany, 'management and unions worked closely together in the interests of the common good. Indeed, by law all major German firms are required to set up Works Councils, where the bosses and the unions must work together 'in a spirit of mutual trust'.



Yes, and they still have a manufacturing based economy while we outsourced ours.
 
2013-08-03 11:21:45 AM  

vpb: BunkyBrewman: We've been well aware that our entire economy is shifting to service based for at least a few decades now.

Yes, since we decided to shift it in that direction in the 80's.


As the manufacturing jobs were being moved overseas, coincidentally

/I always wondered how a country can have a gross national product once they've stopped actually producing anything
 
2013-08-03 11:39:01 AM  

Nabb1: I just hope this doesn't reflect poorly on Obama.


I blame Bush.
 
2013-08-03 11:45:32 AM  
Those of you who live in cities now gentrifying, take a look around. What were once foundries are now condo buildings (I used to live in one). Most major cities have a something like a "warehouse district" that's now upscale eateries and, once again, condos. Those reasonably paying jobs didn't move to the suburbs. They just up and went.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-03 12:40:31 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: vpb: BunkyBrewman: We've been well aware that our entire economy is shifting to service based for at least a few decades now.

Yes, since we decided to shift it in that direction in the 80's.

As the manufacturing jobs were being moved overseas, coincidentally


That's what I mean.  The jobs left because we got rid of the tariffs on foreign imports that game domestic products an advantage.

I have always thought that if you want to sell something in the USA you should either make it here or pay for the privilege.
 
2013-08-03 12:42:11 PM  

johnryan51: 15.80 an hr. Wow, I'm surprised that its that high. If that's the true # then its not to bad.


It also depends om where you live too. $16 an hour in NYC is starvation wages.
 
2013-08-03 01:34:42 PM  
Soon we'll have the largest, most educated, well-armed class of poor people in the world.
 
2013-08-03 01:35:57 PM  

jim32rr: Lived in Germany for a bit after exiting the Army, I found it interesting that in Germany, 'management and unions worked closely together in the interests of the common good. Indeed, by law all major German firms are required to set up Works Councils, where the bosses and the unions must work together 'in a spirit of mutual trust'.


///words from a BBC story


Really, only in the US are unions and management antagonistic towards each other.  The rest of the world realizes that labor and management have the same farking goal: make the company successful.
 
2013-08-03 01:37:53 PM  

One Bad Apple: johnryan51: 15.80 an hr. Wow, I'm surprised that its that high. If that's the true # then its not to bad.

It also depends om where you live too. $16 an hour in NYC is starvation wages.


Yep. NY is spendy. It sucks that they won't let anybody move to a place that costs less. I think they made a movie about that.
 
2013-08-03 01:40:20 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-08-03 01:40:49 PM  

edmo: Soon we'll have the largest, most educated, well-armed class of poor people in the world.


With refrigerators, too
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-03 02:08:54 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Yep. NY is spendy. It sucks that they won't let anybody move to a place that costs less. I think they made a movie about that.


Maybe theres a reason people live there?  I suspect things like public transportation have something to do with it.
 
2013-08-03 02:21:57 PM  
Somacandra: i.imgur.com

(click the pic)
 
IP
2013-08-03 02:33:37 PM  
*sigh*. The race to the bottom continues apace...
 
2013-08-03 02:56:07 PM  

Nabb1: I just hope this doesn't reflect poorly on Obama.


Obama single-handedly made this happen.
Because the president decides whether to create jobs or not, and what kind of jobs they are.
All Obama's fault.
 
2013-08-03 02:56:12 PM  

Nabb1: I just hope this doesn't reflect poorly on Obama.


I'm afraid it's bad news...for him.
 
2013-08-03 02:56:35 PM  
It's here.
www.dvdtalk.com
 
2013-08-03 02:58:24 PM  

raerae1980: johnryan51: 15.80 an hr. Wow, I'm surprised that its that high. If that's the true # then its not to bad.

Well, in my case, I make $12/hr as a full-timer in retail.  That's not that much, considering I live in SoCal.  Between rent and student loans, that's my whole paycheck.  *shrugs*   If I wasn't married, I'd have to live with my parents.


You post $12/hr full time. Do you receive health care or any other benefits?
 
2013-08-03 02:59:19 PM  
The richest in this country have spent 40 years working hard to drag us back down to the glory years before The New Deal came along and 'now' you all seem surprised for some reason.
 
2013-08-03 02:59:54 PM  
USA USA USA
 
2013-08-03 03:00:13 PM  
It's only a failure if you make shiat money AND vote republican.
 
2013-08-03 03:00:13 PM  
So there are enough poor and desperate people. The GOP just needs to get those pesky minimum wage and workplace safety laws repealed, and corporations can FINALLY bring jobs back from China!
 
2013-08-03 03:01:40 PM  
If America continues to advance toward a European-sized, crony-capitalist, cradle-to-grave welfare state, expect European levels of bankruptcy, unemployment, and demographic decline.

The future of America will look more and more like the present of Detroit and Greece.
 
2013-08-03 03:01:56 PM  

jim32rr: Lived in Germany for a bit after exiting the Army, I found it interesting that in Germany, 'management and unions worked closely together in the interests of the common good. Indeed, by law all major German firms are required to set up Works Councils, where the bosses and the unions must work together 'in a spirit of mutual trust'.


///words from a BBC story


Here in America we broke unions backs, because of communism or something.  The idea is that they were holding back profitability, thus investment.

Well, we no longer have private sector unions.  Profitability is through the roof, and the promise of it being funneled into investment turned out to be false.  It's thrown and hoarded in offshore accounts, or given out in dividend and executive pay and finds the same places.

Oops.  We only had to allow the hollowing out of the Capitalism for it to work.  It's the grand theft by a lazy 1%.
 
2013-08-03 03:02:06 PM  
This is the perfect GOP economy: money flows up into the rentier class while the increasingly poor bottom votes Republican to keep the Mexicans and gays from ruining their lives.
 
2013-08-03 03:03:18 PM  
the real story is in the related article half way down:   $2 trillion shadow economy.

why report your income honestly when you know there is ZERO benefit to do so?  THE_IRS claims they lose $500 billion in tax revenue because of the shadow economy.  Any tiny violin players out there that can assist me with the chorus?
 
2013-08-03 03:03:59 PM  
skiffleboom.files.wordpress.com

Approves.
 
2013-08-03 03:04:39 PM  
Job creator utopia.

Problem, resident?
 
2013-08-03 03:07:41 PM  
Not to worry - as long as the flippers @ MacDonalds buy their lunch @ Burger King, and the flippers @ Burger King buy their lunch @ Taco Bell, and everyone continues to pay their taxes, the economy will continue to roll merrily along...

Have a happy day!
 
2013-08-03 03:08:29 PM  
Failure (working retail at Trader Joe's): 40k
Success (interning/entry level at a big time company): 20-40k
 
2013-08-03 03:09:06 PM  

Nabb1: I just hope this doesn't reflect poorly on Obama.


It wont.  It has become acceptable to become an underachiever because it is currently vogue to blame the president of 6 years ago for the economy.  It is almost seem as a duty to Obama to be a failure and talk up his successes while blaming republicans and baby boomers for your bad luck with getting a job.  Living in your parents house on their insurance when you are 25 simultaneously is a tribute to Obama's successes, and an incrimination of the evil, stupid republicans.  Like any other failed culture, the young, liberal culture of failure was built on celebrating laziness and reviling hard work.  You didn't build that; let the government make it all better.

Because there are not any successful, 23 year old college grads anywhere in America, and if they are then they had white privileged or some other made-up thing.
 
2013-08-03 03:11:46 PM  

edmo: Soon we'll have the largest, most educated, well-armed class of poor people in the world.


And shortly after that, France had a lot of heads rolling around la Place de la Concorde.
 
2013-08-03 03:12:10 PM  
I forget, is this the third or fourth "recovery summer"?
 
2013-08-03 03:12:17 PM  
i1121.photobucket.com

Repubs have been blaming the Dems and vice versa for generations...

How's that working out for you, America?
 
2013-08-03 03:12:18 PM  
Welcome to the Obama economy. In a few years, it won't matter what job you have, we'll all be making the same wage.
 
2013-08-03 03:12:54 PM  

choo: Thanks, GOP


Ain't that the truth. How could they not find a candidate to beat the current Moron in
Chief?
 
2013-08-03 03:14:25 PM  

Infernalist: The richest in this country have spent 40 years working hard to drag us back down to the glory years before The New Deal came along and 'now' you all seem surprised for some reason.


Exactly! Why people cannot see that this has been the goal of the (mainly) republicans for YEARS, to return us to the days of the robber barons, is beyond me. Maybe they never read any history?

But the pendulum is going to swing back hard soon. The New Deal was mostly able to be put into place because a lot of wise people feared socialism, real socialism not the boogy man created by the teahadists. They realized there would be a revolution in this country if they didn't give some sops to the poor/working class, so they did. And it worked. It has ceased working because so much has been dismantled.

Either there will be a return to focus on the working class/poor/middle class...or there will be revolt.
 
2013-08-03 03:14:28 PM  

Delay: raerae1980: johnryan51: 15.80 an hr. Wow, I'm surprised that its that high. If that's the true # then its not to bad.

Well, in my case, I make $12/hr as a full-timer in retail.  That's not that much, considering I live in SoCal.  Between rent and student loans, that's my whole paycheck.  *shrugs*   If I wasn't married, I'd have to live with my parents.

You post $12/hr full time. Do you receive health care or any other benefits?


As a Canadian making the same, I'd be interested in the comparison. Cause I know my taxes are higher :P
 
2013-08-03 03:14:59 PM  

Amos Quito: [i1121.photobucket.com image 631x615]

Repubs have been blaming the Dems and vice versa for generations...

How's that working out for you, America?


Not blaming the Jews anymore?
 
2013-08-03 03:15:02 PM  

One Bad Apple: johnryan51: 15.80 an hr. Wow, I'm surprised that its that high. If that's the true # then its not to bad.

It also depends om where you live too. $16 an hour in NYC is starvation wages.


I live in NYC and make $16 an hour, I'm nowhere near starving.
 
2013-08-03 03:15:08 PM  

Sudlow: I forget, is this the third or fourth "recovery summer"?


Don't know... is this an election year?
 
2013-08-03 03:15:13 PM  
Obviously we need more workers. Amnesty!
 
2013-08-03 03:15:44 PM  
When I'm working, I make very good money. I've been working nearly nonstop since fall of 2010. But now my industry (I'm a contractor) has hit 'famine' stage. One of our large plants shut down, dumping nearly a thousand people into the workforce. The plants that had scheduled outages this fall either aren't going to outage or staffed early.

/Lucky I have a kind family who understands how the industry booms and busts
//unemployment pays my student loans, car and health insurance, and phone, that's it
///self insured
 
2013-08-03 03:16:46 PM  
http://profoundlydisconnected.com/   found this interesting.
 
2013-08-03 03:17:41 PM  
I for one welcome our Assistant Manager overloards.
 
2013-08-03 03:17:43 PM  
Until we have self-flipping burgers, I'm okay with this.
 
2013-08-03 03:19:35 PM  
A liberal economy and $15 an hour burger flippers, right?
 
2013-08-03 03:19:47 PM  

Outrageous Muff: Amos Quito: [i1121.photobucket.com image 631x615]

Repubs have been blaming the Dems and vice versa for generations...

How's that working out for you, America?

Not blaming the Jews anymore?



Any more than what?
 
2013-08-03 03:20:29 PM  
This is a serious question, not a polemic masked as one.  It seems throughout our history before World War II the U.S. and, indeed, the world did not have a sizeable middle class.  It was the haves and the have-nots, by and large, with a small middle- or merchant class.

After WWII, the American industrial machine ramped up exponentially, producing consumer goods, largely for a domestic market, produced by a well-paid, moderate- to low-skill workforce.  Producers could afford to pay these wages because they were selling their products to a somewhat captive market at high prices.

Over time, with efficiencies in manufacturing processes and improved global transport systems, the American market was flooded with lower-cost goods produced in countries without American-style wage structures or worker-safety and environmental protections.

These and a number of other factors killed the American producer/consumer cycle that formed after the 1940s.

My questions are; was the economic structure that produced such a huge middle class in America a false one?  Was it all a pyramid scheme that was destined to collapse?  Is the very notion of a free economy without huge wealth disparities even practical on a scale as big as the American one? Or is a new model conceivable that would put a healthy percentage of Americans back to work at good wages, without raping the environment and putting lives at risk?

As I said, I'm not arguing any school of thought on this issue, as I really don't know what the solution is, or even if my stated assumptions are valid.
 
2013-08-03 03:20:58 PM  
Lived in Germany for a bit after exiting the Army, I found it interesting that in Germany, 'management and unions worked closely together in the interests of the common good. Indeed, by law all major German firms are required to set up Works Councils, where the bosses and the unions must work together 'in a spirit of mutual trust'.

Sounds all Socialisty
 
2013-08-03 03:21:13 PM  

sigdiamond2000: "The world needs ditch diggers. Not everyone is a special snowflake."

"I'm a ditch digger. "

"LOL you f*ckin loser!"


:( im a contractor; kick etc
 
2013-08-03 03:22:29 PM  

Vectron: Obviously we need more workers. Amnesty!



Yeah, the cool thing is that our new "guests" will be willing to flip those burgers at half the going wage.
 
2013-08-03 03:23:25 PM  
This is nothing new.  This has been the story of the so-called recovery since day one.  All is takes is the effort to look behind the numbers.  The recovery has been a grand success in that the large banks and Wall Street have been bailed-out and are now reaping record profits while the stock market is at a record high.  This is exactly as intended.  As for the rest of us, no so much but then that was never the point of all of the policies initiated at the end of the Bush years and supported by Obama.
 
2013-08-03 03:23:27 PM  

edmo: Soon we'll have the largest, most educated, well-armed class of poor people in the world.


After they sent the good jobs overseas, with their free trade bullshiat, they told us we weren't going to miss them because we were all going to college and get information age jobs.

Don't ever listen to politicians. They had a theory that turned out to be wrong. Who suffers? They enriched themselves and their friends in DC and on Wall St. while the rest of the country bore the brunt of their miscalculations. The Fed serves Wall St. only.  I am beginning to think secession is the only option to rid ourselves of Washington DC and the connivers.
 
2013-08-03 03:23:50 PM  
hiring in retail means there's been an increase in consumption.
 
2013-08-03 03:25:40 PM  

jim32rr: Lived in Germany for a bit after exiting the Army, I found it interesting that in Germany, 'management and unions worked closely together in the interests of the common good. Indeed, by law all major German firms are required to set up Works Councils, where the bosses and the unions must work together 'in a spirit of mutual trust'.


///words from a BBC story


Sozalisms!

/   'Merkin point of view
 
2013-08-03 03:26:35 PM  

agsfark: choo: Thanks, GOP

Ain't that the truth. How could they not find a candidate to beat the current Moron in
Chief?


The media wont let them win.  I knew 20 things about Sarah Palin's life, husband, kids, grandkids, the grandkids who were her actual kids, husband's job, husband's previous job, who her kids were dating, her wardrobe budget for the primaries, and part of her DNA and likelihood of trisomy occurring during a pregnancy.  None of that information was shared in a positive light.  She wasn't even running for president.

COMMUNITY ORGANIZER (a made-up term) was given more credence than someone who was an actual chief executive of a state.  It was said Obama had more experience.

On the other hand, I didn't even know if Biden had kids on election day.  All I know about him to this day is that he gaffe's about as much as Bush did but in a more adorable way, and The Onion likes him and keeps making endearing "Oh look he is washing his Trans Am on the White House lawn" jokes.

The baby of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson could run today, because he came back in time from a cloning vat, and he could claim he had perfect knowledge of the next 200 years of world history, and knew exactly what, and when, to do, and if they are on the Republican ticket they couldn't win.  The democrat candidate would just laugh and kill and eat an infant on live TV during primetime on all the networks and basic cable and still get 52% of the vote.  The media has done their jobs well.
 
2013-08-03 03:27:53 PM  

Amos Quito: Vectron: Obviously we need more workers. Amnesty!


Yeah, the cool thing is that our new "guests" will be willing to flip those burgers at half the going wage.


The impact of giving 11-20 million folks amnesty is not being discussed .... move along
 
2013-08-03 03:28:18 PM  
If only there was an untapped reserve of workers willing to come here.

Then we could be the .........ASSISTANT MANAGERS. Feel the power, feeel-iiiit.
 
2013-08-03 03:28:33 PM  
Also "gaffe's" was a typo, so try not to focus on that when weighing my post's merit.
 
2013-08-03 03:29:49 PM  
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
Ant
2013-08-03 03:29:57 PM  

silvervial: They realized there would be a revolution in this country if they didn't give some sops to the poor/working class, so they did. And it worked.


OMG! Hey, poor people, look over there! It's the gays/illegal immigrants/socialists! Quick, vote Republican, and we'll protect you!!!!
 
2013-08-03 03:30:33 PM  

LordJiro: So there are enough poor and desperate people. The GOP just needs to get those pesky minimum wage and workplace safety laws repealed, and corporations can FINALLY bring jobs back from China!


Funny thing is, this is what Republicans actually believe. Exploit the poor in order to benefit the rich, make it just like the 1890s again.
 
2013-08-03 03:30:33 PM  
I read an article the other day about how the conservative party leader of Ontario's economic plan for Windsor was everyone should get high paying jobs in Detroit and bring the money back to Canada.

lulzylulzylulz
 
2013-08-03 03:31:01 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: vpb: BunkyBrewman: We've been well aware that our entire economy is shifting to service based for at least a few decades now.

Yes, since we decided to shift it in that direction in the 80's.

As the manufacturing jobs were being moved overseas, coincidentally

/I always wondered how a country can have a gross national product once they've stopped actually producing anything


To be fair, quite a lot of them just moved across the border to Mexico.

The destruction of America's manufacturing jobs was hardly accidental and it was completely bipartisan.

Bush Senior began negotiation of the first of the free trade agreements that allowed the rich to move America's manufacturing jobs out of the United States without facing any sort of financial penalty when the finished goods were brought back inside the US for sale.

Clinton finished the negotiations and fought to have the treaty ratified as one of his very first actions in office. He blew a huge amount of political capital to get it past his own party due to huge union opposition.

Bought off representatives of both parties repeatedly promised that these treaties would mean more manufacturing jobs for Americans.

Clinton while signing the NAFTA bill stated: "...NAFTA means jobs. American jobs, and good-paying American jobs. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't support this agreement."

They lied.
 
2013-08-03 03:31:47 PM  

silvervial: Infernalist: The richest in this country have spent 40 years working hard to drag us back down to the glory years before The New Deal came along and 'now' you all seem surprised for some reason.

Exactly! Why people cannot see that this has been the goal of the (mainly) republicans for YEARS, to return us to the days of the robber barons, is beyond me. Maybe they never read any history?

But the pendulum is going to swing back hard soon. The New Deal was mostly able to be put into place because a lot of wise people feared socialism, real socialism not the boogy man created by the teahadists. They realized there would be a revolution in this country if they didn't give some sops to the poor/working class, so they did. And it worked. It has ceased working because so much has been dismantled.

Either there will be a return to focus on the working class/poor/middle class...or there will be revolt.


This.
 
Ant
2013-08-03 03:34:01 PM  

IP: *sigh*. The race to the bottom continues apace...


Woo hoo! You're on! We'll kick everyone's ass!
 
2013-08-03 03:34:19 PM  

sigdiamond2000: "The world needs ditch diggers. Not everyone is a special snowflake."

"I'm a ditch digger. "

"LOL you f*ckin loser!"


Considering the ditch diggers are using heavy equipment these days, I'm not sure it's a loser job.  It's certainly not a job that requires all that many people nowadays.  But what job does now? Say what you will, every field will be automated,and thankfully, we're moving toward a "everyone must work, no more welfare" model.

/wait, what?
 
2013-08-03 03:34:49 PM  

LawrencePerson: If America continues to advance toward a European-sized, crony-capitalist, cradle-to-grave welfare state, expect European levels of bankruptcy, unemployment, and demographic decline.

The future of America will look more and more like the present of Detroit and Greece.


Like Greece, the wealthiest people and corporations do everything they can to avoid paying taxes to support the infrastructure and civilization they require for them to make profits.

Also exporting manufacturing jobs due to cheap fuel to move completed products to market caused the labor collapse which employed people who in turn paid taxes and bought the products.

Welcome back to 1890.
 
2013-08-03 03:35:41 PM  

BunkyBrewman: We've been well aware that our entire economy is shifting to service based for at least a few decades now.


Service? Hamburger assembly is clearly a manufacturing job.
 
2013-08-03 03:36:21 PM  
We still have music, movies, and microcode, though.

Right?
 
2013-08-03 03:36:39 PM  
fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net
 
2013-08-03 03:36:50 PM  

Amos Quito: Vectron: Obviously we need more workers. Amnesty!

Yeah, the cool thing is that our new "guests" will be willing to flip those burgers at half the going wage.


Top GOP donors press lawmakers to act on immigration reform

Surely doing exactly what the rich want can't possibly go wrong AGAIN? Can it?

Look how well those free trade agreements the rich bought and paid for worked out for Detroit!
 
