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(The Epoch Times)   Despite denials from the government, foreign investment is fleeing China because it's becoming too expensive for many manufacturers - with many taking their factories elsewhere   (theepochtimes.com) divider line 105
    More: Interesting, foreign investment, South China Morning Post, China's National Bureau of Statistics, Guangdong, manufacturers, value-added taxes  
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2270 clicks; posted to Business » on 02 Aug 2013 at 1:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-02 12:09:11 PM
That's why I never believed that claim that China would be the worlds biggest economy by 2050.  Their growth is based on cheap labor, which becomes less cheap as their economy develops and wages go up.
 
2013-08-02 12:24:28 PM
The Epoch Times isn't exactly a disinterested observer in this, you know.
 
2013-08-02 01:10:31 PM
And they will steal your prducts and make knockoffs of their own.
 
2013-08-02 01:14:20 PM
$4 gas makes shipping very costly.
 
2013-08-02 01:32:23 PM

Pick13: $4 gas makes shipping very costly.


Not if they signed up for a Prime account.
 
2013-08-02 01:32:30 PM
Ask not for whom the Times pochs; it pochs for thee.
 
2013-08-02 01:35:42 PM
Damn unions
 
2013-08-02 01:51:42 PM
a lot of low tech production such as clothing started leaving china for Vietnam a couple of years ago.

china is also becoming prone to labor shortages in semi-skilled jobs
 
2013-08-02 01:52:54 PM
Given the products on the market, if China is too expensive, I don't even wanna see what we're going to get from someplace cheaper.  Labor is already the tiniest fraction of the cost of goods coming from there.  In order to save more than a penny or two *per shipping container*, they're going to have to come up with some funky alternative materials...

/seriously, goods by the ton hardly cost more than the raw materials
 
2013-08-02 02:04:57 PM
I thought "elsewhere" was "poorer areas of China".
 
2013-08-02 02:07:53 PM
After moving production to China from near Seattle about 10 years ago, a couple of years ago my brother's employer brought everything back to North Carolina; lock, stock and barrel. Industrial wages in China have reached more than $8/hr in many areas, and given the quality, IP and transport issues that add up to about $4/hr, it's simply cheaper to make their shiat here with non-union labor.
 
2013-08-02 02:08:59 PM
This has been coming for years.  Look now to Vietnam, Bangladesh, Indonesia, etc.

Also China has a housing bubble that will make ours look as bad as a stain on an apartment floor.
 
2013-08-02 02:12:29 PM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: This has been coming for years.  Look now to Vietnam, Bangladesh, Indonesia, etc.

Also China has a housing bubble that will make ours look as bad as a stain on an apartment floor.


And they're headed towards a population age crunch at least as bad as Japan's.  China's going to be interesting.
 
2013-08-02 02:13:43 PM

you have pee hands: The All-Powerful Atheismo: This has been coming for years.  Look now to Vietnam, Bangladesh, Indonesia, etc.

Also China has a housing bubble that will make ours look as bad as a stain on an apartment floor.

And they're headed towards a population age crunch at least as bad as Japan's.  China's going to be interesting.


Also they have pee hands.
 
2013-08-02 02:15:29 PM
That Laotian swamp land I picked up 20 years ago is finally gonna take off!
 
2013-08-02 02:15:50 PM
From what I understand, it is a deep-rooted cultural expectation in many areas of the world to be bribed.  A contractor offers to do a job at $10k USD, only on the expectation of another $10k under the table.  When confronted, the attitude presented is 'well of course I under-bid the project!  I had to get the contract, right?'  So businesses are fleeing an increasingly greedy and corrupt economic environment- big shocker.  Now here's the kicker; government and business masters are going to say "oh, this is bad, my income is falling.  I'd better undercut more to get the contracts and then increase the intensity of the pressure I exert on getting bribes, to compensate for this."
 
2013-08-02 02:16:57 PM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Also they have pee hands.


True, but not as bad as the folks who live next to the Ganges.
 
2013-08-02 02:23:13 PM
the whole police letting them lock their employers in their office until their demands are met probably doesn't help
 
2013-08-02 02:25:41 PM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: This has been coming for years.  Look now to Vietnam, Bangladesh, Indonesia, etc.

Also China has a housing bubble that will make ours look as bad as a stain on an apartment floor.


"Will"? Hell, Chenggong has 100,000+ brand new, freshly built apartments without tenants, entire blocks of empty skyscrapers, and so on, and that's just in one city - China has plenty of "ghost cities". It's not a "housing bubble" - it's an expanding housing universe, about ready to collapse in upon itself in a marketing compression so complete not even corruption can escape.
 
kab
2013-08-02 02:26:20 PM
No one in this thread will live to see it, but it will be a wonderful day when capitalism simply runs out of exploitable labor.  I'd love to see what winds up happening next.
 
