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(Yahoo)   Failure is an option, America. We have become a nation of hamburger flippers   (finance.yahoo.com) divider line 299
    More: Fail, Dan Alpert, Economic sector, losers  
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12752 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Aug 2013 at 2:53 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-03 06:40:40 PM

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: fatassbastard: If you saved a mere $50/month ($25/paycheck) over those 10 years and you invested it in the S&P 500 via an index fund or ETF, you would now have $8,883.78:

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/simple-savings-calculato r. aspx

So for $6000 ($50 * 120), I get a whopping return of $2883.78? I'M RICH! I'M MITT ROMNEY!


Yeah and that's assuming you've never had to dip in to that savings for a big insurance co-payment or a broken A/C or your car breaking down or some a$$hole backing in to it while doing an 18 point turn and driving off because fark you that's why or you landlord increasing your rent or your friend dies or gets married or or or...If all you can afford to save is $25 every 2 weeks, these little life nuisances are going to eat away at any savings real quick. When the question food/car/healthcare vs savings account, the immediate thing wins.
 
2013-08-03 06:43:11 PM

mod3072: here to help: You think they are the same? On some things sure. They both obey money masters. They both think of themselves before the people. But they are so different and so many OTHER ways that any thinking person with an ounce of human compassion don't even see the right wing as a viable alternative.

I don't think we are as far apart on this as it may seem. You just seem more willing to throw up your hands and support a party that you know does not have your best interests at heart. As long as both sides continue to support the major parties out of fear of the other side, nothing will ever change. I'm not saying that it's easy, or that there is a quick, simple solution. I'm just saying that voting for one side because you are terrified of the other is only going to perpetuate the problem. That's how the entrenched parties stay entrenched. Republicans convince their base that if they don't vote for them, the scary gays are going to take over and socialize our Muslim terrorist abortions. Or something. I don't know, it's mostly buzzwords. You adequately explained yourself how the Democrats keep the base voting for them. We need a viable third party and some comprehensive campaign finance reform. Easy to say and hard to do, I realize that. But if enough people get disenfranchised by the 2 party system, anything is possible. Not likely, but possible.

Capicheka? Now run along to your clever boys club meeting. Don't want to keep them waiting.

Typical. Treat any differing point of view as merit-less and childish. I've had fun arguing with you all, but it's finally dried up outside and my lawn isn't going to mow itself. Try not to fall off of your high horse and hurt yourself while I'm gone. I'll pop in later to catch up on the insults hurled my way, so feel free to let them fly.


So all the people voting Democrat to avoid become a third world theocracy should just stop voting until something better comes along? I don't think you've thought your cunning plan all the way through.

Yes. Something needs to happen but this is what we are stuck with for now. The republicans are fading. They will slowly lose more and more support if they continue on like this. Then the Dems will become the new right and there will be room for another party to step in and play the humanist role.

You really do sound young. Not saying that as an insult but yeah... that's young man's jibber jabba.

/old
 
2013-08-03 06:45:11 PM

mod3072: WhyteRaven74: mod3072: Keep cheerleading for the Dems instead of having a serious conversation about true political reform

thing is, the state of the economy and jobs is at the end of the day the doing of the private sector. And for many blaming the private sector for anything is a no go.

That's partially true, but public policy has a HUGE impact on the private sector. We can't force companies to create more jobs, but can craft, for example, tax and trade policies that don't encourage (or, ideally, that actively DIScourage) shipping good jobs overseas.


what's your definition of a 'good job'? making cheap toys and other doohickeys? companies only care about 1 thing and 1 thing only... and that is their profit margin. If you pass policies that are too restrictive and potentially constricting to their  bottom line, then they'll just pack up and move somewhere else recreating the very problem you want to avoid.
Or do you prefer to strongarm them into staying? then you've just created an authoritarian government that is antithesis to what everything America is all about.
 
2013-08-03 06:45:39 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: Meh, typo's be damned I started drinking early and well I'm sure I'll make my fair share : )


Prost! My drinking for the day has been accomplished. Now I must punish this tuna sandwich and dork out on some ST TNG.

Peace out, ya'll!

*drops mic*

*sh*ts on stage*

*ignites back pack jets*

*FWOOOOSH*
 
2013-08-03 06:52:03 PM

Goimir: ReapTheChaos: "These jobs, which account for 33% of all private sector jobs, pay an average of $15.80 per hour."

$15.80 an hour is a pretty decent wage in most places. You wont live like a king, but you'll manage. The problem is people are spoiled. They think they need to drive a new car, have the best furnishings in their house, $80 a month cable Tv on their 50" flat screens, $200 cell phones with a $75 monthly plan and a slew of other crap that you can live without.

Hell, $15.80 an hour is more than I'm making.


Let's make a budget here:

$15.80 an hour is $2,717.60 gross for a month at 40 hours a week

Equates to a take home of approximately $2,038.20

Now let's add in some expenses:
Rent:  $750
Household:  $433 ($100/wk for food, household, toiletries)
Fuel:  $100
Auto Insurance: $100
Health Insurance: $400
Utilities:  $100

That puts us at $1,883
Now you want to have the ability to actually have a life, OK

Phone+Internet: $75 ;yes, you could get by without internet and just having a phone, but you wouldn't be here then now would you
Lunch out once a week or going to the bar twice a month or going to see a ball game once a month or going to the symphony every other month: $50

Now we're up to $2,008, or $30 dollars left over to maintain the car and buy clothing and such.