2013-08-03 03:37:49 PM  
This problem has been in the works for a few decades. Our educational system sucks and continues to fail (yet) another generation.  When manufacturers learned that they could go overseas with jobs formerly based in the USA, especially in the late 70s/early 80s after Big Steel and Big Auto went into decline, that was the beginning of the end.  With the emergence of China as a factory for everything else, the actual production capabilities of this country are now often owned by foreign interests.  Even those that are not face very difficult opposition from places willing to pay far less in cost and ship here for massive profits.  So long as we do not take action to reform education and bring manufacturing jobs back stateside, this problem will continue.  Eventually the financial and technology sectors will complete their moves to places like Frankfurt, Shanghai, and Bangalore, leaving us a giant relic of the 20th century with an increasingly intrusive government capable of much more observation and control than Stalin could possibly dream of.
 
Ant
2013-08-03 03:38:05 PM  

silvervial: Either there will be a return to focus on the working class/poor/middle class...or there will be revolt.


I doubt that. Remember all the poor working-class slobs proudly bragging about how many jobs they had to hold down in order to make a living during that whole 1% vs the 99% and Occupy Wall Street stuff?
 
2013-08-03 03:38:27 PM  
Time to re-open the failure option:

www.angryflower.com
 
2013-08-03 03:39:01 PM  

johnryan51: 15.80 an hr. Wow, I'm surprised that its that high. If that's the true # then its not to bad.


The median is probably quite a bit lower.
 
2013-08-03 03:40:05 PM  
...but, but everybody got a trophy in school. How could this happen?


/I blame Bush and/or Obama.
 
2013-08-03 03:42:11 PM  

GORDON: agsfark: choo: Thanks, GOP

Ain't that the truth. How could they not find a candidate to beat the current Moron in
Chief?

The media wont let them win.  I knew 20 things about Sarah Palin's life, husband, kids, grandkids, the grandkids who were her actual kids, husband's job, husband's previous job, who her kids were dating, her wardrobe budget for the primaries, and part of her DNA and likelihood of trisomy occurring during a pregnancy.  None of that information was shared in a positive light.  She wasn't even running for president.

COMMUNITY ORGANIZER (a made-up term) was given more credence than someone who was an actual chief executive of a state.  It was said Obama had more experience.

On the other hand, I didn't even know if Biden had kids on election day.  All I know about him to this day is that he gaffe's about as much as Bush did but in a more adorable way, and The Onion likes him and keeps making endearing "Oh look he is washing his Trans Am on the White House lawn" jokes.

The baby of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson could run today, because he came back in time from a cloning vat, and he could claim he had perfect knowledge of the next 200 years of world history, and knew exactly what, and when, to do, and if they are on the Republican ticket they couldn't win.  The democrat candidate would just laugh and kill and eat an infant on live TV during primetime on all the networks and basic cable and still get 52% of the vote.  The media has done their jobs well.


Awesome.

This is how it's done, folks, hahahaha a little heavy handed on the MSM whine, though.
 
2013-08-03 03:42:36 PM  
But, when similar "improvements" to the jobs picture was reported back when Georgie Porgie was president, everyone was all "yeah, but the type of jobs created were low paying, service jobs."  WHAR THE OUTRAGE WHEN IT'S PRESIDENT HOPEY?  WHAR?

The truth is somewhere along the lines of the state of the economy has very little to do with whatever "leadership" is provided by the president or Congress.  Oops, does this get me banned on Fark?
 
2013-08-03 03:45:21 PM  

lousy screw: This is a serious question, not a polemic masked as one.  It seems throughout our history before World War II the U.S. and, indeed, the world did not have a sizeable middle class.  It was the haves and the have-nots, by and large, with a small middle- or merchant class.

After WWII, the American industrial machine ramped up exponentially, producing consumer goods, largely for a domestic market, produced by a well-paid, moderate- to low-skill workforce.  Producers could afford to pay these wages because they were selling their products to a somewhat captive market at high prices.

Over time, with efficiencies in manufacturing processes and improved global transport systems, the American market was flooded with lower-cost goods produced in countries without American-style wage structures or worker-safety and environmental protections.

These and a number of other factors killed the American producer/consumer cycle that formed after the 1940s.

My questions are; was the economic structure that produced such a huge middle class in America a false one?  Was it all a pyramid scheme that was destined to collapse?  Is the very notion of a free economy without huge wealth disparities even practical on a scale as big as the American one? Or is a new model conceivable that would put a healthy percentage of Americans back to work at good wages, without raping the environment and putting lives at risk?

As I said, I'm not arguing any school of thought on this issue, as I really don't know what the solution is, or even if my stated assumptions are valid.


I often wonder the same, and I suspect you may be correct.

You know the science fiction trope that technology will reach a level where physical labor is all but eliminated and that society will become a sort of utopia where no one wants for anything and all are free to pursue the arts or some such?  I really think that the more likely scenario is that a few oligarchs will be super wealthy while the rest of us are living in crushing poverty.
 
2013-08-03 03:46:08 PM  

GORDON: agsfark: choo: Thanks, GOP

Ain't that the truth. How could they not find a candidate to beat the current Moron in
Chief?

The media wont let them win.  I knew 20 things about Sarah Palin's life, husband, kids, grandkids, the grandkids who were her actual kids, husband's job, husband's previous job, who her kids were dating, her wardrobe budget for the primaries, and part of her DNA and likelihood of trisomy occurring during a pregnancy.  None of that information was shared in a positive light.  She wasn't even running for president.

COMMUNITY ORGANIZER (a made-up term) was given more credence than someone who was an actual chief executive of a state.  It was said Obama had more experience.

On the other hand, I didn't even know if Biden had kids on election day.  All I know about him to this day is that he gaffe's about as much as Bush did but in a more adorable way, and The Onion likes him and keeps making endearing "Oh look he is washing his Trans Am on the White House lawn" jokes.

The baby of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson could run today, because he came back in time from a cloning vat, and he could claim he had perfect knowledge of the next 200 years of world history, and knew exactly what, and when, to do, and if they are on the Republican ticket they couldn't win.  The democrat candidate would just laugh and kill and eat an infant on live TV during primetime on all the networks and basic cable and still get 52% of the vote.  The media has done their jobs well.


The GOP has done this to themselves. Nate Silver says the GOP has a financial message that rings true with many voters, but their stance on social issues is painting them in a corner. They can't piss off their core so they can't reach the moderates.
 
2013-08-03 03:46:26 PM  

Amos Quito: [i1121.photobucket.com image 631x615]

Repubs have been blaming the Dems and vice versa for generations...

How's that working out for you, America?


For the 1%, swimmingly!
 
2013-08-03 03:48:15 PM  
"These jobs, which account for 33% of all private sector jobs, pay an average of $15.80 per hour."

$15.80 an hour is a pretty decent wage in most places. You wont live like a king, but you'll manage. The problem is people are spoiled. They think they need to drive a new car, have the best furnishings in their house, $80 a month cable Tv on their 50" flat screens, $200 cell phones with a $75 monthly plan and a slew of other crap that you can live without.

Hell, $15.80 an hour is more than I'm making.
 
2013-08-03 03:48:34 PM  

miniflea: lousy screw: This is a serious question, not a polemic masked as one.  It seems throughout our history before World War II the U.S. and, indeed, the world did not have a sizeable middle class.  It was the haves and the have-nots, by and large, with a small middle- or merchant class.

After WWII, the American industrial machine ramped up exponentially, producing consumer goods, largely for a domestic market, produced by a well-paid, moderate- to low-skill workforce.  Producers could afford to pay these wages because they were selling their products to a somewhat captive market at high prices.

Over time, with efficiencies in manufacturing processes and improved global transport systems, the American market was flooded with lower-cost goods produced in countries without American-style wage structures or worker-safety and environmental protections.

These and a number of other factors killed the American producer/consumer cycle that formed after the 1940s.

My questions are; was the economic structure that produced such a huge middle class in America a false one?  Was it all a pyramid scheme that was destined to collapse?  Is the very notion of a free economy without huge wealth disparities even practical on a scale as big as the American one? Or is a new model conceivable that would put a healthy percentage of Americans back to work at good wages, without raping the environment and putting lives at risk?

As I said, I'm not arguing any school of thought on this issue, as I really don't know what the solution is, or even if my stated assumptions are valid.

I often wonder the same, and I suspect you may be correct.

You know the science fiction trope that technology will reach a level where physical labor is all but eliminated and that society will become a sort of utopia where no one wants for anything and all are free to pursue the arts or some such?  I really think that the more likely scenario is that a few oligarchs will be super wealthy while the rest of us are l ...


So you're thinking our future is going to be a lot like that Elysium movie set for release this weekend?
 
2013-08-03 03:49:53 PM  

silvervial:
Either there will be a return to focus on the working class/poor/middle class...or there will be revolt.


Nope.

Have you looked at your fellow Hippopotamus-American? They couldn't run a revolt because they can run 20 feet without gasping for breath.

The American public is fattened-up and dumbed-down for slaughter.

The owners of the country want the NSA so that they know what everyone is doing and thinking so that they're ready to quash any major dissent quickly.

I'm looking for a way out to work and live in a real developed country where the roads and bridges aren't neglected goat paths, they have 180mph trains, and you don't lose your home to a health emergency or going into 6 figure debt to put your kids through school.

Since the 1960's cartels have been establish to artificially raise prices in healthcare and education where once these things were considered a basic service of a civilized nation -- you know -- like every other developed nation does.

Now we're plagues with willfully ignorant tea-tards who vote to elect the people farking them even harder.

www.myconfinedspace.com
/never gets old
 
2013-08-03 03:50:18 PM  
Nabb1

I just hope this doesn't reflect poorly on Obama.

He could be caught raping a 12 year old and farks leftists would excuse and support it.
 
2013-08-03 03:50:26 PM  

One Bad Apple: johnryan51: 15.80 an hr. Wow, I'm surprised that its that high. If that's the true # then its not to bad.

It also depends om where you live too. $16 an hour in NYC is starvation wages.


I'm in Tennessee and you have to have a doctorate degree to make that kind of money.
 
2013-08-03 03:51:29 PM  

Loucifer: Until we have self-flipping burgers, I'm okay with this.


static3.businessinsider.com
 
2013-08-03 03:51:39 PM  

seadoo2006: [fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net image 452x433]


That's the biggest crock of shiat I've ever read in my life.
 
2013-08-03 03:53:34 PM  

vpb: jim32rr: Lived in Germany for a bit after exiting the Army, I found it interesting that in Germany, 'management and unions worked closely together in the interests of the common good. Indeed, by law all major German firms are required to set up Works Councils, where the bosses and the unions must work together 'in a spirit of mutual trust'.


Yes, and they still have a manufacturing based economy while we outsourced ours.


The ran the mid-easterners out in the 40s. Consequently, they get a country of Germans putting Germany first.
 
2013-08-03 03:56:32 PM  
Hey, let's all go mock the ME generation for still living in their parents' houses! LOSERS! HA HA! And those poor people! Why don't you PULL YOURSELF UP BY YOUR BOOTSTRAPS!

SOCALISM IS EVIL! CAPITALISM IS HOLY! HAIL CAPITALISM!
 
2013-08-03 04:00:07 PM  

vpb: jim32rr: Lived in Germany for a bit after exiting the Army, I found it interesting that in Germany, 'management and unions worked closely together in the interests of the common good. Indeed, by law all major German firms are required to set up Works Councils, where the bosses and the unions must work together 'in a spirit of mutual trust'.


Yes, and they still have a manufacturing based economy while we outsourced ours.




Manufacturing, alone, would be the 10th largest economy in the world.

We are good at automating. The best in the world.

300 million.
 
2013-08-03 04:01:07 PM  

sigdiamond2000: "The world needs ditch diggers. Not everyone is a special snowflake."

"I'm a ditch digger. "

"LOL you f*ckin loser!"


That's pretty much it IMO. Not everyone is capable of becoming doctors and lawyers, nor would we need that many. At the same time, we've been taught to think that any kind of physical labor or trade is menial and undesirable, that you should avoid those jobs at all costs.
 
2013-08-03 04:01:53 PM  
In South Florida now:
Skilled Trim Carpenter: $30.00 hr. + Benefits.
Heavy Equipment Operator: $35.00 hr. + Benefits.
Journeyman Electrician $35.00 hr. + Benefits
Project Superintendent $40.00 hr + Benefits
and so on........

Cost Of Living: Less than New York, more than Arkansas.

5-10 years paid training and experience.

You can still make a living with a little more effort than 'Supersizing'.
 
2013-08-03 04:02:45 PM  
vpb
(favorite: Blamed "right wing conspiracy " for Family Research Council shooting after shooter was identified as left wing gay activist)


>>>> BunkyBrewman: We've been well aware that our entire economy is shifting
>>>> to service based for at least a few decades now.

Yes, since we decided to shift it in that direction in the 80's.

Coming off the carter malaise, under Reagan...
*Income was up .
*Minority business ownership was up.
*Minority wages (and buying power) skyrocketed.
*Unemployment was down.
*Industrial Production was up (between 28% and 30%)
*Real GDP was up 35% - 40%)
*Tax revenues were up (around 28%)
*An economic boom lasting 92+ months.
*The American economy grew by about one-third in real inflation-adjusted terms. This was the equivalent of adding the entire economy of East and West Germany or two-thirds of Japan's economy to the U.S. economy


Now, let us for the sake of argument accept the left's assertion that the US Economy bombed because of Bush II. What's zero done to fix it? By almost every measurable standard we are worse now than when he took office.


/// Did not vote for bush.
/// Am not a republican.
 
2013-08-03 04:02:59 PM  

ReapTheChaos: seadoo2006: [fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net image 452x433]

That's the biggest crock of shiat I've ever read in my life.


It's a bit extreme but society should be able to handle a 10% unemployment rate without sh*tting it's diapers... even if those people CHOOSE to be unemployed. Most people want to work and do stuff. Some don't. Why waste your energy getting pissy about it? Give them enough to live without having to become criminals and you'll likely never even know they're there.
 
2013-08-03 04:04:01 PM  

LordJiro: So there are enough poor and desperate people. The GOP just needs to get those pesky minimum wage and workplace safety laws repealed, and corporations can FINALLY bring jobs back from China!


Meh.  The same people who whine about jobs in China are okay with illegal immigrants taking jobs and using services in the US.
 
2013-08-03 04:04:38 PM  
$16/hr? I guess I'm totally out of touch but I didn't think that figure is that bad! Unless you live in Manhattan or some high price city $16 is not exactly poverty level!

I didn't make that much until 25.
 
2013-08-03 04:05:10 PM  

Whatchoo Talkinbout: In South Florida now:
Skilled Trim Carpenter: $30.00 hr. + Benefits.
Heavy Equipment Operator: $35.00 hr. + Benefits.
Journeyman Electrician $35.00 hr. + Benefits
Project Superintendent $40.00 hr + Benefits
and so on........

Cost Of Living: Less than New York, more than Arkansas.

5-10 years paid training and experience.

You can still make a living with a little more effort than 'Supersizing'.


You should probably just give up now...

i.imgur.com
 
2013-08-03 04:05:14 PM  
i1280.photobucket.com
I know how much you guys like Republicans, so I'll just leave this here.
 
2013-08-03 04:06:00 PM  

jruland: hiring in retail means there's been an increase in consumption.


working part time at walmart
 
2013-08-03 04:06:05 PM  

miniflea: You know the science fiction trope that technology will reach a level where physical labor is all but eliminated and that society will become a sort of utopia where no one wants for anything and all are free to pursue the arts or some such?  I really think that the more likely scenario is that a few oligarchs will be super wealthy while the rest of us are living in crushing poverty.


There will still be a small middle class of engineers/technicians, and police/soldiers to keep the Morlocks at bay.  But yeah, they'll be vassals of the Eloi, and constantly threatened with being cast out of Paradise to face the teeming hordes that hate them as much as their masters.
 
2013-08-03 04:06:20 PM  
Brad Hamilton: Arnold, do you want to work at All-American Burger?
Arnold: Yeah, well, um...
Brad Hamilton: I can probably get you in there. Just let me talk to Dennis Taylor.
 
2013-08-03 04:08:09 PM  
The problem is that housing has become incredibly expensive all across the country. Wages have been stagnant for a couple of decades, but housing costs have gone up something like 70%.

I live in Iowa, which has some of the cheapest housing in the country. 10 years ago, I was renting a decent 2 bedroom apartment for $465/month. That *exact same apartment* now rents for $725/month.  But wages havent' increased
 
2013-08-03 04:09:01 PM  

maramos:


I live in NYC and make $16 an hour, I'm nowhere near starving.


Being a fatty is still unhealthy
 
2013-08-03 04:09:09 PM  

LawrencePerson: If America continues to advance toward a European-sized, crony-capitalist, cradle-to-grave welfare state, expect European levels of bankruptcy, unemployment, and demographic decline.


Except for the fact that in most parts of Europe the welfare state works pretty well.
 
2013-08-03 04:09:46 PM  

vpb: jim32rr: Lived in Germany for a bit after exiting the Army, I found it interesting that in Germany, 'management and unions worked closely together in the interests of the common good. Indeed, by law all major German firms are required to set up Works Councils, where the bosses and the unions must work together 'in a spirit of mutual trust'.


Yes, and they still have a manufacturing based economy while we outsourced ours.


wtf are you talking about?
As of the data from 2010, the US was the number one manufacturer:
1.7T vs. China at 1.3T.

you may want to stop listening to Ed Schultz and Madow and actually try to understand what reality is.
 
2013-08-03 04:10:18 PM  

jim32rr: Lived in Germany for a bit after exiting the Army, I found it interesting that in Germany, 'management and unions worked closely together in the interests of the common good. Indeed, by law all major German firms are required to set up Works Councils, where the bosses and the unions must work together 'in a spirit of mutual trust'.


///words from a BBC story


No they do not have to set up Works Councils. The only time a company is required to do so is if a set number (I think it is either 2 or 3) request a vote on it. if a majority of the employees vote for it, then the company must support it.
 
2013-08-03 04:13:17 PM  
I think the time is finally right for Kodos to run on his formerly unpopular "Abortions for all!" platform!  Kodos 2016!!!!
 
2013-08-03 04:14:01 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: wtf are you talking about?


We're discussing manufacturing jobs.

Intel's automated factories produce quite a lot of chips that cost quite a lot of money.

What does that have to do with all those jobs that required laborers being move out of the country, though?
Nothing.
 
2013-08-03 04:15:53 PM  

ghostwind: jim32rr: Lived in Germany for a bit after exiting the Army, I found it interesting that in Germany, 'management and unions worked closely together in the interests of the common good. Indeed, by law all major German firms are required to set up Works Councils, where the bosses and the unions must work together 'in a spirit of mutual trust'.


///words from a BBC story

No they do not have to set up Works Councils. The only time a company is required to do so is if a set number (I think it is either 2 or 3) request a vote on it. if a majority of the employees vote for it, then the company must support it.



Yeah I think they meant large companies like Volkswagen AG, Siemens, Thyssenn Krupp and so on
 
2013-08-03 04:15:59 PM  

Parthenogenetic: miniflea: You know the science fiction trope that technology will reach a level where physical labor is all but eliminated and that society will become a sort of utopia where no one wants for anything and all are free to pursue the arts or some such?  I really think that the more likely scenario is that a few oligarchs will be super wealthy while the rest of us are living in crushing poverty.

There will still be a small middle class of engineers/technicians, and police/soldiers to keep the Morlocks at bay.  But yeah, they'll be vassals of the Eloi, and constantly threatened with being cast out of Paradise to face the teeming hordes that hate them as much as their masters.


I'm beginning to think movies like Elysium is not just for entertainment but rather a prophetic message. I mean if you look at the trend today it is highly likely something like that will be humanity's future.
 
2013-08-03 04:16:27 PM  

Outrageous Muff: It's only a failure if you make shiat money AND vote republican.


FourBlackBars: This is the perfect GOP economy: money flows up into the rentier class while the increasingly poor bottom votes Republican to keep the Mexicans and gays from ruining their lives.


LordJiro: So there are enough poor and desperate people. The GOP just needs to get those pesky minimum wage and workplace safety laws repealed, and corporations can FINALLY bring jobs back from China!


choo: Thanks, GOP!


Keep pointing fingers. It's all those OTHER guys' fault!! My team is good, their team is BAD!! Surely if we keep separating ourselves down some arbitrary ideological line and fighting everything the other half of the country wants tooth and nail regardless of merit, things will just fix themselves. And before some genius comes along and says "Both sides are bad, so vote Republican herpa derpa doo!!", no, both sides are not the same. If all you care about are your pet social issues while our economy continues to be held ransom by the rich and powerful, then keep cheering for your team. Our system is broken and absolutely, completely corrupted by big money interests. Yes, the GOP has gone largely off the rails lately and I'm not saying that social issues aren't important, but if you look at actual economic and regulatory legislation that has led us down this path, it has been a bipartisan effort. The only thing both sides can actually agree on is farking over Middle America to benefit themselves and/or their rich masters. Deregulation of Wall Street, Too Big To Fail, corporate personhood, failure to fix campaign finance laws, broken regulatory agencies with revolving doors of employees between the agencies and the entities they are supposed to be regulating, trade agreements that make it easier to ship jobs overseas and tax policies that encourage dumping US production for offshore operations, among MANY other things, ALL have broad bipartisan support. The GOP didn't do this all by themselves.

Yes, the Republican stance on many social issues is repugnant, and they openly fellate big business while giving the poor the finger. The Democrats like to talk big about helping the poor and the middle class, but they don't care any more about you than the Republicans do. They're just preaching to a different choir, so they have to sing a different tune. They like to talk tough about sticking it to the rich and big business but don't actually believe it. They sure as hell don't want to disrupt their OWN gravy train, or piss off the people who own them like chattel. The biggest difference in economic policy between the two parties is how much bullshiat you like in your shiat sandwich. But none of our disastrous economic policies are the Democrats' fault, it's all because REPUBLICANS ARE BIG MEAN POOPYHEADS!!