2013-08-02 02:26:41 PM
once Asia plays out ...I guess, Africa maybe?

 Made in Djbouti!
 
jgi
2013-08-02 02:28:16 PM

onzmadi: once Asia plays out ...I guess, Africa maybe?

 Made in Djbouti!


America exploited Africans once before, I'm surprised we haven't already done it again.
 
2013-08-02 02:29:46 PM

kab: No one in this thread will live to see it, but it will be a wonderful day when capitalism simply runs out of exploitable labor.  I'd love to see what winds up happening next.


Droids
 
2013-08-02 02:35:58 PM

onzmadi: once Asia plays out ...I guess, Africa maybe?

 Made in Djbouti!


let's leave subby's mom out of this.
 
2013-08-02 02:43:18 PM

jgi: onzmadi: once Asia plays out ...I guess, Africa maybe?

 Made in Djbouti!

America exploited Africans once before, I'm surprised we haven't already done it again.


We very seriously exploited african americans, but you'd have to enlighten me on how we exploited africans. I think your going to find this task rather difficult.
 
2013-08-02 02:43:50 PM

onzmadi: once Asia plays out ...I guess, Africa maybe?

 Made in Djbouti!


Perhaps.. but the West has never seemed to be able to figure out Africa... and things usually go bad in a big way. The Chinese are also all over Africa trying to get their hunk of flesh. More than likely the next source of cheap labor will be us dumbass 'Merkins™
 
2013-08-02 02:45:13 PM

FormlessOne: "Will"? Hell, Chenggong has 100,000+ brand new, freshly built apartments without tenants, entire blocks of empty skyscrapers, and so on, and that's just in one city - China has plenty of "ghost cities". It's not a "housing bubble" - it's an expanding housing universe, about ready to collapse in upon itself in a marketing compression so complete not even corruption can escape.


and whats even more fun is that housing there is a major source of individual private investment.  people don't put their savings into the bank or stocks- they put them into a second or 3rd apartment. the new middle class that china is trying to create are completely boned when this crashes.

/also they've destroyed their environment to the point of near irreversability
 
jgi
2013-08-02 02:47:07 PM

dirkfunk: jgi: onzmadi: once Asia plays out ...I guess, Africa maybe?

 Made in Djbouti!

America exploited Africans once before, I'm surprised we haven't already done it again.

We very seriously exploited african americans, but you'd have to enlighten me on how we exploited africans. I think your going to find this task rather difficult.


Maybe I'm incorrect in this line of thought, so feel free to correct me, but before we kidnapped all the "African Americans" I believed they lived full-time in Africa, making them... Africans?
 
2013-08-02 02:48:09 PM

FormlessOne: The All-Powerful Atheismo: This has been coming for years.  Look now to Vietnam, Bangladesh, Indonesia, etc.

Also China has a housing bubble that will make ours look as bad as a stain on an apartment floor.

"Will"? Hell, Chenggong has 100,000+ brand new, freshly built apartments without tenants, entire blocks of empty skyscrapers, and so on, and that's just in one city - China has plenty of "ghost cities". It's not a "housing bubble" - it's an expanding housing universe, about ready to collapse in upon itself in a marketing compression so complete not even corruption can escape.


"Will" as in it hasn't collapsed yet, so yes I agree with what you said.
 
2013-08-02 02:53:10 PM

jgi: dirkfunk: jgi: onzmadi: once Asia plays out ...I guess, Africa maybe?

 Made in Djbouti!

America exploited Africans once before, I'm surprised we haven't already done it again.

We very seriously exploited african americans, but you'd have to enlighten me on how we exploited africans. I think your going to find this task rather difficult.

Maybe I'm incorrect in this line of thought, so feel free to correct me, but before we kidnapped all the "African Americans" I believed they lived full-time in Africa, making them... Africans?


I can't believe this had to be said.
 
2013-08-02 03:01:06 PM

kab: No one in this thread will live to see it, but it will be a wonderful day when capitalism simply runs out of exploitable labor.  I'd love to see what winds up happening next.


Constantly-shifting poverty zones.

Kinda like today.  Just...not today.

The entire world is being gamed.
 
2013-08-02 03:02:09 PM

dirkfunk: jgi: onzmadi: once Asia plays out ...I guess, Africa maybe?

 Made in Djbouti!

America exploited Africans once before, I'm surprised we haven't already done it again.

We very seriously exploited african americans, but you'd have to enlighten me on how we exploited africans. I think your going to find this task rather difficult.


wat
 
2013-08-02 03:02:53 PM

jgi: dirkfunk: jgi: onzmadi: once Asia plays out ...I guess, Africa maybe?