Where can we pare this down.  Let's see, we could ditch the car if we lived in a more urban area.  So we can get rid of fuel and car insurance, but our rent would go up to $950, and we'd need to spend $75/mo on a transit pass.  That's a losing proposition.

We can move to a rural area, drop rent to $500/mo, but pay another $100/mo in fuel, $50 a month in utilities (those cheap places in rural areas are always poorly insulated and have crap appliances).  That does add a bit, but you're sacrificing 2 hrs a day, or 10 hours a week, or 43 hours a month of your life in commuting.  That's more than a week's worth of work for saving that money.  If you need to you can do it and work out on the plu ...


Like I said in my post I make less than that and my budget is no where near what you're suggesting and I own my own home. I realize cost of living differs from place to place but if you put some effort into it you can live comfortably on $32,000 a year.
 
2013-08-03 06:53:49 PM

kiyote: College may not be the best choice for everyone, but vocational training and certificates can take people far away from these low-end jobs. I bussed tables for 4 years in my early twenties for $4.25 an hour. Only after I put myself through a two year program did my career move anywhere.


I agree (and I teach at a college!), but the problem is that a lot of people have already bought in to the system and have their $20K in student loan debt, and it's eating away what little money they have to pay for additional training or making them leery to make another investment like that.

/ it's a trap!
 
2013-08-03 06:55:44 PM

ReapTheChaos: Like I said in my post I make less than that and my budget is no where near what you're suggesting and I own my own home. I realize cost of living differs from place to place but if you put some effort into it you can live comfortably on $32,000 a year.


Comfortably is subjective. The only way you can live "comfortably" is to have no debt, and be room mates with someone who can split costs. And not incur any emergency costs, like replacing an AC unit.
 
2013-08-03 06:58:36 PM
i.imgur.com

If flipping burgers is the only job skill you have, that's your own fault.
 
2013-08-03 07:00:12 PM

Majick Thise: Nabb1: I just hope this doesn't reflect poorly on Obama.

I blame Bush.


why wouldn't you.  all the liberals on here certainly do.  you know, he's been out of office almost six years now
 
2013-08-03 07:04:59 PM
"We Have Become a Nation of Hamburger Flippers": Dan Alpert Breaks Down
*gasp*

the Jobs Report
Boo!
 
2013-08-03 07:05:20 PM

hardinparamedic: ReapTheChaos: Like I said in my post I make less than that and my budget is no where near what you're suggesting and I own my own home. I realize cost of living differs from place to place but if you put some effort into it you can live comfortably on $32,000 a year.

Comfortably is subjective. The only way you can live "comfortably" is to have no debt, and be room mates with someone who can split costs. And not incur any emergency costs, like replacing an AC unit.


Well I am debt free but I don't have room mates unless you count my kids when they come home for a visit. Emergency costs are what savings are for, something people don't seem to understand how to do these days.
 
2013-08-03 07:09:05 PM

mike_the_engineer: [i.imgur.com image 400x600]

If flipping burgers is the only job skill you have, that's your own fault.


My geology professor last year was rocking a hairstyle just like that one.
I don't know what that adds to anything, I'm just sayin'.
 
2013-08-03 07:10:48 PM

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: So for $6000 ($50 * 120), I get a whopping return of $2883.78? I'M RICH! I'M MITT ROMNEY!


...which, as I mentioned previously, is an annualized return of ~7.25%, which is pretty good, especially considering you don't have to "manage" it, you just invest in index funds or ETFs.  And where did I say anything about being "rich"? Nice strawman...

Madbassist1: Also, LOL at the 6-8000 over 10 YEARS.


...which is 6-8000 more than you would have (NOTHING) if you didn't save anything, and you get that for only $25/paycheck.

N-deutetrei: Yeah and that's assuming you've never had to dip in to that savings for a big insurance co-payment or a broken A/C or your car breaking down...


At least you'd be able to pay for those things with your own money instead of putting it on your credit card, which would cost you an additional 12-18%/year (or more).

You can keep coming up with excuses to not save, and never have anything, and no bulwark whatsoever against the proverbial "rainy day", or you can make small sacrifices and begin to take control of your personal finanaces. Your choice, I guess.
 
2013-08-03 07:14:57 PM
Seventy percent service economy.
Seventy percent service economy.
Seventy percent service economy.
The rest is military-industrial.

Love it. Because this is what it is.
 
2013-08-03 07:24:41 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: here to help: mod3072: Wow, good job. You saw right through my clever ruse to shill for the Republican party by bashing the Republican party. I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Okay... I'll ignore what I perceived as an endorsement for the pubs. So aside from that you went to great lengths to tell us all how much we slobber over dem cock. The Farkers in general are totally brainwashed by the dems to march in lockstep and we are nothing but subserviant sheeple to the 0bamster.

The thing is... I'm here pretty much every day... even if I'm not posting. Even the libbiest libs on here don't do that. They have plenty of complaints and poor opinions about the current administration. These guys may be derp farmers but they aren't actually dumb. So even ignoring the fact it did indeed appear you were endorsing the republican party you were still using a common right wing tactic of making anyone who even THINKS of voting democratic as mindless sheep.

