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(Opposing Views)   Judge rules that police in New York are under no duty to stop a madman from slicing you into fillets   (opposingviews.com ) divider line
    More: Asinine, Judges' Rules, New York, Margaret Chan, dereliction of duty, supreme court justices, Gothamist  
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8023 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jul 2013 at 10:24 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-01 06:17:12 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Peter von Nostrand:

So guns always protect people. Good point. Now that I've been reassured that guns always protect people, I say arm everyone, everywhere. In fact, I'd bet that there hasn't been one crime committed in Oklahoma since they passed open carry

At the very least, there should be a whole bunch of dead criminals lying around, no longer able to prey on the weak and hapless!


There would be, but criminals are looking for victims. Someone openly carrying a firearm isn't a victim, that's an adversary.

You think when some dirt bag knocks over a liquor store or 7-11 he's thinking, "I hope that clerk sees me coming in and has a chance to get to a gun. I'd love to get into a shoot out!"
 
2013-08-01 06:45:57 AM  

Xai: If guns were available to all, he would have had a gun. How many people would be dead now if he had?


Probably just two, because after he sucker-shot the first random person, everyone else, who would also be armed in your scenario, would have shot him.
 
2013-08-01 07:36:43 AM  

FedExPope: Smackledorfer: I love the cop derp brigade around here.

Cops move with caution: how dare they, they should have blindly chased just in case the bad guy took action before they were in a good position.

Cops charge after armed man with hostage into an apt and hostage dies: how dare they! They should have let the hostage get dragged out the rear of the apt where the criminal could kill her and possibly more later.

There are a lot of situations I criticize law enforcement, but watching the farkers apply their imaginary video game tactics with hindsight to every siituation gone awry is hillarious.

You serious? It's two cops armed with guns vs. one guy with a knife. You don't need crazy "video game tactics" to see how that should have played out.

1) Guy with knife tries to break into conductor booth with cops inside
2) Cops pull their guns and order man to drop the weapon
1 of 2 outcomes then: either he does and they arrest him or he doesn't and they shoot

Cops are more than willing to shoot innocent people for trying to be secure in their homes during farked up raids, but in an actual situation where there is clear danger and intent by another, they all of a sudden aren't trigger happy? This is another one of those times you should be criticizing them. Police don't need your white knighting, they have their thin blue line for that.


As I sarcastically, obliquely noted in my own response to Smackledorfer, if they had used their guns there would have been a backstop of A TRAIN CAR FULL OF CITIZENS.
 
2013-08-01 07:51:31 AM  

Lsherm: youknowme: One Bad Apple: Lsherm:


Son, there's an a art to trolling. .

Fixed

Care to try that one again?

The English language is lost on you...

Oh, and he got one...

Frankly, I thought he was too obvious.



I think he should get bonus points for getting someone with something so obvious.
Youknowme has probably fallen for this too:
i.huffpost.com
 
2013-08-01 08:17:04 AM  

Spanky McStupid: Kitty Genovese is a prime reason for carrying.
Old school crime victim.


That's actually largely a myth.  See the APA's breakdown of it here:
http://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2012/09/tall-tales.aspx

TLDR version: there were two attacks, not three; it took 10 minutes, not 37 minutes; multiple people called the police, not zero.

She was certainly brutally attacked and murdered, and the bystander effect is real, but Genovese's death isn't an example of it.
 
2013-08-01 08:20:44 AM  
This is a good thing. Their job is not to protect you. You do not want them "protecting" you. Their job is to show up after a crime; investigate and hopefully arrest the offender.
 
2013-08-01 08:23:44 AM  

Peter von Nostrand: Dimensio: Peter von Nostrand: Dimensio: The headline and the story cannot be accurate. I have been assured that civilians should not be permitted to carry firearms because they should be relying upon police for protection against attackers.

No gun can ever protect the perpetually paranoid and scared amongst us

Gun ban advocates rarely possess firearms.

Yes, it's the people that don't own guns and/or want some restrictions on them that are paranoid


This was actually the smartest thing you posted in this entire thread. In hindsight you probably should have stopped here.
 
2013-08-01 08:34:42 AM  

Gyrfalcon: But like I said, it makes enough sense in a CIVIL case to undermine a plaintiff's negligence case when HE is the one with the burden of proving they had a special burden to help him.


They are cops. Their entire JOB is to help people by arresting criminals. If that doesn't create a 'special burden', I don't know what does.

absent any specially created duty--like a specific call for help and a showing of immediate harm-

None of the guys victims called for help? The cops are so stupid they don't know being stabbed is harmful?

-the cops have no duty to act.

Then why have them? Really?

No, it makes zero sense to me either.

But like I say all the time, it doesn't matter what the facts are, it's what can be justified in a police report. And if I was writing the report, it would have said just about what I already posted: That they didn't actually see Lozito in danger


Wasn't it stated that the guy started stabbing 'as they [the cops] moved toward him'? Were they blinded?

nor did he actually request assistance ("Help, I'm being gutted alive!")