 Made in Djbouti!

America exploited Africans once before, I'm surprised we haven't already done it again.

We very seriously exploited african americans, but you'd have to enlighten me on how we exploited africans. I think your going to find this task rather difficult.

Maybe I'm incorrect in this line of thought, so feel free to correct me, but before we kidnapped all the "African Americans" I believed they lived full-time in Africa, making them... Africans?


Ohhh. You thought America did that? Last time I checked the USA was not part of Portugal, Spain or the Netherlands. Here's a hint, the international slave trade was very much over by 1776.
 
2013-08-02 03:03:14 PM

kab: No one in this thread will live to see it, but it will be a wonderful day when capitalism simply runs out of exploitable labor.  I'd love to see what winds up happening next.


That won't happen unless we get some serious population controls.  As the supply of labor increases to infinity, its price decreases to zero (i.e. slavery).  We've tried various methods to create artificial limits on supply but none of them have been completely successful.
 
2013-08-02 03:03:43 PM

graeth: Damn unions


This!

Organized labor is destroying the Chinese miracle. They need to decimate organized labor in Communist China.

/by decimate I mean the Roman meaning of the word. 1 out of every 10 workers made into instant organ donors with the bill for the bullet sent to their surviving relatives
/now that's bootstrappy
 
jgi
2013-08-02 03:11:50 PM

dirkfunk: jgi: dirkfunk: jgi: onzmadi: once Asia plays out ...I guess, Africa maybe?

 Made in Djbouti!

America exploited Africans once before, I'm surprised we haven't already done it again.

We very seriously exploited african americans, but you'd have to enlighten me on how we exploited africans. I think your going to find this task rather difficult.

Maybe I'm incorrect in this line of thought, so feel free to correct me, but before we kidnapped all the "African Americans" I believed they lived full-time in Africa, making them... Africans?

Ohhh. You thought America did that? Last time I checked the USA was not part of Portugal, Spain or the Netherlands. Here's a hint, the international slave trade was very much over by 1776.


Okay, buddy.

So if someone from Portugal kidnapped you and took you to China to work in slavery, are you now an American Chinese? Would you consider yourself American still?

Also, even if other countries brought Africans to America to work in slavery, that doesn't make America's hands clean. "No no no, those other assholes brought them here. Now they're Americans!"

You would have some semantic argument for the African Americans that were born here. But that first batch that were brought here, no matter by whom, were exploited Africans. Exploited by Americans.
 
2013-08-02 03:22:22 PM

FormlessOne: Also China has a housing bubble that will make ours look as bad as a stain on an apartment floor.

"Will"? Hell, Chenggong has 100,000+ brand new, freshly built apartments without tenants, entire blocks of empty skyscrapers, and so on, and that's just in one city - China has plenty of "ghost cities". It's not a "housing bubble" - it's an expanding housing universe, about ready to collapse in upon itself in a marketing compression so complete not even corruption can escape.


Any news articles you can point to about this?  I'd love to read up about it.  Seriously.
 
2013-08-02 03:23:48 PM

dirkfunk: Ohhh. You thought America did that? Last time I checked the USA was not part of Portugal, Spain or the Netherlands. Here's a hint, the international slave trade was very much over by 1776.


Oh, was it over in 1776? Is that why the South pursued the Three Fifths Compromise in 1787? Is that why America fought a civil war in the mid 1800's?
 
2013-08-02 03:35:11 PM

valkore: Any news articles you can point to about this? I'd love to read up about it. Seriously.


There's one on the front page right now:
http://www.fark.com/comments/7871761/Finally-a-Paris-with-no-Parisia ns
 
2013-08-02 03:35:42 PM

mainstreet62: Oh, was it over in 1776? Is that why the South pursued the Three Fifths Compromise in 1787? Is that why America fought a civil war in the mid 1800's?


the international slave *trade* was over (officially, smugglers still brought in new slaves illegally.) it didn't end slavery for anyone already enslaved or for their children.
 
2013-08-02 03:36:02 PM

dirkfunk: Here's a hint, the international slave trade was very much over by 1776.


Wrong. International slave trading was allowed, even constitutionally protected, until 1808.
 
2013-08-02 03:43:51 PM

Fireproof: Wrong. International slave trading was allowed, even constitutionally protected, until 1808


i had thought it was earlier than that, but wikipedia tells me you are correct. 1808 for the US, with denmark and england slightly earlier. Interesting that tom  jefferson actually led the legislature in virginia to ban importation in 1778 though, considering his personal views
 
2013-08-02 03:45:30 PM

jgi: dirkfunk: jgi: dirkfunk: jgi: onzmadi: once Asia plays out ...I guess, Africa maybe?