It simply is not true. The reality is most are not happy with that party but the other guys are indeed WAY worse. Like freaking nutsoid, sell us all into slavery, launch large scale global conflicts next WEEK kind of worse.

You think they are the same? On some things sure. They both obey money masters. They both think of themselves before the people. But they are so different and so many OTHER ways that any thinking person with an ounce of human compassion don't even see the right wing as a viable alternative.

It is insulting to say those people are blind and brainwashed. They just have no other choice.

Capicheka? Now run along to your clever boys club meeting. Don't want to keep them waiting.

So very true, and well said.
Also I seriously doubt most people that vote for Dems do so blindly. Does this country need political reform sure, but who's gonna do it? I'd like to see a true liberal party emerge but well that isn't happening anytime soon.
/Saying both side are bad has been a sorta code to try and get people to vote Republican for a long time.


I agree that people who vote for the party of Jim Crow do not do so blindly.
 
2013-08-03 07:30:37 PM

Amos Quito: Most of those that died did so because they couldn't compete with foreign dumping.


When you produce cloth on 60 year old machines and someone starts making it on new machines, it doesn't matter where they are, you're doomed unless you get new equipment.

When you're unwilling to give people what they want, it doesn't matter where a competitor is, they're going to eat your lunch. When you're unwilling to cut your profit margin while a competitor gladly goes with a lower one and makes what people want, you're not long for this world.
 
2013-08-03 07:34:00 PM
Benjimin_Dover:
I see the american education system has really benefited you.
/Weak troll is weak.
2/10
 
2013-08-03 07:36:09 PM
$15 is pretty damn good to me. I make $9.25.
 
2013-08-03 07:37:21 PM

WhyteRaven74: Amos Quito: Most of those that died did so because they couldn't compete with foreign dumping.

When you produce cloth on 60 year old machines and someone starts making it on new machines, it doesn't matter where they are, you're doomed unless you get new equipment.

When you're unwilling to give people what they want, it doesn't matter where a competitor is, they're going to eat your lunch. When you're unwilling to cut your profit margin while a competitor gladly goes with a lower one and makes what people want, you're not long for this world.


Well said, it used to be a rule of business to reinvest in the company etc. It goes to how feel about infrastructure.
 
2013-08-03 08:02:27 PM

ReapTheChaos: Like I said in my post I make less than that and my budget is no where near what you're suggesting and I own my own home. I realize cost of living differs from place to place but if you put some effort into it you can live comfortably on $32,000 a year.


You own your own home, and you make $32,000 a year.  This leads me to a few assumptions:

You had money for a downpayment
You managed to buy in when prices were reasonable during the correction OR
You bought your home in the 90s when you were making $30,000 a year

Let me take a hack at your budget:

Mortgage+taxes:  $300
Utilities:  $50 ;being a homeowner and making that little means you're eligible for assistance in making it energy efficient
Food/household:  $300 ;having a home means you can have a garden
Car insurance: $100 ;some things can't be helped
Fuel:  $100
Health insurance:  $400

So you're starting out at $1350 for your core living expenses.  Throw in phone/internet/cable and you're at $1450.

Also, in another comment you said "when your kids come to visit".  I'm assuming they're grown, which means it's highly likely that your housing expense is $100/mo, as you're only paying taxes at this point because you own the home outright.  It's also likely that you were making more (real) money 30 years ago, which enabled you to do things like "have money for a downpayment".  30 years ago, there was still a notion of this thing called "Job Security".  In my 15 years of working, I've had 14 jobs.  Seven of those companies are no longer in business.  Two laid off a bunch of people after I left but are still operating in a reduced capacity.  Most jobs were jobs I left after they refused to give me more money and I found more money elsewhere.  I've moved three times to try and make it work.  The last move the wife refused to follow me.

What does your actual budget look like?
 
2013-08-03 08:08:45 PM
How to not be a burger flipper:

Step one:  Put down the bong, moron.

Step two:   Stop playing video games 85% of your waking life

Step three:  Actually wear a clean, pressed shirt to a job interview and stop with the farking texting during the interview.

Step four:  Avoid neck tattoos

That should get you most of the way there.  You're on your own for the rest of it.
 
2013-08-03 08:12:44 PM

fatassbastard: You can keep coming up with excuses to not save, and never have anything, and no bulwark whatsoever against the proverbial "rainy day", or you can make small sacrifices and begin to take control of your personal finanaces


$6000 in 10 years is less than useless. That could be wiped out by one illness, one broken down car, one bought of unemployment, one of nearly any of the pitfalls of being poor.. Better to use that $25/paycheck and buy beer to make those 10 years suck less, because saving at that level isn't going to do jack or shiat to actually pay for anything. It's not going to give you control of your finances. To save, people actually need to make money, and with wages trending downwards, they're not.
 
2013-08-03 08:15:23 PM

hardinparamedic: Amos Quito: Just carry on under the delusion that your government is ultimately benevolent, there is a meaningful difference between the "Left" and the "Right", and that things will just keep getting better and better if we will ONLY allow those that govern unlimited power.

So far so good, right?