Whatever. Keep cheerleading for the Dems instead of having a serious conversation about true political reform. Maybe in another 10 years we'll get legal gay marriage and deregulation of pot, which would be cool. Gay spouses all over the country will be able smoke a doob together after their shift ends at Taco Bell and talk about how great the Democrats are before heading off to start their shift at Wal Mart. Personally, if I'm getting forcefully legitimate raped in the ass by 2 cocks, it really doesn't matter to me that one of them is slightly more enthusiastic about it. I'm still getting farked either way.
 
2013-08-03 04:19:17 PM  

mod3072: Keep cheerleading for the Dems instead of having a serious conversation about true political reform


thing is, the state of the economy and jobs is at the end of the day the doing of the private sector. And for many blaming the private sector for anything is a no go.
 
2013-08-03 04:19:24 PM  

Infernalist: The richest in this country have spent 40 years working hard to drag us back down to the glory years before The New Deal came along and 'now' you all seem surprised for some reason.


The fact that the results have been the opposite of what Ayn Rand et al promised is one they cannot process. They can choose between two hallucinatory psychoses : One, that they are or ever will be a member of the 1 or 2 percent of the population who have actually benefited from this, or, two, that all the things that the Reagan/Bush years brought us were somehow the work of "liberals".
 
2013-08-03 04:19:48 PM  

LawrencePerson: If America continues to advance toward a European-sized, crony-capitalist, cradle-to-grave welfare state, expect European levels of bankruptcy, unemployment, and demographic decline.

The future of America will look more and more like the present of Detroit and Greece.


It's a shame the United State doesn't have any control over its own currency! Yeah, exactly the same as Detroit and Greece..
 
2013-08-03 04:21:05 PM  
mod3072: Wall of text on the poor, poor persecuted GOP.

That's a lot of text just to say Both Sides are Bad so Vote Republican. Especially on the apologetics on the issues of social conservativism being what is killing the GOP.
 
2013-08-03 04:23:12 PM  

vpb: BunkyBrewman: We've been well aware that our entire economy is shifting to service based for at least a few decades now.

Yes, since we decided to shift it in that direction in the 80's.


Remember, this is being hyped as the flexible economy. Somehow the service based economy bends in every direction but upward mobility.
 
2013-08-03 04:25:16 PM  
America in decline.
 
2013-08-03 04:25:30 PM  

lousy screw: This is a serious question, not a polemic masked as one. It seems throughout our history before World War II the U.S. and, indeed, the world did not have a sizeable middle class. It was the haves and the have-nots, by and large, with a small middle- or merchant class.

After WWII, the American industrial machine ramped up exponentially, producing consumer goods, largely for a domestic market, produced by a well-paid, moderate- to low-skill workforce. Producers could afford to pay these wages because they were selling their products to a somewhat captive market at high prices.

Over time, with efficiencies in manufacturing processes and improved global transport systems, the American market was flooded with lower-cost goods produced in countries without American-style wage structures or worker-safety and environmental protections.

These and a number of other factors killed the American producer/consumer cycle that formed after the 1940s.

My questions are; was the economic structure that produced such a huge middle class in America a false one?

Was it all a pyramid scheme that was destined to collapse?


No, it took a LOT of hard work by scheming fast-buck corporate types and seditious, corrupt politicians to kill the US economic machine - and it took decades to achieve that goal.


lousy screw: Is the very notion of a free economy without huge wealth disparities even practical on a scale as big as the American one? Or is a new model conceivable that would put a healthy percentage of Americans back to work at good wages, without raping the environment and putting lives at risk?


It was possible - but that horse left the barn, wandered down the road and died many years ago.

As you alluded to above, it was the one-two punch that killed it: US Workers naturally wanted (and Unions helped them to get) better, safer working conditions, health and retirement benefits, etc, and decent living wages (the "middle class").

No problem.

Environmentally conscious and forward-thinking people naturally wanted tighter restrictions and controls placed on business to prevent pollution and other hazards for the benefit of man and nature.

Again, no big deal.

The PROBLEM was that these employee benefits and business restrictions drastically increased the costs of doing business - which wouldn't have necessarily been a problem - IF we had simultaneously enacted sensible import restrictions and tariffs that would have allowed US industries to remain competitive with imports from other countries that faced no similar mandates for better working conditions and pollution controls... but we didn't. We allowed foreign competitors to DUMP their products on the US market, and one by one, industries began to either fail, or to move their production facilities overseas in order to remain alive.

Steel and other heavy industries: Gone
Textiles industries: Gone
Consumer electronics manufacturing: Gone
Durable consumer goods manufacturing: Gone
Automobile industry: (See Detroit)
(etc)

Add to this ONE MORE nail: Kill all reasonable Guest Worker programs and replace them with lax, unenforced laws allowing "undocumented workers" to flood into the country (wink wink, nod nod) undercutting the wages in the construction and skilled trades, in manufacturing, and in the service industries.

The US economy and the middle class are not dying of "natural causes", but are the victims of intentional slow-poisoning by seditious, corrupt politicians - REPUBLICAN and DEMOCRAT, that have been intentionally enacting disastrous policies for decades in the service of a handful of pernicious special interest groups who have become massively fat by feeding on America's rotting carcass.

Future looks bright, though!
 
2013-08-03 04:27:19 PM  

Amos Quito: We allowed foreign competitors to DUMP their products on the US market, and one by one, industries began to either fail, or to move their production facilities overseas in order to remain alive.


Those industries you list either undid themselves or just relocated in the name of a bigger bottom line.
 
2013-08-03 04:28:06 PM  

jruland: hiring in retail means there's been an increase in consumption.



Consumption?

Yeah, and it's antibiotic resistant, too.
 
2013-08-03 04:35:14 PM  

Amos Quito: Vectron: Obviously we need more workers. Amnesty!


Yeah, the cool thing is that our new "guests" will be willing to flip those burgers at half the going wage.


It gets even better.

Last I heard the new arrivals don't count toward your 50 person limit on the new health care law (Obamacare)

So

1) They'll work cheaper
2) They work harder
3) You can give them full time jobs and it not push you over your 50 limit so that you have to spend all that money on health care.
4) There now legal to hire

Why would you hire a native born when you can get these guys? Fire the born heres and hire the new legal illegals.
 
2013-08-03 04:36:23 PM  

hardinparamedic: mod3072: Wall of text on the poor, poor persecuted GOP.

That's a lot of text just to say Both Sides are Bad so Vote Republican. Especially on the apologetics on the issues of social conservativism being what is killing the GOP.


Plenty of 'thanks, Obama' posts but he only picks the 'thanks, GOP' posts. Pretty much stopped reading there.

Yes, yes, Both Sides Are Bad. Some Sides Are More Bad Than Others isn't helping.
 
2013-08-03 04:37:16 PM  

CujoQuarrel: Amos Quito: Vectron: Obviously we need more workers. Amnesty!

4) There now legal to hire

There == They're


Preview preview preview ...........
 
2013-08-03 04:40:30 PM  
I'm a white collar worker, as was my father and grandfather.  I hate my office job.  I'm 30 years old and over-educated.  How does someone like me enter a trade?
 
2013-08-03 04:41:27 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Amos Quito: We allowed foreign competitors to DUMP their products on the US market, and one by one, industries began to either fail, or to move their production facilities overseas in order to remain alive.

Those industries you list either undid themselves or just relocated in the name of a bigger bottom line.



Bullshiat.

Most of those that died did so because they couldn't compete with foreign dumping.

Those that moved overseas did so because it was either that or DIE, because utilizing the cheap labor and non-existent environmental standards that their overseas competitors enjoyed was the ONLY way that they could remain competitive.

What do you suppose would have happened if the US govt would have applied sensible import restrictions tariffs? Would they have moved overseas? No, because with those tariffs n place, it would have been more profitable to stay right here and utilize US labor.

See?
 
2013-08-03 04:44:30 PM  
Here's the thing.

There are too many people who assume they are OWED a job/living/what have you.

Jobs are dying.

It doesn't take a three-digit IQ to see that work is being outsourced to either the third world or to automation. If you believe that you can survive by working in the future, you're not going to be around to realize that you were wrong.

Survival, much less success is less about what you do for work and more about what you create in terms of value. Do you personally produce anything of value? A product, a solution to a problem, an analysis of a trend that has been previously undiscovered? Those who are successful today do this very thing. They don't work, they create things that other people need and are willing to buy.

The harsh reality is that labor is a fungible commodity to be purchased at the lowest possible price so if you are expecting the government or business to value yours higher than someone or something else's, then you're going to be unpleasantly surprised.
 
2013-08-03 04:45:14 PM  

CujoQuarrel: Amos Quito: Vectron: Obviously we need more workers. Amnesty!


Yeah, the cool thing is that our new "guests" will be willing to flip those burgers at half the going wage.

It gets even better.

Last I heard the new arrivals don't count toward your 50 person limit on the new health care law (Obamacare)

So

1) They'll work cheaper
2) They work harder
3) You can give them full time jobs and it not push you over your 50 limit so that you have to spend all that money on health care.
4) There now legal to hire

Why would you hire a native born when you can get these guys? Fire the born heres and hire the new legal illegals.



Bonus:

Once the "new legals" are legal, it will open up a huge demand to fill the positions that they formerly occupied as illegals, so we'll have a brand new bumper crop of "undocumented workers" pouring over the borders to fill that demand.

VIVA IMMIGRATION REFORM!!!
 
2013-08-03 04:47:08 PM  

WhyteRaven74: mod3072: Keep cheerleading for the Dems instead of having a serious conversation about true political reform

thing is, the state of the economy and jobs is at the end of the day the doing of the private sector. And for many blaming the private sector for anything is a no go.


That's partially true, but public policy has a HUGE impact on the private sector. We can't force companies to create more jobs, but can craft, for example, tax and trade policies that don't encourage (or, ideally, that actively DIScourage) shipping good jobs overseas.
 
2013-08-03 04:48:47 PM  

mod3072: Outrageous Muff: It's only a failure if you make shiat money AND vote republican.

FourBlackBars: This is the perfect GOP economy: money flows up into the rentier class while the increasingly poor bottom votes Republican to keep the Mexicans and gays from ruining their lives.

LordJiro: So there are enough poor and desperate people. The GOP just needs to get those pesky minimum wage and workplace safety laws repealed, and corporations can FINALLY bring jobs back from China!

choo: Thanks, GOP!

Keep pointing fingers. It's all those OTHER guys' fault!! My team is good, their team is BAD!! Surely if we keep separating ourselves down some arbitrary ideological line and fighting everything the other half of the country wants tooth and nail regardless of merit, things will just fix themselves. And before some genius comes along and says "Both sides are bad, so vote Republican herpa derpa doo!!", no, both sides are not the same. If all you care about are your pet social issues while our economy continues to be held ransom by the rich and powerful, then keep cheering for your team. Our system is broken and absolutely, completely corrupted by big money interests. Yes, the GOP has gone largely off the rails lately and I'm not saying that social issues aren't important, but if you look at actual economic and regulatory legislation that has led us down this path, it has been a bipartisan effort. The only thing both sides can actually agree on is farking over Middle America to benefit themselves and/or their rich masters. Deregulation of Wall Street, Too Big To Fail, corporate personhood, failure to fix campaign finance laws, broken regulatory agencies with revolving doors of employees between the agencies and the entities they are supposed to be regulating, trade agreements that make it easier to ship jobs overseas and tax policies that encourage dumping US production for offshore operations, among MANY other things, ALL have broad bipartisan support. The GOP didn't do this al ...


That was pathetic. So basically we're getting screwed by corporations either way so let's choose the guys that are gonna turn the country into freaking Bible camp... because, yanno, whatever.

Idiot.
 
2013-08-03 04:50:35 PM  

Amos Quito: lousy screw: This is a serious question, not a polemic masked as one. It seems throughout our history before World War II the U.S. and, indeed, the world did not have a sizeable middle class. It was the haves and the have-nots, by and large, with a small middle- or merchant class.

After WWII, the American industrial machine ramped up exponentially, producing consumer goods, largely for a domestic market, produced by a well-paid, moderate- to low-skill workforce. Producers could afford to pay these wages because they were selling their products to a somewhat captive market at high prices.

Over time, with efficiencies in manufacturing processes and improved global transport systems, the American market was flooded with lower-cost goods produced in countries without American-style wage structures or worker-safety and environmental protections.

These and a number of other factors killed the American producer/consumer cycle that formed after the 1940s.

My questions are; was the economic structure that produced such a huge middle class in America a false one? Was it all a pyramid scheme that was destined to collapse?


No, it took a LOT of hard work by scheming fast-buck corporate types and seditious, corrupt politicians to kill the US economic machine - and it took decades to achieve that goal.


lousy screw: Is the very notion of a free economy without huge wealth disparities even practical on a scale as big as the American one? Or is a new model conceivable that would put a healthy percentage of Americans back to work at good wages, without raping the environment and putting lives at risk?

It was possible - but that horse left the barn, wandered down the road and died many years ago.

As you alluded to above, it was the one-two punch that killed it: US Workers naturally wanted (and Unions helped them to get) better, safer working conditions, health and retirement benefits, etc, and decent living wages (the "middle class").

No problem.

Environmentally conscious ...


The problem is that special interests are given the last word.

Let's look at health care, billions pumped into Congress and other places promoting our current system while the costs to the American consumer inflate to cover the override. What's the solution? Comprehensive single-payer as has been done by most of our Cold War allies? No, force every American in the country to buy health insurance from the Insurance industry, basically giving the keys to the people who made us pay 4-7x the cost of health care in other countries to begin with. This hurts the poor the most, simply because they have the least amount of money to spend on these things.

Let's look at environmental regulations: Back when the EPA was founded, smog was /terrible/. Not quite as terrible as, say, Beijing today, but it was harder to breath in places, like LA or Chicago. The EPA did good work to secure a healthier America in many ways. But ever since Obama came into office, they've used those laws to aggressively target politically unpopular segments of the economy, which has/will drive up costs of essentials like power, which will hurt the poor most of all. No efforts are made to ameliorate this, not even power tax credits for the poor.

Everywhere you look, this is what's happening in America. Single target interests set the knob to 11 and won't compromise in any way to get their vision of the future to come about and they pay enough money and get their interests attended to. Sure, big business isn't all that grand, but Congress needs to be cleaned first. They are supposed to be the gate keepers, but they are just as money-hungry as the senior management at companies and will accept cash to keep that gate wide open.

Or, if we are really okay with getting rid of the poor, we could just bring rats from Pandyssia. That should get rid of them all.
 
2013-08-03 04:51:34 PM  

mod3072: tax and trade policies that don't encourage (or, ideally, that actively DIScourage) shipping good jobs overseas.


And what exactly do you think Mr Romney did all those years over at Bain? That's your savior? I don't particularly like the O man either but holy cripes... magic underwear guy? Really?!
 
2013-08-03 04:56:39 PM  

BullBearMS: tenpoundsofcheese: wtf are you talking about?

We're discussing manufacturing jobs.

Intel's automated factories produce quite a lot of chips that cost quite a lot of money.


So you want Intel to have people produce those chips by hand using teeny tiny tweezers?
 
2013-08-03 04:58:17 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: So you want Intel to have people produce those chips by hand using teeny tiny tweezers?


No, dummy. That's what the de-bigganator is for!
 
2013-08-03 05:01:44 PM  

Arsten: The problem is that special interests are given the last word.

Let's look at health care, billions pumped into Congress and other places promoting our current system while the costs to the American consumer inflate to cover the override. What's the solution? Comprehensive single-payer as has been done by most of our Cold War allies? No, force every American in the country to buy health insurance from the Insurance industry, basically giving the keys to the people who made us pay 4-7x the cost of health care in other countries to begin with. This hurts the poor the most, simply because they have the least amount of money to spend on these things.

Let's look at environmental regulations: Back when the EPA was founded, smog was /terrible/. Not quite as terrible as, say, Beijing today, but it was harder to breath in places, like LA or Chicago. The EPA did good work to secure a healthier America in many ways. But ever since Obama came into office, they've used those laws to aggressively target politically unpopular segments of the economy, which has/will drive up costs of essentials like power, which will hurt the poor most of all. No efforts are made to ameliorate this, not even power tax credits for the poor.

Everywhere you look, this is what's happening in America. Single target interests set the knob to 11 and won't compromise in any way to get their vision of the future to come about and they pay enough money and get their interests attended to. Sure, big business isn't all that grand, but Congress needs to be cleaned first. They are supposed to be the gate keepers, but they are just as money-hungry as the senior management at companies and will accept cash to keep that gate wide open.



Indeed.

The problem is not that there are special interest groups that will happily sacrifice America for their own personal gain, the problem is that they need corrupt, slimebag politicians to HELP them to fark American interests over - and that the corrupt, treasonous politicians are ALL TOO HAPPY to oblige.

You will ALWAYS have greedy SOB's trying to fark the public over - that's a given.

Where we, the public have failed is in our duty to hold the corrupt, treasonous politicians PAINFULLY accountable for their seditious collusion with the greedy bastards.

So much rope to be stretched - so little time.
 
2013-08-03 05:03:16 PM  
The data disappointed Wall Street economists but are consistent with the trends Dan Alpert, managing partner at Westwood Capital, cited in a recent report: "The fact is that the U.S. employment situation is more of a wounded beast than a bull," he writes.

Perhaps if these so-called Wizards of Wall St weren't so farking greedy, making their billions by just repackaging / reselling financial instruments instead of creating real value...
 
2013-08-03 05:07:21 PM  

here to help: mod3072: tax and trade policies that don't encourage (or, ideally, that actively DIScourage) shipping good jobs overseas.

And what exactly do you think Mr Romney did all those years over at Bain?


He invested in companies.
IIRC he only operated Bain and no other companies.

But Romney isn't President.  We do have a President who is giving one of the world's richest men, a non American, all that money for the Obamaphones.

But that is okay to send that money and those jobs out of the country.
 
2013-08-03 05:09:45 PM  

sigdiamond2000: "The world needs ditch diggers. Not everyone is a special snowflake."

"I'm a ditch digger. "

"LOL you f*ckin loser!"


You don't actually know how much ditch diggers get paid do you? Protip: It's far higher than minimum wage.
 
2013-08-03 05:13:22 PM  

Amos Quito: Where we, the public have failed is in our duty to hold the corrupt, treasonous politicians PAINFULLY accountable for their seditious collusion with the greedy bastards.

So much rope to be stretched - so little time.


If anything, the French Revolution taught us also that there will be people like you, just waiting to form Committees on the Public Safety, and keep order too. I mean, sure thousands of innocent people die.

Trading one form of Tyranny for another. That's the ironic comedy of people who are all too eager to force everyone else against the wall for the revolution.

/those people would also do well to remember what happened to Robbspierre.
 
2013-08-03 05:13:22 PM  
The dems have done a brilliant job getting their minions to accept that 7.4% unemployment with declining wages, more people underemployed, more people quitting the work force, more part time jobs is a wonderful thing that they should be happy about.
 
2013-08-03 05:13:32 PM  

hardinparamedic: mod3072: Wall of text on the poor, poor persecuted GOP.

That's a lot of text just to say Both Sides are Bad so Vote Republican. Especially on the apologetics on the issues of social conservativism being what is killing the GOP.


Congratulation on being the first MENSA member to come along and say exactly what I predicted that you would say in my post (which you obviously either didn't read or didn't understand). I'm not apologizing for the GOP, and that entire party can go fark themselves with a rusty chainsaw as far as I'm concerned. It's interesting that you interpret ANY criticism of the Golden Party to be a full-throated endorsement of the GOP (even though I bashed the GOP far harder than the DNC in my post), and then go ahead and just make some random assumptions about my political affiliation and how I feel persecuted because of them or something. Good call.

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Plenty of 'thanks, Obama' posts but he only picks the 'thanks, GOP' posts. Pretty much stopped reading there.

Yes, yes, Both Sides Are Bad. Some Sides Are More Bad Than Others isn't helping.


Your first point is certainly valid, and the finger-pointing does no good whether it's pointing to the left or the right. I did not intend to imply that this is a one-sided problem. In my defense, the "Thanks, Obama" posts on Fark tend to be more sarcastic in nature, while putting the full blame on the GOP is standard Fark fare. Not that we don't have those who blame Obama for every bad thing ever, which is equally retarded. Oh, and "Both Sides Are Bad.Some Sides Are More Bad Than Others isn't helping."is pretty much exactly the point that I was trying to make. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

But, hey, let's keep fighting each other while we get robbed by both sides. That's exactly what the people who run this country want. Divide and conquer is a very effective strategy, and it has been working wonderfully for them. It keeps us distracted while they sell our future to the highest bidder and enrich themselves at our expense.
 
2013-08-03 05:14:22 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: here to help: mod3072: tax and trade policies that don't encourage (or, ideally, that actively DIScourage) shipping good jobs overseas.

And what exactly do you think Mr Romney did all those years over at Bain?

He invested in companies.
IIRC he only operated Bain and no other companies.

But Romney isn't President.  We do have a President who is giving one of the world's richest men, a non American, all that money for the Obamaphones.

But that is okay to send that money and those jobs out of the country.


And tenpounds earns another 50 cents. You, sir, are living the American dream. Not sure what the problem is.
 