Um, I find that hard to believe. But even absent that, I'd think that seeing a guy stabbed is enough evidence that he needs help.

and although they did know the guy was the mad killer they were seeking, they did not have reason to believe he was causing IMMINENT danger to anyone on the train

Mad killer (your words, not mine), standing there with a knife raised == 'no danger'??? Cops shoot people for driving a truck kinda the same color as a wanted fugitive. They shoot people for holding a wallet. Or a set of keys. Or a candy bar. And a 'mad killer' with a knife raised doesn't meet the requirements??


I seriously don't see how they can excuse any of this.
 
2013-08-01 09:20:57 AM  

untaken_name: Peter von Nostrand: I'm not really sure what your point here is. I don't have a problem with gun ownership

You were framing the debate in such a way as to cast aspersions on gun owners while completely exonerating non-gun-owners. I was simply re-framing it in an opposite manner to show that your characterization could be easily countered.


If you go back to the initial post I was responding to I'm sure you'll realize that you're mistaken
 
2013-08-01 10:34:45 AM  

edmo: Give them some lip and see how fast they intervene to Taser your ass.


I thought this is exactly the situation that the cops needed Tasers for..

why did they not Taser the guy with the knife?
 
2013-08-01 11:03:25 AM  

Mikey1969: Bit'O'Gristle: The duties of a police officer are to protect and serve - unless they don't feel like it, apparently. A Manhattan Supreme Court Justice has ruled that the City of New York has no legal obligation to protect its citizens, even if armed police are present at the scene of a dangerous incident.

So if i read TFA right, the policemen locked themselves in another car when they saw the crazed knife wielding psycho and have no duty to protect citizens? Hmmmm..something is fishy here. We aren't getting the whole story, or the reporter is a liberal.

If we "weren't getting the whole story", then the judge would have dismissed the case for lack of merit or for insufficient evidence. Instead, he makes an excuse for the cops and tells the court that he is literally letting them off the hook for kit doing their jobs.

Seriously, you've got to learn to read between the lines. The very things the judge DIDN'T do give you all the data a smart person would need.

Hell, it's all a garden slug would need.

/Or an NYPD cop


'we have the full story'

'read between the lines, anyone smart does!'

Nice work there.
 
2013-08-01 12:05:11 PM  

petec: edmo: Give them some lip and see how fast they intervene to Taser your ass.

I thought this is exactly the situation that the cops needed Tasers for..

why did they not Taser the guy with the knife?


The man possessed a knife. Attempting to subdue him could have resulted in severe injury.
 
2013-08-01 12:35:59 PM  

starsrift: As I sarcastically, obliquely noted in my own response to Smackledorfer, if they had used their guns there would have been a backstop of A TRAIN CAR FULL OF CITIZENS.


So 360 degrees of citizens, then? I'm not sure you've ever actually SEEN a train.
 
2013-08-01 12:39:36 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: untaken_name: Peter von Nostrand: I'm not really sure what your point here is. I don't have a problem with gun ownership

You were framing the debate in such a way as to cast aspersions on gun owners while completely exonerating non-gun-owners. I was simply re-framing it in an opposite manner to show that your characterization could be easily countered.

If you go back to the initial post I was responding to I'm sure you'll realize that you're mistaken


So...you were not trying to be sarcastic there, you were actually in full agreement with <b>Dimensio</b>? Maybe I'm just cynical, but it really didn't come off that way.
 
2013-08-01 04:42:13 PM  

starsrift: FedExPope: Smackledorfer: I love the cop derp brigade around here.

Cops move with caution: how dare they, they should have blindly chased just in case the bad guy took action before they were in a good position.

Cops charge after armed man with hostage into an apt and hostage dies: how dare they! They should have let the hostage get dragged out the rear of the apt where the criminal could kill her and possibly more later.

There are a lot of situations I criticize law enforcement, but watching the farkers apply their imaginary video game tactics with hindsight to every siituation gone awry is hillarious.

You serious? It's two cops armed with guns vs. one guy with a knife. You don't need crazy "video game tactics" to see how that should have played out.

1) Guy with knife tries to break into conductor booth with cops inside
2) Cops pull their guns and order man to drop the weapon
1 of 2 outcomes then: either he does and they arrest him or he doesn't and they shoot

Cops are more than willing to shoot innocent people for trying to be secure in their homes during farked up raids, but in an actual situation where there is clear danger and intent by another, they all of a sudden aren't trigger happy? This is another one of those times you should be criticizing them. Police don't need your white knighting, they have their thin blue line for that.

As I sarcastically, obliquely noted in my own response to Smackledorfer, if they had used their guns there would have been a backstop of A TRAIN CAR FULL OF CITIZENS.


Do police no longer carry nightsticks?
 
2013-08-01 04:43:52 PM  

untaken_name: starsrift: As I sarcastically, obliquely noted in my own response to Smackledorfer, if they had used their guns there would have been a backstop of A TRAIN CAR FULL OF CITIZENS.

So 360 degrees of citizens, then? I'm not sure you've ever actually SEEN a train.


And neither have you, obviously.
 
2013-08-01 10:03:42 PM  

basemetal: What exactly is their duty then?

/to protect their own
//and serve themselves?


To protect the rich.
 
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