Nice reducto ad absurdum. I'm speaking specifically of you and YOUR agitprop there, Napoleon.



You mean, like, holding those elected to public office - sworn to uphold the Constitution, the Rule of Law, and to serve the interests of their constituents - ACCOUNTABLE for their actions while in said office?

That's just CRAZY talk, right there.


hardinparamedic: I don't carry on under any delusions that our current government isn't a corrupt and wasteful entity. But I also don't harbor delusions that people like you are any better than the previous monster.


"People like me"? Let's find out what kind of person hardinparamedic thinks I am...

hardinparamedic:  People who masturbate over the spilling of blood and revolution are the first to turn on those who bring them into power in the first place.


You're a hoot, BM. Reread that Jefferson quote above. On the whole, people are selfish, mentally lazy, and gullible. Any person or party that comes into power will become corrupt and tyrannical - nature of the beast. The point that Jefferson so eloquently made (and that zipped over your head) is that any people that wishes to remain "free" and maintain a government that effectively serves the interests of the public must keep said government on a damn short leash - they must be slapped around and called to account for their shenanigans, otherwise the people will soon find themselves overpowered, disorganized and unable to resist.

The reason that we are situation we are now (very bad and speeding towards way worse) is thanks to our selfishness, laziness, complacency, gullibility and outright stupidity. We have sat back and done nothing as our politicians and their "parties" have become increasingly corrupt, lawless, and oppressive - ceaselessly grabbing more and more power, election after election, Republican or Democrat, for generations. They work their backroom deals and sell us out - and we're stupid enough to fall for it because they slice us up like a pizza - dividing and distracting us over issues that are petty, if not manufactured outright.

If we ever *do* start to become irate and to stir, they sacrifice a political "goat" or two for show to placate our rage, then selectively toss out "candy" to lull us back into dullness, OR create a major distraction (war is always good) - anything to deflect attention from themselves. And it works - look at all of the shiat that's gone down over the past several decades - the unjust wars, the unconstitutional power-grabs, the destruction of our rights - and what has been the fate of those that have brought this on us? We either reelect them or they "retire" to become "board members" of the fat cat companies and organizations whose interests they served - at OUR expense - while in office.

Now, what were you saying?

hardinparamedic: This has been the rule for all of the leaders through history who have promised with violent revolution to save us from our tyrant masters should we put them in the halls of power. Especially those are willing to create an enemy to focus the vitriol and hatred of the masses upon as blame for their own miseries.


Yeah, as I was saying, it is the responsibility of the people to prevent asshats from getting into power - and to keep those in power from turning into asshats. The very nature of government makes it attractive to the WRONG kind of people - manipulative, lying, power-hungry (but charismatic) reprobates who are willing to tell any lie and make any promise to gain power, and strangely enough, these are just the kinds of people that WE ELECT to office.

The only thing that ever stands between a people and tyranny is perpetual vigilance and a demonstrated ability and willingness to resist. That's it.


hardinparamedic: Your history of creating blame-ridden boogymen based on race and creed should put you last to open your mouth up about it.


Oh, now you're off the deep end. You base your opinion of me not on what I have said, but on the mewlings of other dipshiats, or your funky imagination.

I'm going to have ask you for specific examples justifying the above accusations, and as you will be unable to provide said examples,  I'm guessing this conversation is over.

Ta ta!
 
2013-08-03 08:23:59 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: I'm guessing you're still in college, pretty young and really don't remember all the things that have happened and why over the years.


I wish! Unfortunately, you're off by more than a decade. I remember plenty that has happened over the years and why. The biggest lesson I've learned is that if there is a bill or policy that isn't some meaningless piece of populist fluffery and it has the support of both parties, you best grab your ankles and reach for the lube because you're about to get farked.
 
2013-08-03 08:28:43 PM

LawrencePerson: If America continues to advance toward a European-sized, crony-capitalist, cradle-to-grave welfare state, expect European levels of bankruptcy, unemployment, and demographic decline.

The future of America will look more and more like the present of Detroit and Greece.


Your blog sucks.
 
2013-08-03 08:35:11 PM

Ontos: How to not be a burger flipper:

Step one:  Put down the bong, moron.

Step two:   Stop playing video games 85% of your waking life

Step three:  Actually wear a clean, pressed shirt to a job interview and stop with the farking texting during the interview.

Step four:  Avoid neck tattoos

That should get you most of the way there.  You're on your own for the rest of it.


Implying that none of the people who work at fast food restaurants are people who have put down the bong and game controller, wore pressed shirts to their job interviews and didn't text during those interviews; and are qualified to work in other fields but can't find a job worth the trouble because the few openings require years of managerial experience but only pay entry-level wages.
 
2013-08-03 08:35:50 PM

mod3072: tinfoil-hat maggie: I'm guessing you're still in college, pretty young and really don't remember all the things that have happened and why over the years.

I wish! Unfortunately, you're off by more than a decade. I remember plenty that has happened over the years and why. The biggest lesson I've learned is that if there is a bill or policy that isn't some meaningless piece of populist fluffery and it has the support of both parties, you best grab your ankles and reach for the lube because you're about to get farked.


Have you ever heard of the good Dr. Leary? Well he's dead now. But his "turn on, tune in, and drop out" was sound advice. Think of Fahrenheit 451. The correct answer was just to drop out and do what you could do.
 