2013-08-03 05:15:23 PM  

mod3072: Congratulation on being the first MENSA member to come along and say exactly what I predicted that you would say in my post (which you obviously either didn't read or didn't understand). I'm not apologizing for the GOP, and that entire party can go fark themselves with a rusty chainsaw as far as I'm concerned. It's interesting that you interpret ANY criticism of the Golden Party to be a full-throated endorsement of the GOP (even though I bashed the GOP far harder than the DNC in my post), and then go ahead and just make some random assumptions about my political affiliation and how I feel persecuted because of them or something. Good call.


www.famousquotesabout.com
 
2013-08-03 05:15:52 PM  

runwiz: the stock market is at a record high.  This is exactly as intended.  As for the rest of us...


This is one of the things that gets me about FARK: the victim mentality.

Anyone can invest in the stock market successfully. Yes, ANYONE.

Even with The Great Recession, the S&P 500 returned about 7 1/4% annualized return over the last 10 years (including dividends, not adjusted for inflation):

http://dqydj.net/sp-500-return-calculator/

If you saved a mere $50/month ($25/paycheck) over those 10 years and you invested it in the S&P 500 via an index fund or ETF, you would now have $8,883.78:

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/simple-savings-calculato r. aspx

Not enough to quit your burger-flipping job, but way better than NOTHING.  And raise that to $100/month over 30 years and watch what happens.

Take control of your personal finances, FARKers. Sure, "the man" may indeed be trying to screw you over, but you can make things a little better for yourself with a bit of sacrifice and planning.
 
2013-08-03 05:15:57 PM  

mod3072: even though I bashed the GOP far harder than the DNC in my post


No you didn't.
 
2013-08-03 05:16:10 PM  
And those burger flippers should all be kissing my ass because I'D LIKE FRIES WITH THAT.
 
2013-08-03 05:17:21 PM  

here to help: That was pathetic. So basically we're getting screwed by corporations either way so let's choose the guys that are gonna turn the country into freaking Bible camp... because, yanno, whatever.

Idiot.


I never, anywhere in my post, suggested or implied that anyone should vote for Republicans. Idiot.
 
2013-08-03 05:18:35 PM  

Amos Quito: CujoQuarrel: Amos Quito: Vectron: Obviously we need more workers. Amnesty!


Yeah, the cool thing is that our new "guests" will be willing to flip those burgers at half the going wage.

It gets even better.

Last I heard the new arrivals don't count toward your 50 person limit on the new health care law (Obamacare)

So

1) They'll work cheaper
2) They work harder
3) You can give them full time jobs and it not push you over your 50 limit so that you have to spend all that money on health care.
4) There now legal to hire

Why would you hire a native born when you can get these guys? Fire the born heres and hire the new legal illegals.


Bonus:

Once the "new legals" are legal, it will open up a huge demand to fill the positions that they formerly occupied as illegals, so we'll have a brand new bumper crop of "undocumented workers" pouring over the borders to fill that demand.

VIVA IMMIGRATION REFORM!!!


I hear those god damn Irish are taking a lot of our jobs too.
 
2013-08-03 05:21:35 PM  

que.guero: Here's the thing.

There are too many people who assume they are OWED a job/living/what have you.

Jobs are dying.

It doesn't take a three-digit IQ to see that work is being outsourced to either the third world or to automation. If you believe that you can survive by working in the future, you're not going to be around to realize that you were wrong.


Due to rising wages in china and other developing countries manufacturing jobs are coming back over.
 
2013-08-03 05:22:03 PM  

here to help: mod3072: tax and trade policies that don't encourage (or, ideally, that actively DIScourage) shipping good jobs overseas.

And what exactly do you think Mr Romney did all those years over at Bain? That's your savior? I don't particularly like the O man either but holy cripes... magic underwear guy? Really?!


Where exactly in my post did I endorse Mitt Romney or the Republican party? What the fark is so hard for you people to understand? I hate BOTH parties. There wasn't a good option for president (or for pretty ANY federal political office), and there never is, and there never will be so long as the proles continue to support either one of the two major parties because, well, the other side is worse. So obviously I think everyone should vote Republican. That makes perfect sense, I guess.
 
2013-08-03 05:23:28 PM  

here to help: mod3072: even though I bashed the GOP far harder than the DNC in my post

No you didn't.


Well, I said that both sides suck on economics, but the Republicans are worse on social issues. So yeah, I did.
 
2013-08-03 05:25:19 PM  

mod3072: Where exactly in my post did I endorse Mitt Romney or the Republican party? What the fark is so hard for you people to understand? I hate BOTH parties. There wasn't a good option for president (or for pretty ANY federal political office), and there never is, and there never will be so long as the proles continue to support either one of the two major parties because, well, the other side is worse. So obviously I think everyone should vote Republican. That makes perfect sense, I guess.


Well for someone who wasn't endorsing Republicans over Dems you sure managed to get a lot of people under the impression you were.

Yes, it's us that must be confused.
 
2013-08-03 05:26:41 PM  

ReapTheChaos: seadoo2006: [fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net image 452x433]

That's the biggest crock of shiat I've ever read in my life.


Awh, you mad? Seriously, if we just ended the child tax gift and gave it to the millions of people who don't really want to work, it'd be a complete wash anyways.  Instead, we (the non-child-bearing public) reward people for having sex (wow, like that's hard) and buying houses (congrats, you bought a house, now why am I supporting you doing so?) ...

Why not reward people who choose to do what they WANT instead of forcing people to work $8/hour jobs slinging burgers at a retarded public?  I'd love to make movies and shoot films in my life, but I've realized short of being in a select few people, that will never, ever happen.

I'd love to learn how to fly a plane, but I couldn't afford to do so even if I were to devote everything I make to doing so.

Why not let people live the way they want to give and give everyone a modest place to start from.  A cheap place to live, enough food to survive, and basic medical care for everyone aren't things we couldn't afford to do ...
 
2013-08-03 05:28:34 PM  

mod3072: Well, I said that both sides suck on economics


Please proceed, governor.
 
2013-08-03 05:29:07 PM  

here to help: Well for someone who wasn't endorsing Republicans over Dems you sure managed to get a lot of people under the impression you were.

Yes, it's us that must be confused.


I'm going with concern troll.
 
2013-08-03 05:30:15 PM  

hardinparamedic: I'm going with concern troll.


pfft... that's MY job!
 
2013-08-03 05:31:31 PM  

here to help: hardinparamedic: I'm going with concern troll.

pfft... that's MY job!


HE TOOK YER JARB!
 
2013-08-03 05:33:13 PM  

hardinparamedic: HE TOOK YER JARB!


Filthy illegal trolls. We should build a wall.
 
2013-08-03 05:35:01 PM  
I'd just like to add in, even though globalization is a very large issue that has allowed this to happen, I would also add in the U.S. not continuing to expand on infrastructure in a meaningful way is also part of the problem. Developing nations are pretty much on par now with the U.S. as far as road/rail,electrical and internet. We've also cut back or not progressed on education which is a form of infrastructure as far as the nation goes.

/Just my 2 cents
 
2013-08-03 05:35:10 PM  

sigdiamond2000: "The world needs ditch diggers. Not everyone is a special snowflake."

"I'm a ditch digger. "

"LOL you f*ckin loser!"


This attitude is everything that is wrong with America.
Well, maybe not everything, but it's a huge problem.
 
2013-08-03 05:36:26 PM  

ReapTheChaos: "These jobs, which account for 33% of all private sector jobs, pay an average of $15.80 per hour."

$15.80 an hour is a pretty decent wage in most places. You wont live like a king, but you'll manage. The problem is people are spoiled. They think they need to drive a new car, have the best furnishings in their house, $80 a month cable Tv on their 50" flat screens, $200 cell phones with a $75 monthly plan and a slew of other crap that you can live without.

Hell, $15.80 an hour is more than I'm making.



Let's make a budget here:

$15.80 an hour is $2,717.60 gross for a month at 40 hours a week

Equates to a take home of approximately $2,038.20

Now let's add in some expenses:
Rent:  $750
Household:  $433 ($100/wk for food, household, toiletries)
Fuel:  $100
Auto Insurance: $100
Health Insurance: $400
Utilities:  $100

That puts us at $1,883
Now you want to have the ability to actually have a life, OK

Phone+Internet: $75 ;yes, you could get by without internet and just having a phone, but you wouldn't be here then now would you
Lunch out once a week or going to the bar twice a month or going to see a ball game once a month or going to the symphony every other month: $50

Now we're up to $2,008, or $30 dollars left over to maintain the car and buy clothing and such.

Where can we pare this down.  Let's see, we could ditch the car if we lived in a more urban area.  So we can get rid of fuel and car insurance, but our rent would go up to $950, and we'd need to spend $75/mo on a transit pass.  That's a losing proposition.

We can move to a rural area, drop rent to $500/mo, but pay another $100/mo in fuel, $50 a month in utilities (those cheap places in rural areas are always poorly insulated and have crap appliances).  That does add a bit, but you're sacrificing 2 hrs a day, or 10 hours a week, or 43 hours a month of your life in commuting.  That's more than a week's worth of work for saving that money.  If you need to you can do it and work out on the plus side.  Be aware that your personal life will suffer and your health will suffer.   Thursday will come and you'll be buying lunch because you woke up too damn late to make it yourself, so add another $25/mo there.

We can move to the ghetto.  Bus service will be spotty at best (giving you that wonderful hour commute like in a rural area if you decide to ditch the car as below) and you can up your car insurance by $30 a month.  Rent will be $400, but you'll spend more money eating out because who wants to go home to the ghetto, so add another $100 to that budget.  Same issue applies with the utilities, and extra $50 because you live on top floor of a house with windows that are so loose the newspaper blows off the table when the wind blows in the winter.  Factor in an additional $20/mo for getting rolled for your rent money while you're taking a shower in the shared bathroom.  You could theoretically lose the car in the ghetto, so you can take the insurance off of it, but again, $230 for fuel/insurance vs $75 for the bus pass and an additional $100/mo for food (because now you're limited to what's available in the ghetto), and that's not really a great option either.

So, a roommate.  Cut your rent in half, and cut your utilities by a third (because that bastard takes 2 hour showers and leaves every goddamned light on) and increase your food by 1/3 (those were MY chicken nuggets), and your eating out budget to $150 a month (how many times do I have to come home to find not a clean dish anywhere?  Guess it's pizza again) and your fuel budget by $50 (why does he always need a goddamned ride?)... Hrmm, that sounds like it loses too.

Or you could be that scumbag roommate who eats the other guys food and schemes rides off of him n'at.  You could move in with your current SO, and just replace a third of your stuff every two years when they flip out and leave (avg).

Or you could start a business building guillotines.  We'll need them soon.
 
2013-08-03 05:38:32 PM  
Speak for yourself...I clean your clogged drains full of corn-filled shiat and gray pubic hair.

...but at $80/hr, I do it with a smile.
 
2013-08-03 05:42:38 PM  
GUTSU:
Due to rising wages in china and other developing countries manufacturing jobs are coming back over.

That temporary and/or influence from people trying to buy American-made goods, recently.

With China's wages growing higher, manufacturing is starting to invest in other countries. Last I read, there's 14 or so countries that might come up behind China and be the manufacturing cess pool that China used to be. Some of them are already getting some cash infusions to build plants and the like. About half of them are getting the investment curve that China was getting in the late 70's / early 80's.
 
2013-08-03 05:44:37 PM  

hardinparamedic: mod3072: Congratulation on being the first MENSA member to come along and say exactly what I predicted that you would say in my post (which you obviously either didn't read or didn't understand). I'm not apologizing for the GOP, and that entire party can go fark themselves with a rusty chainsaw as far as I'm concerned. It's interesting that you interpret ANY criticism of the Golden Party to be a full-throated endorsement of the GOP (even though I bashed the GOP far harder than the DNC in my post), and then go ahead and just make some random assumptions about my political affiliation and how I feel persecuted because of them or something. Good call.

[www.famousquotesabout.com image 400x300]


Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
 
2013-08-03 05:46:37 PM  

mod3072: Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!


Except I saw very little "bashing" of the republican party - as did many other people - and plenty of deflection of blame onto the "other guys" while doing the same thing you accused everyone you quoted in this thread as doing.

Hence, either you completely suck at explaining your position, or you're concern trolling. Which is it?
 
2013-08-03 05:58:24 PM  

here to help: Well for someone who wasn't endorsing Republicans over Dems you sure managed to get a lot of people under the impression you were.

Yes, it's us that must be confused.


Your preconceived notion that anything less than falling on your face in complete adoration of the Democratic party is tacit endorsement of the opposition party is the source of your confusion. I said the Dems weren't sent down from on high to save mankind, so obviously I love Republicans. You are exactly the kind of person my post was about. You seem to live in a black-and-white world where you are either one or the other, and if I'm one and you are the other, then we must be mortal enemies. Just keep blindly voting for the person with the right letter behind their name. That should fix everything.
 
2013-08-03 06:01:50 PM  

mod3072: Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!


Okay... I'll ignore what I perceived as an endorsement for the pubs. So aside from that you went to great lengths to tell us all how much we slobber over dem cock. The Farkers in general are totally brainwashed by the dems to march in lockstep and we are nothing but subserviant sheeple to the 0bamster.

The thing is... I'm here pretty much every day... even if I'm not posting. Even the libbiest libs on here don't do that. They have plenty of complaints and poor opinions about the current administration. These guys may be derp farmers but they aren't actually dumb. So even ignoring the fact it did indeed appear you were endorsing the republican party you were still using a common right wing tactic of making anyone who even THINKS of voting democratic as mindless sheep.

It simply is not true. The reality is most are not happy with that party but the other guys are indeed WAY worse. Like freaking nutsoid, sell us all into slavery, launch large scale global conflicts next WEEK kind of worse.

You think they are the same? On some things sure. They both obey money masters. They both think of themselves before the people. But they are so different and so many OTHER ways that any thinking person with an ounce of human compassion don't even see the right wing as a viable alternative.

It is insulting to say those people are blind and brainwashed. They just have no other choice.

Capicheka? Now run along to your clever boys club meeting. Don't want to keep them waiting.
 
2013-08-03 06:10:04 PM  
i521.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-03 06:11:18 PM  

fatassbastard: If you saved a mere $50/month ($25/paycheck) over those 10 years and you invested it in the S&P 500 via an index fund or ETF, you would now have $8,883.78:

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/simple-savings-calculato r. aspx


So for $6000 ($50 * 120), I get a whopping return of $2883.78? I'M RICH! I'M MITT ROMNEY!
 
2013-08-03 06:11:23 PM  
lohphat:

[www.myconfinedspace.com image 640x552]
/never gets old



shiat. Sorry.
 
2013-08-03 06:12:40 PM  

hardinparamedic: mod3072: Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Except I saw very little "bashing" of the republican party - as did many other people - and plenty of deflection of blame onto the "other guys" while doing the same thing you accused everyone you quoted in this thread as doing.

Hence, either you completely suck at explaining your position, or you're concern trolling. Which is it?


I don't blame either party over the other for our economic situation. As I said, most of the economic policies that have screwed over the middle class have broad BIPARTISAN support. I was responding specifically to three posts that seemed to blame the entirety of our economic woes on the Republican party, so that is how I approached the subject. I could have picked three posts that were blaming the Democrats or Obama and said pretty much the same thing but emphasizing how Republicans are just as eager to screw you over as the Democrats are, but I think that would have been a little redundant. I've been in enough Fark Politics threads to realize that it is already widely accepted by most people here that Republicans are more than willing to fark over the country if it puts another dime in their own pockets, so I chose to focus more on the Democrats.
 
2013-08-03 06:14:45 PM  
My area is currently putting up some new swanky hotels, a country club, and a marina, justifying it by "Think of all the jobs!"

When in reality, it's just a bunch of rich people wanting more perks for themselves and telling the locals how lucky they are to have the chance to build it for them, maintain it for them, and wait on them while they're utilizing it.
 
2013-08-03 06:15:16 PM  

mod3072: Your preconceived notion that anything less than falling on your face in complete adoration of the Democratic party is tacit endorsement of the opposition party is the source of your confusion. I said the Dems weren't sent down from on high to save mankind, so obviously I love Republicans. You are exactly the kind of person my post was about. You seem to live in a black-and-white world where you are either one or the other, and if I'm one and you are the other, then we must be mortal enemies. Just keep blindly voting for the person with the right letter behind their name. That should fix everything.


lol... you managed to eke that in there as I was typing.

BTW... I'm not a Democrat. Couldn't be one even if I wanted to.
 
2013-08-03 06:15:58 PM  

fatassbastard: Anyone can invest in the stock market successfully. Yes, ANYONE.


The rich and established have the edge, though. Its very well documented.

Also, LOL at the 6-8000 over 10 YEARS.
 
2013-08-03 06:16:29 PM  

mod3072: I don't blame either party over the other for our economic situation.


You should.
 
2013-08-03 06:20:26 PM  

here to help: mod3072: Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Okay... I'll ignore what I perceived as an endorsement for the pubs. So aside from that you went to great lengths to tell us all how much we slobber over dem cock. The Farkers in general are totally brainwashed by the dems to march in lockstep and we are nothing but subserviant sheeple to the 0bamster.

The thing is... I'm here pretty much every day... even if I'm not posting. Even the libbiest libs on here don't do that. They have plenty of complaints and poor opinions about the current administration. These guys may be derp farmers but they aren't actually dumb. So even ignoring the fact it did indeed appear you were endorsing the republican party you were still using a common right wing tactic of making anyone who even THINKS of voting democratic as mindless sheep.

It simply is not true. The reality is most are not happy with that party but the other guys are indeed WAY worse. Like freaking nutsoid, sell us all into slavery, launch large scale global conflicts next WEEK kind of worse.

You think they are the same? On some things sure. They both obey money masters. They both think of themselves before the people. But they are so different and so many OTHER ways that any thinking person with an ounce of human compassion don't even see the right wing as a viable alternative.

It is insulting to say those people are blind and brainwashed. They just have no other choice.

Capicheka? Now run along to your clever boys club meeting. Don't want to keep them waiting.


So very true, and well said.
Also I seriously doubt most people that vote for Dems do so blindly. Does this country need political reform sure, but who's gonna do it? I'd like to see a true liberal party emerge but well that isn't happening anytime soon.
/Saying both side are bad has been a sorta code to try and get people to vote Republican for a long time.
 
2013-08-03 06:21:49 PM  

silvervial: But the pendulum is going to swing back hard soon. The New Deal was mostly able to be put into place because a lot of wise people feared socialism, real socialism not the boogy man created by the teahadists. They realized there would be a revolution in this country if they didn't give some sops to the poor/working class, so they did. And it worked. It has ceased working because so much has been dismantled.

There is no pendulum; the people who control the country don't need us anymore because everything they do need can be provided by people in China, India, in Southeast Asia or wherever currency exchange rates and a lack of regulations allow them to pay pennies for labor. These people don't care if we threaten to stop slinging burgers, cleaning each other's clothes or whatever job is hot in the vaunted 'Service Economy' this month, none of that affects them.  Unions and the work that made them viable were the only influence the general public ever had and with their death so too died the ability of the populace to effect change upon our economic situation.

The country is in decline and it isn't going to get better until the whole thing collapses and people lose their bread and circuses and that probably won't happen within the lifetime of anyone living today. The pendulum is gone.

But on the bright side we'll still have kittens.



i.imgur.com
 
2013-08-03 06:22:21 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: So very true, and well said.


Except of course for the ridiculous typos. Heh. That's what I get for cooking and posting at the same time.

Danka.

;-)
 
2013-08-03 06:24:19 PM  

hardinparamedic: Amos Quito: Where we, the public have failed is in our duty to hold the corrupt, treasonous politicians PAINFULLY accountable for their seditious collusion with the greedy bastards.

So much rope to be stretched - so little time.

If anything, the French Revolution taught us also that there will be people like you, just waiting to form Committees on the Public Safety, and keep order too. I mean, sure thousands of innocent people die.



"And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgment of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song"
-- The Who

"A Republic, if you can keep it."
-- Benjamin Franklin
 "God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion. The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty."

-- Thomas Jefferson


hardinparamedic: Trading one form of Tyranny for another. That's the ironic comedy of people who are all too eager to force everyone else against the wall for the revolution.

/those people would also do well to remember what happened to Robbspierre.



Okay fine.

Just carry on under the delusion that your government is ultimately benevolent, there is a meaningful difference between the "Left" and the "Right", and that things will just keep getting better and better if we will ONLY allow those that govern unlimited power.

So far so good, right?
 
2013-08-03 06:25:10 PM  

mod3072: hardinparamedic: mod3072: Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Except I saw very little "bashing" of the republican party - as did many other people - and plenty of deflection of blame onto the "other guys" while doing the same thing you accused everyone you quoted in this thread as doing.

Hence, either you completely suck at explaining your position, or you're concern trolling. Which is it?

I don't blame either party over the other for our economic situation. As I said, most of the economic policies that have screwed over the middle class have broad BIPARTISAN support. I was responding specifically to three posts that seemed to blame the entirety of our economic woes on the Republican party, so that is how I approached the subject. I could have picked three posts that were blaming the Democrats or Obama and said pretty much the same thing but emphasizing how Republicans are just as eager to screw you over as the Democrats are, but I think that would have been a little redundant. I've been in enough Fark Politics threads to realize that it is already widely accepted by most people here that Republicans are more than willing to fark over the country if it puts another dime in their own pockets, so I chose to focus more on the Democrats.


I'm guessing you're still in college, pretty young and really don't remember all the things that have happened and why over the years.
 
2013-08-03 06:30:53 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I always wondered how a country can have a gross national product once they've stopped actually producing anything


That's nonsense. There are lots of ways to add value -- shaping and joining bits of material is not the only option. For most of the history of civilization manufacturing was only a viable source of revenue for a tiny proportion of the population.