 Made in Djbouti!

America exploited Africans once before, I'm surprised we haven't already done it again.

We very seriously exploited african americans, but you'd have to enlighten me on how we exploited africans. I think your going to find this task rather difficult.

Maybe I'm incorrect in this line of thought, so feel free to correct me, but before we kidnapped all the "African Americans" I believed they lived full-time in Africa, making them... Africans?

Ohhh. You thought America did that? Last time I checked the USA was not part of Portugal, Spain or the Netherlands. Here's a hint, the international slave trade was very much over by 1776.

Okay, buddy......


I'm not your buddy, guy.

i149.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-02 03:46:47 PM

Kuroshin: Given the products on the market, if China is too expensive, I don't even wanna see what we're going to get from someplace cheaper.  Labor is already the tiniest fraction of the cost of goods coming from there.  In order to save more than a penny or two *per shipping container*, they're going to have to come up with some funky alternative materials...

/seriously, goods by the ton hardly cost more than the raw materials


Indonesia, Vietnam, and who knows, maybe Laos, Thailand and Cambodia after that? I just bought a new electric guitar that was built in Indonesia. Years ago, imported guitars came from Japan. Then Japan's guitars were too nice, and the manufacturing more expensive, so it all moved to South Korea. Now it's all going to Indonesia.

Eventually we'll have to solve the problem of paying people dick to make our consumer goods. I know there are more countries willing to undercut the other ones, but at some point there's gotta be some sort of reckoning.
 
2013-08-02 03:49:42 PM

verbaltoxin: Years ago, imported guitars came from Japan.


Similarly, Americans in the 1980s were panicked that Japan would replace the US as the dominant economic power before Korea undercut them.

Now the same thing appears to be happening with China, and Indonesia & Vietnam are doing the undercutting.
 
2013-08-02 03:55:04 PM
So... They're moving to Africa?
 
2013-08-02 04:00:18 PM
America (and Europeans) did a fairly good job exploiting Africa after the slave trade ended.

Mining deals that gave very little revenue to the state or even cause governments to lose money (government-promised power subsidies had a nifty way of more than cancelling out generated tax revenue)

US & Soviet governments funding rebels in the Angolan Civil War, which spills over into the DRC. Millions of people die.

US & European companies dumping toxic waste, as well as reselling "recycled" appliances & electronics there (ruining many attempts for Africans in developing their own industries)
 
2013-08-02 04:00:22 PM
So they're moving factories to India, Indonesia, and Nigeria now?

Thanks Jinping!
 
2013-08-02 04:01:28 PM
We've yanked back our tooling and sourced a domestic supplier for those parts.  Besides the continuous crappy quality, our Chinese manufacturer started switching up some of the raw materials, presumably for cheaper stuff, without telling us.  That's a big no-no.  Some of it got out into the field, causing parts to break and machines to go down.  The cost to replace all the suspected parts far outweighed anything we thought we were saving by getting the parts a little bit cheaper.
 
2013-08-02 04:04:42 PM

verbaltoxin: Kuroshin: Given the products on the market, if China is too expensive, I don't even wanna see what we're going to get from someplace cheaper.  Labor is already the tiniest fraction of the cost of goods coming from there.  In order to save more than a penny or two *per shipping container*, they're going to have to come up with some funky alternative materials...

/seriously, goods by the ton hardly cost more than the raw materials

Indonesia, Vietnam, and who knows, maybe Laos, Thailand and Cambodia after that? I just bought a new electric guitar that was built in Indonesia. Years ago, imported guitars came from Japan. Then Japan's guitars were too nice, and the manufacturing more expensive, so it all moved to South Korea. Now it's all going to Indonesia.

Eventually we'll have to solve the problem of paying people dick to make our consumer goods. I know there are more countries willing to undercut the other ones, but at some point there's gotta be some sort of reckoning.


After Indonesia and Vietnam (and maybe Thailand) though, you start running into the problem with the fact that there aren't enough workers to replace the Chinese labor.  China was relatively easy to operate in because you had hundreds of millions of workers who spoke (more or less) the same language; if you're going to replace them with workers from other Asian countries, you're going to have to familiarize yourself with probably two, three more languages; figure out different legal systems and cultural institutions; and otherwise stretch your lines of communication to the point where it would be almost impossible to manage effectively.

You mention Laos and Cambodia; those two countries together have about 20 million people, less than half the population of the Pearl River Delta in Southern China.  The entire continent of Africa has 1 billion people, less than the population of China (and that's before taking political stability into consideration).  Those workers, because the countries are so much poorer and less educated than the average Chinese, are also likely to be less productive.  To replace the manufacturing capacity of China is going to be a long, drawn-out, and likely costly process.
 
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