2013-08-03 08:38:54 PM

edmo: Soon we'll have the largest, most educated, well-armed class of poor people in the world.


haha, not bloody likely.  Our poor still dont compare with the poor of the rest of the world.  And our education is rapidly falling behind the rest of the world.  I'll give you "well armed".
 
2013-08-03 08:43:11 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: $6000 in 10 years is less than useless. That could be wiped out by one illness, one broken down car, one bought of unemployment, one of nearly any of the pitfalls of being poor.


Your second sentence defeats your own argument presented in your first. The money saved paid for the illness, or car repair, or your rent & food.  Hardly "useless".

And bear in mind I only suggested $25/paycheck. Most of us with full time jobs could do more.

Let's take the $15.80/hr example Save 5% of your annual salary at 7.25% annual return (preferably in an IRA or 401(k) so you can't spend it before retirement) and in 30 years you'll have ~$175,000. Is that "useless" too?

Again, your choice: make excuses and have nothing, or make small sacrifices and take more control of your own life.
 
2013-08-03 08:48:50 PM

SuperNinjaToad: mod3072: WhyteRaven74: mod3072: Keep cheerleading for the Dems instead of having a serious conversation about true political reform

thing is, the state of the economy and jobs is at the end of the day the doing of the private sector. And for many blaming the private sector for anything is a no go.

That's partially true, but public policy has a HUGE impact on the private sector. We can't force companies to create more jobs, but can craft, for example, tax and trade policies that don't encourage (or, ideally, that actively DIScourage) shipping good jobs overseas.

what's your definition of a 'good job'? making cheap toys and other doohickeys? companies only care about 1 thing and 1 thing only... and that is their profit margin. If you pass policies that are too restrictive and potentially constricting to their  bottom line, then they'll just pack up and move somewhere else recreating the very problem you want to avoid.
Or do you prefer to strongarm them into staying? then you've just created an authoritarian government that is antithesis to what everything America is all about.


What is YOUR definition of a 'good job'? Flipping burgers or running a cash register? A strong manufacturing sector, or "making cheap toys and doohickeys" as you call it, is a very important part of a vibrant economy. I never suggested "strong-arming" them to stay, but in many ways we have actively encouraged them to leave through different trade agreements, tax policies, etc. Give them a financial incentive to stay, and they will stay.
 
2013-08-03 08:51:11 PM

Frederick: edmo: Soon we'll have the largest, most educated, well-armed class of poor people in the world.

haha, not bloody likely.  Our poor still dont compare with the poor of the rest of the world.  And our education is rapidly falling behind the rest of the world.  I'll give you "well armed".


And add that fact to the part about them being underpaid/underemployed and well... I'm guessing from the amount of bank robberies I've heard of a lot of people are using said fire arms to increase their income.
/And no the answer isn't to ban firearms
 
2013-08-03 08:52:41 PM

Ontos: How to not be a burger flipper:

Step one:  Put down the bong, moron.

Step two:   Stop playing video games 85% of your waking life

Step three:  Actually wear a clean, pressed shirt to a job interview and stop with the farking texting during the interview.

Step four:  Avoid neck tattoos

That should get you most of the way there.  You're on your own for the rest of it.



The irony is that the folks that needs to better themselves on their own time are in fact on Fark all day complaining about not having enough money.

I guess everyone else is just trolling, or college students.
 
2013-08-03 08:58:38 PM

fatassbastard: Again, your choice: make excuses and have nothing, or make small sacrifices and take more control of your own life.


funny how it's always up to the income earners to scratch by with a little less, and never up to those who pay the incomes to actually start paying decent incomes again. After all they're perfect, nothing they do is ever wrong, right?
 
2013-08-03 09:07:06 PM
Our nation is wealthier than it has ever been, but that wealth is being hoarded upwards. I don't blame the uber-wealthy by default...it's just that money attracts money. The more you have, the easier it is to earn more while doing less for it. This is why a progressive tax system is necessary. biatch about it all you want, but it's the only way.
 
2013-08-03 09:07:54 PM

mike_the_engineer: If flipping burgers is the only job skill you have, that's your own fault.


Not necessarily.
 
2013-08-03 09:10:44 PM
"What good is industry if it be so unskillfully managed as not to return a living to everyone concerned? No question is more important than that of wages - most of the people of the country live on wages. The scale of their living - the rate of their wages - determines the prosperity of the country."

"If we can distribute high wages, then that money is going to be spent and it will serve to make storekeepers and distributors and manufacturers and workers in other lines more prosperous and their prosperity will be reflected in our sales. Country-wide high wages spell country-wide prosperity, provided, however, the higher wages are paid for higher production."

Quotes from noted pinko commie socialist Henry Ford.
 
2013-08-03 09:11:51 PM

Madbassist1: fatassbastard: Anyone can invest in the stock market successfully. Yes, ANYONE.

The rich and established have the edge, though. Its very well documented.

Also, LOL at the 6-8000 over 10 YEARS.


Assuming the stocks you back always perform. We'll never have another rainy day ever!

Everytime I hear someone parroting about the stock market I remember a time where everyone believed Enron was rock solid. To be honest, it was if you were rich enough to be involved in the background/shady stuff and cashed out before all the peons lost their retirement.
 