Try the same sentiment from an agricultural perspective:
I always wondered how a country can have a gross national product once most of the people stop farming

Or from a natural resources perspective:
I always wondered how a country can have a gross national product once they're run out of resources to dig out of the ground

Or from a mercantile perspective:
I always wondered how a country can have a gross national product once global trade is readily accessible

The leading economies in the world have weathered all of those transitions mostly unscathed. Society changed and power reshuffled, but successful economies of the past are still successful today despite massive differences in the basis of their value. The idea that this change is the one true economic disaster that's unlike all the previous changes is nothing more than hubris and a lack of imagination.
 
2013-08-03 06:33:31 PM  

here to help: You think they are the same? On some things sure. They both obey money masters. They both think of themselves before the people. But they are so different and so many OTHER ways that any thinking person with an ounce of human compassion don't even see the right wing as a viable alternative.


I don't think we are as far apart on this as it may seem. You just seem more willing to throw up your hands and support a party that you know does not have your best interests at heart. As long as both sides continue to support the major parties out of fear of the other side, nothing will ever change. I'm not saying that it's easy, or that there is a quick, simple solution. I'm just saying that voting for one side because you are terrified of the other is only going to perpetuate the problem. That's how the entrenched parties stay entrenched. Republicans convince their base that if they don't vote for them, the scary gays are going to take over and socialize our Muslim terrorist abortions. Or something. I don't know, it's mostly buzzwords. You adequately explained yourself how the Democrats keep the base voting for them. We need a viable third party and some comprehensive campaign finance reform. Easy to say and hard to do, I realize that. But if enough people get disenfranchised by the 2 party system, anything is possible. Not likely, but possible.

Capicheka? Now run along to your clever boys club meeting. Don't want to keep them waiting.

Typical. Treat any differing point of view as merit-less and childish. I've had fun arguing with you all, but it's finally dried up outside and my lawn isn't going to mow itself. Try not to fall off of your high horse and hurt yourself while I'm gone. I'll pop in later to catch up on the insults hurled my way, so feel free to let them fly.
 
2013-08-03 06:33:38 PM  

Amos Quito: Just carry on under the delusion that your government is ultimately benevolent, there is a meaningful difference between the "Left" and the "Right", and that things will just keep getting better and better if we will ONLY allow those that govern unlimited power.

So far so good, right?


Nice reducto ad absurdum. I'm speaking specifically of you and YOUR agitprop there, Napoleon.

I don't carry on under any delusions that our current government isn't a corrupt and wasteful entity. But I also don't harbor delusions that people like you are any better than the previous monster.  People who masturbate over the spilling of blood and revolution are the first to turn on those who bring them into power in the first place. This has been the rule for all of the leaders through history who have promised with violent revolution to save us from our tyrant masters should we put them in the halls of power. Especially those are willing to create an enemy to focus the vitriol and hatred of the masses upon as blame for their own miseries.

Your history of creating blame-ridden boogymen based on race and creed should put you last to open your mouth up about it.

It's simply the charismatic repeating history over and over. The serpent in the Garden with the golden tongue, so to speak.

The kind of people who have use of you until you have no use, and then cast you aside or turn you into one of the boogymen yourself.
 
2013-08-03 06:34:45 PM  

here to help: tinfoil-hat maggie: So very true, and well said.

Except of course for the ridiculous typos. Heh. That's what I get for cooking and posting at the same time.

Danka.

;-)


Meh, typo's be damned I started drinking early and well I'm sure I'll make my fair share : )
 
2013-08-03 06:36:14 PM  

way south: You asked for jobs. Its your fault for not being specific.


Does anybody happen to know how they quantify the jobs figure? Is each "job" in the real world equal to one "job" on the report regardless of what the job is? Or has the term been defined to mean something specific like "one job equals 40 hours at $10 per hour" so that there can be an apples to apples comparison?

I wouldn't put any weight in a report that would think there was no net effect on jobs if an engineer job at $60/hr disappears and a toe painting job is created that makes minimum wage.
 
2013-08-03 06:37:12 PM  
College may not be the best choice for everyone, but vocational training and certificates can take people far away from these low-end jobs. I bussed tables for 4 years in my early twenties for $4.25 an hour. Only after I put myself through a two year program did my career move anywhere.
 
2013-08-03 06:40:40 PM  

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: fatassbastard: If you saved a mere $50/month ($25/paycheck) over those 10 years and you invested it in the S&P 500 via an index fund or ETF, you would now have $8,883.78:

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/simple-savings-calculato r. aspx

So for $6000 ($50 * 120), I get a whopping return of $2883.78? I'M RICH! I'M MITT ROMNEY!


Yeah and that's assuming you've never had to dip in to that savings for a big insurance co-payment or a broken A/C or your car breaking down or some a$$hole backing in to it while doing an 18 point turn and driving off because fark you that's why or you landlord increasing your rent or your friend dies or gets married or or or...If all you can afford to save is $25 every 2 weeks, these little life nuisances are going to eat away at any savings real quick. When the question food/car/healthcare vs savings account, the immediate thing wins.
 
2013-08-03 06:43:11 PM  

mod3072: here to help: You think they are the same? On some things sure. They both obey money masters. They both think of themselves before the people. But they are so different and so many OTHER ways that any thinking person with an ounce of human compassion don't even see the right wing as a viable alternative.

I don't think we are as far apart on this as it may seem. You just seem more willing to throw up your hands and support a party that you know does not have your best interests at heart. As long as both sides continue to support the major parties out of fear of the other side, nothing will ever change. I'm not saying that it's easy, or that there is a quick, simple solution. I'm just saying that voting for one side because you are terrified of the other is only going to perpetuate the problem. That's how the entrenched parties stay entrenched. Republicans convince their base that if they don't vote for them, the scary gays are going to take over and socialize our Muslim terrorist abortions. Or something. I don't know, it's mostly buzzwords. You adequately explained yourself how the Democrats keep the base voting for them. We need a viable third party and some comprehensive campaign finance reform. Easy to say and hard to do, I realize that. But if enough people get disenfranchised by the 2 party system, anything is possible. Not likely, but possible.

Capicheka? Now run along to your clever boys club meeting. Don't want to keep them waiting.

Typical. Treat any differing point of view as merit-less and childish. I've had fun arguing with you all, but it's finally dried up outside and my lawn isn't going to mow itself. Try not to fall off of your high horse and hurt yourself while I'm gone. I'll pop in later to catch up on the insults hurled my way, so feel free to let them fly.


So all the people voting Democrat to avoid become a third world theocracy should just stop voting until something better comes along? I don't think you've thought your cunning plan all the way through.

Yes. Something needs to happen but this is what we are stuck with for now. The republicans are fading. They will slowly lose more and more support if they continue on like this. Then the Dems will become the new right and there will be room for another party to step in and play the humanist role.

You really do sound young. Not saying that as an insult but yeah... that's young man's jibber jabba.

/old
 
2013-08-03 06:45:11 PM  

mod3072: WhyteRaven74: mod3072: Keep cheerleading for the Dems instead of having a serious conversation about true political reform

thing is, the state of the economy and jobs is at the end of the day the doing of the private sector. And for many blaming the private sector for anything is a no go.

That's partially true, but public policy has a HUGE impact on the private sector. We can't force companies to create more jobs, but can craft, for example, tax and trade policies that don't encourage (or, ideally, that actively DIScourage) shipping good jobs overseas.


what's your definition of a 'good job'? making cheap toys and other doohickeys? companies only care about 1 thing and 1 thing only... and that is their profit margin. If you pass policies that are too restrictive and potentially constricting to their  bottom line, then they'll just pack up and move somewhere else recreating the very problem you want to avoid.
Or do you prefer to strongarm them into staying? then you've just created an authoritarian government that is antithesis to what everything America is all about.
 
2013-08-03 06:45:39 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Meh, typo's be damned I started drinking early and well I'm sure I'll make my fair share : )


Prost! My drinking for the day has been accomplished. Now I must punish this tuna sandwich and dork out on some ST TNG.

Peace out, ya'll!

*drops mic*

*sh*ts on stage*

*ignites back pack jets*

*FWOOOOSH*
 
2013-08-03 06:52:03 PM  

Goimir: ReapTheChaos: "These jobs, which account for 33% of all private sector jobs, pay an average of $15.80 per hour."

$15.80 an hour is a pretty decent wage in most places. You wont live like a king, but you'll manage. The problem is people are spoiled. They think they need to drive a new car, have the best furnishings in their house, $80 a month cable Tv on their 50" flat screens, $200 cell phones with a $75 monthly plan and a slew of other crap that you can live without.

Hell, $15.80 an hour is more than I'm making.


Let's make a budget here:

$15.80 an hour is $2,717.60 gross for a month at 40 hours a week

Equates to a take home of approximately $2,038.20

Now let's add in some expenses:
Rent:  $750
Household:  $433 ($100/wk for food, household, toiletries)
Fuel:  $100
Auto Insurance: $100
Health Insurance: $400
Utilities:  $100

That puts us at $1,883
Now you want to have the ability to actually have a life, OK

Phone+Internet: $75 ;yes, you could get by without internet and just having a phone, but you wouldn't be here then now would you
Lunch out once a week or going to the bar twice a month or going to see a ball game once a month or going to the symphony every other month: $50

Now we're up to $2,008, or $30 dollars left over to maintain the car and buy clothing and such.

Where can we pare this down.  Let's see, we could ditch the car if we lived in a more urban area.  So we can get rid of fuel and car insurance, but our rent would go up to $950, and we'd need to spend $75/mo on a transit pass.  That's a losing proposition.

We can move to a rural area, drop rent to $500/mo, but pay another $100/mo in fuel, $50 a month in utilities (those cheap places in rural areas are always poorly insulated and have crap appliances).  That does add a bit, but you're sacrificing 2 hrs a day, or 10 hours a week, or 43 hours a month of your life in commuting.  That's more than a week's worth of work for saving that money.  If you need to you can do it and work out on the plu ...


Like I said in my post I make less than that and my budget is no where near what you're suggesting and I own my own home. I realize cost of living differs from place to place but if you put some effort into it you can live comfortably on $32,000 a year.
 
2013-08-03 06:53:49 PM  

kiyote: College may not be the best choice for everyone, but vocational training and certificates can take people far away from these low-end jobs. I bussed tables for 4 years in my early twenties for $4.25 an hour. Only after I put myself through a two year program did my career move anywhere.


I agree (and I teach at a college!), but the problem is that a lot of people have already bought in to the system and have their $20K in student loan debt, and it's eating away what little money they have to pay for additional training or making them leery to make another investment like that.

/ it's a trap!
 
2013-08-03 06:55:44 PM  

ReapTheChaos: Like I said in my post I make less than that and my budget is no where near what you're suggesting and I own my own home. I realize cost of living differs from place to place but if you put some effort into it you can live comfortably on $32,000 a year.


Comfortably is subjective. The only way you can live "comfortably" is to have no debt, and be room mates with someone who can split costs. And not incur any emergency costs, like replacing an AC unit.
 
2013-08-03 06:58:36 PM  
i.imgur.com

If flipping burgers is the only job skill you have, that's your own fault.
 
2013-08-03 07:04:59 PM  
"We Have Become a Nation of Hamburger Flippers": Dan Alpert Breaks Down
*gasp*

the Jobs Report
Boo!
 
2013-08-03 07:05:20 PM  

hardinparamedic: ReapTheChaos: Like I said in my post I make less than that and my budget is no where near what you're suggesting and I own my own home. I realize cost of living differs from place to place but if you put some effort into it you can live comfortably on $32,000 a year.

Comfortably is subjective. The only way you can live "comfortably" is to have no debt, and be room mates with someone who can split costs. And not incur any emergency costs, like replacing an AC unit.


Well I am debt free but I don't have room mates unless you count my kids when they come home for a visit. Emergency costs are what savings are for, something people don't seem to understand how to do these days.
 
2013-08-03 07:09:05 PM  

mike_the_engineer: [i.imgur.com image 400x600]

If flipping burgers is the only job skill you have, that's your own fault.


My geology professor last year was rocking a hairstyle just like that one.
I don't know what that adds to anything, I'm just sayin'.
 
2013-08-03 07:10:48 PM  

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: So for $6000 ($50 * 120), I get a whopping return of $2883.78? I'M RICH! I'M MITT ROMNEY!


...which, as I mentioned previously, is an annualized return of ~7.25%, which is pretty good, especially considering you don't have to "manage" it, you just invest in index funds or ETFs.  And where did I say anything about being "rich"? Nice strawman...

Madbassist1: Also, LOL at the 6-8000 over 10 YEARS.


...which is 6-8000 more than you would have (NOTHING) if you didn't save anything, and you get that for only $25/paycheck.

N-deutetrei: Yeah and that's assuming you've never had to dip in to that savings for a big insurance co-payment or a broken A/C or your car breaking down...


At least you'd be able to pay for those things with your own money instead of putting it on your credit card, which would cost you an additional 12-18%/year (or more).

You can keep coming up with excuses to not save, and never have anything, and no bulwark whatsoever against the proverbial "rainy day", or you can make small sacrifices and begin to take control of your personal finanaces. Your choice, I guess.
 
2013-08-03 07:14:57 PM  
Seventy percent service economy.
Seventy percent service economy.
Seventy percent service economy.
The rest is military-industrial.

Love it. Because this is what it is.
 
2013-08-03 07:24:41 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: here to help: mod3072: Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Okay... I'll ignore what I perceived as an endorsement for the pubs. So aside from that you went to great lengths to tell us all how much we slobber over dem cock. The Farkers in general are totally brainwashed by the dems to march in lockstep and we are nothing but subserviant sheeple to the 0bamster.

The thing is... I'm here pretty much every day... even if I'm not posting. Even the libbiest libs on here don't do that. They have plenty of complaints and poor opinions about the current administration. These guys may be derp farmers but they aren't actually dumb. So even ignoring the fact it did indeed appear you were endorsing the republican party you were still using a common right wing tactic of making anyone who even THINKS of voting democratic as mindless sheep.

It simply is not true. The reality is most are not happy with that party but the other guys are indeed WAY worse. Like freaking nutsoid, sell us all into slavery, launch large scale global conflicts next WEEK kind of worse.

You think they are the same? On some things sure. They both obey money masters. They both think of themselves before the people. But they are so different and so many OTHER ways that any thinking person with an ounce of human compassion don't even see the right wing as a viable alternative.

It is insulting to say those people are blind and brainwashed. They just have no other choice.

Capicheka? Now run along to your clever boys club meeting. Don't want to keep them waiting.

So very true, and well said.
Also I seriously doubt most people that vote for Dems do so blindly. Does this country need political reform sure, but who's gonna do it? I'd like to see a true liberal party emerge but well that isn't happening anytime soon.
/Saying both side are bad has been a sorta code to try and get people to vote Republican for a long time.


I agree that people who vote for the party of Jim Crow do not do so blindly.
 
2013-08-03 07:30:37 PM  

Amos Quito: Most of those that died did so because they couldn't compete with foreign dumping.


When you produce cloth on 60 year old machines and someone starts making it on new machines, it doesn't matter where they are, you're doomed unless you get new equipment.

When you're unwilling to give people what they want, it doesn't matter where a competitor is, they're going to eat your lunch. When you're unwilling to cut your profit margin while a competitor gladly goes with a lower one and makes what people want, you're not long for this world.
 
2013-08-03 07:34:00 PM  
Benjimin_Dover:
I see the american education system has really benefited you.
/Weak troll is weak.
2/10
 
2013-08-03 07:36:09 PM  
$15 is pretty damn good to me. I make $9.25.
 
2013-08-03 07:37:21 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Amos Quito: Most of those that died did so because they couldn't compete with foreign dumping.

When you produce cloth on 60 year old machines and someone starts making it on new machines, it doesn't matter where they are, you're doomed unless you get new equipment.

When you're unwilling to give people what they want, it doesn't matter where a competitor is, they're going to eat your lunch. When you're unwilling to cut your profit margin while a competitor gladly goes with a lower one and makes what people want, you're not long for this world.


Well said, it used to be a rule of business to reinvest in the company etc. It goes to how feel about infrastructure.
 
2013-08-03 08:02:27 PM  

ReapTheChaos: Like I said in my post I make less than that and my budget is no where near what you're suggesting and I own my own home. I realize cost of living differs from place to place but if you put some effort into it you can live comfortably on $32,000 a year.


You own your own home, and you make $32,000 a year.  This leads me to a few assumptions:

You had money for a downpayment
You managed to buy in when prices were reasonable during the correction OR
You bought your home in the 90s when you were making $30,000 a year

Let me take a hack at your budget:

Mortgage+taxes:  $300
Utilities:  $50 ;being a homeowner and making that little means you're eligible for assistance in making it energy efficient
Food/household:  $300 ;having a home means you can have a garden
Car insurance: $100 ;some things can't be helped
Fuel:  $100
Health insurance:  $400

So you're starting out at $1350 for your core living expenses.  Throw in phone/internet/cable and you're at $1450.

Also, in another comment you said "when your kids come to visit".  I'm assuming they're grown, which means it's highly likely that your housing expense is $100/mo, as you're only paying taxes at this point because you own the home outright.  It's also likely that you were making more (real) money 30 years ago, which enabled you to do things like "have money for a downpayment".  30 years ago, there was still a notion of this thing called "Job Security".  In my 15 years of working, I've had 14 jobs.  Seven of those companies are no longer in business.  Two laid off a bunch of people after I left but are still operating in a reduced capacity.  Most jobs were jobs I left after they refused to give me more money and I found more money elsewhere.  I've moved three times to try and make it work.  The last move the wife refused to follow me.

What does your actual budget look like?
 
2013-08-03 08:08:45 PM  
How to not be a burger flipper:

Step one:  Put down the bong, moron.

Step two:   Stop playing video games 85% of your waking life

Step three:  Actually wear a clean, pressed shirt to a job interview and stop with the farking texting during the interview.

Step four:  Avoid neck tattoos

That should get you most of the way there.  You're on your own for the rest of it.
 
2013-08-03 08:12:44 PM  

fatassbastard: You can keep coming up with excuses to not save, and never have anything, and no bulwark whatsoever against the proverbial "rainy day", or you can make small sacrifices and begin to take control of your personal finanaces


$6000 in 10 years is less than useless. That could be wiped out by one illness, one broken down car, one bought of unemployment, one of nearly any of the pitfalls of being poor.. Better to use that $25/paycheck and buy beer to make those 10 years suck less, because saving at that level isn't going to do jack or shiat to actually pay for anything. It's not going to give you control of your finances. To save, people actually need to make money, and with wages trending downwards, they're not.
 
2013-08-03 08:15:23 PM  

hardinparamedic: Amos Quito: Just carry on under the delusion that your government is ultimately benevolent, there is a meaningful difference between the "Left" and the "Right", and that things will just keep getting better and better if we will ONLY allow those that govern unlimited power.

So far so good, right?

Nice reducto ad absurdum. I'm speaking specifically of you and YOUR agitprop there, Napoleon.



You mean, like, holding those elected to public office - sworn to uphold the Constitution, the Rule of Law, and to serve the interests of their constituents - ACCOUNTABLE for their actions while in said office?

That's just CRAZY talk, right there.


hardinparamedic: I don't carry on under any delusions that our current government isn't a corrupt and wasteful entity. But I also don't harbor delusions that people like you are any better than the previous monster.


"People like me"? Let's find out what kind of person hardinparamedic thinks I am...

hardinparamedic:  People who masturbate over the spilling of blood and revolution are the first to turn on those who bring them into power in the first place.


You're a hoot, BM. Reread that Jefferson quote above. On the whole, people are selfish, mentally lazy, and gullible. Any person or party that comes into power will become corrupt and tyrannical - nature of the beast. The point that Jefferson so eloquently made (and that zipped over your head) is that any people that wishes to remain "free" and maintain a government that effectively serves the interests of the public must keep said government on a damn short leash - they must be slapped around and called to account for their shenanigans, otherwise the people will soon find themselves overpowered, disorganized and unable to resist.

The reason that we are situation we are now (very bad and speeding towards way worse) is thanks to our selfishness, laziness, complacency, gullibility and outright stupidity. We have sat back and done nothing as our politicians and their "parties" have become increasingly corrupt, lawless, and oppressive - ceaselessly grabbing more and more power, election after election, Republican or Democrat, for generations. They work their backroom deals and sell us out - and we're stupid enough to fall for it because they slice us up like a pizza - dividing and distracting us over issues that are petty, if not manufactured outright.

If we ever *do* start to become irate and to stir, they sacrifice a political "goat" or two for show to placate our rage, then selectively toss out "candy" to lull us back into dullness, OR create a major distraction (war is always good) - anything to deflect attention from themselves. And it works - look at all of the shiat that's gone down over the past several decades - the unjust wars, the unconstitutional power-grabs, the destruction of our rights - and what has been the fate of those that have brought this on us? We either reelect them or they "retire" to become "board members" of the fat cat companies and organizations whose interests they served - at OUR expense - while in office.

Now, what were you saying?

hardinparamedic: This has been the rule for all of the leaders through history who have promised with violent revolution to save us from our tyrant masters should we put them in the halls of power. Especially those are willing to create an enemy to focus the vitriol and hatred of the masses upon as blame for their own miseries.


Yeah, as I was saying, it is the responsibility of the people to prevent asshats from getting into power - and to keep those in power from turning into asshats. The very nature of government makes it attractive to the WRONG kind of people - manipulative, lying, power-hungry (but charismatic) reprobates who are willing to tell any lie and make any promise to gain power, and strangely enough, these are just the kinds of people that WE ELECT to office.

The only thing that ever stands between a people and tyranny is perpetual vigilance and a demonstrated ability and willingness to resist. That's it.


hardinparamedic: Your history of creating blame-ridden boogymen based on race and creed should put you last to open your mouth up about it.


Oh, now you're off the deep end. You base your opinion of me not on what I have said, but on the mewlings of other dipshiats, or your funky imagination.

I'm going to have ask you for specific examples justifying the above accusations, and as you will be unable to provide said examples,  I'm guessing this conversation is over.

Ta ta!
 
2013-08-03 08:23:59 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: I'm guessing you're still in college, pretty young and really don't remember all the things that have happened and why over the years.


I wish! Unfortunately, you're off by more than a decade. I remember plenty that has happened over the years and why. The biggest lesson I've learned is that if there is a bill or policy that isn't some meaningless piece of populist fluffery and it has the support of both parties, you best grab your ankles and reach for the lube because you're about to get farked.
 
2013-08-03 08:28:43 PM  

LawrencePerson: If America continues to advance toward a European-sized, crony-capitalist, cradle-to-grave welfare state, expect European levels of bankruptcy, unemployment, and demographic decline.

The future of America will look more and more like the present of Detroit and Greece.


Your blog sucks.
 
2013-08-03 08:35:11 PM  

Ontos: How to not be a burger flipper:

Step one:  Put down the bong, moron.

Step two:   Stop playing video games 85% of your waking life

Step three:  Actually wear a clean, pressed shirt to a job interview and stop with the farking texting during the interview.

Step four:  Avoid neck tattoos

That should get you most of the way there.  You're on your own for the rest of it.


Implying that none of the people who work at fast food restaurants are people who have put down the bong and game controller, wore pressed shirts to their job interviews and didn't text during those interviews; and are qualified to work in other fields but can't find a job worth the trouble because the few openings require years of managerial experience but only pay entry-level wages.
 
2013-08-03 08:35:50 PM  

mod3072: tinfoil-hat maggie: I'm guessing you're still in college, pretty young and really don't remember all the things that have happened and why over the years.

I wish! Unfortunately, you're off by more than a decade. I remember plenty that has happened over the years and why. The biggest lesson I've learned is that if there is a bill or policy that isn't some meaningless piece of populist fluffery and it has the support of both parties, you best grab your ankles and reach for the lube because you're about to get farked.


Have you ever heard of the good Dr. Leary? Well he's dead now. But his "turn on, tune in, and drop out" was sound advice. Think of Fahrenheit 451. The correct answer was just to drop out and do what you could do.
 
2013-08-03 08:38:54 PM  

edmo: Soon we'll have the largest, most educated, well-armed class of poor people in the world.


haha, not bloody likely.  Our poor still dont compare with the poor of the rest of the world.  And our education is rapidly falling behind the rest of the world.  I'll give you "well armed".
 
2013-08-03 08:43:11 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: $6000 in 10 years is less than useless. That could be wiped out by one illness, one broken down car, one bought of unemployment, one of nearly any of the pitfalls of being poor.


Your second sentence defeats your own argument presented in your first. The money saved paid for the illness, or car repair, or your rent & food.  Hardly "useless".

And bear in mind I only suggested $25/paycheck. Most of us with full time jobs could do more.

Let's take the $15.80/hr example Save 5% of your annual salary at 7.25% annual return (preferably in an IRA or 401(k) so you can't spend it before retirement) and in 30 years you'll have ~$175,000. Is that "useless" too?

Again, your choice: make excuses and have nothing, or make small sacrifices and take more control of your own life.
 
2013-08-03 08:48:50 PM  

SuperNinjaToad: mod3072: WhyteRaven74: mod3072: Keep cheerleading for the Dems instead of having a serious conversation about true political reform

thing is, the state of the economy and jobs is at the end of the day the doing of the private sector. And for many blaming the private sector for anything is a no go.

That's partially true, but public policy has a HUGE impact on the private sector. We can't force companies to create more jobs, but can craft, for example, tax and trade policies that don't encourage (or, ideally, that actively DIScourage) shipping good jobs overseas.

what's your definition of a 'good job'? making cheap toys and other doohickeys? companies only care about 1 thing and 1 thing only... and that is their profit margin. If you pass policies that are too restrictive and potentially constricting to their  bottom line, then they'll just pack up and move somewhere else recreating the very problem you want to avoid.
Or do you prefer to strongarm them into staying? then you've just created an authoritarian government that is antithesis to what everything America is all about.


What is YOUR definition of a 'good job'? Flipping burgers or running a cash register? A strong manufacturing sector, or "making cheap toys and doohickeys" as you call it, is a very important part of a vibrant economy. I never suggested "strong-arming" them to stay, but in many ways we have actively encouraged them to leave through different trade agreements, tax policies, etc. Give them a financial incentive to stay, and they will stay.
 
2013-08-03 08:51:11 PM  

Frederick: edmo: Soon we'll have the largest, most educated, well-armed class of poor people in the world.

haha, not bloody likely.  Our poor still dont compare with the poor of the rest of the world.  And our education is rapidly falling behind the rest of the world.  I'll give you "well armed".


And add that fact to the part about them being underpaid/underemployed and well... I'm guessing from the amount of bank robberies I've heard of a lot of people are using said fire arms to increase their income.
/And no the answer isn't to ban firearms
 
2013-08-03 08:52:41 PM  

Ontos: How to not be a burger flipper:

Step one:  Put down the bong, moron.

Step two:   Stop playing video games 85% of your waking life

Step three:  Actually wear a clean, pressed shirt to a job interview and stop with the farking texting during the interview.

Step four:  Avoid neck tattoos

That should get you most of the way there.  You're on your own for the rest of it.



The irony is that the folks that needs to better themselves on their own time are in fact on Fark all day complaining about not having enough money.

I guess everyone else is just trolling, or college students.
 
2013-08-03 08:58:38 PM  

fatassbastard: Again, your choice: make excuses and have nothing, or make small sacrifices and take more control of your own life.


funny how it's always up to the income earners to scratch by with a little less, and never up to those who pay the incomes to actually start paying decent incomes again. After all they're perfect, nothing they do is ever wrong, right?
 
2013-08-03 09:07:06 PM  
Our nation is wealthier than it has ever been, but that wealth is being hoarded upwards. I don't blame the uber-wealthy by default...it's just that money attracts money. The more you have, the easier it is to earn more while doing less for it. This is why a progressive tax system is necessary. biatch about it all you want, but it's the only way.
 
2013-08-03 09:07:54 PM  

mike_the_engineer: If flipping burgers is the only job skill you have, that's your own fault.


Not necessarily.
 
2013-08-03 09:10:44 PM  
"What good is industry if it be so unskillfully managed as not to return a living to everyone concerned? No question is more important than that of wages - most of the people of the country live on wages. The scale of their living - the rate of their wages - determines the prosperity of the country."

"If we can distribute high wages, then that money is going to be spent and it will serve to make storekeepers and distributors and manufacturers and workers in other lines more prosperous and their prosperity will be reflected in our sales. Country-wide high wages spell country-wide prosperity, provided, however, the higher wages are paid for higher production."

Quotes from noted pinko commie socialist Henry Ford.
 
2013-08-03 09:11:51 PM  

Madbassist1: fatassbastard: Anyone can invest in the stock market successfully. Yes, ANYONE.

The rich and established have the edge, though. Its very well documented.

Also, LOL at the 6-8000 over 10 YEARS.


Assuming the stocks you back always perform. We'll never have another rainy day ever!

Everytime I hear someone parroting about the stock market I remember a time where everyone believed Enron was rock solid. To be honest, it was if you were rich enough to be involved in the background/shady stuff and cashed out before all the peons lost their retirement.
 
2013-08-03 09:17:24 PM  

BullBearMS: MaudlinMutantMollusk: vpb: BunkyBrewman: We've been well aware that our entire economy is shifting to service based for at least a few decades now.

Yes, since we decided to shift it in that direction in the 80's.

As the manufacturing jobs were being moved overseas, coincidentally

/I always wondered how a country can have a gross national product once they've stopped actually producing anything

To be fair, quite a lot of them just moved across the border to Mexico.

The destruction of America's manufacturing jobs was hardly accidental and it was completely bipartisan.

Bush Senior began negotiation of the first of the free trade agreements that allowed the rich to move America's manufacturing jobs out of the United States without facing any sort of financial penalty when the finished goods were brought back inside the US for sale.

Clinton finished the negotiations and fought to have the treaty ratified as one of his very first actions in office. He blew a huge amount of political capital to get it past his own party due to huge union opposition.

Bought off representatives of both parties repeatedly promised that these treaties would mean more manufacturing jobs for Americans.

Clinton while signing the NAFTA bill stated: "...NAFTA means jobs. American jobs, and good-paying American jobs. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't support this agreement."

They lied.


The scariest thing is that Ross Perot, of all people was actually correct all those years ago!  I would NOT have thought so back then, but I guess that just because he was crazy did not mean he was wrong.
 
2013-08-03 09:21:16 PM  

seadoo2006: Either there will be a return to focus on the working class/poor/middle class...or there will be revolt.


America doesn't have the balls to revolt. Not any more.

Thought occupy might actually turn into something.

May be last summer would be another summer of LOVE.

yeah, right
 
2013-08-03 09:21:25 PM  

here to help: So all the people voting Democrat to avoid become a third world theocracy should just stop voting until something better comes along? I don't think you've thought your cunning plan all the way through.


I think it depends on whether you are talking state/local level or federal level. At the state level, yeah. Go ahead and vote for whichever party floats your boat. Your statehouse is much more likely to be full of "true believers". They may have even taken the job in an honest effort to make things "better". Better is completely subjective, of course. It might mean they want equal rights for the gay community, or it might mean they want to replace the science curriculum with bible study. Either way, they are more likely to achieve their goals at a state level. At the federal level, not so much. You don't see much real effort towards meaningful social reform at the federal level. There's no money it. Those people only care about 2 things - money and power. Oh sure, they huff and puff about social issues, but very little gets accomplished. Turning the US into a "third world theocracy" would be bad for business. If the Republicans stray too far off the path, the guys at the top will quickly remind them that the only true God is the almighty dollar, and they need to knock that shiat off because they are angering the Lord thy currency.

Yes. Something needs to happen but this is what we are stuck with for now. The republicans are fading. They will slowly lose more and more support if they continue on like this. Then the Dems will become the new right and there will be room for another party to step in and play the humanist role.

You really do sound young. Not saying that as an insult but yeah... that's young man's jibber jabba.

/old


I'm not that young. My oldest will be a sophomore this year. It just pisses me off that he won't have the same opportunities that I did. It also pisses me off that I've seen my and my family's quality of life erode, ever so slowly, over the last 2 decades as wages stagnate and the prices of vital goods and services like energy, food and healthcare soar. I'm tired of watching billionaires get bailed out while working peoples' retirements are cleaned out. I'm tired of people making excuses for either of the two parties responsible for that because, well, the other guys are even worse. Fark that. For federal office I vote third party. If there is no third party option, I vote anti-incumbant. (well, unless the challenger is a real nutter). Yeah, I'm pissing in the wind and I know it. At least I can have the tiny satisfaction of knowing that I didn't help feed the cycle. My state is ALWAYS going to go red in a landslide anyways, so it makes very little difference what I do.
 
2013-08-03 09:23:35 PM  

WhyteRaven74: "What good is industry if it be so unskillfully managed as not to return a living to everyone concerned? No question is more important than that of wages - most of the people of the country live on wages. The scale of their living - the rate of their wages - determines the prosperity of the country."

"If we can distribute high wages, then that money is going to be spent and it will serve to make storekeepers and distributors and manufacturers and workers in other lines more prosperous and their prosperity will be reflected in our sales. Country-wide high wages spell country-wide prosperity, provided, however, the higher wages are paid for higher production."

Quotes from noted pinko commie socialist Henry Ford.


Yea, except he really was an ass when he tried to take break his company from investors. As well as on other things.

/Granted, he was right about those quotes.
//One day in the not too distant future I do see the country ( if it can get past the media) going nationalistic and embracing a form of isolationism.
///Granted the belief in globalization after the fall of the USSR seem's to have brought on lot's of nationalism.
 
2013-08-03 09:23:44 PM  

dickfreckle: Those of you who live in cities now gentrifying, take a look around. What were once foundries are now condo buildings (I used to live in one). Most major cities have a something like a "warehouse district" that's now upscale eateries and, once again, condos. Those reasonably paying jobs didn't move to the suburbs. They just up and went.


Yeah, the good old days were great back when anyone could get a job carrying 120 pound bags of wheat off a train car and into a warehouse, and then two weeks later load it on a barge. And they could do that for 12 hours a day, six days a week, and 5 cents an hour.

Fifty guys in a modern terminal can move more goods than 10,000 guys combined in your warehouse utopia of yesteryear. And they probaly make more money than those 10,000 guys combined, too.
 
2013-08-03 09:34:35 PM  

GORDON: agsfark: choo: Thanks, GOP

Ain't that the truth. How could they not find a candidate to beat the current Moron in
Chief?

The media wont let them win.  I knew 20 things about Sarah Palin's life, husband, kids, grandkids, the grandkids who were her actual kids, husband's job, husband's previous job, who her kids were dating, her wardrobe budget for the primaries, and part of her DNA and likelihood of trisomy occurring during a pregnancy.  None of that information was shared in a positive light.  She wasn't even running for president.

COMMUNITY ORGANIZER (a made-up term) was given more credence than someone who was an actual chief executive of a state.  It was said Obama had more experience.

On the other hand, I didn't even know if Biden had kids on election day.  All I know about him to this day is that he gaffe's about as much as Bush did but in a more adorable way, and The Onion likes him and keeps making endearing "Oh look he is washing his Trans Am on the White House lawn" jokes.

The baby of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson could run today, because he came back in time from a cloning vat, and he could claim he had perfect knowledge of the next 200 years of world history, and knew exactly what, and when, to do, and if they are on the Republican ticket they couldn't win.  The democrat candidate would just laugh and kill and eat an infant on live TV during primetime on all the networks and basic cable and still get 52% of the vote.  The media has done their jobs well.


PocketNinja, is that you?
 
2013-08-03 09:35:29 PM  

WhyteRaven74: funny how it's always up to the income earners to scratch by with a little less, and never up to those who pay the incomes to actually start paying decent incomes again. After all they're perfect, nothing they do is ever wrong, right?


Whether or not the "job creators" should be paying more (they probably should) is not at all the point I'm trying to make. All I'm saying is, if you save a little bit out of every paycheck, you'll be better prepared to face whatever comes in the future. And if people are paying less than they should, doesn't that make it even more important to save?

broadsword: Everytime I hear someone parroting about the stock market I remember a time where everyone believed Enron was rock solid.


So, your argument against saving in the broader stock market (the S&P 500 has returned an average of 9.3% since 1928,  before the Great Depression:  http://tinyurl.com/5jhm7) is to pick out one individual spectacular failure? That's like never flying because you saw one plane crash on TV.
 
2013-08-03 09:37:27 PM  

Goimir: You own your own home, and you make $32,000 a year.  This leads me to a few assumptions:


First off, I never said I made 32k, I said you can live on that amount. I make about 19k

You had money for a downpayment

Nope, made no down payment.

Let me take a hack at your budget:

Mortgage+taxes:  $300


Close enough.

Utilities:  $50 ;being a homeowner and making that little means you're eligible for assistance in making it energy efficient

Around $100 a month, I get no assistance and I'm not eligible for any that I know of.

Food/household:  $300 ;having a home means you can have a garden

I honestly don't pay much attention but that's probably close. I spend my time remodeling my house so some months it may be upwards of $1500, but the bare minimum is usually about $200. Also I have no garden.

Car insurance: $100 ;some things can't be helped

Liability only, about $40 a month.

Fuel:  $100

More like $25 a month, but I'm retired so I don't drive much. Before you make assumptions, I'm 49 and I live off my military retirement only.

Health insurance:  $400

My health plan would costs about $300 a year, but I only have the basic (free) coverage right now. Not that it matters because I haven't been to a doctor in 9 years so I don't see a need at the moment.

So you're starting out at $1350 for your core living expenses.  Throw in phone/internet/cable and you're at $1450.

No cable, phone is pay as you go, costs me about $10 a month tops, internet is $35.

Also, in another comment you said "when your kids come to visit".  I'm assuming they're grown, which means it's highly likely that your housing expense is $100/mo, as you're only paying taxes at this point because you own the home outright.

Nope, I'm about 12 years into my mortgage right now.

It's also likely that you were making more (real) money 30 years ago, which enabled you to do things like "have money for a downpayment".

Nope, 30 years ago I was graduating high school. My first year in the military was 1984 and I made 12k (all pay included). My highest paying year would have been 2004 when I retired from the military and that was about 44k (again, all pay included). Keep in mind that I also paid between $250 - $900 in child support to two ex wives for a pretty good majority of those 20 years, so subtracting that I made about 33k at my highest point in my life.

like I said, you wont be in the lap of luxury but you can live on 32k, if not I highly suggest you move somewhere that has a lower cost of living because if you have any kind of marketable skills you can make 32k almost anywhere.
 
2013-08-03 09:38:45 PM  

fatassbastard: Let's take the $15.80/hr example Save 5% of your annual salary at 7.25% annual return (preferably in an IRA or 401(k) so you can't spend it before retirement) and in 30 years you'll have ~$175,000. Is that "useless" too?


pretty much. in thirty years maybe three years somewhat comfortable living or
six or eight years of SS supplementation
 
2013-08-03 09:45:13 PM  

MBrady: Majick Thise: Nabb1: I just hope this doesn't reflect poorly on Obama.

I blame Bush.

why wouldn't you.  all the liberals on here certainly do.  you know, he's been out of office almost six years now


I believe Amazon has a sense of humor on sale this week. You might look into getting one.
 
2013-08-03 09:46:05 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: except he really was an ass when he tried to take break his company from investors.


As for the investors, the Dodge brothers. Henry was not exactly thrilled Ford dividends were going into the pockets of two men who were seeking to compete with him. To be fair, given the circumstances I can't exactly blame him for being so irked.
 
2013-08-03 09:46:35 PM  

WhyteRaven74: fatassbastard: Again, your choice: make excuses and have nothing, or make small sacrifices and take more control of your own life.

funny how it's always up to the income earners to scratch by with a little less, and never up to those who pay the incomes to actually start paying decent incomes again. After all they're perfect, nothing they do is ever wrong, right?


Yeah, I keep seeing fatassbastard tell me to get by on less and to save.  What if I'm ALREADY getting by on less? What if I simply don't have a magical 5% of my income to save because it's completely accounted for, and then some, by bills and student loans and the BS that comes up.  And what if, when I do save, I lose my job or get sick and have to use that savings?  Oh, right, then I don't have any savings left.  Which means that I didn't make enough sacrifices and my life is out of control?  How much is enough sacrifice? How many roommates and how far do I need to walk to work and how little should I spend on food to be responsible enough for you?

It's not profligate spending like a drunken sailor that keeps many people from saving.  It's a new f'n muffler.  Or a pair of glasses to replace the 5 year old pair that finally cracked. Or a change in your insurance plan, where your monthly co-pay goes from $15 to $40.  But sure, I can do without something - who needs electricity, or gas, or insurance, or hell, healthcare! Just, you know, don't get sick, drive, or turn on the lights...
 
2013-08-03 09:47:25 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Amos Quito: Most of those that died did so because they couldn't compete with foreign dumping.

When you produce cloth on 60 year old machines and someone starts making it on new machines, it doesn't matter where they are, you're doomed unless you get new equipment.

When you're unwilling to give people what they want, it doesn't matter where a competitor is, they're going to eat your lunch. When you're unwilling to cut your profit margin while a competitor gladly goes with a lower one and makes what people want, you're not long for this world.



You seem to be suffering under the delusion that the loss of the US' manufacturing and heavy industry was simply do to the fact that American companies were greedy, had no desire to innovate, and that they simply "disappeared" because people of foreign nations are less selfish, more innovative, less greedy, and just plain better at business.

Do you think the American companies that once produced goods here in the US simply disappeared? That those who ran and made fortunes from them simply faded away?

Imagine for a moment that you're a manufacturer of widgets here in the US, and have been for some time. You run a union shop, pay your employees well and offer decent benefits. Your equipment and processes are a bit dated, but you are still able to offer a quality product at a reasonable price, and customer loyalty is high.

Then a foreign competitor appears in the market - offering widgets that, while they may be of equal or lesser quality, are priced considerably cheaper than those you make - and they have snazzy bells and whistles that you have yet to offer. One reason that the new guy can offer such a competitive price is that he faces little or no tariffs or restrictions: He can import at will.

So you decide that it's time to make some changes: Do or die. You'll need to build entirely new facilities because not only is your equipment outdated, the EPA (and assorted agencies) are crawling all over your back because of the air pollution and waste water that is inherent in widget production. Also, the unions are crawling up your ass, demanding a 13% rise in wages, and numerous other benefits.

You have a fair amount of capital on hand and good access to credit - what do you do?

You have 2 options to consider:

Option 1. Stay in Indiana: That means building an entirely new facility that will meet not only your production goals, but will satisfy the new requirements ($$$) placed on you by the EPA and other regulatory bodies. Said facility will be built with union labor ($$$) under strict code enforcement AND will be manned by your UNION workforce. You'll be able to produce a comparable product, but can you compete?