2013-08-03 09:17:24 PM

BullBearMS: MaudlinMutantMollusk: vpb: BunkyBrewman: We've been well aware that our entire economy is shifting to service based for at least a few decades now.

Yes, since we decided to shift it in that direction in the 80's.

As the manufacturing jobs were being moved overseas, coincidentally

/I always wondered how a country can have a gross national product once they've stopped actually producing anything

To be fair, quite a lot of them just moved across the border to Mexico.

The destruction of America's manufacturing jobs was hardly accidental and it was completely bipartisan.

Bush Senior began negotiation of the first of the free trade agreements that allowed the rich to move America's manufacturing jobs out of the United States without facing any sort of financial penalty when the finished goods were brought back inside the US for sale.

Clinton finished the negotiations and fought to have the treaty ratified as one of his very first actions in office. He blew a huge amount of political capital to get it past his own party due to huge union opposition.

Bought off representatives of both parties repeatedly promised that these treaties would mean more manufacturing jobs for Americans.

Clinton while signing the NAFTA bill stated: "...NAFTA means jobs. American jobs, and good-paying American jobs. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't support this agreement."

They lied.


The scariest thing is that Ross Perot, of all people was actually correct all those years ago!  I would NOT have thought so back then, but I guess that just because he was crazy did not mean he was wrong.
 
2013-08-03 09:21:16 PM

seadoo2006: Either there will be a return to focus on the working class/poor/middle class...or there will be revolt.


America doesn't have the balls to revolt. Not any more.

Thought occupy might actually turn into something.

May be last summer would be another summer of LOVE.

yeah, right
 
2013-08-03 09:21:25 PM

here to help: So all the people voting Democrat to avoid become a third world theocracy should just stop voting until something better comes along? I don't think you've thought your cunning plan all the way through.


I think it depends on whether you are talking state/local level or federal level. At the state level, yeah. Go ahead and vote for whichever party floats your boat. Your statehouse is much more likely to be full of "true believers". They may have even taken the job in an honest effort to make things "better". Better is completely subjective, of course. It might mean they want equal rights for the gay community, or it might mean they want to replace the science curriculum with bible study. Either way, they are more likely to achieve their goals at a state level. At the federal level, not so much. You don't see much real effort towards meaningful social reform at the federal level. There's no money it. Those people only care about 2 things - money and power. Oh sure, they huff and puff about social issues, but very little gets accomplished. Turning the US into a "third world theocracy" would be bad for business. If the Republicans stray too far off the path, the guys at the top will quickly remind them that the only true God is the almighty dollar, and they need to knock that shiat off because they are angering the Lord thy currency.

Yes. Something needs to happen but this is what we are stuck with for now. The republicans are fading. They will slowly lose more and more support if they continue on like this. Then the Dems will become the new right and there will be room for another party to step in and play the humanist role.

You really do sound young. Not saying that as an insult but yeah... that's young man's jibber jabba.

/old


I'm not that young. My oldest will be a sophomore this year. It just pisses me off that he won't have the same opportunities that I did. It also pisses me off that I've seen my and my family's quality of life erode, ever so slowly, over the last 2 decades as wages stagnate and the prices of vital goods and services like energy, food and healthcare soar. I'm tired of watching billionaires get bailed out while working peoples' retirements are cleaned out. I'm tired of people making excuses for either of the two parties responsible for that because, well, the other guys are even worse. Fark that. For federal office I vote third party. If there is no third party option, I vote anti-incumbant. (well, unless the challenger is a real nutter). Yeah, I'm pissing in the wind and I know it. At least I can have the tiny satisfaction of knowing that I didn't help feed the cycle. My state is ALWAYS going to go red in a landslide anyways, so it makes very little difference what I do.
 
2013-08-03 09:23:35 PM

WhyteRaven74: "What good is industry if it be so unskillfully managed as not to return a living to everyone concerned? No question is more important than that of wages - most of the people of the country live on wages. The scale of their living - the rate of their wages - determines the prosperity of the country."

"If we can distribute high wages, then that money is going to be spent and it will serve to make storekeepers and distributors and manufacturers and workers in other lines more prosperous and their prosperity will be reflected in our sales. Country-wide high wages spell country-wide prosperity, provided, however, the higher wages are paid for higher production."

Quotes from noted pinko commie socialist Henry Ford.


Yea, except he really was an ass when he tried to take break his company from investors. As well as on other things.

/Granted, he was right about those quotes.
//One day in the not too distant future I do see the country ( if it can get past the media) going nationalistic and embracing a form of isolationism.
///Granted the belief in globalization after the fall of the USSR seem's to have brought on lot's of nationalism.
 
2013-08-03 09:23:44 PM

dickfreckle: Those of you who live in cities now gentrifying, take a look around. What were once foundries are now condo buildings (I used to live in one). Most major cities have a something like a "warehouse district" that's now upscale eateries and, once again, condos. Those reasonably paying jobs didn't move to the suburbs. They just up and went.


Yeah, the good old days were great back when anyone could get a job carrying 120 pound bags of wheat off a train car and into a warehouse, and then two weeks later load it on a barge. And they could do that for 12 hours a day, six days a week, and 5 cents an hour.