Option 2. Move production overseas. You still have to build a new facility, but construction costs will be MUCH lower, and greasing a few palms will assure that there are no "permit hassles" to be faced. Also, there will be no EPA bureaucrats fussing about pollution, and NO UNIONS rabble rousing the workforce - who will be paid 25% of what your US employees make, have NO benefits, and expect no benefits. You'll be able to build your new plant at 1/3 the cost, employ people for 1/4 the cost, AND face a LOT less red tape from bureaucrats. You'll be able to produce a better product than you are today, sell it in the US at a very competitive price, and DOUBLE your profits - because THE US ALLOWS FOREIGN MADE WIDGETS TO BE DUMPED ON THE MARKET WITH NO TARIFFS AND NO IMPORT RESTRICTIONS.

Now, what choice do you think a shrewd, savvy businessman would make? Indiana or China?

This is simple carrot-and-stick psychology: If you want to direct someone's behavior, provide incentives for them to do that which you want them to do, and disincentives for them to do that which you do not want them to do.

Those entities that once employed millions of US workers didn't simply vanish via attrition - they simply followed the path of least resistance, and moved their manufacturing facilities to profit-friendly locations - while largely retaining their market thanks to the sweet sweet DUMP ON US policies put in place by our traitorous "free trade" politicians.

Greed and competition didn't kill America's industrial base, seditious politicians did. We allowed countries to DUMP their products on us even as they enforced prohibitively high tariffs against US made goods.

Are you starting to catch a glimpse? Or is this too much information for one evening?
 
2013-08-03 09:50:33 PM  

zepillin: pretty much


So what you're saying is, when it comes time for you to retire and you start collecting SS, having a $175,000 nest egg would be "useless"?

You guys are seriously unbelievable.
 
2013-08-03 09:55:32 PM  

WhyteRaven74: tinfoil-hat maggie: except he really was an ass when he tried to take break his company from investors.

As for the investors, the Dodge brothers. Henry was not exactly thrilled Ford dividends were going into the pockets of two men who were seeking to compete with him. To be fair, given the circumstances I can't exactly blame him for being so irked.


True, but lot's of new's lately about how befits from a job will be spent, granted yea from what I understand the Dodge's were asses.
 
2013-08-03 10:09:06 PM  

Amos Quito: Are you starting to catch a glimpse? Or is this too much information for one evening?


Your scenario is nice, too bad it's not based in anything but textbook reality. In actual reality you ignore far too much and put too much blame on the "other". As I mentioned with making cloth, old equipment is not a good thing. I remember when they showed a textile mill in North Carolina lamenting how it shut down, it had equipment from the 1910s and 20s inside. How on God's earth did they ever expect to stay in business when they had equipment so old? Equipment from the 60s would've allowed far greater production at the same cost. Equipment from the 80s would've allowed for greater production still at the same cost. If you can't bother to update your equipment at least once every couple decades, you can't complain when someone does the same thing for less. You could do it for less but you refuse to spend the money to do so.

Way back in 1970 someone was making a ruckus that Chevy had to start focusing on quality more than anything else. Who was that person? John Delorean, head of the Chevy division. Yeah, THAT John Delorean. He actually got his way with the Vega until control of the production facility was turned over from Chevy itself to GM's production division. What's oft overlooked is the people working the assembly line were upset by this, that they were being told in effect to make bad cars. As for Delorean, he was so fed up with GM he quit. Then there's the story of Ford and how they were told time and again to start building not only quality cars but small fuel efficient cars that many people wanted and also something besides huge gas guzzling vans. Who was this person telling Ford to do this? Lee Iaccoca, the CEO of Ford. Ford refused to listen and when he wouldn't shut up about giving people what they actually want, he was fired. Yep, he was fired because he wouldn't stop pushing for Ford to build what people actually wanted.

Go ahead blame the lack of isolationist trade policy, truth of the matter is, it's the people in charge that screwed things up. Had GM listened to Delorean and Ford to Iaccoca, there'd be no talk today about their difficulties in the 80s, they would've avoided them all together. Just as the textile would have been just fine had they bothered to replace their production equipment every couple of decades. Oh as for electronics makers? That's where the profit margin thing comes in. You had people who refused to sacrifice a few percent in profit margin on top of refusing to give people what they want, so when others gave people what they wanted, they were super screwed.
 
2013-08-03 10:15:23 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: granted yea from what I understand the Dodge's were asses.


The Doge brothers were asses, beyond thinking Henry Ford should provide them with money in the form of dividends for their own car making endeavors. It also needs to be noted that when Ford got rid of dividends the only people who thought of it as actually actionable, were the Dodge brothers. No one else sued Ford, though a few sold off their shares. It reminds me a bit of Kirk Kerkorian, who has in the past bought up sizable stakes in various companies then six months later expressed his displeasure with how they are run even though they were run that way before he bought his shares. If he doesn't like how the company is run, why did he buy the shares? And given he's a minority share holder, why should anyone give a shiat what he thinks? And yes Kerkorian has numerous times threatened law suits.
 
2013-08-03 10:21:29 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Our nation is wealthier than it has ever been, but that wealth is being hoarded upwards. I don't blame the uber-wealthy by default...it's just that money attracts money. The more you have, the easier it is to earn more while doing less for it. This is why a progressive tax system is necessary. biatch about it all you want, but it's the only way.


I've been toying with the opposite idea, actually: Instead of progressive taxes for the rich (or, perhaps, in complement to them) and Instead of giving a mandatory wage rate ($9/hr), it may be better to increase the payroll tax burden on corporations that pay under Cost-Of-Living +$7,500 per year. Use the tax rate to basically elevate the cost of the employee until that basic COL+7.5K rate is met for their area, increase the tax percentage.

So if an area's cost of living is $20,000 and you are paying them $12/hr, you are giving them $24,960 gross, which is under $27,500. So a company's tax for that payroll would be the standard payroll tax plus (27,500-24,960) or $2,540. This would allow them to compete between areas in the US (XX is cheaper than YY location), but would make them pay a minimum either to the employee or to the government.

Part time would follow the same rule, but some percentage of COL and then add the 7,500 (say 55% of COL + 7,500?), which means that they can't just hire 40x 1Hour-Per-Week employees like some places try to do now to get around the new wage rules. It actively penalizes the employers for shenanigans with payroll positions and ensures a usable wage. If you want part-time (semi-retired, going to school, shooting up heroin) you can still make a decent rate, but it won't let you live alone.
 
2013-08-03 10:24:01 PM  

zepillin: seadoo2006: Either there will be a return to focus on the working class/poor/middle class...or there will be revolt.

America doesn't have the balls to revolt. Not any more.

Thought occupy might actually turn into something.

May be last summer would be another summer of LOVE.

yeah, right


I think Occupy Wall Street was intended to be a new version of the old-fashioned 70s-style "consciousness-raising" but it fell short because #1) people assumed it was meant to be a new political party (it wasn't), and #2) it scared enough target groups (Wall Street, etc.) that they pulled out all the stops in getting it shut down (shipping the homeless to OWS rallies, siccing the police to tear gas them, inventing stories of rape/murder/drug use/hippie-like activity, etc.).

I'd very much like to see OWS 2: Electric Boogaloo -- this time with the intention of becoming a political party, rather than just "an airing of the grievances."
 
2013-08-03 10:31:30 PM  
When we import from anywhere else in the world we are only able to so because of inexpensive fuel. The simple solution is to charge "environmental" taxes on petroleum fueled transportation. Items that are producec closer to home dont have to be shipped as far.As long as we keep subsidizing big oil there is no way in hell this will all change. Make people pay the true price for goods (including full cost of fuel, environmental cleanup of every refinery and toxic waste resulting from production of goods, and full cost of humane wages) and big businesses will quickly start building here.On another note...Detroit is dead, but most Asian auto makers now produce cars here. Why? Because its less expensive in the longrun.
 
2013-08-03 10:33:04 PM  
www.cujet.com
While waiting for the pitchforks and torches...
 
2013-08-03 10:37:54 PM  

fatassbastard: zepillin: pretty much

So what you're saying is, when it comes time for you to retire and you start collecting SS, having a $175,000 nest egg would be "useless"?

You guys are seriously unbelievable.


You have no idea of the affect of inflation and wage stagnation on the american dollar or what is meant by cost of living.

If you're retiring in the third world it would have good value in combo with SS
in America not so much
it's a no brainer
let he who has eyes see
 
2013-08-03 10:40:12 PM  

mike_the_engineer: [i.imgur.com image 400x600]

If flipping burgers is the only job skill you have, that's your own fault.


Hahaha!

/Software developer here...busier than shiat.
 
2013-08-03 10:41:28 PM  

freakay: When we import from anywhere else in the world we are only able to so because of inexpensive fuel. The simple solution is to charge "environmental" taxes on petroleum fueled transportation. Items that are producec closer to home dont have to be shipped as far.As long as we keep subsidizing big oil there is no way in hell this will all change. Make people pay the true price for goods (including full cost of fuel, environmental cleanup of every refinery and toxic waste resulting from production of goods, and full cost of humane wages) and big businesses will quickly start building here.On another note...Detroit is dead, but most Asian auto makers now produce cars here. Why? Because its less expensive in the longrun.


I'll just say this....
How would you tax fuel bought over seas? I think the word you're looking for is tariffs
Also most of the new auto plants that have been built are given tax-free status for years(from the state they move to) as well as .those states are anti union so most workers make half or a quarter of what their union counterparts used to make.
 
2013-08-03 10:43:39 PM  
WordyGrrl:
I think Occupy Wall Street was intended to be a new version of the old-fashioned 70s-style "consciousness-raising" but it fell short because #1) people assumed it was meant to be a new political party (it wasn't), and #2) it scared enough target groups (Wall Street, etc.) that they pulled out all the stops in getting it shut down (shipping the homeless to OWS rallies, siccing the police to tear gas them, inventing stories of rape/murder/drug use/hippie-like activity, etc.).

I'd very much like to see OWS 2: Electric Boogaloo -- this time with the intention of becoming a political party, rather than just "an airing of the grievances."


The issue I found with Occupy was that they didn't really communicate their goal or ideals early on when the media was interested. That left most of America scratching their heads at it. The head cracking came later, but at the beginning, no one really had a clue what was going on. Add to that the fact that everyone would talk to the press and you'd get radically different stories from different journalists who talked to different people.

Guy 1 would go "We want bankers held to their ears for their farkery!"
Guy 2 would go "We want a socialist utopia!"
Guy 3 would go "I want the government to give me every square dollar it makes!"
Guy 4 would go "America's too stupid to understand what we are doing here. That's why WE have gotta do it!"

So if you went to research what the heck was going on and why you cared, you would get confused. If you just heard it from one news source, you'd have a 25% chance of going "YEAH!" 50% chance of going "Wow. They are crazy and/or that will never happen." and a 25% chance of getting insulted and going "I think I'm smart....".

And THEN you had the Occupy movement getting crap from every direction after about two weeks, and finally were brought down via force. Some people I talk to, even now, still think Occupy was a front for a new socialist or communist movement and dismiss it as either misguided or not American. It's sad that a populist movement was ultimately destroyed by it's own lack of cohesive communication.
 
2013-08-03 10:49:19 PM  

WordyGrrl: zepillin: seadoo2006: Either there will be a return to focus on the working class/poor/middle class...or there will be revolt.

America doesn't have the balls to revolt. Not any more.

Thought occupy might actually turn into something.

May be last summer would be another summer of LOVE.

yeah, right

I think Occupy Wall Street was intended to be a new version of the old-fashioned 70s-style "consciousness-raising" but it fell short because #1) people assumed it was meant to be a new political party (it wasn't), and #2) it scared enough target groups (Wall Street, etc.) that they pulled out all the stops in getting it shut down (shipping the homeless to OWS rallies, siccing the police to tear gas them, inventing stories of rape/murder/drug use/hippie-like activity, etc.).

I'd very much like to see OWS 2: Electric Boogaloo -- this time with the intention of becoming a political party, rather than just "an airing of the grievances."


I thought the silent walk of shame was brilliant
I hoped it was a beginning, turned out it was the end
multitude's airing grievances can and have affected real changes in labor and war
I don't see it happening again here ever in a long long time, if at all
and effective third parties in America ?

I do not see not even the possibility
 
2013-08-03 10:56:45 PM  

miniflea: You know the science fiction trope that technology will reach a level where physical labor is all but eliminated and that society will become a sort of utopia where no one wants for anything and all are free to pursue the arts or some such?


You can live the dream of valueless labor today: don't learn to do anything anyone wants. Bingo! Personal utopia!

/aka homelessness
 
2013-08-03 10:58:08 PM  

Arsten: The issue I found with Occupy was that they didn't really communicate their goal or ideals early on when the media was interested.

The media was never interested beyond dismissing their grievances out of hand and painting them as willfully unemployed hippies engaging in rabble rousing. Instead of the media broadcasting commentary about the the nation's wealth being siphoned away to a handful of the population or the repeal of Glass-Steagall and the subsequent intermingling of investment and commercial banking which helped make the whole collapse possible we got talking heads pretending to be blind and deaf.


i.imgur.com
 
2013-08-03 11:03:09 PM  

Arsten: The issue I found with Occupy was that they didn't really communicate their goal or ideals early on when the media was interested. That left most of America scratching their heads at it.


They wanted to depower the financial elites.

Empowering and valuing individualism is not America's strong suit.
They just don't get it.
 
2013-08-03 11:04:38 PM  
generally speaking of course
 
2013-08-03 11:07:23 PM  

generallyso: Arsten: The issue I found with Occupy was that they didn't really communicate their goal or ideals early on when the media was interested.The media was never interested beyond dismissing their grievances out of hand and painting them as willfully unemployed hippies engaging in rabble rousing. Instead of the media broadcasting commentary about the the nation's wealth being siphoned away to a handful of the population or the repeal of Glass-Steagall and the subsequent intermingling of investment and commercial banking which helped make the whole collapse possible we got talking heads pretending to be blind and deaf.
[i.imgur.com image 550x508]


I get that. But what I'm saying is that they made it  incredibly easy to be sidelined by not having a uniform message about their goals. Like I illustrated above, their Step Up, Step Back program proved to make it easy to find someone who would rile up the populace with their views (and generating more revenue for the media reporting it) versus having a mouth piece that said "We want these points addressed!" and keeping it on topic.

It made it very easy for people to argue about what the CONTENT their message even was supposed to be versus an argument over how to react to the message. Most people in this country are working stiffs. They don't have time to go figure stuff like this out. It's why our politicians get away with so much.
 
2013-08-03 11:08:15 PM  

fatassbastard: Your second sentence defeats your own argument presented in your first. The money saved paid for the illness, or car repair, or your rent & food. Hardly "useless".


You'd be wrong. The money saved isn't enough to cover the illness, the car repair, extended unemployment, etc. You threw in that mundane stuff at the end to make it seem more reasonable, but it's not. Saving will not produce enough of a return to cover the big stuff. Again, it's not that they should have to make do with less, their wages have to increase.

fatassbastard: And bear in mind I only suggested $25/paycheck. Most of us with full time jobs could do more.

Let's take the $15.80/hr example Save 5% of your annual salary at 7.25% annual return (preferably in an IRA or 401(k) so you can't spend it before retirement) and in 30 years you'll have ~$175,000. Is that "useless" too?


You'd be wrong, AGAIN. That $15.80 gets eaten up very quickly. Rising rent, rising food and fuel costs, rising utilities, stagnant wages. Heaven forbid you have any children or other dependents. $175,000 in 30 years is less than useless if you need money *now*. Wages have to increase before people can save. They're spending all of their money just trying to get by, and it's still not enough. A payoff in 30 years is meaningless if you can't make ends meet in the present.
 
2013-08-03 11:09:10 PM  
Their goal was four or six million in the streets saying "We're not gonna take it"
Never did and never will.

Silence is Golden
 
2013-08-03 11:12:04 PM  

Arsten: The issue I found with Occupy was that they didn't really communicate their goal or ideals early on when the media was interested. That left most of America scratching their heads at it. The head cracking came later, but at the beginning, no one really had a clue what was going on. Add to that the fact that everyone would talk to the press and you'd get radically different stories from different journalists who talked to different people.

Guy 1 would go "We want bankers held to their ears for their farkery!"
Guy 2 would go "We want a socialist utopia!"
Guy 3 would go "I want the government to give me every square dollar it makes!"
Guy 4 would go "America's too stupid to understand what we are doing here. That's why WE have gotta do it!"

So if you went to research what the heck was going on and why you cared, you would get confused. If you just heard it from one news source, you'd have a 25% chance of going "YEAH!" 50% chance of going "Wow. They are crazy and/or that will never happen." and a 25% chance of getting insulted and going "I think I'm smart....".

And THEN you had the Occupy movement getting crap from every direction after about two weeks, and finally were brought down via force. Some people I talk to, even now, still think Occupy was a front for a new socialist or communist movement and dismiss it as either misguided or not American. It's sad that a populist movement was ultimately destroyed by it's own lack of cohesive communication.


My understanding is that OWS was, by and large, founded by anarchists who were very very anti-organizational and anti-hierarchy.  So the lack of cohesive communication was a feature, not a bug. They eschewed hierarchy and formal leadership as a matter of principle.   (See David Graeber's writings on OWS)
 
2013-08-03 11:14:54 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Amos Quito: Are you starting to catch a glimpse? Or is this too much information for one evening?

Your scenario is nice, too bad it's not based in anything but textbook reality. In actual reality you ignore far too much and put too much blame on the "other". As I mentioned with making cloth, old equipment is not a good thing. I remember when they showed a textile mill in North Carolina lamenting how it shut down, it had equipment from the 1910s and 20s inside. How on God's earth did they ever expect to stay in business when they had equipment so old? Equipment from the 60s would've allowed far greater production at the same cost. Equipment from the 80s would've allowed for greater production still at the same cost. If you can't bother to update your equipment at least once every couple decades, you can't complain when someone does the same thing for less. You could do it for less but you refuse to spend the money to do so.



No, You're not "getting" it.

They DID upgrade their machinery. They just deployed that new equipment in a "manufacturing friendly" country. And they made huge profits by so doing.


WhyteRaven74: Go ahead blame the lack of isolationist trade policy, truth of the matter is, it's the people in charge that screwed things up. Had GM listened to Delorean and Ford to Iaccoca, there'd be no talk today about their difficulties in the 80s, they would've avoided them all together. Just as the textile would have been just fine had they bothered to replace their production equipment every couple of decades. Oh as for electronics makers? That's where the profit margin thing comes in. You had people who refused to sacrifice a few percent in profit margin on top of refusing to give people what they want, so when others gave people what they wanted, they were super screwed.



Unions and environmental regulation, coupled with the general costs of operating in a nation with (comparatively) high wages / regulation across the board, the cost/benefit analysis quickly leads to offshore production.

Corporations are profit-driven, and the quest for profits drove the manufacturing off-shore.

You can entertain us with anecdotes about Iacocca and Delorian, and bad decisions that were made before you were born, but the bottom line is that manufacturing in the US is dead, and the credit for that, friend, is due much more to government policy than to market factors.

But tomorrow will be better.
 
2013-08-03 11:16:26 PM  
Of course its a tariff...however, Im just saying remove all subsidies from petro companies and then tax usage. Yes, jack up gas prices to reflect the real cost of using gas, like highways and bridges. We shouldnt quit importing crap from China to save US jobs. We shouldnt import that crap because at the end of the day its stupid to do so and not pay the real expense to do so. tinfoil-hat maggie: freakay: When we import from anywhere else in the world we are only able to so because of inexpensive fuel. The simple solution is to charge "environmental" taxes on petroleum fueled transportation. Items that are producec closer to home dont have to be shipped as far.As long as we keep subsidizing big oil there is no way in hell this will all change. Make people pay the true price for goods (including full cost of fuel, environmental cleanup of every refinery and toxic waste resulting from production of goods, and full cost of humane wages) and big businesses will quickly start building here.On another note...Detroit is dead, but most Asian auto makers now produce cars here. Why? Because its less expensive in the longrun.

I'll just say this....
How would you tax fuel bought over seas? I think the word you're looking for is tariffs
Also most of the new auto plants that have been built are given tax-free status for years(from the state they move to) as well as .those states are anti union so most workers make half or a quarter of what their union counterparts used to make.
 
2013-08-03 11:18:40 PM  

Ontos: How to not be a burger flipper:
Step one:  Put down the bong, moron.
Step two:   Stop playing video games 85% of your waking life
Step three:  Actually wear a clean, pressed shirt to a job interview and stop with the farking texting during the interview.
Step four:  Avoid neck tattoos
That should get you most of the way there.  You're on your own for the rest of it.


ohwaityou'rebeingseriousletmelaughevenharder.jpg
 
2013-08-03 11:29:37 PM  

fatassbastard: WhyteRaven74: funny how it's always up to the income earners to scratch by with a little less, and never up to those who pay the incomes to actually start paying decent incomes again. After all they're perfect, nothing they do is ever wrong, right?

Whether or not the "job creators" should be paying more (they probably should) is not at all the point I'm trying to make. All I'm saying is, if you save a little bit out of every paycheck, you'll be better prepared to face whatever comes in the future. And if people are paying less than they should, doesn't that make it even more important to save?

broadsword: Everytime I hear someone parroting about the stock market I remember a time where everyone believed Enron was rock solid.

So, your argument against saving in the broader stock market (the S&P 500 has returned an average of 9.3% since 1928,  before the Great Depression:  http://tinyurl.com/5jhm7) is to pick out one individual spectacular failure? That's like never flying because you saw one plane crash on TV.


At least the airline industry follows regulations... Enron / 2008 GFC were cases when everything got turned up on it's ass and no-one learnt any lessons from it.
 
2013-08-04 12:06:57 AM  

Amos Quito: Corporations are profit-driven, and the quest for profits drove the manufacturing off-shore.

You can entertain us with anecdotes about Iacocca and Delorian, and bad decisions that were made before you were born, but the bottom line is that manufacturing in the US is dead, and the credit for that, friend, is due much more to government policy than to market factors.


But the quest for profits which drove the manufacturing off-shore is explicitly a market factor...
 
2013-08-04 12:17:53 AM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Amos Quito: Corporations are profit-driven, and the quest for profits drove the manufacturing off-shore.

You can entertain us with anecdotes about Iacocca and Delorian, and bad decisions that were made before you were born, but the bottom line is that manufacturing in the US is dead, and the credit for that, friend, is due much more to government policy than to market factors.

But the quest for profits which drove the manufacturing off-shore is explicitly a market factor...



A "market factor" that was explicitly created by government intervention in the form of regulation (and the lack thereof in the form of malignant trade policies).

I ask you, was the interest of the American People served in these policies?


/Go ahead
//You can answer honestly
///This is 2013


//*/ It'll be pretty farking obvious if you don't answer honestly
 
2013-08-04 12:27:50 AM  

Amos Quito: the bottom line is that manufacturing in the US is dead, and the credit for that, friend, is due much more to government policy than to market factors


Dead?  I think you're overstating it a bit.  US manufacturing was #1 in the world until 2010, when we were overtaken by China.  Now we're #2 in the world.  (source)  There are two reasons for this:

1)  There are 1.3 billion Chinese.  This fact alone should put them in the top spot by default.  The fact that it took them until 2010 to produce more than us, given THIS kind of manpower, is pretty pathetic.

2) Chinese labor is dirt cheap because they don't worry about things like paying a living wage, workplace safety, health care, pensions, retirement, or pollution.  The working conditions are so bad over there that most Americans would consider it slavery.  It's hard to compete with that, short of doing the same thing ourselves.

But you're right to say that government policy is screwing us by providing corporate incentives to move manufacturing overseas.  I don't think that's the entire problem though.
 
2013-08-04 12:38:21 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: mike_the_engineer: If flipping burgers is the only job skill you have, that's your own fault.

Not necessarily.


Possible exceptions:

1)  You are a teenager.
2)  You just moved here from a third world country.
3)  You are mentally handicapped.
 
2013-08-04 01:07:04 AM  

johnryan51: 15.80 an hr. Wow, I'm surprised that its that high. If that's the true # then its not to bad.


It's a blatant lie. You're out of your goddamned mind if you think there's a job in retail, waste management, or hospitality service paying even 10.00/hr.
 
2013-08-04 01:59:47 AM  

lousy screw: My questions are; was the economic structure that produced such a huge middle class in America a false one? Was it all a pyramid scheme that was destined to collapse? Is the very notion of a free economy without huge wealth disparities even practical on a scale as big as the American one? Or is a new model conceivable that would put a healthy percentage of Americans back to work at good wages, without raping the environment and putting lives at risk?


Is it possible to put Americans back to work without huge environmental costs? Not really. The entire point of America's economy after WW2 was cheap exploitation of foreign labor and capital. That foreign labor and capital isn't enough to prop up what we have now, so how could it be in the future? We don't have another continent to despoil and poison. The only thing left is exploiting ideas from our countrymen (good, mind you), but we have predicated that on a very bad educational foundation that hates creativity, so just how much is there left to exploit? How much more of a pound of flesh can we carve out of this rotten corpse?

It's a cluster fark on a global scale, and that's the best I can tell you. Tip your bartenders well, and pay your respects to farmers and truckers that bring the meat and veggies home. You'll see a lot more in the future because there are only so many mines and faculty positions open. That's the best case scenario, because it can easily devolve into global civil wars.

Maybe we'll wake up one day without a job to speak of among us and we collectively say "fark it all" and live a life that mother nature can support.
 
2013-08-04 02:20:45 AM  
Yep, and unfortunatly those in the Tech/IT world have fallen behind in working knowledge and are having difficulty in finding employment in their former fields. So they are left behind, stuck at lower wage employment, trying to hook any tech job that will get them back in the game. But it ain't easy with so many younger people with recent training that are filling up spots at a lower wage than older people might be looking for.
 
2013-08-04 02:40:37 AM  

8Fingers: Yep, and unfortunatly those in the Tech/IT world have fallen behind in working knowledge and are having difficulty in finding employment in their former fields. So they are left behind, stuck at lower wage employment, trying to hook any tech job that will get them back in the game. But it ain't easy with so many younger people with recent training that are filling up spots at a lower wage than older people might be looking for.


Nailed it (in regards to IT).
 
2013-08-04 02:59:40 AM  

Arsten: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Our nation is wealthier than it has ever been, but that wealth is being hoarded upwards. I don't blame the uber-wealthy by default...it's just that money attracts money. The more you have, the easier it is to earn more while doing less for it. This is why a progressive tax system is necessary. biatch about it all you want, but it's the only way.

I've been toying with the opposite idea, actually: Instead of progressive taxes for the rich (or, perhaps, in complement to them) and Instead of giving a mandatory wage rate ($9/hr), it may be better to increase the payroll tax burden on corporations that pay under Cost-Of-Living +$7,500 per year. Use the tax rate to basically elevate the cost of the employee until that basic COL+7.5K rate is met for their area, increase the tax percentage.

So if an area's cost of living is $20,000 and you are paying them $12/hr, you are giving them $24,960 gross, which is under $27,500. So a company's tax for that payroll would be the standard payroll tax plus (27,500-24,960) or $2,540. This would allow them to compete between areas in the US (XX is cheaper than YY location), but would make them pay a minimum either to the employee or to the government.

Part time would follow the same rule, but some percentage of COL and then add the 7,500 (say 55% of COL + 7,500?), which means that they can't just hire 40x 1Hour-Per-Week employees like some places try to do now to get around the new wage rules. It actively penalizes the employers for shenanigans with payroll positions and ensures a usable wage. If you want part-time (semi-retired, going to school, shooting up heroin) you can still make a decent rate, but it won't let you live alone.


Congratulations! You just made an insanely and needlessly complex tax system infinitely MORE complex, which I wasn't sure was even possible. Bravo.  Doing taxes for a company like Wal Mart would be almost completely impossible under your system. Not that they would pay the tax anyways. They would just hire lobbyists to legally bribe Congress to grant them loopholes big enough to drive a planet through to make sure that those taxes never got paid. I'm sorry, did I say bribe? I meant speech. They'll throw lots and lots of speech at Congress. Bribery is illegal and wrong. Everybody knows that. Your Supreme Court, however, has determined that money is speech and corporations are people. This wouldn't be companies bribing Congress, this would be people giving lots and lots and LOTS of speech to Congress. Until that changes, we're all screwed.
 
2013-08-04 03:51:11 AM  
Well come to obamanomics dipshiats, you voted him in you pays the price. How do you avoid the unaffordable care act? You make part time jobs, you won welcome to the rubble.
 
2013-08-04 04:06:52 AM  

vpb: Pray 4 Mojo: Yep. NY is spendy. It sucks that they won't let anybody move to a place that costs less. I think they made a movie about that.

Maybe theres a reason people live there?  I suspect things like public transportation have something to do with it.


Generous welfare benefits?
 
2013-08-04 04:14:21 AM  
It's all about corporate culture. Our nationwide corporate culture is one that collects wealth to the point that Scrooge himself blush yet extends no friendly gesture to the workers. Our nationwide corporate culture is one that whines incessantly about how it is so difficult to find qualified applicants yet at the same time despises training and demands years of experience for every posting. Our nationwide corporate culture is one that eschews long-term growth for short-term gains. Our nationwide corporate culture is one that axes loyal employees for the sake of a distant, mewling shareholder.

You're not part of the problem. You are the problem. You are our nationwide corporate culture. You define it. It's been said that we deserve the politicians we elect, but the wound runs deeper than that. We deserve the culture we allow.
 
2013-08-04 05:22:39 AM  

ReapTheChaos: "These jobs, which account for 33% of all private sector jobs, pay an average of $15.80 per hour."

$15.80 an hour is a pretty decent wage in most places. You wont live like a king, but you'll manage. The problem is people are spoiled. They think they need to drive a new car, have the best furnishings in their house, $80 a month cable Tv on their 50" flat screens, $200 cell phones with a $75 monthly plan and a slew of other crap that you can live without.

Hell, $15.80 an hour is more than I'm making.


I think the problem is that people thing they will have it as good as their boomer/yuppie parents, and that is not going to happen. That was mostly luck. Those times will not come back.
 
2013-08-04 05:46:29 AM  

xerge: ReapTheChaos: "These jobs, which account for 33% of all private sector jobs, pay an average of $15.80 per hour."

$15.80 an hour is a pretty decent wage in most places. You wont live like a king, but you'll manage. The problem is people are spoiled. They think they need to drive a new car, have the best furnishings in their house, $80 a month cable Tv on their 50" flat screens, $200 cell phones with a $75 monthly plan and a slew of other crap that you can live without.

Hell, $15.80 an hour is more than I'm making.

I think the problem is that people thing they will have it as good as their boomer/yuppie parents, and that is not going to happen. That was mostly luck. Those times will not come back.


I see it a slightly different way.

Seems to me the boomers think everyone after them have the same opportunities as boomers did.  And therefor if someone is flipping hamburgers then they must be failures.
 
2013-08-04 08:45:15 AM  

WhyteRaven74: Amos Quito: Are you starting to catch a glimpse? Or is this too much information for one evening?

Your scenario is nice, too bad it's not based in anything but textbook reality. In actual reality you ignore far too much and put too much blame on the "other". As I mentioned with making cloth, old equipment is not a good thing. I remember when they showed a textile mill in North Carolina lamenting how it shut down, it had equipment from the 1910s and 20s inside. How on God's earth did they ever expect to stay in business when they had equipment so old? Equipment from the 60s would've allowed far greater production at the same cost. Equipment from the 80s would've allowed for greater production still at the same cost. If you can't bother to update your equipment at least once every couple decades, you can't complain when someone does the same thing for less. You could do it for less but you refuse to spend the money to do so.

Way back in 1970 someone was making a ruckus that Chevy had to start focusing on quality more than anything else. Who was that person? John Delorean, head of the Chevy division. Yeah, THAT John Delorean. He actually got his way with the Vega until control of the production facility was turned over from Chevy itself to GM's production division. What's oft overlooked is the people working the assembly line were upset by this, that they were being told in effect to make bad cars. As for Delorean, he was so fed up with GM he quit. Then there's the story of Ford and how they were told time and again to start building not only quality cars but small fuel efficient cars that many people wanted and also something besides huge gas guzzling vans. Who was this person telling Ford to do this? Lee Iaccoca, the CEO of Ford. Ford refused to listen and when he wouldn't shut up about giving people what they actually want, he was fired. Yep, he was fired because he wouldn't stop pushing for Ford to build what people actually wanted.

Go ahead blame the lack of is ...


I work in an Indiana auto widget manufacturing (truth) so I'm getting a kick out of your arguments

In actual reality you're both right. Free Trade was a great idea on paper that IRL was taken shameless advantage of by the same greedy selfish people who wouldn't invest in their companies. Now those former Capital Investments Officers are CEO's and Directors with the attitude that a LOT now/once is better than a moderate amount every year for decades.

My widget company announced a 16 million $ profit one quarter but said they couldn't pay out our promised bonuses because that 16mil profit was really a loss because the stockholders wanted to make more than that
 
2013-08-04 08:47:06 AM  

mod3072: Part time would follow the same rule, but some percentage of COL and then add the 7,500 (say 55% of COL + 7,500?), which means that they can't just hire 40x 1Hour-Per-Week employees like some places try to do now to get around the new wage rules. It actively penalizes the employers for shenanigans with payroll positions and ensures a usable wage. If you want part-time (semi-retired, going to school, shooting up heroin) you can still make a decent rate, but it won't let you live alone.

Congratulations! You just made an insanely and needlessly complex tax system infinitely MORE complex, which I wasn't s ...


How is it needlessly complex? Companies pay based on the Cost of Living. Which is better than the minimum wage because it's calculated yearly. And a company pays whether you pay your staff $1 a year or the full COL+7500.

I say this because if you look at the MW over time, you'll see that in every single year since it's inception, the MW's value has fallen, except in years that Congress increased the MW. That's why the 7.25 (which wasn't a whole lot of value at that point, anyway) that was set in 2007 is no longer even survivable. The value of the dollar has changed. Instead of leaving the lowest workers to the wolves, how about we set a minimum that's not only survivable but sustainable?

This way, every year you can go "Cost of Living is X, therefor your wage is COL+7500". I'm sure that companies will bribe Congress based upon the want to keep their dollars, but just because more than one part of the system is messed up doesn't mean that you can't fix it one piece at a time.
 
2013-08-04 09:05:46 AM  
Majick Thise: I work in an Indiana auto widget manufacturing (truth) so I'm getting a kick out of your arguments

In actual reality you're both right. Free Trade was a great idea on paper that IRL was taken shameless advantage of by the same greedy selfish people who wouldn't invest in their companies. Now those former Capital Investments Officers are CEO's and Directors with the attitude that a LOT now/once is better than a moderate amount every year for decades.

My widget company announced a 16 million$ profitone quarter but saidthey couldn't pay out our promised bonuses because that 16mil profit wasreally a loss because the stockholders wanted to make more than that


Honestly, the Free Trade agreements were expected to send jobs overseas by much of the media I was watching during Bush Sr/Clinton's time at getting them negotiated and signed. It seemed that no one in power cared and in fact stated the opposite.

It's really all they do. They've long-since stopped bothering with reality. The stimulus checks that Bush Jr put out were sold as a way to help the economy, except that it did not. The bail outs of the car manufacturers and banks was sold to help the little guy....except it did not. The Green Energy subsidies were supposed to create more jobs than they killed from traditional energy, but they did not.

Now, while I'm not a magic purveyor of truth (And I have 20/20 hindsight which makes it easier to back-seat drive), the actual solutions were closer to:
A) Forgive the credit debts of ordinary Americans on unsecured loans and taxes (credit cards, student loans, IRS, state taxes, etc but NOT cars or houses) and forgive all value lost in the housing markets on the loans (Bought a home for $200,000 and now worth $100,000 and have $175,000 left on the loan? Congrats, you now have $100,000 left on the loan.) - Without this crushing debt, the average person could spend money on useless bullcrap again.

B) Let the banks and auto manufacturers fail. What usually happens when a company fails is other companies buy up it's assets. So Ford would have had it's plants and such bought by, say, Toyota. The banks would get purchased by other banks. - It wouldn't be all rosy, but now what happens in the economic crash next decade? We bail them out again?

C) Invest research money into green energy R&D until it was actually ready to hit the limelight and compete without subsidy with traditional energy. This way you don't really "create jobs" (500 research positions really isn't even a drop in the bucket) but you advance both the green platform and the ability for them to compete in the future.
 
2013-08-04 09:38:46 AM  

Arsten: The bail outs of the car manufacturers and banks was sold to help the little guy....except it did not


I still have a job directly because of the bailout. Our business is higher than it has ever been in 30 years at this location directly because of Cash for Clunkers and yet we laid off close to 300 in 2008 and cut the pay of those who stayed but have only hired back about 70. No pay raises or bonuses have been given. Despite the massive increase in productivity and lowered wage/benefit the cost cars didn't get any cheaper and my GM supplier discount did. Sigh..
 
2013-08-04 12:04:16 PM  
N-deutetrei: Arsten: And THEN you had the Occupy movement getting crap from every direction after about two weeks, and finally were brought down via force. Some people I talk to, even now, still think Occupy was a front for a new socialist or communist movement and dismiss it as either misguided or not American. It's sad that a populist movement was ultimately destroyed by it's own lack of cohesive communication.

My understanding is that OWS was, by and large, founded by anarchists who were very very anti-organizational and anti-hierarchy.  So the lack of cohesive communication was a feature, not a bug. They eschewed hierarchy and formal leadership as a matter of principle.   (See David Graeber's writings on OWS)


Remember when the police/thugs started wading into the crowds and demanding to know "Who are your leaders?" They thought that jailing the leaders would silence a group that was shining a bad light on Wall Street/corporations/the 1%, etc. OWS wasn't intended to be a "new populist political party" with leaders and a platform, etc. It was just a "consciousness-raising"/demonstration.

OWS definitely had some legitimate complaints. Why else would the wealthy and powerful of Wall Street and various corporations work so aggressively to shut them down by paying government forces (primarily police) and using the pro-corporate media to do it? The scary part is that too few Americans complained about government forces shutting down a group that exercised its right to peaceably assemble and air grievances.
 
2013-08-04 01:57:41 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Yep. NY is spendy. It sucks that they won't let anybody move to a place that costs less. I think they made a movie about that.


And another logic failure.
There are jobs that need doing in NYC.
The people that do those jobs need to be in NYC.
Unless there is a way to bend the laws of space-time, they can't be in Armpit, Wyoming and NYC at the same time.
So "moving to a place that costs less" is an answer without any thought put into it.
 
2013-08-04 02:08:53 PM  
As a ditch digger I am getting a kick out these.......

Seriously though, I am 35 year old college educated man that believed all the hype about high tech when I was getting out of high school. So did most of my friends. I got out of high tech about 7 years ago and haven't looked back. I make more as a ditch digger then any of my cubicle dwelling friends and I am, I dare say happier.

The problem is a lot of people are afraid of labor jobs and the stigma that comes with it. Many people see ditch digging as lower then food service jobs. I have sort of embraced that with a sense of humor. I refer to myself as a french canadian albino black mexican with a speech impediment that makes me sound like an a englishman.

There are a lot of low / medium skill jobs out there that pay well, but they involve sweating and enduring the elements, and that isn't something educated white westerners do.
Most construction companies have lower educational requirements then Mc Job but pay twice the wage.

Had I known how rewarding construction and the trades were I would have skipped the whole college high tech thing and done it straight out of high school.
 
2013-08-04 02:20:09 PM  

PleaseHamletDon'tHurtEm: We still have music, movies, and microcode, though.

Right?


As someone who is rereading Snow Crash, I totally got a kick out of this reply.
 
2013-08-04 03:09:21 PM  

Arsten: mod3072: Part time would follow the same rule, but some percentage of COL and then add the 7,500 (say 55% of COL + 7,500?), which means that they can't just hire 40x 1Hour-Per-Week employees like some places try to do now to get around the new wage rules. It actively penalizes the employers for shenanigans with payroll positions and ensures a usable wage. If you want part-time (semi-retired, going to school, shooting up heroin) you can still make a decent rate, but it won't let you live alone.

Congratulations! You just made an insanely and needlessly complex tax system infinitely MORE complex, which I wasn't s ...

How is it needlessly complex? Companies pay based on the Cost of Living. Which is better than the minimum wage because it's calculated yearly. And a company pays whether you pay your staff $1 a year or the full COL+7500.

I say this because if you look at the MW over time, you'll see that in every single year since it's inception, the MW's value has fallen, except in years that Congress increased the MW. That's why the 7.25 (which wasn't a whole lot of value at that point, anyway) that was set in 2007 is no longer even survivable. The value of the dollar has changed. Instead of leaving the lowest workers to the wolves, how about we set a minimum that's not only survivable but sustainable?

This way, every year you can go "Cost of Living is X, therefor your wage is COL+7500". I'm sure that companies will bribe Congress based upon the want to keep their dollars, but just because more than one part of the system is messed up doesn't mean that you can't fix it one piece at a time.


It's complex because COL varies greatly from region to region, state to state, city to city and neighborhood to neighborhood. Not only that, but it's highly subjective and fluctuates from year to year and would need to be updated every year or every quarter. Because COL is so highly variable, a corporation like Wal Mart would have a different tax rate for every store. That's one company with potentially hundreds of not thousands of different tax rates, and those rates would change every time the COL calculation changes. Not only does that add a huge amount of complexity and cost to the tax system, it also greatly increases uncertainty. A company would never know from year-to-year what their tax liability was going to be. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding your proposal, that is.
 
2013-08-04 08:53:33 PM  

mod3072: It's complex because COL varies greatly from region to region, state to state, city to city and neighborhood to neighborhood. Not only that, but it's highly subjective and fluctuates from year to year and would need to be updated every year or every quarter. Because COL is so highly variable, a corporation like Wal Mart would have a different tax rate for every store. That'sone company with potentiallyhundreds of not thousands of different tax rates, and those rates would change every time the COL calculation changes. Not only does that add a huge amount of complexity and cost to the tax system, it also greatly increases uncertainty. A company would never know from year-to-year what their tax liability was going to be. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding your proposal, that is.


Well, first, it is complex in the fact that COL varies EVERYWHERE, but as long as you can generalize by Area Code, it's not that terrible (instead of going Gingerbread Lane has a COL of 25,000 and Gingerbread Place has a COL of 22,000). But those calculations are run yearly by the government and a bunch of private interests, already. It's not like we'd have to create a government agency of Costs of Living. And the COL would be based where your employer is, not where your own home is, so it's not like they'd have to carry more than one base wage per location, so it wouldn't even be terribly hard for businesses to keep up with it.

But, if you look at the current MW, we set the dollar/hour base and then anyone making MW gets squeezed by the value of the dollar until you go and set it, again. So it needs constant review, anyway. And I'd rather do a constant review that A) is already performed and B) is applicable to the place that business is conducted versus setting $9 and seeing people in Nebraska live like (white trash) kings while people in NYC lick the slime from garbage cans hoping to save $60 a month on grocery bills.
 
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