Fifty guys in a modern terminal can move more goods than 10,000 guys combined in your warehouse utopia of yesteryear. And they probaly make more money than those 10,000 guys combined, too.
 
2013-08-03 09:34:35 PM

GORDON: agsfark: choo: Thanks, GOP

Ain't that the truth. How could they not find a candidate to beat the current Moron in
Chief?

The media wont let them win.  I knew 20 things about Sarah Palin's life, husband, kids, grandkids, the grandkids who were her actual kids, husband's job, husband's previous job, who her kids were dating, her wardrobe budget for the primaries, and part of her DNA and likelihood of trisomy occurring during a pregnancy.  None of that information was shared in a positive light.  She wasn't even running for president.

COMMUNITY ORGANIZER (a made-up term) was given more credence than someone who was an actual chief executive of a state.  It was said Obama had more experience.

On the other hand, I didn't even know if Biden had kids on election day.  All I know about him to this day is that he gaffe's about as much as Bush did but in a more adorable way, and The Onion likes him and keeps making endearing "Oh look he is washing his Trans Am on the White House lawn" jokes.

The baby of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson could run today, because he came back in time from a cloning vat, and he could claim he had perfect knowledge of the next 200 years of world history, and knew exactly what, and when, to do, and if they are on the Republican ticket they couldn't win.  The democrat candidate would just laugh and kill and eat an infant on live TV during primetime on all the networks and basic cable and still get 52% of the vote.  The media has done their jobs well.


PocketNinja, is that you?
 
2013-08-03 09:35:29 PM

WhyteRaven74: funny how it's always up to the income earners to scratch by with a little less, and never up to those who pay the incomes to actually start paying decent incomes again. After all they're perfect, nothing they do is ever wrong, right?


Whether or not the "job creators" should be paying more (they probably should) is not at all the point I'm trying to make. All I'm saying is, if you save a little bit out of every paycheck, you'll be better prepared to face whatever comes in the future. And if people are paying less than they should, doesn't that make it even more important to save?

broadsword: Everytime I hear someone parroting about the stock market I remember a time where everyone believed Enron was rock solid.


So, your argument against saving in the broader stock market (the S&P 500 has returned an average of 9.3% since 1928,  before the Great Depression:  http://tinyurl.com/5jhm7) is to pick out one individual spectacular failure? That's like never flying because you saw one plane crash on TV.
 
2013-08-03 09:37:27 PM

Goimir: You own your own home, and you make $32,000 a year.  This leads me to a few assumptions:


First off, I never said I made 32k, I said you can live on that amount. I make about 19k

You had money for a downpayment

Nope, made no down payment.

Let me take a hack at your budget:

Mortgage+taxes:  $300


Close enough.

Utilities:  $50 ;being a homeowner and making that little means you're eligible for assistance in making it energy efficient

Around $100 a month, I get no assistance and I'm not eligible for any that I know of.

Food/household:  $300 ;having a home means you can have a garden

I honestly don't pay much attention but that's probably close. I spend my time remodeling my house so some months it may be upwards of $1500, but the bare minimum is usually about $200. Also I have no garden.

Car insurance: $100 ;some things can't be helped

Liability only, about $40 a month.

Fuel:  $100

More like $25 a month, but I'm retired so I don't drive much. Before you make assumptions, I'm 49 and I live off my military retirement only.

Health insurance:  $400

My health plan would costs about $300 a year, but I only have the basic (free) coverage right now. Not that it matters because I haven't been to a doctor in 9 years so I don't see a need at the moment.

So you're starting out at $1350 for your core living expenses.  Throw in phone/internet/cable and you're at $1450.

No cable, phone is pay as you go, costs me about $10 a month tops, internet is $35.

Also, in another comment you said "when your kids come to visit".  I'm assuming they're grown, which means it's highly likely that your housing expense is $100/mo, as you're only paying taxes at this point because you own the home outright.

Nope, I'm about 12 years into my mortgage right now.

It's also likely that you were making more (real) money 30 years ago, which enabled you to do things like "have money for a downpayment".

Nope, 30 years ago I was graduating high school. My first year in the military was 1984 and I made 12k (all pay included). My highest paying year would have been 2004 when I retired from the military and that was about 44k (again, all pay included). Keep in mind that I also paid between $250 - $900 in child support to two ex wives for a pretty good majority of those 20 years, so subtracting that I made about 33k at my highest point in my life.

like I said, you wont be in the lap of luxury but you can live on 32k, if not I highly suggest you move somewhere that has a lower cost of living because if you have any kind of marketable skills you can make 32k almost anywhere.
 
2013-08-03 09:38:45 PM

fatassbastard: Let's take the $15.80/hr example Save 5% of your annual salary at 7.25% annual return (preferably in an IRA or 401(k) so you can't spend it before retirement) and in 30 years you'll have ~$175,000. Is that "useless" too?


pretty much. in thirty years maybe three years somewhat comfortable living or
six or eight years of SS supplementation
 
2013-08-03 09:45:13 PM

MBrady: Majick Thise: Nabb1: I just hope this doesn't reflect poorly on Obama.

I blame Bush.

why wouldn't you.  all the liberals on here certainly do.  you know, he's been out of office almost six years now


I believe Amazon has a sense of humor on sale this week. You might look into getting one.
 
2013-08-03 09:46:05 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: except he really was an ass when he tried to take break his company from investors.


As for the investors, the Dodge brothers. Henry was not exactly thrilled Ford dividends were going into the pockets of two men who were seeking to compete with him. To be fair, given the circumstances I can't exactly blame him for being so irked.
 
2013-08-03 09:46:35 PM

WhyteRaven74: fatassbastard: Again, your choice: make excuses and have nothing, or make small sacrifices and take more control of your own life.

funny how it's always up to the income earners to scratch by with a little less, and never up to those who pay the incomes to actually start paying decent incomes again. After all they're perfect, nothing they do is ever wrong, right?


Yeah, I keep seeing fatassbastard tell me to get by on less and to save.  What if I'm ALREADY getting by on less? What if I simply don't have a magical 5% of my income to save because it's completely accounted for, and then some, by bills and student loans and the BS that comes up.  And what if, when I do save, I lose my job or get sick and have to use that savings?  Oh, right, then I don't have any savings left.  Which means that I didn't make enough sacrifices and my life is out of control?  How much is enough sacrifice? How many roommates and how far do I need to walk to work and how little should I spend on food to be responsible enough for you?

It's not profligate spending like a drunken sailor that keeps many people from saving.  It's a new f'n muffler.  Or a pair of glasses to replace the 5 year old pair that finally cracked. Or a change in your insurance plan, where your monthly co-pay goes from $15 to $40.  But sure, I can do without something - who needs electricity, or gas, or insurance, or hell, healthcare! Just, you know, don't get sick, drive, or turn on the lights...
 
2013-08-03 09:47:25 PM

WhyteRaven74: Amos Quito: Most of those that died did so because they couldn't compete with foreign dumping.

When you produce cloth on 60 year old machines and someone starts making it on new machines, it doesn't matter where they are, you're doomed unless you get new equipment.

When you're unwilling to give people what they want, it doesn't matter where a competitor is, they're going to eat your lunch. When you're unwilling to cut your profit margin while a competitor gladly goes with a lower one and makes what people want, you're not long for this world.



You seem to be suffering under the delusion that the loss of the US' manufacturing and heavy industry was simply do to the fact that American companies were greedy, had no desire to innovate, and that they simply "disappeared" because people of foreign nations are less selfish, more innovative, less greedy, and just plain better at business.

Do you think the American companies that once produced goods here in the US simply disappeared? That those who ran and made fortunes from them simply faded away?

Imagine for a moment that you're a manufacturer of widgets here in the US, and have been for some time. You run a union shop, pay your employees well and offer decent benefits. Your equipment and processes are a bit dated, but you are still able to offer a quality product at a reasonable price, and customer loyalty is high.

Then a foreign competitor appears in the market - offering widgets that, while they may be of equal or lesser quality, are priced considerably cheaper than those you make - and they have snazzy bells and whistles that you have yet to offer. One reason that the new guy can offer such a competitive price is that he faces little or no tariffs or restrictions: He can import at will.

So you decide that it's time to make some changes: Do or die. You'll need to build entirely new facilities because not only is your equipment outdated, the EPA (and assorted agencies) are crawling all over your back because of the air pollution and waste water that is inherent in widget production. Also, the unions are crawling up your ass, demanding a 13% rise in wages, and numerous other benefits.

You have a fair amount of capital on hand and good access to credit - what do you do?

You have 2 options to consider:

Option 1. Stay in Indiana: That means building an entirely new facility that will meet not only your production goals, but will satisfy the new requirements ($$$) placed on you by the EPA and other regulatory bodies. Said facility will be built with union labor ($$$) under strict code enforcement AND will be manned by your UNION workforce. You'll be able to produce a comparable product, but can you compete?

Option 2. Move production overseas. You still have to build a new facility, but construction costs will be MUCH lower, and greasing a few palms will assure that there are no "permit hassles" to be faced. Also, there will be no EPA bureaucrats fussing about pollution, and NO UNIONS rabble rousing the workforce - who will be paid 25% of what your US employees make, have NO benefits, and expect no benefits. You'll be able to build your new plant at 1/3 the cost, employ people for 1/4 the cost, AND face a LOT less red tape from bureaucrats. You'll be able to produce a better product than you are today, sell it in the US at a very competitive price, and DOUBLE your profits - because THE US ALLOWS FOREIGN MADE WIDGETS TO BE DUMPED ON THE MARKET WITH NO TARIFFS AND NO IMPORT RESTRICTIONS.

Now, what choice do you think a shrewd, savvy businessman would make? Indiana or China?

This is simple carrot-and-stick psychology: If you want to direct someone's behavior, provide incentives for them to do that which you want them to do, and disincentives for them to do that which you do not want them to do.

Those entities that once employed millions of US workers didn't simply vanish via attrition - they simply followed the path of least resistance, and moved their manufacturing facilities to profit-friendly locations - while largely retaining their market thanks to the sweet sweet DUMP ON US policies put in place by our traitorous "free trade" politicians.

Greed and competition didn't kill America's industrial base, seditious politicians did. We allowed countries to DUMP their products on us even as they enforced prohibitively high tariffs against US made goods.

Are you starting to catch a glimpse? Or is this too much information for one evening?
 
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